--- Day changed Tue May 13 2008
00:00 < kanzure> http://www.bertsimons.nl/zenphoto/paperworks/
00:00 < kanzure> he has heads mounted on his wall :)
00:00 < kanzure> hehe
00:08 < fenn> think of the anime possibilities :\
00:09 < kanzure> http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aq.cgi wired sucks
00:10 < kanzure> http://origami.kvi.nl/programs/oridraw/ oridraw software ? doesn't look like a compiler
00:10 < kanzure> '
00:10 < kanzure> ORIDRAW, ORITOPS and ORITOAIL are programs designed to make Origami diagrams.
00:10 < kanzure> They are not WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get) programs: both programs
00:10 < kanzure> read commands from a file and converts them to diagrams.'
00:11 < ybit> okay, i lied. i had to edit a few more things :)
00:11 < ybit> but NOW i'm through
00:12 < kanzure> ybit: haha
00:13 < fenn> there was an interactive java app origami cad program.. site was in japanese
00:14 < fenn> oripa
00:14 < kanzure> I'd like to track down bert's software.
00:14 < fenn> http://mitani.cs.tsukuba.ac.jp/pukiwiki-oripa/index.php?ORIPA%3B%20Origami%20Pattern%20Editor
00:14 < fenn> i actually got it to work
00:17 < ybit> ugh, i give up
00:17 < kanzure> the input is crease pattern documents?
00:17 < ybit> i keep finding new things to edit :P
00:17 < kanzure> ybit: with what?
00:17 < kanzure> there's quite a lot of content, yes
00:17 < fenn> watch the demo movie
00:18 < ybit> on second thought, not so sure if i like the
element
00:21 < ybit> sorry for not having much to say tonight, i didn't get much sleep this previous morning
00:24 * ybit goes to bed
00:24 < ybit> gn
00:25 < kanzure> 'night
00:27 < kanzure> Keith Henson sent me a nasty email :-/
00:29 < kanzure> http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-May/043411.html
00:31 < kanzure> guess he is just asking for numbers
00:33 < fenn> i'd have to agree with everything he says in that email
00:33 < kanzure> yes, but the whole "Look, I founded the L5" bullshit
00:33 < kanzure> it's certainly quite a feat
00:33 < kanzure> but.
00:34 < fenn> it's not argument from authority if you're the authority :)
00:34 < kanzure> ah
00:36 < fenn> interesting biography
00:36 < kanzure> he's a good friend of Tony, coincidentially
00:36 < kanzure> ah, didn't know his Xanadu connections
00:37 < kanzure> hm, and an ESR connection
00:37 < fenn> The jury verdict of the trial resulted in Henson being convicted of one of the three charges: "interfering with a religion." This misdemeanor charge carried a prison term of six months.
00:37 < fenn> holy WTF batman
00:38 < kanzure> yes, he recently got released
00:38 < kanzure> and so his emails started appearing back on the mailing lists
00:38 < kanzure> with "advisory from my lawyers to never, ever ever mention you know what"
00:55 < kanzure> fenn: what's the best way for me to figure out what 'real' CAD is like
00:55 < fenn> download alibre free edition
00:55 < fenn> dont you just love the name
00:56 < fenn> http://www.alibre.com/xpress/
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02:33 < Vedestin_> hey, i've had a thought, someone can someone tell me how ridiculous it is
02:38 < Vedestin_> anyway, so i was wondering if thought patterns, memories, knowledge etc are reinforced in the brain through strengthening of bonds between neurons (correct this if it's wrong) wouldn't there possibly be some substance which could aid this process
02:38 < Vedestin_> my thinking is like how anabolic steroids aid muscle development, this nootropic steroid could aid brain development
02:38 < Vedestin_> and facilitate learning
02:39 < Vedestin_> let me know when you guys get back
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07:40 < kanzure> fenn:
07:40 < kanzure> http://constructors.wikidot.com/
07:40 < kanzure> http://groups.google.co.uk/group/vncprize
07:40 < kanzure> this is Douglas Reay, the guy who's sponsoring the von Neumann Constructor Prize
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10:12 < Vedestin> bryan is a high school student?
10:15 < fenn> yup
10:20 < Vedestin> ahh ok
10:20 < Vedestin> final year?
10:21 < Vedestin> that explains the passionate idealism
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11:34 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: http://heybryan.org/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ http://heybryan.org/exp.html | krebs is now servicing the channel. try !help
11:34 -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Tue Apr 29 18:54:31 2008]
11:34 [Users #hplusroadmap]
11:34 [ drazak] [ fenn_] [ Phreedom] [ ybit]
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11:34 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008
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18:14 < kanzure> fenn: http://sourceforge.net/projects/piquant/ "A Python package extending NumPy and SciPy to allow specification of numbers and arrays with physical units."
19:13 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_art
20:36 < kanzure> fenn: Why does talking with people who don't understand neuroscience (like the ones who want to describe circuits via anthrophomorphization ('awards')) - make me hurt? I feel an actual pain when talking with them. Like I'm ramming my head against a brick wall. Why?
20:55 < fenn> because typically you enjoy communicating with people and you're being blocked?
20:56 < fenn> how to distinguish process art from performance art?
20:56 < fenn> why do people try so hard to be cool?
20:56 < kanzure> fenn: performance art seems to be only realtime, usually involving human actors
20:58 < fenn> today i was playing with cad.py
20:58 < fenn> and another underwhelming cba masters thesis
20:59 < fenn> solar powered tesla turbines, great idea, but didnt exactly inspire me on the fabrication side of things
21:00 < kanzure> I wonder if they are retarded or very good at hiding things
21:00 < kanzure> but why would they hide stuff
21:00 < fenn> i notice they use a different license on software than "the MIT license"
21:01 < fenn> i think they spend more effort connecting with other scientists and the media than direct communication via website
21:02 < fenn> i've found a bunch of neat stuff though when google stumbles upon their internal wiki/blog
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21:03 < fenn> academics are funny, its like they aren't trying to be mean or selfish, they're just clueless
21:03 < fenn> does piquant have any real documentation?
21:04 < kanzure> Not that I can see.
21:04 < kanzure> fenn: Isn't it their job to not be clueless?
21:05 < Vedestin> no
21:05 < Vedestin> their job is to publish papers
21:05 < fenn> unfortunately, vedestin is right
21:05 < fenn> "bibliometry" is like money in academia
21:05 < fenn> the system is totally fucked, but it's self perpetuating and nobody can do anything about it
21:06 < Vedestin> 'publish or perish' is a term often bandied around
21:06 < fenn> it's a truism, but it doesnt reflect the reality of the flawed system we have
21:07 < fenn> things are even worse in japan and china
21:07 < fenn> its some kind of inflationary effect
21:07 < fenn> believe it or not, scientific papers used to be written in plain english
21:07 < fenn> now, you have to write in science-ese so you can pass off your crap research as something worth publishing
21:08 < Phreedom> fenn: still there's a ton of useful stuff published
21:08 < Phreedom> sometimes if the paper is not useful to you, it's really hard to understand why it is useful
21:08 < kanzure> fenn: See the last quote here: http://heybryan.org/2008-05-13_hyperfocusing.html#sus . Quite interesting.
21:08 < Phreedom> of course load of crap are still here
21:09 < Phreedom> *loads
21:09 < kanzure> Phreedom: I agree. You can get to a point where you truly know if it's bullshit or not.
21:09 < kanzure> But you might also be stealing opportunities from yourself, so you have to be careful when glancing over papers.
21:10 < fenn> i just think that if people concentrated more on doing something worth doing, less on publishing papers, they might actually make a difference
21:10 < kanzure> fenn: Those cholinogeric extensions were mentioned in http://heybryan.org/intense_world_syndrome.html too, so those guys are on to something interesting.
21:10 < kanzure> cholinergic (neuron) projections, I mean.
21:11 < fenn> i just see a lot of jargon that i dont know
21:11 < fenn> sorry i'm not interested in neuroscience
21:11 < Phreedom> you don't have to. have your revenge by making up more words they don't know ;)
21:12 < fenn> Phreedom: i'll just squash them under the boots of my giant robot armor
21:12 < fenn> rawr
21:13 < fenn> kanzure: what are you trying to say about hyperfocusing.html#sus
21:14 < kanzure> fenn: The jargon basically says that (1) the cortices may be mapping goals back into the forebrain regions so that you have 'attentional demands' on your own information, and (2) there have been physical experiments that can modulate attention via acetycholine, NMDA, other molecules like that, extending into the regions that Markram has been studying and simulating.
21:14 < kanzure> It's just my page with some notes on attention. I want to hack my attentional circuits somehow, so I figured I'd do a recursion through the literature tonight (to some extent).
21:15 < kanzure> re: cad.py, did you try unfold.py and http://www.czestmyr.wz.cz/progs/B-Paperizer_04.py ?
21:16 < fenn> no, not yet
21:17 < fenn> i can never remember blender interface keys/gestures
21:19 < kanzure> Who are the guys that do remember it anyway? How much time are they spending on that learning curve ?
21:19 < kanzure> I remember back in 03 when I was playing with 3DS Max and Maya for various reasons ... I could do some functions, but even with my excessive amount of free time (i.e., all day and all night), I never got that far.
21:23 < Vedestin> don't you sleep?
21:25 < kanzure> yeah
21:25 < Vedestin> oh ok
21:25 < Vedestin> how come your school schedule is so light?
21:25 < kanzure> http://www.neuroinf.org/pipermail/comp-neuro/2008-May/000816.html position at Boulder in comp-neurosci ... O'Reilly is a familiar name (turns out it was Superkuh's interest)
21:26 < kanzure> Vedestin: My school schedule is intense - second-year calculus, second-year physics, literature (lots of reading), psych (lots of reading), and then macroeconomics, art, fitness.
21:27 < Vedestin> second year as in second year of a degree
21:27 < Vedestin> or is that an american thing?
21:28 < kanzure> Last year it was fucking intense: second-year bio, second-year physics (yes), anatomy/physiology, American literature, U.S. History, U.S. Government, first-year calculus, speech, and an SAT/ACT review class with the head of the literature department + head of the sci department. :)
21:28 < kanzure> No, it's high school.
21:28 < kanzure> year 12 before university/college
21:28 < fenn> kanzure: do you happen to know where unfold.py is available?
21:28 < kanzure> fenn: IIRC, the blog post said it comes with Blender 2.4.4+
21:29 < kanzure> in the extensions or plugins dir, however blender doesi t.
21:29 < kanzure> *it
21:29 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/3D_models
21:29 < kanzure> specifically: http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=101194
21:29 < fenn> locate and google dont find it
21:29 < kanzure> 'lender 2.44 comes with a script called Unfold. It can easily turn mesh into a flat net, without deforming any faces. What is it good for?'
21:29 < Vedestin> so whats involved in second year calculus
21:30 < kanzure> 'It will help to open one Script window before you start. Unfold is in Scripts > Mesh > Unfold. Then, for all objects one by one, select them, click Unfold and click UV to save the layout (why isnt't this automatical?).'
21:30 < fenn> blah
21:30 < fenn> /usr/share/blender/scripts/blender/mesh_unfolder.py
21:31 < kanzure> Vedestin: http://heybryan.org/school/Calculus/index2.html trigonometric substitution, sequences and series, polynomial approximations, and *supposedly* introductions to partial differentiable equations, separable differential equations, etc.
21:32 < Vedestin> oh i see, that's pretty good for a high school course
21:33 < kanzure> You'd think ... but the teacher is ideologically opposed to being able to talk about the methodology and process. :-/
21:33 < kanzure> Re: O'Reilly. http://psych-www.colorado.edu/~oreilly/
21:33 < fenn> hmm. the monkey is too complex so instead of making a flat unfold it unfolds in 3d
21:34 < kanzure> wtf
21:34 < kanzure> fenn: try installing http://www.czestmyr.wz.cz/progs/B-Paperizer_04.py in the plugin dir instead
21:34 < Vedestin> so...what do they do?
21:34 < Vedestin> they show you graphs and talk about the theory of calculus
21:37 < Vedestin> i've got this course this semester, http://webapps.newcastle.edu.au/handbook/index.cfm?event=handbookResults&strm=4885%2C4840%2C4880%2C4815%2C4825%2C4855%2C4800&subject_area=MATH&catalog_id=1110&template=0&timetable=&term_year=2008&course_level=
21:37 < kanzure> Not so much. It's mostly just example problems of short snippits of "theorems" that aren't given rigorous proofs or discussions.
21:37 < Vedestin> then http://webapps.newcastle.edu.au/handbook/index.cfm?event=handbookResults&strm=4885%2C4840%2C4880%2C4815%2C4825%2C4855%2C4800&subject_area=MATH&catalog_id=1120&template=0&timetable=&term_year=2008&course_level=
21:37 < kanzure> I hold that it should be completely possible to compress an entire course into 30 minutes if you know what you're talking about, even at the potential cost of a lack of understanding in the students. And it's only 30 minutes ...
21:37 < kanzure> instead of taking 45 min for 4 problems
21:37 < Vedestin> an entire course?
21:38 < Vedestin> 45 minutes for four problems is fairly long...
21:39 < Vedestin> you'll enjoy university calculus
21:39 < fenn> paperizer only seems to want to make a single triangle
21:39 < fenn> unfold works how i'd expect with a sphere
21:39 < fenn> it provides a number of different ways to unfold too
21:39 < kanzure> fenn: what was wrong with your monkey, then?
21:39 < fenn> well, its not always possible to unfold into a flat plane without overlapping
21:40 < fenn> pepakura gets around that by chopping the unfolded 2d projection into pieces, and then moving the pieces around
21:40 < fenn> something about convexity i think
21:41 < fenn> but paperizer just looks broken
21:44 < kanzure> so we just need to make unfold do some chopping?
21:44 < fenn> unfold almost gets it right.. one would expect a cone to unfold into a circle and a semicircle, but it splits the circle into two pieces
21:44 < kanzure> or do we not care this much ?
21:44 < fenn> eh i dont really care that much
21:44 < kanzure> seems like a job for some topology ??
21:45 < kanzure> fenn: is it still a suitable demonstration of the system?
21:45 < kanzure> or do we want to go get Bert/Bret/Brent Simons to show us what software he wrote?
21:48 < fenn> some automatic tab numbering would be a lot more convincing
21:53 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/Cone.png
21:54 < fenn> that wasn't terribly automated, but i guess one could store all the trial/error i just did in a script somehow
21:58 < fenn> there must be some way to automatically identify convex parts of a mesh and chop them off to unfold separately
21:59 < fenn> oh good "Unfolder saves its nets in SVG format with added metadata describing the relationships between the polygons in the net,"
22:00 < fenn> looks something like this
22:00 < kanzure> I can't parse that.
22:00 < kanzure> what does nets:da versus nets:parent mean, for example?
22:00 < kanzure> ofPoly and toPoly might make sense
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22:07 < kanzure> wait
22:07 < kanzure> it's SVG?
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22:12 < fenn> i think da is the angle between faces, its a 32 sided cone
22:15 < kanzure> convexity could be established by doing cross-sections in the rendering system and just breaking off the connections
22:15 < kanzure> and then taking the two separate objects and dealing with them separately
22:15 < fenn> it sure has an annoying way of making dashed lines
22:15 < fenn> individual line segments
22:17 < fenn> oh, no, nevermind
22:19 < fenn> starts numbering poly's at 100 for some reason
22:20 < fenn> i gotta say it's pretty cool to move something from blender into inkscape
22:40 < drazak> blender is pretty nice sometimes
23:14 < Phreedom> sometimes? I'd say usually ;)
23:26 < kanzure> I recently (past 2 mo?) discovered blender's python support
23:26 < kanzure> so that was nice
23:38 < fenn> it works; i made a 25-hedron: http://fennetic.net/pub/camera/DCP_0804.JPG
23:39 < fenn> no tabs, just tape
23:41 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/25-hedron.png
23:42 < kanzure> wtf, that's tape?
23:42 < fenn> its paper, cut out, folded, and taped to itself
23:43 < kanzure> you have neat taping abilities, then
23:43 < fenn> actually it was very easy
23:44 < kanzure> http://fennetic.net/pub/camera/DCP_0801.JPG are these yours?
23:45 < fenn> ugh not anymore
23:45 < fenn> well, they were never really mine, it was just assumed they were because i'm the computer nerd right?
23:45 < kanzure> so they just ended up around ?
23:46 < fenn> my roomate took them to his "warehouse" and presumably they're sitting there doing nothing
23:46 < fenn> they used to be on some shelves in the basement and scattered about
23:47 < fenn> then some friends wanted to use a silk-screen machine in the basement so some serious shuffling of crap occurred
23:47 < fenn> to make space for the machine
23:47 < fenn> (they havent used it once)
23:49 < Vedestin> they were going to print t shirts?
23:50 < Vedestin> i think i should switch in to biomedical science
23:51 < kanzure> What are you in?
23:52 < Vedestin> science with a chemistry major
23:53 < Vedestin> just first year
23:57 < kanzure> quick, how do I find cheap flights on the net
23:58 < Vedestin> i use flightcentre
23:58 < Vedestin> but that's for ones leaving australia
23:59 < Vedestin> look for student deals