--- Day changed Thu May 29 2008
00:38 < kanzure> Constructional features of a 15-litre home-made bioreactor for fed-batch fermentations.pdf
00:39 < kanzure> http://www.academicjournals.org/AJB/PDF/Pdf2003/AugustPDFs2003/Gueguim-Kana et al.pdf
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12:12 < Phreedom> /nickserv identify help
12:12 < Phreedom> grrrr
12:12 < Phreedom> ybit: ping
12:19 < ybit> pong
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15:50 < kanzure> Had a bit of a crisis. Hard drive was full again. Was out all day with family (graduation stuff). But I did get a hefty load of books.
15:52 < kanzure> Acquired: The World's Greatest Fix (nitrogen tracing), Schleif's genetics and mol-bio, A laboratory guide to the mammalian embryo, Burnell's postcards from the brain museum, biotech, Flow cytometry, some protocols, Napoleon's buttons, and Phikal.
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16:44 < kanzure> U.S. Plan for 'Thinking Machines' Repository
16:44 < kanzure> Posted by samzenpus on Wednesday May 28, @07:19PM
16:44 < kanzure> from the save-those-ideas-for-later dept.
16:44 < kanzure> An anonymous reader writes "Information scientists organized by the U.S.'s
16:44 < kanzure> NIST say they will create a "concept bank" that programmers can use to build
16:44 < kanzure> thinking machines that reason about complex problems at the frontiers of
16:44 < kanzure> knowledge - from advanced manufacturing to biomedicine. The agreement by
16:44 < kanzure> ontologists - experts in word meanings and in using appropriate words to
16:44 < kanzure> build actionable machine commands - outlines the critical functions of the
16:44 < kanzure> Open Ontology Repository (OOR). More on the summit that produced the
16:44 < kanzure> agreement here."
17:23 < kanzure> fenn: ever read the pikhal books ?
18:15 < nsh> pihkal?
18:15 < nsh> & tihkal
18:26 < Splicer> a friend of mine was into that stuff
18:28 < Splicer> (i think the names come from an old carlos castandea book... new age stuff)
18:39 < kanzure> The guy is somewhat of a legend for experimenting on himself. But I'd call him stupid for not making a neural slice setup instead. And *then* moving up to his own brain.
18:52 < kanzure> http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal.shtml <-- the second part of the book I mentioned.
18:52 < kanzure> The entire erowid.org site needs to be 'vamped up' to be more technically literate -- i.e., automated experimentation and toxicity testing, 'brain sandboxing' and whatnot.
18:58 < Splicer> They are still remarkable considering the culture they stem from
19:01  * nsh frowns
19:06 < kanzure> nsh: indeed
19:06 < nsh> coupla things: (a) erowid is a contributor-based site. the organisers have very little to do with the production of content. (b) the vast majority of the substances under their purview are illegal [ (c) pihkal and tihkal are acronyms, (phenethylamines¦tryptamines i have known and loved) ]
19:07 < kanzure> nsh: These drug-takers, like from erowid.org etc., they don't seem too serious about their brains. The point is the brain, not necessarily the moment-by-moment experience or highs they get out of it. So that's why it's such a backwash culture.
19:07 < kanzure> right
19:07  * nsh smiles
19:07 < kanzure> They are amateurs, but they aren't professional amateurs.
19:07 < kanzure> Does that even make sense?
19:08 < nsh> sure
19:08 < kanzure> I think the 'professional' and 'amateur' aspects might counteract each other and you're back to zero, but that's another issue entirely.
19:08 < nsh> i'm not certain what you meant by 'the point is the brain', though
19:08 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Bioreactors <-- I posted an email.
19:09 < kanzure> At least in my work.
19:10 < kanzure> I suppose I might refer to goal orientation.
19:10 < kanzure> but they do have goals -- self-wankery, right?
19:10 < kanzure> I don't know how to characterize it; is this bad? And does it mean that my distinction is flawed?
19:11 < kanzure> I'm *pretty sure* that injection of hallucinogenics, paralytic-agents, etc., is a bad idea. But hey, I might be wrong.
19:11  * nsh contemplates
19:12 < nsh> eating isn't for eyeballs
19:14 < kanzure> is this a koan? :/
19:14 < nsh> something like that
19:14 < kanzure> I mean, should I decode/decrypt, or just leave it at that?
19:14 < nsh> what's a good idea for some people isn't a good idea for others, in the context of a greater pattern
19:17 < nsh> subjectivity of expedience
19:17 < kanzure> it's bad systems management practice to volunteer for a virus
19:18 < kanzure> (I might point out that viruses are chemical, not biological, and so have more relation to these erowid.org's hallucinogenics than otherwise.)
19:18  * nsh smiles
19:18 < kanzure> Though the dispute between bio/chem in the context of viruses is rather silly ... they self-replicate, no?
19:19 < nsh> right
19:19 < nsh> like turns of phrase
19:21 < Splicer> nsh: you're right.. and I can't find the castaneda reference
19:24 < kanzure> So, I'd have to argue that the erowid.org contributors are wild and stupid in most cases (there's actually a few chemicals on there that I suspect have been, in fact, experimentally verified and so on, which is fine, i.e. water), but ... anyway. :)
19:24 < Splicer> (.. n enjoyed the koan)
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19:47 < kanzure> Woah, this is an amazing generalization of money-centric thinking: http://3trillion.org/categories/7-health-beauty
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20:10 < Splicer> time to sleep.. cu
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21:44 < kanzure> fenn, this was all a stupid idea. KDE is now incredibly slow.
23:09 < ybit> kanzure: that was a nice message in diybio
23:10 < ybit> it was a good read while bored @ work :P
23:10 < kanzure> ybit: Thank you :)
23:10 < kanzure> Oh was it? :)
23:10 < ybit> would have been good even without work of course :)
23:10 < ybit> that's quite a creative concept
23:10 < ybit> have you been developing a bio lab @ your house?
23:10 < kanzure> Have any ideas on what you'd use it for? 
23:11 < kanzure> Heh, perhaps ;-)
23:11 < kanzure> I'm barely anywhere near completed, especially since I'm totally broke.
23:11 < ybit> i'm hoping to get some materials for a lab soon with mi money
23:12 < ybit> phreedom: http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/t/b5adcd35fd1072c
23:14 < kanzure> You should read through the biohacking kit, there's a lot of really, really cheap ideas.
23:15 < kanzure> For example, the centrifuge is my favorite at the moment. It's a broken bicycle. You peddle to make it spin.
23:17 < Phreedom> kanzure: actually it makes sense to have an assortment of electric motors in any lab
23:19 < Phreedom> ybit: this is more or less along the lines of what I was thinking
23:19 < kanzure> Phreedom: I agree about motors. But again, I'm broke. I have some servos laying around, but not much. I need to go garbage hunting soon.
23:20 < Phreedom> ybit: the hardest part is to make the DNA assembler, but the tech that can make this assembler will produce the rest of the lab as well
23:20 < Phreedom> kanzure: naturally used ones work just as fine
23:20 < Phreedom> kanzure: actually a used bicycle is harder to find ;)
23:21 < kanzure> Heh.
23:21 < kanzure> btw, the DNA assembler is just a giant inkjet printer
23:21 < kanzure> http://bioinformatics.org/pogo/
23:21 < Phreedom> with a $20k+ price tag
23:21 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/DNA_synthesizer
23:22 < kanzure> price tag?
23:22 < kanzure> We're talking about building it.
23:22 < Phreedom> hmm... I thought they had a bill of materials somewhere
23:22 < kanzure> Yeah, they do, I don't remember it being that high.
23:22 < kanzure> it's in one of the PDFs.
23:23 < Phreedom> I think 20k comes from their pdf
23:23 < Phreedom> but it not a big deal
23:23 < Phreedom> most of the cost is positioning system and control electronics
23:23 < Phreedom> exactly what I'm working on
23:23 < Phreedom> and it can be made orders of magnitude cheaper
23:24 < kanzure> Woah, you're right. $23k.
23:24 < kanzure> yes, I agree
23:25 < kanzure> that $20k pricetag is completely outrageous
23:25 < Phreedom> but notice that 16k goes towards positioning+electronic
23:25 < Phreedom> I think I can get it into $500-1000 range
23:25 < kanzure> $4k motion table ? wtf?
23:25 < Phreedom> also they have inflated the price of a pentium III PC :)
23:25 < Phreedom> high-precision stuff costs money
23:26 < kanzure> weird, $450 for the wiring for the drivers / power supply
23:26 < Phreedom> probably lots of cables, stands
23:26 < ybit> p3 inflation, hehe
23:26  * ybit was distracted
23:26 < Phreedom> they had to buy metallic cases and other stuff you could make cheaper
23:26 < kanzure> Phreedom: So where's your work on that, anyway?
23:27 < kanzure> right, they did it in a nitrogen atmosphere
23:27 < Phreedom> where? in my lab of course
23:27 < ybit> ..with a girl :| ..believe it or not though, she wasn't asian
23:27 < kanzure> so they had a pretty tight container system going on there
23:27 < Phreedom> I think ybit once tried to make me tell more about the project :)
23:28 < ybit> hehe, more than once if i recall correctly ;)
23:28  * kanzure isn't saying anything, but "is now the new webmaster of" http://transhumanism.org/ wouldn't be too far from a truth. Now, how the *hell* do we fix this site? Ethics? WTF.
23:29 < Phreedom> ybit: more like 10 times
23:29 < ybit> 100
23:29 < ybit> 10x100 ..anyone catch that?
23:29 < ybit> man, i'm smooth
23:29  * Phreedom thinks ybit caught the p3 inflation bug
23:29 < ybit> :P
23:29 < Phreedom> kanzure: I need a webmaster too :)
23:30 < Phreedom> and a site
23:30 < Phreedom> and an actually working device :)
23:30 < kanzure> Heh :)
23:30 < ybit> first, you need information my friend
23:30 < Phreedom> working on the device though
23:30 < ybit> blueprints
23:30 < kanzure> But really, these guys have, uh, money.
23:30 < kanzure> yes, we have those
23:30 < kanzure> I have those, at least.
23:30 < kanzure> or am working towards it, and know who to hit up to make sure I'm not talking out my ass
23:30 < Phreedom> blueprints are not enough
23:30 < kanzure> of course
23:30 < kanzure> it's just that this website entirely sucks
23:31 < Phreedom> you need blueprints you can actually use at home
23:31 < kanzure> if you're a techie, your immediate urge is to click off
23:31 < kanzure> yeah, that's true
23:31 < Phreedom> and you need to bootstrap the process
23:31 < kanzure> Phreedom: So that's where the automated manufacturing project comes into play.
23:31 < kanzure> yes, that's where the bioreactor can come into play re: bootstraping
23:31 < kanzure> *bootstrapping
23:31 < kanzure> or possibly the philanthropical bootstrapping of apt-get downloads of the fablab/skdb
23:32 < kanzure> but I'm not sure if I should just flat out assert a hostile takeover of the website
23:32  * ybit will bbl. me needs some veggies
23:32 < Phreedom> the site looks like a typical corporate crap
23:32 < Phreedom> offering solutions for vaguely defined problems
23:33 < Phreedom> with lots of fuzzy stuff intermingled with meaningless crap
23:33  * Phreedom quits bitching
23:36 < kanzure> yeah, exactly
23:36 < kanzure> this is supposed to be 'transhumanism' -- i.e., the people that are hacking their brains and doing augmentation, ai, neuroscience, clanking replicators, nanotech, space exploration, etc. etc.
23:36 < kanzure> but instead it's this crappy website that, somehow, is making more money than I do, by doing -less-
23:47 < Phreedom> kanzure: they're doing more to get funding :P
23:56 < kanzure> *for what* ? :-p
23:56 < kanzure> they're not doing anything
23:59 < Phreedom> kanzure: but where does money come from?