--- Day changed Thu May 15 2008
00:01 < fenn> i said that because he had a vi cheat sheet on his home page
00:02 < fenn> and you can do stuff with vi like.. not put any line wraps into your email
00:05 < kanzure> heh
00:05 < kanzure> I'm sure they have a key-press to fix that
00:05 < fenn> :set wrap
00:13 < ybit> yikes, didn't see all the responses before posting a response
00:17 < kanzure> haha :)
00:18 < kanzure> ybit: where?
00:18 < kanzure> http://mailman.mit.edu/pipermail/oww-discuss/2008-May/thread.html#427
00:57 < ybit> err... i think i replied directly to him
00:57 < ybit> kanzure, you have gmail
00:58 < kanzure> hm
00:58 < ybit> *doesn't participate much in email discussions*
00:58 < ybit> but um.. i guess i just need to put the mailist address in the to: field
00:58 < ybit> gmail responded directly to him
00:59 < kanzure> hehe
00:59 < kanzure> yes
00:59 < kanzure> ybit: you also need to sign up to the mailing list, probably
00:59 < kanzure> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/oww-discuss
01:01 < ybit> alright sent
01:02 < ybit> i've already signed up which is how i knew russell responded.. i thought he was spam though until i got a response from him just now telling me that i sent the email directly to him instead of to the mailing list
01:04 < kanzure> ah, I see it.
01:05 < ybit> it just seems odd that he would have those statements on OPEN|WETware.org. Though openwetware is mostly used by university students and professors, it's associated with Biobricks which advocates free biological parts. And then hist statement concerning businesses not interested in open and wet is bull. Codon Devices is betting on the biobrick parts
01:05 < ybit> *being open 
01:06 < ybit> i didn't want to hit him too hard, it's not my style
01:06 < ybit> we all make mistakes sometimes
01:06 < ybit> for me, it's often :)
01:09 < kanzure> Russell replied onlist
01:12 < ybit> i see you've already handled it :)
01:13 < ybit> *shudders at his response*
01:13 < kanzure> I wonder what Russell is thinking.
01:14 < kanzure> g'night
01:15 < ybit> gn kanzure
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17:51 < fenn> modular open-source personal gadget: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVC53pO08oo
17:55 < kanzure> uhh, "if I have no app that tells it to launch rocket at head, well."
17:56 < kanzure> rather interesting example..
17:56 < kanzure> now, it talks about "all of the community's apps that correspond with your components"
17:56 < kanzure> what does this mean, debian repository setup, or what?
18:00 < fenn> mumble mumble java sdk
18:00 < kanzure> for their platform?
18:00 < kanzure> I dunno if I like the idea of a java sdk/repo combo
18:01 < kanzure> I dislike java in general, but Paul was suggesting jython to me, a way to use python within java
18:01 < kanzure> but again, it's questionable in my opinion
18:01 < fenn> http://bugcommunity.com/wiki/index.php/Download_an_application_from_BUGnet
18:02 < kanzure> it's proprietary, it's to be expected
18:02 < kanzure> even though it's open source
18:02 < kanzure> "log in to BUGnet"
18:02 < kanzure> just sounds like it to me.
18:02 < fenn> well.. i dunno
18:03 < fenn> i dont think its malicious, just unaware
18:03 < fenn> they dont teach distributed open development in school, ya know
18:03 < kanzure> definitely not malacious
18:03 < kanzure> fenn: well they should
18:03 < kanzure> :)
18:03 < kanzure> "How to be a good person"
18:03 < fenn> uh, how exactly would that work?
18:04 < fenn> 'for your final project, you have to come up with something and/or join a project already in existence and possibly achieve something (in cooperation with other people who may or may not exist)
18:05 < fenn> school fails completely in all the places where distributed open development shines
18:07 < fenn> it's too big
18:07 < fenn> the bug platform thingy
18:07 < kanzure> the platform is too big ?
18:08 < kanzure> or you mean the possibilities are too broad?
18:08 < fenn> yeah it's just over pocket sized
18:08 < fenn> you can increase functionality within a form factor, but changing a form factor is hard (especially when you set out to create an industrial ecology)
18:09 < kanzure> oh, I need to go read the latest oww emails if any
18:09 < fenn> not much
18:09 < kanzure> blah, none
18:13 < fenn> did they have first robotics at your school?
18:14 < kanzure> yes, and it sucked
18:14 < kanzure> the compiler sucked
18:14 < kanzure> hurray for proprietary software
18:14 < kanzure> "If you have come to help me, you are wasting your time. But if you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together"
18:15 < kanzure> They did it so that you wouldn't, you know, do any *real* programming.
18:15 < kanzure> and have an unfair advantage
18:15 < kanzure> 'unfair'
18:16 < fenn> thats what i expected but then someone i know was talking about doing C++ programming for first and i was like "what?"
18:16 < kanzure> http://www.pythoncad.org/ <-- seen it? thoughts?
18:16 < kanzure> yeah, you do some C/C++ variant for it
18:16 < kanzure> but you must use their library calls - which isn't a bad thing, but you can't add in your own components to the hardware 
18:16 < fenn> pythoncad shoots low, and didnt achieve its goals (the interface sucks) and the code is way too complicated for its own good
18:16 < kanzure> IIRC. It was my freshman year, so it's a bit fuzzy at the moment.
18:16 < fenn> thancad is better
18:18 < fenn> they should just let people do whatever they can with the $500
18:19 < fenn> i'd love to see people "cheat" by using something that costs less and works better
18:19 < fenn> if it costs half as much, you get to field two robots
18:19 < fenn> if they finagle a deal with a local business, so much the better
18:23 < kanzure> yes
18:23 < kanzure> I think that it's very much about the people that are assigned to help you out
18:23 < kanzure> you're supposed to get engineers from your local community
18:23 < kanzure> but around here that means somebody from Freescale, AMD, etc. Which is fine, but nobody necessarily knows anything about robotics, automation, etc. That's stuff the north-east of the country.
18:24 < kanzure> *country knows about. 
18:24 < fenn> hmm no fabs nearby?
18:24 < fenn> they have regional competitions right?
18:24 < kanzure> I haven't entirely investigated it, but if you look at maps you'll see the north-east is *packed* with fabs
18:24 < kanzure> yes
18:24 < kanzure> Region 13 is basically all of Texas though
18:31 < kanzure> fenn: what's next?
18:31 < kanzure> I've lost my way.
18:31 < kanzure> just work on agx-get ?
18:32 < kanzure> and improve my own presentation of the whole system (because apparently I suck :-)) ?
18:34 < fenn> heh
18:34 < fenn> uh, example metadata file
18:57 < kanzure> ah, right
18:57 < kanzure> but we already did that
18:57 < kanzure> with the example python class
18:57 < kanzure> brb, cleaning cat stuff
18:58 < kanzure> http://twitter.com/kanzure <-- it's like crack, except it's my braindroppings
19:04 < fenn> so, er.. these are just text.. /me wanna link!
19:05 < fenn> i'm interested in the discussion with anissimov
19:06 < fenn> where did the word 'metarepo' come from?
19:10 < fenn> hmm interesting fernhout arrived at the papercraft conclusion independently
19:24 < kanzure> no,
19:24 < kanzure> he suggested origami
19:24 < kanzure> I suggested origami to you
19:24 < kanzure> you modified with papercraft
19:24 < kanzure> and it somehow got to him
19:24 < fenn> i guess i should sign up to openvirgle
19:24 < kanzure> fenn, I've been thinking. The big problem with information management is seeing everything at once on a screen, and organizing all of it. 
19:25 < kanzure> I never quite have enough deskspace
19:25 < kanzure> fenn: also see the recent messages; I have a reply cooking up in another window at the moment
19:25 < fenn> ya engelbart had the right idea
19:25 < kanzure> So, because of the deskspace problem,
19:25 < fenn> zooming interface
19:25 < kanzure> yeah, but also
19:25 < kanzure> I was thinking a few moments ago about a hanging interface
19:25 < kanzure> the floor is really a lot of good space
19:25 < fenn> not just 'floating 3d square with 2d graphics on it' zooming, but semantic zooming
19:26 < kanzure> (yes, I agree with semantic zooming; could be improved with information gradients within brain and mindbots to elaborate; but that's not what I'm talking about)
19:26 < kanzure> I mean physically hanging,
19:26 < kanzure> like you're hanging from the ceiling
19:26 < kanzure> and the information is below you
19:26 < fenn> hey why not just float in a tank of water
19:26 < kanzure> the floor's made up of either lots of CRTs or a giant screen, either way
19:26 < kanzure> where's the data?
19:26 < fenn> all around you!
19:26 < kanzure> ..
19:27 < kanzure> you don't like the hanging idea? :(
19:27 < fenn> babelfish!
19:27 < kanzure> because you could be moved from place to place with automated rollers, easily enough
19:27 < kanzure> screenspace wouldn't be an issue
19:27 < fenn> how about a robocrane
19:27 < kanzure> that seems more complicated
19:27 < kanzure> but serves same function
19:28 < kanzure> I need to upload my logs with TheWOLPRO, we were discussing some alternative computer interfaces
19:28 < fenn> i dont really get it, sorry.. it's always going to be easier to move pictures around a screen than to move the viewer from screen to screen
19:28 < kanzure> such as the setup in The Matrix (not Neo's)
19:28 < kanzure> so you could do a rotating chair I guess
19:28 < fenn> wait, which setup? the keyboards and crt's everywhere or shelves of stuff flying past you?
19:29 < kanzure> keyboards and crt's
19:29 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/interfaces.html
19:29 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Brainstate_augmentation_setup would be paired with it obviously (a biotech way of maintaining your programming session at all costs)
19:29 < fenn> i like those interactive touch tables, cross that with a drafting table and you'd have something usable
19:30 < fenn> but as my friend with 2x24" lcd's points out, when the viewing angle gets too high your eyes and neck start to hurt from looking around too much
19:30 < kanzure> yep
19:30 < fenn> so he prefers higher res smaller monitors after all
19:30 < kanzure> hanging would work pretty well
19:30 < kanzure> body-support, it'd be pretty comfortable
19:31 < kanzure> I wonder if Google would fund the [[brainstate augmentation setup]] project ... surely they have some 'super programmers' that they want to suck every penny out of
19:31 < fenn> ever seen a logarithmic mapping? will try to find some pictures to explain..
19:31 < kanzure> fisheye views?
19:33 < fenn> you know those hyperbolic tiling? sorta like that
19:33 < kanzure> yeah, okay
19:33 < kanzure> I've wanted something like that for a while now
19:34 < fenn> this img looks similar to what i remember http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.neverendingbooks.org/DATA/dedekind1877.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.neverendingbooks.org/index.php/tag/hyperbolic&start=32&h=321&w=550&sz=27&tbnid=tnlyJSUmpMpEsM:&tbnh=78&tbnw=133&hl=en&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhyperbolic%2Binterface%26start%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN&um=1
19:34 < fenn> oh ffs url spam
19:36 < fenn> grar ok nevermind, cant find it
19:38 < fenn> hmm i can think of some main things that kick you out of 'the mode'
19:38 < fenn> mostly, sharp unpredictable noises associated with anxiety or threats
19:38 < kanzure> yes
19:39 < kanzure> I have been discovering that 'faces' are high up there on the list
19:39 < kanzure> also, not knowing what to do next
19:39 < fenn> hmm
19:39 < fenn> faces? like faces of people you recognize or any faces?
19:39 < kanzure> for me it seems to be either, but I need to do more experimenting
19:39 < kanzure> for example, I can try flashing up a random face on my screen when I'm writing code
19:39 < kanzure> and see what that does
19:40 < kanzure> or the rate at which it starts to be a problem
19:40 < fenn> well, it would be distracting
19:40 < kanzure> I suppose.
19:40 < fenn> simply because you have some random thing popping up
19:40 < kanzure> I think I can handle images of faces
19:40 < kanzure> images are images
19:40 < kanzure> real people are annoying and don't have a clue :(
19:40 < fenn> ya the cat is squeaking at me, doesnt have a clue
19:40 < kanzure> sometimes :)
19:40 < kanzure> hrm, I can sometimes deal with cats
19:40 < fenn> this cat is annoying
19:41 < kanzure> for many years I had a rather smart cat in a drawer beside me
19:41 < kanzure> haha
19:41 < kanzure> and he'd just sit there and wait for me to press compile to scratch his ears
19:41 < kanzure> do not - under any circumstance - teach a kitten to talk
19:42 < kanzure> he'll be yapping all the time
19:51 < fenn> take this transform, apply it to your virtual desktop, and do head-tracking to move the 'zoom' point around http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://picard.ups-tlse.fr/~cheritat/GalII/mof6js.png&imgrefurl=http://picard.ups-tlse.fr/~cheritat/GalII/galery.html&start=6&h=600&w=800&sz=311&tbnid=ucUjLQrLGWSIRM:&tbnh=107&tbnw=143&hl=en&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dconformal%2Bgrid%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG&um=1
19:52 < fenn> it should work in 3d too
19:53 < fenn> oops sry this one: http://picard.ups-tlse.fr/~cheritat/GalII/mof6js.png
19:59 < fenn> you wouldn't see the grid while using it of course
20:02 < kanzure> http://dx.doi.org/10.1109/E-SCIENCE.2007.72
20:02 < kanzure> http://ai.isi.edu/div3/pubs/papers/gil2007wings.pdf
20:04 < fenn> "nanochip plans to make MEMS cantilever arrays to store 100GB on a chip by 2010"
20:05 < fenn> using polarization to store data
21:10 < kanzure> fenn: I found something interesting.
21:11 < kanzure> A relative of mine. I never knew her last name, but just got it via facebook.
21:11 < kanzure> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Judy+Farrin%22
21:13 < kanzure> "A programming model for automated decomposition on heterogeneous clusters of microprocessors"
21:14 < fenn> by sean peisert and scott baden?
21:15 < fenn> i dont see the connection
21:16 < fenn> oh, she was his school teacher
21:51 < kanzure> she also gave me a collection of C books back when I was 12
21:51 < kanzure> after asking, of course
21:51 < kanzure> fenn: looks like we might have a publication opportunity
21:51 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.U._Sirius
21:51 < kanzure> R.U. Sirius is running a new magazine and he's offered me 600 to 1k words, if it's dense + accessible. re: SKDB. 
21:52 < kanzure> "The Revolution Party"
21:52 < kanzure> "The Open Source Party"
23:44 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/2008-05-15_bioscenarios.html <-- I guess I was babbling a bit.
23:46 < kanzure> fenn, nsh, ybit - http://heybryan.org/2008-05-15_bioscenarios.html <-- I guess I was babbling a bit. It's my analysis of a paper on the future of biotechnology and the perceived threats of the tech on govt and people etc.