--- Day changed Sun Apr 13 2008
00:02 < Aulere> interesting
00:05 < Aulere> I'd like to see intuition - excuse me, incubation - studied in MRI
00:07 < Aulere> The DLPFC was found to be a main component of working memory - perhaps even the executive controller of working memory;
00:07 < Aulere> (by studying activation in the absense of stimulation)
00:07 < Aulere> I wonder if a similar study exists for more long-term incubation.
00:09 < kanzure> DLPFC?
00:09 < Aulere> Sorry, Dorsolateral Prefrontal Cortex
00:09 < kanzure> Hm.
00:21 < Aulere> Rowe et. al 2000
00:22 < kanzure> I'll look into it.
00:24 < Aulere> < just the main one. several others.
00:24 < Aulere> eh, it's only tertiarily related ;-)
00:25 < kanzure> I still need to poke fenn into reviewing the todo list. I've spent the majority of the day going through the list of tabs that I have open as opposed to getting any work done. On the other hand, I did learn about some neat open source pyrosequencing techniques.
00:26 < Aulere> hehe
00:38 < fenn> i got distracted by bio and asteroid mining
00:38 < fenn> oh, and zinc-air fuel cells
00:38 < fenn> i'm thinking about making an electric tractor, and lead acid batteries just dont appeal to me
00:41 < fenn> The Apollo astronauts had some difficulty extracting subsurface samples.  While the top was powdery and soft their attempts to drill into the surface resulted in the seizing of the drills which had to be abandoned in place.
00:41 < fenn> obviously, the cheese melted onto the drills
00:44 < kanzure> hah
00:44 < kanzure> so it looks like we'd have to detonate on the moon if we wanted to mine
00:44 < kanzure> and we'd have to constrain/focus the detonation blasts
00:44 < kanzure> or use biomining techniques of course
00:44 < fenn> oh, of course
00:44 < kanzure> of course!
00:45 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Moontank
00:45 < fenn> i was reading about ceres today, theoretically it's up to 10% water by mass, about the size of Luna
00:45 < kanzure> ceres = moon of mars?
00:45 < kanzure> satellite of mars
00:45 < fenn> a big asteroid
00:45 < kanzure> oh,
00:48 < fenn> ok, so, smaller than luna by a lot :)
00:50 < fenn> ooo the nature of the bright spot is uncertain
00:55 < kanzure> I need a list of all genes suspected to be related to the functioning of the brain.
00:56 < fenn> most of them
00:56 < fenn> maybe you should try to get a list of genes _not_ related to the functioning of the brain
00:56 < kanzure> great
00:56 < Aulere> heh
01:00 < kanzure> I guess I want the Brain Atlas project for humans to be completed
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09:06 < kanzure> Splicer: You alive?
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10:26 < kanzure> Hi Splicer2.
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10:29 < kanzure> I do not necessarily agree with your kink comment -- whether or not the neocortex pings is irrelevant in comparison to the established physical systems in existence; just because you don't look up does not mean the stars vanish.
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12:11 < kanzure> http://openvirgle.net/
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12:44 < kanzure> http://www.starlarvae.org kind of kooky
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13:26 < Splicer> sorry about the jogging
13:27 < kanzure> So what's up?
13:27 < Splicer> my connection
13:28 < Splicer> about the stars still being there though noone is looking;
13:28 < Splicer> i think my point was that the reason they are important in the frist place is a kink... cause the universe isn't really important
13:29 < kanzure> Important to who?
13:30 < fenn> what is the sound of one hand typing
13:30 < Splicer> it's as important as britney spears
13:30 < kanzure> fenn: a buddhist monk crying
13:30 < Splicer> yeah... zen
13:30 < Splicer> hehehe
13:30 < kanzure> oh, I got it
13:30 < kanzure> haha, finally :)
13:31 < fenn> *fap fap fap*
13:31 < kanzure> sure
13:31  * kanzure admits that he has tried one-hand typing, but really so that he can use two keyboards at once
13:32 < Splicer> kanzure is a sick puppy
13:36 < kanzure> Splicer: Have you ever considered a wiki+gits combination?
13:37 < kanzure> ikiwiki, maybe
13:37 < fenn> git, not gits
13:38 < kanzure> difference exists?
13:38 < kanzure> #perl tells me - http://ikiwiki.info/
13:38 < kanzure> neat, ikiwiki uses git
13:39 < fenn> nice
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13:46 < kanzure> Awesome. I just found a new station for me to listen to while programming. http://www.scenemusic.eu:8002/live.mp3.m3u
13:47 < Splicer2> chipmusic?
13:47 < Splicer2> i take that back
13:47 < kanzure> I don't know what to call it, it claims it's 'demoscene', but I haven't heard this before.
13:50 < Splicer2> is that word used any more: "The scene"?
13:53 < fenn> a scene is geographically localized
13:53 < kanzure> where's program 'lame' located?
13:53 < Splicer2> it used to be the name of a subculture
13:53 < kanzure> I think it's supposed to be an mp3 encoder.
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13:55 < fenn> apt-get install lame?
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13:55 < fenn> mp3 is patented, so lame isnt installed by default on some systems
13:56 < kanzure> aha, http://lame.sf.net/
13:56 < kanzure> apt-get install lame doesn't work
13:56 < fenn> libmp3lame0?
13:57 < fenn> i seem to have both
13:57 < kanzure> hm, it seems to have changed to 'twolame'
13:58 < fenn> no that's mpeg layer 2 i think
13:59 < kanzure> woot, it worked
13:59 < kanzure> nope, apparently not
13:59 < Splicer> .....
14:00 < Splicer> back to howard stern
14:00 < kanzure> Okay, I am set now. Got my dragonforce speedmetal and my eurodemoscene or whatever it's called, so I can get to work now.
14:02 < fenn> so is ikiwiki just a wiki that keeps its db in a repository? or can you actually edit real files with it
14:03 < kanzure> all pages are stored in git 
14:04 < kanzure> http://ikiwiki.info/features/
14:04 < kanzure> "Rather than implement its own system for storing page histories etc, ikiwiki uses a real Revision Control System. This isn't (just) because we're lazy, it's because a real RCS is a good thing to have, and there are advantages to using one that are not possible with a standard wiki."
14:04 < kanzure> --> ikiwiki can be run from a post-commit hook to update your wiki immediately whenever you commit a change using the RCS.
14:04 < fenn> yeah but what if you have some other random files in your repository, can ikiwiki show and/or edit them?
14:05 < kanzure> ikiwiki also supports files of any other type, including plain text, images, etc. These are not converted to wiki pages, they are just copied unchanged by ikiwiki as it builds your wiki. So you can check in an image, program, or other special file and link to it from your wiki pages.
14:05 < kanzure> "they are just copied unchanged by ikiwiki as it builds your wiki"
14:05 < kanzure> so I'm guessing that means it'll put up images or binaries or whatever, and not do silly wiki formatting on them
14:06 < kanzure> okay, next step is getting something like an apt frontend to an external git server install, yes? 
14:06 < fenn> uh, i dont know
14:07 < kanzure> we don't want it all a web interface
14:07 < kanzure> oh
14:07 < kanzure> I guess that's more of a server daemon to work with git on the server-end
14:07 < kanzure> so our clients connect to the daemons, which look at the directories under the control of the versioning system
14:07 < fenn> yes, an apt-like interface is desirable, but i dont know if that's the next step
14:07 < kanzure> what else?
14:08 < fenn> git already has a protocol, and a http interface
14:08 < kanzure> how so?
14:08 < fenn> git://git.fennetic.net or whatever (not set up)
14:08 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/gitdir/project-info-page or something?
14:08 < kanzure> is it something like a file selection interface?
14:08 < fenn> if you wanted to mirror the repo you'd do: git-clone git://git.fennetic.net/
14:09 < kanzure> because if I did an apt and apt-server-daemon on top of the versioning system, that's obviously redundant ...
14:09 < fenn> well, its another layer of abstraction
14:09 < kanzure> I suppose the question is how extendable the git interfacing layer is 
14:10 < fenn> if we decide git is horrible and evil we can keep the same client code and just change the server code
14:10 < kanzure> okay (and as a bonus, ikiwiki treats the versioners as a blackbox, so it doesn't rely on git, and supports others like cvs/subversion/etc)
14:13 < fenn> the git protocol is supposedly much faster than http but can have problems with bad firewalls
14:19 < kanzure> interesting, it is hard to track down anybody that knows how APT actually works
14:20 < kanzure> nobody in #debian can link me to the apt sources, and debian.org isn't being helpful either
14:20 < kanzure> but I have tracked it down to http://www.us.debian.org/doc/developers-reference/
14:20 < fenn> the real #debian is on oftc, not freenode
14:21 < kanzure> http://www.us.debian.org/doc/developers-reference/ap-tools.en.html debian package maintainer tools
14:21 < kanzure> oh
14:21 < fenn> i think they are more of a mailing list culture anyway
14:22 < kanzure> I can deal with that. :)
14:23 < fenn> it is quite strange that there's no home page for apt the software itself
14:24 < kanzure> don't tens of thousands of people use it ?
14:26 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Packaging_Tool
14:26 < kanzure> hm, maybe the focus was on dpkg
14:27 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dpkg
14:27 < kanzure> `dpkg was originally created by Matt Welsh, Carl Streeter and Ian Murdock, first as a Perl program, and then later the main part was rewritten in C by Ian Jackson in 1993. `
14:28 < kanzure> aha, yes, they are a mailing list community - http://lists.debian.org/debian-dpkg/
14:29 < fenn> i guess between a mailing list, howto pages, source repository, and documentation, there isnt a whole lot else to do with a web page
14:29 < kanzure> libapt-front --> http://libapt-front.alioth.debian.org/
14:29 < kanzure> what a terrible font on the page
14:30 < kanzure> 'debtags, the next generation package search system' go figure
14:30 < kanzure> http://debtags.alioth.debian.org/
14:30 < fenn> i was playing around with adept, which uses tags
14:30 < kanzure> what's it like?
14:30 < fenn> terrible interface, but i like the idea
14:32 < kanzure> okay, so libapt-front and debtags seem to just be interfaces to the repositories; how does the repository-architecture work?
14:32 < kanzure> this can't be too hard to mimic, could it?
14:32 < kanzure> mostly users just grab new sources-lists
14:32 < fenn> repository is just a big directory full of files, usually though they are sorted by distro version and architecture
14:33 < kanzure> and then HTTP over to the servers, get a list of packages (lots of files of short descriptions), and then download the real files for the ones they want
14:33 < kanzure> so they get some meta-data and then the user chooses what they want
14:33 < kanzure> not much to that
14:33 < fenn> the repository goes through all the packages and extracts the control files, these get glommed into whatever gets downloaded when you do an apt-get update
14:33 < fenn> control = metadata
14:34 < kanzure> so the difference here is only that we have a new way to specify package formats *and* all of these packages are in a versioning control + wiki directory (which means nothing for the interfacing and so on - so we can ignore this)
14:34 < kanzure> I am not sure if apt-get is worth using then
14:34 < kanzure> what could it possibly be but a fancy way of doing automated wget/curl calls?
14:34 < fenn> it also manages the user's installation, removing unused packages and so on
14:34 < kanzure> hm
14:35 < kanzure> actually, I am wrong on another aspect too
14:35 < kanzure> it's not just web calls when we consider things like debtags
14:35 < fenn> its not?
14:35 < fenn> what's "it" btw?
14:35 < kanzure> well, I guess we can store tags in metadata
14:35 < kanzure> apt-get interface
14:35 < kanzure> okay, nevermind, it can be in the flatfile metadata
14:35 < kanzure> I was originally considering an SQL backend somewhere
14:35 < kanzure> so that the system can do backlinks between packages and so on, but this isn't really necessary
14:36 < kanzure> that can be done by flatfile processing and ext3 to keep track of when a nasty crash didn't complete a revisioning of the files
14:36 < kanzure> backlinks means editing the other packages, wouldn't it?
14:36 < kanzure> that's what I've been thinking.
14:36 < fenn> ugh you lost me
14:37 < kanzure> backlinks are important, aren't they?
14:37 < kanzure> and so I was wondering about the implementation
14:37 < kanzure> there are a few ways to do this - they can be done in the file system, which isn't implemented in ext3, they can be done in a database (think: mediawiki backlinks), or they can be done in flatfile meta data for each of the packages
14:37 < kanzure> 1) ext3 fs modifications - meh, I don't want to do that
14:37 < fenn> i was thinking flat file metadata
14:37 < kanzure> 2) database - well, we're already doing flatfiles in a cvs thing
14:37 < fenn> stored in a git repository
14:37 < kanzure> 3) flatfile meta data - then we need some server daemons to update everything
14:38 < fenn> presented and possibly edited/annotated with a wiki
14:38 < kanzure> oh, can git do backlink-management for us?
14:38 < fenn> what is a backlink?
14:38 < kanzure> take a look at Wikipedia
14:38 < kanzure> you can click for a list of links to any article on the wiki
14:38 < kanzure> so that you see what other articles reference the current article
14:38 < fenn> search for tags basically
14:39 < kanzure> no?
14:39 < fenn> or do you mean fix dangling references when a file changes names?
14:39 < kanzure> yep, that especially
14:39 < kanzure> and also for dependency information
14:41 < kanzure> so I agree with you that flatfile would be good, with server-daemons to process the flat files and manage that sort of meta data, but what about users that are searching with tags for packages?
14:41 < kanzure> Downloading all of the meta-data might be impractical -- a wiki does this with categories/voluntary-tagging, so an interface for accessing this functionality would be nice
14:41 < kanzure> i.e., browse to http://skdb.org/tagxyz to get a processed list of backlinks, can be just plaintext generated by the server
14:42 < kanzure> that doesn't even have to be a daemon process, just a web service running under apache (a php script with some mod_rewrite turned on in the .htaccess or sites-enabled config file)
14:43 < kanzure> the service or php script or whatever would then search for all packages tagged xyz (in that example) and spit out a list of the locations of the files or their immediate metadata
14:49 < fenn> ok, so in general this means both client-side search and server-side search
14:49 < fenn> it might be impractical for every client to mirror the git repo
14:50 < fenn> but it might be practical to download all of the current metadata 
14:50 < fenn> debian has 26000 packages, and it seems to work ok to download the current metadata
14:51 < fenn> its like 10MB compressed
14:52 < fenn> we shouldnt be worrying about this stuff now though
14:53 < kanzure> 10 MB isn't bad at all
14:53 < fenn> originally i thought we could base the metadata format on debian's metadata format, but it turns out that our metadata is much more complex and will probably require code modules to parse completely
14:54 < kanzure> yep, so that's where the idea of downloadable scripts comes into play - "to read this article you need to check out this interpreter" and it would link to the various packages associated with it - "download chemistry-package-viewer?" or something
14:54 < kanzure> but allowing scripts to be edited on a wiki so easily? ehhh
14:55 < kanzure> thus the verification/authorization process
14:55 < kanzure> right?
14:55 < fenn> well, more like annotation than editing
14:55 < kanzure> who cares if you drop code in through the wiki instead of uploading via gits?
14:55 < fenn> but yes we could sign files if that's required
14:56 < kanzure> remember, in ikiwiki's case, git=wiki basically
14:57 < fenn> gEDA has a symbol library that has a web interface showing the human-based test results
14:58 < fenn> you can say 'it works' or 'it doesnt work' etc
14:58 < kanzure> okay
14:58 < kanzure> that's good too
14:58 < fenn> and then it processes those and puts a green yellow or red dot next to the symbol
14:59 < kanzure> that could be some experience-annotation data that can be summarized in the metadata, and stored in the package dir too as an extra file that somebody could trudge through if they wanted to hunt down something more specific (it would be nice if this was like bugzilla)
14:59 < fenn> maybe we could simply restrict editing of executables to developers, and have a 'discussion' page too
14:59 < fenn> people could paste diffs there
14:59 < kanzure> that works
14:59 < fenn> or maybe a patch library associated with each file somehow
15:00 < kanzure> that would be easy since it's a version control system in the first place
15:00 < kanzure> can git work in terms of diff files instead of just updating the file directly? 
15:00 < kanzure> well, updating the file directly saves time later
15:00 < fenn> git works with the concept of 'change sets'
15:01 < fenn> it's not as decentralized as darcs, you still have to have a repository to apply the changes to
15:02 < fenn> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8 (havent watched yet, will watch now)
15:03 < kanzure> what was that?
15:04 < kanzure> btw, I have a tendency to click any link except youtube, mainly because of opera+flash problems, so it has to be worth the trouble
15:04 < kanzure> haha
15:04 < fenn> linus google tech-talk on git
15:04 < kanzure> excellent
15:11 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Murdock
15:12 < kanzure> huh, apparently that's the Ian in debIAN. And he did apt. Makes sense. But I didn't know he was Murdock. The kitten in my lap happens to be named Murdoch (full name is Murdoch t. Slayer)
15:12 < fenn> torvalds isnt a very good speaker
15:12 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Package_manager might have a few hints
15:13 < kanzure> I don't know why people can't be better speakers
15:13 < kanzure> I find it easy ... just be intelligent and run the show.
15:13 < fenn> ok finally he gets going at about 10:00
15:18 < Splicer> not everyone can have a reality distortion field
15:19 < fenn> 'get away from commit access mentality' <- sounds good to me
15:20 < kanzure> hm
15:20 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portage_(software)
15:20 < kanzure> looks like Gentoo has formalized their packaging system
15:20 < kanzure> "PMS project - package manager specification"
15:21 < kanzure> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/pms.xml
15:22 < kanzure> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=2&chap=1
15:23 < kanzure> http://www.gentoo-portage.com/
15:34 < kanzure> yum sources - http://linux.duke.edu/yum/scm.ptml
15:35 < fenn> yum sucks in my experience
15:38 < kanzure> they're the only guys with readily accessible code :-/
15:38 < fenn> huh? compared to what?
15:38 < kanzure> apt, portage, ..
15:42 < fenn> here's the apt source, i cant seem to get the bzr to work http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/pool/main/a/apt/apt_0.6.46.4-0.1.tar.gz
15:44 < kanzure> I thought it was apt-frontlib or something
15:45 < fenn> i dont know what that is
15:47 < fenn> are you thinking we can re-use the source from some package manager?
15:47 < kanzure> yes
15:48 < kanzure> but if not - it doesn't look too hard to code on our own
15:54 < kanzure> ah, what I meant - libapt-front http://libapt-front.alioth.debian.org/
16:01 < fenn> huh. the website is ikiwiki
16:01 < fenn> http://web.mornfall.net/libept.html
16:01 < fenn> the new version of libapt-front
16:06 < kanzure> repository seems to be dead
16:09 < fenn> that sucks
16:18 < kanzure> fenn: the (real) #debian guys suggest http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/PythonEggs python-eggs
16:23 < kanzure> hm
16:23 < kanzure> they suggest a setup script for declaring dependencies, instead of a metadata file for dependency declaration
16:23 < kanzure> (python eggs = they)
16:25 < fenn> setup script goes through the sources and finds library calls?
16:26 < kanzure> that's what I was thinking at first, but I think they have a setup script that the chicken (programmer) makes when laying the egg
16:29 < fenn> egg looks like just another package format
16:29 < fenn> like cpan or .deb
16:29 < fenn> er, cpan is more like apt really
16:30 < fenn> but it's tailored to a specific language, which seems like reinventing the wheel
16:44 < kanzure> deb is to dpkg as cpan is to pm
16:44 < kanzure> wait
16:44 < kanzure> deb is to dpkg as pm is to cpan
16:49 < kanzure> okay, so I'm going to have to concur with your earlier comment re: different packages for different projects being more specific. The general format of the package format should always reference what user software can be used with the file format, or specify what version or ID the file format is, so that the file-format-db can be properly queried
16:49 < kanzure> so the [file-format-db] file format is the only thing we then really have to finalize, right?
16:49 < kanzure> it'll be a list of packages that can work with the input/output of that file format, like I was mentioning a few days ago
16:50 < kanzure> so two things to specify: (1) {file format db} entry format, (2) file format io parameter specs for a given program ... this is to be stored in param_io.xml in the same dir for each package, no matter whether it's software or a physical project (so data inputs or theoretical GNU units inputs)
17:37 < fenn> i wish everyone just used git as their filesystem
17:37 < fenn> or something compatible
17:38 < kanzure> there has to be somebody already using a file format database where files are distributed and are meant to reference the database ...
17:38 < fenn> there are versioning filesystems but none of them are production-stable
17:39 < fenn> and there are neat things at xeroc parc that we civilians never hear about
17:39 < kanzure> I have mega geek points of my own for having received emails from an @parc.com address ;)
17:40 < fenn> kanzure++
17:40 < kanzure> yep
17:40 < fenn> lolz
17:41 < fenn> guess docushare.xerox.com is down
17:44 < kanzure> #perl is suggesting MIME for my 'file format database' idea
17:45 < kanzure> maybe the guy didn't understand
17:45 < fenn> you should re-factor your idea and use different words
17:45 < fenn> because i dont know what you said and i think i told you the idea originally :)
17:46 < kanzure> file format database
17:46 < kanzure> you go there and say "hey, what's ID 3951041041 about?"
17:46 < kanzure> it says: "USE LYNX."
17:47 < fenn> isnt that what mime does?
17:47 < kanzure> no?
17:47 < kanzure> mime just says content-type: blah/blahblah
17:47 < fenn> except its not centralized
17:47 < fenn> mime says, for content blah/blahblah use blah-view.exe
17:47 < kanzure> mime doesn't offer you a suggestion for a database to query, nor a standardized id as far as I remember
17:47 < kanzure> hm
17:47 < kanzure> it says to use something?
17:47 < fenn> yes
17:48 < fenn> the trend as of late has been to ship web browsers with no default mime applications, so they always ask you what to do
17:48 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIME
17:48 < kanzure> no, 
17:48 < kanzure> you just said that the MIME that the web server spits out would specify a suggested program
17:48 < kanzure> and besides, I don't want just one suggested program
17:49 < kanzure> I want to link to a hard reference in a database somewhere
17:49 < fenn> not the webserver the web browser
17:49 < kanzure> so that the program can work with the meta data over there
17:49 < kanzure> but the MIME is the output of the web server
17:49 < kanzure> the whole point is that you don't have the content
17:49 < kanzure> heh'
17:49 < fenn> and the web browser tells you what to do with that
17:49 < kanzure> nor knowledge of what software can work with it
17:49 < fenn> because it knows the mime type
17:50 < fenn> mime is like an unambiguous filename extension
17:50 < kanzure> then how's that not what we want?
17:50 < fenn> you still have to associate the mime type with an application
17:51 < kanzure> that's what the database was supposed to do
17:51 < fenn> so, it's half of what we want
17:51 < kanzure> but you claim that the browser would do that
17:51 < kanzure> but the browser wouldn't know that necessarily
17:51 < kanzure> so I guess the trick is to download mime types
17:51 < kanzure> from teh db?
17:51 < fenn> there shouldnt be too many mime types, can you just include them with the package manager?
17:52 < kanzure> I don't know what that means
17:52 < kanzure> if we were using APT for the package manager, include them in APT?
17:52 < fenn> how do you store mime metadata about a file? in the package metadata, one for each file?
17:52 < kanzure> hm
17:52 < kanzure> there's a few options
17:53 < kanzure> - one giant one for the entire metadata of the package
17:53 < fenn> say there's an infinite number of file formats out there on the intarweb, but we only use 200 different file formats
17:53 < kanzure> - one dot-mime file/header for each file in the package
17:53 < fenn> ew
17:53 < kanzure> yeah ...
17:54 < kanzure> why isn't mime integrated into a file system
17:54 < kanzure> unambiguous file extensions are ideal
17:54 < fenn> well, what i'm saying is that the package cant possibly know about all the different programs out there, which might be newer than the package itself
17:54 < kanzure> oh, sure
17:54 < kanzure> I agree
17:54 < kanzure> the point is that the user's interface to the package database
17:54 < kanzure> should be able to query a file-format-database and check for software that can work with those formats
17:55 < kanzure> anything specific to the package would be specified in the package file of course
17:55 < fenn> so, when you do a metadata update, the package manager downloads a new list of mime <-> program associations
17:55 < kanzure> who is 'you'? a package maintainer? an end-user?
17:55 < fenn> end-user
17:55 < kanzure> hm, perhaps - why not just do a metadata update for the current package?
17:56 < kanzure> I guess you can download all mime<->program assocs
17:56 < fenn> because it might be out of date
17:56 < fenn> it might tell you to use mosaic for html files
17:56 < kanzure> nono, the package has its metadata somewhere
17:56 < kanzure> oh
17:56 < fenn> then you need to download both mosaic and netscape
17:56 < kanzure> you're just saying that instead of my "ask the db" model
17:56 < kanzure> do an entire download of the mime-program assocs
17:56 < kanzure> that's fine
17:56 < kanzure> that's just minor details methinks
17:57 < kanzure> the reason I want that database though is so that you can do the backlinks to other programs that work with the formats
17:57 < kanzure> plus it's a good way to aggregate a list of mime-prog assocs that the end-user would be doing updates on too =)
17:58 < fenn> true/false: end user should be able to determine what program is used to process a file
17:58 < fenn> s/be able//
18:00 < fenn> i forget why we need to do this stuff in the first place
18:01 < kanzure> hm
18:01 < kanzure> well, I thought it was because of the packages in skdb
18:01 < kanzure> the package format for an element is by no means the same thing as for an automobile
18:01 < kanzure> there's different stuff that you have to specify
18:02 < kanzure> and then you have different programs that can deal with that file format
18:03 < fenn> it would be nice if all the programs out there already specified which mime-types they could use
18:03 < kanzure> right
18:04 < fenn> i dont exactly want to re-package a million chemistry and cad programs
18:04 < kanzure> but instead we have to do this metadata for them
18:04 < fenn> and provide infrastructure to download them
18:04 < kanzure> :( what else can we do ?
18:04 < fenn> i'd rather just say 'do apt-get stuff'
18:04 < kanzure> btw, I don't know about repackaging
18:04 < kanzure> think of us as a ghost extra layer
18:07 < kanzure> this way we just say "download this package, over here, at this site, at this version" 
18:07 < kanzure> and then we can add in more software on our own infrastructure if necessary
18:19 < fenn> version control should really be visualized in 3d
18:19 < kanzure> for the navigation, or for a real variabilized use of the three dimensional axis?
18:20 < fenn> for navigating multiple files and seeing the changes/continuity
18:20 < Splicer> maybe when the good cheap 3d goggles arrive
18:21 < fenn> naw we already have opengl acceleration, i think it's good enough
18:21 < Splicer> this thing you´re building... is it xml based?
18:21 < fenn> yes, probably
18:23 < fenn> re: mime metadata, it strikes me as similar to Makefiles
18:23 < Splicer> curious to see how you will succeed with it... if it gets to be a defacto standard... it would be a cool piece of work
18:23 < fenn> Splicer: honestly i'd rather have a CAD program
18:23 < Splicer> taling about goggles now?
18:23 < Splicer> talking
18:24 < kanzure> yes, similar to makefiles in more ways than one ... make for compilation v. make for however-else-you-process-information
18:24 < fenn> technology management isnt that useful when there's no tools to create the technology with
18:24 < kanzure> 'make' should be called 'prepare'
18:24 < Splicer> i didn´t know
18:25 < kanzure> haha, some poor high school student just asked me for some links on study stuff for his AP exams
18:25 < kanzure> so now he's drowning in 40,000 links that I just gave him
18:26 < Splicer> i bet he didn´t see that one coming.... never seen anyone harvest links like you do
18:27 < kanzure> Google?
18:27 < Splicer> yeah.. well
18:27 < Splicer> a living spider
18:28 < kanzure> http://www.dichotomistic.com/mind_readings_spider%20minds.html
18:28 < kanzure> that's a good one on spiders
18:28 < Splicer> hahahaha
18:28 < kanzure> http://www.nus.edu.sg/corporate/research/gallery/research82.htm spiders with selective attention
18:28 < kanzure> http://www.nus.edu.sg/corporate/research/gallery/research82.htm spider web as a neural net
18:28 < fenn> http://thecoffeefix.blogspot.com/2006/07/spider-webs-on-caffeine.html
18:28 < kanzure> I'd like to do an fMRI study on a spider brain as it spins a web ... I have no idea how it's doing that.
18:28 < kanzure> yes
18:29 < kanzure> drugged spiders (LSD, not just caffeine): 
18:29 < kanzure> http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n13/experiment/spider.htm
18:29 < kanzure> http://www.cannabis.net/weblife.html
18:29 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHzdsFiBbFc
18:31 < Splicer> does anyone remeber seeing the documantry where kary mullis talks about lsd?
18:32 < kanzure> No?
18:32 < Splicer> have you seen an interview with him ever?
18:33 < kanzure> no?
18:34 < Splicer> I don´t know but he looks like maybe ha spent too much time with acid
18:35 < kanzure> http://fusionanomaly.net/ <-- too much acid
18:36 < Splicer> there is an interview in a documentary where he talks about how he used to lie in bed on acid, watching imaginery molecules and playing with them...
18:37 < Splicer> he says that it was because he used to do that he eventually invented pcr
18:37 < Splicer> He's a strange guy
18:38 < fenn> gee everythin cool happened in 1969
18:39 < Splicer> not sure i´d want to trade place with mullis
18:40 < kanzure> This poor kid doesn't get it ... I have absolutely *no* links on economics
18:41 < fenn> are there any other exponential growth processes like pcr that we have control over?
18:42 < fenn> maybe some beam splitting optics setup could be construed to be an exponential growth process
18:44 < Splicer> pcr is pretty elegant
18:48 < kanzure> fenn: don't like those prospects of the 'ghost layer'? heh
18:49 < fenn> sounds like a lot of work is all
18:49 < fenn> non-productive work
18:50 < kanzure> how is it nonproductive
18:50 < kanzure> bruteforcing may be the only way to do solid state exponential growth processes
18:52 < fenn> well its nonproductive because it really should be someone else's job
18:53 < fenn> i mean, we arent any closer to having a technology distribution just because the software works
18:53 < kanzure> right, it'll take some time to fill in all of the details
18:53 < fenn> its like setting up a website with no content
18:54 < fenn> sometimes the structure _is_ the content, but not when it's just how to deal with third party extensions
18:54 < kanzure> obviously the structure would also include specific data though
18:54 < kanzure> like in the package for an automobile, wouldn't you make it somewhat automobile specific?
18:55 < kanzure> and then write up some software locally too?
18:55 < kanzure> there's no reason that it has to be all third party software
18:55 < kanzure> the point is that you're not going to rewrite software that is already out there
18:55 < fenn> ah, now i see how you got on this track
18:55 < kanzure> please explain
18:56 < fenn> i was thinking you could specify the custom code explicitly, directly, like automobile::safety-rating
18:56 < fenn> automobile would be a custom code module
18:57 < fenn> each car design would reference the automobile code (or write their own specifications if there is no possibility for generalization)
18:57 < fenn> i think there's always possibility for generalization, and it will help clarify what you're trying to do
18:57 < kanzure> and instead?
18:57 < Splicer> a stupid question; aren´t you describing xml?
18:57 < fenn> not "CNC mill" but "3d subtractive shape-modification"
18:58 < fenn> Splicer: xml is just a serialization format for structured data
18:58 < kanzure> the problem with your custom code object library is that it's a giant OOP library of madness
18:58 < Splicer> ok.. the recepie of xml then
18:58 < Splicer> the dtd
18:58 < kanzure> have you been reading what we've been talking about?
18:58 < fenn> Splicer: you could have an xml file with something like <module name="automobile"><element name="safety-rating">6.8</el></mod>
18:58 < kanzure> basically DTD is only for verification/parsing
18:59 < kanzure> but not for MIME-data
18:59 < fenn> but without code backing up those names they're just words
18:59 < kanzure> yep
18:59 < kanzure> so you have to have modules that can parse and interpret and work with that information
18:59 < fenn> kanzure: could you expand on giant oop library of madness
19:00 < Splicer> i think i understood, i was talking about the the ghost layer as I understood it
19:00 < Splicer> seen this btw?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idTj5JXgoLs
19:00 < kanzure> fenn: well, a giant OOP library of madness would have everything given a specific type and class; you could say truck inherits from car inherits from vehicle inherits from tech inherits from blah; this is too strict and demands way too much; after all, what about the other ways of classifying everything?
19:01 < kanzure> the alternative is to just have packages that have software associated with them, more decentralized
19:01 < kanzure> (except all of the software happens to be hosted by us locally or whatever - or in the case where we're just ghosting metadata we're pointing to other projects and their repositories)
19:01 < fenn> Splicer: yeah and i hate how they use that big fucking gantry
19:02 < Splicer> there are other versions
19:03 < fenn> and they really should use arches
19:04 < fenn> like, what keeps the window from collapsing as soon as it's made
19:05 < Splicer> they have this little arm that puts a beam over top of the window as the printer gets there
19:05 < fenn> kanzure: oop doesn't have to be strict and rigid, that's just how java and c++ do it
19:06 < fenn> the more you use beams and prefab components the less useful the system becomes
19:07 < fenn> well, the more you have to
19:07 < fenn> anyway, they should use a robocrane
19:07 < fenn> or this thing i invented: http://fennetic.net/sketches/hexegrity.png
19:07 < fenn> springs in the wrong place, they should go radially, not tangential
19:08 < kanzure> think of skdb as an aggregation layer and then autogenix as a way to query the aggregation layer to get stuff done
19:09 < fenn> ok, good, interfaces, let's do more of those :)
19:09 < kanzure> sarcasm?
19:09 < fenn> no, serious
19:09 < fenn> when's the last time you said 'this darn thing has too many interfaces'
19:10 < Splicer> fenn: a piece of art? 
19:10 < fenn> splicer it's an xyz/rpw crane
19:10 < kanzure> Splicer: I was thinking more along the lines of "a woman?" but then I realized that's a great thing
19:10 < kanzure> oh
19:10 < kanzure> you weren't answering his direct question
19:10 < kanzure> heh
19:10 < fenn> attach the concrete extruder to the blue spool shape, then vary the length of the black lines
19:11 < fenn> it's hard to visualize if you have nothing to compare it to, so dont worry if you dont understand
19:11 < Splicer> it torques around z axis right?
19:12 < kanzure> torque = force * radius
19:12 < kanzure> so I think you mean spins?
19:12 < Splicer> rotates
19:12 < Splicer> yeah
19:12 < fenn> if you tighten the top 3 and loosen the bottom 3 it will rotate clockwise (looking down)
19:13 < Splicer> but how is it a crane?
19:13 < fenn> well, it can move in XYZ too
19:13 < fenn> and because it's just wires attached at 3 points, it's easy to make arbitrarily large
19:14 < fenn> the 3 orange things would be at the top of 3 towers
19:14 < fenn> you could do that by erecting a large octahedron, or just a prism if the loads are going to be low
19:14 < Splicer> yeah
19:15 < fenn> here's something similar http://fennetic.net/machines/robocrane
19:15 < Splicer> http://www.pbase.com/qleap/image/52265074
19:16 < fenn> yes, that's a tensegrity
19:17 < fenn> its not as tall as it looks in the photo, the beams get shorter as you go up
19:17 < Splicer> yeah, first time i heard the term was with that tower
19:19 < fenn> could be interesting to make a 'robot arm' where you stack several of these and reel the wire in and out
19:19 < fenn> i bet that's how nano utility-fog will turn out
19:19 < fenn> instead of this cube nonsense
19:19 < kanzure> hm?
19:20 < fenn> just a mesh network of things with two connectors that can extend and retract
19:20 < Splicer> cause of the powercords?;)
19:20 < fenn> each connector could hook on to more than one other connector
19:20 < kanzure> solid state fabrication is the key, I still want to investigate piezoelectric semiconductor nanocrytals for the piezo effect and field effect as a way to do self-replication; but that's just a hunch
19:20 < fenn> i think you'd need to connect four at once to make a stable structure (tetrahedrons)
19:20 < kanzure> esp. if the nanocrystals are mostly carbon
19:21 < fenn> did you see the smay lab ceramic squirter link?
19:21 < kanzure> yes, didn't do a full recurse through it though
19:21 < kanzure> not yet
19:21 < kanzure> it's in my queue
19:22 < fenn> well, it's basically reprap/contour crafting but with ceramics, and he's done some PZT research, so maybe it will turn into something useful
19:23 < kanzure> huh
19:23 < fenn> PZT = a piezo ceramic
19:24 < fenn> otherwise how do you get the piezo crystals to assume the shape you want?
19:25 < kanzure> I was thinking of nanopiezos
19:25 < kanzure> so that they're all of roughly the same size
19:25 < kanzure> little tiny beads
19:25 < fenn> making them smaller doesnt magically mean they will be the shape you want
19:25 < fenn> you just get a pile of beads
19:26 < fenn> maybe you could do acoustic holography to promote crystal growth in certain areas :P
19:27 < kanzure> I have to be careful with this techno-music. It sort of satisfies my 'repetition obsession' because of the musical repetivity. So instead of doing something I just sit there blankly -- not good. hehe
19:28 < fenn> hah. you could say that about any music (not just repetitve stuff)
19:30 < Splicer> i have howard stern on... requires no processing power
19:30 < fenn> just noise
19:30 < fenn> it's hard to really think when there's noise on
19:31 < Splicer> it's odd but voices are ok form me, i block them out better than music now
19:33 < Splicer> Maiden sold 82000 tickets in 2.5hrs here last year
19:35 < Splicer> pop of sweden is about 9 million... so close to a percent of the population went to see them
19:46 < kanzure> Iron Maiden?
19:46 < Splicer> yes
19:46 < kanzure> X Japan just came back at the Tokyo Dome. Within a month of announcement, all 80,000 tickets were sold, they had to add another 45,000 (an entire day of performance); rather impressive.
19:46 < kanzure> It was going at something like $120/ticket
19:46 < Splicer> a month is longer than 2.5h
19:50 < kanzure> hm
19:50 < fenn> torque = force * radius / angle
19:50 < fenn> the whole world's got it wrong
19:50 < kanzure> really?
19:50 < kanzure> can you cite a few links?
19:50 < fenn> otherwise it's just force * distance = energy
19:51 < kanzure> work = force * distance = energy
19:51 < kanzure> this is the 'physics' they are teaching these days
19:51 < kanzure> in schools, at least.
19:51 < fenn> torque is obviously not energy, you have to have torque over an angle
19:52 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque#Extended_units_in_relation_with_rotation_angles
19:53 < fenn> it stems from the idiotic decision not to make angles a base unit
19:53 < fenn> instead they are just 'nothing'
19:53 < fenn> as if that were supposed to help somehow
19:55 < Splicer> it looks normal to me
19:58 < fenn> Splicer: Nm/rad looks normal to you?
19:59 < Splicer> as compared to what? I'm used to the metric system
20:00 < fenn> Nm is the normal way to specify torque (though i'm arguing that it's wrong)
20:02 < Splicer> that looks like the way to define any energy
20:03 < fenn> this is where the SI bureaucrat says 'no no monsieur, that is mN'
20:03 < fenn> eh something like that
20:03 < fenn> mN would be millinewton, m*N is work
20:03 < Splicer> well.. it happens to be pretty much the rest of the world you know
20:04 < fenn> huh? i'm just saying the SI is wrong
20:05 < Splicer> it's the way it's defined, so it really can´t be wrong
20:06 < fenn> no, it's inconsistent, therefore it's wrong
20:07 < fenn> you cant have two symbols meaning the same thing
20:07 < fenn> er, that's not what i meant
20:07 < fenn> you cant have two different concepts that use the same symbol
20:07 < fenn> in the same context
20:08 < Splicer> N*m is always written Nm, mN is milli Newton
20:08 < fenn> ok sure, that's basic
20:08 < Splicer> it would be like writing kg gk some of the time
20:10 < fenn> the point is that N * m = J = energy, but torque is not energy
20:12 < kanzure> My flow was interrupted. What was I going to be doing?
20:13 < fenn> learning how to write a DTD or XML schema? :)
20:13 < fenn> Schema
20:13 < kanzure> We've figured out that it's going to be best called an interface layer; ikiwiki+git+autogenix-frontend, MIME types for file information, 
20:13 < fenn> i'm not fully onboard with the MIME stuff
20:14 < Splicer> mine too
20:14 < fenn> just metadata about every file
20:14 -!- Aulere [n=dragon_d@131.229.176.252] has joined #hplusroadmap
20:15 < kanzure> okay
20:15 < fenn> i think the original idea was that you have a simulator, and it makes some output, and you wanted a way to describe what that output was
20:15 < kanzure> sure, same with input too
20:15 < kanzure> "this simulator takes a CAD file as input"
20:16 < kanzure> but just like we do this file format io specs for the software, we want it for the file formats too, right?
20:16 < kanzure> so that we can backlink and trace and so on
20:16 < fenn> maybe there are already some RDF frameworks for describing file contents that we could take advantage of
20:17 < kanzure> how about this, we throw everything into a tar
20:17 < kanzure> if you have a 3DS file, it goes into a tar
20:17 < fenn> whee
20:17 < kanzure> and then inside the tar is a meta file
20:17 < kanzure> simple, no?
20:17 < kanzure> and then we just enforce tar compliance
20:17 < fenn> unfortunately it doesnt solve any problem
20:18 < Splicer> fenn: Too tired to think about the torque thing, it doesn´t seem strange to me because they are different meters.
20:18 < fenn> so now one meter's different from another meter eh? you sir, are a meterist
20:19 < kanzure> it solves the problem, as long as we define the meta format -- all meta formats will be of the same version, they simply specify a hash or ID number for the other files in the same dir
20:19 < kanzure> right?
20:19  * fenn drools
20:19 < Splicer> fenn: hehe, yeah
20:19  * Splicer goes to sleep
20:19 < Splicer> cu
20:19 < kanzure> cya
20:19 -!- Splicer [n=p@h116n3c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit []
20:20 < fenn> you could just glom all the meta files together and forget about tar
20:21 < fenn> then you can do stuff like: cadfiles/*.cad <cad-program>
20:21 < kanzure> huh? but the idea is to package them in the same directory as the files that they describe
20:21 < fenn> it doesnt matter where they are
20:21 < kanzure> okay
20:21 < kanzure> so these metafiles are package specific
20:21 < kanzure> this is different than the metafiles that would be downloaded (those 10 MB) for package descriptions
20:21 < fenn> it could be on the other side of the planet, as long as your hash key doesn't collide
20:21 < kanzure> just to make sure we have that cleared up
20:22 < kanzure> sure, makes sense
20:22 < kanzure> where would we opt to put these in git?
20:22 < fenn> but i dont like hash keys, they're the antithesis of readability
20:22 < kanzure> same-level directory?
20:22 < kanzure> just like make files are thrown into the same-level?
20:22 < fenn> so this is how i ended up at Makefile
20:23 < fenn> ever read "recursive make considered harmful"?
20:23 < kanzure> no?
20:24 < fenn> well, basically, the idea is that it's better to specify relationships in a single place, rather than spread out all over the place
20:25 < fenn> but you also want to keep the relationships close to the objects they describe
20:26 < kanzure> wait, so why is recursive make considered harmful?
20:26 < kanzure> oh, I see
20:26 < fenn> maybe i should read it again
20:26 < kanzure> I am used to the multidir make systems :P
20:26 < kanzure> and I suppose it is harmful, since it's that much harder to update
20:26 < kanzure> and refactor ..
20:26 < fenn> i think the problem is that the different make processes can't communicate
20:29 < kanzure> makes sense.
20:43 < fenn> the problem was that each make process builds its own dependency tree, so changes in one module can cause conflicts in other modules without you knowing about it. also, changes dont propagate automatically so things get out of date
20:46 < fenn> sometimes i wonder if LSD wouldnt help loosen up the connections between peoples' neurons (mutation) and thus speed up the software bottleneck
20:46 < fenn> you know, the generation of physicists must die before we get anything new, yada yada
20:48 < kanzure> while I agree, I take a much more cautionary stance with molecules and my brain
20:49 < kanzure> I haven't read too many studies trying to characterize LSD and its interactions
20:49 < fenn> another something like slip-xml, with standards-body clout: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notation_3
20:51 < fenn> kanzure: yeah and dont you think that's quite an embarrassment to the neurosci community?
20:51 < fenn> here we have this huge cultural phenomenon and nobody's studied it because it's taboo
20:52 < kanzure> I always assumed it was because I just didn't find the studies yet
20:52 < kanzure> surely they are out there
20:53 < kanzure> I mean, we have 50% of the nation's high school students on weekly alcohol, and a significant percentage on acid too
20:53 < fenn> the only people who ever talk about it are 'druggies' by which i mean subjective anecdotes, even though there are obviously some very objectively significant effects
20:53 < kanzure> right
20:53 < kanzure> they're coming from the other end
20:53 < kanzure> as opposed to science -> down
20:54 < fenn> what exactly are the effects of LSD?
20:54 < kanzure> they're doing social interactions with druggie peers -> science
20:54 < kanzure> hallucinations, I hear
20:54 < kanzure> but I don't know what that means in terms of neurosci
20:54 < fenn> that doesnt mean anything really
20:54 < kanzure> I'm sure it's some kind of agonist or antagonist
20:54 < fenn> money is a hallucination
20:54 < fenn> the internet is a hallucination
20:54 < kanzure> visual cortex interruptant?
20:54 < fenn> maybe
20:55 < fenn> i think those are just the easiest subjective experiences to communicate
20:55 < fenn> visual experiences
20:55 < fenn> you cant easily explain god perched on your head like a giant flaming bird
20:55 < fenn> (from that movie about jesus)
20:56 < kanzure> good point
20:57 < kanzure> have you read my thinking.html page?
20:57 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/thinking.html
20:57 < kanzure> see the point about Poincare
20:57 < kanzure> one of the first four large blockquotes
20:57 < kanzure> he was describing his hypnagogic state that he gets into when doing mathematics or just before sleeping,
20:57 < kanzure> and I have to admit I understand where he's coming from - the brain is very massive and can get easily confused, lots of various processing going on that is hard to identify all at once,
20:58 < fenn> ideonomics = gas molecules
20:58 < kanzure> heh
20:58  * fenn mumbles something unintelligible about quantum computing
20:59 < fenn> i'm sure we've all experienced heightened intellectual ability just before or after sleeping
20:59 < fenn> then you have to jump up and run across the cold floor to write it down, or you'll forget
21:00 < fenn> and that's the end of it, usually
21:00 < fenn> maybe you'll get an aftershock
21:00 < kanzure> it gets hard to capture thoughts down sometimes
21:00 < kanzure> you know the erowid.org experience reports? I want those for thinking *in general*
21:01 < kanzure> you don't need nootropics to have a reason to describe weird thinking effects and so on
21:01 < fenn> i think of it as if your brain has an analog signal that you can't record, you have to put it into a digital form using symbols if you want to remember anything
21:01 < fenn> yeah but nobody's into thinking, just us nerds
21:01 < fenn> h++
21:02  * fenn cries in his milk
21:03 < fenn> i've changed my stance on neural networks after watching geoff hinton's google talk
21:03 < kanzure> how so?
21:03 < fenn> they can categorize raw data
21:03 < kanzure> what was your stance, and now what is your stance?
21:03 < fenn> then you can do logical operations on that data!
21:04 < fenn> i used to think it was bunk pseudoscience, that they were trying to explain how the brain works without any experimental verification
21:05 < fenn> so anyway, it solves the symbol grounding problem, because then you have a connection between raw data (sensory input or WWW documents) and logical symbols
21:06 < fenn> still there's the (minor?) problem of how to do it automatically, to build a 'brain' out of neural networks
21:06 < fenn> and also motivation, goals, state
21:09 < fenn> its basically a general modeling system, but the components are simple and regular, so its easier to deal with than more accurate but complex/irregular code elements
21:09 < fenn> then you can run algorithms with the algorithms
21:09 < fenn> (not just with the results of the algorithm)
21:09 < fenn> blah, i'm babbling
21:15 < kanzure> hm, it was bunk pseudoscience as far as I'm concerned, 
21:15 < kanzure> until recently I realized the entire field of computational neurosci
21:15 < kanzure> I am truly impressed with it :)
21:15 < kanzure> they aren't doing simple ANNs any more
21:16 < kanzure> they're doing ion channel simulations, molecular dynamics, DNA/RNA physics, protein scenarios, signalling pathways, cognitive modeling, the brain atlas projects, gene maps, etc. etc.
21:18 < kanzure> crap, I just realized I've been listening to the same song for the past hour
21:21 < kanzure> fenn: I don't understand Notation3. Why not just flat-out XML?
21:33 < fenn> because its hard to read
21:34 < fenn> no, i mean ANN's
21:34 < fenn> the whole ion channel simulations and stuff, what's the point
21:35 < fenn> its a horrendously complicated and roundabout way of doing 'it' whatever 'it' is
21:35 < fenn> sure a simulated brain would be cool, but it's sorta like a simulated clock escapement
21:36 < fenn> just use the digital clock signal you already have
21:36 < fenn> ANN's is like automated programming though
21:37 < fenn> the algorithms you're allowed to use are really simple, or they would break (they're error tolerant)
21:38 < fenn> you could throw in something like a fourier transform, or a mapreduce, somewhere in the ANN hierarchy
21:39 < fenn> actually, a lot of the functions of mapreduce can be done with ANN's
21:41 < fenn> the problem is they are hard to read.. it's not obvious what the network is doing because it doesnt have a nice name like generateHashKeys()
21:42 < kanzure> in general I think it would be better if we had more supercomputers to play with to test out our NN ideas
21:42 < fenn> we do have supercomputers, what are you talking about
21:42 < kanzure> do I have them accessible to me
21:42  * fenn pokes at the 1.6GHz 1GB ram 500GB storage space
21:42 < fenn> giga!
21:43 < fenn> how many orders of magnitude excess capacity do you need?
21:43 < kanzure> I think Merkle did some calculations on that
21:43 < kanzure> just so that I can see where you are coming from
21:43 < kanzure> how much reading on ai have you done?
21:43 < kanzure> and brain simulation technologies?
21:43 < fenn> very little on brain simulation
21:43 < kanzure> there are many arguments for many different scenarios
21:44 < fenn> i like the 'nanobots take over for dead neurons' idea
21:44 < kanzure> for example, Novamente and the Goertzel crowd are doing parallel 'emergent' stuff (?)
21:44 < kanzure> while the Yudkowsky approach I don't really know much about, he's a bit of a hermit
21:44 < fenn> that was on purpose, ostensibly
21:44 < kanzure> then there are other approaches, such as the Markram simulations, which have produced functional working models of rat brains
21:44 < fenn> "to prevent dangerous ideas from getting into the hands of the wrong people"
21:45 < kanzure> ugh
21:45 < fenn> even though he admits they are just as foolish as anyone
21:45 < kanzure> I wish I could get funding for not wanting to talk about my ideas
21:45 < fenn> its a big split in his fanclub
21:45 < kanzure> that would be awesome
21:45 < kanzure> yes, he does have a fanclub
21:45 < kanzure> and it's rather fanatical at times
21:45 < kanzure> it's somewhat impressive
21:45 < kanzure> do you monitor sl4.org?
21:45 < fenn> yes
21:45 < kanzure> they have massive, intense debates that go nowehre
21:45 < kanzure> *nowhere
21:45 < kanzure> although the front page might have been written from a time when SL4 was more productive
21:46 < fenn> because the stakes are high (or so they think)
21:46 < fenn> and there isnt any other forum
21:46 < kanzure> all of the old men on the extropian mailing list have compared me to Yudkowsky
21:46 < kanzure> it's kind of weird
21:46 < fenn> why?
21:46 < kanzure> "smart young kid with lots of ideas" 
21:46 < kanzure> but then they always mention that Yudkowsky screwed up
21:46 < kanzure> lemme go get a quote
21:46 < fenn> hm, i dont really follow the connection
21:47 < kanzure> huh?
21:47 < fenn> there must be other smart young kids with lots of ideas
21:47 < kanzure> "There was another prodigy we had on the list a number of years ago who
21:47 < kanzure> didn't get this concept.  He posted on Exi-chat in his teens, and a very
21:47 < kanzure> insightful teenager he was.  He is a great mind; nearly 30 now.  But he has
21:47 < kanzure> limited himself severely by not realizing the value of other people's ideas.
21:47 < kanzure> He is convinced that all of a person's great ideas are finished by age 30,
21:47 < kanzure> so he is facing the prodigy's crisis. "
21:48 < kanzure> you'd think so, and I think I know all of them
21:48 < kanzure> I hope there's more, but I'd bet they would be as vocal as I am.
21:48 < fenn> ah, and here's where LSD comes in
21:48 < kanzure> ?
21:48 < fenn> as i was just explaining, i think LSD and friends loosen the connection between neurons, thus making your perception of reality less strong, allowing new paradigms to take hold
21:49 < fenn> so you dont have to die in order to have a fresh perspective of the world
21:49 < fenn> i think this will become a major issue once old age is defeated
21:50 < fenn> we'll have all these fogeys around telling the kids that they're wrong all the time, and jangling the keys/funding
21:50 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damien_Broderick wrote to me - "I'm impressed by your posts; given that you're still at highschool 
21:50 < kanzure> (if I understood that correctly), I'd guess you might be the smartest 
21:50 < kanzure> kid to show up on the list since Eliezer. (And apologies for "kid" if 
21:50 < kanzure> that's seen as offensive--I mean it only chronologically.) I'm 
21:50 < kanzure> curious--have you had a formal IQ test? If so, care to disclose the number?"
21:50 < fenn> so nothing will get done
21:50 < fenn> ugh IQ gimme a break
21:50 < kanzure> hm, perhaps
21:50 < kanzure> yeah I know
21:50 < kanzure> I basically told him "I'll look into it"
21:50 < kanzure> but I won't.
21:50 < fenn> have you ever measured the size of your cock? if so, care to disclose the number?
21:51 < kanzure> do I get to add the obligatory two inches or not ?
21:51 < kanzure> heh
21:51 < kanzure> if only IQ was measured that way
21:51 < kanzure> I mean, that's really simple, isn't it?
21:51 < kanzure> whereas IQ tests are much more weird
21:51 < Aulere> lol
21:52 < fenn> eh? its not the size baby, its how you use it
21:52 < kanzure> since when is IQ size?
21:52 < fenn> since they started measuring it as a number?
21:52 < kanzure> yep
21:52 < Aulere> there should be an IQ test for each broadman's area; then it would come close to being accurate.
21:53 < fenn> seriously, why would you ask someone for an IQ test result, that's demeaning
21:53 < kanzure> it is
21:53 < Aulere> actually, I take that back. global interaction would have to be accounted for.
21:54 < kanzure> Aulere, I don't think so.
21:54 < fenn> intelligence is such a jumbled self-influencing mess of factors, i dont know how you can hope to get anything meaningful out of it
21:55 < Aulere> gifts differing.
21:55 < kanzure> gifts?
21:55 < kanzure> I had to work hard to get my mind the way it is. Screw gifts.
21:55 < fenn> gifts dont have anything to do with intelligence, it's basically a way of saying you are a statistical anomaly
21:55 < Aulere> lol
21:55 < Aulere> it's an expression, have you never heard of it?
21:55 < fenn> intelligence is good at creating statistically unlikely things
21:56 < fenn> Aulere: it's more than an expression, it's a meme we have to fight very hard against constantly
21:56 < kanzure> there are many expressions
21:56 < fenn> god gave you this, be thankful for it and dont question the status quo, you little shit
21:56 < Aulere> ok. It's imprecise, which is my sin.
21:56 < kanzure> sin?
21:56  * kanzure doesn't think Aulere gets it
21:56 < kanzure> :(
21:57 < kanzure> But anyway. What were we talking about earlier?
21:57 < Aulere> Ok, what do I not get?
21:57 < Aulere> Explain it to me.
21:57 < Aulere> First,
21:57 < kanzure> No, let me type. :)
21:57 < Aulere> I'm not saying that it's a gift. It was just an expression.
21:57 < Aulere> ok
21:57  * fenn passes the speaker's staff to kanzure
21:58 < Aulere> (The expression was just meant to communicate that everyone's intelligence is different )
21:58 < kanzure> Just the whole meme-fighting thing-- first it's gift, which you mentioned was imprecise, sure, and then you go on about sinning? That's also status quo, there's lots of memes that we have to intensely fight.
21:58 < kanzure> but then why is it useful to call it intelligence
21:58 < kanzure> it's not :(
21:58 < Aulere> ok, "sin" was for comic effect
21:58 < kanzure> in fact, 'it' might not even exist (thus my tendency to drop the word 'intelligence' in my conversations)
21:58 < fenn> sin can also be thought of as an inconsistent system
21:58 < kanzure> nevermind then
21:58 < kanzure> perhaps
21:58 < kanzure> design flaw?
21:59 < fenn> cognitive dissonance
21:59 < kanzure> that works.
21:59 < fenn> it can be a result of environment and meme-clash as anything
21:59 < kanzure> fenn and I have troubles communicating as it is when trying to get the software specs down heh'
21:59 < fenn> i mean, a logic engine that breaks as soon as there's conflicting information is a bad design
22:00 < Aulere> Sooo to summarize: "gifts differing" just means varying ability levels... "sin" is just a comic instrument.
22:00 < fenn> Aulere: you havent spoken much, we dont know what you believe in general
22:00 < Aulere> I'll have to be careful about speaking in expressions around you.
22:00 < kanzure> haha, don't feel attacked
22:00 < kanzure> we're just digesting and processing
22:01 < Aulere> ok
22:01 < fenn> irc is limited but i still feel it's better for technical conversations than telephone or videophone
22:02 < kanzure> it'd be even worse in those scenarios
22:03 < fenn> things like sarcasm and implied statements dont translate well into irc
22:03 < Aulere> especially with people who are highly technical to begin with.
22:03 < fenn> unfortunately, implied statements is a major feature of english natural language data compression
22:04 < kanzure> highly technical --> maybe 'highly direct'
22:04 < Aulere> overly literal?
22:04 < Aulere> :)
22:04 < fenn> is there such a thing? :P
22:04 < kanzure> if we're going to muck with the brain, then I'm going to go puncture the brain and put some stuff in there ;)
22:04 < Aulere> lol
22:05 < kanzure> it's *right there*
22:05 < fenn> kanzure what about TMS
22:05 < fenn> seems less.. invasive
22:05 < Aulere> too many seizures after repeated use. 
22:05 < Aulere> And we know kanzure would like repeated use ;-)
22:05 < Aulere> hehe
22:05 < kanzure> fenn: I am all for TMS. Don't know what Aulere is talking about ... might have to go hunt down those articles.
22:05 < fenn> i hear he's a repetitition adddict
22:06 < kanzure> I'm becoming one.
22:06 < Aulere> it would take *alot* of repititions
22:06 < Aulere> er repetitions.
22:06 < fenn> kanzure: do you have any insight on what induces behavior we've labeled 'autistic'?
22:06 < Aulere> yes, he does.
22:07 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/recursion.html
22:07 < kanzure> Hm.
22:08 < fenn> i mean, some people choose to follow that path and some dont, despite similar biological/genetic factors (perhaps different environmental and social factors)
22:08 < kanzure> I don't know how to explain my general understanding of autism, but I see way too many correlations between autism, repetitions, programming, transhumanism, etc., to be a coincidence. It might just be my own interest-bias appearing.
22:08 < kanzure> In particular, autists seem to be able to block out intrusive noise ... how's that *not* programming?
22:08 < fenn> i can't do that
22:08 < fenn> or, i dont know how to do that
22:08 < kanzure> perhaps, but let me give you an example
22:09 < kanzure> have you ever had the "anger reaction" when startled?
22:09 < fenn> yes
22:09 < fenn> particularly when i'm in the bathroom :)
22:09 < kanzure> for example, when somebody walks into my room and I'm deep in coding, I suddenly, spontaneously throw off my headphones and yell out a random-ass "What!"
22:09 < kanzure> it's not because I'm angry or not in control or anything, it's a 'reaction mechanism' or 'defense mechanism'
22:10 < fenn> the kids used to drop pencils on the floor above my room, drove me nuts because it was so unpredictable
22:10 < kanzure> preserving the brain state so that I can get stuff done
22:10 < kanzure> yep
22:10 < kanzure> I'd probably be okay with them doing it if they did it in a very specific pattern
22:10 < fenn> meanwhile someone banging drums was no problem at all
22:11 < kanzure> have you ever seen the leg bouncers?
22:11 < kanzure> the hyperactive kids that do leg bouncing?
22:11 < fenn> sewing machine foot?
22:11 < kanzure> no
22:11 < kanzure> wait, yes
22:11 < fenn> i used to do that a lot
22:11 < kanzure> I see that as very much like the repetitions that autistic kids do
22:11 < kanzure> except that this is very specific and repetitive
22:12 < fenn> i would watch a very cute girl in my social studies class wiggle.. mmm
22:12 < kanzure> heh
22:12 < kanzure> there's a girl in my social studies class too that does double legging, very ADD person, she does intense focusing on sodoku, but is otherwise trapped in Cosmo magazine or whatever
22:12 < fenn> she had these sneakers with thick foam soles
22:13 < fenn> somehow it amplified the wiggling resonance
22:13 < fenn> i never do it anymore, now that i'm out of school
22:13 < kanzure> cite reciprocality.org website re: the OCD/ADHD/programmer connections to dopamine tolerance and so on
22:14 < fenn> sure sure
22:14 < fenn> what specific environmental factors can we promote/advocate
22:14 < fenn> is the question
22:14 < kanzure> cite wrongplanet.net perhaps (or #wrongplanet, if you'd like to join me for observation)
22:14 < fenn> eh, too cliquey
22:14 < fenn> and drama
22:14 < kanzure> right
22:15 < kanzure> environmental factors, I am not really sure of
22:15 < fenn> reminds me of self-conscious "punks"
22:15 < fenn> i'm so punk i'm not!
22:16 < kanzure> what worries me is the idea that I have a genetic proclivity to be the way I am, as opposed to all of this being acquired
22:17 < kanzure> on the other hand, at times it seems like I can be more 'autistic' (even though I do not have autism) and other times most clearly not -- giving presentations, shooting the shit with friends, social engineering stuff
22:17 < fenn> i have a genetic proclivity to being human :(
22:17 < kanzure> well, what if my 'infinite motivator drive' that I wrestled and won through philosophical argumentation with myself was in fact just a byproduct of some pre-existing brain stuff going on?
22:17 < kanzure> (okay, wasn't argumentation, but whatever)
22:18 < Aulere> determinism vs. free will?
22:18 < fenn> do you remember what caused you to tackle that?
22:18 < fenn> a specific event in your life
22:18 < kanzure> not being able to get anything done when programming
22:18 < fenn> what were you trying to program?
22:18 < kanzure> games, mostly
22:18 < kanzure> http://allegro.cc/ was where I was hanging out
22:18 < fenn> why were you writing games?
22:18 < kanzure> I have no clue.
22:19 < kanzure> I didn't play that many, in all honesty. I was captivated by the idea of creating big, giant adventure games.
22:19 < fenn> was there a person or group of people you were trying to impress?
22:19 < kanzure> there was a time that I was trying to impress a group of people, yes
22:19 < kanzure> I have some chat logs left over from those days, sort of
22:20 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/chats/chats/ (timestamps are wrong)
22:20 < fenn> and now those people are totally irrelevant, but you're left with the brain imprint
22:20 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/chats/chats/azh321_yepFULL.htm <-- must have been 2003?
22:20 < kanzure> yeah, but these were sort of nasty individuals, a 4chan insult group would be a good way to word it
22:21 < fenn> oh that's a harsh chat log
22:22 < fenn> <insert surfer dude impression here>
22:22 < kanzure> right, quite mean at the time
22:23 < kanzure> I was making various commitments to projects that I couldn't complete at the time, if that's worth anything
22:23 < kanzure> I remember being very angry with 'age-related' status-quos
22:23 < kanzure> anyway, it's hard to say
22:24 < fenn> its a biggie, and very unfair seeing how we keep people in prison so they won't learn anything
22:24 < fenn> so then the prejudices are borne out by reality (although the reality is rigged)
22:25 < kanzure> I was very, very mean. I wonder what I was thinking.
22:25 < fenn> anyway, i have a different story, but just as non-straightforward
22:25 < kanzure> yeah?
22:26  * fenn sips his tea
22:26 < fenn> i fell in love with a girl in high school, she never returned the feeling but never said no either
22:26 < fenn> the result was three years of pain
22:26 < kanzure> yep, know that story
22:26 < kanzure> I recently ripped all of her images from a website though, so I'm done
22:27 < kanzure> took me five years to get that link out of her
22:27 < fenn> so i rebuilt my self as a strong personality, one who doesn't depend on anyone emotionally or technologically. actually i consider it a separate personality
22:27 < fenn> so I was trying to build a giant exoskeleton, as a way of manifesting my emotional 'armor'
22:28 < kanzure> literally?
22:28 < fenn> this led me through engineering and eventually wiki-mongering and programming
22:28 < kanzure> you got into such things late?
22:28 < fenn> yes, literally. i had some nebulous explanations for why such a thing would be useful
22:28 < fenn> i just knew i had to do it
22:28 < kanzure> awesome
22:29 < fenn> so, i have some airmuscles and a welder and metal shop and half-built tesla turbines
22:29 < fenn> somehow space colonization got conflated into this, as a way to get away from all these stupid humans
22:30 < fenn> i always had a fascination with big solid chunks of metal as a child though
22:30 < fenn> mostly because everything you're around is lightweight plastic junk, i guess
22:31 < fenn> i grew up with piles of legos
22:31 < kanzure> same
22:31 < fenn> technics and space (blacktron was my team)
22:32 < kanzure> while I did use computers to some extent when I was younger, they were banned from http://austinwaldorf.org/ from age 6 to 10 when I was attending there, a significant chunk of my development obviously; when I got into the 'real world' (of public education) I started to watch television, got hooked on pokemon, got into the game hacking scene on the internet, and I can still trace my internet usage history back to that.
22:33 < fenn> http://img.lugnet.com/display.cgi?set/new/upload/6876-1-1004641609.jpg
22:33 < kanzure> other things were banned too - computers, television, plastic toys ("they're not natural!"), modern music, etc
22:33 < Aulere> why were they banned?
22:33 < kanzure> Aulere: the Steiner-Waldorf philosophy.
22:33 < Aulere> ah.
22:34 < kanzure> makes little sense
22:34 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_education
22:34 < kanzure> Learning is interdisciplinary, integrates practical, artistic, and intellectual elements,[1] and is coordinated with "natural rhythms of everyday life".[2] The Waldorf approach emphasizes the role of the imagination in learning,[3][4][5] developing thinking that includes a creative as well as an analytic component.[6][7] Studies of the education describe
22:34 < fenn> you really should read 'the diamond age'
22:34 < kanzure>  its overarching goal as providing young people the basis on which to develop into free, moral[8][9] and integrated individuals,[10][11][3] and to help every child fulfill his or her unique destiny
22:35 < fenn> it'll only take 18 hours more or less
22:36 < kanzure> it has never seemed appealing to me
22:36 < kanzure> Neil Stephenson, right?
22:36 < fenn> yeah, just read it, then you'll know
22:37 < kanzure> I found this quote on the net that describes the experience of being at Waldorf:
22:37 < kanzure>  "At other times of the day, we knitted, crocheted, and played simple woodwind instruments en masse. Sometimes we merely gazed about while our teachers spoke. The teachers urged us to imaginatively identify with whatever we studied or saw—to feel the life-force coursing through a tree, 
22:37 < kanzure> or absorb an eagle’s noble spirit, or experience the meaning of a boulder. Information of all kinds was kept from us, not just the ideological sort. The teachers, whose priority was to quietly condition our souls and hearts to receive spiritual influences, 
22:37 < Aulere> wow
22:37 < kanzure> those that possessed holy secrets, they had keys to cosmic truth. -- I developed esoteric yearnings—I was eager for revelation—I longed for things transcendent, for supernal beauty and grandeur. The expectation of these blessings grew in me for years and sustained me. 
22:37 < kanzure> But then, gradually, a reaction set in. It became increasingly pronounced as I progressed through high school. I was pained that the world, and I, fell so far short—always, it seemed, so far short. 
22:37 < kanzure> Dreams of the transcendent remained just that—vague, alluring dreams, perpetually out of reach. Longing for the unobtainable is a prescription for frustration, or desperation. I continued to long—perhaps more than ever—"
22:37 < Aulere> omg. I would never have guessed.
22:38 < Aulere> that you would have gone to such a school.
22:38 < Aulere> How do you feel about your own experience in it?
22:38 < fenn> my dear watson, it is self-evident.
22:38 < kanzure> I was completely clueless. To me, it was fun.
22:38 < Aulere> same?
22:38 < Aulere> ah.
22:39 < fenn> now kanzure is trying to fulfill his teachers' expectations by transcending into a jupiter-brain
22:39 < Aulere> lol
22:39 < Aulere> very interesting.
22:39 < kanzure> that must have been some damn big expectation
22:42 < kanzure> Sometime in 2004 I began to be addicted to http://gamma-ray.com/ as can still be evidenced by http://last.fm/user/kanzure -- it was only recently that I discovered that Gamma Ray, the scifi power metal band, also has some Steiner backgrounds.
22:48 < Aulere> how long have you two (kanzure & fenn) known each other?
22:48 < kanzure> three weeks?
22:48 < Aulere> really?
22:48 < kanzure> yes
22:49 < Aulere> impressive natural communication between you two for so short a time.
22:49 < fenn> he barged into #emc ranting about my website being down
22:49 < Aulere> lol
22:49 < fenn> a squirrel had chewed through my phone line
22:49 < kanzure> pfft
22:49 < fenn> causing erratic dsl
22:49 < Aulere> hehe
22:49 < kanzure> I saw him in a query for Dave Gingery, and was surprised that I had missed him
22:49 < kanzure> however, it turns out that we've both been influenced by Superkuh on more than on occassion
22:49 < Aulere> hehe
22:50 < fenn> you know superkuh's bionic ducky? that's a good analogy for my self-reliant mental configuration
22:51 < kanzure> bionic ducky? I know he has that symbol all over the place, but not its history
22:52 < fenn> also he was into exoskeletons
22:52 < fenn> "monopropellant actuators"
22:53 < kanzure> on his front page he still has a homebrew piezoelectric particle accelerator design
22:54 < fenn> now i cant remember the url
22:54 < kanzure> a few weeks ago I saw him in #biology and asked him what he's been up to re: his TMS projects. He said he stays in bed all day, and promptly quit all of the channels. Yikes. 
22:54 < kanzure> hold on
22:54 < fenn> transonomia or something
22:54 < fenn> who was nervousenergy.net?
22:54 < kanzure> he doesn't pay any more
22:54 < kanzure> nervous energy was him
22:54 < kanzure> http://69.180.166.50/
22:55 < fenn> dang duude get some dyndna :)
22:56 < fenn> dyndns*
23:00 < kanzure> I don't know how to encourage these behaviors in others, or how to maintain them in me, clearly even I go through fluctuations of bout of productivity and so on
23:00 < kanzure> you can see this in the dating of my documents on my site
23:00 < kanzure> but to what extent is this due to school? But on the other hand, shouldn't I still be able to preserve the same functionality even with school?
23:01 < kanzure> it has this way of messing with the mind
23:03 < fenn> i think school is targeted exactly the opposite direction, so no, you wouldnt be able to maintain th same performance under the influence of school
23:03 < fenn> unless you managed to neutralize every method they use
23:03 < fenn> (unlikely)
23:04 < kanzure> I wish my camera was working; I'd show you the pages upon pages of notes that I jot down by hand during the day,
23:04 < kanzure> I have boxes of these pages; it's my way of trying to work through more useful problems rather than succumbing to school
23:05 < kanzure> but I know that everything I write down is lost since I'm never in the right mind to read the text when I get home since I'm tired/exhausted from trying to keep the mental firewalls up ;)
23:05 < kanzure> maybe I'm just being lazy.
23:06 < fenn> dont be so hard on yourself
23:07 < fenn> well lookie here http://69.180.166.50/library/meh/tensegritytripod.jpg
23:08 < kanzure> you'll also see a tranegrity diagram somewhere on my site
23:08 < kanzure> b-fuller got around
23:08 < kanzure> *tensegrity
23:09 < fenn> a transegrity diagram would be a self-supported network of transsexuals?
23:09 < kanzure> dunno
23:09 < fenn> maybe that's just bleed-over from #wrongplanet
23:10 < kanzure> my #wrongplanet-absorption theory: the more you sit in there and read and be 'emotionally connected' to those random-chatters, the more autistic you become
23:10 < kanzure> yep
23:11 < kanzure> note the frequency of messages 
23:12 < kanzure> this must be a tradeoff for density or something
23:12 < Aulere> heh
23:14 < kanzure> it's a giant feedback loop of stimulation expectation
23:14 < fenn> its kinda painful
23:14 < Aulere> interesting
23:15 < kanzure> I can read it and keep up with the flow, but there's little to no content going on
23:15 < kanzure> and within the time that a response is generated, I have better/more ideas, so it's obviously not content
23:17 < fenn> notice the lack of standard no-content chatroom abbreviations
23:17 < fenn> u r y w/e
23:17 < kanzure> what about 'lol'?
23:17 < fenn> especially lol
23:17 < kanzure> I am seeing it, though
23:18 < fenn> just tornado
23:18 < kanzure> Anyway, I can't stand much of that.
23:19 < Aulere> it's rather funny
23:20 < kanzure> maybe it's because their interest is in the chat room itself
23:20 < kanzure> rather than having some other intense interest to focus on
23:21 < Aulere> true
23:22 < kanzure> fenn: re: reciprocality, did I show you the 'attention as the primary scarcity' page?
23:22 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/thinking.html
23:22 < kanzure> http://www.laetusinpraesens.org/musings/hypercom.php attention as the primary scarcity
23:23 < kanzure> http://online.sfsu.edu/~kbach/emotion.html emotion-attention connection and defense mechanisms
23:23 < fenn> secondlife economy is based around attention
23:23 < fenn> and novelty
23:24 < fenn> hyper hyper hyper!
23:24 < kanzure> check the ~kbach page, ignore laetusinpraesens.org unless you want to spend a while parsing that guy
23:25 < kanzure> anyway, nothing too serious there
23:26 < kanzure> there are many people who treat autism as a disorder, whereas I see it as being particularly useful
23:26 < kanzure> but if the beginnings of those studies have to go under the heading of 'philosophical psychopathology', so be it
23:27 < Aulere> how do you see autism as useful?
23:27 < fenn> its the only way to get anything done :)
23:27 < fenn> do you know any computer programmers aulere?
23:28 < Aulere> yes
23:28 < fenn> i'd assume so since you're in #ai
23:28 < fenn> well, ever notice that they never get anything done if you bug them
23:28 < fenn> according to kanzure, autistics have a natural ability to block out distractions
23:29 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome#Restricted_and_repetitive_interests_and_behavior
23:29 < kanzure> "Pursuit of specific and narrow areas of interest is one of the most striking features of AS.[1] Individuals with AS may collect volumes of detailed information on a relatively narrow topic such as dinosaurs or deep fat fryers, without necessarily having genuine understanding of the broader topic"
23:29 < fenn> this lends itself to being constantly in a state of altered consciousness that is useful for problem solving, understanding complex relationships, etc
23:29 < kanzure> However, on the other hand, it's also interesting for *polymathism*, not just restricted interests
23:29 < fenn> is polymath a broad or narrow topic?
23:29 < Aulere> hmm
23:30 < kanzure> fenn: that's the right question
23:30 < fenn> what is the shape of the mathiverse?!
23:30 < kanzure> fenn: you can be a polymath by going to the right feeding holes for in-depth information, but the 'polymaths' that don't really do much recursion aren't really polymaths
23:30 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz <-- no way this guy was not somewhere on the autism spectrum
23:31 < fenn> he had many mathematical conversations on his honeymoon (not with his wife)
23:31 < fenn> hmm!
23:32 < Aulere> I've personally wondered about the brain waves associated with attention
23:32 < kanzure> brain waves?
23:32  * fenn yawns
23:32 < Aulere> gamma, beta, theta combos
23:32 < kanzure> that ranks close to scientology with me
23:33 < Aulere> oh?
23:33 < fenn> it's the only tool neurologists had for a long time, so it became a sort of universal explanation
23:33 < kanzure> true, and it's definitely there, but as a useful way of explaining things?
23:33 < Aulere> studies have shown music increases attention in ADHD via brain wave manipulation
23:34 < kanzure> 'via', really?
23:34 < Aulere> as I can recall, yes.
23:34 < fenn> and trucks deliver packages via the highway
23:34 < Aulere> I'll try to find the study
23:34 < kanzure> what about their engines?
23:34 < fenn> what about the packages?
23:35 < fenn> (not saying the engine isnt important too)
23:35 < fenn> and where are all those damn trucks going anyway?
23:35 < Aulere> so you're saying that the frequency differences are effect and not cause, right?
23:36 < fenn> i'm just saying you're paying attention to the wrong thing
23:36 < kanzure> More importantly, we *know* that there are neurotransmitter circuits and other phenomena going on inside the brain that are worth investigating; the 'frequency theory' seemed useful for some stuff, sure, but how far can you go with that?
23:37 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuropsychopharmacology
23:37 < Aulere> I don't know. As I said, I've just personally wondered about it.
23:37 < fenn> also its like trying to study a computer by watching/manipulating the voltage of the power supply
23:37 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience
23:38 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuropsychology
23:38 < Aulere> lol enough with the links :)
23:38 < kanzure> in fact, it looks like their neurosci articles have improved
23:38 < kanzure> "The methodologies employed by neuroscientists have been enormously expanded, from biochemical and genetic analysis of dynamics of individual nerve cells and their molecular constituents to imaging representations of perceptual and motor tasks in the brain."
23:39 < fenn> fMRI isnt exactly a 'representation'
23:40 < kanzure> isn't image synonymous with representation?
23:45 < fenn> no? is a photograph a representation? i'd say not
23:45 < fenn> a drawing of an object is a representation
23:46 < fenn> a sketch of an fmri session is a representation
23:46 < kanzure> the equations to interpret visual data and then draw, versus the equations that determine fMRI interpretation?
23:46 < kanzure> what difference does it make? they are both transformations on the data, right?
23:46 < kanzure> except one has a solid state definition
23:47 < kanzure> actually, cameras are not solid state 
23:47 < kanzure> but I think fMRI is.
23:48 < fenn> because an fMRI is a transformation of the actual data, whereas a representation is a mathematical model of the data
23:48 < fenn> backpropagation of the neural net
23:48 < kanzure> oh.
23:49 < fenn> you might have a scope trace with all the noise and artifacts, and superimposed over that Real Data is the equation modeling it
23:49 < fenn> image, representation
23:51 < kanzure> http://pyxml.sf.net/ - let's implement an XML format where we have a tag immediately after the xml version and doc-type spec that mentions what the file version is, this is our 'metadata format' for files and programs (and can be extended with further name tags to make it more detailed)
23:51 < kanzure> so I'll read upon DTD and get to work on a mockup of a program that queries a database to ask for a program to process a file or something
23:52 < kanzure> the database to query will be defined by a file in /etc/filedb/something.conf or the like.
23:52 < kanzure> *read up o n
23:52 < kanzure> *up on
23:54 < Aulere> at the risk of continuing to sound stupid, what is the mechanism by which sound waves affect attention?
23:54 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
23:56 < Aulere> nm, I'll ask the neurosci channel.
23:56 < fenn> entrainment
23:56 < fenn> maybe that's a buzzword
23:57 < Aulere> do you think kanzure quit because that was such a stupid question?
23:57 < fenn> do you know what a phase locked loop is?
23:57 < Aulere> no
23:57 < fenn> kanzure quite because he has to wake up to go to prison, probably
23:57 < fenn> (aka public school)
23:57 < Aulere> ah
23:57 < Aulere> I'm not normally so sensitive to others' perceptions, really I'm not ;)
23:58 < Aulere> ok, I'll google it.