--- Day changed Fri Jun 27 2008 00:58 < kanzure> So did I solve the visualization problem or not ? 00:58 < kanzure> The issues on mapping the metadata in some visual manner ? 00:58 < kanzure> and on top of a model of the brain ? 01:08 < ybit> oi, how big is the git repository? 01:09 < ybit> it's taking quite awhile to download it seems 02:25 < faceface> fenn ... faceface: havent you read "the sectret life of plants"? and if plants have nervous systems, why not bacteria 02:25 < faceface> secret* 02:25 < faceface> anyway a leucine transporter doesnt mean much of anything 02:25 < faceface> it's just an amino acid 02:26 < faceface> fenn: leucine is a neurotramsmitter also? 02:26 < faceface> but its the fact that our brain proteins have homologues in bactria that interests me 02:29 < faceface> بلوچی مکرانی 02:30 < faceface> kanzure: you asked about something like a 'geographic information system' for the brain? 02:30 < faceface> I don't know of any brain coordinate system for human 02:31 < faceface> gmail is quite lame really 02:43 < faceface> sooo... 02:46 < willPow3r> i dont think gmail was meant for use as a human brain coordinate system 02:50 < faceface> willPow3r: it can be used as a file system 02:50 < willPow3r> true, but it has to be hacked for that to work 02:50 < faceface> I found stuff about rodent brain coordinate systems... but perhaps it was thrashed out in the text above 02:51 < faceface> ;-) 02:51 < willPow3r> it was. 02:51 < faceface> OK 02:51 < faceface> I need a daily summary... I find pages of IRC text hard to scan 02:52 < faceface> ever found an 'auto summary' feature that was any good? 02:52 < willPow3r> i'm sure kanzure will put the chat logs of the conversation up on his web page. 02:52 < willPow3r> not one that isn't done automatically. 02:53 < faceface> willPow3r: too many negatives.... what do you mean? 02:53 < willPow3r> sorry, change "isn't" to "is" 02:56 < faceface> yeah... its a nice idea though... I often wonder how to make AI better, but I have no idea where to starty 02:56 < faceface> start 02:56 < faceface> like ... you know about global workspace theory of consciousness? 02:57 < faceface> seems a great idea... but how to implement that concept on something practical 04:18 -!- nsh- [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:21 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Success] 04:32 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:52 -!- nsh [n=nsh@eduroam-80.uta.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 06:19 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:25 < kanzure> buh 07:26 < nsh> mm? 07:26 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/chats/2008-06-26.084125-0500CDT.txt 07:26 < kanzure> for Dan. 07:53 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:14 < faceface> tanks 09:14 < faceface> assuming I'm dan 09:14 < faceface> GAH! 10:09 -!- kanzure [i=bryan@dhcp-146-6-213-198.icmb.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:09 -!- faceface [n=chatzill@bioinformatics.org] has quit ["Bye, and thanks... probably."] 11:42 -!- nsh [n=nsh@eduroam-80.uta.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:09 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:24 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:25 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:46 -!- nsh- [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:47 -!- nsh- [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 13:50 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:55 -!- nsh [n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:00 -!- kanzure [i=bryan@dhcp-146-6-213-198.icmb.utexas.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:06 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:26 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:26 -!- nsh- [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:30 -!- nsh [n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31 < ybit> kanzure: diy bio toolkit: http://code.google.com/p/openbiomind/ 15:32 < ybit> rather, it might be of interest to any DIYBio-er 15:52 -!- nsh- [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:55 < procto> ybit: looks interesting, but I'd say the main diybio hurdle is the physical part. i.e. once one has all that gene and snp biodata, this will be a good toolkit to use, but diybio (the org) is currently concentrating on making the extraction process available and affordable :) 15:56 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:58 < kanzure> ybit: You want to import that into the diybio toolkit ? 15:59 < kanzure> that can be arranged :-) 15:59 < kanzure> but as you said, 15:59 < kanzure> the git repo is already, what, 500 MB? 16:00 < ybit> btw, the git clone finished while i was sleeping :P 16:01 < kanzure> fenn: I found Superkuh in #not-physics today working on a thin-film optical polymer slash bendable fresnel lens. I think he's trying to brew his own internet connectivity. 16:01 < ybit> took a lot longer than downloading from sourceforge, but git is so much more fun 16:01 < kanzure> ybit: Mid-July I'll have an 8 MBit connection, so we'll see if you like that. :) 16:05 -!- nsh [n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:06 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:06 < ybit> 8mbit, i suppose happy and jealous at the same time 16:08 < fenn> kanzure what does thin flexible fresnel lenses have to do with internet connection? 16:13 < kanzure> 'Foundation for Decentralized Research' and co-founder of Freenet is apparently working one block over from me. Huh. 16:13 < kanzure> fenn: stack the lenses in a sheath and then shine lasers through it to transmit information 16:14 < fenn> why not just use regular lenses (as in ronja) 16:14 < kanzure> I think that's what he ended up doing, he mentioned going through craigslist and heading off to go fetch an old projector tv 16:15 < fenn> i took apart a projector tv and it had some neat stuff, a big front surface mirror and 3 cathode ray tubes with big lenses on the front 16:15 < fenn> but, ronja works with dollar store magnifying glasses 16:16 < fenn> i wonder if 'foundation for decentralized research' has any ronja links set up 16:16 < kanzure> ' PGP: THE PUBLIC GENITALS PROJE' 16:17 < kanzure> *project 16:23 -!- nsh- [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:27 < kanzure> " languages meant to enable new practices. Laadan, for instance, was a language in which truth values were encoded right into speech, so an utterance had to contain information about whether the speaker had actually witnessed the event being described, or whether the inform" 16:29 < kanzure> " Conceptually, the ACTLab operates on three principles5: Refuse closure; Insist on situation; Seek multipl" 16:30 < kanzure> I like 'refuse closure'. But it looks like a transgender group. Odd. 16:33 < fenn> what's the context of 'refuse closure'? 16:34 < kanzure> " t population has the skills to assemble working computers from cheap and plentiful parts. It's helpful here to recall one of the definitive Trans principles, which of course we share wi" 16:34 < kanzure> fenn: I suspect it's 'summarization 16:34 < kanzure> ' 16:34 < kanzure> and a broad/general context 16:34 < kanzure> i.e., 'closure on a deal' or 'closure in conversation' 16:34 < kanzure> I rarely give closure on phone calls any more. 16:35 < kanzure> the whole goodbye shit is meaningless 16:35 < fenn> it lets you know the conversation is over 16:36 < kanzure> " In constructing ACTLab course frameworks, refusing closure is a prime directive: we endeavor to hold discourses in productive tension rather than allowing them to collapse into univocal accounts. This is a deliberate strategy to prevent closure from developing on the framework itself, to make it difficult or impossible for an observer to say “Aha, the curriculum means this”." 16:36 < fenn> "Donna Haraway notes that cyborgs refuse closure" 16:36 < kanzure> fenn: the lack of a connection means they are not listening 16:37 < fenn> maybe it means like in a mathematical sense 16:37 < kanzure> hah 16:37 < kanzure> that'd be peculiar 16:37 < kanzure> closure on a loop struct, yes? 16:37 < fenn> i was thinking like a closed set of numbers 16:37 < fenn> i.e. you can't get out of R except by dividing by zero 16:38 < ybit> i don't have my logs from so many days ago, but does anybody remember me posting a link to a short story in which robots gradually took over and the protagonist and his friend are eventually stuck in a jail-like environment until two ladies deliver a pass to austrailia, where there's a utopia like haven awaiting them. 16:38 < fenn> its marshallbrain.com 'manna' 16:38 < ybit> that's it 16:38 < ybit> thanks 16:38 < fenn> i'd like to point out that it wasnt the robots that took over, it was the capitalists 16:39 -!- nsh [n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:39 < fenn> or monopolists, whatever 16:44 < kanzure> anyway, the actlab is presenting in the session before me tomorrow 16:44 < kanzure> I'm making an appearance at InnovationCamp in Austin to babble about automating this whole 'innovation' thing 16:45 < kanzure> I wonder what sort of materials I should bring 16:46 < kanzure> There's not much in way of viewables really, except maybe pictures of technologies 16:46 < kanzure> "Here's a lathe." 16:46 < kanzure> "Here's a ribosome." 16:46 < fenn> heh i gotta admit its the first time i've read a trans/goth/make curriculum 16:46 < kanzure> I wonder if they actually have resources though 16:46 < kanzure> otherwise it's just all talk 16:47 < fenn> i'm sure there's some stuff, probably mostly media arts equipment 16:47 < kanzure> skdb for movies? :-/ 16:47 < kanzure> wasn't there an 'open movie project' from blender.org a while back? 16:47 < fenn> just consider it MIT medialab on acid 16:47 < kanzure> they got enough money to have four blender artists come together at an animation studio (a fancy apartment in Paris or something) 16:47 < kanzure> awesome 16:48 < kanzure> actlab, medialab 16:48 < kanzure> hah 16:48 < kanzure> I get it 16:48 < fenn> yeah they made elephants dream and some other movies, quite good actually 16:49 < fenn> hmm. "Vernon was also the author of the Pirate Utopias website...Vernon also created a series of wearable sculptures incorporating integrated circuits and LED displays which he designed and fabricated himself in a chip foundry he built for this purpose" 16:49 < kanzure> uhh 16:49 < kanzure> uhhhh 16:49 < fenn> i wonder if 'chip foundry' means what it generally means 16:50 < kanzure> http://www.vernonreed.com/ 16:50 < kanzure> http://www.vernonreed.com/PastLife.html 16:51 < kanzure> " I was getting into... In 1975, I started making electronic jewels which incorporated CMOS digital circuits to control patterns in liquid crystal displays (LCDs), which I made in a 'clean room' in my studio. These early pieces were revoutionary, in their use of real-time LCD graphics, but they were ultimately unsatisfying. The on-board circuits were not computers and lacked sufficient complexity to be of interest 16:51 < kanzure> ' s were the first ever made. All the while I was working with placing computers on people, I was starting to think about how to get people into the computers instea' 16:52 < kanzure> so does that mean CMOS components were purchased? 16:53 < fenn> i'm not sure 16:53 < kanzure> ' Technology and Metalsmithing Symposium, Tyler School of Art, Philade' 16:53 < kanzure> http://www.vernonreed.com/oldresume.html 16:54 < kanzure> maybe it was for making the LCDs 16:55 < fenn> reading this http://www.vernonreed.com/Writing/papers/visucomp.txt 16:56 < fenn> nope motorola chip MC1468705G2 16:57 < fenn> oh well 16:58 < kanzure> actlab != medialab 16:58 < kanzure> medialab has http://edboyden.org/ 16:58 * fenn goes in the corner and cries 16:59 < fenn> we've gotta get the chip fab cost down 17:00 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/graphene.html 17:00 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/semiconductor.html 17:00 < kanzure> I'm still thinking that an alternative computational strategy might be a better idea /or/ just doing large circuits (mm size) 17:00 < kanzure> *mm scale 17:00 < fenn> have you read about fluidics? 17:00 < kanzure> not much 17:01 < kanzure> but a fluid transistor was suggested to me 17:01 < kanzure> by David (Gershenfeld's David) 17:01 < kanzure> he didn't recommend it, just mentioned it 17:01 < kanzure> something about a guy down the hall working on it 17:01 < kanzure> you know, I'd be ok with vacuum tube tech 17:01 < fenn> meaning a liquid phase electronic transistor or an amplifier for moving streams of liquids? 17:01 < kanzure> might be terribly slow but so is waiting for nanotech 17:01 < kanzure> liquid phase electronic transistor 17:02 < kanzure> LIquiFET 17:02 < fenn> ok that's totally different 17:02 < fenn> probably involves nasty chemistry 17:02 < kanzure> so, piping system ? 17:02 < kanzure> oh yes 17:02 < kanzure> very nasty :) 17:02 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidics 17:02 * kanzure wanted to construct a liquid FET in a jar 17:03 < fenn> fluidics is used in water fountains for sequencing control http://www.tippettsfountains.com/fluidicsbasics.php?width=1270&height=745 17:03 < fenn> wish i could see the movies 17:03 < kanzure> construction of the machinery? 17:04 < fenn> just demonstration of the water fountains 17:08 < kanzure> no, I'm asking you for information on what's involved in making these logic gates and such 17:08 < fenn> oh, etched glass usually, since it's used for chemistry (biotech stuff) 17:08 < fenn> but just about anything i'd guess 17:09 < kanzure> hrm? 17:09 < kanzure> you have to shoot the water out though 17:10 < fenn> no, there just has to be flow in the system 17:10 < fenn> i assume it works with gases, so you could use a diffuser to create static pressure 17:10 < kanzure> so there's not a point where the rate of movement of water may impede the actual functionality 17:10 < kanzure> like imagine a hose 17:10 < kanzure> or a shower head 17:11 < kanzure> start turning off the water and the water quickly drops off 17:28 < kanzure> it'd be nice if a plastic film, like the type that listerine comes in, could be used to do optical siganling 17:37 < fenn> it can, but you have to melt it into a lens first :) 17:37 < fenn> you're talking about PETE plastic right? 17:38 < fenn> i was looking at reprap experiments with different plastics all day 17:38 < fenn> PLA looks pretty good but afaik you have to make it yourself 17:38 < fenn> or source it from some industrial place 17:39 < fenn> anyway, the amateur telecope maker crowd has that base covered 17:40 < fenn> there's guys that cast their own glass blanks, grind and lap by hand, build the vacuum coating chamber 17:40 < fenn> its the electronics we can't make from scratch though 18:54 -!- willPow3r_ [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:54 -!- willPow3r_ [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:13 < ybit> the aging conference is streaming http://www.ustream.tv/channel/immortality-update 20:40 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:48 < fenn> from ed boyden's blog, sound familiar? "5. Make contingency maps. Draw all the things you need to do on a big piece of paper, and find out which things depend on other things. Then, find the things that are not dependent on anything but have the most dependents, and finish them first." 20:50 -!- nsh- [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:02 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:21 < ybit> wow, are you sure that's not a log from #hplusroadmap? 21:21 < ybit> from a log of #hplusroadmap 21:21 < ybit> ** 21:22 < ybit> yep, i'm convinced that wasn't modafinil i received 22:37 < willPow3r> how are you convinced 23:08 < ybit> i had little sleep last night 5hrs, and i've had typing mistakes all day! :P 23:08 < ybit> i really don't know just yet 23:09 < ybit> i'd have to analyze its properties first 23:10 < ybit> it's going to be hard convincing the professors to let me use their equipment to check the purity of my drugs :P 23:12 * ybit is buying lab equipment soon though, so i may not have to 23:15 < fenn> what lab equipment and why? 23:15 < fenn> seems like checking the purity of modafinil would be rather arduous 23:16 < fenn> at least it's not a stereo isomer 23:23 < willPow3r> i've gotten it mail order from canada before 23:23 < willPow3r> its not as good as provigil 23:23 < fenn> its the same thing? 23:24 < willPow3r> same active ingredient 23:24 < willPow3r> modafinil 23:24 < fenn> why do you say 'not as good' then? 23:24 < willPow3r> delivery mechanism is probably different 23:26 < willPow3r> the action for provigil is noticeably better 23:26 < willPow3r> imo 23:57 < ybit> was away 23:57 < ybit> i'm willPow3r, it doesn't work the same 23:57 < ybit> i'm doubling my dosage tomorrow hoping to feel something 23:57 < ybit> i'm with willPow3r** 23:59 < ybit> it probably would be tedious work