--- Day changed Sat Mar 29 2008
00:00 < fenn> appears to be a blank image? http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/upload/graphviz/Graphviz---digraph G.png
00:00 < kanzure> really? I see it.
00:01 < kanzure> the URL loads for me
00:01 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/upload/graphviz/Graphviz---digraph%20G.png
00:02 < fenn> weird. works in konqueror but not firefox
00:03 < kanzure> Kickass. I made +4 and +3 on Slashdot today.
00:03 < kanzure> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=503546&cid=22901672
00:05 < fenn> works on firefox 1.5 but not 3.mumble alpha .. oh well
00:41 < kanzure> jackpot
00:41 < kanzure> http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=computational+materials+science&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
00:47 < kanzure> fenn: Computational Materials Science: From AB Initio to Monte Carlo Methods
00:48 < kanzure> http://www.amazon.com/Computational-Materials-Science-Springer-Solid-State/dp/3540639616
00:48 < kanzure> What do you think?
00:48 < fenn> getting from theory to practice and back again is the hard part
00:48 < kanzure> Google Books has the first chapter.
00:48 < kanzure> Monte Carlo methods are **good** 
00:48 < kanzure> because if we can use those then we're set
00:48 < kanzure> instead of running massive GAs
00:49 < fenn> that's like random sampling to find a global optimum?
00:50 < kanzure> yes
00:50 < kanzure> do you know the inverse DNA/RNA folding problem?
00:50 < kanzure> well, mostly inverse protein problem
00:50 < fenn> er.. which one is inverse?
00:50 < kanzure> given a structure that you want, find the amino acid (and thus nucleotide) sequence that will generate it
00:50 < fenn> ok
00:50 < kanzure> same thing here
00:50 < kanzure> except with other materials
00:50 < kanzure> and not necessarily "folding"
00:51 < kanzure> obviously it's a more about the functionality
00:51 < kanzure> which I don't know how to express exactly
00:51 < kanzure> the functionality is not at the molecular level necessarily
00:51 < kanzure> but rather a macroscale phenomenon
00:51 < kanzure> so that you can get those dependency loops working
00:51 < fenn> and.. this is different how? (noting that the protein problem is hard)
00:52 < kanzure> do you see the difference between protein structure and material fabricational-dependency?
00:52 < fenn> yes, they are so wildly different i'm having a hard time seeing the similarities
00:53 < fenn> basically oyu're saying, 'i need a material with such and such properties, find me the atomic structure'
00:53 < kanzure> I wonder if I am suggesting that the code might need to be (physically) functional just like in DNA
00:53 < kanzure> sort of, yes
00:53 < kanzure> I suppose what I am expecting to find is some sort of classification of the materials that we need in the dependency-loop
00:53 < fenn> but the way i see it, we dont have that kind of bulk nanoscale production technology yet
00:53 < kanzure> i.e., "for black box #5 you need an amorphous gel with an electrical conductivity of 0.5%"
00:54 < kanzure> but somehow this all requires human creativity
00:54 < kanzure> argh
00:54 < fenn> computers are good at optimization
00:55 < fenn> you need to provide a starting point
00:55 < fenn> otherwise the search space is too large
00:56 < kanzure> ah, that's right
00:56 < kanzure> so how about this
00:56 < kanzure> let's identify the materials that material scientists have characterized well enough that simulations with molecular dynamics can be done
00:56 < kanzure> I bet it happens to be clay/sand just like we've been using
00:56 < kanzure> as well as silicon and germanium
00:56 < kanzure> lots of money behind those elements
00:56 < fenn> yep
00:56 < kanzure> I need to go find some software packages.
00:57 < fenn> prepare to be underwhelmed
00:59 < kanzure> http://www.ices.utexas.edu/ccm/itamit/ Institute for the Theory of Advanced Materials in Information Technology. Heh. Maybe I'll go have lunch with a professor and ask for some STMs.
01:00 < kanzure> http://www.mcc.uiuc.edu/cgi-bin/software/software.pl various software packages
01:01 < fenn> you know it's going to be clunky when they refer to it as 'a computer code'
01:01 < kanzure> no kidding
01:01 < kanzure> well
01:01 < kanzure> you know where that comes from, right?
01:01 < fenn> no
01:01  * fenn guesses los alamos
01:01 < kanzure> it's from back in the 1960s when NASA and the military were doing different military codes (as in, paperwork) for protocols in computational simulations
01:01 < kanzure> yep
01:01 < kanzure> or something like that
01:02 < kanzure> so each one had a code, like GAG1201
01:02 < kanzure> and so they called them codes.
01:02 < kanzure> I sure hope that this isn't where we get people saying "GIVE ME TEH CODES!!11one"
01:06 < kanzure> http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Longevity/Story?id=4520397&page=1 "Live to be 150 .. can you do it? Tuesday at 10 ET on ABC News." <-- I know the guy being interviewed. Know as in, through the internet.
01:06 < fenn> aubrey de grey?
01:07 < kanzure> no, 
01:07 < kanzure> Tripper McCarthy
01:07 < kanzure> but I have talked with AdG before
01:09 < fenn> i was listening to arthur clarke's last interview, on ieee spectrum
01:09 < kanzure> any good?
01:09 < fenn> sounded really terrible, like he was dying on tape
01:09 < kanzure> we need a new Big Three
01:09 < fenn> and the guy was asking all these questions that i'm sure he'd answered a million times
01:09 < kanzure> what a terrible way to go out
01:16 < kanzure> I am expecting papers like "Class-23 type materials can always be used to produce 45-a-j-k polymers". 
01:19 < epitron> hmmm
01:19 < epitron> kanzure: do you think you could make a self-replicating fiber optic network cable that tunnelled under the ground?
01:20 < kanzure> where would it get the materials?
01:20 < epitron> dirt
01:20 < epitron> :D
01:20 < kanzure> possibly, what about the energy/heat needed to make the fiber optics?
01:20 < epitron> (i dunno what it would need, but i figure optical fibers are semi-easy to make using heat and sand)
01:20 < epitron> hmmm
01:20 < kanzure> optical fibers are pulled as crystal-glass last I checked
01:20 < kanzure> so that's some serious heat for such a small thing :)
01:20 < epitron> how about if it grew leaves
01:21 < epitron> and collected solar energy
01:21 < kanzure> well, since solar cells can barely heat houses for the winter, I dunno :)
01:21 < epitron> or maybe it could run on fossil fuels... as it grew, it could extend a thin tube
01:21 < fenn> the whole point of fiber optics is that you can go long distances without signal degradation, because the glass is so amazingly pure
01:21 < epitron> and one end of the cable would have a gascan attached to it :)
01:21 < kanzure> epitron: What about replicating wireless nodes?
01:21 < epitron> and it would grow until it ran out of gas
01:21 < fenn> that purity comes from chemistry, in particular chlorosilane decomposition
01:21 < epitron> wireless nodes are a piece of cake -- there are factories everywhere making those
01:22 < epitron> the problem is the long distance connections
01:22 < kanzure> replication is exponential, you can mesh the planet in 33 days
01:22 < epitron> there are vast tracts of space with no habitation, and hence no wireless nodes
01:22 < fenn> you can send a shortwave broadcast around the planet
01:22 < epitron> hmm
01:22 < epitron> shortwave is unreliable
01:22 < epitron> planetwide meshing is a neat idea
01:22 < fenn> yes, so are fiber optic cables
01:22  * fenn has quit - connection reset by backhoe
01:22 < epitron> yeah, that could work
01:22 < epitron> pfft :)
01:23 < epitron> you only have that problem in cities
01:23 < epitron> the network cable plant could instinctively avoid highways
01:23 < epitron> but i like this self-replicating wifi mesh idea
01:24 < kanzure> floating/flying weather balloon wireless hubs
01:24 < fenn> even better if they are flying sensor nodes
01:24 < kanzure> hahah
01:24 < epitron> the thing that's neat about the underground method however is that it's secret
01:24 < kanzure> just what I said :)
01:24 < epitron> nobody knows it's there
01:24 < fenn> i typed it first.. my stupid wifi is slow
01:24 < kanzure> suuure ;)
01:24 < kanzure> where's my patent application form
01:24 < kanzure> quick!
01:24 < kanzure> nobody would know it's in the air either
01:24 < fenn> where's my automated patent application agent
01:25 < epitron> wouldn't there be millions of little balloons? :)
01:25 < kanzure> maybe in /dev/random 
01:25 < fenn> quick! i must patent automatic patenting, and the patenting of meta patent strategies
01:25 < epitron> i patented patenting
01:25 < epitron> ur all screwed
01:25 < fenn> all ur patents r belong to US
01:26  * epitron nods
01:26 < kanzure> we need a woman in here
01:26 < epitron> or an official subsidiary
01:26 < epitron> hahah
01:26 < kanzure> that too
01:26 < epitron> true dat
01:26  * fenn nominates epitron
01:26  * epitron purses her lips
01:26 < fenn> how bout sarahemm
01:26 < kanzure> the tranny?
01:26 < fenn> she's transhumanist i think :P
01:26 < kanzure> she's ambiguous, that's what he is
01:26 < epitron> same diff
01:27 < epitron> i didn't find her that sharp either
01:27 < kanzure> but if she has the time, sure
01:27 < epitron> anyhow...
01:27 < epitron> hold on i'll get a girl in here
01:27 < epitron> i'll see how long she lasts
01:27 < kanzure> speaking of getting people in here, how about Superkuh?
01:27 < kanzure> He doesn't talk much.
01:27 < fenn> this is why i was thinking sarahemm http://www.sarahemm.net/bookview.php
01:28 < kanzure> I remember she was doing portable computers 
01:28 < kanzure> wearables, I mean
01:29 < fenn> is superkuh still obsessing about flu pandemics?
01:29 < kanzure> is that what he was last doing?
01:30 < fenn> last i talked to him
01:30 < kanzure> how long?
01:30 < fenn> uh, a year?
01:30 -!- mech0r [n=DION102@cpe-74-73-121-30.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
01:30 < kanzure> hm, the last I talked with him, we were talking some heavy-duty neuroscience
01:30 < mech0r> ARE YOU SERIOUS
01:30 < epitron> there we go
01:30 < epitron> meet mech0r
01:30 < epitron> she is a robot
01:30 < mech0r> ARE YOU SERIOUS?
01:31 < epitron> o_O
01:31 < fenn> _-_
01:31 < mech0r> O_o
01:31 < kanzure> R. U. Sirius has contacted me and would like me to write a few articles for his newsletter.
01:31 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._U._Sirius
01:31  * mech0r parts
01:31 < fenn> is he related to the australian guy?
01:31 < kanzure> "The" australian guy?
01:31 < fenn> yahoo
01:31 < fenn> yahoo sirius
01:31 < kanzure> not sure
01:31 < epitron> The Revolution Party
01:31 < epitron> kickass
01:31 < kanzure> it's closely related to the Pirate Party, in concept
01:32 < kanzure> except not grassroots-tech
01:32 < kanzure> just grassroots-extropic
01:33 < epitron> R.U. Sirius sounds like he has a fun life
01:34 < mech0r> please sum that article up in 1 word
01:35 < fenn> irrelevant
01:35 < mech0r> ok awesome i'm good to go
01:36 < mech0r> so ahem*
01:36 < mech0r> pardon me
01:36 < mech0r> where is everybody from
01:36 < kanzure> Austin, Texas.
01:36 < kanzure> mech0r: you?
01:36 < fenn> bloomington IN
01:36 < mech0r> <--- NYC
01:37 < kanzure> So, what did epitron tell you to get you in here?
01:37 < fenn> kanzure: you know it's funny the similarities between bloomington and austin
01:37 < mech0r> he said i'd get pics of bois
01:37 < kanzure> fenn: Indiana has more university smarts last time I checked.
01:37 < epitron>  |:)
01:37 < epitron> | :)
01:37 < epitron>  |:)
01:37 < epitron> | :)
01:37 < kanzure> mech0r: Sorry, no boys around here. Only men.
01:37 < epitron>  |:)
01:37 < fenn> nah just philosophy crap
01:37 < mech0r> i don't believe it
01:37 < epitron> do you demand PROOF?
01:37 < epitron> send her pics boys!
01:37 < mech0r> i do
01:38 < kanzure> I'm sure I have a link somewhere.
01:39 < mech0r> also he promised me a bag of sleptons.
01:39 < fenn> i mean, they separated engineering into its own school, thus killing the vibrancy of it (purdue) and turning the other school (bloomington) into a big wank-fest
01:39 < kanzure> yikes
01:39  * epitron hands mech0r a bag of decayed sleptons and runs away
01:39 < kanzure> Purdue and Wisconsin have always impressed me
01:39 < mech0r> WHAT
01:39 < kanzure> but I hear that Purdue just *sounds* nice
01:39 < fenn> its really depressing to be there
01:39 < kanzure> and that they've gone downhill in recent
01:39  * mech0r shoves the decayed sleptons up epi's butt
01:40 < kanzure> fenn: I did a bookmark count to determine where I should apply to. By far, MIT won. But Wisconsin was way the hell up there. They do some serious engineering and serious physics -- no bullshitting with them.
01:40 < mech0r> Madison?
01:40 < kanzure> yes
01:40 < epitron> i get a girl to join
01:41 < epitron> and you guys start talking about what universities you want to go to?
01:41 < mech0r> i know someone who went to madison
01:41 < epitron> what is wrong with you :)
01:41 < kanzure> epitron: I'm not into group cyberbanging. 
01:41 < epitron> hahah
01:41 < fenn> hmm.. i'm thinking about MIT also, but dunno if i really want to go down the academic path
01:41 < mech0r> others went to carnegie n rpi 
01:41 < kanzure> fenn: Just good people to know.
01:41 < mech0r> cuz the didn't feel like working hard at mit
01:41 < fenn> right
01:41 < kanzure> undergrad MIT is supposedly hell
01:41 < epitron> oh right, MIT is Waterloo South
01:41 < fenn> their motto is "IHTFP" i hate this fucking place
01:41 < mech0r> it's like why even bother
01:41 < kanzure> awesome
01:42 < epitron> mech0r: yeah, it's the slavery abyss :)
01:42 < epitron> you do not want to drift too far into the machine
01:42 < epitron> it burns you out
01:42 < mech0r> kant in my chan is in comp/elec engineering
01:42 < epitron> uses you up
01:42 < mech0r> and he didn't have all too much fun at it
01:42 < mech0r> ^_^ \/
01:42 < kanzure> Hrm.
01:42 < epitron> we are not machines... yet.
01:42 < kanzure> but on the other hand you have lots of smart kids and an energetic environment
01:42 < mech0r> oh but i am....
01:42 < kanzure> so that's the advantage
01:43 < mech0r> energetic?
01:43 < epitron> well, true
01:43 < epitron> there is an art to living
01:43 < mech0r> lullz beer and math
01:43 < epitron> if you can find a balance at a crazy ass school like that, then you'll be set for life :)
01:43 < kanzure> epitron: How about finding us a serious chick?
01:43 < fenn> kanzure: not gonna happen
01:43 < epitron> dude
01:43 < epitron> mech0r rocks
01:43 < kanzure> :(
01:43 < mech0r> serious about kicking ass
01:43 < mech0r> hi
01:43 < fenn> kanzure: every single time i find a girl who is technically minded, she turns out to be a transsexual
01:43 -!- kanzure changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: happy bunny day - day of the replicator || http://heybryan.org/ http://chris.ill-logic.com/ http://fennetic.net/
01:43  * mech0r hides bulge
01:44 < kanzure> ah crap
01:44 < epitron> yee
01:44 < epitron> don't put that in there
01:44 < epitron> people will find my shit!
01:44 < kanzure> fenn: That's ... unfortunate.
01:44 < epitron> plz remove webpage plz
01:44 < fenn> i dont think so really
01:44 < mech0r> you remove it
01:44 < kanzure> epitron: seriously?
01:44 < epitron> yes :)
01:44 -!- kanzure changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: happy bunny day - day of the replicator || http://heybryan.org/ http://fennetic.net/
01:44 < epitron> i give out my site to those who i want to see it
01:45 < epitron> so i can watch the traffic :)
01:45 < fenn> kanzure: there's so few technically minded people anyway..
01:45 < epitron> if too many people have it it starts to get spammed
01:45 < epitron> then i can't read the logs
01:45 < kanzure> fenn: I figure there should be a way to induce technical competence
01:45 < mech0r> haha geez epi
01:45 < fenn> it has to come from them
01:45 < fenn> you cant force someone to be genuinely interested
01:45 < kanzure> but then why did I start off as a moron?
01:46 < fenn> uh, because you had nothing pushing you in the right direction
01:46 < epitron> also because his brain was a blank slate
01:47 < fenn> kanzure: you mean like, five years ago or whatever, you cared about power rangers, right?
01:47 < kanzure> fenn: more like eight years ago, when I first started watching television. My thing was pokemon, not power rangers.
01:47 < fenn> sorry
01:47 < fenn> pokemon is a sort of autistic thing in itself though
01:47 < kanzure> yes
01:47 < kanzure> I've traced back a lot of ideas back to that show, weirdly enough
01:47 < fenn> sure
01:48 < kanzure> "meme trainers" etc.
01:48 < kanzure> hunting down ideas
01:48 < kanzure> and then a very big ego
01:48 < fenn> when i was a kid, there was no pokemon, so i made up my own alien ecology
01:48 < kanzure> yeah? how extensive?
01:48 < fenn> i dont know, i think i made something and then forgot and then re-did it
01:49 < fenn> it was based in part on the computer game 'starflight'
01:49 < fenn> er, for the sega genesis
01:49 < kanzure> I try to run background searches from time to time across the pokemon forums, looking for kids that might be me, so that I can catch them early.
01:50 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/docs/pokemon_forums.txt
01:50 < fenn> i think it was a rather shallow ecology, more like the african savannah than anything
01:51 < fenn> but it was a dense atmosphere planet so all kinds of weird flying crap
01:51 < fenn> bubble trees
01:51 < epitron> bubble tREES!
01:51 < fenn> none of this is digital though
01:51 < mech0r> so hmm
01:51 < kanzure> Well, if you want my internet history, there's random crap still around
01:52 < mech0r> how about them brain implants
01:52 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/*/animeu.hey.nu/
01:52 < kanzure> mech0r: yeah?
01:52 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Brain_implants
01:52 < kanzure> What about?
01:52 < fenn> brain implants are stupid
01:52 < epitron> oh yeah, mech0r, bryan has a crazy huge wiki
01:52 < mech0r> i've noticed
01:52 < fenn> by the time they get it implanted, there will be something better
01:52 < kanzure> One of the problems with brain implants that I focus on is that you can't predict what changes you can make
01:52 < kanzure> fenn: so the idea is to not implant a chip per-se
01:52 < kanzure> fenn: use viral gene therapy on a lab on a chip to modify your brain
01:52 < kanzure> chances are, viral gene therapy can't easily be updated anyway
01:53 < fenn> its like modems and satellite and cable and DSL
01:53 < kanzure> I mean, what sort of advances are we going to get there?
01:53 < fenn> in 5 years everyone will have 256Mbit DSL
01:53 < kanzure> I wish I would have started doing a wiki earlier. I only started this in February.
01:53 < fenn> then who knows, maybe optical mesh networks or something
01:54 < fenn> viral gene therapy should only be used to install a system that works reliably
01:54 < kanzure> correct
01:54 < fenn> like, wget apt.tgz
01:54 < kanzure> that's why we need self-replication for lots and lots of testing on neural slices
01:54 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Neurofarms
01:55 < fenn> more like tftp, not wget :)
01:55 < fenn> i never figured out a good way of doing a checksum on a genome
01:56 < kanzure> I don't know if that would be useful.
01:56 < fenn> you could kill anything that didnt match
01:56 < fenn> then you're guaranteed to be all cooperative cells
01:57 < fenn> or, instead of killing them, try infecting again ("transfecting" technically)
01:57 < kanzure> alright, good idea
01:58 < fenn> blah.. biology terminology is screwed
01:59 < kanzure> no kidding 
01:59 < kanzure> bio-ontologies might work out in the end, but 
01:59 < epitron> damn latin!
02:00 < fenn> most genetic engineering techniques are not very subtle, and you wouldnt want to put them in your body
02:00 < kanzure> but I haven't explored that scene sufficiently
02:00 < kanzure> they even have SBML - systems biology markup lang
02:00 < kanzure> right
02:00 < fenn> but in order to use more subtle gene expression, you have to ensure a high level of reliability in the vector
02:01 < kanzure> ideally we could engineer viruses on the spot with new nucleotide sequences
02:01 < kanzure> plus a kill mechanism, plus a maximum life expectancy
02:01 < fenn> the problem is that terms get entrenched before they know what is actually going on
02:01 < kanzure> and then let them infect the local population, then kill 'em
02:01 < kanzure> yes, that's true
02:01  * kanzure changes off the jpop (this is supposed to be anime-only ... kawaii is letting me down)
02:01 < fenn> see this is where the optical dna write-o-some comes in
02:01 < kanzure> fenn: Drew Endy took interest in your idea by the way. :)
02:02  * fenn googlestalks
02:02 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Drew_Endy should have something
02:02 < kanzure> ah here we go
02:02 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Synbio
02:03 < kanzure> that has a video interview with Drew
02:03 < fenn> alright who write wikipedia entries about assistant professors?
02:03 < kanzure> haha
02:03 < mech0r> did someone say anime.
02:03 < kanzure> Drew Endy did 23CCCC or whatever :)
02:03 < kanzure> mech0r: Yeah.
02:04 < kanzure> http://mp3.brascasses.eu/Hardcore%20dudur/Hardcore/Autres/Maximum%20The%20Hormone/Death%20note%20op2-%20What's%20up,%20people!-%20Maximum%20the%20hormone.mp3
02:04 < mech0r> you watched death note?
02:05 < fenn> i have some manga phone-books with death note, but i didnt really get it
02:05 < kanzure> mech0r: yes.
02:05 < kanzure> fenn: his dx is not enough to kill the number of people he wants to
02:05 < kanzure> mathematically infeasible
02:05 < mech0r> i gave up watching it after they killed off l
02:06 < kanzure> I havent' gotten that far, you bitch.
02:06 < kanzure> hehe
02:06 < mech0r> o
02:06 < kanzure> joking, joking
02:06 < mech0r> k
02:06 < mech0r> was wonderin...
02:06 < kanzure> yeah?
02:06 < mech0r> it's been out for a while heh
02:06 < kanzure> Sorry, I've only been working on the whole overpopulation problem ;)
02:06 < kanzure> I'll try working harder
02:06 < kanzure> bwahah
02:06 < mech0r> yes
02:06 < mech0r> work harder
02:07 < mech0r> be more asian
02:07 < fenn> http://parts.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Abstraction_hierarchy_and_PoPS
02:07 < kanzure> yep
02:07 < fenn> i'm still processing that, but it looks familiar
02:07 < kanzure> fenn: Ellington says that's all bullshit
02:07 < kanzure> and yes, it's familiar because I probably showed it to you already
02:08 < kanzure> remember my DNA compiler idea ? evolvable in vitro DNA logic? etc. ?
02:08 < fenn> no, i mean its like black-boxing
02:08 < kanzure> yes
02:08 < kanzure> but there's emergent effects =)
02:08 < kanzure> and they don't know how to account for it
02:08 < kanzure> join the mailing lists
02:08 < kanzure> faceface in #bioinformatics has a list of links to mailing lists
02:08 < fenn> uh, isnt the whole point of winfree's stuff that it's relatively deterministic and abstraction-friendly?
02:08 < kanzure> I think it's http://biodatabase.org/ and then just search for User:Kanzure
02:08 < fenn> the dna logic circuits
02:08 < kanzure> yes, but Winfree doesn't do biobricks
02:09 < kanzure> biobricks is more than logic, it's components and devices that make up new proteins and whatever
02:09 < kanzure> actually I'm not sure if it really is more
02:10 < fenn> so, it's bullshit because you cant control/predict the interactions between proteins?
02:10 < kanzure> it's also bullshit because there's no real way of getting data in and out
02:10 < kanzure> PoPS is mostly useless, you just have analog data reporting there
02:10 < fenn> well, that's the same problem with ellington's stuff
02:10 < kanzure> so obviously Ellington is more focused on the transcriptional toe-hold method for logic gates
02:11 < fenn> how do you get the data out? reverse transcriptase?
02:11 < kanzure> he hasn't told me
02:11 < kanzure> I think his point is that you can't
02:11 < fenn> harrumph
02:11 < epitron> drew endy is a great teacher
02:12 < kanzure> that's just the comp sci attitude
02:12 < kanzure> if you watched the vid on the wiki
02:12 < epitron> what's the compsci attitude, his teaching ability?
02:12 < kanzure> yeah, that's obvious abstraction and black-boxing
02:12 < epitron> (yeah, it was from the wiki)
02:12 < fenn> it's standard engineering
02:12 < kanzure> :)
02:12 < fenn> (literally)
02:12 < epitron> no, i just mean... he's good at top-down explainations and switching modes :)
02:12 < kanzure> he's had lots of practice I bet.
02:13 < epitron> what he's tlaking about is interesting too
02:13 < epitron> but not shicking
02:13 < epitron> -i+o
02:13 < kanzure> good, because that's what http://biohack.sf.net/ is about
02:13 < epitron> the 2nd video on your page has been removed btw
02:14 < fenn> my poor 433MHz laptop doesnt like multiple embedded videos
02:14 < kanzure> epitron: Google has it, I am sure of it.
02:15 < epitron> ok
02:15 < epitron> you want me to fix your wiki? :)
02:15 < epitron> oh, embedding disabled by request
02:15 < kanzure> ?
02:16 < kanzure> ah
02:16 < epitron> fix0red
02:16 < fenn> uh... asteroid mining to make tissue culture experiments? that's a little out there
02:16 < fenn> re: neurofarms
02:17 < epitron> OMG this guy has the best name
02:17 < epitron> NORRIS HUNG
02:17 < mech0r> that's my cousin 
02:17 < epitron> lies!
02:17 < epitron> you're just trying to be cool
02:17 < kanzure> fenn: yes, it's out there, and I don't need it to be out there
02:17 < mech0r> i don't have to try
02:18  * epitron snaps
02:18 < kanzure> fenn: but how else are we going to figure out what changes we are going to make?
02:18  * mech0r breaks epitron in half
02:18  * epitron crackles
02:18 < kanzure> I am pretty sure NASA's ISS is already doing tissue experiments
02:18 < fenn> kanzure: computer modeling
02:18 < fenn> they're interested in how biology adapts to zero-g
02:18 < kanzure> fenn: yes, but they prove that it can be done as well
02:19 < fenn> kanzure: if you have infinite computer processing power, is that enough?
02:19 < kanzure> I am not really sure it's a computational problem though
02:19 < fenn> or, infinite computer power + one tissue culture dish
02:19 < kanzure> how can you predict the emergent physics?
02:19 < fenn> with fine grained resolution :)
02:19 < kanzure> and at the moment it takes a very large supercomputer to simulate a simple dish
02:20 < fenn> meh
02:20 < kanzure> I have no problems with simulations
02:20 < kanzure> I'm all for it.
02:20 < fenn> atm it takes hundreds of millions just to send up an asteroid probe
02:20 < kanzure> millions of what?
02:20 < fenn> dollars
02:20 < kanzure> yeah ....
02:20 < kanzure> that's because they are clueless
02:20 < kanzure> I mean, they do not have engineers on their team doing everything
02:20 < kanzure> they all believe it's hard to do or something
02:21 < kanzure> meanwhile we have guys like John Carmack doing it with a team of five
02:21 < fenn> still, supercomputer access is more egalitarian than space access
02:21 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carmack
02:21 < kanzure> indeed
02:21 < fenn> bah
02:21 < fenn> doing something..
02:21 < epitron> john carmack is a team of five
02:21 < epitron> :)
02:21 < fenn> sure, most of the new space companies are small
02:21 < kanzure> I get the feeling that John doesn't like me much, though.
02:22 < epitron> haha
02:22 < fenn> he gets pestered by millions of people every day, dont worry about it
02:22 < epitron> what'd he say to you?
02:22 < kanzure> (and I don't specifically bug him)
02:22 < kanzure> epitron: uh, I don't have the email in front of me, but he basically said that I was bullshitting around
02:22 < kanzure> and he was right, but he didn't offer a good approach for me to adopt
02:22 < epitron> what was he referring to?
02:23 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Scramjets
02:23 < fenn> heh
02:23 < kanzure> oops
02:23 < epitron> 404
02:23 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Scramjet
02:23 < kanzure> try that
02:23 < kanzure> (btw, a scramjet is not a good idea, I've subsequently learned)
02:23 < epitron> do you want an irc search command? :)
02:23 < fenn> well i gotta agree, scramjet is not the best place to start
02:24 < fenn> its like talking about how to build tokamak reactors
02:24 < kanzure> mech0r: What's your ... interest?
02:24 < kanzure> yeah
02:24 < epitron> anyhow, don't sweat it. it's just carmack. and he interfaces with so many people that he'll forget about you in a month ;)
02:24 < kanzure> but not only that, a scramjet generally can't go from ground to orbit
02:24 < fenn> heh it cant go from ground to air
02:24 < kanzure> I was thinking of scramjet + liquid engine on board
02:24 < fenn> you have to drop it from a b-52 just to test
02:24 < mech0r> i have many interests
02:25 < kanzure> fenn: right, but why not just use jet propulsion to get to that height in the first place
02:25 < kanzure> mech0r: indeed?
02:25 < fenn> because then your mass ratio sucks
02:25 < fenn> SSTO is a Hard Problem
02:25 < mech0r> ask epi
02:25 < kanzure> I googlestalked the guy who did the whole X-43A project, found his AOL id.
02:25 < mech0r> he's more awake
02:25 < kanzure> his woman posted to some geneaology forums back in 2006
02:26 < fenn> *drool*
02:31 < fenn> kanzure: if you want an 'actionable' ground to orbit system, check out jordin kare's modular laser launch http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/final_report/897Kare.pdf
02:33 < kanzure> I've heard about this before, but this paper looks nice
02:33 < kanzure> I'm still interested in chemical propellants. I must be old school.
02:33 < fenn> yeah it's been done to death, and it's gone as far as it can
02:33 < kanzure> not true
02:33 < kanzure> the fabrication costs 
02:33 < kanzure> DIY LOX manufacturing
02:33 < kanzure> That'll make things sufficiently different, I think.
02:33 < fenn> LOX is cheap
02:34 < kanzure> no it's not
02:34 < kanzure> $500,000 for enough to get into LEO
02:34 < fenn> compared to the cost of a rocket, it's negligible
02:34 < kanzure> on an average payload
02:34 < kanzure> whatever that means
02:34 < kanzure> and what's the rocket, just mostly metal, some electronics,
02:34 < fenn> yeah
02:34 < kanzure> I bet it's mostly the man hours that are costing really
02:34 < kanzure> don't pull the costing BS on me
02:34 < kanzure> John was complaining about that earlier today ;)
02:34 < fenn> you're right, it is the man hours mostly
02:34 < fenn> there's a whole planet full of dirt and water and air
02:34 < kanzure> "but this will all cost billions of dollars!" and John just laughs and walks away from the funding-source ;)
02:35 < fenn> but you know, there really is a lot of engineering that goes into those rockets
02:35 < kanzure> simulations, testing, re-testing, etc., sure
02:35 < fenn> because that's what the market demands, a high reliability vehicle
02:36 < kanzure> also, they don't design new rockets
02:36 < kanzure> they are doing reuse of old designs
02:36 < kanzure> so some guy was smart enough to make the first one
02:36 < kanzure> and then they said "Hey, let's not risk it"
02:36 < kanzure> they mean "risk money" more than anything
02:36 < kanzure> and "risk man-hours"
02:36 < fenn> well, i dont know what to do about that
02:37 < fenn> did you ever look at thermoacoustics?
02:37 < kanzure> Do it ourselves.
02:37 < kanzure> not yet
02:37 < kanzure> plan to :)
02:37 -!- Andares [n=andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has joined #hplusroadmap
02:37 < kanzure> Hey Andares.
02:37 < kanzure> This is my little hangout ;)
02:37 < Andares> Hey guys/kanzure.
02:37 < Andares> Cool.
02:37 < Andares> What's hplus?
02:37 < fenn> basically you absorb the thermal energy with piezo's, and that cools the gas off until it liquifies
02:37 < kanzure> Andares: Transhumanist, sort of.
02:37 < Andares> Cool.
02:37 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap for hplusroadmap
02:37 < fenn> bs++
02:37 < kanzure> fenn: bs++ where?
02:37 < kanzure> thermoacoustics?
02:37 < Andares> Oh, makes sense. Human+.
02:37 < fenn> all around us
02:38 < kanzure> huh?
02:38 < Andares> kanzure, so, do you think we can escape entropy?
02:38 < fenn> we are living in a sea of bs
02:38 < kanzure> Andares: I am _not_ a negentropist.
02:38 < Andares> What's negentropist?
02:38 < kanzure> http://www.orionsarm.com/polities/Negentropism.html "Entropy is the flaw of the universe" -- Negentropism.
02:39 < Andares> It doesn't bother you that by definition we must die?
02:39 < kanzure> "Ethical philosophy of the Negentropy Alliance; formulated by the AI-cluster known as the Judge. Based on the view is that entropy is the fundamental flaw of the universe, and ethical actions are those that serve to slow or stop the increase of entropy."
02:39 < kanzure> Andares: All things must die, even a being that lives millions of years.
02:39 < Andares> Perhaps.
02:39 < kanzure> ;)
02:39 < Andares> Though.
02:40 < Andares> Seems like we could find a way to alter the universe to keep entropy from taking over.
02:40 < kanzure> I am the opposite of a negentropist: entropy is not a flaw per-se, and I should maximize entropy (do as much as possible).
02:40 < fenn> uh, what if you upload yourself into a non-temporal continuum
02:40 < kanzure> ENTROPY IS NOT DISORDER
02:40 < kanzure> fenn: that's assuming mind-uploading 
02:40 < Andares> It..
02:40 < Andares> fenn, what would you upload to?
02:40 < fenn> kanzure: well, an AI could do it too
02:41 < kanzure> when the hell will we collectively stop capitalizing ai
02:41 < Andares> Anyway, to break the current subject:
02:41 < kanzure> we've been using the phrase for 50 years now
02:41 < fenn> or do you identify as this particular arrangement of atoms (which is continuously being flushed and renewed)
02:41 < Andares> I just rewatched Primer for the 4th time. Excellent movie.
02:41 < kanzure> aren't we tired of typing it?
02:41 < kanzure> Primer?
02:41 < fenn> DIY time travel 
02:41 < Andares> And had a great discussion with my wanna-be-girlfriend's sister's boyfriend on DCM extraction of caffeine. :)
02:42 < kanzure> fenn: Me? I have shady ideas on identity ... don't think it's a useful concept really.
02:42 < Andares> kanzure, an excellent independent film. It's about time travel, but it's not cheesy.
02:42 < Andares> They can only go back to the time where they started the machine.
02:42 < Andares> And it stays close to believable physics.
02:43 < fenn> kanzure: got an alterntaive to "AI" for non-uploaded sentience?
02:43 < kanzure> fenn: possibly replacement scenarios and genome rewriting scenarios, but these might be called uploading
02:43 < Andares> Why not just call it "I?" It's not like implementation matters all that much.
02:44 < kanzure> My real alternative is actually programming
02:44 < fenn> kanzure: no, i mean, a smart computer program that appears for all intents and purposes to be alive
02:44 < kanzure> where I would make something new -- possibly a new child -- and try to tweak the kid to the extent that I would like to
02:44 < kanzure> fenn: I do not have an alternative, no.
02:44 < kanzure> Most of my thoughts on 'intelligence' is wet. 
02:44 < fenn> ok, i'll continue calling it AI
02:44 < kanzure> oh
02:44 < Andares> Oh, speaking of AI.
02:44 < kanzure> you mean a term
02:45 < fenn> yeah
02:45 < Andares> My neural network is so far kind of a disappointment.
02:45 < Andares> It sometimes overflows, and takes FOREVER.
02:45 < kanzure> fenn: non-uploaded sentience; how about in silico intelligence? 
02:45 < kanzure> erm
02:45 < kanzure> that's ambiguous
02:45 < Andares> It took it around 2 days to go through 20k epochs with ~1000 training samples.
02:45 < kanzure> Andares: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Compuational_biology
02:45 < fenn> it's always going to be ambiguous - what's your preferred level of terseness?
02:46 < fenn> me, i'm lazy, and i'm not victorian
02:46 < kanzure> http://minduploading.org/ \o/
02:46 < Andares> Brain uploading.
02:46 < kanzure> I need to go recurse through the comp-matt-sci software packages and then hit bed.
02:47 < Andares> Doesn't seem feasible without totally cloning all the neuron weights.
02:47 < kanzure> Andares: Uh.
02:47 < kanzure> Andares: Seriously, go see computational biology.
02:47 < Andares> So many links. :(
02:47 < kanzure> There's much more to neural networks since the weighted ANN models in the 1960s
02:47 < kanzure> that's what I used to think computational neuroscience was
02:47 < kanzure> but there's been lots of advancements
02:47 < kanzure> some serious shit going on
02:47 < kanzure> ion channel modeling, for one
02:47 < kanzure> http://ionchannels.org/
02:47 < Andares> Ion channels.
02:47  * fenn yawns
02:47 < Andares> reallyyy.
02:47 < Andares> That's neat.
02:48 < fenn> simulated worm excrement
02:48 < kanzure> and then neuropeptide modeling, diffusion models, electricity, piezoelectric modeling of neurons (Superkuh's ideas)
02:48 < Andares> But imho, a little to accurate.
02:48 < fenn> did you know pooping releases dopamines?
02:48 < kanzure> fenn: heh
02:48 < kanzure> fenn: is that why I get so many ideas when
02:48 < kanzure> well
02:48 < kanzure> nevermind.
02:48 < kanzure> My Throne.
02:48 < Andares> fenn, makes sense.
02:49 < fenn> Andares: i just made it up
02:49 < Andares> But it does make sense that some neurotransmitter is released.
02:49 < kanzure> fenn: it makes sense
02:49 < kanzure> heh'
02:49 < Andares> And DA is often used for reinforcement.
02:49 < fenn> sure, holding your breath does all kinds of wild stuff
02:49 < fenn> how are you going to model that?
02:49 < kanzure> that's rather large scale
02:49 < kanzure> I guess we can start with respiratory channel interactions in the lungs
02:50 < kanzure> and then we can move up to the brain oxygen intake via fMRI studies
02:50 < fenn> and before long you have a map the size of the universe
02:50 < Andares> Ooh let's talk about 5HT2A hallucinations!
02:50 < kanzure> let's not
02:50 < Andares> :(
02:50 < kanzure> I need to sleep.
02:50 < Andares> You and your nasty sleeping habit.
02:50 < Andares> I had a bit too much caffeine and thus won't sleep for some hours (currently 2:50AM)
02:50 < fenn> he's a prisoner, regimented schedule and all you know
02:51 < Andares> Ah, right.
02:51 < Andares> fenn, so do you much AI?
02:51 < kanzure> fenn: thanks for understanding, =)
02:51 < fenn> Andares: no
02:51 < kanzure> I mean, damn.
02:51 < fenn> buck up, it's almost over
02:51 < fenn> then you get to do it voluntarily
02:51 < kanzure> I should have ran away.
02:52 < fenn> yeah, you should have taken a train tour of china
02:52 < Andares> fenn, do what?
02:52 < fenn> Andares: intellectual slavery
02:52 < Andares> Oh.
02:52 < Andares> I am a slave. :D
02:53 < Andares> Hm, I wonder if I can manage to get the university to loan me some computer time.
02:53 < fenn> for your simulated blob of goo?
02:53 < Andares> Totallyu.
02:53 < Andares> *-u
02:53 < Andares> Well, I have kind of a cool idea for it.
02:53 < fenn> why is nobody doing hardware implementations?
02:53 < Andares> But it's probably been done.
02:53 < Andares> fenn, bloody hard to do.
02:53 < Andares> But a few people are doing them.
02:53 < fenn> parallel computations go so much faster on dedicated hardware
02:54 < Andares> Especially parallel hardware. :)
02:54 < fenn> right
02:54 < fenn> like a reconfigurable fpga
02:54 < Andares> I was wondering if you could use semiconducting polymers or something.
02:54 < Andares> Though
02:54 < Andares> do those exist?
02:54 < fenn> uh, not really
02:54 < Andares> They'd have to carry electrons somehow, and to do that they couldn't really be.
02:55 < Andares> k, pen and paper time.
02:55 < fenn> there are conductive polymers, and organic semiconductors, but in general they arent production-level
02:56 < Andares> Totally liquid computers would be cool.
02:56 < fenn> how liquid is liquid enough?
02:56 < Andares> Well, some kind of system where you can keep adding goo in.
02:56 < fenn> what's your minimum particle size
02:57 < Andares> *yawn* dunno.
02:57 < fenn> you can make a cluster of 0.5 meter particles already
02:57 < Andares> 0.5 meter?
02:57 < Andares> That's visible. :|
02:57 < fenn> ya
02:57 < Andares> And huge.
02:57 < fenn> pizza box form factor
02:58 < fenn> then there's microcontrollers and zigbee stuff
02:58 < fenn> then rfid tags, although they cant really do much processing
02:58 < Andares> True.
02:59 < Andares> Wonder if you could make logic-gate type things.
02:59 < Andares> Except as artificial neurons.
02:59 < fenn> point is, it's here already, you just arent looking
02:59 < Andares> And then wire those.
03:00 < fenn> that's what an FPGA is
03:00 < Andares> fenn, check Googel.
03:00 < Andares> *Google
03:01 < fenn> say what?
03:01 < Andares> They just changed it.
03:02 < Andares> fenn, what if you had a hardware neural network.
03:02 < fenn> i wish they would say something meaningful
03:02 < Andares> Then a device on top that would somehow modify the weights.
03:02 < fenn> like, 'buy less crap'
03:04 < Andares> fenn, so FPGAs can be modified via software?
03:04 < fenn> or 'support your local alternative energy researcher'
03:04 < fenn> Andares: yes, but in practice they can only be configured all at once
03:04 < Andares> How does that work?
03:05 < fenn> you load a stream of configuration data after resetting the device
03:05 < fenn> beyond that, it's a big mystery
03:05 < Andares> fenn, has anyone ever implemented a neural net on an fpga?
03:06 < fenn> generally, there's a memory cell that controls what type of gate it is, and what bus it's connected to
03:06 < fenn> and what neighbors its connected to
03:06 < fenn> it's not as highly interconnected as a brain though
03:06 < Andares> How efficient is it compared to a hardwired chip?
03:06 < fenn> i dont really follow the neural net scene
03:07 < fenn> compared to an ASIC they are rather slow
03:07 < fenn> each cycle is like a nanosecond or so
03:07 < Andares> hehe, faster than the brain
03:07 < Andares> *.
03:08 < fenn> but it's parallel so that's bloody fast compared to a processor
03:08 < fenn> you can run processors in an FPGA layout, they go up to like 500MHz
03:08 < fenn> or something like that
03:09 < Andares> Argh. A single FPGA is $3k.
03:09 < Andares> (from Altera.)
03:09 < fenn> no, they range crfrom  $10 to $250k
03:10 < fenn> in multiple qty the price goes down to like $3
03:10 < Andares> Oh.
03:10 < Andares> Wait, $3k you mean.
03:10 < fenn> no, three dollars
03:10 < Andares> for an FPGA?
03:11 < Andares> Regular CPU cost more than that, what.
03:11 < fenn> well i didnt say it was a huge powerful fpga
03:12 < fenn> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=122-1218-ND
03:12 < fenn> ^^ example
03:13 < fenn> 15000 gates 5ns delay time
03:13 < Andares> ah
03:14 < fenn> heres a slightly newer chip http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=122-1479-ND
03:14 < Andares> Ah.
03:14 < fenn> so, 100k gates isn't the same as 100k neurons
03:15 < fenn> but it's enough to do a lot of signal processing
03:15 < Andares> Not to mention that neurons are analog-ish.
03:15 < Andares> What kind of logic gates are on that thing?
03:15 < fenn> well, fpga's can be analog too
03:15 < Andares> just or/and/xor?
03:15 < fenn> i read some article where they used a GA to program an FPGA, and it did all kinds of analog stuff they didnt understand
03:16 < Andares> Neat.
03:16 < Andares> I bet I could model a virtual FPGA without too much work.
03:16 < Andares> But!
03:16 < fenn> eh, well, the difference between theory and practice is much bigger in practice
03:17 < Andares> My physical neural network requires time to repair its connections and store memory and stuff.
03:17 < Andares> Night fenn, nice to meet you.
03:18 < fenn> night
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16:32 < epitron> kanzure: well, you can also run into the problem where your information can't be put into a single ontology... for example, if it belongs in two categories.. your only option is to create a new category that's the combination of those two categories.
16:32 < fenn> tags
16:32 < epitron> i mean, ontologies are just data compression
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16:32 < fenn> you're all it!
16:33 < epitron> there are some kinds of information that just can't be compressed easily :)
16:33 < epitron> like a computer program
16:33 < epitron> it's all freakin' cross linked up the wazoo
16:33 < epitron> the only way around is to be able to view it from different angles
16:33 < kanzure> Hey fenn.
16:33 < kanzure> mech0r: yes
16:33 < epitron> where each angle is a fitlered view that can have its own ontology
16:33 < kanzure> mech0r: http://heybryan.org/ has a link to my page
16:34 < epitron> i think that's where neils bohr's famous quote came from
16:34 < epitron> "The opposite of a correct statement is an incorrect statement. The opposite of a profound truth is another profound truth."
16:34 < kanzure> fenn: I've been recursing through molecular dynamics and comp-matt-sci-sims and found http://srdata.nist.gov/cccbdb/ a few minutes ago. Can't figure out where in my ontology to put this. Chem db or something.
16:35 < epitron> the two "profound truths" are just different filtered aspects of the same high-dimensional thing
16:35 < epitron> a thing that we cannot completely hold in our puny brains
16:35 < epitron> :)
16:35 < epitron> (if we could, we wouldn't need to compress the information into ontologies)
16:36 < fenn> epitron: what's more compressed, something written in assembly or something written in lisp?
16:36 < epitron> lisp, bigtime
16:37 < epitron> unless you create an assembly lisp metalanguage
16:37 < epitron> :)
16:37 < epitron> then i guess they're equal
16:37 < kanzure> yet lisp has more overhead
16:37 < kanzure> so I guess you mean that's compression when transferring
16:37 < fenn> assuming they are both 'perfect'
16:37 < epitron> and i suppose you could also create a more entropic language in lisp if you're a massochist
16:37 < kanzure> not in the expression of the program
16:37 < kanzure> epitron: or discordian
16:37 < epitron> :)
16:38 < epitron> i'm just talking about the compression of the information contents of the programs
16:38 < epitron> not the resulting machine code
16:38 < epitron> (information contents = source code)
16:38 < epitron> (and datafiles i suppose)
16:38 < kanzure> http://www.emsl.pnl.gov/forms/basisform.html I don't know what this is.
16:39 < epitron> oh man
16:39 < mech0r> i'm looking at the semiconductor manufacturing haha
16:39 < fenn> i'm guessing basis vectors for their parameter space
16:39 < epitron> i'm asking for a gaussian basis set for my birthday
16:40 < fenn> but how do you 'exchange' them
16:40 < kanzure> mech0r: yeah?
16:40 < kanzure> mech0r: http://heybryan.org/semiconductor.html
16:40 < kanzure> mech0r: I've collected some information on that subject at that ^ link.
16:40 < fenn> A basis set in chemistry is a set of functions used to create the molecular orbitals, 
16:40 < kanzure> Oh?
16:40 < mech0r> yeah i'm looking at thagt
16:41 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basis_set_(chemistry)
16:41 < epitron> the Silicon (Br)/otherhood
16:41 < epitron> haha
16:41 < fenn> sounds like epicycles :\
16:41 < kanzure> Hm, I wonder what sort of functions these are
16:41 < epitron> \o/
16:41 < kanzure> are these Shroeddinger?
16:42 < kanzure> I remember reading a bit about molecular orbital theory
16:42 < kanzure> but I also remember that VSEPR is the better stuff
16:42 < kanzure> plus density functional theory
16:42 < kanzure> Valence Shell Electron Pair Repulsion theory
16:42 < fenn> vsepr is like stuff they teach to babies
16:43 < fenn> with balloons and straws
16:43 < kanzure> ah, Hartfree-Fock == molecular orbital approximations
16:43 < kanzure> oh
16:43 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartree-Fock
16:44 < kanzure> to-read: 
16:44 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab_initio_quantum_chemistry_methods
16:44 < fenn> as usual, wikipedia falls on its face when it comes to math
16:45 < kanzure> good stuff - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_chemistry_computer_programs
16:45 < kanzure> yes
16:45 < fenn> math notation is like powerpoint
16:45 < kanzure> not many articles are good at explaining the connections between different ideas
16:45 < kanzure> hah
16:46 < kanzure> yes, it's just a placeholder really
16:46 < fenn> or like diagrams with no captions
16:46 < kanzure> and they should be explaining it more throoughly
16:46 < epitron> fenn: you ever seen scholarpedia?
16:46 < kanzure> me has
16:46 < epitron> i figured you hvae
16:47 < epitron> you've seen everything :)
16:47 < fenn> epitron: yeah it's bullshit
16:47 < epitron> hahah
16:47 < fenn> what's the point
16:47 < epitron> why is it bullshit?
16:47 < kanzure> it has some good stuff in a few places, but I've used it maybe once, ever
16:47 < fenn> they already have academic journals and reviews and compendiums
16:47 < fenn> the point of wikipedia is lowering the barrier to entry
16:47 < epitron> hmmm
16:47 < kanzure> fenn: I am impressed with Wikipedia on computational chemistry, actually
16:47 < epitron> but how many academic journals define the basics of a concept?
16:47 < kanzure> this looks comprehensive
16:48 < epitron> and wikipedia doesn't really encourage experts to update it
16:48 < fenn> yes they do
16:48 < epitron> i was talking to a professor who's the world expert in a subject, and he didn't want to touch the wikipedia page on it because it was so huge and bloated and wrong
16:48 < kanzure> Oh shit. There goes Opera. 423 tabs.
16:48 < fenn> unless you mean, pay them money
16:48 < epitron> refactoring text is like refactoring code.. it sucks :)
16:49 < epitron> hahah
16:49 < epitron> kanzure: impressive
16:49 < fenn> well, if he doesn't care enough to correct the primary source of information on his subject, that's his mistake
16:49 < epitron> kanzure: have you ever seen http://www.zotero.org/ ?
16:49 < kanzure> you bastard
16:49 < kanzure> giving me a link while Opera is down
16:49 < epitron> fenn: that's not the primary source. it's wikipedia :)
16:49 < kanzure> it's a primary source for us digital natives
16:50 < fenn> epitron: it's the first source people look at
16:50 < kanzure> things are topsie-turny in the internet age
16:50 < fenn> hence, primary source
16:50 < epitron> fenn: and it's not about not CARING... experts are busy people
16:50 < epitron> fenn: it's too much work to fix it
16:50 < fenn> pff
16:50 < kanzure> apparently too busy to fix fundamental knowledge problems
16:50 < fenn> do you know how much work it takes to write a journal article?
16:50 < epitron> a lot :)
16:50 < fenn> those pages and pages of references
16:50 < epitron> but the difference is you get paid usually
16:51 < fenn> well, maybe we should pay them to work on wikipedia instead of something nobody will ever see
16:51 < epitron> well, yeah, but then you have the problem with people reverting their page
16:51 < epitron> wikipedia doesn't really have a good trusted identity system
16:51 < kanzure> epitron: Ah. I opened it up in iceweasel/firefox. Yes, I've seen Zotero, I think I tried it. I dislike it. I don't want anything integrated into my browser (unless that's an extension, an extra part, which I'd gladly accept). Also, I don't want anything integrated into Mozilla's framework as its basis, or web services or anything. I want some *serious* programs. :) Thus, AutoScholar.
16:51 < kanzure> reverting pages doesn't matter
16:51 < kanzure> just keep a copy on your website
16:51 < epitron> kanzure: yeah, i hated the firefox-extension part of that.. but it looks nice
16:51 < epitron> i like the idea :)
16:52 < fenn> the history's still there anyway
16:52 < epitron> it saves the pages to your hard drive too
16:52 < fenn> wikipedia's a giant revision control system
16:52 < epitron> for permanent archival
16:52 < kanzure> epitron: So, did I ever explain to you my ideal paper-reading scenario?
16:52 < epitron> nope :)
16:52 < kanzure> I've been brainstorming for the past few years about a better way to read papers and absorb information.
16:52 < kanzure> Now, if Enki-2 was in here, he'd have a few things to say about his xu88 project (he's implementing Project Xanadu in prolog)
16:52 < kanzure> but anyway, the idea is that it's computationally complex to retrieve a paper
16:52 < fenn> kanzure: get a grad slave to summarize it for you :)
16:52 < kanzure> as in, you have to go click through 8 different links to get to a single paper
16:53 < kanzure>  but ideally you can just autofetch with AutoScholar as an apt-get system for knowledge
16:53 < epitron> fenn: man, wikipedia's history for each page is usually huge... and hard to navigate... i.e. big changes and little changes look identical in the history view :)
16:53 < kanzure> and then you can "digest it" with minimized computational complexity
16:53 < fenn> epitron: there's a number of lines changed number (number!)
16:53 < kanzure> supposedly this digestion process is one of **refactoring**
16:53 < kanzure> I do not mind refactoring as long as it's positive progress
16:53 < kanzure> Now, most papers are in a PDF,
16:53 < epitron> fenn: but when you're scanning 50 pages of history, you want to have to read every single line?
16:53 < kanzure> so you have to click back and forth between PDF and an HTML page or something
16:54 < epitron> fenn: why not use colour coding or font size or something to represent the size of the change
16:54 < epitron> fenn: or colour coding to show reverts
16:54 < epitron> or SOMETHING :)
16:54 < kanzure> and that destracts from refactoring itself, which sucks, so I've decided I want kolourpaint+kpdf+kwrite all wrapped into one for an editing system to digest content.
16:54 < fenn> epitron: ok, maybe you should tell it to #wikipedia
16:54 < kanzure> not even that
16:54 < kanzure> that's an easy script
16:54 < kanzure> Wikipedia gives 130 GB data dumps daily
16:54 < kanzure> also see ##wikipeding for group-based collaboration on reading wikipedia
16:55 < epitron> hmm
16:55 < fenn> what, do diffs on the database dump? are there tools for extracting it back into a reasonable format like text files?
16:55 < epitron> so you want a streamlined knowledge-condensation pipeline?
16:55 < kanzure> fenn: something like that; epitron mentions other things like trying to figure out how much of a change, so I guess it could be text-based. I would like access to Amazon's "statistically unlikely phrases" tools so that we can do something like that. :)
16:56 < kanzure> epitron: Yes. I want to break up the images from the PDF directly and then allow rapid commentary, linking, doodling, connections, etc., not necessarily in any well-defined format, just something that can be (1) presented and (2) quickly made in real time (not necessarily edited later ... heh)
16:56 < kanzure> with minimal computational-complexity/clickage/eye-averting-movements
16:56 < fenn> kanzure: sounds like you want to get the original latex source? because it's (supposedly) like SGM
16:56 < fenn> SGML*
16:56 < epitron> have you ever read about Danny Hillis' idea for a next-geneartion emergent knowledge tool?
16:56 < epitron> http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/hillis04/hillis04_index.html
16:57 < epitron> oops
16:57 < epitron> that's the addendum :)
16:57 < epitron> sec
16:57 < kanzure> Hrm. That'd be nice. But I don't mean like that. I don't care how the authors represented their data, I want to be able to quickly scratch out my own representations of the same information into various data structures, with a simple keyboard-interface. I.e., hit "j" to come up with a new table, then select image-areas to add into that table, and that's added to your page.
16:58 < kanzure> epitron: re: emergent knowledge tool, see Gunkel and ideonomy. David mentioned this guy to me the other day. http://ideonomy.mit.edu/ read the one that says Austin, TX, or just skim over it really
16:58 < epitron> oh wait, it's the right page :)
16:58 < epitron> nevermind
16:58 < epitron> you just have t scroll past the crap
16:58 < epitron> look for the word "introduction" :)
16:58 < kanzure> I also want to do automated citation/references so that I can download all of the papers related to some new field, and then read those as quickly as I want.
16:58 < fenn> gunkel is funny, it's like automated creativity.. a monte carlo method in some weird space
16:59 < kanzure> yes
16:59 < kanzure> epitron: Hillis seems to believe in information overload. 
17:00 < kanzure> The problem is not the information; the problem is us.
17:00 < epitron> i think you should read this :)
17:00 < kanzure> fenn: I was trying to talk with him to see how he figured it out.
17:00 < kanzure> epitron: I am 
17:00 < epitron> you're already judging
17:00 < kanzure> fenn: In other words, how did he do all that he did? He made many thousands of documents and so on, how'd he do this? It must have taken him hours of painstaking work. Unless he's an autist. But I emailed him and I looked at the way he writes and talks, chances are that he's not.
17:01 < kanzure> Not "extremely autistic", but perhaps partially in the repetition sense, but really.
17:01 < fenn> i havent even looked at the page yet, but just from the url "3rd_culture" sets off my wank detector
17:01 < kanzure> fenn: it's a good book
17:01 < kanzure> fenn: third culture just refers to traveling scientists
17:01 < epitron> god you guys are so judgy :)
17:01 < mech0r> kick them in the nads.
17:01 < epitron> that's why you're here
17:01 < fenn> epitron: it's my mechanism of perception, not active judgement
17:02 < kanzure> epitron: re: learning tools see http://supermemo.com as well as http://supermemo.com/articles/genius.htm or http://supermemo.com/articles/genius.html
17:02 < epitron> fenn: it's laziness is what it is :)
17:02 < fenn> yes
17:02 < fenn> how else am i going to keep up with all you supernerds
17:02 < kanzure> epitron: I'm pretty sure we should get Enki-2 back in here before we talk about Hillis' knowledge web ideas
17:02 < epitron> haha
17:02 < epitron> ok
17:03 < epitron> as long as we can all discuss in an orderly manner
17:03 < kanzure> also ... Joram Zutt. He wanted some automated teaching systems. He had some support from the World Bank last I checked.
17:03 < epitron> (that's a lot of people talkign at once)
17:04 < epitron> oh god
17:04 < mech0r> (so what's going on)
17:04 < epitron> world-bank funded automatic teaching machine
17:04 < epitron> that sounds like brainwashing :)
17:04 < fenn> "while jimmy wales' bazaar flourished and prospered, i continued to be stuck in my rut, plugging away at my cathedral..'
17:05 < kanzure> epitron: Joram Zutt was doing a self-replicator via atom holography. http://heybryan.org/projects/atoms/
17:05 < kanzure> So he wanted (1) on-board nuclear fusion power source, (2) datalink, (3) computation & teaching, (4) atom holography.
17:05 < epitron> hahahaha
17:06 < epitron> that's a bit "out there"
17:06 < kanzure> yep
17:06 < kanzure> obviously I took up his ideas on atom holography
17:06 < epitron> i'm glad he's wasting world bank money on it
17:06 < kanzure> don't know about nuclear fusion power sources
17:06 < kanzure> well, he had support via a professor that recently died of cancer
17:06 < kanzure> which was learning-oriented more than anything else
17:07 < kanzure> I found Zutt by seeing a weird comment on Slashdot, by The_Laughing_God, and then going off to search for the Laughing God on the internet, only to find Zutt making fun of him on his website, so I clicked around and found his Bazaar Project C.
17:07 < fenn> there's a lot of unexplored territory re: fusion reactors
17:07 < kanzure> sure
17:07 < kanzure> Zutt's interest was in magnetically confined fusion reactors
17:07 < kanzure> which seems like an interesting way to do it
17:07 < kanzure> you have some massive plasma ball of flame, you use magnets to confine it
17:07 < fenn> that's the standard way to do it
17:07 < kanzure> ah
17:07 < fenn> it doesn't really work
17:08 < kanzure> I believe the project was LDX@MIT
17:08 < epitron> kanzure: robert bussard was working on that too
17:08 < fenn> after a terabuck and 50 years they now know exactly why it wont work
17:08 < epitron> for 11 years
17:08 < epitron> and made it work :)
17:08 < kanzure> yes, then he died
17:08 < kanzure> that bastard
17:08 < epitron> he died??
17:08 < kanzure> Bussard? yes
17:08 < epitron> WTF
17:08 < epitron> bastard!
17:08 < kanzure> right after he got Navy funding for his ramjet.
17:09 < fenn> ramjet?
17:09 < epitron> mannn
17:09 < kanzure> wait
17:09 < epitron> what happened to his research?
17:09 < fenn> oh, the interstellar collector thing is totally separate
17:09 < epitron> i bet it was stolen and burned
17:09 < fenn> epitron: it's being continued by space-x i think
17:09 < epitron> did you ever see his google talk on magnetic confinement fusion?
17:09 < kanzure> maybe it was his tokamak or polywell
17:09 < kanzure> epitron: no, link please?
17:09 < fenn> polywell is bussard's baby
17:09 < epitron> really??
17:09 < epitron> it was revolutionary
17:09 < kanzure> there's a good discussion forum on polywell
17:09 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/forums.html has a link to polywell-forums
17:10 < epitron> yeah, it's the polywell
17:10 < kanzure> http://www.talk-polywell.org/bb/index.php
17:10 < epitron> that's the one he was talking about
17:10 < kanzure> here we go
17:10 < fenn> nobody knows anything about polywell except bussard's teams.. how can they have a forum on it
17:10 < epitron> bussard had like 500000 pages of research papers he'd generated in 11 years working at the navy
17:10 < mech0r> oh god...
17:10 < mech0r> TOO MANY LINKS
17:11 < kanzure> fenn: heh
17:11 < epitron> i know :)
17:11 < epitron> i wish these guys would summarize instead of linking
17:11 < kanzure> mech0r: I have over 12,000 in my bookmarks, and then I browse at least 500/day. 
17:11 < mech0r> what the hell 
17:11 < mech0r> go outside and play
17:11 < fenn> epitron: are you sure about that?
17:11 < epitron> hahaha
17:11 < kanzure> because if we don't link then you don't know where it is
17:11 < epitron> fenn: about what
17:11 < fenn> rather a summary than a link
17:11 < kanzure> a link is like a direct-access click to becoming better
17:11 < fenn> i can sit here and spout bs all day if you like
17:11 < epitron> while 5000000 links is like cache-thrashing :)
17:11 < mech0r> i'm not even loggint the chan usebhfsef
17:12 < kanzure> ?
17:12 < kanzure> usebhfsef?
17:12 < mech0r> yes.
17:12 < mech0r> exactly
17:12 < kanzure> what's it?
17:12 < epitron> it's ok everyone else is
17:12 < epitron> :)
17:12 < kanzure> epitron: there's a reason why academic papers have refs and links ;)O
17:12 < mech0r> it is exactly what it looks like
17:12 < kanzure> mech0r: ah
17:12 < epitron> kanzure: yes but academic papers are usually like, "There is a way to blow up frogs using nucleosynthesis [11]"
17:12 < epitron> and then you know what 11 is about without READING IT
17:13 < epitron> without disturbing the state of your short term memory
17:13 < kanzure> I see.
17:13 < kanzure> I guess fenn and I must have superior short term memory functionality then
17:13 < epitron> haha
17:13 < kanzure> because it's pretty easy for me to be able to go off on tangents and return successfully
17:13 < kanzure> that's how I do recursing through the internet
17:13 < kanzure> otherwise I'd just lose my way
17:13 < epitron> well you need to get over a hump in an area to be able to do that
17:13 < fenn> i try to actually read the line before the link, it usually has a summary
17:14 < epitron> you're giving me link to shit i've never even heard about before
17:14 < epitron> and it's not a summary, it's a 100 page detailed research paper
17:14 < fenn> epitron: welcome to the 21st century
17:14 < fenn> i suggest googling words you dont know, wikipeding
17:14 < epitron> i don't even know which direction i'm pointed when i read it ;)
17:14 < kanzure> the idea is to find stuff that you never heard of
17:14 < epitron> haha
17:14 < kanzure> that's the whole freaking point
17:14 < epitron> and i'm not saying there's anything wrong with that
17:14 < kanzure> why would you want to find something you already know about
17:14 < kanzure> you should know where that is ;)
17:14 < epitron> i'm saying that flooding someone with that is annoying
17:15 < epitron> SIGH
17:15 < fenn> kanzure: it's comforting to most people
17:15 < epitron> not something i already know about
17:15 < epitron> ok
17:15 < fenn> kanzure: you have to remember this is a learned behavior
17:15 < kanzure> fenn: what you and I do?
17:15 < fenn> whereas you are a 'natural' i guess
17:15 < kanzure> this is true
17:15 < epitron> when you're reading about NUCLEOBIOCHRONOSYNESTHESIA, you already know a bit about nucleobionetics and cyberchronodynamics, so it's easy to scan
17:15 < kanzure> but I don't remember learning this per-se
17:15 < kanzure> you know what, maybe I do
17:16 < epitron> it's not about ALREADY KNOWING IT
17:16 < kanzure> I remember that for many years I was staying in the same places on the internet
17:16 < epitron> it's about being familiar with the concept-space
17:16 < kanzure> and so I learned to do rapid clicking on certain features
17:16 < kanzure> and then I extrapoliated from there when moving to new programs
17:16 < fenn> epitron: see that's why i hate biology papers, they aren't made of latin roots. it's all people's stuffed animal names and totally made up words
17:16 < kanzure> because it was easy to see what problems were showing up in the "toolchain"
17:16 < epitron> fenn: hey you know what's good.. english roots :)
17:16 < kanzure> hurray, Opera crashed again
17:16 < fenn> epitron: and once you understand a few key concepts, it's all very easy
17:16 < epitron> disable plugins/javascript
17:17 < epitron> fenn: exactly
17:17 < epitron> nevermind
17:17 < epitron> i'm basically trying to teach you guys to teach and you don't wanna learn ;)
17:17 < kanzure> oh
17:17 < kanzure> well
17:17 < kanzure> what do you want us to teach?
17:17 < fenn> those concepts include: logic, abstraction, wave theory, empiricism
17:17 < epitron> kanzure: nevermind, i've already forgotten what brought me here
17:18 < kanzure> btw, a good reason for us to not teach is because we don't have a full overview of all of the information yet
17:18 < epitron> it was just the general idea of making the conversations more compact and ordered and simple
17:18  * fenn highfives kanzure for successfully overwhelming epitron
17:18 < epitron> instead of BLAH BLAH BLAH *50000 links*
17:18 < epitron> more focus
17:18 < epitron> pfft :)
17:18 < epitron> that's not hard
17:18 < epitron> my short term memory sucks
17:18 < kanzure> *MORE* focus?
17:18 < fenn> you do jump around a lot
17:19 < epitron> yeah
17:19 < kanzure> that might be true, but there are subtle connections that are worth observing
17:19 < kanzure> and actually
17:19 < epitron> you're very tangential kanzure :)
17:19 < kanzure> I'd prefer it if you guys call me on it when I jump
17:19 < epitron> ok
17:19 < epitron> i can do that
17:19 < epitron> i have a friend who does that too
17:19 < mech0r> totally isn't me.
17:19 < epitron> when i'm talking to him in person he can't paste me links though :)
17:19 < fenn> compchem browsers wiki semantic-web fusion all in the last hour
17:19 < kanzure> I am fairly certain that I do not jump; most of my thoughts and actions are very tightly integrated together
17:19 < kanzure> fenn: yeah
17:20 < kanzure> fenn: but those jumps were due to epitron, not me
17:20 < kanzure> I didn't bring up semantic webbing
17:20 < kanzure> but I did bring up autoscholar and eating articles re: the computational chem stuff in the first place
17:20 < epitron> kanzure: well, it depends on what the goal is. if the goal is a breadth-first communication of all knowledge you contain, then jumping is good. if you want to plan something, or discuss some kind of actionable direction, then jumping is bad :)
17:20 < kanzure> and the reason why we brought up computational chem on Wikipedia was because we are looking into the modeling software to narrow the search space
17:21 < kanzure> if I recall correctly, epitron was the one with the Wikipedia tangent ;)
17:21 < epitron> haha
17:21 < epitron> yeah
17:21 < epitron> i didn't intend it to be a tangent
17:21 < kanzure> right, we were already discussing the actionable item though
17:21 < epitron> i just wanted to make a little remark under my breath
17:21 < fenn> i'm too stubborn to scroll back and actually look
17:21 < epitron> :)
17:21 < epitron> but then fenn started questioning it
17:21 < epitron> and i had to explain it
17:21 < kanzure> fenn and I are figuring that we should go look for some software and narrow the search space for skdb and self-replication
17:22 < fenn> that's not what i think at all
17:22 < kanzure> which reminds me, I still don't know what particular functional parameters we need to search for / constrain in the first place (it's not the "properties" of materials that material scientists are playing with)
17:22 < epitron> what's skdb?
17:22 < kanzure> epitron: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Skdb -- a database of material projects
17:22 < kanzure> fenn: please explain
17:22 < fenn> predictive modeling of material properties is a big waste of time, especially since it totally ignores the economics of making said material
17:22 < kanzure> we don't need to *model* but rather generate
17:22 < fenn> same thing
17:23 < kanzure> so that we can know what materials we need that fit the specs for self-replication
17:23 < kanzure> then what's the alternative to knowing what to do
17:23 < fenn> you have a model of how atoms interact and how that gives rise to bulk properties
17:23 < fenn> er, that's not the alternative ^^
17:23 < fenn> the alternative is gathering the societal engineering knowledge that's already out there
17:24 < kanzure> the models are the knowledge
17:25 < epitron> hmmm
17:25 < epitron> what does "societal engineering" mean?
17:25 < fenn> societal = in society at large
17:25 < fenn> like, no single person knows all of it
17:25 < epitron> distributed ?engineering 
17:25 < kanzure> epitron: If we asked you to go make an analog circuit to do basic math, could you do it off the top of your head, from first principles?
17:25 < epitron> probably not
17:25 < kanzure> epitron: Chances are, the answer is no. Most of this knowledge has been "intuited" from many, many experiments that people have gathered all over the world. 
17:25 < epitron> unless i was given a lot of time :)
17:26 < epitron> right
17:26 < fenn> even if you had a lot of time, you might get stuck in a rut forever
17:26 < epitron> emergent knowledge :D
17:26 < kanzure> especially in the case of chemistry, we just can't magically predict that certain materials can fit in our dependency loops (I think)
17:26  * fenn rolls his eyes.. emergence.. fooey
17:26 < epitron> synergetics!
17:26 < epitron> :D
17:26 < kanzure> yeah, so our idea is to collect the emergent model and apply it to make the design for the self-replicator
17:26 < kanzure> *the emergent knowledge
17:27 < epitron> ok
17:27 < kanzure> oh
17:27 < kanzure> fenn: I see
17:27 < epitron> so it's like danny hillis' knowledge web kinda
17:27 < fenn> wait.. huh? what's "the emergent model"?
17:27 < kanzure> fenn: I just forgot about my conclusions on skdb; you're right, we do have to bruteforce it. Like I was saying earlier. I must have forgotten what I was thinking. Sorry. Any room for computational models in the database anyway?
17:27 < kanzure> fenn: note I said "emergent knowledge"
17:27 < kanzure> fenn: I corrected myself.
17:27 < fenn> what's the emergent knowledge
17:27 < kanzure> the stuff we are gathering
17:28 < epitron> do you know what emergence is?
17:28 < fenn> epitron: no, actually
17:28 < epitron> haha
17:28 < fenn> it seems to be one of those words that's impossible to define
17:28 < epitron> so you phooeyd it because you didn't know it?
17:28 < kanzure> fenn: it's the societal knowledge, that's what I mean.
17:28 < epitron> it's not at all
17:28 < epitron> people just throw it around
17:28 < kanzure> anyway, 
17:28 < epitron> here's a simpel example of emergent behaviour
17:28 < fenn> i phooeyed it because it's a buzzword that doesnt mean anything
17:28 < epitron> BEES and FLOWERS
17:28 < fenn> COEVOLUTION
17:28 < kanzure> emergence/mutation/insight are all on the same level
17:28 < epitron> yes
17:28 < epitron> or mass behaviour of bacterial colonies
17:29 < epitron> each bacterium only obeys local rules
17:29 < fenn> epitron: find me an organism that isn't co-evolved
17:29 < kanzure> re: insight, http://heybryan.org/thinking.html
17:29 < epitron> but all the local rules combine to create more complex global behaviour of the colony
17:29 < epitron> that's emergent behaviour
17:29 < fenn> epitron: find something, anythign at all, that isnt emergent
17:29 < epitron> when two organisms' co-adaptation creates a higher-level structure
17:29 < epitron> sigh
17:29 < epitron> i'm just explaining what the word means
17:29 < epitron> it is a useful term
17:29 < fenn> no, it isnt
17:30 < epitron> well how would you have expressed this without the word: 17:26 < kanzure> yeah, so our idea is to collect the emergent model and apply it to make the design for the self-replicator
17:30 < fenn> so, you will continue saying emergent and i will continue asking you precisely what you mean
17:30 < kanzure> okay,
17:30 < kanzure> so without the word 'emergent'
17:30 < epitron> i want fenn to try :)
17:30 < epitron> he's going to realize it's hard
17:30 < kanzure> no he's not
17:30 < epitron> haha
17:30 < kanzure> he knows a good way to reword it
17:30 < kanzure> and he's already used it to some extent
17:30 < epitron> well, what word does fenn like?
17:30 < kanzure> 'societal' ;)
17:30 < fenn> epitron: i dont know what he meant because the words didnt convey enough information
17:31 < epitron> ._o
17:31 < kanzure> that's why we called it skdb
17:31 < epitron> but societal means too many things
17:31 < kanzure> fenn: so, I want to get back on topic for just a sec
17:31 < epitron> in  societal
17:31 < epitron>        adj : relating to human society and its members; "social
17:31 < epitron>              institutions"; "societal evolution"; "societal forces";
17:31 < epitron>              "social legislation" [syn: {social}]
17:31 < epitron> emergent is a more focussed term
17:31 < epitron> it just means "greater than the sum of the parts"
17:31 < fenn> that's what synergy means
17:32 < epitron> bucky has better more technical terms in his book synergetics
17:32 < epitron> :)
17:32 < kanzure> fenn: I realized (again) that modeling isn't necessarily going to be the most useful approach, so if we want to throw in various materials and their interactions with each other, who's to say that this information is useful as well? 
17:32 < kanzure> Material properties are near meaningless for what we want to do ... we don't care what the properties do, as long as they allow the dependency-loop to be stable.
17:33 < fenn> kanzure: right, that's what i mean by 'economics'
17:33 < kanzure> huh?
17:33 < kanzure> economics == money stuff?
17:33 < kanzure> how does that come into this?
17:33 < fenn> the dependency loop is the cost
17:33 < kanzure> I don't get it.
17:33 < fenn> cost of complexity, cost of material scarcity
17:33 < kanzure> that's not what I am talking about at all
17:33 < kanzure> stability in the sense of functioanlity
17:33 < kanzure> *functionality
17:33 < kanzure> I don't care how much it costs to make the machine
17:34 < kanzure> how much other people 'value' the materials and other BS like that
17:34 < fenn> that's not what i mean at all
17:34 < kanzure> instead?
17:34 < fenn> i'm picturing a clanking replicator sitting in a clay pit
17:34 < kanzure> right
17:34 < fenn> if you come up with some material made out of rare earth metals and liquid helium, what good does it do the replicator?
17:35 < kanzure> you just said "come up with some material"
17:35 < kanzure> so are we back to material modeling again?
17:35 < kanzure> or not?
17:36 < fenn> 'if your comp-chem material finder program' comes up with..
17:36 < fenn> i guess you could seed the search space with raw materials that are available
17:36 < kanzure> I thought that's what we were talking about when we mentioned constraining search space
17:37 < kanzure> for our programs.
17:38 < fenn> i just think it's too much like 'AI'
17:38 < fenn> if you give a bunch of ants parts to make a bridge, and show them how to do it, they arent going to build a bridge
17:38 < fenn> computers are similar
17:39 < kanzure> we can constrain the parts-space, and then we can constrain the functionality-space to certain types of functionality that allow the materials to process each other
17:39 < kanzure> which would mean that the ants would focus on certain functions of the parts, not certain 'properties' of the parts (like, this one is red)
17:40 < fenn> ok, what are the 'functions' of raw materials then?
17:40 < kanzure> my guess is the same batch processing reactions found in extractive metallurgy
17:40 < kanzure> which is what we need so that we can find which materials can make which for our d-loops
17:41 < kanzure> (you mentioned last night that many such batch methods are based off of each other for inspiration anyway)
17:41 < fenn> this has a bit of fractal nature to it
17:41 < kanzure> recursion wouldn't be replication
17:42 < kanzure> would it?
17:42 < fenn> the functionality available depends on which materials are available, and the materials available depend on which processes are available
17:43 < kanzure> the functionality available of the final machine depends on which materials are present in the final machine, and the materials that built in are dependent on which processes are available due to the functionality of the final machine, which would be used to generate more functionality for a second machine
17:43 < kanzure> same thing, said with more expressive terminology
17:43 < fenn> but more than that, you have to know what you're going to do with the materials before you even know what they are
17:44 < kanzure> right, then you have to find materials that can match those "functional-specs" 
17:44 < kanzure> but those functional-specs are broad
17:44 < kanzure> since they depend on the materials
17:44 < fenn> i think there's circular logic in there, not just recursion
17:44 < kanzure> the functional-specs for replication with clay and sand etc. is constrained in comparison to functional-specs with say all minerals
17:45 < kanzure> so we have circular logic, recursion, fractals, d-loops, ...
17:45 < fenn> where is this all rooted? if it isn't rooted somewhere it's just a big fractal loop that is impossible to get to
17:46 < kanzure> is it rooted at the starting materials that *we* (the First Builders) give to it?
17:46 < kanzure> or do you mean a root in the abstraction?
17:46 < fenn> i mean, it connects to reality somewhere (or it doesnt)
17:46 < kanzure> I wonder if nonrooted systems can be designed
17:46 < kanzure> it connects to reality re: its environment
17:47 < fenn> there might be some uber-cool nano diamond mechanosynthesis replicator, but i dont know how to get there from here
17:48 < fenn> not just 'reality' (which is an abstraction) but the present, you and me and anyone else that's listening
17:48 < kanzure> please elaborate
17:48 < kanzure> it's certainly relevant to our projects
17:49 < fenn> well, if it were 1750 and we were in our laboratory, i could say 'look around, jenkins, these are the materials we have to work with'
17:49 < fenn> but the world's becomes considerably more abstract and fluid since then
17:49 < kanzure> but in the 1750s lab, you can't necessarily prove that those materials can be assembled in some combination to make a replicator
17:49 < fenn> i can have any chemical or device drop-shipped by tomorrow, if i can convince a certain person it's a good idea
17:50 < fenn> on the other hand, i do have a bunch of junk in my lab
17:50 < fenn> the reason i wanted autogenix was so i can say 'heres the junk i have, can i make this?'
17:51 < kanzure> but you have to be able to specify all material properties, functional properties, and on and on and on
17:51 < fenn> not 'all'
17:51 < fenn> it's not a mathematical proof, it's just a formalization
17:51 < kanzure> it seems that autogenix would be best for already designed projects
17:51 < kanzure> h,
17:52 < fenn> i would use a 555 as it's intended (a one-shot) even though the transistors as they are arranged are capable of doing weird op-amp stuff
17:52 < fenn> i dont expect a computer to come up with analog circuitry
17:53 < fenn> i DO expect it to be able to put together functional parts like digital circuitry
17:53 < kanzure> in the case of digital circuitry, all circuits are really just proposition statements and then some processing to compute a result
17:53 < fenn> if i dont tell it that some particular shape in an aluminum block is a microwave cavity, it's not going to figure that out
17:54 < kanzure> in our replicator design task, it's more than just 'logic' since the propositions are 'inputs' and the output has to be the entire proposition-deciding engine
17:54 < kanzure> yeah
17:54 < kanzure> *since the propositions are 'inputs' (materials)
17:54 < fenn> (although someone might write a libmicrowave module to do that)
17:55 < fenn> more than just materials, any design that already exists, no?
17:56 < kanzure> huh?
17:56 < kanzure> for starters, a replicator that can take input materials and make itself is good
17:56 < fenn> i propose that this assemblage of wires and glass is a computer
17:57 < fenn> autogenix is the logic engine
17:58 < kanzure> oh
17:58 < kanzure> I was talking about the replicator itself, the inputs to the replicator are materials
17:58 < fenn> libmicrowave is a simulator, it generates statements about the functionality of a certain shaped conductor
17:58 < kanzure> but if you are asserting that the replicator itself has to be autogenix, then that's interesting
17:59 < fenn> no, that' snot what i meant
17:59 < fenn> there needs to be some defined interface between autogenix (clear defined functionality) and a material property simulator
18:01 < kanzure> what part of autogenix are we talking about
18:01 < kanzure> the database that lists packages?
18:02 < kanzure> the package-finder to find packages that have certain properties?
18:02 < fenn> the package-finder
18:03 < fenn> i think
18:04 < fenn> there's a big pool of packages, one strategy is to build every possible tree based on the functionality of the packages (forward chaining)
18:04 < fenn> the other strategy is to pick the goal and find packages that provide that functionality until we get back to something that we already have or that satisfies our optimization constraints
18:05 < kanzure> one way to do it might be to first find the longest path, and then cut down on packages to simplify it to some necessary extent
18:06 < fenn> how do you simplify it? why not just pick the shortest path first?
18:06 < kanzure> so we need to grow the database like crazy, then find longest path, then cut back, get back a list of "requested packages" that might make things easier
18:06 < kanzure> I suppose you could
18:06 < fenn> or pick 'a' path
18:06 < kanzure> I thought that we wanted more dependencies, so that we can ensure that we probably have a possible machine within it?
18:06 < fenn> then find the local minimum
18:08 < fenn> you could walk down the dependency trees randomly, leaving bread crumbs
18:08 < kanzure> log files?
18:08 < fenn> no, just an algorithm
18:08 < fenn> to find the loops that may be replicators
18:09 < kanzure> a bread crumb = algorithm?
18:09 < fenn> bread crumb is a piece of data in RAM that says 'i've already been down this path'
18:10 < fenn> you're assuming that a path from A to B exists
18:10 < fenn> and that you can just 'see' it
18:10 < fenn> but a computer doesnt know that
18:10 < kanzure> ah, okay, a path finding algorithm is easy though
18:11 < kanzure> these have been proven
18:11 < kanzure> but we need to be able to make a 'path' in the first place
18:11 < kanzure> and this will be based off of something in computational materials modeling
18:11 < fenn> not necessarily
18:11 < kanzure> I still doubt it's the *properties* of the materials that we need to model
18:11 < kanzure> but rather the functionality.
18:11 < kanzure> whatever that means
18:11 < fenn> you are assuming that you have to create the material properties and thus 'functionality' from first principles
18:11 < fenn> which i think is probably impossible
18:11 < fenn> but we have huge databases of parts and materials and their properties already
18:12 < fenn> and those databases are based on the real world, empirical data
18:12 < kanzure> right, I don't care if we don't do it from first principles
18:12 < andares> Hi guys.
18:12 < kanzure> can you show me a database that, say, has a formalized entry for clay + sand batch processing already?
18:12 < kanzure> that's the sort of 'functionality' that I am referring to.
18:12 < fenn> no, i dont know anything about geology or even if such a database exists
18:12 < kanzure> didn't you just say we have databases of parts already ?
18:12 -!- zedrdave [n=zedrdave@dan75-1-87-88-125-171.dsl.club-internet.fr] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:12 < kanzure> that do these things?
18:13 < fenn> yeah but nobody is interested in making replicators
18:13 < andares> Why not?
18:13 < fenn> or digging in the dirt
18:13 < fenn> because nobody's ever made a replicator
18:13 -!- zedrdave [n=zedrdave@dan75-1-87-88-125-171.dsl.club-internet.fr] has left #hplusroadmap []
18:13 < andares> Well, they've made replicator-like things.
18:13 < andares> Like those new 3d inkjet printers.
18:13 < andares> Though those are far from optimal.
18:13 < fenn> well, things are changing i guess
18:13 < fenn> hence why we're here
18:14 < andares> fenn, I looked up fpgas yesterday.
18:14 < andares> After you were talking.
18:14 < epitron> FPGAs! \o/
18:14 < fenn> by 'nobody' i mean, huge decades-old organizations with more money than they know what to do with, have not made databases relevant to building replicators from raw minerals
18:14 < kanzure> Hi zedrdave -- I noticed you mentioned an interest in ai, comp sci, and bio. At the moment we're discussing http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Self-replication
18:14 < kanzure> blah, he left
18:14 < kanzure> fenn: ah
18:14 < andares> epitron, have you done any work with them?
18:14 < epitron> not really.. just VLSI simulation
18:15 < epitron> and lots of thinking about what could be done with them :)
18:15 < andares> fenn, is it possible to make a neural network that uses fpga nodes though, instead of complex activation functions?
18:15 < kanzure> sure
18:15 < andares> Well, using commonly-available FPGAs.
18:15 < kanzure> fenn: so, I still don't know what this sort of data would look like
18:15 < fenn> andares: i have no idea
18:15 < kanzure> I don't even know where to collect it
18:15 < andares> For instance, I'm not sure how you'd do neural weights.
18:16 -!- zedrdave [n=zedrdave@dan75-1-87-88-125-171.dsl.club-internet.fr] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:16 < andares> You'd need a variable transistor or something, no?
18:16 < epitron> neural nets are probably better suited for the more complex chips... the one where they have many tiny units that do a more complex function than an fpga gate
18:16 < fenn> andares: frankly, i think neural networks is crap pseudo-science, but i probably shouldnt tell you that
18:16 < epitron> and they have better routing too :)
18:16 < kanzure> Hi zedrdave -- I noticed you mentioned an interest in ai, comp sci, and bio. At the moment we're discussing http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Self-replication -- which I plan to help boostrap intelligence augmentation later, a subject close to ai
18:16 < andares> fenn, well, ANNs might be, but they've been put to productive use.
18:16 < kanzure> andares: please go read up on computational neuroscience first 
18:16 < epitron> it's not nerual nets, it's backprop that sucks :)
18:17 < epitron> the training algorithm is everything
18:17 < andares> epitron, moreso the computational limits of conventional computers.
18:17 < fenn> andares: you might not be aware that transistors are analog devices
18:17 < andares> The training algorithm works okay.
18:17 < kanzure> andares: I'd teach you myself, but I haven't really sufficiently explored it all yet
18:17 < andares> fenn, I am aware.
18:17 < epitron> the training algorithm has been proven to be very limited :)
18:17 < andares> kanzure, I'm continuing to look it up.
18:17 < epitron> mathematically equivalent to something else well understood and also limited
18:17 < andares> epitron, true, I tried to train a net to square numbers, which failed.
18:17 < epitron> andares: you should look into restricted boltzmann machines
18:17 < kanzure> andares: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Computational_biology -- you can go play with GENESIS today or something, that should be loads of fun 
18:17 < epitron> oh i remember now
18:17 < andares> Then asked some AI people, who ranted at me that "it wasn't a practical application."
18:18 < andares> Oh, hopfield nets.
18:18 < andares> fun.
18:18 < epitron> the problem with neural nets is that: a) they're VERY SLOW to train many layers, and b) they need LOTS OF LABELLED DATA... like.. millions of labels
18:18 < fenn> once, i tried to peel hardboiled eggs with a sledgehammer..
18:18 < andares> epitron, that's a problem of the hardware though, not the math.
18:18 < epitron> restricted boltzmann machines are awesome because they use the data itself as the labelled data
18:18 < fenn> then my mother ranted at me that it wasnt a practical application of a sledgehammer!
18:18 < epitron> they train themselves by learning to generate the data they're given
18:19 < epitron> so basically they're pattern recognizers
18:19 < andares> epitron, you can do that with MLPs too.
18:19 < epitron> not the same way though :)
18:19 < andares> Just make a network with training input = training output, then have the nodes constrict in the middle.
18:19 < epitron> you should look at this talk -- 
18:19 < andares> But lots of things fall through the cracks if it can't totally reform input.
18:19 < kanzure> fenn: obviously we're not going to have our computers coming up with "functional creativity" for reusing systems and so on
18:19 < kanzure> fenn: that's like saying "Insert magical Ai here"
18:19 < epitron> http://youtube.com/watch?v=AyzOUbkUf3M
18:19 < kanzure> however, if that's what people would contribute modules for, that's fine
18:19 < fenn> kanzure: do you really expect people to use those lists of links? like computational_biology
18:19 < epitron> andares: that's a great talk
18:19 < kanzure> fenn: yeah, why not?
18:20 < kanzure> fenn: I did / still do
18:20 < epitron> you use them because you know what they are :)
18:20 < fenn> well, the url's usually dont mean anything
18:20 < kanzure> no I don't
18:20 < andares> Okay, looking up genesis.
18:20 < kanzure> I don't know what the hell they are ;)
18:20 < zedrdave> erm. I'd love to take part in that conversation, but I don't think I can conduct normal daily activities and follow more thant 5% of what's written :P
18:20 < epitron> ok well, i guess you're just a mutant then :)
18:20 < kanzure> zedrdave: Heh. Alright :)
18:21 < epitron> less is more!
18:21 < zedrdave> but if I could say smth: to the person who failed to do supervised learning on a sq function: most likely bad parameters.
18:21 < zedrdave> any decently parametered NN with one hidden layer can do it.
18:22 < epitron> zedrdave: you seen boltzmann machines yet?
18:22 < epitron> (restricted)
18:23 < zedrdave> mmnyea...
18:23 < kanzure> fenn: again, please see my objection to your sledgehammer example. You'd need an ai for a computer to do such 'novel uses of objects'. So I guess those 'novel uses of materials' are what we would have people insert in the wiki, right?
18:23 < zedrdave> what about them?
18:23 < zedrdave> mostly simulated annealing in an NN, afaik.
18:23 < andares> arr firefox crashes.
18:23 < kanzure> fenn: and then we'd need a computer to be able to "use" and "apply" those novel uses of materials, to do path-following
18:24  * zedrdave is really not sure of where all this is going. but is going with it for the sake of it :)
18:24 < kanzure> zedrdave: Andares is doing NNs for the sake of learning, it seems.
18:24 < andares> And flash breaks again.
18:25 < fenn> heh kanzure i was referring to the use of NN's for squaring numbers
18:25 < zedrdave> well, doing NN for the sake of learning is prolly a good idea.
18:25 < kanzure> fenn: oops. Well. I think my misinterpretation was useful.
18:25 < fenn> sure
18:25 < zedrdave> certainly more sound than doing NN in the hope of building tomorrow's emerging artificial consciousness...
18:25 < andares> fenn, I did the squared numbers test because I was looking at the structure of MLPs and realized I didn't think it was possible.
18:25 < kanzure> fenn: you mean, I misinterpreted your sledgehammer example, right?
18:26 < andares> I wasn't actually going to use a neural net to square numbers for any reason other than fun/science.
18:26 < zedrdave> MLP = multi-layer perceptron?
18:26 < kanzure> zedrdave: hehe. Yeah, building ai sounds dubious. Eliezer and Goertzel haven't seemed to make much progress re: OpenCog, and I'm just not seeing how their plan works out overall. Henry Markram's stuff is awesome, but. 
18:26 < fenn> kanzure: you misinterpreted what i was saying, but correctly understood that humans will be submitting novel uses of materials
18:26 < andares> zedrdave, yeah
18:26 < kanzure> fenn: okay
18:27 < kanzure> fenn: we need a way to formalize novel functions so that the computer can use them automatically as it's finding the shortest path
18:27 < kanzure> how would we do that, without restraining the possible uses?
18:27 < zedrdave> andares: MLP have been proven to be very good approximators for pretty much any math function you can think of.
18:27 < fenn> kanzure: however, simulations can also provide lists of 'functionality' code objects
18:27 < zedrdave> you need a good cut-off function. sigmoids for ex.
18:27 < kanzure> I guess the computer could just say "Humans! Please make a functional interface between these two packages. Might be a shorter path than <something else>. Good day."
18:27 < andares> zedrdave, well, since I've implemented some ways to fit input and output for the network, maybe I'll give squaring another try.
18:27 < andares> But with straight input/output it's impossible.
18:28 < fenn> kanzure: that's where graph visualization comes in
18:28 < zedrdave> erm. once again... you need decent parameters.
18:28 < andares> Exactly. I didn't think about that at the time.
18:28 < zedrdave> *possible* doesn't mean easy. and certainly nt fast in all cases :)
18:28 < fenn> kanzure: also the ignore tool, ignores dependencies of a certain type, or pretend pretends that you already have some package (or something like that)
18:28 < zedrdave> also probably the right number of hidden neurons.
18:29 < fenn> s/package/functionality/
18:29 < zedrdave> note that learning this type of quadratic function is a very poor use of a NN...
18:29 < zedrdave> can be done, but pretty much driving screws with a hammer.
18:30 < kanzure> fenn: That *does* sound good. Now I am wondering whether or not we can have it so that when you submit a 'novel functionality', you're really submitting a new type, and this new type (just like C++ 
18:30 < kanzure> objects) can have different preprogrammed ways to interface with other objects. Probably just a collection of scripts. And the compiler will come around and *fail* if it can't do something yet, so that's where we do blackboxing. Ah, makes sense (EOL).
18:30 < fenn> kanzure: did you read the autogenix format draft? http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/autogenix-format-v0.0.2.txt
18:30 < kanzure> yes
18:30 < zedrdave> problem with MLPs is that they are universal function approximators. so in essence, if you can put it into undergrad math, chances are it can learn it.
18:30 < kanzure> I don't remember if it accounts for all of this, fenn.
18:31 < zedrdave> *but*, it's also subject to all sorts of very annoying dimensionality issues. and the bias-variance is horrible...
18:32 < zedrdave> so, not a very good way to train in machine learning.
18:32 < fenn> kanzure: right, functionality is like types, but i think its more like a python attribute than a C++ type
18:32 < fenn> because a car and a truck are different types, but they have the same functionality
18:32 < kanzure> fenn: can you explain python types to me, then? I need to go read about them. 
18:32 < fenn> they both provide moveHeavyShit()
18:32 < kanzure> http://docs.python.org/lib/types.html
18:33 < fenn> python is strongly typed, meaning you can't cast anything
18:33 < kanzure> (and users would contribute moveHeavyShit(), of course)
18:33 < kanzure> you can't cast? yikes
18:33 < kanzure> I love casting :)
18:33 < fenn> casting is very necessary if you cant access attributes directly
18:33 < kanzure> int jitterbugs = (int *) someOtherClassOfData; 
18:34 < fenn> so you have an object someObject, you want an int from it
18:34 < fenn> you'd do something like jitterbugs = someObject.number
18:35 < fenn> uh poor example and not sticking too close to reality, but number would be the built-in method that returns an 'int' object
18:35 < fenn> s/object/attribute/
18:35 < fenn> one sec, lemme get a link
18:35 < kanzure> yes, I can see how that works
18:36 < kanzure> but this is sounding like we are falling into OOP neverland
18:36 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_typing
18:36 < zedrdave> if I may ask a silly question. what's OOP gotta do with self-replication? :)
18:37 < fenn> zedrdave: when you're designing the cad system to build the replicator
18:37 < fenn> zedrdave: it's a fun recursive problem :\
18:37 < kanzure> zedrdave: Kinematic self-replication, i.e. macroscale stuff, not DNA and below-Brownian-diffusion limits stuff (definitely *above*). 
18:37 < fenn> i think atomic scale replication would actually be easier
18:37 < kanzure> zedrdave: So, we figure that there are such things as 'dependency loops' in the design, where one package has to be able to rely on the other available materials to make itself and the other packages.
18:37 < zedrdave> I don't think compiled language are your best options for that type of task (within this decade) :)
18:38 < kanzure> zedrdave: Right. We are doing a giant database and then will be doing path-finding through the database to find a "closed-loop", indicating a set of materials that can make each other (given certain inputs)
18:38 < fenn> zedrdave: definitely not, in fact it's not even a program, but rather a wiki-ish database with attached code modules
18:39 < zedrdave> erm... I'm still quite hazy on what you are trying to achieve... care to sum it up from the ground up in less than 3 sentences (I did glance at your wiki, but frankly don't have time to read 50 pages right now)
18:39 < zedrdave> self-replication, genetic programming, modular programming, OOP?
18:40 < fenn> say you want your rapid prototyper to spit out a fully functional robot, you need to make all the components of the robot or else have them on hand
18:40 < zedrdave> erm. that's not how most of robotics work :)
18:40 -!- Enki-2 [n=weechat@c-71-234-190-248.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:40 < fenn> the program/database we are making will determine whether it's possible to make the robot with the tools and components and materials you have
18:40 < zedrdave> and also, what level "component" are you talking about.
18:41 < zedrdave> mmn... ok, starting to see a bit better what you are inkling at. still quite blurry though.
18:41 < kanzure> yes, it is blurry
18:41 < kanzure> otherwise we'd have the solution!
18:41 < fenn> it's 'emergent'!
18:41 < kanzure> hah
18:41 < zedrdave> erm. I contend you don't have a problem either.
18:41 < kanzure> zedrdave: Really? Then please design us a self-replicating machine.
18:41 < fenn> yeah :(
18:41 < kanzure> please
18:42 < zedrdave> ah ok. that's easy.
18:42 < fenn> we dont have a specification for a problem he means
18:42 < kanzure> zedrdave: please elaborate on our design
18:42 < zedrdave> I'd do it in Prolog, but I'll even do it in PHP for you :)
18:42 < kanzure> *your
18:42 < kanzure> huh? 
18:42 < kanzure> it's a physical machine
18:43 < fenn> replicating information is trivial
18:43 < zedrdave> mmnyea. that's what I thought...
18:43 < kanzure> is mmyea == Office Space ref?
18:43 < zedrdave> so, erm, going for physical electronic replication?
18:44 < kanzure> zedrdave: http://reprap.org/ has a start to a project like this, but they can't entirely self-replicate all of their parts (and we doubt they ever will, the way they are doing it). 
18:44 < zedrdave> no. it's me expressing a mix of confusion, slight incredulity and very hazy understanding...
18:44 < fenn> i find that a lot of AI researchers are totally clueless when it comes to building stuff, or the complexity involved
18:44 < zedrdave> fenn: then again. define "building stuff".
18:44 < kanzure> zedrdave: Well. Electronics are not necessary, but it'd really help out with the internal logic of the final replacing machine, I think. 
18:44 < fenn> zedrdave: putting together pieces of physical matter
18:45 < fenn> usually with a goal in mind
18:45 < zedrdave> for all my practice in AI, I wouldn't have the faintest idea of how to put together a car engine...
18:45 < zedrdave> oddly enough, I don't consider that a hindrance to my goals :)
18:45 < kanzure> zedrdave: Putting together an engine can be easy, it's just a set of instructions, like a program.
18:45 < fenn> i think its the root of the symbol grounding problem
18:46 < kanzure> but you have to have the tools available to express the program
18:46 < zedrdave> silly theoretician that I am, I tend to think that AI is more paper than oil and cogs...
18:46 < kanzure> not just a keyboard but also the CNC shop, the lathe, the metal, 
18:46 < fenn> in a physical control system there is no symbol grounding problem. the variables represent measured quantities
18:46 < kanzure> (also the smarts to never start the ignition within 50 feet of the engine ..)
18:47 < zedrdave> okay. if I may:
18:48 < zedrdave> there is *one* (count it: one) and only one reason why you sometimes need to leave your math model and computorial simulation behind and go dig for some actual cogwheels:
18:48 < fenn> the difference between theory and practice is much greater in practice
18:48 < zedrdave> the impossibility to build fully realistic complex system simulations.
18:48 < kanzure> we are not interested in simulations
18:48 < fenn> also there is the limits of computater power
18:49 < zedrdave> but then you are more of a physicist than an AI researcher.
18:49 < kanzure> although simulations can be useful, and indeed entertaining, they are not reality
18:49 < kanzure> how could they ever replace the fundamental reality that they represent? No matter how precise?
18:49 < zedrdave> if thermodynamics affect your model, then you're probably in the wrong direction.
18:49 < kanzure> hm, I don't know whether or not thermo is a factor or not
18:49 < fenn> kanzure: electronics simulations have gotten pretty close, because it's well understood and amenable to modeling
18:49 < kanzure> fenn: surely thermo has its place in our model, but it's more like just an optimization thing
18:50 < zedrdave> well, they're the root of what makes the difference between reality and simulation.
18:50 < zedrdave> you can modelize a crapload of things nowadays.
18:50 < kanzure> fenn: simulating electronics requires, at the moment, electronics in the first place! But that doesn't mean that running a virtual circuit on a physical circuit makes the 'virtual circuit' just as real as the physical circuit it's running on .. layers of abstraction, layers of abstraction.
18:50 < kanzure> yeah, I agree that we can do lots of models and so on
18:50 < fenn> kanzure: it is just as real if it's a digital circuit
18:50 < zedrdave> what you can't really modelize well, for *purely* numeric reasons, is the atomic level (and even the macro level, in most case) of thermodynamic interactions.
18:51 < fenn> a processor in an FPGA is just as real as a hardwired processor
18:51 < kanzure> fenn: perhaps intrinsically
18:51 < zedrdave> but once again. if you're doing AI. that's really not much of your problem.
18:51 < kanzure> fenn: FPGAs are a different story, since those are physical gates that are switching connections and whatever
18:51 < zedrdave> but I get the feeling here we're saying AI when we actually mean Robots.
18:51 < fenn> fine, an emulator running in an emulator ad infinitum
18:52 < kanzure> I don't know what we are talking about any more.
18:52 < kanzure> fenn: we lost track
18:52 < kanzure> we were on a roll with something
18:52  * fenn blames hazy-ai-researcher
18:52 < kanzure> oh, right, duck typing
18:52 < zedrdave> but I'm sure glad you kids like doing that sort of unrewarding robot-elbow-grease tuning stuff... 
18:52 < fenn> attributes are provided by simulations? is it possible?
18:53 < zedrdave> I need people like you to spend hours turning my cool models into rather lame but visually pleasing walking robots :)
18:53 < fenn> attributes can be provided by humans (fairly smart ones at least)
18:53 < kanzure> uhh
18:54 < fenn> zedrdave: perhaps you should join #robots if that's what you're interested in
18:54 < fenn> er, ##robotics
18:54 < kanzure> he seems to be focused on abstractions only
18:54 < zedrdave> erm, no, that's precisely what I was saying :)
18:54 < kanzure> he also seems to think the simulation is more important than the reality of the situation
18:54 < kanzure> O.o
18:54 < zedrdave> robots are cool and all. but they're just a way to let the hoi polloi understand what your model does in reality.
18:55 < fenn> zedrdave: that's bullshit
18:55 < kanzure> anyway, fenn - yeah, so we were talking about duck typing, it looks good to me (just skimmed the wikipedia article)
18:55 < zedrdave> real AI people don't care about cogwheels ;)
18:55 < mech0r> hello zedrdave
18:55 < mech0r> hello Enki-2
18:55 < fenn> zedrdave: without robotics your fancy AI will go nowhere.
18:55 < mech0r> hello andares
18:55 < kanzure> without physical implementation, in general
18:55 < kanzure> even if that implementation is in your head
18:55 < kanzure> when you think about it.
18:55 < zedrdave> fenn: sure, if you read what I said above: there is a point where you may want robotic models to test certain things.
18:56 < zedrdave> but note that a good 90% of AI has strictly nothing to do with robots.
18:56 < fenn> not for testing, for building, advancing technology and science and all that
18:56 < kanzure> entropy maximization ;)
18:56 < fenn> yeah, stupid stars dont even know how to properly burn hydrogen
18:56 < zedrdave> and a good 90% of robotics has nothing to do with AI either.
18:56 < kanzure> fenn: heh, look how much waste is left over! (i.e., us)
18:57 < fenn> they just explode every few kilo-aeons
18:57 < zedrdave> also, not using robots doesn't mean it's "all in my head"... there's this fancy tool called computer that does a very good inbetween :)
18:57 < kanzure> yes, but you're not building
18:57 < kanzure> huh
18:57 < kanzure> fenn: you were right about the engineering distinction
18:57 < kanzure> of course, building models is building, yes
18:57 < zedrdave> kanzure: you are building just the same.
18:58 < zedrdave> the only difference is your environment.
18:58 < fenn> kanzure: uh, which engineering distinction again?
18:58 < kanzure> fenn: you said something about how ai researchers don't understand the distinctions in engineering and their semantics or whatever
18:58 < kanzure> zedrdave: that's true
18:58 < kanzure> zedrdave: but we're still working on our model
18:58 < kanzure> so I don't see where you are going with this
18:58 < fenn> kanzure: it was just a general stereotype
18:58 < zedrdave> well then, I fail to see really what it should care about real world matter at this point.
18:59 < zedrdave> if it's a model, it's paper and possibly computers.
18:59 < kanzure> "it should care about" ? what is it?
18:59 < kanzure> *what is it "it" ?
18:59 < zedrdave> your model.
18:59 < fenn> if the model is a model, the model is paper and possibly computers
18:59 < kanzure> because we want a proof of possibility?
18:59 < zedrdave> you build your model using fully abstract concepts. possibly software tools.
19:00 < fenn> a model cant be made from fully abstract concepts, that's impossible
19:00 < zedrdave> fenn: that's the very definition of a model :)
19:00 < fenn> yay! do i get a cookie?
19:00 < zedrdave> doesn't mean you do not integrate physical constraints.
19:01 < zedrdave> fenn: no. the very definition is what you describe as "impossible".
19:01 < kanzure> you can't separate from reality -- that's thermodynamically impossible
19:01 < zedrdave> models put together abstract concepts that appropriately abstract what you are eventually trying to achieve.
19:01 < kanzure> context, context!
19:01 < fenn> An abstract model (or conceptual model) is a theoretical construct that represents something, with a set of variables and a set of logical and quantitative relationships between them.
19:01 < zedrdave> kanzure: it's not only very possible, very desirable but also ultimately the only way to solve anything.
19:02 < zedrdave> if a computer can't solve most themodynamics, neither will you.
19:02 < fenn> in this twisted tortured definition we see the word "something" - this "something" is the non-abstract
19:02 < kanzure> zedrdave: You need to read some Egan. Even if you just (supposedly) came up with the most abstract thing ever, it's still *related to you*, sitting there shuffling neurotransmitters around in your head.
19:02  * zedrdave sighs ever so little
19:03 < zedrdave> I don't think we really need to revert to tautologies just yet.
19:03 < kanzure> (and thus my interest in self-modification re: neuroengineering and why we might need self-replicators for combinatorial testing, or simulations as fenn suggests)
19:03 < zedrdave> yes, whatever you do, whatever you think, it's run on a physical substrate.
19:03 < fenn> simulations provide the fodder for combinatorics
19:03 < fenn> they arent the same thing
19:04 < zedrdave> but... and that's pretty much day one of AI... there's the idea that those concept have an existence separate from their physical substrate.
19:04 < fenn> sure, that's just abstraction
19:04 < zedrdave> and that's what you call a model.
19:05 < fenn> an abstraction without a physical substrate is useless
19:05 < kanzure> most of our substrates seems to be (1) brains and (2) computers.
19:05 < kanzure> *seem
19:05 < zedrdave> then there's the next (often mixed together for obvious reasons) step of putting down that idea into smth a bit more concrete. like an equation on a piece of paper or a PoC software program.
19:05 < fenn> or at least a lower level of abstraction, that eventually works its way down to the real world
19:05 < kanzure> fenn: yeah, but the abstraction is always real (you just created the idea, no? and ideas have a physical substrate)
19:05 < kanzure> (even though ideas have not been fully quantified)
19:05 < zedrdave> if that works and the next step (turning it into whatever, a robot for your sake) doesn't. you need better models. and better roboticists.
19:06 < kanzure> "I am confident that this idea can be quantified."
19:06 < zedrdave> (and probably no AI to being with)
19:06 < fenn> kanzure: yes, at this stage in our understanding of possibility space :)
19:06 < kanzure> hehe
19:07 < zedrdave> kanzure: okay. I don't really think discussing Platonic theories of Ideas will do much to help settle the debate.
19:07 < fenn> no
19:08 < zedrdave> bottom line is: *of course* you need to get to a hardware implementation at some point (depending on the problem), but in roughly 99.9999% of cases, there is strictly no reason to jump directly there. 
19:09 < zedrdave> if you can't put it on a piece of paper first, then you are going at it wrong.
19:09 < zedrdave> that, or the entire scientific community of this planet has been going wrong at it for a couple centuries now :)
19:09 < kanzure> if it's in your head then it has a physical substrate already
19:09 < kanzure> sigh
19:09 < fenn> the scientific community constantly deals with phyical reality
19:09 < fenn> if you believe laws and textbooks and all that crap is science, you're mistaken
19:10 < zedrdave> erm. apparently I do. it's done me pretty good so far :)
19:10 < kanzure> I don't know what's going on anymore
19:10 < fenn> maybe you should have said 'mathematicians'
19:10 < kanzure> what are we talking about?
19:10 < zedrdave> and precisely, the work of scientists is to *abstract* physical reality
19:10 < kanzure> you cannot escape into abstraction completely
19:11 < kanzure> but I already brought up this point
19:11 < zedrdave> putting models back into physical shapes and ensuring it works... is not science research nor AI. it's got a name. it's called *ENGINEERING*
19:11 < fenn> engineering goes the other way too
19:11 < fenn> it's just applied science
19:11 < zedrdave> sure... 
19:12 < fenn> (as if there were a non-applied science)
19:12 < fenn> oh, yeah its called math
19:12 < kanzure> but you still do math engineering
19:12 < kanzure> how do you think we train people to become mathematicians?
19:12 < kanzure> we are working with their brains to support math-models and other programs
19:13 < fenn> and there's lots of starving mathematicians-in-becoming out there, in the rat-race-sweatshop
19:13 < fenn> inventing new math isnt helping them to become mathematicians
19:13 < fenn> sad but true
19:13  * zedrdave is less and less sure of where this all is going...
19:13 < zedrdave> nor what that point about mathematicians was.
19:14 < fenn> whatever your goal is, it involves physical reality at some point
19:14 < zedrdave> (oh yea, and for the record, you stand way better chance to make millions if you are a mathematicians than a budding robotmakers, these days) (not that it really matters)
19:15 < fenn> uh.. show me a millionaire mathematician please
19:15 < zedrdave> fenn: once again, that's pretty much carpet-bombing fishes in a 3nm barrel...
19:15 < kanzure> fenn: that might be possible, a cool quest. Shall we googlestalk? 
19:15 < fenn> i can think of one: wolfram
19:15 < kanzure> ooh, but I thought he was trained in physics?
19:15 < zedrdave> may I ask one question....
19:15 < kanzure> his first article when he was 16 was on QED
19:15 < zedrdave> fenn: how old are you?
19:15 < kanzure> and he knew Feynman, so I'm guessing physics
19:15 < fenn> yes, but he got rich off of publicity and media
19:16 < kanzure> fenn: I agree with "it involves reality at some point" :)
19:16 < fenn> zedrdave: why do you ask?
19:16 < kanzure> fenn: yeah, and then his Mathematica package. Big bucks.
19:16 < zedrdave> just curious, really...
19:16 < fenn> oh, he wrote mathematica? i guess i should have known that
19:16 < fenn> zedrdave: 25, you?
19:17 < zedrdave> oh yea, and as for mathematicians: any math geek who cares to make a buck goes into finance math and makes more in a year than any engineering job will ever pay in a decade.
19:17 < zedrdave> fenn: a bit more...
19:17 < fenn> number!
19:17 < zedrdave> 28 if you really care :|
19:17 < fenn> it's only fair, you see
19:18 < zedrdave> I was just wondering if you were of the same age bracket as kanzure... that's all :)
19:18 < fenn> not the economic system, our little information-scarcity game
19:18 < fenn> um, am i?
19:18 < zedrdave> not that I know of.
19:18 < kanzure> I am 18.
19:18 < fenn> i really dont know anymore
19:18 < fenn> it seems to be related to how long people have been allowed to do what they want
19:19 < zedrdave> that's not the same bracket...
19:19 < zedrdave> not that it should matter all that much.
19:19 < kanzure> yeah, I've been on the net for ages, I feel much older than I should
19:19 < zedrdave> sure...
19:19 < fenn> some guy who's been working in the ford plant all his life might as well be a high school graduate
19:19 < zedrdave> well, I pretty much was using the net before you were born. so I guess that makes me really ancient.
19:19 < kanzure> zedrdave: haha
19:20 < fenn> yeah it does
19:20 < fenn> how did you begin (end up?) in that situation?
19:20 < kanzure> zedrdave: yeah, based off of the way the internet develops (rate-wise), that's a difference of maybe 6 billion websites
19:20 < zedrdave> also I can pretty much see myself in your position around your age...
19:20 < kanzure> I've had people tell me "Son, I was on the internet before you were born." and that really sets things into perspective
19:20 < zedrdave> with way more enthusiasm than actual time to sit down and think of things in rational terms :)
19:21 < kanzure> that's bullshit, we are pretty clear in what we are thinking about
19:21 < zedrdave> oh, I'm sure.
19:21 < kanzure> don't pull the "you're young and clueless" shit
19:21 < zedrdave> nope.
19:21 < zedrdave> I wasn't...
19:21 < zedrdave> although..... :D
19:21 < fenn> zedrdave: what's the holy project you're working on then? maybe we can nip at its ankles
19:21 < zedrdave> fenn: see... that's the thing.
19:22 < zedrdave> I *did* have holy projects and all when I was 18.
19:22 < zedrdave> and then reality hit me in the head.
19:22 < fenn> and now you're a jaded old bastard that likes to attack peoples' dreams
19:22 < zedrdave> now... I'm criticizing the way you go at it.
19:22 < zedrdave> which I know is a futile thing to do. but you kinda got me into it.
19:23 < fenn> you dont even know what we're doing
19:23 < fenn> hell *I* dont even know what i'm doing exactly
19:23 < zedrdave> what I mean is that trying and tackling a "grand project" from the ground up, rarely ever worked for anybody.
19:23 < kanzure> right, but that's why we avoid blackswans
19:23 < kanzure> that's why we rely on community dynamics
19:23 < kanzure> (i.e., contributers to the database)
19:23 < kanzure> *contributors
19:23 < zedrdave> but I know it never stopped me from trying when I was 18. so I wouldn't try to stop you :)
19:24 < fenn> zedrdave: i want a program that can spit out a robot, pray tell how i should go about it
19:24 < zedrdave> i guess my humble experience has always been that, trying to tackle smaller, more obvious things, always eventually leads to tackling the big picture. except you have a much clearer idea of what you are doing by then.
19:25 < zedrdave> fenn: afai understood, you want way more than that...
19:25 < zedrdave> you want a robot that is capable of spitting out a robot. right?
19:25 < fenn> yes of course
19:25 < zedrdave> because as for a program that spits out a robot... it's got little to do with AI :)
19:25 < kanzure> fenn: for when we're done with zedrdave, check out http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Egan_quote :)
19:25 < fenn> and hopefully it's capable o fdoing more than just spitting out another robot
19:26 < zedrdave> depending on what you want that spit out robot to look like, of course.
19:26 < fenn> i.e. not just a burning piece of paper
19:28 < zedrdave> also. that may sound a bit contemptuous, but I swear it's not: 
19:29 < zedrdave> you may want to go and read some old-fashioned dead greek guys for a change.
19:29 < fenn> i'd rather get some work done actually
19:29 < zedrdave> Plato and Aristotle would do much to talk you out of that silly habit of quoting the "brain <-> idea" connection as the ultimate "abstraction doesn't exist" argument...
19:30 < zedrdave> and that's smth very important to understand, because it's what the whole of AI is built upon.
19:30 < zedrdave> the idea that thinking isn't just a matter of cogwheels.
19:31 < fenn> and look at where it's gotten us
19:32  * fenn gestures at the broad expanse of intelligent agents out there, in the wild of the 'net
19:32 < zedrdave> now, I won't even try to postulate one of the countless theories on how that might happen, 'cause I'd hate to blow the big ongoing AI riddle, but one thing is sure: you've got brain on one side, you've got symbols on the other.... in the middle is a whole lot of magical pixie dust that we don't quite understand... but it's ostensibly enough to make a clear line between the two.
19:33 < zedrdave> if by agents, you mean the MAS kind of agent, they are the least intelligent sort of "intelligence" you could think of.
19:33 < fenn> what does MAS stand for?
19:33 < zedrdave> multi-agent systems
19:33 < kanzure> Hm, I am pretty sure that I understand the anthropic problems with thought and the subjective viewpoint, but this does not mean that we still can't investigate the brain (it's *right there* - just hack into it). Plato genuinely thought of some "other realm" that was inaccessible, yet somehow he could magically access it, so whatever.
19:33 < zedrdave> perhaps as a whole, if that (most so-called agents are low-level reactive automata with a fancy name)..
19:34 < zedrdave> kanzure: didn't say not to hack into the brain.
19:34 < zedrdave> of course we should. and it's certainly gonna help understand a lot.
19:34 < fenn> i think plato's "ideals" are cultural information artifacts, nothing to do with the nature of reality
19:34 < zedrdave> I just take exception to the argument "it's thought out by the physical brain, so it's physical"...
19:34 < zedrdave> fenn: I took Plato because I think it sums up things elegantly...
19:35 < fenn> plato didnt have moral/cultural relativism, so he couldnt see
19:35 < zedrdave> but pretty much anybody who's been giving it some thoughts across the ages has come down in the same direction...
19:35 < zedrdave> not least among them: Kant.
19:35 < kanzure> you can't possibly propose the existence of an inaccessible void since that's untestable
19:35 < fenn> well you can, but by definition it doesnt matter
19:35 < zedrdave> kanzure: "inaccessible void"?
19:36 < fenn> see: god, angels on a pin, etc
19:36 < zedrdave> c'mon now... what are we, medieval scientists? what's next "aether"?
19:36 < kanzure> Plato was simply dead wrong. Tegmark and Egan have made modifications to the platonic realm ideas, saying that "*we are* mathematics", but how does that help progress things?
19:36 < kanzure> exactly
19:36 < kanzure> that was Plato's idea
19:36 < kanzure> that there was some realm of mathematics that he could get ideas and concepts from
19:36 < zedrdave> no. that was Plato's antiquated formulation, if that.
19:36 < fenn> zedrdave: does information exist outside of the physical?
19:37 < kanzure> information physics is fun.
19:37 < zedrdave> the idea is much more obviously that of an intangible realm detached from physical reality.
19:37 < fenn> kanzure: its much like thermodynamics isnt it?
19:37 < kanzure> fenn: yep. Algorithmic information theory (Chaitin), Godel, Kolmogorov, etc.
19:38 < zedrdave> fenn: do you need physical reality to ensure that algebra holds together?
19:38 < kanzure> Salthe (ecology, information), then Smolin (epitron, that's your que) re: LQG and the connections between gravity and information and so on
19:38 < fenn> zedrdave: i dont know, i cant seem to remember what it's like without physical reality
19:38 < kanzure> let's experiment
19:38 < kanzure> let's blow up every person in the galaxy
19:38 < kanzure> and then test algebra
19:38 < fenn> and the galaxy too
19:38 < kanzure> ooh, good idea?
19:38 < fenn> and the rest of the universe
19:39 < zedrdave> the fact that you cannot *conceive* of purely abstract thought doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
19:39 < zedrdave> that's the trick of it.
19:39 < zedrdave> I don't know... try zen koans, maybe.
19:39 < kanzure> heh :)
19:39 < kanzure> I was looking those up the other day
19:39 < kanzure> the trick is that they are still running on your brain, your physical substrate
19:40 < zedrdave> methink that's your next best try. short for taking massive doses of ritalin and sitting with Russel's history of philosophy.
19:40 < kanzure> zen koans rely very much on incubation insight, mutation, and so on
19:40 < kanzure> <-- massive doses of Adderall.
19:40 < zedrdave> no shit. I sure couldn't tell.
19:40 < kanzure> Maybe I need to learn to hide it.
19:41 < zedrdave> zen koans rely very much on the concept of shortcutting that connection you insist on making between neural substrate and abstract thinking.
19:41 < kanzure> fenn: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Chat_minutes#2008-03-29 some summaries
19:41 < kanzure> you cannot escape into abstraction/simulation
19:42 < kanzure> Egan claims that you can, in his book on simulations. I believe it was the one about simulations of people on a chip, and suddenly the chip is destroyed but the simulation is still running
19:42 < zedrdave> since the philosophical formal route seems to escape you still, I could only recommend trying the absurdist koan way...
19:43 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Neverness/1 has some of my notes on koans
19:44 < zedrdave> for the love of shiva, if you don't stop quoting a science fiction author to back up your scientific arguments, I'll soon starting to quote from Ron Hubbard's...
19:44 < zedrdave> care to take a personality test?
19:44 < kanzure> maybe not right now, I want to get back to work, but if you drop a link I'll take a peek soon
19:44 < zedrdave> okay. let me hook up that machine...
19:44 < zedrdave> we'll be assessing your thetan count shortly
19:45 < kanzure> uhh
19:45 < kanzure> let's not do scientology
19:45 < zedrdave> hey. you started it with the sci-fi guys.
19:45 < kanzure> so what? 
19:45 < zedrdave> if you can have your sci-fi guy, I can have mine.
19:45 < kanzure> yes, but I was citing from Wikipedia on koans
19:46 < kanzure> if you think it's wrong, just edit the damn thing
19:46 < kanzure> that's the whole point :)
19:46 < kanzure> fenn: you alive?
19:46 < zedrdave> I wasn't referring to the koan part :P
19:46 < zedrdave> your infatuation with Egan quoting...
19:47 < kanzure> it's a good line :) And it makes sense. 
19:47 < zedrdave> so does most of dianetics.
19:47 < zedrdave> OK, I take that back. it makes very little sense unless you are on acid.
19:47 < kanzure> haha
19:48 < zedrdave> but it belongs  to the same aisle of your local library...
19:49 < zedrdave> tempting as it would be to build an entire set of scientific arguments on the work of a minor sci-fi writer, I don't think that's the best way to go at convincing people.
19:49 < zedrdave> otherwise I'd have long developed that Anne Rice angle on Superstring theory...
19:50 < kanzure> argument from authority?
19:50 < kanzure> get out.
19:51 < zedrdave> depends on the authority.
19:51 < zedrdave> if the authority is that of said sci fi writer... I may take issue.
19:51 < zedrdave> call me biased, I tend to prefer my science from the mouth of scientists.
19:52 < zedrdave> similarly, when I am looking for entertainment, I rarely rely on the work of Mssrs. Bohr and Einstein.
19:52 < kanzure> I don't think you understand. We are not talking about science any more. We are talking about philosophy. You missed the transition when we started claiming that virtuality does not require a reality.
19:52 < zedrdave> sure. but sci-fi is not philosophy either.
19:52 < kanzure> mathematics and philosophy have a fine line behind them
19:53 < kanzure> but I am not sure we are making any progress any more
19:53 < zedrdave> and for that matter, philosophy of science require at least perfect mastery of both fields.
19:53 < kanzure> I need to go do something.
19:53 < zedrdave> oh no, we aren't. and we wouldn't be anyway. which is why I'd rather discuss the form. :)
19:53 < kanzure> There is no matter without form, and no form without matter.
19:53 < zedrdave> but yea... good luck and call me when you are about to turn the thing on. :D
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20:06 < kanzure> fenn: for STM machine, SpeedEvil in ##electronics suggests a steel wire with a perpendicular electromagnet, which will make the steel wire act like a spring and move the STM tip a bit. 
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21:09 < kanzure> Maybe I should apologize for zedrdave. Thought he might do something good, like offer some computational neurosci knowledge. ;)
21:10 < fenn> i'm not sure why AI researchers are always so arrogant and abrasive
21:12 < fenn> i havent read egan's people on a chip story, but it sounds more like a refute than seriously entertaining the existence of pure abstraction
21:12 < kanzure> What I did is I had a young friend of mine go read it for me
21:12 < fenn> i was thinking the many-worlds hypothesis could lead somewhere
21:12 < kanzure> and then I listened to his report
21:13 < kanzure> And he basically said that Egan was arguing that the abstractions could exist without a substrate. I didn't like the sound of that. I don't know if it was a refute (I sure hope so)
21:13 < fenn> last AI researcher I had the pleasure of arguing constantly with would also refer me to the beauty of zen koans and such
21:14 < fenn> as if it were some sort of proof of his correctness
21:14 < kanzure> fenn: I think referring to zen koans is a way of saying "you need to mature"
21:15 < kanzure> "and understand that you can't bruteforce it, you can't create entirely new knowledge on the spot"
21:15 < kanzure> That's not my interpretation of the koans themselves; just how people point you to them, rather.
21:16 < fenn> hmm? you cant create new knowledge? i'm not sure about that - depends on your definitions
21:17 < kanzure> I do not know how to put it into words, but it's the same fundamental concept of why we need skdb for example
21:18 < kanzure> because you need all of those trials and errors accumulated from 'societalized knowledge'
21:18 < fenn> ah, synthesis
21:19 < fenn> Creatively or divergently applying prior knowledge and skills to produce a new or original whole.
21:20 < kanzure> right
21:20  * fenn strokes his black box. this here's my knowledge synthesizer..
21:21 < kanzure> you need both recombination and mutation
21:21 < kanzure> Sometimes when I am in my little philosophizing sessions (more often with paper and pen, rather than on a noisy computer) I find myself wondering if I am a "mutation harvesting engine" (my brain, at least)
21:22 < kanzure> since I do have lots of thoughts that others might consider mutated, defective, varied.
21:22 < fenn> music is to frequency envelopes and sequences in a synthesizer as creativity is to ideonomics and ?? in a knowledge synthesizer?
21:23 < kanzure> frequency envelopes in a synth?
21:23 < kanzure> hm?
21:23 < fenn> you know, the algorithms used to decompress music
21:24 < kanzure> "as creativity is to ideonomics and ?? in a knowledge synthesizer" I'm tempted to answer with downloading
21:24 < fenn> the new digital synthesizers are mostly inverse fourier transforms
21:24 < fenn> downloading?
21:25 < fenn> maybe i'm off in context-free land, sry
21:25 < fenn> ideonomics is combining lists of items that can apply to each other with a function or relation
21:26 < kanzure> yes
21:27 < kanzure> if frequency envelopes are just music decompression algorithms, then you need a decompression algorithm for creativity, no?
21:27 < kanzure> and that's usually "downloading" of previous thoughts/ideas/content/etc
21:31 < fenn> i keep thinking of FPGA's and how the step going from logic and symbols to gates and buses is called synthesis
21:33 < kanzure> compiling?
21:33 < fenn> there is also a reverse process, going from a circuit layout to an abstract principle or idea
21:33 < kanzure> decompiling?
21:34 < fenn> sure, but in computer programs it's a linear process, whereas in an fpga the signals interact with each other due to physical closeness (emergent effects)
21:34 < fenn> they're no longer black boxes
21:34 < fenn> a computer program can be black boxes from start to end
21:35 < fenn> ok this isnt going anywhere
21:36 < fenn> i will put it on my idea shelf
21:36 < kanzure> Jef keeps on telling me that it's not just ideonomics, it's mutation too
21:37 < fenn> mutation, how?
21:37 < kanzure> recombinant DNA / ideonomics and stuff like strategically searching out good value to add to your whole (ideally you are aiming for the whole to be greater than the sum of its parts)
21:37 < kanzure> mutation kicks you out of a local rutt when you get stuck
21:37 < kanzure> if your entire population is basically the same and they are generally not solving the problem they need to be
21:37 < kanzure> a single mutation will change their "playing cards"
21:37 < fenn> hm, that's not how i understand ideonomics at all (maybe i dont understand it)
21:38 < kanzure> with ideonomics you don't have a DNA to ideas of course
21:38 < fenn> but you could
21:38 < fenn> with a human ideonome project
21:38 < kanzure> right, but you have to root it somewhere
21:38 < kanzure> and no matter how you root it, you will cut off your possibility space to some extent
21:39 < kanzure> and mutation is supposedly the way to never be completely stuck
21:39 < fenn> that's why it's the HUMAN ideonome project
21:39 < fenn> ^^ root
21:39 < kanzure> do you mean something like http://test.canonizer.com/ ?
21:39 < kanzure> (I think the answer is no.)
21:39 < fenn> no idea what that's about
21:39 < kanzure> Brent's Canonizer project is to get everybody's opinions on every subject
21:39 < kanzure> so it's a massive database of opinions and positions of different people
21:40 < fenn> who cares
21:40 < kanzure> heh
21:40 < fenn> i bet you'd be disappointed how few opinions there really are
21:41 < fenn> i'd guess about 8^2 = 64
21:41 < fenn> .. anyway..
21:41 < fenn> simulated annealing.. blah
21:42 < kanzure> (2008-03-11 12:23:46) Jef: recombination is about exploiting synergies that have already proved workable within particular contexts and are thus likely (but not certain) to work again in a larger context.  Mutation is simply for randomly bumping the system out of any ruts it may have settled into.
21:43 < kanzure> and then there's stuff like the Red Queen's Race
21:43 < kanzure> a.k.a that you better hope the whole is greater than the sum of the parts if you intend to go anywhere
21:45 < fenn> are synergies then used as a heuristic in the search?
21:46 < kanzure> heuristics are important for search in the social knowledge domain and recombination etc. etc., but I would think to throw 'synergies' over to the "whole is greater than the sum of its parts" idea, 
21:46 < kanzure> because otherwise you're casting synergies as a type of astrology
21:46 < kanzure> "Hm. The moons are aligned today! All is in synergy."
21:47 < fenn> i meant the specific theme of, say, lathe and mill
21:47 < fenn> or, teepee and horse
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21:47 < fenn> i cant even think of any good synergies
21:48 < kanzure> how about ecological synergies?
21:48 < kanzure> the flowers/bees?
21:51 < fenn> Once person B sits on the shoulders of person A, they are more than tall enough to reach the apple.
21:51 < kanzure> "Stand on the shoulders of giants"
21:51 < kanzure> But are they really giants? I once asked Jef (or maybe Tony) if it was just a tower of ants.
21:51 < fenn> yeah, ants
21:52 < fenn> some ants are bigger or smaller
21:52 < kanzure> but ants can do cool things collectively
21:52 < kanzure> go knock over an ant hill and watch
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21:55 < fenn> http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s01/p0100.html
21:56 < kanzure> fenn: maybe the ?? is "intention" ?
21:57 < fenn> i think it was a poor analogy to begin with
21:57 < kanzure> fenn: interesting link
21:57 < fenn> a synthesizer is just a circuit that combines multiple musical "voices"
21:58 < fenn> like, you can modulate one oscillator with another, or with noise, or direct input
21:59 < fenn> in ideonomics you can modulate one idea with another
22:00 < fenn> but (like music) it doesnt mean anything unless someone is listening
22:00 < fenn> synergetics is a huge impenetrable book that i've always wanted to read
22:01 < kanzure> I wanna get back to work.
22:01 < fenn> it's like a fat encyclopedia sized book
22:10 < kanzure> " I like what bronowski said on free will and determinism; they are misunderstandings of history. At any point in time we move forward into an area that is generally known but whose boundaries are uncertain in some calculable way."
22:10 < kanzure> from #biology
23:26 < kanzure> http://scholarly-societies.org/
23:26 < kanzure> a list of just what the name says.