--- Day changed Wed Apr 23 2008
00:00 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/2008-04-22 <-- Works. 
00:56 < fenn> True is capitalized, no endwhile
01:02 < kanzure> huh
01:02 < kanzure> okay
01:03 < fenn> i have a custom css that blanks out all page coloring, so i'm not exactly bouncing up and down for inline syntax hilighting
01:03 < kanzure> it was more something for me to do :)
01:04 < fenn> i dont really understand this line: yaml.load("!!python/object:__main__.Hero")
01:04 < fenn> what is Hero supposed to be?
01:04 < kanzure> a class
01:04 < fenn> shouldnt that come from a plugin?
01:04 < kanzure> assume that it was defined before the line starting with 'try'
01:04 < kanzure> yes
01:04 < kanzure> but this was from our logs
01:04 < kanzure> also, 
01:04 < kanzure> I don't know how to specify a class otherwise
01:04 < kanzure> as in, what does it need to be?
01:04 < kanzure> !!python/object:huh?
01:05 < kanzure> I mean, it has to be in __main__, right? else it's defined as a python-provided type, right?
01:05 < kanzure> I don't know
01:05 < fenn> no, you just say the name of the class
01:05 < fenn> if its in your namespace it will work
01:05 < kanzure> python has namespaces?
01:05 < fenn> if you imported the class from a module it's module.Class
01:05 < kanzure> huh
01:05 < kanzure> convenient
01:06 < fenn> good manners in python is not to 'pollute' the main namespace with imported modules
01:12 < fenn> gonna have to actually read this yaml spec i think :)
01:13 < kanzure> you didn't read it?
01:13 < kanzure> heh
01:13 < kanzure> ikeljfald;fj;akfjladkjfa
01:13 < kanzure> slacker
01:13  * kanzure goes to sleep (<--- is a slacker too)
01:13 < fenn> i'm slow
01:13 < kanzure> I used to be able to program while in school, on paper, but these days I rely on external libraries to such an extent that if I don't have the specs and a few search engines opened, ehh
01:14 < fenn> programming on paper is not very useful
01:14 < fenn> i mean, once you've got the library figured out the job is 90% done
01:14 < kanzure> oh?
01:14 < kanzure> http://www.multicians.org/andre.html
01:14 < fenn> so, "polymath" doesnt have anything to do with math
01:15 < fenn> it just means, "not stupid" i guess
01:16 < kanzure> you may be interested in http://eugen.leitl.org/polymath.mbox
01:16 < kanzure> an old mailing list
01:16 < kanzure> Carl Feynman used to post, among others
01:17 < fenn> of course the last 10% takes another 90% of effort
01:18 < fenn> pareto principle
01:19 < fenn> oh, here we go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninety-ninety_rule
01:22 < fenn> usenet should have had a moderation system like slashdot
01:22 < kanzure> 'Members are: me, Robin, James Rogers, Tim May, Peter McCluskey, DDFR,
01:22 < kanzure> Greg Burch, Damien B., Perry, Hal, Richard Schroeppel, Ted Kaehler,
01:22 < kanzure> Eugene Leitl, Carl F., Amara, Romana, Anders, Curt Adams, and Ralph
01:22 < kanzure> Merkle.  (plus Brin.)'
01:22 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-110-236.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap
01:22 < kanzure> David Brin, Carl Feynman, Eugene Leitl, Damien Sullivan, Anders Sandberg, all on the same list?
01:22 < kanzure> That's a deal.
01:24  * kanzure needs sleep
01:24 < fenn> gnite
01:24 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."]
04:54 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-110-236.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
09:23 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-110-236.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap
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17:46 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:30 -!- Splicer [n=p@h126n3c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:32 < Splicer> kanzure: You are setting up a videocast?
18:46 < kanzure> Splicer: Are you John Fields?
18:47 < Splicer> no
18:47 < Splicer> got a webcam?
18:48 < kanzure> Not yet, but that's cheap.
18:48 < kanzure> Yes, I'm going to be doing some videos, it's something that I have been putting off. I can do much more in less time via vid.
18:48 < Splicer> you´re becoming one of my heroes
18:49 < Splicer> who is John Fields?
18:49 < kanzure> He emailed me about his podcast for biohacking, so I mentioned my vid casting ideas, and told him I'd be willing to host the podcast.
18:49 < Splicer> .. cool
18:50 < Splicer> i'm the guy on the whois record of my site
18:51 < kanzure> I haven't bothered to check.
18:52 < kanzure> Sometimes it's better to *not* know who you are, so that way you have some leeway.
18:52 < Splicer> thus Splicer
18:52 < kanzure> Hm.
18:52 < kanzure> http://www.med.wayne.edu/news_media/streamingmedia/curriculum/GradPrograms/PYC_7010-IBS_7050/index.asp 
18:53 < kanzure> Molecular neuropsychopharmacology vids
18:53 < Splicer> fuck.. they are vids... i didn´t see
18:55 < Splicer> thank you ;)
18:55 < Splicer> i was listening to the berkley genetics podcasts in the background
19:08 < kanzure> Superkuh: http://linux.die.net/man/1/mmsrip -- Opera -> select all links -> copy -> vim -> replace all beginnings of the lines with wget (or do a quick awk script?) -> execute this script -> extract all MMS:// URIs -> use mmsrip. Source package: http://werewolf.freshrpms.net/rpm/mmsrip/
19:08 < kanzure> oops, I was telling him that in #biology
19:21 < Splicer> I added the neurpsychopharmacology vids to biopunk with a nudge to you
19:21 < Splicer> http://www.biopunk.org/post63.html#p63
19:22 < kanzure> Hold on. I'll be writing a script to help rip the vids.
19:22 < Splicer> ;)
19:24 < Splicer> I think the link from the site still has to be to their streamed version though.
19:26 < kanzure> Sure, but.
19:27 < Splicer> yeah.. I know
19:27 < kanzure> I am ripping them to my 500 GB data server. 
19:27 < Splicer> can I ask you something... do you remember everything you read?
19:28 < kanzure> That's my own personal secret.
19:28 < Splicer> hehe
19:28 < kanzure> Splicer: Heh, as I wrote that I realized I know why your name is not John.
19:29 < Splicer> why is that?
19:29 < kanzure> I was distracted when I asked the question. Sorry 'bout that.
19:30 < Splicer> ah.. I signed some mail whit my name i think
19:30 < kanzure> And the jabber handle.
19:31 < Splicer> that's IM right?
19:31 < Splicer> yeah, sorry
19:32 < Splicer> i really enjoy lectures on video... they are one of the few things that are better on video than irl
19:37 < kanzure> yes
19:43 < kanzure> The server is a piece of crap. It doesn't even have a recent libc.
19:45 < Splicer> for #biology?
19:47 < Splicer> time to sleep
19:47 < Splicer> cu
19:48 -!- Splicer [n=p@h126n3c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit []
19:48 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/docs/mol-neuropsychopharm.txt
21:07 -!- Aulere [n=dragon_d@131.229.176.252] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:10 < kanzure> Hi Aulere.
21:11 < kanzure> fenn: Check the three-forwarded emails I sent to hplusroadmap. They describe where I'm at tonight - run levels, and then how to get agx-get plugins to interface with the user for giving them options, without having to enforce too much rigidity in the future possibilities of skdb metadata files.
21:13 < Aulere> hi kanzure
21:13 < kanzure> What's up?
21:13 < Aulere> writing a research papaer
21:13 < Aulere> er paper
21:13 < kanzure> heh :)
21:13 < kanzure> On what?
21:14 < Aulere> the neuroactivational differences between regular and irregular verb tenses
21:14 < Aulere> one study is using MEG
21:14 < Aulere> and I had the random thought, spurred by previous discussion here,
21:15 < Aulere> hmm, if MEG were in theory used on computers, would it be able to tell what each computer chip did?
21:15 < Aulere> and each connection and whatnot.
21:15 < Aulere> (so I'm not a hardware engineer ;-) )
21:15 < Aulere> whadda you think?
21:22 < kanzure> Sorry, was writing an email to hplusroadmap.
21:23 < kanzure> Aulere: First, if MEG can go down to the resolution of nanometers and so on for the resolution of the circuits that computers are using, that's a big step. Second, you would be going about it all wrong, because you could see what's happening to the signals and so on, but not the abstract design of the processor ... you see?
21:23 < Aulere> Yes, that's what I was thinking too, which makes me wonder at the validity of using the method at all
21:24 < Aulere> for the brain.
21:24 < kanzure> YES!
21:24 < kanzure> but it's actually still useful
21:24 < kanzure> there's a pretty good chance that if some general region is activated, heh
21:24 < kanzure> in a computer circuit it still works the same way - wouldn't you be surprised if a chip programmed to do scientific calculations suddenly activated the sound card? ;)
21:25 < kanzure> Same way with the human brain thanks to functional specificity.
21:25 < Aulere> heh 
21:25 < kanzure> But this doesn't mean mind reading. ;) Far from it.
21:26 < Aulere> yeah.
21:26 < kanzure> To be able to get the design of the processor from MEG readings, you would have to record the processor going through *ALL* possible states and then correlate everything into some very large logic matrix. Since the chips these days are 64 bit, that means you have at least 2^64 possible inputs. That's physically impossible to reverse engineer.
21:26 < kanzure> (luckily we can visually analyze the gates with microscopes, instead of having to rely on the electrical signal data ... phew)
21:27 < Aulere> yes, and not just the design, but the function too.
21:28 < kanzure> The function is known via society - i.e., people telling us how to program it, whether by them writing books or physically hitting us over the head when we make a typo re: their instruction set architecture (ISA). :)
21:28 < Aulere> lol
21:29 < Aulere> researchers are trying to reverse-engineer the function of the brain using MEG
21:29 < kanzure> 100 billion neurons with over a few trillion connections, not to mention the routes possible between all of these connections. Yeah, right. hehe
21:30 < kanzure> This is where self-replicating machines would come in, for example
21:30 < Aulere> heh
21:30 < kanzure> You could either do an exponential growth program where you try out possible experiments or something, or you could do exponential growth and try to bruteforce engineer 'intelligence'/brain from the ground up, but both of these are suspect and we *must* significantly constrain possibility space, especially in the case of wetware brain experiments.
21:31 < kanzure> Plus, Godel would argue that no brain can understand itself. But the neuroscientists should understand this already.
21:31 < Aulere> Yes, good ole Godel...
21:31 < kanzure> http://www.miskatonic.org/godel.html
21:31 < Aulere> So the study is specifically involving spatiotemporal brain mapping the magnetic changes on the order of ms
21:32 < kanzure> With respect to what ?
21:32 < Aulere> ?
21:33 < kanzure> Maybe I am misunderstanding.
21:33 < kanzure> Spatiotemporal means "xyz + time" dimensional components. Unless you mean there's a region of the brain for spatiotemporal information processing?
21:33 < kanzure> and that they are studying this region?
21:34 < Aulere> xyz + time
21:34 < kanzure> They are doing this over the whole brain ?
21:35 < Aulere> pretty much - following the cortical stream of activation from the occipital lobe onward after viewing verbs.
21:35 < Aulere> well, after viewing and then deciding the past tense.
21:35 < kanzure> That would be even more interesting once we get the Allen Institute to complete the human brain atlas re: gene expression throughout the brain. Then we can target particular receptors with very, very specific drugs.
21:36 < Aulere> interesting. 
21:36 < kanzure> the Allen Institute has done such for the mouse, already
21:36 < kanzure> http://brain-map.org/ I think
21:36 < Aulere> the current application is to validate or invalidate connectionist models
21:36 < kanzure> 'The Anatomic Gene Expression Atlas (AGEA) is a data-driven, interactive three-dimensional atlas of the adult mouse brain based on Allen Brain Atlas ISH gene expression images. AGEA characterizes the organization of the mouse brain as derived exclusively from gene expression data without reference to classical neuroanatomy. AGEA, which is based on approximately 4,000 coronal gene sets, allows anatomic specification and browsing ba
21:37 < Aulere> interesting
21:39 < Aulere> unfortunately as of yet, mice are non-verbal. 
21:39 < Aulere> :)
21:39 < kanzure> Douglas Adams would disagree.
21:39 < Aulere> heh
21:39 < kanzure> http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Mice
21:40 < kanzure> Mice are merely the protrusion into our dimension of hyper-intelligent pan-dimension beings who, unbeknownst to the human race, are the most intelligent species on the planet Earth. They spent a lot of their time in laboratories running complex experiments on man.
21:40 < kanzure> At the outset, they were so fed up with the constant bickering about the meaning of life which used to interrupt their favourite game of Brockian Ultra Cricket, that they decided to sit down and solve their problems once and for all.
21:40 < kanzure> They were the creators of Deep Thought, a stupendous super computer the size of a small city, to tell them the Answer to Life, The Universe and Everything. When seven and a half million years later it was realised they didn't know they question to the answer they'd been given, a second computer, of such infinite and subtle complexity that life itself would form part of it's operational matrix, was created to work out the Ultimate 
21:40 < Aulere> oh yes
21:40 < Aulere> answer 
21:40 < Aulere> yes, 42
21:41 < Aulere> (that first yes was to the former paragraph, the last one to the latter)
21:48 < Aulere> I lost my Adams virginity in an elevator shaft in Indiana with about 8 other friends
21:48 < Aulere> We would stay up after midnight taking turns reading ;-)
21:48 < kanzure> Were you stuck?
21:48 < Aulere> nah
21:48 < Aulere> It was an elevator shaft, but no elevator was ever put in it.
21:49 < kanzure> Usually losing your virginity and shaft don't have an elevator in common with the two, but I digress.
21:49 < Aulere> LOL
21:50 < Aulere> Oh yes, so literal, I forgot
21:50 < kanzure> nah, just joking :)
21:50 < Aulere> :)
21:50 < kanzure> it's really just my way of wasting time and not making some rather important design decisions for agx-get
21:51 < kanzure> or not. dunno. fenn, you around?
21:52 < Aulere> well, I'd best get back to my paper. there are several other studies to incorporate.
22:37 < kanzure> HTTP archives are back up and running. :-)
22:37 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/pipermail/hplusroadmap/2008-April/thread.html
22:37 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/pipermail/hplusroadmap/
23:15 < kanzure> problem:
23:16 < kanzure> user interface can be updated via downloading new plugins which contain new classes and new methods for dealing
23:16 < kanzure> but
23:16 < kanzure> these plugins are ran when 
23:16 < kanzure> ah, only when there's actually that datatype
23:16 < kanzure> therefore there's no conflicts
23:16  * kanzure is stupid
23:18 < kanzure> didn't I know this last night?
23:19 < kanzure> Now what? 
23:19 < kanzure> agx-get should be able to fetch an updated package of all metadata files
23:19 < kanzure> then it should be able to search through them via tagging or something
23:19 < kanzure> actually, search is not necessary per-se - definitely not an original feature (but tagging would be great to implement right off, of course)
23:19 < kanzure> anyway, it should have an install function
23:20 < kanzure> which would grab the repository and get all of the data - 
23:20 < kanzure> or not all of it, really, just the parts that the user specifies either through the cli parameters or through user input with agx-get asking the user
23:20 < kanzure> so any parameter that agx-get does not natively understand should be assumed to be understood by the program that parses the (skdb-file)'s metadata file.
23:21 < kanzure> anything that is not understood by agx-get would be passed as a parameter to that program,
23:21 < kanzure> and that program will have some internal logic to deal with it
23:21 < kanzure> but the output of that program that is devoted to interpreting that type of metadata file?
23:21 < kanzure> the output shouldn't be simple print statements
23:21 < kanzure> it should be filtered back through agx-get, yes?
23:21 < kanzure> this way agx-get can be updated to different versions like a cli, a gui, whatever
23:22 < kanzure> I was originally thinking of there being a limited number of types of possible interactions with the user
23:23 < kanzure> I think there would *have* to be if agx-get is supposed to be the layer in between the specific program interpreting the metadata file and the user ...
23:23 < kanzure> so I think HTML forms might be a good example spec to work off of
23:23 < kanzure> there has to be input boxes, select boxes, radio buttons (choose from a variety of options, perhaps a few simultaneously), large textboxes, input methods where you can open up a new shell or a new instance of vim or your other favorite text editor, ...
23:24 < kanzure> right?
23:24 < kanzure> and then cli v. gui implementation can be left up to agx-get
23:27 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adapter_pattern
23:47 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facade_pattern
23:56 < fenn> i didnt get any email - am i on the mailing list?
23:58 < kanzure> oh
23:58 < kanzure> http://biohack.sf.net/ is the signup form
23:59 < kanzure> ignore lots of what I said tonight, there are a few ideas that I just stumbled upon in the background here
23:59 < kanzure> need to code an interface layer for the plugins to do their thing, so I'm thinking that there are two options: (these plugins are for agx-get, btw, for interpreting the yaml when agx-get doesn't have the type on hand)
23:59 < kanzure> 1) yaml to be sent to specify what sort of user io has to be filled in
23:59 < kanzure> 2) a generalized gui/cli interface layer