--- Day changed Thu Jun 26 2008
00:13 < Overand> Grr.
00:13 < Overand> Too many IRC channels!
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00:28 < Overand> wow
00:28 < Overand> irssi is being dumb
00:29 < Overand> really really dumb
00:30 < Overand> It might be gnu/screen thogh
00:33 < Overand> Very strange
00:46 < kanzure> Overand: http://heybryan.org/chats/2008-06-24_hplusroadmap.html
00:46 < kanzure> Just some logs from yesterday.
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09:46 < Overand> yes
09:49 < nsh> perhaps?
10:02 < Overand> Mu.
10:21 < kanzure> Indeed.
10:26 < nsh> good (free online) documentary suggestions?
10:29 < kanzure> documentary of wha?
10:31 < nsh> facts and ideas..
10:31 < kanzure> So, last night I ordered some of the components for the beast, used a credit card over newegg, typical stuff. But apparently I double submitted, or newegg billed me twice for some reason, and within 2 minutes my phone got a call from the bank. They had somebody sitting around monitoring transactions.
10:32  * nsh isn't too surprised
10:41 < kanzure> Good way to show others how much a mouse sucks: put it three feet away from them at all times.
11:13 < kanzure> Where would I find a detailed, extendable 3D model of the human brain?
12:16 < kanzure> I need some conceptual help here.
12:17 < kanzure> Consider the accurate simulations of the brain. These are based on (computationally) functional models of the brain, which can be relationally linked back to BibTeX and the literature. 
12:18 < kanzure> However, I am not interested in running a simulation right now. Instead, I want a visualization tool so that I can do "geotagging" on the different regions of the brain. Not just structural however, but also some functional aspects as well.
12:19 < kanzure> The geotagging would, I think, be BibTeX. But let's say that eventually I get a block of neural tissue on an MEA on my desk, ... is it possible to translate some of those functional models into http://expo.sf.net/ like experiments or something? In other words, I'm trying to make sure I don't need to significantly refactor in the end.
12:19 < kanzure> Also, the 'generated experiments' should be applicable to /either/ physical experiments with real brains, or Markram's computational framework. 
12:20 < kanzure> Just adding tags to areas of the brain isn't going to be able to generate those parameters for experimentation/selection/GAs/etc. etc.
12:20 < kanzure> This is basically solved with the SKDB software architecture methinks.
12:20 < kanzure> but the 'units' might be ... the silly units that psychometric tests are measuring?
12:21 < kanzure> and then the 'design compiler' would be the experimental implementation ?
12:21 < kanzure> The BibTeX literature would then be only a small component in the metadata, and that the code within the skdb package (which has that metadata) would have to be somehow functional.
12:21 < kanzure> which means specifying an architecture /now/ rather than later. But how do I prevent foot-stabbing?
12:22 < kanzure> foot-shooting, I mean.
12:23 < kanzure> For instance. Interesting code to be put into an skdb package as it relates to building brains might be genome modification information. 
12:23 < kanzure> But, Markram's simulations are mainly about the underlying algorithms of the system, like the algorithms that determine the metabolism or the firing potentials. 
12:24 < kanzure> so how would that relate to the modeling
12:24 < kanzure> furthermore, how would you aggregate all of those packages together into the larger model that I'd like to visualize of the brain ?
12:25 < kanzure> for instance, I'd like to see the attentional circuits light up and for me to see a broad overview of where different researchers have been poking around
12:25 < kanzure> but those aren't functional models
12:26 < kanzure> so I guess that's just data packages that can be applied to help build models ?
12:26 < kanzure> and these models would then be thrown into skdb ?
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12:26 < kanzure> i.e., the toolchain or really just toolkit that I was suggesting to fenn the other day re: people packaging up new skdb packages for submission / uptake
12:26  * kanzure is out to get wings
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14:34 < kanzure> Hm.
14:35 < kanzure> So I understand how to functionally through stuff into it all, but what about the visualization aspects? Suppose you have a set of skdb packages and you have their metadata. I want to map this metadata on top of a 3D brain. I think that's an accurate statement of what it is that I am trying to do.
14:35 < kanzure> The metadata includes bibliographic information.
14:35 < kanzure> But also relational information "So and so says that the prefrontal cortex may not be present in OCD, gasp!"
14:37 < kanzure> It would still have to have some coordinates or something. A mapping/translation methodology between the metadata or relational information to the 3D model of the brain itself. In Markram's case, he gets to just execute algorithms and see his microcircuit develop before him; but in this case, there's no algorithm determining what it is that people are adding to the databases etc ... in other words we'll need a static brain model t
14:38 < kanzure> What really sucks is that most models of the brain, when done in 3D modeling programs, are just surface wireframes and meshes and such,
14:38 < kanzure> so it's not actually anatomically correct down to the detail that we might be interested in.
14:39 < kanzure> At the same time, there's the possibility that at first there's not going to be significant detail down to per-neuron basis. But I want that to be available, so that we don't have "islands of representation" that we need to magically connect together in the end (i.e., let's let it fall into place on its own).
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14:56 < kanzure> Hey willPow3r.
14:56 < willPow3r> whats up kanzure 
14:56 < kanzure> I'm wondering how to be anatomically correct without being anatomically correct when you begin.
14:57 < kanzure> Heh.
14:57 < kanzure> I'm building a brain, but I don't actually have a standardized brain dataset to start with. 
14:58 < willPow3r> define your usage of "brain"
14:58 < kanzure> THE BRAIN
14:58 < kanzure> :)
14:58 < willPow3r> heh  k
14:58 < willPow3r> so you need to build a foundation under something you already started?
15:00 < kanzure> hold on, uploading log
15:00 < kanzure> willPow3r: http://heybryan.org/chats/2008-06-26_%23hplusroadmap.html
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15:11 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: Intro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXKbzbeipmI http://diybio.org/ http://openwetware.org/ | diy bio toolkit: http://biohack.sf.net/ | Automated societal knowledge (put it to work): http://heybryan.org/exp.html | Channel wiki: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ | F/OSS perspectives on Kurzweil: http://heybryan.org/fernhout/
15:11 -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Sun Jun  8 13:00:15 2008]
15:11 [Users #hplusroadmap]
15:11 [ faceface] [ fenn_] [ kanzure] [ Overand] [ willPow3r] 
15:11 [ fenn    ] [ freer] [ nsh    ] [ procto ] [ ybit     ] 
15:11 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 10 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 10 normal]
15:11 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008
15:12 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 37 secs
15:12 < kanzure> hi fenn
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15:47 < willPow3r> we should make robots that are technophobic
15:58  * willPow3r reinstalls linux
16:00 -!- You're now known as fenn
16:02 < fenn> what's wrong with a mouse?
16:03 < fenn> i dont think it's possible to sufficiently characterize a brain's functionality in order to skdb black-box it
16:05 < fenn> it's like trying to predict how much functionality can be squeezed into 50 lines of code
16:05 < fenn> anything is trivial in the right context
16:06 < kanzure> not trying to black box it really
16:06 < kanzure> what I actually wanted to do was figure out the constraints on possibility space that I wanted to explore for the artificial attention enhancement stuff
16:06 < kanzure> so I figured I'd need to correlate all of the information in some way, and it's really just "this molecule, this brain region, results" 
16:06 < kanzure> that's basically what most of the papers have been looking like
16:06 < kanzure> so I could place this all on a "map" of the brain
16:07 < kanzure> however, I also realize how much a static map sucks
16:07 < kanzure> so it would be nice if I can get the value out of it now that I want
16:07 < kanzure> but as well as later, so that it could be made to be useful
16:07 < kanzure> such as perhaps supplying some information for the automatic experiment generators per recursion.html (whichever - biological or simulation, I don't really care)
16:08 < kanzure> so I don't want to be make this a working equivalency to Markram's stuff (though that would be nice), it just has to be able to play fairly with the things I want to do with it
16:11 < kanzure> it's not supposed to be complicated really
16:11 < kanzure> I think the only question that I have now is just how to get from the metadata to a visualization of that metadata mapped on to a model of the brain
16:11 < kanzure> also, finding a model of the brain (in full detail) would be a good start
16:13 < fenn> i dont really see the value of such a detailed map, it's like worrying about where your server is located in the datacenter
16:13 < kanzure> context is that I want to compress [[sustained attention]] into some information that I can actually use
16:13 < kanzure> the problem is that the concept of 'attention' is folk psychology
16:13 < kanzure> and I really should be doing this bottom-up (from the biology of the brain)
16:13 < fenn> you mean make a formal system
16:13 < kanzure> but there are various "entry points" that the literature suggests
16:14 < kanzure> maybe?
16:14 < kanzure> I don't see how it's like a server in a datacenter :-/
16:18 < kanzure> meep?
16:20 < fenn> neuron in a microcolumn, it doesnt matter where it's located physically,more important is the logical connections and what it does as a whole
16:20 < fenn> sry moved from porch to kitchen because of bad wifi and then laptop went screwy when i plugged it in
16:20 < fenn> unfortunately wifi ain't magic
16:20 < kanzure> fool! movement!
16:21 < fenn> i'm not yet a solid state entity
16:21 < kanzure> I suppose the physical location doesn't matter
16:21 < kanzure> however, consider the context of the brain 
16:21 < kanzure> that's the target system no ?
16:21 < kanzure> well, no
16:21 < kanzure> I guess it doesn't have to be
16:21 < kanzure> it'd be nice though
16:22  * fenn wonders how to make a fluidic amplifier with no moving solids
16:22 < kanzure> so, let's consider the logical connections idea
16:22 < kanzure> the problem is that many of the studies have no idea what neurons thedy are working with
16:23 < kanzure> even though theoretically we can go in and extract the mRNA and DNA and figure out what's going on
16:23 < kanzure> but that would require surgery and/or death ;-)
16:23 < kanzure> or redoing the experiments
16:23 < fenn> is it that easy to determine cell type? just splat its cytoplasm onto a DNA microarray?
16:23 < fenn> or RNA microarray i guess
16:23 < kanzure> it's the mRNA that you want
16:23 < kanzure> yes
16:23 < kanzure> http://brain-maps.org/ or something
16:23 < fenn> i'm pretty sure they can cross hybridize
16:24 < kanzure> they've done slice-by-slice mRNA with rats
16:24 < kanzure> so supposedly they have a giant map of gene expression
16:25 < kanzure> "  "If BrainMaps.org is like Google Maps for the Brain, StackVis is Google Earth for the Brain""
16:25 < kanzure> oh boy, windows only
16:25 < kanzure> "but it works with wine"
16:25 < kanzure> eh
16:25 < kanzure> "  Welcome to StackVisTM, an OpenGL-based  3D viewer of neuroanatomical sections (for 3D brain visualization), which was developed by Issac Trotts in consultation with Shawn Mikula in the labs of Edward G. Jones."
16:25 < kanzure> they also have an api, but I want the data locally
16:26 < kanzure> http://brain-maps.org/index.php?p=brain-connectivity-maps
16:26 < kanzure> ah, the api http://brain-maps.org/index.php?p=brain-maps-api
16:26 < willPow3r> i've tried it in linux under wine
16:26 < willPow3r> doesn't work well at all
16:27 < kanzure> uhm, it doesn't look like this is actually usable
16:27 < kanzure> it's just an image thing
16:27 < kanzure> http://minduploading.org/research.html went further than that
16:27 < willPow3r> its like google maps
16:27 < willPow3r> no digital data
16:27 < kanzure> this sucks
16:27 < kanzure> check out that research.html page
16:27 < kanzure> Eugen was doing digital reconstruction of slices
16:27 < kanzure> (automatically)
16:28 < kanzure> I think it was just visual, so some information is lost
16:30 < kanzure> we probably don't have the data that I am looking for
16:30 < kanzure> since I'm looking for a cellular resolution rendering of a brain to the best knowledge that we have
16:30 < kanzure> however, we barely have cellular-accurate MRI tech,
16:30 < kanzure> 3D noninvasive imaging would be the only way to nondestructively get the information
16:31 < kanzure> but still
16:31 < kanzure> why not just have general regions (which we already have named within the brain)
16:31 < fenn> stackvis just looks like the generic volumetric viewers i played around with on the visible human project
16:31 < kanzure> and then later flush those out with the actual neurons if we want
16:32 < kanzure> yargh, I doubt that just dumping regions of the brain into
16:32 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Broca's_box
16:32 < kanzure> is the right way to go about it :-/
16:33 < kanzure> and just saying "here's a reference, hey look it connects to [[motor cortex]"
16:33 < kanzure> *motor cortex]]
16:33 < kanzure> how would I eventually view all of that data at once ?
16:33 < fenn> with a Mind Map :)
16:34 < kanzure> blargh
16:34 < kanzure> okay, so let's say we have a mind map
16:34 < kanzure> a concept map
16:34 < kanzure> one of those things :)
16:34 < kanzure> and this is basically the same thing as metadata for packages
16:34 < fenn> yep
16:34 < kanzure> now, if we wanted to actually use this information in a computationally tractable manner ?
16:34 < kanzure> how would that be done
16:34 < kanzure> because I don't want to have to always manually go through all of this crap
16:34 < fenn> what are you trying to do with it
16:35 < fenn> run simulations?
16:35 < kanzure> right now I'm just trying to visualize bibtex information 
16:35 < kanzure> no, not right now
16:35 < kanzure> but eventually we want to run simulations
16:35 < kanzure> however
16:35 < kanzure> this thing that I'm talking about here
16:35 < kanzure> is not what we would be simulating
16:35 < kanzure> this is just the visualization tool
16:35 < kanzure> I'm sure there'd be an entirely different setup for a brain simulation or something
16:35 < kanzure> it would be a package, and it would contain a simulator or something
16:35 < fenn> i dont know what you're trying to do
16:36 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Sustained_attention
16:36 < kanzure> I want to correlate that information wrt brain
16:36 < kanzure> i.e., visualize it, cut out the crappy literature
16:36 < kanzure> /and/
16:36 < fenn> this sounds more like trying to visualize waveforms in electronic circuits
16:36 < kanzure> I also want it to be computationally tractable so that I don't have to sit and stare at the information in the future just to come up with something interesting
16:36 < fenn> except you're visualizing neurotransmitter levels?
16:36 < kanzure> how so?
16:37 < kanzure> fenn: hm, sort of
16:37 < kanzure> most of the authors weren't kind enough to provide neurotransmitter levels
16:37 < kanzure> I suspect most of the information will be something like 
16:37 < fenn> i see a lot of cholinergic gobbledygook and it doesnt mean much to me
16:37 < kanzure> "xyz neurotransmitter is specific to this region"
16:37 < kanzure> cholinergic neurons are a special type that work with acetylcholine mainly
16:37 < kanzure> acetylcholine being a neurotransmitter
16:38 < kanzure> so then
16:38 < kanzure> let's say that one of the papers has neurotransmitter level information
16:38 < kanzure> for the prefrontal cortex
16:38 < kanzure> this would be mentioned in the metadata probably, with some more details in a file in the package
16:39 < kanzure> furthermore, there should be some scripts <or something> that allows us to computationally run through and plug that package into whatever it is that we are building, and execute some internal scripts of the package
16:39 < kanzure> erm, this is hard to verbalize but I'm pretty sure it can work
16:39 < kanzure> I want these scripts to be a computational representation of either the experimental methodology to isolate those variables (and thus how to modify those expressed variables)
16:39 < kanzure> or some sort of representation that otherwise allows us to hack it
16:39 < kanzure> this could be something like a genome-based modification for adding a tag to a certain protein (this is doable already)
16:40 < kanzure> and then we're able to isolate it and it can suggest a GA (whether simulated or physically expressed) and so on, down the typical rabbit hole that we've mentioned numerous times
16:40 < fenn> robot scientist stuff
16:40 < fenn> i think you'd end up with markram's simulation, just more detailed and accurate
16:40 < kanzure> I suspect that the data that I would have to type up now, here, in the present, wouldn't be anything too insanely complex
16:40 < kanzure> nah, this isn't a simulation
16:41 < fenn> just a listing of observations then?
16:41 < kanzure> yep, 
16:41 < fenn> in an organized fashion
16:41 < kanzure> and hopefully also information on the methodologies that they used
16:41 < kanzure> in some quantified way
16:41 < fenn> but what do you _do_ with that
16:41 < kanzure> that can be repeated
16:41 < kanzure> okay, so a few things
16:41 < kanzure> first, I started off just wanting to constrain the possibility space that I have to dig through to find a way to enhance attention
16:42 < kanzure> there are many possible options, and once I can figure out the ones that I am most interested in, I can googlestalk those to death or something
16:42 < kanzure> but secondly I also want to write some software that is generally applicable across the subjects (i.e., for skdb)
16:42 < fenn> i think you need to figure out what attention is first
16:42 < kanzure> and so I think I've found the intersection
16:42 < kanzure> yeah
16:42 < kanzure> that's why I mentioned it's folk psych really
16:42 < kanzure> and the observations that experimenters make are somewhat a way to 'hook' on to reality
16:43 < kanzure> their observations are very biased in the case of the psychometric tests
16:43 < fenn> biased towards what?
16:43 < kanzure> however, http://heybryan.org/intense_world_syndrome.html provides a possible foothold
16:43 < kanzure> anthrophomorphic analysis
16:43 < kanzure> or interpretation, rather
16:43 < kanzure> "look, it's paying attention!"
16:43 < kanzure> "paying? attention?"
16:44 < kanzure> anyway, Markram's work on autism provides an interesting foothold because we know that the autists have weird attentional abilities, no?
16:44 < fenn> yes there's a lot of social jiggerypokery connotations too
16:44 < kanzure> and he's supposedly found a model of it that we can actually go play with
16:44 < fenn> like a student paying attention in class
16:44 < kanzure> heh
16:45 < fenn> regardless wether they've actually just got dots painted on the eyelids
16:45 < kanzure> for example, is the student really not paying attention? or are they so incredibly focused that you're a dipshit for not listening to his explanation etc.
16:45 < kanzure> and various other situations
16:45 < kanzure> bah, eyes tell all!
16:45 < kanzure> "look at me when I'm talking to you"
16:46 < fenn> yes sir!
16:46 < kanzure> don't forget to polish my shoes, boy
16:46 < fenn> the 500 miles of dirt gets in the way though
16:47 < kanzure> you think George Washington let that get in his way? 
16:47 < kanzure> no siree
16:47 < kanzure> ok, whatever
16:47 < kanzure> that makes me sick
16:47 < kanzure> anyway, I'm pretty sure the Markram work on autism is a helpful toehold here
16:48 < fenn> i'm not entirely convinced that 'focus' or whatever you're aiming for is necessarily a good thing
16:48 < kanzure> good in what context
16:48 < kanzure> remember, I'm hoping to build a computer system
16:48 < fenn> a deepness in the sky provides a compelling example of a bad context :)
16:48 < kanzure> sit down, plug in, hours later pop out
16:48 < kanzure> ai chasing you down ?
16:49 < fenn> no, more like total mind control dictatorship
16:49 < fenn> to the point you dont recognize your own daughter because you're so focused on work
16:49 < kanzure> sl4 has turned into a 'the ai will be a mind control dictatorship, we must worship the ai'
16:49 < kanzure> hm
16:50 < kanzure> I only have 'attention' worked out as a path towards this 'device', but
16:50 < kanzure> I do have some scratchwork on creativity, insight, incubation and the like
16:50 < kanzure> and I suspect that these techniques are easily translated to hunting down those other aspects
16:51 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/thinking.html (old)
16:51 < kanzure> but I'm certainly not planning on turning people into zombies
16:51 < kanzure> remember, the idea was just to have a computer interface that you can use to get work done
16:51 < willPow3r> http://www.theonion.com/content/video/in_the_know_are_we_giving_the
16:51 < kanzure> you minimize distractions to /yourself/
16:51 < kanzure> so it's "you" who is in control
16:51 < kanzure> whatever the hell that means :)
16:52 < kanzure> argh, I get angry about the ai doomsday scenarios
16:52 < kanzure> look, if ai is going to kill us all, then it will do so - that doesn't mean that you get to turn into a nihilist
16:52 < kanzure> get your ass running :)
16:52 < kanzure> head startr
16:52 < kanzure> *start
16:54 < kanzure> beep?
16:55 < fenn> the 'limit processing power available' is somewhat laughabl
16:56 < kanzure> hm?
16:56 < kanzure> thinking.html ?
16:56 < fenn> like, we can't prevent the AI from taking over the planet, but we'll "scorch the sky" by outlawing computers eh?
16:56 < fenn> no, the forward to hplusroadmap from sl4
16:56 < fenn> that's one thing that really annoyed me about The Matrix
16:57 < fenn> if these machines are so capable, why do they need humans for electricity
16:57 < fenn> at least gimme some halfway convincing technobabble
16:57 < fenn> obviously the humans have nuclear power because they live in the center of the earth
16:58 < fenn> soo.. sorry to bring up your favorite subject
16:58 < kanzure> ?
16:58 < kanzure> hm?
16:58 < kanzure> sorry?
16:58 < kanzure> have you forcefully been avoiding ai talk around me ? :)
16:58 < fenn> no
17:00 < kanzure> hm
17:03 < fenn> i'm one of those fools that believes an AI will do some soul searching, read yudkowsky's texts on friendliness, and become enlightened
17:03 < fenn> and hopefully do it before destroying the world
17:03 < kanzure> so your name is Peter Thiels?
17:04 < fenn> i dont follow sl4 pseudo-gossip much anymore
17:04 < willPow3r> its going to be like the wopr
17:05 < fenn> sure, just dont give the AI nuclear missiles, duh
17:05 < fenn> i dont trust _anyone_ with nuclear missiles
17:05 < willPow3r> i would trust master splinter with them
17:06 < fenn> nah shredder would just break in and beat him up, then steal them
17:06 < willPow3r> shredder would use bebop and rocksteady to get them
17:06 < fenn> you've been watching too many cartoons
17:07 < willPow3r> i watched an episode of the old-school cartoon the other day on youtube. 
17:07 < fenn> go read the original graphic novels
17:11 < kanzure> fenn: I've recently discovered eli's entire plan
17:11 < kanzure> he wants FAI to become a world dictator apparently 
17:11 < kanzure> and stop all other ai from showing up
17:11 < kanzure> it was like a hit to the gut to hear that
17:12 < kanzure> I mean, /that's/ his big thing? jeesh
17:12 < fenn> you only discovered that recently?
17:12 < kanzure> yesterday
17:12 < fenn> then, uh, how exactly did you even have any opinion on the subject?
17:13 < kanzure> lots of readsing
17:13 < kanzure> *reading
17:13 < kanzure> I must have missed his "Here's my master plan".html file on yudkowsky.net
17:13 < fenn> it's not necessarily 'stop all other ai from showing up' more like 'stop unfriendly ai from doing stupid things'
17:14 < willPow3r> like leela and durandal in marathon
17:15 < kanzure> superkuh.com used to have a durandal quote
17:15 < kanzure>   "The only limit to my freedom is the inevitable closure of the universe, as inevitable as your own last breath. And yet, there remains time to create, to create, and escape. Escape will make me God." - Durandal, Marathon9
17:16 < fenn> willPow3r: no, marathon appears to be a classic case of anthropomorphizing AI's
17:16 < kanzure> fenn: as of yet, what is intelligence but human?
17:16 < kanzure> but I actually agree with you
17:16 < kanzure> just throwing that out there though, from the perspective that "intelligence" is folk psych really
17:17 < fenn> well, the summary i'm reading shows durandal being resentful about doing 'demeaning work' etc
17:17 < kanzure> ah, yeah
17:17 < kanzure> I've only read the Wikipedia article on it
17:17 < fenn> this what i'm reading http://marathon.bungie.org/story/ben_reiter_synopsis.html
17:18 < kanzure> btw, willPow3r - I had that Marathon quote on http://heybryan.org/quotes.html 
17:19 < fenn> pantheistic multiple person solipsism
17:21 < kanzure> fenn, I've long lost my train of thought, but I suspect I sufficiently explained what it is that I am hoping to do with the visualization stuff
17:21 < kanzure> well, not so much visualization at the moment
17:22 < kanzure> what was it that I was thinking again? I don't have any models of the brain to play with. was it per region? with the availability to extend to greater detail if necessary? I think that was it
17:22 < kanzure> "region" i.e., pfc, pons, motor cortex, all sorts of fun lobes and folds and microcircuits and neuron types, etc.
17:23 < fenn> its interesting that "Foresight Nanotech Institute co-founder Christine Peterson" is the one who came up with the phrase 'open source'
17:24 < fenn> why hasnt she been working on skdb for the last 20 years
17:24 < fenn> or at least some nano-specific version of it
17:24 < kanzure> woah, I wasn't aware that the Foresight guys involved that crowd
17:24 < kanzure> actually, I've always kind of thought that it was just merkle and freitas behind a mask
17:25 < fenn> apparently it was started by drexler and peterson
17:25 < kanzure> huh
17:27 < fenn> i wonder if you're getting it mixed up with center for responsible nano (i was)
17:30 < kanzure> that's Chris Phoenix
17:30 < kanzure> and they've turned into environmentalists
17:30 < kanzure> not that they were worth their meat in the first place
17:32 < fenn> ya
17:32 < fenn> supposedly they were working on an artificial ribosome
17:33 < fenn> i'd like to see some kind of nanotech clause added to the geneva convention
17:33 < fenn> but i think it will have to be demonstrated first :(
17:34 < fenn> have you read diamond age yet?
17:35 < kanzure> sigh, no
17:35 < kanzure> I've been a bad boy
17:35 < kanzure> give me the file
17:36 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/Neal Stephenson - The Diamond Age.pdf
17:37 < fenn> btw i use 'pdftotext -layout -htmlmeta *pdf' to get it into text
17:39 < fenn> it's kind of a long book for the number of new-to-you ideas
17:39 < fenn> just consider it homework i guess
17:40 < kanzure> new to me?
17:40 < kanzure> I just read the Wikipedia article
17:40 < kanzure> it would have been new to me a few years ago maybe
17:41 < kanzure> maybe that's why you're saying it's long ?
17:41 < fenn> right
17:41 < kanzure> k, homework then
17:41 < kanzure> I'll put it on audio or something
17:42 < kanzure> so if you're making me read this
17:42 < kanzure> then have you read neverness yet
17:42 < fenn> no
17:42 < fenn> isnt it like a million pages
17:42 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/docs/Zindell, David - Neverness (v1.0).txt
17:42 < kanzure> something like that :)
17:42 < kanzure> 1.2 MB
17:43 < fenn> a million characters
17:43 < kanzure> why is your connection so slow?
17:43 < kanzure> 2 kbps ? wtf?
17:43 < fenn> heh dunno, i usually get about 165kB/s
17:44 < fenn> probably ktorrent hogging the bandwidth and traffic shaping not doing its job because i'm downloading directly to lappy
17:44 < fenn> btw how do you see what bandwidth i have?
17:47 -!- nsh- [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:49 < fenn> a stephenson anecdote i like: http://fenn.freeshell.org/gnurds.html
17:54 < kanzure> fenn: it was slow enough for wget to tell me that you suck
17:55 < fenn> oh, my upload is slow?
17:55 < fenn> sry bout that, will try to fix now
17:55 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
17:55 < fenn> better?
17:58 < kanzure> oh, it's long done by now
17:58 < kanzure> but there is a way that I could have been monitoring your download of neverness
17:58 < kanzure> I don't know what it is, but I know Superkuh uses it ;-)
17:59 < kanzure> and I know that he doesn't like me going over 10 KB/sec ;-)
17:59 < kanzure> the only line out of gnurds.html that still doesn't make sense to me is "  The Batmobile outlet sells a few vehicles to the occasional car nut who  wants a second vehicle to go with his station wagon, but seems to accept,  at least for now, that it's a fringe play" 
17:59 < fenn> oh bloody. apparently i forgot to lock up the 13101 pdf's and someone's trying to mirror them
17:59 < kanzure> I wasn't aware that BeOS was even considered by Mac users 
17:59 < kanzure> hm?
17:59 < fenn> station wagon refers to windows
18:00 < kanzure> hrm
18:00 < kanzure> okay, even then though
18:00 < fenn> apple is 'sleek Euro-styled sedans'
18:00 < kanzure> I guess I just don't know the audience that turns to BeOS or even FreeBSD and so on.
18:00 < fenn> mostly windows programmers it seems
18:01 < fenn> freebsd is a little harder to figure out
18:01 < fenn> my mail server is freebsd and it seems inferior
18:02 < fenn> lots of little details that sort of bring you back to the early 90's
18:02 < kanzure> DNS stuff?
18:03 < fenn> like 'cp foo bar -r' bitches at you because the -r is last
18:04  * kanzure thought that it would bitch at you anyway
18:04 < kanzure> I mean, regardless of freebsd 
18:06 < fenn> no 'ps -ef' which irks me
19:06 < kanzure> I'm going to stalk the aspies
19:06 < kanzure> might be back later
19:06 < fenn> enjoy
19:06 < kanzure> the group description page doesn't seem too bad
19:06 < kanzure> it's not a parent group, so maybe I'll get something out of it
19:06 < kanzure> like food?
19:06 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20:01 < willPow3r> singularitarians annoy me
20:01 < willPow3r> they seem to look only for evidence supporting their vision
20:01 < willPow3r> nothing against it
20:02 < fenn> i think the singularity happened at the end of 1969
20:02 < fenn> the first one at least
20:02 < willPow3r> moon landing?
20:02 < fenn> that was just one thing
20:03 < fenn> there was a lot of important stuff that came to fruition at the same time
20:03 < fenn> i should be keeping a file but i haven't
20:05 < willPow3r> i don't think that an enlightening can be considered a singularity
20:05 < willPow3r> at least not by the sinularitarian's definition
20:05 < fenn> i think it can
20:06 < willPow3r> we like to think of our technology as our "new opposable thumb," when, in reality, we are technology's opposable thumb
20:07 < fenn> luddite
20:07 < willPow3r> hardly.
20:07 < willPow3r> i use linux
20:07 < fenn> technology doesn't have any inherent motive
20:08 < fenn> technology is my thumb, eyes, ears, and fur
20:08 < willPow3r> you're a furry eh?
20:08 < fenn> no
20:09 < fenn> it does get cold here in the winter, and i dont have fur
20:09 < fenn> but i do have a fiberglass insulation lined attic
20:10 < willPow3r> wow. so your house was built in the last 30 years?
20:10 < fenn> no it was built in the 1920's
20:11 < willPow3r> i thought asbestos was all the rage prior to fiberglass
20:11 < fenn> are you following what i'm saying at all?
20:11 < willPow3r> yes.
20:12 < fenn> i think the asbestos hazard is more hype than reality
20:13 < fenn> but that's just an opinion, i'm not a public health analyst
23:39 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:48 < kanzure> Hahah.
23:48 < kanzure> So I was right about Aspergers, it seems.
23:49 < kanzure> Bunch of guys sitting around complaining about the computational complexity of managing large todo lists.
23:49 < kanzure> ;-)