--- Day changed Thu Jun 12 2008
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03:32 < faceface> percent_: are you in #bioinformatics?
03:33 < faceface>  /msg kanzure "what does that change?" (re yesterdays convo)
03:33 < percent_> no sir
03:34 < faceface> dam... where is kanzure
03:34 < percent_> went to bed.
03:34 < faceface> percent_: "talk about bioinformatics software" <- the place to be
03:34 < faceface> percent_: he said in 'bioinformatics' that he would be in the marcotte lab tomorrow... is that when he gets up?
03:35 < percent_> Dunno, I haven't stalked him yet
03:35 < faceface> hrm... 
03:37 < faceface> if he comes in can you ask him to check his memos?
03:37 < faceface> I did ...  /ms send kanzure "kanzure -> I'm going to be showing up in the Marcotte lab tomorrow" ... Say hello to Wan Kim Que for me!
03:43 < percent_> you could just call him
03:55 < faceface> percent_: what time does he get up?
03:55 < percent_> I've no idea.
03:55 < percent_> You appear to know him IRL.
03:55 < faceface> no
03:55 < faceface> only ICL
03:56 < percent_> icl?
03:56 < Vedestin> in computer life?
03:57 < faceface> yeah
03:57 < faceface> where to ask questions about ooffice writer?
03:58 < percent_> i'm going to bed now
03:58 < percent_> because i am tired
03:58 < percent_> genetically.
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03:59 < faceface> l8r
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05:15 < nsh> http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v26/n6/abs/nbt1405.html
05:15 < nsh> title: Rapid genome sequencing with short universal tiling probes
06:16 < faceface> nsh: cool
06:17 < faceface> dang... I is looking for 'whole genome assembly from "millions of [short] shotgun fragments"'
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10:03 < kanzure> Grumble grumble.
10:04 < kanzure> I'm getting requests to improve the exp.html page, but nobody has any specific idea on /how/ exactly to go about doing that.
10:05 < kanzure> There are many introductions into the general ideaspaces and many general ideas that have to be applied; the most general idea I can think of is to present some puzzle pieces (git, wikis, repositories, standards, etc.) as a method to achieve some of the goals of the 'ideals' of do-it-yourself manufacturing, of open hardware, charity, post-scarcity, and singularity topics. 
10:06 < kanzure> However, those projects aren't well defined really ('manufacturing by whoever wants to' is a vague concept); so am I going to have to suggest a way to deploy the infastructure necessary for distributed, parallel, peer-to-peer manufacturing+computation ? i.e., the concepts of resource diffusion paths/nets or something
10:10 < kanzure> http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/06/jason-warns-of.html?cid=118557472#comment-118557472
10:11 < kanzure> Perhaps I can take the approach of an engineer/scientist/researcher or i.e., a thinking person, and ask whether or not it makes sense to offload the majority of life-sustaining processes to other entities and so on, and thereby restricting your overall amount of 'freedom'. Should I play the freedom card?
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13:49 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: Intro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXKbzbeipmI http://diybio.org/ http://openwetware.org/ | diy bio toolkit: http://biohack.sf.net/ | Automated societal knowledge (put it to work): http://heybryan.org/exp.html | Channel wiki: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ | F/OSS perspectives on Kurzweil: http://heybryan.org/fernhout/
13:49 -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Sun Jun  8 13:00:15 2008]
13:49 [Users #hplusroadmap]
13:49 [ fenn   ] [ nsh     ] [ procto] [ ybit] 
13:49 [ kanzure] [ Phreedom] [ wrldpc] 
13:49 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 7 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 7 normal]
13:50 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008
13:50 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 34 secs
13:50 < fenn> yes, you need to explain the concept of freedom through independence, since most people just dont get it
13:50 < fenn> here's a step-by-step solution to improving your writing
13:51 < fenn> 1) move all links to footnotes, and expect nobody to read any of the footnotes. explain in the prose what the referenced material is about in one or two sentences.
13:52 < fenn> 2) explain "why" you're trying to do before "what"
13:55 < fenn> 3) build a vision by telling a story about how a person would live there
13:59 < fenn> 4) paragraphs should be under 5 sentences, less if the sentences are long. you should use section headings to group larger chunks of text
14:44 < kanzure> I think most people are asking for #3 -- and that's *hard* since day-to-day decisions are decided by you know, people
14:44 < kanzure> 'how people would live there' (as if it's a location?)
15:18 < fenn> yep it's a location just as much as #hplusroadmap is
15:27 < fenn> more so even, since there's "stuff" to play with
15:32 < procto> kanzure: the metanexus article, as with the fernhout (farnhout?) letters to kurzweil there is an assumption of some sort "capitalist ideology" that those being argued against hold
15:32 < procto> that's a hand wave if I ever saw one
15:32 < procto> still reading the article
15:32 < procto> that just jumped at me
15:55 < kanzure> fenn: but then you get into the 'suggestions for a micronation' stuff
15:55 < kanzure> fenn: I fully expect to be able to run SKDB within our current locations, given some shed space or something
15:55 < kanzure> procto: yes, it's Fernhout
15:56 < kanzure> procto: Fernhout didn't hold the capitalistic ideology
15:56 < kanzure> procto: And it's pretty clear, I think, that Kurzweil is coming from the capitalist perspective.
15:58 < fenn> heh no i mean as a virtual location, not a shed
15:58 < kanzure> http://biogang.wikispaces.com/
15:58 < kanzure> oh
15:59 < kanzure> you were sounding kinda micronation on me
15:59 < kanzure> which isn't bad, but it's also harder to sell :(
15:59 < fenn> an order of magnitude harder sell
15:59 < kanzure> hrm, BioGang is on GitHub? 
15:59 < kanzure> '
16:00 < kanzure> It just dawned on me that startups are obsolete. Sustainable, distributed bursty work is the future.'
16:00 < fenn> i just mean day to day operations joe user will have to perform to get his work done, and how it affects other people he's working with
16:01 < kanzure> hrm, I hope BioGang has an IRC channel
16:02 < procto> kanzure: I meant the opposite. that is, that at least the initial thrust of the argument is that a prior a "capitalist ideology" is wrong, and merely ascribing this to the idea your are attacking is serving to advance your argument.
16:02 < procto> you are*
16:02 < procto> this isn't a value judgement on my part
16:03 < procto> but rather, I am perplexed as to why they do this
16:03 < kanzure> I don't understand. The author is the one arguing strawman re: capitalistic ideology, which is *probably* stemming from Kurzweil/WTA territory.
16:03 < procto> right
16:03 < procto> that's what I mean
16:03 < procto> that "capitalist ideology" is the strawman
16:04 < procto> and it's used as a relatively strongly-knit bundle of ideas, when in fact it isn't
16:04 < kanzure> right
16:04 < procto> I was just saying that this isn't the first time I've seen that
16:04 < kanzure> Ah, perhaps I can present a system that is in fact, truly, quantified
16:04 < kanzure> http://openwetware.org/wiki/OpenWetWare:Steering_committee/Town_Hall_Meeting/2008/06/12
16:05 < procto> and that it is assumed that transhumanists would be capitalists (whatever that term, coined by marx, means) and that this undermines the validity of their ideas
16:06 < kanzure> procto: Well, in truth
16:06 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism
16:06 < kanzure> Read the first few sentences very carefully.
16:06 < kanzure> Now realize that *that* is the intro that the majority of people are getting.
16:06 < procto> sort of like starting a discussion with "the person I'm arguing against is mildly retarded, but I'll humor them and here are how I disagree with them..."
16:08 < procto> is*
16:08 < procto> that doesn't excuse inadequate arguments :>
16:10 < kanzure> Of course. But it's a source of confusion that might be worth fixing ... eventually.
16:12 < procto> people often seem to come to a conclusion such as "so... you're a libertarian who wants to put a computer in your brain?"
16:13 < procto> and would produce arguments from that starting point
16:13 < procto> which in the longer term may be a large obstacle to acceptance
16:15 < procto> when the tar brush of "the republican party, libertarians, and big business" will be trotted out by the left, much like fernhout has done, it will be difficult to overcome. (Much as claims of communism and socialism will come from the right, but it seems to me that we are now more temporally removed from the points of reference for that, and that there is a lesser visceral negative reaction to those already)
16:19 < fenn> does wikipedia have a less sucky diff viewer?
16:19 < fenn> so i dont have to click like 50 times to get a full history of the page
16:23 < kanzure> bleh, can't even get a good intro for a new_exp.html going
16:23 < kanzure> there are many possible approaches to this subject
16:23 < kanzure> I'm thinking of taking the 'intellectually honest' approach
16:23 < kanzure> i.e., 'honestly: this can be done in a better way'
16:24  * fenn edited one words on wikipedia/transhumanism.. we'll see how long it lasts
16:24 < fenn> word*
16:25 < kanzure> what word?
16:26 < kanzure> ah
16:30 < procto> kanzure: I recommend making a new diagram, because I honestly have 0 clue as to what it means :>
16:30 < kanzure> Yes, but the first written sentence.
16:30 < kanzure> A new diagram could be made, sure.
16:31 < procto> pictures are useful :>
16:31 < fenn> the diagram is almost completely irrelevant
16:31 < kanzure> I honestly don't know where to begin
16:31 < kanzure> do I begin at open source?
16:31 < kanzure> at the idea of being reasonable and honest about the state of the current systems?
16:32 < kanzure> at the idea of social/civilizational debugging?
16:32 < fenn> compare/contrast where we are vs where we want to be
16:32 < procto> kanzure: are you related to forrest bishop?
16:32 < kanzure> procto: Nope.
16:33 < kanzure> Well.
16:33 < kanzure> I've only traced my ancestry back 16 generations. 
16:33 < kanzure> And I didn't trace Forrest's ... so. Maybe?
16:33 < procto> haha
16:33 < procto> a no is good enough for me
16:35 < kanzure> fenn: and where do we want to be? That's going to be hard to describe without making it sound like a utopia.
16:35 < kanzure> "I had to buy a tooth brush today. This sucks. Here's how it should be."
16:36 < fenn> yes that's a good start
16:36 < procto> recommendation: pretend you are talking to a professor of literature
16:37 < procto> I test my concepts out by explaining them to my english b.a. girlfriend to see if they pass explanatory muster
16:38 < kanzure> fenn: a toothbrush?
16:38 < kanzure> I mean, most people are just going to read this and say "just grow some balls and shell out the cash"
16:39 < fenn> that's a valid argument under a certain set of assumptions, so you need to identify the assumptions relevant to "just buying" a toothbrush
16:39 < fenn> and then blast them into slimy gore
16:40 < fenn> another way to do it is to pick a main character that lives in a world where those assumptions are not true
16:42 < kanzure> hrm, blasting them to gore would be interesting
16:42 < kanzure> but I might sound like an angry old man without a toothbrush :)
16:43  * kanzure needs to pick a better product
16:43 < kanzure> maybe a computer?
16:43 < kanzure> that can relate to a lot of technical support stuff
16:43 < fenn> no, people hate computers anyway
16:43 < fenn> think "minimal complexity to demonstrate the concept"
16:44 < kanzure> agriculture tech?
16:44 < kanzure> has nice tie-ins to the bioreactor stuff
16:45 < procto> I've read the exp page
16:45 < procto> and I'm still rather fuzzy
16:45 < procto> can you describe it to me in 3 sentences or less?
16:45 < fenn> might be hard to convince you need all these fancy computer technologies just to grow plants
16:45 < procto> it can be full of terms you don't define
16:45 < procto> I just want to get a feel of the ideas encapsulated
16:46 < procto> fenn: I should print cards with borlaug's face on them, so when someone starts telling me how bad GMOs are, I can just hand them one and walk away
16:47 < kanzure> open repository project geared towards both digital and physical computation+manufacturing ultimately a design strategy for making a self-replicating design of a machine, but useful for a hell of a lot of other reasons in the mean time
16:48 < fenn> procto: "GMO" is just too broad a label to say anything about
16:48 < procto> fenn: well *I* know that. but someone who's spouting about how bad they are doesn't.
16:48 < procto> kanzure: so, self-replicating machinery to alleviate issues of scarcity?
16:49 < procto> able to be produced in a decentralized distributed manner by humans?
16:49 < procto> with power sources being what? provided or discovered?
16:49 < fenn> "both digital and physical computation+manufacturing" can be shortened to just digital manufacturing
16:50 < fenn> maybe you mean amorphous computing?
16:51 < fenn> procto: power sources are the same as we already have, you can build a machine to take advantage of a local energy gradient
16:51 < procto> what I mean is, is power still "centralized" or is each machine in charge of finding and connecting to one?
16:53 < fenn> "it depends"
16:53 < procto> I see
16:53 < fenn> decentralized power is a lot simpler because it scales the same as the replicator
16:55 < fenn> kanzure: if you write a compelling article i'll draw some pictures for it
17:07 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: Intro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXKbzbeipmI http://diybio.org/ http://openwetware.org/ | diy bio toolkit: http://biohack.sf.net/ | Automated societal knowledge (put it to work): http://heybryan.org/exp.html | Channel wiki: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ | F/OSS perspectives on Kurzweil: http://heybryan.org/fernhout/
17:07 -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Sun Jun  8 13:00:15 2008]
17:11 < fenn> i need an air-hockey office chair
17:12 < fenn> instead of just leather, its inflated and has thousands of tiny holes in the fabric
17:27 < kanzure> procto: No, 'issues of scarcity' isn't the point all that much. 
17:27 < kanzure> it'd be nice
17:28 < kanzure> and it's a result it seems.
17:28 < kanzure> but the main point is the self-replicator design itself, and manufacturing
17:28 < kanzure> technically since the galaxies are finite, there will always be this notion of scarcithy
17:28 < kanzure> *scarcity
17:28 < kanzure> but frankly this is currently ridiculous
17:38 < procto> so what's the goal theat this is means for?
17:42 < kanzure> self-replicator
17:43 < kanzure> (that also has other functionality besides just spitting out a copy of itself, i.e. programmable)
17:47 < kanzure> but again, those possibilities also can be addressed
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17:47 < kanzure> and although there's a very specific goal, it's not something that requires everybody be bolted to the floor working on very specific steps
17:48 < kanzure> cis-action: Do you know about 'biogang' ?
17:51 < procto> I mean, what are the positive things that a self-replicator will bring about?
17:52 < procto> or is that the goal itself?
17:52 < procto> with no specific purpose?
17:53 < kanzure> Well, supposedly, if you are able to work with any of the materials involved in the making of that machine, then you can use that machine to also make similar objects of a different sort. 
17:53 < kanzure> But on the other hand I'd be ok if it ends up being impossible since we'd have lots of manufacturing capacity added about
17:54 < kanzure> I'm pretty sure it's not impossible :)
17:54 < kanzure> given that I am a self-replicating machine :)
18:00 < fenn> i think a self replicator is a means to a goal
18:01 < fenn> but it gets into icky philosophy stuff that has been argued for millenia and never reached any conclusions
18:02 < fenn> 'freedom' is about as much as i'm willing to articulate
18:09 < fenn> kanzure: any thoughts on the possibility of a second-life like layer for social interaction between people and skdb projects?
18:10 < kanzure> To what extent?
18:11 < fenn> i've got idea stuck in my head where a village is planning a new barn or whatever, and they can see the design progressing in augmented reality as it progresses
18:11 < kanzure> modeling and so on?
18:11 < kanzure> hrm
18:11 < kanzure> yeah, sure, why not
18:11 < fenn> but also simulation so you can play with ideas
18:11 < kanzure> but I wouldn't emphasize it much
18:11 < kanzure> gets tangled up with way, way too many other things
18:11 < kanzure> like "oh, so it's a simulation project!"
18:11 < kanzure> "no, not really"
18:12 < fenn> but it is, sorta
18:13 < kanzure> well, yes
18:13 < fenn> i'd love to just be able to 'watch it go'
18:13 < fenn> since skdb defines the relationships between objects, you could have many disparate simulation packages running at once, interacting
18:14 < fenn> possibly on different computers
18:14 < fenn> it doesnt have to be 100% accurate, just plausible
18:14 < kanzure> so, has anybody had a drive on public transportation?
18:14 < kanzure> I'm wondering where the pickup stop is
18:14 < fenn> the bus stop?
18:14 < kanzure> yes, but it can't be the same as the drop off stop
18:14 < fenn> why not?
18:15 < kanzure> wrong side of the road
18:15 < fenn> look for a sign with the bus logo on it
18:15 < kanzure> :)
18:15 < kanzure> I don't understand the requested stop signaling system.
18:16 < kanzure> aren't they supposed to stop at the stops anyway?
18:16 < fenn> dunno, i've never heard of a requested stop signaling system
18:16 < kanzure> think of a train
18:16 < kanzure> well, at least the ones in the movies
18:16  * fenn loads train.skdb
18:16 < kanzure> they pull the strand, emergency brakes kick in
18:17 < kanzure> btw, we still have to decide if we want <objects>.skdb or just <procs.skdb> and then some other way to implement them or something
18:17 < kanzure> it's no biggie
18:17 < kanzure> oh, it's object oriented
18:17 < kanzure> nevermind
18:17 < kanzure> and then there can be methods inside
18:17 < kanzure> <fire>.skdb ;-)
18:17  * kanzure goes
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18:42 < wrldpc> I'm going to the meeting.  I'll try and record it but my camcorder is being weird.
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21:28 < kanzure> fenn: It'd be nice if I could be completely informal about it.
21:39 < procto> #diybio is now go!
21:39  * procto is at the meeting
21:40 < kanzure> Why isn't there anyone in #diybio?
21:40 < kanzure> Also, why isn't anybody using the git repo? :(
21:40 < procto> because I just created in
21:40 < procto> I'm there
21:41 < kanzure> Why not anyone else?
21:41 < procto> because I just created it, and no one else is on computers
21:51 < kanzure> Isn't it over by now?
21:51 < kanzure> 7 to 9, yes?
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22:14 < kanzure> fenn: I'm thinking of making it in the form of an informal interview. This way there's somebody actually talking with somebody else, in a legitimate way.
22:14 < kanzure> fenn: It also makes it personal. The idea is personal anyway, right? It's about people and the engineers, even if techies would rather look away from people.
22:14 < kanzure> Afterwards I'll throw up some concise statements selected from it.
22:16 < kanzure> So earlier today I thought I had accidentally overdosed on my morning medication. I was feeling very, peculiar. However, now that the medication has had time to get out of my system, and I'm still feeling the same way, I'm starting to wonder what's going on. At first I described it as if there's an apple in my throat. But really it's like it's in the back of my throat.
22:16 < kanzure> I seem to be able to do controlled hyperactivity. I'm not inattentive, in fact just the opposite.
22:16 < fenn> allergic reaction to something
22:17 < kanzure> Nah, it's coupled with some psychological effects. I am very much "in the zone".
22:17 < fenn> carry on, then
22:18 < fenn> um, is someone actually interviewing you?
22:18 < fenn> or is it like, kanzure's left brain interviewing his right brain
22:18 < kanzure> :)
22:18 < kanzure> Well, as it turns out, R. U. Sirius might have a goon
22:18 < kanzure> that could interview me.
22:19 < kanzure> This way, I don't have to present a coherent view all at once.
22:19 < kanzure> I can take it at strides and show multiple entry-paths into the same core concept.
22:19 < kanzure> i.e., "What about people that need to provide for families?"
22:19 < kanzure> or "But don't companies own this technology?"
22:21 < fenn> let me know if diybio progresses beyond the squabbling stage
22:22 < kanzure> no kidding :(
22:30 < Splicer> are they really squabbling?
22:31 < kanzure> Splicer: I think he refers to the territorialism.
22:31 < kanzure> Also, the ethics stuff.
22:32 < Splicer> i think they kinda have to adress that.. they are academia most of them... it's a good thing someone does... they put their necks out.. good thing
22:34 < kanzure> uh?
22:34 < kanzure> You don't get it. No matter how 'ethical' you might be, ebola will still kill you.
22:35 < Splicer> the ethics stuff is not for us.. it's to keep people calm
22:36 < Splicer> politics
22:38 < kanzure> Uh?
22:38 < kanzure> Who cares?
22:40 < Splicer> The way they present it is the only way bioDIY can be persented to the general public. They see academics talking about saftey and ethics and being proactive... 
22:40 < kanzure> What?
22:41 < kanzure> (1) What is "bioDIY" and why isn't it "diybio" ?
22:41 < kanzure> (2) The general public doesn't need a presentation. They are walking, talking, self-replicating machines.
22:41 < kanzure> (3) Safety and ethics are out the window on this one. There is no safety. This is why you get sick.
22:41 < Splicer> cause i miswrite it all the time and it had more hits on google last month
22:43 < Splicer> you miss the point.. the safteytalk is not supposed to be for out consumtion.. it's for the general public
22:44 < kanzure> Sounds like strawman to me.
22:45 < Splicer> a paranoid general public is a force to recon with 
22:45 < kanzure> The more you act like they have something to be paranoid about, the more paranoid they will probably get.
22:46 < kanzure> The whole project ends up *helping* them.
22:46 < kanzure> So what the hell's the problem?
22:46 < Splicer> you're wrong, they know exactly what you know but have thought ahead one step.
22:47 < kanzure> no they haven't
22:47 < kanzure> trust me :)
22:47 -!- freer [n=freer@209-20-74-204.slicehost.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:47 < kanzure> Hey freer. In here we're about the biohacking projects, some DIY stuffs, manufacturing, etc. :)
22:47 < kanzure> check the /topic
22:47 < freer> cool, thanks
22:50 < Splicer> about 20 years ago there was a general who took power in poland...Jaruzelski, he was a dictator and looked the part, imposed martial law, got people killed.. stuff like that. 
22:50 < Splicer> He was easily one of the most hated guys in europe...
22:51 < kanzure> Who says anything about nation-states being useful ?
22:51 < Splicer> Then the soviet union fell... and he organized elections and left power immediately...
22:52 < Splicer> later .. he eaplains.. I had to do this.. if I hadn't done it the russinas would have occupied the country...
22:52 < Splicer> and he was right
22:53 < Splicer> it's a question of the lesser evil... politics
22:53 < kanzure> No, you are wrong.
22:54 < kanzure> Are you brainwashed?
22:54 < kanzure> I mean, what country do you live in?
22:54 < kanzure> Was it Sweden?
22:54 < Splicer> yes
22:54 < Splicer> this saftey thing.. why is it even so annoying to you?
22:54 < kanzure> Because it's totally bullshit. Focus on it from the correct point of view.
22:55 < kanzure> Safety is thermodynamically impossible, give it up already.
22:55 < Splicer> yes... but i'm trying to tell you tah has nothing to do with the issue
22:55 < kanzure> Yes it does, it has everything to do with the issue.
22:55 < kanzure> Do you want to live forever ?
22:55 < wrldpc> yyyyyyo
22:56 < wrldpc> I want to live forever.
22:56  * kanzure points out that 'immortality' isn't necessarily the goal, but it's a good question to ask in a time like that. ;-)
22:56 < wrldpc> I am living forever.
22:56 < wrldpc> Safety first.
22:57 < kanzure> I mean, if you're serious about making sure the systems are actually functioning correctly, you need to move past the security nonsense and into the actual design strategies. You need to consider multiple redundancy, backups, good system design principles (i.e., removing single points of failure, like a single human body, etc.).
22:57 < wrldpc> yeh
22:57 < wrldpc> sacrifice
22:57 < Splicer> man... you miss the point
22:57 < kanzure> No, no sacrifice.
22:57 < kanzure> Splicer: *You* miss the point. :(
22:57 < wrldpc> you also want a healthy body though.
22:57 < kanzure> wrldpc: Sure.
22:57 -!- ybit [n=h@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:58 < wrldpc> DIY Bio was great man.  Your legend grows!!
22:58 < wrldpc> :)
22:58 < kanzure> wrldpc: How so?
22:58 < Splicer> I'm telling you again.. yeah there is no total saftey, I never said there was.. Noone believes there is.. that's not why they are stressing it
22:58 < kanzure> procto, did you meet wrldpc there?
22:58 < wrldpc> Healthily.
22:58 < wrldpc> procto are you Mike?
22:58 < wrldpc> Mac?
22:58 < kanzure> Splicer: No, they are stressing it because other people keep stressing it. Give them the alternative that we suggest in here. That's the whole point.
22:58 < kanzure> wrldpc: Mac is cis-action.
22:59 < wrldpc> Yo the Boston Transhumanist meeting is on the 15th I think.
22:59 < kanzure> Some good that does me. :(
22:59 < kanzure> <-- wrong part of the continent.
22:59 < wrldpc> 19th
22:59 < wrldpc> heh
22:59 < Splicer> Kanzure: you think you can argue with people.. you can't half of the inhabitants in the US believe in creationism
22:59 < wrldpc> you'll get here.
22:59 < kanzure> Splicer: That doesn't matter though.
22:59 < wrldpc> Splicer if you can fix the world then do it.
22:59 < kanzure> Splicer: Their arguments don't change the nature of reality.
23:00 < kanzure> Splicer: Verbal argumentation doesn't change the status of AIDS victims, for example.
23:00 < Splicer> kanzure: no.. but it's an example.. people as a group can only understand simple concepts...
23:00 < wrldpc> Are you guys arguing from some sort of objective truth or some kind of superior subjective interpretation?
23:00 < wrldpc> women and men need each other to survive.
23:00 < wrldpc> and I mean that in every way.
23:00 < Splicer> wrldpc: ;)
23:01 < wrldpc> heh
23:01 < kanzure> wrldpc: Basically Splicer is arguing that 'ethics are necessary', and we're trying to point out that it's just bullshit, and we need to address the actual systemic issues.
23:01 < wrldpc> Mm.
23:01 < Splicer> kanzure... for the fourth time.. that's not what i'm saying
23:01 < wrldpc> Superior ethics naturally intertwine and are veracified by the technica I think.  The physics.
23:01 < kanzure> Splicer: "you miss the point.. the safteytalk is not supposed to be for out consumtion.. it's for the general public"
23:02 < kanzure> Splicer: "The way they present it is the only way bioDIY can be persented to the general public. They see academics talking about saftey and ethics and being proactive... "
23:02 < Splicer> yeah... "talk about ethic and saftey is necessary" .. it keeps the drones calm
23:02 < kanzure> ...
23:03 < kanzure> What are drones?
23:03 < Splicer> the 50+% cretionists for instance
23:03 < kanzure> Who cares about them?
23:03 < kanzure> I mean, I'll help them out if I can, I guess.
23:03 < kanzure> But I really have other things to be doing.
23:04 < wrldpc> Aren't all humans unified by virtue of their coincident existence?
23:04 < ybit> oi kanzure, i saw your message when i woke this afternoon around 5pm :P i'll get to reading your article just as soon as my internet is fixed, but it looks interesting :)
23:04 < kanzure> My article?
23:04 < ybit> yep
23:05 < kanzure> ybit: I did some commentary on an article I read today. Don't read the article. It's a waste.
23:05 < ybit> will do then 
23:05 < kanzure> You can read my commentary, though.
23:05 < kanzure> http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-June/043989.html
23:05 < ybit> cool
23:05 < Splicer> ybit: You were the one who posted that youtubeclip about the sun being powered by electricity right?
23:05 < ybit> Splicer: right
23:06 < Splicer> ...i wrote some comments to it there... as 'cybersmuff'
23:07 < ybit> sweet, i'll check it out :)
23:07 < fenn> strategies of safety/reliability/security aside, i think the "ethical" label unappropriately politicizes any actions of the group..  anyone can question any activity and call "ethics" forcing everyone to stop what they're doing and say 'shut up you wanker' 
23:07 < fenn> and generate endless circular arguments with no basis
23:07 < fenn> instead of some progressive technical activity
23:08 < fenn> you might as well say 'holy' instead of ethical, unmask it as the religious argument that it is
23:09 < Splicer> have they marked anything as unethical yet?
23:09 < fenn> anything can be considered ethical or unethical depending on your motives and circumstance
23:09 < fenn> DIYbio - the non-genocidal biohacking group!
23:10 < fenn> (except all those annoying pest animals and insects)
23:10 < fenn> (and northkoreans and iranians)
23:11 < Splicer> yes I understand.. but I have a feeling they may be claiming the territory... if the own the word... we may be able to do what we want.. we would be the ones defining it.
23:11 < kanzure> fenn: don't forget to Join Now.
23:12 < Splicer> there is beauty to the fact that the word means everything and nothing... people need to feel someone is in control of things
23:12 < fenn> its the same thing that bugs me about wta.org
23:12 < kanzure> Who cares what they feel?
23:12 < ybit> bb soon
23:13 < fenn> we're supposed to be the wingnuts, not some sleazy respectably whitewashed  corporation
23:13 < ybit> nm
23:13 < Splicer> who's stopping you
23:13  * kanzure spots a Superkuh. (2008-06-12 22:17:46) Superkuh: HelloMeow: My initial searches turn up nothing. I usually default to gigapedia.org first, then the gnutella2 peer to peer network, then various IRC ebook channels.
23:13  * kanzure wonders where the good IRC chans are.
23:14 < fenn> flakk.org #bw used to have a lot, but now the main server is gone
23:14 < fenn> i dont know of any journalz though :)
23:14 < kanzure> Bah, I'm good with journal trading now.
23:15 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/docs/warez_boards.txt or just using my university proxy login.
23:15 < kanzure> http://superkuh.ath.cx/ <---
23:17 < kanzure> particularly http://superkuh.ath.cx/users/superkuh/
23:18 < kanzure> I still don't know what the hell he is doing.
23:20 < Splicer> fenn: Not intended to be a plug, but instead of copying it: http://www.biopunk.org/post110.html#p110  ... after having been thinking about it for a while.. this is really the way I feel about it now.
23:22 < wrldpc> DIY Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/worldpeace/
23:22 < Splicer> you were there?
23:24 < Splicer> hehehe... I like them ;)
23:25 < kanzure> We need tags.
23:26 < kanzure> wrldpc: But really. Tell me more about this ... legend.
23:26 < wrldpc> You're loved, Brian.
23:26 < kanzure> I thought they all hated me. :)
23:27 < wrldpc> Yo what is .git?
23:27 < wrldpc> nvm
23:27 < kanzure> wrldpc: Repository format. :)
23:27 < kanzure> Sort of.
23:27  * Splicer likes kanzure too
23:36 -!- ybit [n=h@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
23:41 < Splicer> wrldpc: I link to your flikr page.. hope it's ok
23:41 -!- ybit [n=h@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:43 < wrldpc> No sweat.
23:43 < wrldpc> That's fine, Splicer.
23:43 < wrldpc> I have family from Sweden.
23:46 < Splicer> me too
23:47 < Splicer> Thanks for taking pictures btw.. it's nice to see the people involved
23:56 < wrldpc> no doubt