--- Day changed Wed Jun 04 2008 00:00 < kanzure> these references are quickly getting me into the photography-PDF papers from the '60s 00:09 < kanzure> hahah, oh boy, crash crash crash 00:10 * kanzure frowns at losing 20 pages of notes 00:50 < kanzure> savestate http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Polymerase 00:52 -!- h2i [n=u1@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 00:52 < kanzure> Hi ybit. 00:53 -!- h2i [n=u1@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Client Quit] 01:17 -!- h2i [n=u1@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:34 -!- h2i [n=u1@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [No route to host] 01:37 -!- Splicer [n=p@h34n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [] 02:10 -!- joshcryer [n=g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:10 < kanzure> fenn: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Polymerase the big, giant blog of text is probably what will be most helpful 02:10 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:37 -!- joshcryer [n=g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:38 < joshcryer> So it seems to me most of you guys are focused on bioengineering. 02:38 < joshcryer> Rather than chemistry or electronics or software. 02:38 < Vedestin> there's a chemistry channel 02:38 < joshcryer> Related to replicatin or h+/ 02:39 < Vedestin> oh, no 02:39 < Vedestin> they're mostly drug addicts 02:39 < joshcryer> #chemistry is general purpose... I don't think they'd like my ramblings much. 02:39 < joshcryer> Though they'd understand more about how I think we could go about this. 02:39 < Vedestin> what are you thinking? 02:40 < joshcryer> High temperature compound seperation (recycling). 02:40 < joshcryer> I'm converting those Thermodynamic Tables to Djvu format (because Adobe PDF is hopelessly slow). 02:40 < joshcryer> It's taken almost 24 hours. 02:41 < Vedestin> ahh 02:42 < Vedestin> so what are you going to do? mine landfill? 02:46 < joshcryer> Yeah you could. 02:46 < joshcryer> Part of the problem is breaking things down to their constituant parts. 02:46 < joshcryer> Now I read some of the backlog and lot here seem to look to bioengineering for that. 02:46 < joshcryer> But that's an unknown field imvho. 02:46 < joshcryer> We already know how to melt stuff down and chemically seperate. 02:47 < joshcryer> The Thermodynamic Tables have every combination known to man. 02:47 < joshcryer> The other part of the problem is recombining those elements into something useful. 02:47 < facefaceface> but plastics don't melt nice 02:47 < joshcryer> I think RepRap is doing OK in that vein so why not meet them halfway? 02:48 < facefaceface> there is no propper tm, cus they ... scorch? I forgot the precise term 02:48 < joshcryer> Plastics don't normally biodegrade, either. 02:48 < joshcryer> You gotta engineer something that will eat them. 02:48 < facefaceface> word 02:48 < joshcryer> Ever hear about the Great Pacific Landfill? 02:48 < joshcryer> A great amount of the worlds plastic winds up there. 02:48 < Vedestin> the ocean? 02:48 < joshcryer> It photodegrades. 02:48 -!- facefaceface is now known as faceface 02:48 < joshcryer> So it will break down into smaller molocules. 02:49 < joshcryer> But what happens is the ocean currents put it in the north pacific. 02:49 < Vedestin> so what is it, just a big island of floating shit 02:49 < joshcryer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_Garbage_Patch 02:49 < joshcryer> Yep. 02:49 < joshcryer> Valueable shit! 02:50 < joshcryer> 100 million tons of plastic and other garbage. 02:51 < Vedestin> yeah, no i have heard of that 02:55 < Vedestin> so what do you want to do? gather up discarded plastic, put it under heat and pressure and make it back in to useful shit? 02:56 < joshcryer> Yeah 02:56 < joshcryer> But not just that. 02:56 < joshcryer> Plain soil has 10g of Ti, 90g of Al, etc. 02:56 < joshcryer> (1000 grams of soil.) 02:57 < joshcryer> So it'd be great for recycling landfills but you could use it to make stuff out of plain dirt! 03:00 < faceface> "crystalline melting temperature" 03:01 < faceface> The boiling point of a polymer substance is never defined because polymers will decompose before reaching theoretical boiling temperatures. 03:02 < Vedestin> that's really more chemical engineering than transhumanism joshcryer 03:03 < joshcryer> Vedestin, you gotta start somewhere. 03:03 < joshcryer> Advanced production -> AI -> transhumanism. 03:03 < joshcryer> imvho. 03:04 < joshcryer> I came here cause kanzure said I might like it since you discuss replication. 03:04 < Vedestin> yeah, fair point 03:05 < joshcryer> The discussion started with moon base replicators in #space. :) 03:24 < Vedestin> moon bases capable of building other moon bases? 03:27 < joshcryer> Yeah 03:28 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:31 < Vedestin> it sure is interesting 03:31 < Vedestin> but yeah, they talk about boot strapping and that sort of thing in here 03:31 < Vedestin> i don't really know much about it 03:31 < Vedestin> they tell an analogy to me about some guy who built his own milling machine out of scrap metal and old broken shit 03:34 < joshcryer> Yeah 03:34 < joshcryer> You can do that. 03:34 < Vedestin> yeah, i know 03:34 < joshcryer> You can make a forge that can melt metal that can be used to make a machine shop. 03:35 < joshcryer> That's basically classic bootstrapping right there. 03:35 < joshcryer> Then you use the machine shop tools to make even more intricate stuff. 03:35 < Vedestin> yeah 04:04 < faceface> to what extent is this idea of classic 'bootstrapping' analogous to a computer booting up? 04:05 < faceface> does the analogy continue into the relm of developmental biology? 04:05 < faceface> send me your essays by next tuesday 04:09 < Vedestin> isn't that why it's called booting up 04:27 < joshcryer> Consider insemination and duplication. 04:27 < joshcryer> The rather classic example of biological bootstrapping. 04:28 -!- nsh [n=nsh@eduroam-80.uta.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:49 -!- fenn [n=pz@adsl-76-248-69-140.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:49 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: http://heybryan.org/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ http://heybryan.org/exp.html | krebs is now servicing the channel. try !help 09:49 -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Tue Apr 29 18:54:31 2008] 09:49 [Users #hplusroadmap] 09:49 [ faceface] [ fenn] [ joshcryer] [ nsh] [ Phreedom] [ Vedestin] 09:49 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 6 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 6 normal] 09:50 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008 09:50 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 21 secs 10:04 -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@www.online.dn.ua] has left #hplusroadmap ["Kopete 0.12.4 : http://kopete.kde.org"] 11:16 -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@www.online.dn.ua] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:45 -!- joshcryer [n=g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:42 < fenn> so, reprap finally did it: http://bp3.blogger.com/_sKFX5zDfq4o/SEW9ijZSbuI/AAAAAAAAALE/PV73sYll04g/s1600-h/pc-va.jpg 14:37 -!- kanzure [i=bryan@dhcp-146-6-213-183.icmb.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:40 < kanzure> fenn: could you send me your FPGA DNA Winfree stuff ? 14:40 < kanzure> you said you sent CBA the info, but I never saw your email 15:13 < fenn> its just the wiki page: fennetic.net/machines/replicator 15:22 -!- parodyoflanguage [i=pseudony@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:22 < parodyoflanguage> Hello? 15:25 < parodyoflanguage> Anyone active? 15:27 < fenn> sorta 15:28 < parodyoflanguage> Well, hi then, to what is active. 15:30 < parodyoflanguage> Anyway, I heard about this project from the extropy mailing list, and I've been on the hplusroadmap list. 15:30 < parodyoflanguage> Though, there's a lot of stuff I'm not really understanding, but you guys are actually doing synthetic biology or just talking about it? 15:33 < parodyoflanguage> I don't really know what the function/purpose of the programming you're doing is. 15:34 < parodyoflanguage> hold on: found http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Getting_up_to_speed 15:35 < parodyoflanguage> Are there logs of this channel? 16:40 < fenn> no 16:40 < fenn> bryan is doing (or will be shortly) synthetic biology at U. Texas/Austin 16:40 < fenn> school crushed any interest i might have had in genetic engineering 16:41 < fenn> so i'm now focused more on personal manufacturing 16:56 < parodyoflanguage> ah 18:15 < kanzure> *ahem* 18:15 * kanzure is sitting in the lab. 18:15 < kanzure> so, I apologize for my lag 18:16 < kanzure> it really is personal manufacturing, the trick is that it's all wetware and wetware sucks since it's not solid state 18:16 < kanzure> parodyoflanguage: Yes, there are logs of the channel. 18:17 < kanzure> However, it's more of a need-to-know basis ... but last night I was uploading a partial log. http://heybryan.org/chats/2008-06-03_synthetic_biology_stuff_%23hplusroadmap.html 18:24 < kanzure> fenn: so it turns out that not many enzymes are all that photosensitive 18:24 < kanzure> however, I can't think of a 'go to next spot' signal that would be better than photons 18:25 < kanzure> so if we can come up with, say, photo-activated rifampicin, which some papers have been saying specifically blocks stuff like RNA polymerase active site (where the magic happens), that would be great. by 'photo-activated' I mean 'make it into its pesky form, otherwise just sit there and do nothing special'. but it's sketchy. 18:30 -!- fenn [n=pz@adsl-75-60-173-177.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:30 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: http://heybryan.org/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ http://heybryan.org/exp.html | krebs is now servicing the channel. try !help 18:30 -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Tue Apr 29 18:54:31 2008] 18:30 [Users #hplusroadmap] 18:30 [ faceface] [ kanzure] [ parodyoflanguage] [ Vedestin] 18:30 [ fenn ] [ nsh ] [ Phreedom ] 18:30 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 7 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 7 normal] 18:31 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008 18:31 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 32 secs 18:38 < kanzure> oh 18:39 < kanzure> I bet polymerase knows what the other nucleotide is, via voltages 18:39 < kanzure> there's a distinct voltage for each nucleotide 18:39 < kanzure> last I checked, there are STM tips that are sharp enough to scan DNA 18:39 < kanzure> so we can use these tips + quantum tunneling to test that 18:39 < kanzure> if so, we can just make tips that run in synch with the polymerase molecules 18:39 < kanzure> but that's mixing solid state and wet ware :( 19:08 < fenn> AFM is not solid state 19:09 < fenn> and do you have any examples of actual DNA sequencing with STM/AFM? 19:24 -!- fenn [n=pz@adsl-76-251-87-45.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:24 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: http://heybryan.org/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ http://heybryan.org/exp.html | krebs is now servicing the channel. try !help 19:24 -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Tue Apr 29 18:54:31 2008] 19:24 [Users #hplusroadmap] 19:24 [ faceface] [ fenn] [ nsh] [ parodyoflanguage] [ Phreedom] [ Vedestin] 19:24 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 6 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 6 normal] 19:24 -!- [freenode-info] if you need to send private messages, please register: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg 19:24 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008 19:24 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 33 secs 19:46 -!- ybit [n=u1@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:25 -!- fenn [n=pz@adsl-76-251-85-70.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:25 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: http://heybryan.org/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ http://heybryan.org/exp.html | krebs is now servicing the channel. try !help 20:25 -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Tue Apr 29 18:54:31 2008] 20:25 [Users #hplusroadmap] 20:25 [ faceface] [ kanzure] [ parodyoflanguage] [ Vedestin] 20:25 [ fenn ] [ nsh ] [ Phreedom ] [ ybit ] 20:25 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 8 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 8 normal] 20:25 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008 20:25 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 34 secs 20:31 < kanzure> fenn: possible collaboration with http://freedomofscience.org/ 20:31 < kanzure> /they/ contacted /me/ 20:52 -!- fenn_ [n=pz@adsl-76-251-86-248.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:52 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: http://heybryan.org/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ http://heybryan.org/exp.html | krebs is now servicing the channel. try !help 20:52 -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Tue Apr 29 18:54:31 2008] 20:52 [Users #hplusroadmap] 20:52 [ faceface] [ fenn_ ] [ nsh ] [ Phreedom] [ ybit] 20:52 [ fenn ] [ kanzure] [ parodyoflanguage] [ Vedestin] 20:52 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 9 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 9 normal] 20:52 -!- [freenode-info] please register your nickname...don't forget to auto-identify! http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup 20:52 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008 20:52 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 38 secs 21:03 -!- fenn [n=pz@adsl-76-251-85-70.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:03 < kanzure> fenn_: tell me when your connection stops sucking 21:31 -!- fenn [n=pz@adsl-76-251-86-74.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:31 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: http://heybryan.org/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ http://heybryan.org/exp.html | krebs is now servicing the channel. try !help 21:31 -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Tue Apr 29 18:54:31 2008] 21:31 [Users #hplusroadmap] 21:31 [ faceface] [ fenn_ ] [ nsh ] [ Phreedom] [ ybit] 21:31 [ fenn ] [ kanzure] [ parodyoflanguage] [ Vedestin] 21:31 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 9 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 9 normal] 21:31 -!- [freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp 21:31 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008 21:32 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 34 secs 21:44 -!- fenn_ [n=pz@adsl-76-251-86-248.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:53 -!- fenn [n=pz@adsl-76-251-85-42.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:53 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: http://heybryan.org/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ http://heybryan.org/exp.html | krebs is now servicing the channel. try !help 21:53 -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Tue Apr 29 18:54:31 2008] 21:53 [Users #hplusroadmap] 21:53 [ faceface] [ kanzure] [ parodyoflanguage] [ Vedestin] 21:53 [ fenn ] [ nsh ] [ Phreedom ] [ ybit ] 21:53 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 8 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 8 normal] 21:53 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008 21:54 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 34 secs 22:05 < kanzure> fenn: I just got a press release from RepRap saying it's able to make all of its parts 22:06 < kanzure> 'RepRap has, so far, been capable of making everyday plastic goods such as 22:06 < kanzure> door handles,sandals and coat hooks. Now, the machine has also succeeded 22:06 < kanzure> in copying all its own 3D-printed parts.   These parts have been printed' 22:06 < fenn> yay. it's about time 22:10 < kanzure> so, if this is true, then I estimate 30 days until it's covering the planet 22:21 < Vedestin> 30 days 22:21 < Vedestin> that's not long at all 22:21 < Vedestin> what can't it reproduce? 22:22 < kanzure> itself 22:24 < Phreedom> Vedestin: almost everything 22:24 < Vedestin> fair enough 22:24 < Phreedom> plastic corners aren't very useful you know 22:24 < Phreedom> and they didn't address generational degradation 22:24 < Vedestin> no i guess not 22:25 < Phreedom> so far (semi-)commerially manufatured reprap plastic parts were not printed by a reprap 22:25 < Vedestin> so they're more durable? 22:25 < Phreedom> and somewhat resemble the parts that are needed :) 22:25 < Vedestin> i see 22:26 < Phreedom> if you take a closer look at reprap-made reprap parts, you'll see what I'm talking about 22:26 < kanzure> argh 22:26 < Vedestin> are the angles wrong? 22:26 < kanzure> why the hell would they do that sort of a press release 22:26 < Phreedom> recently there were posted photos of quite high quality prints 22:26 < kanzure> "WE DID IT! YAY AYAYAYAYAY! HUMANITY DAY" 22:26 < Phreedom> but they were done using a better positioning system 22:26 < Phreedom> or so it seems 22:27 < Phreedom> I may be mistaken 22:27 < Phreedom> so better see for yourself 22:27 < Phreedom> of course reprap is progressing 22:27 < Phreedom> but IMHO it's still not ready 22:27 < Vedestin> not ready to what? 22:27 < Phreedom> not ready to live up to its promise 22:28 < Phreedom> lossless self-replication 22:28 < Vedestin> oh 22:28 < Vedestin> i'm not sure what the point of it is beyond that 22:28 < Vedestin> why would you bother making anything with it other than another reprap 22:28 < Phreedom> there's a hope reprap can be used to bootstrap other more useful manufacturing tehnologies 22:29 < Phreedom> ie their idea is spread reprap first and then make repraps around the world continuously upgrade themselves 22:29 < Vedestin> so repraps will eventually be able to make circuits? 22:30 < Phreedom> better ask reprap devs ;) 22:30 < Vedestin> seems kind of useless if it cant 22:30 < kanzure> Vedestin: exactly 22:30 < Phreedom> my take on this is that it can be done eventually... but it's like reinventing the wheel 22:31 < Phreedom> so I'm trying do go a more direct route 22:31 < Phreedom> that is produce a capable machine form the get go 22:31 < Phreedom> *from 22:31 < Vedestin> so it'll start with people getting a piece of pcb, reprap draws a circuit on and they etch it themselves or something 22:31 < Phreedom> more or less 22:31 < Vedestin> then they've got to get IC and all that 22:31 < Phreedom> of ourse 22:32 < Phreedom> reprap guys did a good job with plastic extruders 22:32 < Phreedom> their extruder head is quite usable already 22:32 < Phreedom> but on a good cnc machine, not a reprap :( 23:02 -!- joshcryer [n=g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:04 < kanzure> Hey joshcryer. 23:05 < joshcryer> Sup 23:08 < kanzure> Crying about #reprap. 23:08 < joshcryer> There's a #reprap? 23:08 < kanzure> yes 23:08 < joshcryer> Ooh. 23:08 < joshcryer> It's bigger than here. 23:08 < kanzure> joshcryer: There was a press release today saying that RepRap self-replicates already. :( 23:08 < kanzure> it implied it, at least. 23:08 < joshcryer> kanzure, hah! HAH! 23:09 < joshcryer> They didn't imply it there's a friggin picture showing the clone. :) 23:15 < kanzure> sorry, it didn't build itself -- a critical component of the design is the electronics 23:16 < joshcryer> kanzure, I just know not three days ago you and nsh were saying that it couldn't even do what it was supposed to do (make the parts that it claimed to be able to make). 23:16 < kanzure> no 23:16 < kanzure> it's supposed to self-replicate 23:16 < kanzure> the claims from darwin are BS 23:17 < kanzure> darwin is not replicating and thus shouldn't be taking up the name 'RepRap' 23:18 < joshcryer> No. 23:18 < joshcryer> 1.0 was supposed to create much of the parts that consist of its design. 23:18 < joshcryer> The eventual goal is replication. 23:19 < joshcryer> Not the first step. 23:19 < joshcryer> We've been over this twice man. 23:25 < fenn> then they should say that in the press release hmm? somehow "replication achieved" doesnt quite convey the same information 23:26 * fenn wonders if its worth reading #reprap backlog 23:28 < kanzure> fenn: it's more of the same 23:28 < kanzure> fenn: however, there's one interesting thing I have learned 23:28 < kanzure> they think it's "evolutionary" because of the *social* design process 23:28 < kanzure> i.e., each person downloads it and they make an iterative hack on to the system 23:28 < kanzure> and they say "look! it's evolving!" 23:28 < fenn> they think it's "evolutionary" because it's named "darwin" 23:29 < kanzure> basically, "because everybody wants it to self-replicate, they will make it do that eventually" 23:29 < fenn> i.e. someone told them so 23:41 < Phreedom> actually they'll make it eventually 23:41 < Phreedom> the question is when 23:42 < fenn> there's no plan 23:42 < Phreedom> yeah 23:42 < Phreedom> no plan to address current known shortcomings 23:42 < Phreedom> (without scapping the whole thing of course) 23:42 < kanzure> scrapping? 23:42 < Phreedom> throwing away 23:42 < kanzure> I think they hate me because what I suggest would require scrapping :( 23:42 < Phreedom> maybe I'm not very good at english 23:43 < Phreedom> actually while I think reprap is far away from *lossless* replication, i think the project is partially successful and definitely useful 23:43 < Phreedom> they made a good extruder head 23:43 < Phreedom> and they managed to assemble community 23:43 < kanzure> oh, it's successful, socially, it's useful, but it's not RepRap 23:43 < Phreedom> so if a more practical project comes to replace reprap, there's some foundation to build on 23:43 < kanzure> like SKDB 23:44 < Phreedom> kanzure: correct 23:44 < kanzure> *ahem* 23:44 < kanzure> that's our whole point 23:44 < kanzure> but talking to you is like preaching to the choir 23:44 < kanzure> you're already doing similar work, right? 23:46 < Phreedom> yes 23:47 < Phreedom> a practical machine 23:47 < Phreedom> without claims for self-replication, although it does make it's frame corners, metallic this time :) 23:48 < Phreedom> and it can replicate frame corners losslessly 23:49 < kanzure> fenn: interesting question-based approach 23:49 < kanzure> forces them to answer something important 23:50 < fenn> or just ignore me 23:50 < Phreedom> or play games till you take ball and go home 23:51 < kanzure> it just hurts so badly though 23:51 < kanzure> why would they make such a press release 23:51 < kanzure> how is that playing fair? 23:51 < Phreedom> truth sucks if you ignore it too much 23:51 < Phreedom> kanzure: but they are hurting themselves 23:51 < Phreedom> not you 23:51 < Phreedom> always check the facts, read articles, not headlines 23:51 < Phreedom> and you'll be fine 23:52 < kanzure> somehow I fear that they are, in fact, hurting me 23:52 < kanzure> first, the fact that their snowball is well underway 23:52 < kanzure> second, that there's no reasoning with them 23:52 < kanzure> nobody there seems to have the will to talk it over 23:53 < Phreedom> it's a question of time ;) 23:53 < fenn> people in the chat room aren't actually building anything, btw 23:54 < fenn> nor are they 'officially' affiliated 23:54 < Phreedom> you don't go and try to talk every religious nut you meet into accepting reality? 23:54 < kanzure> I've noticed something about that 23:54 < fenn> so basically you're just talking to some people on freenode 23:54 < kanzure> fenn, it's an academic project 23:54 < kanzure> it looks like it's some hostile professor's project 23:54 < kanzure> who otherwise has good intentions I'm sure 23:54 < Phreedom> lol 23:54 < fenn> why do you say hostile? 23:54 < kanzure> but I think that's what might be going on. 23:54 < kanzure> the fanboys are hostile 23:54 < kanzure> but I'll have to investigate more closely 23:56 < Phreedom> you don't have to call fanboys hostile. calling them fan boys is enough ;) 23:57 < Phreedom> so really it's a bunch of guys playing a game+ army of misinformed fanboys 23:57 < Phreedom> unless they go ahead and show a replicating design :) 23:59 < kanzure> I don't like the insistence on the "well, 1.0 was met, so ha!" 23:59 < kanzure> isn't that a fallacy