--- Day changed Fri Mar 28 2008
00:34 -!- fenn [n=pz@adsl-76-252-191-250.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
00:34 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: happy bunny day - day of the replicator!
00:34 -!- Topic set by fenn [] [Sun Mar 23 22:34:25 2008]
00:34 [Users #hplusroadmap]
00:34 [ Enki-2] [ epitron] [ fenn] 
00:34 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 3 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 3 normal]
00:34 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008
00:35 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 25 secs
01:02 -!- fenn_ [n=pz@adsl-75-62-115-69.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
01:02 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: happy bunny day - day of the replicator!
01:02 -!- Topic set by fenn [] [Sun Mar 23 22:34:25 2008]
01:02 [Users #hplusroadmap]
01:02 [ Enki-2] [ epitron] [ fenn] [ fenn_] 
01:02 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 4 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 4 normal]
01:02 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008
01:03 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 29 secs
01:16 -!- fenn [n=pz@adsl-76-252-191-250.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
05:05 -!- You're now known as fenn
07:34 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@70.113.54.112] has joined #hplusroadmap
08:23 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@70.113.54.112] has quit ["Leaving."]
12:48 -!- fenn_ [n=pz@adsl-99-133-188-140.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
12:48 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: happy bunny day - day of the replicator!
12:48 -!- Topic set by fenn [] [Sun Mar 23 22:34:25 2008]
12:48 [Users #hplusroadmap]
12:48 [ Enki-2] [ epitron] [ fenn] [ fenn_] 
12:48 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 4 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 4 normal]
12:48 -!- [freenode-info] if you need to send private messages, please register: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg
12:49 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008
12:49 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 31 secs
13:15 -!- fenn [n=pz@adsl-75-62-115-69.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
17:12 -!- Enki-2 [n=weechat@c-71-234-190-248.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
17:18 -!- Enki-2 [n=weechat@c-71-234-190-248.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:20 -!- Enki-2 [n=weechat@c-71-234-190-248.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
17:26 -!- Enki-2 [n=weechat@c-71-234-190-248.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:28 -!- Enki-2 [n=weechat@c-71-234-190-248.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
17:44 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@70.113.54.112] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:46 < kanzure> fenn_: New idea. If you can't think of a solution off the top of your head, you are framing the problem incorrectly.
18:12 < kanzure> fenn_: So we have to decide if we want to go with the automated (open source) analytical toolchain methodology (with public 'access ports' for calibration before we accept results), plus your wiki idea at the same time. 
18:14 < kanzure> epitron: I was talking with some buddies in my cal 2 class today, it turns out that a significant percentage of them want eugenics, population control, and to kill off stupid people. And they quite literally believe this.
18:14 < kanzure> (obviously we need lots of people for *variation* and *viability*)
18:14 < epitron> hahhaha
18:14 < epitron> well it makes sense 
18:14 < epitron> those memes trickle down from the highest levels of society
18:14 < kanzure> I was genuinely freaked. I used to want to kill stupid people too, but that was only because I was 11 and angry ;)
18:14 < epitron> yeah
18:15 < epitron> it's a tricky meme though because it sticks
18:15 < kanzure> yes
18:15 < epitron> think about it
18:15 < kanzure> it's quite deceptive
18:15 < epitron> i guess you have :)
18:15 < kanzure> you think it solves the problem
18:15 < kanzure> but then you realize it doesn't
18:15 < kanzure> because you are shooting yourself in the foot
18:15 < epitron> exactly
18:15 < kanzure> I am not saying that those people are the foot, but merely that they are in fact a part of our body
18:16 < epitron> haha
18:16 < epitron> the "body model of society"?
18:16 < kanzure> Perhaps :)
18:16 < epitron> that's the most arcane meme ever
18:16 < kanzure> epitron: I have been trying something interesting for the past half year
18:16 < epitron> i bet that's what the ruling class teach their children still
18:16 < kanzure> I've decided to purge the word "intelligence" from my working vocabulary
18:16 < epitron> interesting
18:16 < kanzure> indeed
18:16 < kanzure> so the same goes with stupidity
18:16 < epitron> how's it been working out?
18:16 < epitron> cool :)
18:16 < kanzure> hard to communicate with others
18:17 < kanzure> but it works out on my end
18:17 < epitron> you ever tried speaking E'?
18:17 < kanzure> erm, elojanban?
18:17 < kanzure> longbjan?
18:17 < kanzure> lonjan?
18:17 < epitron> no, english-prime
18:17 < kanzure> oh, not at all
18:17 < epitron> english without the verb "to be"
18:17 < kanzure> I was thinking of the created langs
18:17 < kanzure> ooh
18:17 < epitron> it's basically the way scientists speak
18:17 < epitron> :)
18:17 < epitron> "seems like" "similar to" etc
18:18 < epitron> instead of "is"
18:18 < kanzure> yes, I try writing that way from time to time
18:18 < epitron> it's difficult! :)
18:18 < epitron> ^
18:18 < epitron> definitely gets you to think more precisely though
18:19 < kanzure> the language peculiarities preclude cognizant preprocessing of pre- and post translational barriers in the removal of grammatical guiding elements, such as to be verbs, in thought identification processes; however, removing such preprocessing allows faster problem solving, and possibly quicker correct solution finding.
18:19 < kanzure> hurray for sounding scientific
18:20 < kanzure> Personally, I use Elizier Yudkowsky's stance on death: "PLEASE STOP DYING". 
18:20 < kanzure> but calling that out in a high school calculus class just doesn't work ;)
18:20 < kanzure> *Eliezer
18:21 < epitron> in what sense does he mean dying
18:21 < kanzure> as in the most terrible of senses: in that when you die, you opt to *burn* your information (your body), you opt to burry it away under the ground to rot and dissipate
18:21 < kanzure> as well as not doing enough science during your lifetime to help figure out how to stop aging (if possible)
18:22 < epitron> why would you yell that in calculus
18:22 < epitron> :)
18:22 < epitron> also, there is a reason for people to die. it's the same reason we have to keep deleting and reinstalling windows
18:22 < epitron> people's brains get cluttered
18:22 < kanzure> Again, note that the topic of conversation included population control, eugenics, sterilization, etc.
18:22 < kanzure> Then simply wipe their brains.
18:23 < epitron> why not also be reborn then?
18:23 < epitron> you get a fresh body :)
18:23 < epitron> i'm not saying our current way of life is optimal
18:23 < kanzure> note that I don't use Windows. :)
18:23 < epitron> i'm just saying there IS a reason for it
18:23 < epitron> exactly
18:23 < kanzure> Haven't had to reinstall my Linux installation in four years.
18:23 < epitron> we just need a better windows ;)
18:23 < epitron> a better organizational system
18:24 < kanzure> right, but we need to be around long enough to set it all up
18:24 < kanzure> and so far nobody has done this
18:24 < epitron> you ever read about that stragen phenomenon in physics where as soon as one generation of physicists dies, a whole bunch of new discoveries are made?
18:24 < kanzure> No, I didn't know I could read about it
18:24 < epitron> haha
18:24 < kanzure> but yes, I've observed as much
18:24 < epitron> well, some wise physicists talk about it
18:24 < epitron> i think feynman talked about it
18:24 < epitron> he probably heard it from bohr or something
18:25 < epitron> bohr was always stickin' it to the man
18:25 < kanzure> Feynman had a source for everything, just very well hidden
18:25 < epitron> sure
18:25 < kanzure> I've extracted as much information on Feynman as humanly possible,
18:25 < epitron> i know feynman pretty well :)
18:25 < kanzure> so I have a pretty good idea of how to replicate a Richard Feynman
18:25 < epitron> haha
18:25 < kanzure> such as the pattern-tilesets during infancy,
18:25 < epitron> he also liked to tell you how he did things
18:25 < kanzure> the encyclopedia sets, etc.
18:25 < epitron> he liked doing the trick, then telling you how it was done
18:26 < kanzure> yep
18:26 < kanzure> good method
18:26 < kanzure> Alright, I need to get to work
18:27 < kanzure> Can't figure out where I want to start this evening.
18:27 < epitron> haha
18:27 < epitron> start with what makes you happy
18:27 < kanzure> re: self-replication, I've been wondering if the method that fenn and I proposed will be of any good
18:27 < kanzure> since it's a very large, nearly hopeless effort IMO
18:27 < epitron> ah
18:27 < kanzure> don't know if you saw the logs, but basically we had the idea of using automated machinery to do it
18:27 < kanzure> and then letting people build this machinery and make measurements on all sorts of material
18:27 < epitron> well, reduce the scope of the problem then
18:27 < kanzure> and have them automatically submit data to a database
18:27 < epitron> implement a small bit
18:28 < epitron> implement something that others can build on
18:28 < kanzure> the problem though is that you can't just implement a small bit
18:28 < kanzure> yeah
18:28 < kanzure> so, let me explain
18:28 < epitron> well, everything is made of small bits :)
18:28 < epitron> ok
18:28 < kanzure> the thing is that you need to do an entire simulation with all of the different materials
18:28 < kanzure> there's something called a closed-dependency loop, a directed cyclical graph
18:28 < kanzure> in the sense that these materials, when combined in a certain way, can produce each other
18:28 < kanzure> obviously if you put sand in a bucket, you're not going to get a second bucket with sand in it
18:29 < kanzure> so that's not a closed-dependency-loop system :)
18:29 < kanzure> we were thinking of loading up tons of materials and systems into a massive database
18:29 < kanzure> and then use some graph-analysis software to find the loops
18:29 < kanzure> but that would require very explicit specifications on the interconnectedness of all of the parts
18:29 < kanzure> to the extent that each time you add a new part, you have to go through the entire database and say how it connects
18:29 < kanzure> or how the variables are related
18:30 < kanzure> or if there is any interface at all between two parts
18:30 < kanzure> so this is exponentially growing
18:30 < kanzure> *not* good
18:30 < kanzure> but how else are you going to be able to find the materials that can work together?
18:30 < kanzure> what's worse, you need exponential growth **done by human hand** since we don't have computers to do it
18:30 < kanzure> ah, maybe we can have a giant neurofarm of brains inserting the data
18:30 < kanzure> but the problem with this is that you need self-replication for giant neurofarms
18:30 < kanzure> (for the industrial infrastructure)
18:30 < kanzure> so we are back to square one
18:30 < kanzure> hehe
18:31 < kanzure> you see how that happens? ending right back where you started?
18:33 < epitron> hmm
18:34 < epitron> if it's an exponential problem, the universe is a good computer
18:34 < epitron> physical systems are incredibly interconnected and information dense
18:34 < epitron> o_O
18:35 < kanzure> yes,
18:35 < kanzure> Moshe Sipper cited a proof that some other guys came up with showing that self-replicators can be evolved
18:35 < kanzure> which is incredibly weird since evolution requires self-replication
18:35 < kanzure> or preservation of a code
18:36 < kanzure> I need to go get that ref, because that's pretty funky ;)
18:40 < kanzure> so either way we hit a hard problem though
18:40 < kanzure> a physical environment is not good -- you can't search for results
18:40 < kanzure> a digital simulation is not good -- we have no Grand Unified Theory, we can't magically install a database of millions of different materials and systems
18:40 < kanzure> therefore the problem is incorrectly framed
18:40 < kanzure> or it's the wrong problem when considering self-replication
18:44 < kanzure> maybe we should just pick a bunch of materials to work with and then constrain our search-space
18:44 < kanzure> i.e., deployal in a certain niche
18:45 < kanzure> this would constrain search space to specific minerals and then ways of working with those minerals
18:45 < kanzure> but then we still need to detail systems for working with those minerals
18:45 < kanzure> unless we come up with our own insights for working with different minerals
18:45 < kanzure> usually that requires specific testing and experimentation ... I wonder if it can be done from first principles, i.e. not knowing anything about the mineral in the first place
18:45 < kanzure> maybe there exists a book to detail this sort of minerology information
18:46 < kanzure> there can only exist so many different ways of processing materials, right?
18:46 < kanzure> perhaps I'll go through some of the minerals and figure out the manufacturing processes (perhaps a complementary page to my analytical instrumentation page)
18:46 < epitron> haha
18:46 < kanzure> and then make some broad generalizations and mention what features of the mineral necessitated the variations in the mining and processing machinery
18:47 < kanzure> already have a list of minerals - http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Elements (just hit an element and see a list)
18:50 < kanzure> Transformation of Ba-Al-Si precursors to celsian by high-temperature oxidation and annealing - all 4 versions »
18:50 < kanzure> HJ Schmutzler, KH Sandhage - Metallurgical and Materials Transactions B, 1995 - Springer
18:50 < kanzure> ... mineralizer-free processes that are capable of yielding celsian in modest ... final ceramic
18:50 < kanzure> phase, by mechanical alloying; (2) deformation processing to produce a ... 
18:50 < kanzure> Cited by 15 - Related Articles - Web Search - Find it at UT
18:50 < kanzure> yeah, Google Scholar seems to have lots of information on the minerals
18:50 < kanzure> tis good
18:52 < epitron> ok
18:52 < epitron> anyhow, if the project is too intractable, i'm sure you can reduce its scope somehow
18:52 < kanzure> "Introduction to Mineral Process Engineering" hurray
18:53 < epitron> just focus on a skeletal mathematical verison of a simplified self-replicator
18:53 < epitron> or something :)
18:53 < epitron> using virtual materials
18:53 < kanzure> Acidophiles in bioreactor mineral processing
18:53 < epitron> ones that don't exist
18:53 < kanzure> virtual materials requires a GUT (Grand Unified Material)
18:53 < kanzure> would require a massive physical framework and models extracted from many papers
18:53 < epitron> i mean, you make up a symmetric set of materials
18:53 < kanzure> many, many papers, the last 80 years of physics
18:53 < kanzure> hm
18:53 < kanzure> perhaps
18:53 < epitron> imaginary materials
18:53 < kanzure> but then how do you search for materials that satisfy those properties
18:54 < epitron> you create them that way ;)
18:54 < epitron> like creating a RSA keypair
18:54 < kanzure> material science --> material engineering ?
18:54 < epitron> i mean...
18:54 < epitron> abstract it more
18:54 < kanzure> so given a set of properties, engineer a material to satisfy the requirements
18:54 < epitron> no, you just say that "this material satisfies them"
18:55 < epitron> and model what happens if that imaginary material exists
18:55 < epitron> it's like a thought experiment
18:55 < kanzure> right
18:55 < kanzure> but then you need to implement it
18:55 < kanzure> and you need to be able to make the material
18:55 < kanzure> or find it
18:55 < epitron> ok
18:56 < epitron> what if you made a universe that made it easy to make self-replicators
18:56 < kanzure> huh?
18:56 < kanzure> make it in *our world*
18:56 < epitron> a universe that you could simulate really easily
18:56 < epitron> say, remove a dimension
18:56 < kanzure> I understand the imaginary/virtual materials idea
18:56 < epitron> and certain laws of physics
18:56 < kanzure> and it is a good idea of course
18:56 < kanzure> and that's what we are doing anyway
18:56 < epitron> alright :)
18:56 < kanzure> but I am saying that there is a divide between our simulations
18:56 < kanzure> and reality
18:56 < kanzure> in that if we did come up with something that worked in a simulation
18:56 < kanzure> with those "virtual materials" that gave some specs for the materials
18:56 < epitron> yeah, because reality requries that you have terraflop computers
18:56 < kanzure> we can't easily correlate those to materials in our world
18:56 < kanzure> no
18:57 < kanzure> that's bullshit
18:57 < epitron> what? :)
18:57 < kanzure> look, let's say that you have sets A, B, C, D on your computer
18:57 < kanzure> and you have a collection of balls in a bag
18:57 < kanzure> how do you correlate A-D and 1-4 (balls) together ?
18:57 < kanzure> you have to have some way to have a one-to-one correspondence
18:57 < kanzure> and nobody says that you have those specific balls
18:57 < kanzure> or even know of their existence
18:57 < epitron> hmmm
18:57 < kanzure> and even if you assumed they did exist, how would you find that ? given your simulation of sets A-D? ;)
18:58 < kanzure> thus, materials engineering
18:58 < epitron> this is getting to abstract
18:58 < kanzure> *or* material restriction (as I mentioned above)
18:58 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Materials_engineering
18:58 < epitron> i've actually just been acting like a rorshach blot, saying vague things because i don't knwo what you're talking about ;)
18:58 < epitron> seeing what sticks
18:58 < kanzure> then just ask questions
18:58 < epitron> haaha
18:58 < kanzure> indeed
18:58 < epitron> i don't wanna know
18:58 < kanzure> that's how I work with programming somehow
18:58 < kanzure> *sometimes
18:58 < epitron> not right now
18:58 < kanzure> rubber ducky method
18:58 < kanzure> ask somebody else to try explaining what I am saying
18:58 < kanzure> and then they spit out something so terribly stupid
18:59 < kanzure> that it makes me smarter
18:59 < kanzure> hehe
18:59 < kanzure> oops
18:59 < kanzure> I mean, makes me find the solution
18:59 < kanzure> not smarter
18:59 < epitron> o snap u used the word
18:59 < epitron> btw, you seen muxtape.com?
18:59 < kanzure> no?
19:00 < epitron> it's pretty crazy
19:00 < kanzure> looks like a color chart
19:00 < epitron> giant pile of free music
19:00 < kanzure> what's a mixtape?
19:00 < kanzure> ooh
19:00 < kanzure> food, brb
19:00 < epitron> really big :)
19:00 < kanzure> Microbial mineral processing: The opportunities for genetic manipulation. - all 3 versions »
19:00 < kanzure> AA Nicolaidis - Journal of Chemical Technology and Biotechnology, 1987 - csa.com
19:00 < kanzure> Microbial mineral processing: The opportunities for genetic manipulation. AA Nicolaidis
19:00 < kanzure> Journal of Chemical Technology and Biotechnology 38:33, 167-186, 1987. ...
19:01 < kanzure> Hydrodynamics of Bubble-Mineral Particle Collisions
19:01 < kanzure> HJ Schulze - Mineral Processing and Extractive Metallurgy Review, 1989 - informaworld.com
19:01 < kanzure> haha
19:01 < kanzure> quite specific
19:19 -!- You're now known as fenn
19:21 < kanzure> Method for purification and production of saline minerals from trona
19:21 < kanzure> Hydrometallurgical extraction process 
19:21 < kanzure> Purification of kaolin clay by froth flotation using hydroxamate collectors
19:22 < kanzure> PURIFICATION OF ALUMINUM SULPHATE
19:22 < kanzure> PURIFICATION OF SAND
19:25 < kanzure> http://rruff.geo.arizona.edu/AMS/amcsd.php American mineralogist crystal structure database
19:27 < kanzure> Surface-mediated mineral development by bacteria
19:27 < kanzure> D Fortin, FG Ferris, TJ Beveridge - Reviews in Mineralogy and Geochemistry, 1997 - Mineral Soc America
19:30 < fenn> "detail systems"
19:30 < fenn> packages are really just code objects
19:31 < fenn> when i say [[human:power]] it refers to a class in a module
19:31 < fenn> that class inherits from the built-in "power" class
19:31 < kanzure> ah
19:31 < fenn> in this way you can add functionality for specifications that wouldn't exist without tedious enumeration of everything that could ever be done
19:31 < kanzure> ah
19:32 < kanzure> so we still have to do it by hand though
19:32 < kanzure> Steps toward interstellar silicate mineralogy. II. Study of Mg-Fe-silicate glasses of variable … - all 2 versions »
19:32 < kanzure> J Dorschner, B Begemann, T Henning, C Jaeger, H … - Astronomy and Astrophysics, 1995 - adsabs.harvard.edu
19:32 < kanzure> Title: Steps toward interstellar silicate mineralogy. II. ... 300, 503-520 (1995) ASTRONOMY
19:32 < kanzure> AND ASTROPHYSICS Steps toward interstellar silicate mineralogy II. ...
19:32 < fenn> for example, module "geartrain" would have a "backlash" property (and ways to define it)
19:32 < fenn> why are you giving me all these minerology links?
19:32 < kanzure> hm?
19:32 < kanzure> I'm doing some background research
19:33 < fenn> mineralogy* :)
19:34 < fenn> that still doesnt look right.. stupid mineralogists
19:35 < kanzure> no kidding
19:35 < kanzure> I am trying to find a good paper that reviews mineral engineering techniques
19:35 < kanzure> and see if I can make up any generalizations
19:35 < kanzure> hehe: Reflectance spectroscopy and asteroid surface mineralogy - 1989
19:36 < fenn> kanzure: are you related to forrest bishop?
19:36 < kanzure> fenn: nope
19:36 < kanzure> but I have had others ask me the same question
19:36 < fenn> seen his page? iase.cc
19:36 < kanzure> IIRC, he does awesome electronics
19:36 < kanzure> and other h+ stuff
19:37 < kanzure> ah, right, space propulsion
19:37 < fenn> the 'bishop rings' of orion's arm were apparently his idea
19:38 < fenn> so anyway, small world, big deal
19:39 < kanzure> right
19:39 < kanzure> but still good stuff
19:39 < fenn> yep
19:40 < fenn> he did a lot of freitas' early illustrations
19:40 < kanzure> fenn: any ideas on how to search for mineralogy papers? I can't find anything in general, that reviews a wide range of mineral engineering techniques
19:40 < fenn> what specifically are you looking for? like how to get the stuff out of the ground and turn it into refined products?
19:41 < kanzure> refining
19:41 < kanzure> getting it out of the ground is just mechanical motion + scooping + drilling + etc.
19:41 < kanzure> big giant drills, hehe
19:41 < kanzure> plus exploding asteroids, collecting the materials and then melting them down
19:41 < kanzure> which is the refining process
19:42 < kanzure> hm, maybe I should look at the patent databases
19:43 < fenn> actually there are a wide variety of leaching methods
19:43 < kanzure> see patent 3886259 - process for mineral refining
19:43 < kanzure> leaching methods?
19:43 < kanzure> oh
19:43 < kanzure> good
19:43 < fenn> dissolve stuff while it's underground and pull it up
19:43 < fenn> generally nasty and bad for the environment
19:43 < kanzure> assume we don't have to deal with an environment though
19:43 < kanzure> i.e., asteroid mining
19:44 < fenn> bad for the ecosystem i mean
19:44 < fenn> there's always an environment
19:44 < kanzure> as for local testing, we've already been doing it for years so we know it works
19:47 < fenn> seeing as i know next to nothing about geology and earth-based mineral refining, i'll leave that one up to someone else
19:48 < fenn> maybe we can get a grad slave assigned to the project, once we reach critical mass :)
19:49 < fenn> who wrote all the asteroid mining and orbital algae farming pages?
19:51 < kanzure> me
20:00 < fenn> you have much to learn, young grasshopper :)
20:03 < fenn> there's a lot in common between analytical chemistry instruments and asteroid mining techniques
20:04 < fenn> dont underestimate the economy of solar reflectors
20:04 < kanzure> hm
20:04 < kanzure> I've realized that all that we really have to worry about is mineral purification at this point
20:04 < kanzure> analytical instrumentation is useful for determining how 'pure' a sample is
20:04 < kanzure> but as for purifying it, 
20:05 < kanzure> I'm still looking. 
20:05 < kanzure> somehow, no matter the method, you have to separate the elements
20:05 < fenn> a neat idea is to distribute 'laser beams' of purified minerals, straight out of the (bulk) mass spectrometer
20:05 < kanzure> how does that work?
20:05 < fenn> instead of packets, you just beam the atoms where you want them to end up
20:05 < kanzure> I know about mass spectrometry -- basically accelerate some ions and throw 'em at a recording utility
20:05 < kanzure> oh
20:06 < kanzure> you don't mean for purification
20:06 < fenn> since they're in free fall in an orbit, the only thing that can screw up the beam is solar wind
20:06 < kanzure> hehe
20:06 < kanzure> right, and we can probably set up a warning network for solar wind storms
20:06 < fenn> it's purification and distribution at the same time
20:07 < fenn> then at the other end, you have plates that get atoms condensing onto them, which you can scrape off (or presumably you can do something with the beam directly)
20:07 < kanzure> I don't see how that would work, can you describe how to do the mass spectrometer -> mineral laser -> purification already done method ?
20:07 < fenn> ok, take an asteroid
20:07 < fenn> heat it up really frickin hot, so that everything is a plasma
20:07 < kanzure> oh
20:08 < kanzure> in mass-spec you separate ions by charge
20:08 < fenn> now set up a voltage gradient, you get separation of mass vs charge ratio
20:08 < kanzure> so since everything should have a different charge, you're done
20:08 < kanzure> then what?
20:08 < fenn> then recombine the electrons with the beam so it doesn't spread out
20:08 < fenn> after focusing of course
20:08 < fenn> uh, that's the hard part :)
20:08 < kanzure> hm
20:09 < kanzure> well
20:09 < kanzure> there's always the idea of using a matter beam
20:09 < kanzure> i.e., BEC, but we havent' achieved BEC for molecules or large samples yet
20:09 < kanzure> and then we'd just shoot a beam of atoms out
20:09 < fenn> a beam of BEC's?
20:09 < kanzure> yep
20:09 < fenn> or a really long BEC?
20:09 < kanzure> either way
20:09 < kanzure> I guess we'd do separate BECs
20:09 < kanzure> for the different materials
20:10 < fenn> a really long BEC would probably have super-weird unexpected physics
20:10 < kanzure> once separated, the materials are all cooling down, right?
20:10 < fenn> they're superconductors right?
20:10 < kanzure> so we need to encapsulate them
20:10 < kanzure> BECs? Don't remember.
20:11 < kanzure> oh
20:11 < kanzure> originally my idea was to process each asteroid individually
20:11 < kanzure> and have the equipment attached to the asteroid
20:11 < kanzure> but it looks like mass-spec of asteroids might require larger equipment
20:11 < kanzure> as in, equipment in which the asteroids could be maneuvered into
20:11 < fenn> why's that?
20:11 < kanzure> because this way you can capture the materials as they are separated
20:11 < kanzure> just like in normal mass-spec
20:11 < fenn> you'd need a bag to keep all the dust bits from flying off and getting lost (and making a mess)
20:12 < kanzure> sure
20:12 < fenn> besides that it wouldnt really matter how big the asteroid is
20:12 < kanzure> hm
20:12 < fenn> there's a problem with the drilling concept -- how are you going to anchor into the asteroid?
20:12 < fenn> there's nothing to push against
20:12 < fenn> cant use suction cups because it's a vacuum
20:13 < kanzure> ideally, you start drilling in the direction opposite of its motion
20:13 < kanzure> you need to be able to withstand the impact force
20:13 < fenn> sticky tape might work if you can blow away dust - but there's static electricity messing up that idea
20:13 < kanzure> the impulse, I believe.
20:13 < kanzure> alternatively,
20:13 < kanzure> I was thinking of biofuels
20:13 < kanzure> just sprinkle the bacteria on the surface
20:14 < kanzure> and then come back to scoop them up
20:14 < kanzure> presumably they are metabolizing off of the minerals
20:14 < fenn> uh.. 
20:14 < kanzure> and then we need a way to melt them down and extract the metals
20:14 < kanzure> we can engineer bacteria to eat metal
20:14 < fenn> that seems more practical on mars or somewhere with water and an atmosphere
20:15 < kanzure> extremophiles can survive on an asteroid =)
20:15 < kanzure> that's the beauty of it
20:15 < fenn> survive, but can they flourish?
20:15 < fenn> i dont think they can
20:15 < fenn> not enough water, not enough mineral diversity
20:16 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Moontank (but not just for the moon)
20:16 < kanzure> ah, that's true, there's not enough resources 
20:16 < kanzure> you need to leave a package of nutrients
20:16 < kanzure> that can dispense extra nutrients as needed
20:16 < fenn> sure, if you can demonstrate a bacterial colony flourishing in a vacuum tank, i might believe it
20:16 < kanzure> but importantly, you can't let them get too greedy 
20:16 < kanzure> because it'd be genetically easier to just eat the minerals from the provisional tank
20:17 < fenn> if it were possible, then why dont we see bacteria in moon rock samples already? (earth meteors do hit the moon quite often)
20:17 < kanzure> meteors from earth hit the moon?
20:17 < kanzure> as in, rocks from earth break off and hit the moon?
20:18 < fenn> yes, after an asteroid hits earth
20:18 < kanzure> have we confirmed this by tracking such a rock?
20:18 < fenn> no, but we have meteors from mars on earth
20:18 < fenn> i dont really see the difference
20:19 < kanzure> perhaps there is something that can be done via engineering to make life more viable in such environments
20:19 < fenn> yes
20:19 < kanzure> I am pretty sure it's the resource diffusion problem
20:19 < kanzure> or availability problem
20:19 < kanzure> since you can't get nitrogen when your asteroid is just carbon heh
20:19 < fenn> i just dont think it's worth the extra complexity
20:20 < fenn> if all you want is pure elements
20:20 < kanzure> true
20:20 < kanzure> why not just mimic what the bacteria would do anyway
20:20 < fenn> just throw up a multi-km aluminum foil reflector
20:20 < kanzure> ?
20:20 < fenn> er, toss up
20:20 < kanzure> ?
20:20 < kanzure> but still, what would that do?
20:20 < fenn> well, it depends how you use it
20:20 < kanzure> sunlight reflection?
20:20 < fenn> you can sputter off rock-vapor onto a conveyor belt
20:21 < kanzure> ah
20:21 < fenn> or you can use it like a pulsed laser to blast out areas
20:21 < kanzure> okay
20:21 < fenn> through thermal cracking and gas generation
20:21 < kanzure> how's that?
20:22 < fenn> when you get something hot enough it turns into a gas
20:22 < fenn> the gas pressure would tend to push on the sides of the crack, blasting the rock apart
20:22 < fenn> on a microscopic level of course
20:22 < fenn> you would need a quick shutter to turn the beam on suddenly
20:22 < fenn> the sunlight beam
20:24 < fenn> heck you could just use a huge co2 laser if you wanted
20:24 < kanzure> wait, what?
20:24 < kanzure> so you quickly 'snap' at the rock
20:24 < kanzure> and it breaks apart
20:24 < kanzure> and then you have what, a collection of broken up particles
20:24 < fenn> yes
20:25 < kanzure> if you have a supermassive co2 laser, you would aim it at the rock (ahead of time), and fire?
20:25 < kanzure> and then you would, what, push the materials somewhere?
20:25 < fenn> the whole rock doesn't explode at once
20:25 < kanzure> that's a large, centralized system
20:25 < fenn> you just get a stream of smoke and dust and vaporized rock
20:25 < kanzure> oh
20:25 < kanzure> and out of that 'stream crack' you put your machinery
20:25 < kanzure> which would package the materials and send 'em off?
20:25 < fenn> right
20:26 < fenn> though this all seems somewhat primitive to me :)
20:26 < kanzure> if it works ;)
20:26 < kanzure> a giant km aluminum sheet for hitting a rock does not sound that good
20:26 < kanzure> how would you snap the sheet exactly?
20:26 < fenn> snap the sheet?
20:26 < kanzure> you'd need some awesome acceleration on the edges 
20:26 < kanzure> yeah
20:26 < kanzure> that's what you said, right?
20:26 < fenn> no
20:27 < fenn> you've read about point-focus mirror arrangement?
20:27 < kanzure> http://kmr.nada.kth.se/wiki/Main/PointFocus ?
20:27 < fenn> http://kmr.nada.kth.se/wiki/Main/PointFocus
20:27 < fenn> yep
20:28 < kanzure> oh, it's a solar concentrator
20:28 < fenn> ok, so that's basically the structure we're building in zero-g
20:28 < kanzure> a giant mirror-funnel
20:28 < fenn> just because it's easy to make
20:28 < fenn> now, the sunlight becomes more and more focused as you approach the focal point
20:28 < fenn> there's presumably a plane somewhere between the focal plane and the mirror, where you'd put the shutter
20:28 < kanzure> that's okay, you can cycle cold rocks
20:29 < kanzure> on the other side of the mirrors
20:29 < fenn> so, even though you have multi-TW/cm^2 on the asteroid face, the shutter only experiences, say, a few MW/cm^2
20:30 < kanzure> is TW/cm^2 enough to melt the materials?
20:30 < kanzure> I guess it has to be, nevermind.
20:30 < fenn> it doesnt matter
20:30 < kanzure> that's quite a number of watts
20:30 < kanzure> no?
20:30 < fenn> you dont want to melt the rocks anyway
20:30 < fenn> you want to induce thermal shock, and vaporize a thin surface layer
20:30 < fenn> these two processes operate on different timescales
20:31 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_shock
20:31 < fenn> so i guess there'd be one frequency modulated by another one
20:32 < fenn> or you could just use thermal shock and hope the momentum carries the particle outwards
20:32 < fenn> or maybe just blow gas on it
20:33 < kanzure> TW/cm^2 should be able to move an object in space
20:33 < kanzure> especially if we have slowed it down 
20:33 < fenn> yeah but is it fast enough to get out of the way? otherwise smoke will be covering the area we're focusing on
20:35 < fenn> damn wikipedia.. every time i read it i find some new tangent to run down
20:35 < kanzure> the solution is to take the integral
20:36 < fenn> no i believe you must use the arc-tangent
20:36 < fenn> tan^-1
20:38 < kanzure> that'll just give you the angle, not the set of all tangents 
20:38 < kanzure> wait
20:38 < kanzure> I should have said you should take the derivative again
20:38 < kanzure> to get a picture of all of the tangents
20:52 < fenn> what's the point of having different desktops in KDE if window titles from all desktops pile up onto the same task bar?
20:53 < kanzure> don't know
20:53 < kanzure> I dislike the KDE scrolling method for the taskbar
20:53 < fenn> yuck, that is bad
20:53 < kanzure> I pile up 50 to 70 tabs a night for different windows (mostly papers that I'm reading)
20:54 < fenn> scroll wheel is so easy to hit on accident, especially with a laptop touchpad
20:54 < kanzure> okay, for dissipating the gas quickly enough
20:54 < kanzure> to get out of the way of the sunlight
20:54 < kanzure> just have an angular momentum of the asteroid
20:55 < kanzure> such that it'll create a spiral of gas that we can harvest above or below it
20:55 < fenn> the asteroid is spinning around the focal point?
20:55 < kanzure> no
20:55 < kanzure> I was thinking of a case where there's a shutter
20:55 < kanzure> a hole 
20:55 < kanzure> through which the light will come
20:55 < kanzure> and on the other side we have the rock
20:55 < kanzure> and this rock will be spinning in place
20:55 < kanzure> the light will hit it and evaporate a layer
20:56 < kanzure> and that layer will also retain the angular momentum, ideally
20:56 < kanzure> I see no reason why it would not
20:56 < fenn> the asteroid will be rough, but i guess it's sorta like turning rough stock on a lathe
20:56 < fenn> so eventually it'll become a nice neat cylinder
20:56 < kanzure> sure
20:56 < kanzure> oh
20:56 < kanzure> the shavings from a lathe
20:56 < kanzure> also spiral, right?
20:57 < kanzure> I've never actaully used one.
20:57 < kanzure> *actually
20:57 < fenn> it depends, on a lot of things
20:57 < fenn> sometimes you get long stringy ribbons, sometimes you get dust
20:57 < fenn> sometimes it melts into a glob :(
20:58 < kanzure> as you increase the distance of your contraption from the sun, the greater the surface area you need
20:58 < kanzure> I bet we'll want this thing pretty close, no where near the asteroid belt
20:58 < kanzure> not to mention the extraction processes we will need to get the km^2 of aluminum in the first place
20:58 < fenn> i think the mirror is going to be the least expensive part of the system
20:59 < fenn> hurr
20:59 < fenn> ok, so it's a bit more than i thought
20:59 < kanzure> hm?
20:59 < fenn> 1*km^2 by 1 micron thick is ~6tons of aluminum
20:59 < kanzure> yeah ...
20:59 < kanzure> also, if we want to get energy through another way
20:59 < kanzure> I was thinking of the orbital algae farms
21:00 < kanzure> using these to get biofuel
21:00 < kanzure> which would power the mining machinery
21:00 < fenn> no no no no NO!
21:00 < kanzure> on this note I found an awesome document
21:00 < fenn> i dont care about your document, it's crap
21:00 < kanzure> that explained how to get a metal forge up and running on vegetable oil
21:00 < kanzure> hm?
21:00 < fenn> ok, on earth, maybe
21:01 < kanzure> bacteria grow on their own, as long as you provide the nutrition
21:01 < kanzure> we can bootstrap the nutrition with sea water
21:01 < fenn> oh, sea water
21:01 < fenn> yes, ON EARTH
21:01 < kanzure> hehe
21:01 < kanzure> yes, but think about it
21:01 < kanzure> how much water is in the atmosphere
21:01 < kanzure> the rest of the sea water contents are what we need to export
21:01 < kanzure> there's water that is accessible from the other side of the atmosphere
21:02 < fenn> how exactly are the bacteria going to grow in a giant chunk of nickel and iron?
21:02 < kanzure> no, this is not the same idea
21:02 < kanzure> this is for photosynthesis and storage of energy 
21:02 < fenn> oh
21:02 < kanzure> the reason why biofuels do not work on earth is surface area
21:03 < kanzure> in space we have all the freakin' surface area we want
21:03 < fenn> lots of ways to store energy in space
21:03 < kanzure> you need to scale up the surface area
21:03 < kanzure> it's not for storing energy
21:03 < kanzure> it's for collecting it
21:03 < fenn> not really
21:03 < kanzure> yes, I've considered solar cells
21:03 < kanzure> but you'd need to be able to manufacture the solar cells
21:04 < fenn> algae is only really good for intricate molecular reactions we can't do otherwise
21:04 < kanzure> i.e., photosynthesis
21:04 < fenn> it's only considered in the context of supporting human "exploration"
21:04 < kanzure> ?
21:04 < kanzure> oh
21:04 < kanzure> solar cells?
21:04 < fenn> algae
21:05 < kanzure> I don't think you read the orbital algae farm article
21:05 < fenn> photosynthesis is only like, 3% efficient
21:05 < kanzure> the idea is to have giant tanks of algae
21:05 < kanzure> in water
21:05 < kanzure> wtf?
21:05 < kanzure> I'm pretty sure it's much more
21:05 < kanzure> our solar cells do 20%
21:05 < kanzure> and they are supposed to be less efficient
21:05 < fenn> Sugarcane is an exception as it can have almost 8% efficiency.
21:05 < kanzure> from Wikipedia - The light energy is converted to chemical energy using the light-dependent reactions. This chemical energy production is more than 90% efficient with only 5-8% of the energy transferred thermally.
21:06 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis#Molecular_production
21:06 < fenn> Trees convert light in to chemical energy through the process of photosynthesis with a photosynthetic efficiency of approximately 0.2-0.5%.
21:06 < kanzure> hm
21:07 < fenn> it may be a matter of genetic engineering
21:08 < fenn> Through photosynthesis, sunlight energy is transferred to molecular reaction centers for conversion into chemical energy with nearly 100-percent efficiency. The transfer of the solar energy takes place almost instantaneously, so little energy is wasted as heat. However, only 43% of the total solar incident radiation can be used (only light in the range 400-700 nm), 20% of light is blocked by canopy, and plant respiration requires about 33% of the stored energy, which brings down the actual efficiency of photosynthesis to about 6.6%
21:08 < kanzure> Technology Review: Fuel from AlgaeUnfortunately this immediately means that the efficiency is going to be much less than 0.5%, as no crops (other than photosynthetic algae) capture more than ...
21:08 < kanzure> "and plant respiration requir"
21:09 < kanzure> so, at most 43% efficiency
21:09 < fenn> the 20% blocked by canopy is not really fair
21:09 < fenn> right, because plants are green, not black
21:09 < fenn> but anyway, this is compared to a micron thick layer of aluminum foil
21:10 < kanzure> puncturability?
21:10 < fenn> so what?
21:10 < kanzure> swarmer-fixing robots?
21:10 < fenn> just let it degrade
21:10 < kanzure> and where are you going to get this aluminum?
21:10 < fenn> it's not like a tether where you care if a bit of it breaks
21:11 < fenn> well, you dont have to use aluminum, it's just that there's a lot of it on the moon, and aluminum has a very high (highest?) reflectivity
21:11 < fenn> actually probably silver has the highest
21:11 < fenn> oh, i'll consult the oracle
21:11 < kanzure> eh, I'd prefer to stay away from the moon, there's lots of requirements for landing on the moon that are best avoided in my opinion
21:12 < kanzure> but if that's what's required ...
21:12 < fenn> it has something to do with the conductivity
21:12 < fenn> sure, moon makes sense in some scenarios, not so much in others
21:13 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflectivity <- look at the graph
21:13 < kanzure> odd dip
21:17 < kanzure> so how do we mine for aluminum
21:17 < kanzure> I'm guessing we need to use oxygen or hydrogen fuel
21:17 < fenn> why?
21:17 < kanzure> my LOX fractional distillation ideas?
21:17 < kanzure> because we need to get the aluminum
21:17 < kanzure> LOX is accessible from LEO
21:18 < kanzure> in the sense that we have the other side of the atmosphere
21:18 < fenn> chemical fuels are only good for high thrust, which you only need to get into orbit
21:18 < kanzure> Hall effect thrusters still need a gas fuel
21:18 < kanzure> so you have your gas there ;)
21:18 < fenn> eh..
21:18 < fenn> sorta
21:18 < kanzure> Halls are slow, though
21:18 < kanzure> slow acceleration
21:18 < fenn> it doesnt matter
21:19 < fenn> there are a bazillion different proposals for mass launchers from the surface of luna
21:19 < fenn> i happen to like the rotovator concept
21:20 < kanzure> I've never seen a complete proposal/schematic for any type of launcher, anywhere
21:20 < kanzure> (I am angry about this.)
21:20 < fenn> what do you mean complete?
21:20 < fenn> like, tested debugged and packaged for sale?
21:20 < kanzure> okay, 'sufficient' to get the idea
21:21 < kanzure> I haven't seen any schematics, really
21:23 < fenn> ok, i see what you mean
21:23 < fenn> here's a picture http://www.permanent.com/t-massdr.htm
21:24 < kanzure> hahah
21:24 < kanzure> catapult
21:24 < fenn> cool site btw
21:24 < kanzure> that's easy enough to design
21:24 < kanzure> is it a rail gun?
21:24 < fenn> yes
21:25 < fenn> there are other schemes, like slingatron
21:25 < kanzure> there are many pages on the net on railguns
21:25 < fenn> er.. actually it's not a rail gun
21:25 < fenn> it's a gauss gun
21:25 < fenn> but wuteva
21:25 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coil_gun
21:32 < fenn> there are a number of papers on tethers.com but i think they might be too long and detailed for you
21:35 < fenn> this one appears to be most relevant to the current discussion: http://www.tethers.com/papers/CislunarAIAAPaper.pdf
21:36 < kanzure> hm, I have not explored the prospects of tethers on the moon
21:37 < fenn> the most appealing aspect of course is that we can do it with today's materials and technology
21:38 < fenn> compared to certain other tether concepts :)
21:38 < fenn> you can't de-orbit something with a mass driver
21:41 < fenn> something i almost never see mentioned is that vacuum tubes are amazingly inexpensive in outer space
21:41 < fenn> so something like a big rail gun suddenly costs a lot less to build
21:42 < fenn> and flywheel energy storage, etc
21:44 < fenn> if you decelerate the bucket at the end and have a loop of bucket track, you can think of the launcher as a giant flywheel
21:52 < fenn> fenn's corrolary to clarke's third law: any sufficiently undeveloped sci-fi technology is indistinguishable from magic
21:54 < kanzure> insufficiently developed, how about?
21:56 < fenn> havent worked out the details
21:57 < fenn> like, the author was too lazy to go and learn about physics and do the math to see if the idea would work at all
21:59 < kanzure> yep
21:59 < kanzure> and if you can't work out the math
21:59 < kanzure> then you should at least propose a way for somebody else to get started on the problem space
22:00 < kanzure> I am pretty sure that the only way we are going to be able to do the autogenix+self-replicator project is if we can do materials-engineering
22:00 < kanzure> where we can engineer materials to meet certain specifications
22:01 < kanzure> based off of their matter and energy requirements
22:01 < kanzure> but, I fear this might require a Grand-Unified-Theory or something
22:01 < kanzure> some 'mega theory' for predicting what the substrate of a certain property has to be
22:01 < kanzure> which is generally not good :(
22:01 < kanzure> I've never heard of something like that in materials science.
22:02 < kanzure> unless
22:02 < kanzure> unless we can possibly prove that self-replication can be done within a certain parameter space of materials
22:02 < kanzure> that way, we know which machines to build to automatically test materials for a certain property
22:03 < kanzure> but if the requirements turn out to be something weird like flows and viscosity and deformation, then that's not good for automated testing of a variety of different substances
22:08 < fenn> would you consider bio molecules like amino acids to be 'materials'?
22:08 < kanzure> yes, but not for the macroscale replicators we want
22:08 < kanzure> we're above the level of Brownian diffusion here
22:08 < kanzure> heh
22:08 < fenn> when i was laying out the clay-sand-salt replicator, there was a lot of chemistry going on
22:09 < fenn> not just gears and beams
22:09 < kanzure> right
22:09 < kanzure> but those were batch chemical reactions
22:09 < fenn> and electrodynamic plasma stuff too (maybe)
22:10 < fenn> the AMTEC electricity generator
22:10 < fenn> maybe i can get around that complexity with a sodium battery or something
22:11 < fenn> ok, and then you have control stuff, presumably a standard silicon computer chip
22:12 < kanzure> or graphene molecules
22:12 < fenn> i dont know much about the processes involved, but we can consider materials involved as trace elements for the most part
22:12 < fenn> well, graphene doesnt come from sand
22:12 < kanzure> graphene comes from carbon
22:12 < kanzure> hurray
22:12 < kanzure> and it's really easy to process
22:12 < kanzure> let's not include silicon fabrication
22:12 < fenn> ok, but the point was to do it with silicon
22:12 < fenn> i understand it's possible with carbon and maybe easier
22:13 < kanzure> the amount of machinery required to do silicon fabrication is more than you can afford
22:13 < fenn> bah
22:13 < kanzure> in the sense of dependency loops
22:13 < fenn> dependency loops are good remember? :)
22:13 < kanzure> but not if they exponentially add material requirements
22:13 < kanzure> i.e., the machinery to do si fabbing might add 2 new materials
22:13 < kanzure> and those 2 new materials might each add 2 new materials ...
22:13 < kanzure> but I guess you'll never know unless you scout it out
22:13 < fenn> ok so that's not a loop
22:14 < fenn> that's a tree
22:14 < kanzure> there's a good wikibook on chemical etching and silicon fabbing
22:14 < kanzure> ah, right
22:14 < kanzure> good point
22:14 < kanzure> but anyway, wikibooks has a great article
22:14 < kanzure> I mapped it out at
22:14 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/notes.html I think
22:14 < kanzure> including the chemicals
22:14 < kanzure> so we can go figure out what elements are in the chemicals
22:20 < fenn> ok that's too much to do right now
22:20 < kanzure> but obviously it's possible to do it
22:20 < kanzure> so that's good :)
22:21 < fenn> there is some wiggle room too, but industry has naturally settled on the optimum
22:21 < fenn> so you'll never read about NaOH etching of silicon, for example
22:21 < kanzure> I want to experiment with graphene transistors. But I don't know how to make an excuse to distract myself from my other projects and ideas.
22:22 < kanzure> I can go buy the parts to do it, plus the chemicals, but shouldn't I be focusing on the other projects ?
22:22 < fenn> dunno.. actually doing something is good for publicity ;)
22:22 < kanzure> we don't need publicity, just damn good ideas
22:23 < fenn> 'hackaday: high school student makes carbon semiconductors in his basement from recycled pop-tarts'
22:23 < kanzure> that's instant "hire this kid" material
22:23 < kanzure> btw, I discovered today that hackaday is blocked from school
22:23 < kanzure> as "criminal skills"
22:23 < fenn> naturally
22:24 < fenn> dont you know the internet is full of sick demented people who like to fuck dogs?
22:24 < kanzure> yes, I do actually
22:24 < kanzure> admittedly, I've explored various regions of the internet in my travels
22:24 < fenn> besides, hackaday has a black background, and a skull, so it must be evil
22:24 < kanzure> ah, of course
22:29 < kanzure> http://www.ridgenet.net/~do_while/toaster.htm The Breakfast Food Cooker (only because I linked to this in #neuroscience a few moments ago, but it is also relevant to skdb)
22:33 < fenn> heh, "Specifically, we need an object-oriented language with multiple inheritance."
22:33 < kanzure> obviously this inheritance is the same as the dependency-loop specifications hehe
22:33 < kanzure> what we need is a simplified way of diagramming
22:33 < kanzure> this is how Feynman did QED
22:34 < kanzure> and he claimed it's the secret to solving any good problem
22:34 < fenn> we already have computer toasters (application-specific programs)
22:35 < fenn> i want a breakfast food cooker! an AutoCook 9000
22:39 < fenn> ah, mediaglyphics
22:40 < fenn> (feynman diagrams)
22:47 < fenn> Then, one evening, after working at CERN, I stopped on my way back to my apartment to visit some friends living in Meyrin where I smoked some illegal substance. Later, when I got back to my apartment and continued working on our paper, I had a sudden flash that the famous diagrams look like penguins.
22:51 < fenn> ok, aside from the wavy lines and curlicue lines, graphviz has all the same functionality
22:54 < fenn> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:GraphViz
23:29 < fenn> this type of diagram looks useful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Calvin-cycle3.png
23:40 < fenn> carbon dioxide to diamond via metallic sodium http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/jacsat/2003/125/i31/abs/ja035177i.html
23:41 < fenn> i bet the same mechanism can yield different phases of carbon depending on the conditions
23:45 < kanzure> btw, I'll also install the export-db extension while I'm at it
23:46 < fenn> while you're at what?
23:47 < kanzure> the Graphviz extension ;)
23:53 < kanzure> fenn: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Graphviz -- done
23:54 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Special:ViewXML Export db as XML.
23:56 < kanzure> http://dbpedia.org/About "way to extract structured data from Wikipedia"