--- Day changed Sun Jun 08 2008
00:00 < Vedestin> you're going to get kidnapped
00:00 < Vedestin> and held to ransom
00:00 < Vedestin> this is a targetted nigerian scam
00:00 < kanzure> I'm going to be thrown over a bridge, that's what
00:00 < Vedestin> in a carpet?
00:00 < kanzure> no, in a casket
00:01 < Vedestin> this is a confusing burial tradition
00:01 < Vedestin> are you half indian or something?
00:01 < kanzure> no?
00:01 < Vedestin> casket + river
00:01 < kanzure> well, it's the mafia
00:01 < Vedestin> mafia use carpets
00:01 < kanzure> is that so?
00:01 < kanzure> I thought they used bags, and bricks
00:01 < Vedestin> sometimes they use engine blocks and chains
00:01 < kanzure> I see.
00:02 < kanzure> I'll watch out for that.
00:02 < Vedestin> do
00:02 < Vedestin> if the meeting is scheduled at a scrap yard, don't go
00:02 < kanzure> at least there aren't any bridges nearby
00:02 < Vedestin> there might be a car crusher
00:03 < Vedestin> i think russian mafia just shoot you and bury you
00:03  * Vedestin shrugs
00:03 < Vedestin> how do you know they're mafia
00:04 < kanzure> I'm making a joke
00:04 < kanzure> because the Russian government is somehow notoriously linked to their mafia
00:05 < Vedestin> oh, i thought the russian transhumanists were linked to the mafia
00:05 < Vedestin> i thought that was your joke
00:05 < kanzure> no
00:05 < kanzure> well
00:05 < kanzure> they aren't
00:05 < kanzure> but that is the joke, yes
00:05 < kanzure> because anybody Russian has to have mafia ties, righ?
00:05 < kanzure> *right
00:06 < Vedestin> anybody with internet
00:06 < Vedestin> or money
00:22 -!- Splicer [n=p@h87n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
00:23 < kanzure> Hey Splicer.
00:23 < kanzure> What happened to Biopunk?
00:24 < Splicer> russian maffia
00:25 < Splicer> were you serious about being contacted by russian tranhumaninsts btw?
00:25 < Splicer> claiming gov ties?
00:26 < kanzure> yes
00:26 < Splicer> hehehehe.. cool
00:28 -!- Vedestin [n=Vedestin@d122-109-35-58.sbr3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has left #hplusroadmap []
00:31 < Splicer> I feel a bit sorry for the russians.. they have been through a lot of shit and now it looks like it's beginning again
00:34 -!- Biopunk [n=p@h87n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
00:34 -!- Splicer is now known as Biopunk
00:45 < Biopunk> time to sleep... cu
00:45 -!- Biopunk [n=p@h87n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit []
01:12 < kanzure> I must be running out of memory.
01:13 < kanzure> Didn't I come up with the idea of abstracting the template way, using template-independence, by transfering diffused 'template ghoster molecules' (of separate triphosphate base structs, for the different polymerases), and then these polymerases would have to select a nucleotide that matches it. 
01:13 < kanzure> (hopefully a normal nucleotide)
01:13 < kanzure> therefore I don't need to do selection nonsense
01:48 -!- Vedestin [n=Vedestin@d122-109-35-58.sbr3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #hplusroadmap
02:03 < ybit> kanzure, you up?
02:03 < kanzure> ybit: yes
02:03 < ybit> you wouldn't happen to have an introductory neurosci ebook would you? :)
02:04 < ybit> if not, i suppose i could print off my textbooks and read them instead while bored at work
02:09 < kanzure> hrm
02:09 < kanzure> yes, I believe I do
02:09 < kanzure> but not right now
02:09 < kanzure> let me get you something better
02:09 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/bookmarks/bookmarks-old2//Biology/Neuroscience/index.html#3.18
02:10 < kanzure> I need sleep. g'night
02:11 < ybit> 'night
08:45 -!- Vedestin [n=Vedestin@d122-109-35-58.sbr3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit ["User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby"]
10:05 -!- procto [n=boo@logarchy.org] has joined #hplusroadmap
10:08 < procto> nsh: fancy seeing you here :>
10:12  * nsh victory rolls
11:56 < kanzure> Hey procto.
11:58 < kanzure> procto: We seem to be in agreement re: logarchy.org.
11:58 < kanzure> Ah, I see you're influenced by Max More.
11:59 < kanzure> However, the first one. Governments should not be providing freedoms. They should be building new ways of liberation.
12:20 < procto> hi kanzure 
12:21 < procto> perhaps I didn't phrase quite right. i didn't mean them to provide freedoms, but merely assuring them
12:22 < procto> what freedoms exactly? depending which gov'ts subscription service you buy
12:22 < procto> i'll rephrase the sentence
12:23 < procto> I meant more "provide for the maintenance"
12:23 < procto> kanzure: I think that's better articulated on the govt page http://logarchy.org/govt.html
12:24 < procto> good catch :>
12:25 < fenn> maybe you shouldn't even use the word "government" at all
12:25 < fenn> it has a tendency to cause magical thinking
12:26 < fenn> "the government should send a manned mission to mars"
12:26 < fenn> "the government should do something about the economy"
12:26 < kanzure> Hrm, assuring them?
12:26 < procto> agreed. but if I ommitt the word, people who aren't used to that close up immediatly
12:26 < fenn> or that it just springs up out of nowhere on its own
12:27 < fenn> people have to _make_ it happen
12:27 < kanzure> procto: So, let me describe something we talk about in here frequently
12:27 < procto> mumbling something about anarchists
12:27 < kanzure> it's actually one of fenn's uhh 'goals' or whatever
12:27 < kanzure> one of his projects :)
12:27 < kanzure> he wants space habitats so that he can do what he wants
12:27 < kanzure> without other people interferring, and without doing anything naughty to too many others
12:27 < kanzure> So, in the case of the current governments,
12:27 < procto> right
12:27 < kanzure> they're imposing artificial limitations on us really
12:27 < kanzure> since they are giant resource hogs etc. etc.
12:27 < kanzure> and they aren't trying to make it so that we are more 'liberated'
12:28 < kanzure> by liberated I mean in the sense of http://heybryan.org/exp.html
12:28 < kanzure> check out the Gershenfeld quote on there
12:28  * procto has bee inquiring as to the prices of decomissioned tankers and cargo ships and certain aspects of maritame law
12:28 < fenn> the current government feels threatened by civilians with rocket technology, and have imposed laws to prevent the dissemination of knowledge (ITAR)
12:28 < kanzure> sure, decomissioned tech would be an interesting thing to acquire
12:28 < kanzure> so I guess you're versed in micronations
12:28 < kanzure> but micronations (on earth) don't quite solve the problems
12:28 < kanzure> plus, their nations
12:28 < kanzure> *they're
12:29 < procto> agreed
12:29 < procto> but it'll be a starting point
12:29 < procto> it's a seed that's immediately feasible granted funding
12:29 < kanzure> hrm, Max More in Second Life today: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Extropia%20Core/160/58/22/?img=http%3A//translook.com/images/9/97/Extropiacore3s.jpg&title=SL-Transhumanists%20@%20Extropia%20Core&msg=Welcome%20to%20SL-Transhumanists%20@%20Extropia%20Core
12:29 < kanzure> now if only Second Life worked for me
12:29 < fenn> *wank*
12:30 < kanzure> but you know what, I don't know if I'm going to bother with Second Life today
12:30 < procto> I'm perhaps a decade away from the funds required
12:30 < kanzure> procto: What are you working towards?
12:30 < kanzure> fenn: if Max wants me to use SL to hear him talk, that's totally BS
12:30 < kanzure> he should just show up on skype with a chat function or something
12:30 < kanzure> recently they've been wanting me to use web interfaces to listen to 'Mind' speak on justin.tv,
12:30 < procto> well, a logarchy
12:30 < kanzure> or Second Life to do other naughty things
12:30 < kanzure> totally retarded
12:30 < kanzure> we have skype, we have IRC
12:31 < kanzure> and both of those have low overhead
12:31 < kanzure> procto: Why's that?
12:31 < procto> yes
12:31 < fenn> kanzure: there is a point to SL interaction, but it shouldn't be the only information channel
12:31 < fenn> most people say the same thing over and over anyway
12:32 < procto> kanzure: hmm, that's a fairly complicated question.
12:32 < kanzure> "Here are my points: 1, 2, 3. Okay. Any questions?"
12:32 < kanzure> procto: indeed it is
12:32 < fenn> if you need to attend every virtual talk, you may be a fanboy
12:32 < kanzure> but I've taken similar lines of thought before, so if you do a dense text output in an attempt to explain it, I'm sure I can catch on
12:32 < kanzure> fenn: well, supposedly this is a "how to get transhumanism back on track"
12:32 < kanzure> but the fact that it's in Second Life makes me question it
12:32 < kanzure> I mean, Max is a good guy, I've met him, he can be awesome at times
12:32 < kanzure> but this is retarded :(
12:33 < fenn> was it ever 'on track'?
12:33 < procto> kanzure: I wish for myself to be granted certain freedoms, and in order to be self fulfilled, my close family and friends should be covered by those freedoms as well
12:33 < kanzure> I'd argue yes
12:33 < kanzure> fenn: it's what got the Mind Uploading Research Group together
12:33 < fenn> ah, ok
12:33 < fenn> its all lost in the mists of time for me
12:33 < kanzure> procto: So shouldn't that be done via tech, instead of a government?
12:33 < kanzure> 'granted' means totally nill when faced with the destructive firepower of this battle station
12:33 < kanzure> or whatever the Star Wars quote is :)
12:33 < procto> however, these freedoms cannt be granted via nonscoercive measures, if restricted to that group
12:33 < kanzure> fenn: same here, I wish I would've shown up back then
12:34 < kanzure> procto: what the hell are you talking about with 'granted'
12:34 < kanzure> whether or not you can do X is totally dependent on technical feasability, not politics
12:34 < fenn> procto: freedom is the natural state of things, only limited by oppression and coercion
12:34 < fenn> and technical feasibility :)
12:35 < procto> heh, I don't interact enough with other transhumanists and such, so my nomenclature is tuned to be least offensive to an average person
12:35 < procto> but yes, i am fully agreed on that point
12:35 < procto> so "granted" is in refernce to the current state of things
12:35 < procto> where I have them restricted
12:36 < procto> rather than positing an authority that may be in the business of granting freedoms
12:36 < procto> when i say "government" I merely mean a framework. an infrastructure for social decisions
12:36 < kanzure> I see.
12:36 < procto> I think the best way to do that is via tech
12:36 < fenn> perhaps you should identify the current methods of oppression and restriction forced upon you
12:36 < procto> currently we have a large beurocrcay performing the same function
12:38 < procto> I tend to follow a cycle of collecting knowledge intensely which alternates with creating thingC[C[C[C[C[C[C[Cs
12:38 < fenn> the problem with tech is that right now you have to be a multinational corporation to provide your liberating tech to a large segment of the population
12:38 < procto> right now I'm in the knowledge acquisition stage
12:39 < fenn> and you need to affect a large segment of the population to influence popular opinion, cultural norms, laws, etc
12:39 < procto> so i'm planning to be involved in diybio, which is how I found this channel
12:39 < procto> D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D/whois fenn
12:39 < procto> ding
12:40 < procto> sorry, some weird lag is going on
12:40 < fenn> how do you plan on avoiding harassment as a 'possible bioterrorist'?
12:40  * kanzure just read an awesome quote on extropy-chat; http://heybryan.org/emails/death_does_not_give_meaning_to_life.html
12:40 < fenn> its hard to even order chemicals, much less specific biotech reagents and kits
12:41 < procto> at the moment, I am merely learning by learning, rather than learning by oind. I do not know enough of what I may want to do to formulate protection against my intentions being misconstrued
12:41 < procto> perhaps it may be even more complicated for me, since I am not even a US citizen
12:42 < kanzure> procto: knowledge acquistion stage?
12:42 < kanzure> procto: I'm glad that you found us through diybio.org :)
12:42 < kanzure> procto: http://biohack.sf.net/ was what I had online a few months before diybio.org showed up on the scene
12:42 < kanzure> so now I'm organizing it a bit better, see the youtube link
12:43 < procto> kanzure: yeah. i mean, I "geek out" on a subject intensely usually for a couple of mons
12:43 < kanzure> it's turning into http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Bioreactors but very slowly
12:43 < kanzure> procto: So do I.
12:43 < kanzure> procto: re: geeking out, check this stuff out:
12:43 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/thinking.html
12:43 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/intense_world_syndrome.html
12:43 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Sustained_attention
12:43 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/2008-05-13_hyperfocusing.html
12:43 < fenn> procto: 'larval stage'
12:43 < procto> hehe
12:44 < procto> i have a blog at http://mockingeye.com btw
12:44 < kanzure> procto: http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-05-23_autoscholar.png <-- that's what my machine mostly looks like
12:44  * kanzure boots up akregator (110k unread feed items)
12:44  * nsh chastises kanzure for 'off of'
12:44 < kanzure> nsh: hrm?
12:44 < procto> and my main project right now is http://djiyo.com
12:44 < nsh> "Minicolumns, genius and autism; the research being reported in the a-shade-of-grey blog article is from Casanova (m0casa02@louisville.edu) (Wp) (researcher), studying the minicolumnar basis of the hierarchical temporal memory (HTM) (cite Jeff Hawkings / On Intelligence) structure of the brain, based off of the organization of minicolumns into macrocolumns."
12:44 < nsh> maybe not your notes
12:45 < procto> there is nothing wrong with off of
12:45 < nsh> bad americanism though. v. bad
12:45 < nsh> this isn't up for debate.
12:45 < kanzure> nsh: they are
12:45 < kanzure> hrm
12:45 < kanzure> "based off of the"
12:45 < kanzure> that's bad?
12:45 < nsh> from please
12:45 < procto> it isn't
12:45 < nsh> or i will be unable to read :-)
12:45 < nsh> or 'on'
12:45 < kanzure> nsh: /me goes to edit
12:45 < procto> don't listen the prescriptivist brain washing :>
12:45 < nsh> some things just reflect badly
12:45 < fenn> 'based on' not 'based from'
12:46  * nsh nods: either from or on depending on the context
12:46 < kanzure> nsh, procto - if you read intense_world_syndrome.html, I suggest you refresh it
12:46 < procto> well, there are things which you may place in certain registers. the wrong register may be being used.
12:46 < kanzure> nsh: I've finally updated that page, I was stupid for not putting the intro at the top
12:46 < nsh> kanzure, cool. nice one
12:46 < kanzure> procto: So, one of my projects is a 'geeking out' system. See the sustained_attention wiki page I linked to above.
12:46 < procto> discrimintating en the basis of register choice is worse than the misselection
12:47 < nsh> procto: seriously though. it's in the same column as "could care less", and "rediculous"
12:47 < kanzure> The idea is to maintain a sustained attention / hyperfocusing / insightful session for as long as possible. Btw, sleep is allowed, just saying.
12:47 < kanzure> procto: re: djiyo, see http://heybryan.org/exp.html - fenn and I want to 'ground the semantic web' (in a sense)
12:47 < kanzure> it's not quite the same thing
12:47 < kanzure> but it's on the same plane of thought
12:48 < fenn> hmm djiyo seems more relevant to augmented reality than anything
12:48 < procto> nsh: that's fine. I just want you to realize that your ingrained dislike for registers, delegating them to basilect status may be unfair, and without true merit. the usual claim is that basilects somehow hinder efficient communication, which is false.
12:48 < procto> fenn: yes, it's an agumented reality system
12:48 < fenn> procto: wtf is a register?
12:49 < procto> just that most augmented reality projects seem to be mostly working on fancy goggles
12:49 < fenn> i want some fancy goggles
12:49 < procto> sorry, sometimes I forget to define my terms
12:49 < procto> goggles are nice, but expensive and hard
12:49 < fenn> slaved to a laptop
12:49 < procto> bluetooth headsets are already here and cheap
12:49 < procto> and also, socially acceptable
12:49 < kanzure> procto: Re: virtuality, virtual reality, other stuff like that: 
12:49 < kanzure> grr
12:49 < kanzure> hold on, formatting
12:49 < fenn> well, really i just want a small HUD based on a DLP chip
12:50 < fenn> glasses-mounted, not big VR goggles so much
12:50 < procto> fenn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_%28linguistics%29
12:51 < kanzure> `DZ: I would say that is exactly true. And more, I would say that the so-called virtual realities are misnamed: they should be called something like "simulated experiences." Because they aren't real, and can never be so, any more than a map can be the territory. 
12:51 < kanzure> And more, for the same reason that a map is necessarily less detailed than the territory that it describes, a virtual reality can only 
12:51 < kanzure> ever be a pale shadow of the real thing. Such constructs might prove amusing, or even useful and illuminating, but how could they ever take the place of the essential reality that they represent?`
12:51 < fenn> i think nsh's objection is to 'dumbing down' the language, which leads to 'dumbing down' the interaction and the ideas presented
12:52 < kanzure> there's certainly no lack of dense terminology and wordplay on my site :(
12:52 < procto> I agree. how does one define what is more dumb?
12:52 < fenn> if we started talking about eminem, it would be dumb
12:52 < kanzure> how do you define intelligence anyway? ;-)
12:52 < fenn> even if we used proper formal grammar
12:52 < kanzure> Intelligence doesn't exactly have a good track record yet.
12:52 < procto> most prescriptions in the english language today date from the 19th century where latin grammar was arbitrarily imposed on english
12:53 < nsh> ASD?
12:53 < kanzure> nsh: Autism spectrum disorders
12:53 < nsh> autistic spectrum disorders?
12:53 < nsh> ah
12:53 < kanzure> heh, the auties out on the internet did a press release in 2004
12:53 < kanzure> asking for "international immunity" and acknowledgement as a minority group
12:53 < procto> specifically as a form of social distinction
12:53 < fenn> kanzure: "virtual realities" are indeed real, they're electrical currents moving around in computer chips around the world
12:54 < kanzure> fenn: I just remembered that many people use 'intelligence' to mean something close to 'the ability to overcome genetic constraints'. 
12:54 < procto> formal grammars (distinguish from a fromal register) are unnecessary, and can hinder communication more than discregarding them
12:54 < kanzure> fenn: yes, but you're still relating them to the fundamental reality on the electrical circuits and so on
12:54 < kanzure> fenn: whereas escaping into a virtual reality and thinking it's totally real, is not a good idea, for you are ignoring so much of the implementation details
12:54 < nsh> did anyone read permutation city?
12:54 < kanzure> nsh: I had a friend read it for me
12:54 < fenn> an electrical current is just as real as sunshine and butterflies
12:54 < kanzure> a 'goon' :)
12:55  * nsh smiles
12:55 < kanzure> fenn: No, there's something else going on there that I think you're neglecting.
12:55 < fenn> many people escape into the wilderness, forgetting that the sun is a fusion reactor and a butterfly is an insect that's close to death
12:55 < kanzure> it's more that some people think they want 'virtual reality' to replace 'reality'
12:55 < procto> I'm not familira with al-l you mod els and nomenclature yet, but I strive towards making virtual "stuff" a facet of the world
12:56 < kanzure> fenn: and it's important to realize that 'virtual reality' can never fundamentally replace 'reality'
12:56 < nsh> one of the themes was the ontological independence of reality from its substrate
12:56 < nsh> like the independence of various phase transitions to their underlying mechanics in renormalisation group theory
12:56 < nsh> we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg of universality at the moment, i'd venture
12:56 < fenn> kanzure: is a sign real? are buildings real?
12:56 < kanzure> no matter how clueless you are, those nuclear reactors are still chugging away
12:57 < kanzure> fenn: I would argue that this is more about the person's brain; should they happen to know about signs, buildings and the wilderness, would they be intellectually honest with thinking that their escapism (virtual reality) truly fixes whatever issues are out there beyond that virtual reality?
12:57 < kanzure> procto: So, that merging of the digital and the physical is much of Gershenfeld's ideas.
12:57 < procto> kanzure: http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-05-23_autoscholar.png 404
12:57 < kanzure> procto: whereas we like to stay somewhat away from Kurzweil. (These two were paired side by side in the IEEE Spectrum article this month) http://heybryan.org/fernhout/ for some essays
12:57 < kanzure> procto: gimme a moment
12:57 < kanzure> bah, wrong month
12:57 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-03-23_autoscholar.png
12:58 < fenn> time flies when you're having fun :)
12:58 < procto> kanzure: did i say something kurzweilian?
12:58 < kanzure> procto: no
12:58 < kanzure> procto: hold on
12:58 < kanzure> procto: I'm just saying that you said something like Gershenfeld.
12:58 < fenn> making virtual "stuff" a facet of the world
12:59 < kanzure> And I pulled out a reference to Kurzweil since Gershenfeld and Kurzweil were paired as "opposite sides of the spectrum" in IEEE Spectrum.
12:59 < kanzure> And then I linked over to some F/OSS perspectives on Kurzweil.
12:59 < procto> ah, I see
12:59  * nsh needs to study glutamate more
12:59 < kanzure> nsh: indeed :)
12:59 < kanzure> so do I.
12:59 < kanzure> I want to read up on the glutamatergic system and the cholinergic system more.
12:59 < procto> kanzure: Ive read thoese
12:59 < kanzure> procto: /fernhout/ ?
13:00 -!- kanzure changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: Intro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXKbzbeipmI http://diybio.org/ http://openwetware.org/ | diy bio toolkit: http://biohack.sf.net/ | Automated societal knowledge (put it to work): http://heybryan.org/exp.html | Channel wiki: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ | F/OSS perspectives on Kurzweil: http://heybryan.org/fernhout/
13:00 < fenn> eegh
13:00 < fenn> is the topic long enough yet?
13:00 < kanzure> nope, maybe I can put all of my links in there
13:00 < kanzure> we need a way to tone it down
13:00 < fenn> all 20k of htem
13:00 < kanzure> yep
13:01  * nsh is lost in entoptic phenomena
13:02 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/topic.html
13:02 < kanzure> there
13:02 < procto> kanzure: yeah. I saw them linked on the diybio list
13:02 < kanzure> Huh?
13:02 < kanzure> oh, the fernhout essays
13:02 < kanzure> good
13:02 < kanzure> You like?
13:02 < procto> kanzure: are you in the area? i.e. attend the diybio meetings?
13:02 < kanzure> procto: No, I am in Austin, Texas.
13:03 < kanzure> Totally wrong part of the continent.
13:03 < procto> I like, but disagree with some parts of them
13:03 < kanzure> How so?
13:03 < kanzure> Oh, the microbes on virtual brains stuff
13:03 < kanzure> That was a bit out there. ;-)
13:03 < procto> hang on, I'll try to find an example of something I disagreed with
13:04 < kanzure> I think we need some essays like that, in general. It's good to be able to point out what I don't quite like about Kurzweil.
13:04 < fenn> structured argument
13:04 < kanzure> hrm?
13:05 < fenn> its one of the engelbart ideas that never made it into the www
13:05 < fenn> not yet at least
13:05 < kanzure> nsh: "One of the themes was .." <-- themes of what ?
13:05 < kanzure> I think we already implement that idea though
13:05 < kanzure> such as when we are trying to come up with a way to make an idea work / be technically feasible
13:05 < kanzure> feasability testing / validation (re: autospec in skdb)
13:05 < kanzure> or autogenix, whatever
13:06 < kanzure> I think that's autogenix. not skdb.
13:06 < fenn> layers of abstraction is an important engineering concept
13:07 < fenn> it reduces the amount of itnelligecne reqireud to understand something
13:07  * kanzure still doesn't know about this whole 'intelligence' thing
13:07  * fenn wonders if he's really typing this stuff
13:07 < nsh> kanzure, themes of permutation city
13:08 < nsh> they upload themselves into a virtual city, running on a virtual exponentially-replicating von-neuman processor
13:08 < procto> kanzure: in kurzweil1.html there is a strong argument based on work by Marshall Sahlins which i haven't read
13:08 < kanzure> nsh: So, I mentioned I had a goon read it. The goon reported that Egan was talking about 'virtual realities that would separate from their fundamental reality and exist forever and ever even if the microprocessor on which it was running was smashed'. I don't know if Egan would go that route, however.
13:09 < nsh> that's a rough charactature of the idea
13:09 < nsh> but essentially correct
13:09 < kanzure> if it's just an exponential von Neumann thing, then that's more reliable
13:09 < nsh> it's worth reading the book, imho
13:09 < fenn> does he use faster than light communications?
13:09 < nsh> or the short story 'dust' which was its basis
13:09  * kanzure has it on his shelf
13:10 < kanzure> and in my cache apparently
13:10 < kanzure> okay, I'm getting back into business mode
13:11 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/Greg%20Egan%20-%20Permutation City.pdf
13:11 < kanzure> :)
13:11 < fenn> missed one
13:11 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/Greg%20Egan%20-%20Permutation%20City.pdf
13:12 < kanzure> fenn: instead of the selections for stupid polymerases, why not just use a polymerase that has (1) a mutated template-reading-arm that accepts an unnatural nucleotide, (2) binding to a beta clamp on a DNA strand that is being made (since the template strand thinger is taken); (3) incorporation of biosynthetic pathways into the genome so that the unnatural nucleotides can be manufactured
13:12 < nsh> beta clamp?
13:12 < kanzure> now we'd need an inhibition/activation genetic regulatory network / circuit deal to control the production of those unnatural nucleotides
13:12 < fenn> its the polymerase subunit that attaches/slides along the DNA
13:13 < kanzure> synthetic circuits would be awesome for that, unfortunately those don't work in vivo
13:13 < procto> kanzure: but I disagree with the view of a hunter gatherer model as a more... idyllic way. there are some examples of agrarian, but non-specialived societies with central beurocracies. this is true only to a certain degree. yes, the farms were mostly self-sufficient, however, their surplus output is what allowed for the creation of cities, which is where the specialization occured.
13:13 < nsh> i see
13:13 < kanzure> procto: sure, I don't know how important the hunter-gatherer model is to his arguments
13:13 < kanzure> fenn: so maybe we'd need in vitro transcription to make the proteins? but this means implementing the majority of the cellular functionality in vitro
13:13 < kanzure> and that sounds absurd
13:13 < procto> kanzure: at the same time, I am in total agreement as far as kurzeil utter naivete in regards to "evolution"
13:14 < fenn> kanzure: you can just feed them unnatural nucleotides.. i dont know what they're used for in your experiment?
13:14 < kanzure> fenn: the unnatural nucleotides are used to signal the polymerases
13:14 < kanzure> so we still have four polymerases
13:14 < kanzure> but each one has a modified template arm thinger that matches only to each of the four types of different unnatural nucleotides
13:14 < nsh> remind me what the main objective is here, kanzure
13:14 < procto> intelligence is clearly not a convergent feature
13:14 < kanzure> nsh: in vitro DNA synthesizer, totally biological
13:15 < fenn> in-vivo hopefully
13:15 < kanzure> nsh: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/In_vitro_DNA_synthesizer
13:15 < nsh> dank
13:15 < kanzure> right
13:15 < kanzure> fenn: so, just feeding them the unnatural nucleotides sounds like it might require additional nonbiological components
13:16 < fenn> procto: the reprap project has the same problem regarding misunderstanding evolution
13:16 < fenn> kanzure: ok, i thought the unnatural nucleotides were somehow part of your selection protocol
13:16 < kanzure> maybe a genetic regulatory network ( http://heybryan.org/genetic-circuits.html at the bottom re: the oxytocin production circuit )
13:16 < kanzure> nope, no massive selections needed in this case :) hurray
13:17 < fenn> why not?
13:17 < kanzure> I mean, it might require selections for the unnatural nucleotide stuff, in a sense
13:17 < kanzure> well, it's just not the same level of infeasability I suppose
13:17 < kanzure> before, we were going to have to come up with a completely new polymerase
13:17 < kanzure> a retarded polymerase, one that had very little chance of selection because naturally it can't produce itself and so on
13:18 < kanzure> for procto or nsh or something -- a retarded polymerase that writes only A's, or only C's or only G's or only T's etc.
13:18 < fenn> you're sending the information with nucleotide concentration "smoke signals"? you change the idea every couple hours, hard to follow
13:18 < kanzure> fenn: yes
13:18 < nsh> kanzure, right
13:18 < kanzure> fenn: but remember, that's what we were thinking of before anyway
13:18 < kanzure> with signaling polymerase.
13:18 < fenn> no, not me
13:18 < kanzure> yeah we were
13:18  * nsh brb but will catchup buffer (if you don't steam ahead too fast)
13:18 < fenn> too slow
13:18 < kanzure> meh
13:18 < fenn> and unreliable
13:18 < kanzure> not unerliable
13:18 < kanzure> *unreliable
13:18 < fenn> you have to rely on stochastic processes like degradation
13:19 < kanzure> since nucleotides diffuse quickly, I figure we can also diffuse something to eat the nucleotides before our next round
13:19 < kanzure> but you're right about slowness
13:19 < fenn> it will go away with a half life, a logarithmic decay curve
13:20 < fenn> so 1/2^(delay) percent chance of getting it wrong
13:20 < procto> must be off now! I will be back
13:20 < fenn> something like that anyway
13:21 < fenn> nice to meet you procto
13:21 < nsh> peace procto
13:22  * nsh would suspect that protein inactivation by reactive oxygen species generation would not be easily reversible
13:23 < kanzure> my unnatural nucleotide smoke signals will not work because of the difficulty of acquiring the unnatural nucleotides
13:23 < kanzure> okay, so what if we had some other random idea
13:24 < kanzure> and it still required nucleotides
13:24 < kanzure> it's going to :) that's a given
13:24 < kanzure> these nucleotides are going to come from somewhere too
13:24 < kanzure> in the bioreactor case they are going to come from cell cultures that are producing them somehow, and we just kill the part of the culture to come up with our nucleotides
13:24 < kanzure> yes?
13:24  * nsh ponders
13:24 < kanzure> so that would be the same for unnatural nucleotides
13:24 < kanzure> however, if we are *using* the nucleotides as smoke signals
13:24 < nsh> can you explain what you mean by unnatural exactly?
13:24 < kanzure> we need to either (1) control their biosynthesis and production and so on, or (2) be able to separate them very, very accurately
13:25 < kanzure> nsh: there's some researchers that are able to augment the alphabet of life
13:25 < kanzure> by expanding it with unnatural nucleotides
13:25 < nsh> oh, i see
13:25 < kanzure> so, not A's, not C's, not T's, not G's. Other stuff. :)
13:25 < nsh> are they viable for long dna strands?
13:25 < kanzure> apparently :)
13:25 < fenn> nsh: a cell normally makes NTP's to use for energy distribution, synthesizing DNA. you cant change the concentrations if doing so kills the cell
13:26  * nsh nods
13:27 < nsh> i'm thinking
13:27 < kanzure> so how would we purify unnatural nucleotides, or even NTPs, in the case of the cell cultures producing them thanks to input foods (sugars, probably) ?
13:28 < kanzure> more to the point, how do we control the release of those nucleotides as smoke signals
13:28 < kanzure> in genetic regulatory networks we could have feedback systems and so on
13:28 < kanzure> which would be awesome
13:28 < kanzure> but at the moment I don't see how any of this would work in vivo
13:28 < kanzure> (the GRNs could regulate the production of those smoke signalers)
13:30  * nsh was entertaining the idea of a tandem reaction: polymerase constructing dna from NTPs and another enzyme degrading DNA to produce NTPs
13:30 < nsh> if you could have reciprocal feedback between these coupled reactions
13:30 < kanzure> hm?
13:30 < nsh> then you might be able to lock the logic such that nucleotides could only be added in a predetermined sequence
13:30 < kanzure> yeah, some way to control the rates of each
13:31 < nsh> right, so the polymerase can't do anymore until it gets some new NTPs
13:31 < nsh> and the degradation enzyme needs some DNA to degrade
13:31 < kanzure> yes, and the polymerases can't really move (beta clamp lock method -- just put something in its way, etc.), and the polymerases might not have motors, or something like that
13:31 < nsh> right
13:32 < kanzure> the degradation enzyme would be present in the "smash up a percentage of the cell culture" tank/pod/portion
13:32 < kanzure> and then we need a purification system (ugh)
13:32 < nsh> biggest problem then is converting the desired sequence into a system of logic gates made from these coupled reactions
13:32 < fenn> i really like the tagged protein idea
13:32 < fenn> for purification
13:33 < kanzure> purification of NTPs?
13:33 < kanzure> or just purification of everything else
13:33 < fenn> no, just everything else
13:33 < kanzure> hrm
13:33 < nsh> i remember reading some stuff about PCR computing that seemed able to make logic gates from PCR products
13:33 < fenn> its easy once you have a direct write DNA synthesizer :)
13:33 < kanzure> nsh: transcriptional switches, yeah
13:33 < fenn> that's kanzure's lab
13:34 < nsh> cross-pairing ring a bell?
13:34 < nsh> i think that was the term they used
13:34 < kanzure> not quite
13:35 < nsh> you have elsevier access atm?
13:35 < kanzure> yes
13:35  * kanzure has most everything access :)
13:35  * kanzure grins
13:35 < nsh> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VHX-4PKPH3T-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=ae21ce2ec1e3c774443ee7d5c10b7aaa
13:35 < nsh> you should set me up a proxy
13:35  * nsh annoyed to have to wait until lab to access articles
13:35 < kanzure> nsh: your lab doesn't have a proxy?
13:35 < kanzure> usually it's through the library's ezproxy system
13:35 < nsh> doesn't seem so
13:36 < nsh> i explored briefly to no avail and no-one seemed to have a clue
13:36  * nsh should push it some more
13:36 < kanzure> finland?
13:37 < nsh> university of tampere, finland
13:38 < kanzure> http://www.uta.fi/laitokset/kirjasto/english/nelli/remote.php
13:38 < kanzure> http://www.uta.fi/laitokset/kirjasto/english/nelli/remote.php
13:38 < kanzure> erm
13:39 < kanzure> http://www.nelliportaali.fi/V/9HYD5KUUF82PDFXVK7PJ6DMIFBM9LNU38LHCQQLRM97TGGAP22-10793?func=file&file_name=home
13:39 < kanzure> http://www.nelliportaali.fi/V/9HYD5KUUF82PDFXVK7PJ6DMIFBM9LNU38LHCQQLRM97TGGAP22-45380?func=file&file_name=home
13:39 < nsh> yeah, it has a database of journals
13:39 < nsh> but no proxy function that i could find
13:39 < kanzure> right ..
13:39 < kanzure> it's "remote access"
13:39 < kanzure> https://weblogin.uta.fi/
13:40  * nsh has tried :-)
13:41 < kanzure> I keep losing track of what problems I am thinking about.;
13:41 < kanzure> if we have cells that can do the biosynthesis of the nucleotides, and if we have a way to do the purification procedures, I think it's good
13:42 < nsh> heh, i got it working this time
13:42 < nsh> kanzure++ 
13:50 < kanzure> so far it seems like we'd need to manually move the purified nucleotides over to the in vitro synthesizer tank
13:50 < kanzure> actually, it could be in vivo since we don't need the transcriptional switches any more
13:50 < kanzure> but that's only if we can get the GRN to accept laser input
13:51 < kanzure> so the production of nucleotides would be within the cells, and somehow they would get to our polymerases and so on
13:51 < kanzure> but how would you control those cells and their production of each of the enzymes used to make the nucleotides and so on?
13:53 < kanzure> the project that I am working on in the lab is in vitro, but it is an attempt to make a system where by the frequency of laser input or some other input can be translated into kinetic changes
13:53  * nsh hates ingentaconnect
13:53 < kanzure> ingentaconnect doesn't do much to connect
13:53 < nsh> should be called ingentawithhold
13:54 < nsh> can you elaborate on kinetic changes?
13:54 < kanzure> one of the advantages of the massive number of computer viruses out there is that many people have written viruses to steal university library proxy login credentials
13:54  * nsh smiles
13:54 < kanzure> nsh: by that, specifically, I mean that the frequency of a laser shining could be translated into morris code in some readable format by the biological circuit
13:55 < nsh> morse?
13:55 < kanzure> moirs?
13:55 < kanzure> *moris?
13:55 < nsh> . . . - - - . . .  morse :-)
13:55 < kanzure> right
13:55 < kanzure> so that's binary
13:55  * nsh nods
13:56 < kanzure> so if the circuit involves transcriptional switches which logically dictate what actions happen next
13:56 < kanzure> then you're just flipping the switches
13:56 < nsh> right
13:56 < kanzure> we're working on a tiny component of it
13:56 < kanzure> namely the oscillator portion
13:57 < kanzure> I'm not convinced yet that the entire system is feasible
13:57 < nsh> is there a description of the project anywhere?
13:57 < kanzure> nsh: gimme your email address
13:57 < kanzure> actually
13:57 < kanzure> hold on
13:57 < nsh> ffr: lauri.love@gmail.com
13:57 < nsh> (for future reference)
13:58 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ellingtonia/ellingtonia/86-NJ820__04_14_2008_06_06_10_PM.pdf_[Q62jfc].pdf
13:58 < nsh> ty
13:59 < kanzure> pg 7 diagram
14:00 -!- Splicer [n=p@h87n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
14:00 < kanzure> Hey Splicer.
14:00 < Splicer> hi Kanzure
14:01  * nsh needs to start pushing document folding harder
14:01 < kanzure> ?
14:01 < nsh> for example, that pdf: if i just wanted a basic idea of what it is, i should only need a paragraph
14:02 < kanzure> sure
14:02 < kanzure> the abstract :)
14:02 < nsh> then if i wanted to get an overview of how it's going to be implemented, i could unfold that into there or four
14:02 < kanzure> yep
14:02 < nsh> then keep unfolding to the degree of detail i require
14:02 < kanzure> btw, I have an idea for how to do that
14:02 < kanzure> via catching the unused output of the human brain while writing sentences
14:02 < kanzure> and then having machines elaborate and incorporate that data so that grammar can be 'unfolded'
14:02 < kanzure> to some extent, at least.
14:02 < nsh> hmm
14:03 < nsh> how do you mean unused output?
14:03 < kanzure> when you are thinking about what to write, there are many more things to be said than what you actually do end up saying
14:03 < kanzure> this is the nature of an axon, sadly
14:03 < nsh> right
14:03 < kanzure> many inputs, only one output
14:03 < nsh> hmm
14:04 < kanzure> I don't even know what I was originally thinking of, to get the smoke signals with transcriptional switches ... it's not going to happen. You need to have enzymes. What more, you need to control the production of the nucleotides too.
14:05 < kanzure> if you're using some sort of frequency input, you need that 'phase lock system' to some extent
14:05  * nsh agrees
14:05 < kanzure> but then that requires the switches
14:05 < kanzure> well.
14:05 < kanzure> I guess we can have transcriptional switches bound to a metal plate upstream, and have them all communicate to figure out what the frequency input is saying
14:06 < nsh> hm
14:06 < kanzure> need to get a message downstream
14:06 < kanzure> where the cells are
14:09 < Splicer> on the hi-def MRI discussion yesterday, have you seen this(x-ray):http://www.jove.com/index/Details.stp?ID=737   
14:11 < nsh> 20.5 KeV is non-invasive
14:11  * nsh smiles
14:13 < Splicer> 0.7micrometer resolution
14:13 < nsh> 0.7 micrometer is pretty impressive resolution
14:13 < nsh> yeah
14:13 < Splicer> yeah
14:14 < nsh> you could probably lower that with software by some creative use of angles and displacements
14:16 < nsh> argh, it's eating me!
14:17  * nsh wonders what the scan-time is
14:17 < nsh> "Samples were measured with an energy of 20.5 keV. The radiographs were recorded with a cooled CCD (ESRF FReLoN camera) with a 14-bit dynamic range, 2048×2048 pixels and an effective pixel size of 0.7 µm. 1500 projections were recorded over the 180° sample rotation with an exposure time of 0.35 s for each projection. The detector-to-sample distance was 20 mm."
14:19 < kanzure> wasn't there something about genetic regulatory network logic gaes
14:19 < kanzure> *logic gates
14:19 < kanzure> aha, yes
14:20 < nsh> mm?
14:20 < kanzure> and it's my understanding that the original Elowitz ring oscillator was a GRN too
14:21 < kanzure> so that means that we can potentially do all of this in vivo
14:21 < kanzure> no transcriptional switches
14:21 < kanzure> now the trick is seeing about an implementation of that paper re: a phase-lock loop system, implemented in terms of a GRN
14:22 < kanzure> the frequency input still gets to me, I'm not sure how quite to do that in vitro nor in vivo
14:22  * nsh doesn't like it when a google query returns more PPT files than PDF
14:22 < nsh> it tells me: hype
14:22 < kanzure> what query?
14:23 < nsh> Elowitz ring oscillator digital logic
14:23 < nsh> (also, i don't have a ppt reader on this box, annoyingly)
14:24 < nsh> actually, probably less hype than pedagogical overviews
14:25 < nsh> http://perso.ens-lyon.fr/pierre.lescanne/ENSEIGNEMENT/GAMES_AND_LOGIC/Wolf_D_Motifs_modules_and_games_in_bacteria.pdf  looks interesting
14:25 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ellingtonia/genetic-circuits/Toggles and oscillators - new genetic circuit designs.pdf
14:25 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ellingtonia/genetic-circuits/Robust control in bacterial regulatory circuits.pdf
14:25 < kanzure> in fact,
14:25 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ellingtonia/genetic-circuits/
14:26 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ellingtonia/weiss/Towards in vivo digital circuits - protein-based - BioSPICE - Weiss - Tom Knight - dimacs99-evocomp.pdf 
14:26 < kanzure> Tom Knight hurray \o/
14:27 < kanzure> now I remember something sucking about GRNs
14:27 < kanzure> what was it?
14:28 < nsh> scaling?
14:28 < kanzure> nah
14:28 < kanzure> maybe something about protein engineering being needed in some cases
14:28 < kanzure> I'll ask the grad student when I go back to the lab
14:29 < kanzure> I wonder if I should be there today
14:29 < nsh> what's the time in austin?
14:30 < nsh> are you -4 UTC?
14:30 < kanzure> 1:30
14:30 < kanzure> we're GMT -6
14:30 < kanzure> "I don't believe in time zones any more. I'm done with that bullshit."
14:30 < kanzure> "Why?"
14:31 < kanzure> "Well, are you in my time zone?"
14:31 < kanzure> "No."
14:31 < kanzure> "And yet you're talking with me at the same time. Huh. Seems like a scam to me."
14:31  * nsh smiles
14:31 < nsh> circadian rhythms aren't a scam :-)
14:32 < kanzure> orly
14:32 < nsh> they're biological baggage
14:33 < nsh> and the problem is, we're not entirely sure what's in the baggage, and how useful it might be to us in the future
14:33 < nsh> so we have to lug it around for a while longer
14:35 -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@www.online.dn.ua] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
14:36  * nsh likes how this Tom Knight paper is (C) 0000 (Copyright holder)
14:40 < nsh> i'm going to take a break and ruminate
14:40 < nsh> catch you later
14:40 < kanzure> cya
14:41 < kanzure> http://elowitz.caltech.edu/
14:41 < kanzure> having yourname.caltech.edu is neat :)
14:45 < kanzure> ' logous phenomena at other levels of biological organization.                                   Synthetic                biology: One example of this approach is the Repressilator,                a synthetic oscillatory network constructed in the bacteria Escherichia                  coli (Elowitz &                  Leibler, 2000). The Repressilator is designed to cause oscillations               in the level of gene expression o
14:45 < kanzure> http://elowitz.caltech.edu/research.html
15:30 < Splicer> It's interesting that the swatch time never took off. I thought it was a good idea at the time.
15:30 < kanzure> ?
15:30 < Splicer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatch_Internet_Time
17:50 < kanzure> http://superkuh.ath.cx/
17:56 < kanzure> meh, maybe lasers won't be required
17:56 < kanzure> just use some proteins
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18:05 -!- ybit [n=h@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:35 -!- percent [n=percent@66.158.193.28] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:35 < kanzure> There we go.
18:35 < percent> Well, I'm here.
18:35 < kanzure> Where were we?
18:36 < percent> Dunno, something about interior decoration?
18:37 < percent> So what is this place?
18:37 < percent> Some backwater biohacker haven?
18:37 < kanzure> Yes. It's where I collect brains.
18:38 < percent> In jars or in heads?
18:38 < kanzure> Meh. Depends on how cooperative they are.
18:38 < percent> Splicer runs biopunk, yes?
18:38 < kanzure> Yes.
18:39 < percent> So what now? I can just ask random bio questions here?
18:39 < percent> Even stupid ones?
18:39 < kanzure> Sure, but I'd prefer it if you have a goal in mind or something. 
18:40 < percent> Let's cure cancer. 
18:40 < percent> Actually, hepatitis D is more interesting to me.
18:40 < percent> Name another virus that does genetic silencing in humans. 
18:41 < kanzure> Okay, so curing cancer.
18:41 < kanzure> What's so bad about cancer?
18:41 < kanzure> Specifically, to humans. Not in general.
18:42 < percent> Aside from uncontrolled cellular growth? Nothin'. 
18:42 < kanzure> Uh? Impairment of functionality.
18:42 < kanzure> That's a big one.
18:43 < percent> I was being sarcastic. 
18:43 < kanzure> My point is that the problem of cancer can be treated with the nanoparticle delivery of toxic agents via laser activation, it could be treated with more stringent controls on DNA and so on, but man. It's a bad problem.
18:43 < kanzure> So instead, why not just get rid of anything that fails.
18:44 < percent> I don't know much about DNA repair and failure.
18:46 < kanzure> Basically it all sucks.
18:46 < kanzure> The alternative is to get rid of those components. Let's replace them.
18:46 < kanzure> hrm, a neuronal patch clamp + neurogenesis + stem cell researcher in ##neuroscience just linked me to - http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/18/4/763 re http://heybryan.org/intense_world_syndrome.html
18:49 < kanzure> So, if it can go cancerous, it's not good. 
18:50 < kanzure> The main thing that we have to worry about is brain cancer, I think.
18:50 < kanzure> Since there's generally no solution to maintaining any sense of persistency pertaining to the brain, its structures, development, any tricks the tissues might know, and so on.
18:52 < Splicer> wasn't there some guy who was researching a way to boot up mithochondria in cancer cells... something about cancer bypassing mitochondria for energy and they were the ones who initiated apostosis. 
18:54 < Splicer> (nice to see you mr percent)
18:56 < kanzure> Splicer: You mean Aubrey?
18:57 < Splicer> Evangelos Michelakis
18:58 < Splicer> this guy: http://twit.tv/fib21
19:03 < percent> sorry, i had a phone call
19:03 < percent> Okay, I have a dumb question
19:04 < percent> Let's say we have a genetic cure for cancer, magical, right? How do we implement it?
19:05 < percent> And nice to meet you too, Splicer.
19:07 < percent> So, if cancer cells run only on glucose...are their mitochrondia broken because of this, or are broken mitochondria the cause of this? 
19:09 < kanzure> Screw the cells. They suck for being cancerous.
19:09 < kanzure> Backups, backups, backups.
19:10 < percent> why reinvent the wheel? the cells know they're cancerous, don't they? wouldn't they undergo apoptosis if they could?
19:10 < Splicer> i actually don't know how to patch something that would pass to the next generation
19:11 < percent> I was speaking more about a full human body. 
19:11 < percent> Or a mouse.
19:11 < percent> actually screw mice those things are mean
19:14 < Splicer> there are many things in this I don't know... but it the current idea seems to be that cancer shuts dom mithocondria on purpose to avoid apostosis... as opposed to the way it used to be seen.. that the metabolism was a byproduct oc the cancer.
19:15 < Splicer> I got into a discussion with a dr about this and she made me understand there was more to this...
19:16 < percent> So, even in bacteria, the modifications wouldn't last long?
19:17 < percent> And is that because of restriction enzymes? 
19:18 < Splicer> not sure how you mean
19:19 < percent> Let's say I have bacteria. I create an altered genetic profile for it, to make it glow or something equally novel. 
19:19 < Splicer> yeah.. the next generation will glow too
19:20 < percent> How exactly do I implement it? Wouldn't the DNA be destroyed by the bacteria's defense mechanisms?
19:20 < percent> like restriction enzymes?
19:20 < percent> I'm new at this, so forgive my dumb questions
19:20 < Splicer> me too
19:22 < Splicer> the bacteria hacking thing is hit/miss... the way I understand it the plasmids used to add the injected DNA puts it in random locations 
19:23 < Splicer> then the wanted bacteria are selected for.. and after that... they have that DNA and that's the DNA they copy forwards to
19:25 < percent> "Copy forward" = replicates to?
19:25 < kanzure> Anybody know Larry Christianse?
19:26 < Splicer> percent: yes, kanzure: no
19:29 < Splicer> monkeys have a cool retrovirus called PtERV... some monkeys eons ago were infected with it numerous times... so chimps have like 150 copies of it now, partially written over eachother. 
19:29 < percent> It says here that uracil "usually" takes the place of thyamine in in RNA.
19:29 < percent> Always or usually? 
19:29 < percent> *thymine
19:30 < Splicer> i think it always works the same way in the same organism.. but that organisms can be different
19:36 < percent> Let's say I want to make a sample of one and only one type of bacteria. How would I do that?
19:37 < kanzure> Hrm.
19:37 < kanzure> Safety procedures might be able to detail that. Purification can be difficult, from what I hear.
19:37 < kanzure> I think a good way to do it might be flamethrowers / flaming an entire chamber that you plan to use.
19:38 < percent> Biohacking involves FLAMETHROWERS?
19:38 < percent> best subculture ever
19:40 < percent> So I have a clean chamber, what then?
19:41 < Splicer> start with one bacteria maybe.. i don't know how much they spontaneously mutate
19:42 < percent> And how do I go about isolating one specific bacteria?
19:43 < kanzure> You usually don't. Most of the protocols out on the internet might help. Lots of people assume you just buy from some company that has something like nine 9's of purity.
19:44 < percent> Sounds expensive. 
19:44 < kanzure> Yes. That's why I'm building the damn bioreactor-kit-toolbox-thing.
19:44 < kanzure> Buy it once, let it self-replicate.
19:45 < percent> I bet they'd sue you for that.
19:45 < percent> Can you copyright bacteria?
19:45 < kanzure> Who the hell cares?
19:45 < kanzure> I mean, what are they going to do?
19:45 < kanzure> "ERROR! ILLEGAL LIFEFORM DETECTED."
19:45 < kanzure> Really?
19:46 < percent> Depending on who finds us.
19:46 < Splicer> but how important is the purity thing?... can't I just set plasmids to random collections of E Coli and see what sticks?
19:46 < percent> They'll either just kill you or sue you. Or not even pay attention. 
19:46 < percent> I should read more about plasmids. Is e. coli an important model organism? 
19:46 < kanzure> Yes.
19:47 < kanzure> And yeast.
19:47 < percent> E. coli is easy enough to find, no?
19:47 < kanzure> You shit them out.
19:47 < kanzure> Wait.
19:48 < kanzure> Yeah, okay. Yes, you shit them.
19:48 < percent> ..is there any less disgusting way of procuring samples?
19:48 < Splicer> yes
19:48 < kanzure> oh, many :)
19:49 < kanzure> http://www.ecolirep.umn.edu/ecoliisolation.shtml
19:49 < percent> I see PCR is involved
19:49 < percent> PCR is about the most important thing ever, is this true?
19:50 < kanzure> PCR?
19:50 < kanzure> I don't see it on that page.
19:50 < percent> rep-PCR
19:51 < kanzure> ?
19:51 < percent> Top of the page.
19:53 < Splicer> kanzure... i wrote something about gov supevision of biohacking today... it's been on my mind, could you just read it and say whay you think?
19:53 < Splicer> http://www.biopunk.org/thoughts-on-public-perception-and-politics-t39.html
19:53 < percent> I'd wanted to ask about that.
19:53 < percent> What will the public think of underground genetic engineering?
19:53 < Splicer> i'm gonna get shit now I think
19:54 < Splicer> they're gonna hate it
19:54 < kanzure> percent: http://synbiosafe.eu/forum/
19:54 < percent> We'll be demonized. 
19:54 < percent> Nothing we're not used to though, as hackers in general.
19:55 < percent> I, however, don't give a damn what the public thinks of science.
19:55 < kanzure> Yawn.
19:55 < kanzure> Anybody who sleeps with women is a biohacker.
19:55 < percent> 95% of them want a presidential debate on science. 100% of scientists want the politicians to shut up and not tell them what to do.
19:58 < kanzure> I posted.
19:58 < kanzure> http://www.biopunk.org/post111.html#p111
20:00 < Splicer> i agree... i thought you'd give me shit for that.. thanks
20:02 < Splicer> next topic
20:03 < kanzure> hm?
20:07 < Splicer> (the notion that some form of supervision probably has to be endured)
20:08 < kanzure> yes, I should have given you shit for that
20:08 < kanzure> :)
20:08 < kanzure> you're right
20:09 < Splicer> ;)
20:20 < kanzure> hehe
20:20 < kanzure> Tony said to me, "(2008-06-08 19:24:05) Tony: I'd suggest relabeling "singularity" before you look for serious money. 
20:20 < kanzure> What you are really talking about is breaking the one brain one lifespan limit to the growth of intelligence."
20:23 < Splicer> ?
20:24 < nsh> second line is still Tony's words?
20:24 < kanzure> yes
20:26 < Splicer> very transhuman
20:29 < kanzure> Maybe I can get him in here some time. 
20:29 < percent> Who's this tony?
20:29 < kanzure> I met him a few years ago on the net by randomly clicking through Wikipedia.
20:30 < kanzure> http://meme.com.au/ his page is not representative of what he's thinking about
20:30 < nsh> what's he thinking about?
20:32 < Splicer> not my kink
20:32 < percent> So you're all pretty much transhumanists?
20:32 < Splicer> i'm not
20:33 < kanzure> I don't think most everybody here likes labels all that much. I'd say that a significant number of ideas are strikingly similar.
20:33 < kanzure> nsh: still trying to get to the root of it all
20:34  * nsh is just transhuman
20:34 < nsh> , glib
20:34 < percent> Care to explain? 
20:36  * nsh suspects that he respects wolfram too much
20:36 < nsh> hmm?
20:37 < nsh> ben goertzel does a good job of explaining (some of the reasons) wolfram is an idiot^W^Wover-confident of his own importance
20:38 < kanzure> oh really?
20:38 < kanzure> can you link?
20:38 < kanzure> nsh: re: just transhuman, that's a good way to put it.
20:38 < kanzure> Wolfram has been known to be overly self-absorbed, and if Goertzel has a good way of saying it, :)
20:38  * kanzure knows Ben's son
20:38 < Splicer> I see myself as a biopunk, when I look at the world I see evolution and natural selection.
20:38 < kanzure> or at least one of them
20:39 < nsh> htttp://www.goertzel.org/dynapsyc/2002/WolframReview.htm and a few other pages on that site
20:42 < kanzure> thank you :)
20:43 < kanzure> '   Wolfram’s Principle of Computational Universality does contain a very deep insight, one going beyond standard universal computation theory, which is: Almost any dynamical system that doesn't lead to random or transparently fixed or oscillatory behavior, is likely to be a universal computer. '
20:43 < kanzure> heh
20:45 < nsh> ironically, that statement is itself a little misleading: such systems are only potential universal computers. actually implementing universal computation within such systems would require much stronger requirements
20:47 < nsh> really, wolfram showed that the complexity of ruleset required before computation can be embedded within a large enough parameter space is lower than was originally considered
20:48 < nsh> but control of parameters is not such a simple thing when you're not running a simulation
20:48 < nsh> and goertzel's arguments about efficiency are poignant and completely unaddressed by wolfram
20:48 < procto> I used to think #swhack would get dense at times, but it was well within easy grokking limits
20:49 < procto> it's nice to see the density can increase substantially
20:49 < kanzure> What's #swhack?
20:49 < Splicer> who's dense?
20:50 < procto> another freenode chan
20:50 < procto> density of information
20:50 < Splicer> thanks
21:04 < kanzure> I don't understand.
21:05  * nsh is not responsible, only culpable
21:05 < Splicer> ....swhack is a zoo
21:05 < kanzure> but really
21:05 < Splicer> hehehe
21:06 < nsh> #swhack is publically logged...
21:07 < Splicer> wow
21:07 < kanzure> http://swhack.com/ makes sense
21:07 < kanzure> but the channel doesn't
21:09 < nsh> a certain times, perhaps
21:09 < nsh> *at
21:10 < kanzure> it looks like the idea is to randomly generate stuff to prep the mind
21:10 < kanzure> but this is just Enki-2's xsublism
21:10 < kanzure> *xsublims
21:10 < nsh> oh?
21:12 < Splicer> that was one of your first questions 'are you all bots?'
21:13 < kanzure> heh :)
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21:20 < kanzure> So, nsh is a bot.
21:21 < nsh> how would you measure the complexity of mistaken detail.
21:22 < Splicer> i'm just a sexy girl
21:22 < kanzure> yep
21:25 < nsh> kanzure: Discordianism is a modern religion centered on the idea that chaos is as important as order.
21:26 < kanzure> Ah, so are these discords of the order of nonorder?
21:27 < Splicer> <fnord>
21:28 < nsh> the ratio order-in-disorder to disorder-in-order is itself amenable to reordering
21:28 < Splicer> it's divisible by 5 is it not?
21:29 < nsh> would have to be, i assume
21:29 < Splicer> i liked RAW
21:30 < kanzure> Keep the bullshit in there.
21:30 < kanzure> Not in here.
21:31 < nsh> Robert Anton Wilson, wrote the illuminatus trilogy and other reasonably popular fiction, as well as some pretty good nonfiction
21:31 < nsh> Prometheus Rising probably the most noted, if not notable
21:48 < wrldpc> I read Illuminatus!
21:48 < wrldpc> Some novel ideas ... dolphin allies and so on ... private submarines.
21:48 < wrldpc> Don't know who had the telepathic dolphin idea first, RAW or Gibson.
21:50 < Splicer> RAW was ironic
21:50 < nsh> Gregory Bateson
21:51 < nsh> (he studied dolphin communication and worked with John C. Lilly on a project to teach dolpins human language)
21:52 < nsh> the real experiment would be trying to teach humans dolphin language
21:57 < Splicer> Wilson was my entry to the skeptics
21:59 < nsh> he certainly hid the fact that he was a ranking member of the freemasons incredibly well
22:00 < Splicer> was he? hehehe
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22:01 < Splicer> It's not so easy to know with him. 
22:15 -!- Vedestin [n=Vedestin@d122-109-35-58.sbr3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:22 < Splicer> nite
22:22 -!- Splicer [n=p@h87n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit []
22:48 < percent> wait, who's talking about Robert Anton Wilson
22:48 < percent> I'm currently reading Schroedinger's Cat
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23:17 < wrldpc> nice
23:17 < wrldpc> haven't read that yet
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23:37 < kanzure> Is it possible to screw up cooking raman noodles?
23:51 < Vedestin> yeah
23:51 < Vedestin> you can boil them dry
23:51 < Vedestin> and burn them