--- Day changed Tue Apr 15 2008
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17:44 < kanzure> Hey.
17:47 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/docs/Intense_world_syndrome.pdf
17:52 < Splicer> heybryan
17:52 < kanzure> Hi Splicer. 
17:53 < Splicer> ..yeah, not gonna read that one.. maybe I have ADHD
17:54 < Splicer> (joke)
17:55 < kanzure> *I* am the one with ADHD.
17:56 < Splicer> you have the opposite
17:57 < Splicer> I read skimmed some of the ideonomy papers today
17:57 < kanzure> I have some pretty powerful ADHD, my friend.
17:57 < kanzure> Did you like ideonomy stuff?
17:58 < Splicer> hmm... i liked the introduction.. a lot, extremely well written piece
17:59 < kanzure> Yes. I talked with Gunkel a month ago when David Dalrymple (he came in here a few weeks ago to explain to us the computational complexity classes) pointed him out. I saw that Gunkel might have been in Austin, so I emailed him and asked if I could get him a lunch sometime. He replied back, we talked a little, he's completely done with ideonomy, too intense for his tastes.
18:00 < Splicer> i never really understood how it would be related to math... to me it seemed to be about organizing things, very subjective, like an iq test or something
18:02 < Splicer> i mean, the thing begins with defining what thing goes where, and that's dependant on that one already somehow know it
18:02 < kanzure> Mathematics and organization go together - that's how we have so many mathematical structures, as well as datastructs in our programming libraries.
18:03 < Splicer> yeah, but isn´t the big task finding the right categories and ordering those?
18:04 < Splicer> the philosoper who uses it, ken wilber, he organizes societies according to colors
18:04 < kanzure> The 'right' ones? :)
18:05 < Splicer> safe colors
18:07 < Splicer> i kinda like memetics, organizing is not my kink
18:08 < kanzure> You seem to make arbitrary distinctions where none exist. It's not about organizing things, but rather combinatorics, and to do combinatorics you need to be able to do lists of things; so if you recursively go through the list, then you can assume you have saturated the structs. 
18:08 < kanzure> If you find you missed a piece, you go back and add it. But then you need computers to rebuild the rest, else that's *tons* of manual work. That's what impressed me about Gunkel. I was *sure* that he had overcame the overhead problem.
18:12 < kanzure> fenn: I'd like you to take a look at that PDF.
18:13 < Splicer> i didn´t read that far... but isn´t what you are describing about organizing? and the reason for the importance of organizing.. as oposed to memetics which is about how an idea is tansmitted and how it evolves
18:14 < kanzure> Memetics is more than how the idea is transmitted, it's also about the 'monster' (meme) while inside the brain.
18:15 < Splicer> yeah, that's what intrests me, the autopsy isn´t that interesting
18:15 < Splicer> societies by color: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_Dynamics
18:16 < kanzure> sounds like a weird name to name it
18:16 < kanzure> first few sentences seem to check out
19:01 -!- Insanity3 [n=Anon754@d54C0A1F3.access.telenet.be] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:02 < Insanity3> Hi kanzure sent me here saying there are other people interested in Henry Markram's research
19:12 < fenn> Splicer: the categorization scheme is called an ontology
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19:14 < fenn> so gunkel is over ideonomics, what does he do?
19:14 < fenn> from what i read it seemed to entirely consume his life
19:15 < fenn> Splicer: if you admit that there's an objective reality, then there are questions that can be asked about that reality, and answers to the questions
19:20 < Splicer> yes?
19:20 < fenn> hm. spiral dynamics seems rather muddled and doesnt say a lot
19:21 < Splicer> i think you´re absolutely right
19:22 < Splicer> it's an example to me that the categorisations become subjective
19:22 < fenn> ok
19:23 < kanzure> fenn: it looks like some basic ideas from the first few sentences that I read. 
19:23 < fenn> i think most philosophers are not familiar enough with game theory to point at a particular strategy and say "this is green" or whatever
19:23 < fenn> sure, memes, value systems in moral relativism
19:23 < kanzure> fenn: http://heybryan.org/docs/Intense_world_syndrome.pdf <-- read this.
19:24 < fenn> there was a UN survey on value systems by country, and correlated various value systems with declared happiness
19:24 < fenn> wah
19:26 < fenn> they have autistic rats?
19:26 < Splicer> fenn: So has anyone solved it? if the basedata is subjective, appying math to it won´t make science. 
19:27 < fenn> Splicer: no, i'm saying the value systems are objective, and you can find the mathematics behind them if you study game theory
19:27 < Splicer> it all becomes mussy as you say, like this: http://ideonomy.mit.edu/mapsandlists-set1/pic016.html
19:28 < Splicer> what do you mean by value system?
19:28 < fenn> actually, my brain made that last sentence up
19:28 < fenn> i disclaim all responsibility for it!
19:29 < fenn> value system = vMeme of spiral dynamics
19:29 < Splicer> hehe.. i usually say 'I take it back and claim the opposite'
19:29 < fenn> its basically your philosophy behind life, which memes can flourish in you
19:29 < Splicer> yeah, it's subjetive
19:29 < fenn> but anyway, with ideonomics, there might be multiple ontologies talking about the same objective reality
19:30 < fenn> it can be hard to stick to one ontology sometimes
19:30 < kanzure> right
19:30 < Splicer> i think you´re right
19:30 < fenn> if we had a theory of everything, well, maybe you could use it for everything, but maybe not
19:31  * Splicer is waiting for the singularity
19:31 < Splicer> *tap* *tap' *tap*
19:31 < kanzure> Splicer: I am working as fast as I can. I'll try to go faster.
19:31 < fenn> you have to admit it's a clever map
19:31 < fenn> er, diagram
19:32 < kanzure> "The map is not the territory" - thus emphasis on 'clever'
19:32 < kanzure> and i.e. mapmaking as an art and science
19:32 < kanzure> thus my maps of the internet.
19:33 < Splicer> it's a good saying that "The map is not the territory"
19:33 < Splicer> (except in math)
19:34 < kanzure> Nope, in math you get to study maps, like in topology, set theory, category theory, graph theory, topos, number theory, ...
19:35 < Splicer> i love the concept of memespaces
19:35 < fenn> what is a memespace?
19:35 < Splicer> the collection of memes that make out a piece of territory
19:36 < fenn> are you sure that isnt a meme complex?
19:38 < fenn> from what i gather, memespace is the set of all possible memes
19:38 < Splicer> hmm. according to wikipedia i think yes
19:38 < Splicer> i've never used it to mean that
19:40 < fenn> perhaps you mean something like a local memespace (whatever that might mean)
19:40 < Splicer> wikipedia seems to use both: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memespace
19:42 < Splicer> (n memespace gets twice the hist on google)
19:42 < Splicer> ((hits))
19:43 < fenn> (((zowee!)))
19:43 < Splicer> ((((\m/))))
20:05  * Splicer goes to sleep
20:05 < Splicer> cu
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20:12 < fenn> kanzure: i dont know 20% of the words in that paper, it just looks like a review article to me
20:12 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/intense_world_syndrome.html
20:13 < kanzure> fenn: the hypothesis suggests what we were discussing last night
20:13 < kanzure> that autism is intense information processing
20:13 < kanzure> but this puts those ideas to specific brain structures that have been experimentally confirmed
20:14 < fenn> auditory startle - no effect
20:14 < kanzure> hm
20:14 < kanzure> in the paper that I linked to?
20:15 < fenn> auditory fear generalization - enhanced
20:15 < fenn> i dont know what these tests mean
20:16 < kanzure> they are standards in the experimentalists' community, so it's just a lack of social knowledge here
20:16 < kanzure> I'll go through the list and do a writeup when I get to it
20:16 < kanzure> I have some blog posts to read over from an individual I picked up from #wrongplanet -- it's a good place to find individuals from time to time, but you really just have to get in and out and be done with it
20:19 < fenn> dunno if you've ever read this, but i liked it
20:19 < fenn> http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/autism
20:24 < kanzure> grr, I need more Bayes
20:26 < fenn> http://yudkowsky.net/bayes/bayes.html
20:31 < fenn> he had a nice explanation about an AI in a computer with a monitor and a light sensor..
20:32 < fenn> i cant seem to find it
20:33 < kanzure> heh, I'd rather go to the source of Eliezer's understanding of Bayes
20:33 < kanzure> I'm pretty sure it's Jef. 
20:46 < fenn> can you see things without moving your eyes to look at them?
20:46 < fenn> can you focus on them
20:48 < kanzure> without moving my eyes?
20:48 < kanzure> there's significant loss of detail to the point where I am pretty sure I'm not getting much relevant information except 'nothing is moving there, so you are okay'
20:49 < fenn> i just cant read words
20:49 < kanzure> huh?
20:49 < kanzure> oh
20:50 < fenn> i think my glasses interfere with peripheral vision too, probably why i hate them
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21:33 < kanzure> Aulere: Hey.
21:33 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/intense_world_syndrome.html <-- what I've been working on tonight.
21:34 < kanzure> spawned from http://heybryan.org/docs/Intense_world_syndrome.pdf
21:47 < Aulere> hi kanzure - sorry for the delay
21:50 < Aulere> very interesting
22:24 < kanzure> Aulere: yeah?
22:41 < kanzure> blah, somebody just called me an idiot on http://google.com/virgle - and here I am designing ways for him to become smarter
22:41 < kanzure> why do I bother?
22:41 < kanzure> (joking:))
22:43 < Aulere> hehe
22:43 < Aulere> yeah, I found it very interesting. You've obviously studied the subject to some depth.
22:43 < Aulere> So I learned a bit about it.
22:46 < fenn> what about virgle?
22:49 < kanzure> ?
22:49 < kanzure> to either of you
22:53 < fenn> to each his own
22:53 < fenn> what does 'someone called me an idiot on' mean precisely
22:54 < kanzure> it doesn't mean anything, I am just complaining
22:55 < fenn> what is your stance on virgle?
22:55 < kanzure> "Hey Bryan, I checked out your website AND YOU ARE AN IDIOT." <-- why would that noise come into play?
22:55 < kanzure> my stance is proactionary and one of helpfulness
22:55 < kanzure> http://openvirgle.net/ <-- am participating.
22:55 < fenn> why not work with the mars society?
22:56 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/notes.html
22:56 < kanzure> sure
22:56 < kanzure> and many other organizations
22:57 < fenn> is that where you learnd about oscomak?
22:57 < kanzure> I also work with Artemis, L5, the Moon Society, Interplanetary Ventures, FREDNET, Cringely, etc.
22:57 < kanzure> yes
23:02 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_Institute_of_Pathology <-- this looks delicious
23:23 < fenn> did you ever contact fernhout about skdb?
23:25 < fenn> nm i see you mentioned something, i guess that's all we got right now
23:27 < kanzure> yes, I did, he seems to be in a rut and not caring
23:28 < fenn> the semantic mediawiki thread?
23:28 < fenn> its hard to see your own blind spots :)
23:34 < fenn> ugh fernhout thinks scientific growth is over
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