--- Day changed Sat Jun 28 2008 00:02 < ybit> even the snythesis of it looks laborious 00:02 < ybit> http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/adrafinil.modafinil.html 00:34 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:44 < kanzure> fenn: I like that quote from Ed's blog, thanks 00:44 < kanzure> re: quantified chemical analysis, http://heybryan.org/instrumentation/instru.html some with explanations and links to diy projects, many not 00:44 < kanzure> also, it doesn't include biological instrumentation even though it should :) 00:49 < kanzure> hm, now I just need to figure out what to present tomorrow 00:52 < kanzure> Eli singled me out on the sl4 mailing list today. :-/ 00:53 < fenn> heresy 00:53 < kanzure> hm, it's not on the archives yet 00:53 < kanzure> basically, Lee Corbin sent an email to the list as if he was an ai and was saying "this is why you should give me all yer keys to the thingies!" 00:54 < kanzure> and then I replied with a lengthy analysis pointing out all the bullshit and said 00:54 < kanzure> "You're freaking me out if /this/ is what all of your wonderful ideas amount to." 00:54 < kanzure> I even included the phrasee lee-i in the message, so it's obvious that I knew it was Lee. 00:54 < kanzure> but then Eli comes up and says "This isn't me; I have no idea who. Come on, isn't that obvious from the writing style?" 00:55 < kanzure> so he can't read headers 00:55 < kanzure> O.o 00:56 < fenn> meh 00:56 < fenn> is he still doing the 'ai in a box' game? 00:57 < kanzure> nah, but the guys on the mailing list are 00:57 < kanzure> I really don't know what he's up to 00:57 < kanzure> he just gets funding for I don't-know-what 00:58 < fenn> is anissimov still in his group? 00:58 < kanzure> yes 00:58 < fenn> he had some kind of deduction/inference engine 00:58 < kanzure> anissimov and I haven't been getting along recently 00:58 < kanzure> anissimov and maybe even eli take this "no, only intelligence => singularity" stance 00:58 < kanzure> whereas I point out the upper limits on hardware manufacturing as a limit to 'supposed' exponential growth etc. 00:59 < kanzure> i.e., you can copy all you want, but you'll need more hdd space :) 00:59 < fenn> nah, intelligence can get around so-called upper limits 00:59 < kanzure> maximum compression balconies? 00:59 < fenn> balconies? what a silly term 00:59 < kanzure> basically you're talking about data compression 01:00 < fenn> no, but there's plenty of room for that too 01:00 < fenn> i mean, we havent come close to exhausting lossy compression 01:00 < kanzure> at some point a bit is going to have to correlate to something 01:00 < kanzure> so, what, 1 bit per 'intelligence point', ok great 01:00 < kanzure> well you still are producing bits at a linear rate 01:00 < kanzure> heh' 01:00 < fenn> wtf are you on about 01:01 < fenn> data and intelligence are orthogonal 01:01 < kanzure> let's suppose we have /bin/ai 01:01 < fenn> ok and your unstated assumption is it runs on a computer and has no connection to the rest of the world 01:01 < kanzure> and let's also, for the sake of simplification, say that it's a scripted language so it's just a script realyl (not both a binary and code) 01:02 < kanzure> your unstated alternative assumption is that it will just bitforce its way into the interfaces or something :) 01:02 < kanzure> i.e., random combination #334914 now trying to activate hardware component 37 on floor 5 of ip address .... 01:02 < fenn> or persuade a human to do rl stuff until it has the means to make its own hardware 01:02 < fenn> robots come with documentation, why cant it just read the manual 01:03 < fenn> i dont want to just grind through all the yudkowsky examples for you 01:04 < fenn> if the AI is worth a damn it can figure out how to run a robot 01:04 < kanzure> anyway, back to my example 01:05 < kanzure> at some point, you're going to maximize the number of beneficial changes to the code that you can make without adding an extra bit 01:05 < kanzure> there's a maximum on the number of bits. 01:05 < kanzure> which is constrained by linear manufacturing of those bits (hdd fabber). 01:05 < fenn> why linear manufacturing? 01:05 < kanzure> I'm referring to what we currently have going for us 01:06 < kanzure> now, 01:06 < fenn> sure but that's a poor upper limit 01:06 < fenn> and even so it's probably more than enough 01:06 < kanzure> theoretically, the enhancements to the manufacturing proc can be discovered within those bits of additional uhh usefulness, before it reaches that leveling off at the max number of bits on a hdd 01:06 < fenn> what's the total data storage connected to the internet? anyone know? 01:06 < kanzure> in 2003 it was est. 161 exabytes 01:07 < kanzure> estimated 01:07 < fenn> ok i rest my case 01:07 < kanzure> not established 01:07 < kanzure> unless that's now 161^2 exabytes now ... ;-) 01:07 < fenn> enough code to blow up earth many times over 01:07 < kanzure> I feel a great disturbance in the market for pizza and coke. 01:10 < kanzure> I'm not sure why I was complaining about ai a few moments ago like that 01:10 < kanzure> technically there's that upper limit issue, sure, but in reality that's not my big beef with the whole thing of course 01:11 < kanzure> there's a few issues that concern me, like the implied "the ai can do this and you can't" and of course their weird Bayes approach to it all ;-) 01:12 < kanzure> so 01:12 < kanzure> what the hell am I going to be presenting tomorrow? :-p 01:12 < kanzure> I know what to talk about and I know how I want to say it, 01:12 < kanzure> but just standing up or sitting down and talking isn't a good way to go about things. 01:12 < kanzure> should I do the typical stupid power point? 01:12 < kanzure> There's a projector available, so I could just go around surfing the net. 01:13 < kanzure> and pointing out why something is awesome and how it can relate to the overall projects 01:13 < kanzure> I titled it 'automating innovation' so that I can tie in the incubation theory ideas with the artificial attention augmentation system plus some other fun stuff, like, you know, an innovation aggregation project (erm, skdb), etc. 01:15 < fenn> sounds like you're making a super duper AI yourself mister :) 01:16 < kanzure> and in which case I just need to figure out which links among the many that I'll want to select 01:16 < kanzure> not so, according to them the ai means all sorts of statistical inference sillyness and Bayes and Goal Hierarchical Systems and voodoo magic made for dominating the world etc. 01:16 < fenn> you will run into the same things while creating an automated innovation machine 01:17 < kanzure> why would we need a statistical inference engine 01:19 < kanzure> har har har 01:19 < kanzure> innovation automation 01:19 < kanzure> ia 01:20 < kanzure> it's like ai but all backwards. 01:32 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/ia.html 01:32 < kanzure> hrm 01:43 < fenn> re: societal aspects of innovation, normally i think of 'standing on shoulders of giants' and isaac newton etc 01:43 < kanzure> sure, I could throw in some references to that 01:43 < kanzure> hm, there's a lot to throw in 01:43 < kanzure> I present at noon, but it starts at 10 01:53 -!- percent [n=percent@66.158.193.25] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:11 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:11 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:01 -!- percent_ [n=percent@66.158.193.25] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:17 -!- percent [n=percent@66.158.193.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:30 -!- percent [n=percent@66.158.193.25] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:46 -!- percent_ [n=percent@66.158.193.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:33 -!- percent_ [n=percent@66.158.193.25] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:49 -!- percent [n=percent@66.158.193.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:17 -!- percent_ [n=percent@66.158.193.25] has quit [" "] 06:23 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:17 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:54 -!- nsh [n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:49 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:09 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] --- Log opened Sat Jun 28 10:40:46 2008 10:41 -!- fenn [n=pz@adsl-76-248-68-62.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:41 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: Intro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXKbzbeipmI http://diybio.org/ http://openwetware.org/ | diy bio toolkit: http://biohack.sf.net/ | Automated societal knowledge (put it to work): http://heybryan.org/exp.html | Channel wiki: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ | F/OSS perspectives on Kurzweil: http://heybryan.org/fernhout/ 10:41 -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Sun Jun 8 13:00:15 2008] 10:41 [Users #hplusroadmap] 10:41 [ fenn] [ freer] [ nsh] [ Overand] [ procto] [ ybit] 10:41 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 6 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 6 normal] 10:41 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008 10:41 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 0 secs 13:15 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:21 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:57 -!- nsh- [n=nsh@d85-194-245-82.cust.wlannet.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:05 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:29 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:06 -!- nsh- [n=nsh@d85-194-245-82.cust.wlannet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:03 < kanzure> I met freenet guy. 17:21 -!- ybit [n=h@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:24 -!- ybit [n=h@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:26 < kanzure> http://kevinkoym.com/ 17:26 < kanzure> Kevin either wants to hire me, work with me, or do something related to brain augmentation. He used to do neurofeedback apparently. 18:11 < kanzure> http://www.bootstrapaustin.org/wiki/index.php/Welcome_to_Bootstrap 18:13 < kanzure> argh 18:13 < kanzure> I'ms till beating my head over about the whole brain visualization stuff 18:13 < kanzure> I mean, if I do a 3D model of the brain and just do regions, what good does that do me 18:14 < kanzure> don't I need an exact neuronal model of the brain 18:14 < kanzure> but at the same time I need to do something that I should have started yesterday 18:14 < kanzure> so I'm trying to find that "balance" 18:14 < kanzure> the real balance might be in something totally different that I am neglecting somehow 18:14 < kanzure> I suspect I made a nerror in reasoning somewhere, and tracing this error is proving to be a pain. 18:21 < kanzure> http://www.kosmophone.com/ "The Kosmophone is a gamma-ray spectrometer operating in the range of about 3 to 7 million electron-volts (MeV) controlling a MIDI music synthesizer." in Austin. 18:37 < kanzure> $18 125 PSI air tank w/ guage. On the other side of the city. Worth it? 18:59 < fenn> how big? 18:59 < fenn> if <10gal no, even then you should have a use for it or it will just be in the way 19:35 < kanzure> k 19:35 < kanzure> it was 10 gal ish 19:35 < kanzure> why don't I have a map of the whole brain anyway, even a 'fuzzy map' 19:35 < kanzure> this is ridiculous 19:36 < kanzure> anyway, on another front, for some reason I ended up writing this 'long' email that I'm about to send out to a number of mailing lists 19:36 < kanzure> it's asking others how they go about acquiring useful equipment for cheap 19:36 < kanzure> so, you know my autoscholar script 19:36 < kanzure> it would be ridiculously easy to write a crawler that goes through a predefined routine always searching the local websites for deals one quipment 19:36 < kanzure> *deals on equipment 19:37 < kanzure> for instance, craigslist and ebay definitely 19:37 < kanzure> and also include some behavioral routines, such as driving through some predefined course and checking a number of stores / locations 19:37 < kanzure> the driving part can't be computationally automated obviously 19:37 < kanzure> but no reason that you can't be automatically keeping tabs on all of the indices for specific words and so on 19:38 < kanzure> right? 19:48 < kanzure> How weird. 19:48 < kanzure> http://humancortex.alleninstitute.org/has/human/advancedsearch.html 19:48 < kanzure> The only two possible locations: temporal cortex or visual cortex. 19:48 < kanzure> Uhh. Isn't there more specificity than that in the brain. 19:48 < kanzure> Just uhh saying :) 19:50 < kanzure> So obviously this is going to end up leading me back to ontologies of the brain, or internal coordinate referencing systems, or something. 19:51 < kanzure> Crap. 21:22 < kanzure> Hahah. 21:22 < kanzure> So I was just sitting in the garage. I found this really neat maroon chair sitting there. So I was there for a few minutes, whatever. 21:23 < kanzure> Clicked back to craigslist (I'm outlining some garage sales to hunt for tomorrow, and then dumpsters to try diving in) 21:23 < kanzure> http://austin.craigslist.org/gms/735848255.html 21:23 < kanzure> That's the chair.