--- Day changed Tue Jul 15 2008
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03:32 -!- nsh changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: heybryan server will be down as of 2008-07-12 | Semi-intro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXKbzbeipmI http://diybio.org/ http://openwetware.org/ | diy bio tools: http://biohack.sf.net/ | Automated societal knowledge (put it to work): http://heybryan.org/exp.html | Channel wiki: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ | F/OSS re: Kurzweil: http://heybryan.org/fernhout/ ¦ kanzure: downfor
03:32 < nsh> pft
03:32 -!- nsh changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: heybryan server will be down as of 2008-07-12 | Semi-intro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXKbzbeipmI http://diybio.org/ http://openwetware.org/ | diy bio tools: http://biohack.sf.net/ | Automated societal knowledge (put it to work): http://heybryan.org/exp.html | Channel wiki: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ | F/OSS re: Kurzweil: http://heybryan.org/fernhout/
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03:55 < Hrpuffnstuf> morning
03:56 < Hrpuffnstuf> damn angsto
03:56 < Hrpuffnstuf> site is still down huh
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04:05 -!- Joke_Phucker is now known as God_Helmet
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04:13 < fenn> heh god helmet
04:15 < God_Helmet> :D
04:15 < God_Helmet> seen god lately?
04:20 < fenn> "I see no god up here."
04:20 < God_Helmet> figured
04:20 < God_Helmet> just thought i would check
04:24 < God_Helmet> wish site was up- so much material i had not gone through yet
04:25  * fenn suggests wikipedia
04:25 < God_Helmet> ya
04:27 < fenn> have you taken a look at openfarmtech.org?
04:43 < God_Helmet> not yet sir
04:43 < God_Helmet> synopsis?
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04:54 < kanzure> Heh.
04:54 < kanzure> Hey God_Helmet.
04:54 < kanzure> So the server should be back up from now on. :-)
04:54 < God_Helmet> yipee
04:54 < God_Helmet> let me know if you need help straightened that fucker out
04:54 < kanzure> I got smart and made a guess -- I guessed that their user registration scheme was really just to keep track of peoples, not so much to sort people out from one another. So I now have two internet access accounts.
04:55 < God_Helmet> oh good
04:55 < God_Helmet> i figured out i could hack the state camera system today- BUT I AM NOT GOING TO
04:55 < kanzure> so I have two IPs mapped to a dorm room
04:55 < God_Helmet> (just for our overlords to know)
04:55 < kanzure> this may or may not be the definition of geek itself
04:55 < God_Helmet> kanzure i have resources dude
04:55  * nsh waves
04:56 < nsh> kanzure, the site was http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com
04:56 < nsh> (down for everyone or just me [?])
04:56 < God_Helmet> we should move this stuf, i mean you can retain root or whatever- but i really can pop it up some where reliable
04:56 < kanzure> God_Helmet: feel free to copy
04:56 < God_Helmet> nsh lol
04:56 < kanzure> especially http://heybryan.org/biotech.git
04:56 < God_Helmet> i can wget everything
04:56 < kanzure> go ahead :-) I'm on an 8 MB/sec connection now.
04:56 < God_Helmet> in a couple hours when i am work
04:56 < nsh> kanzure, you should make periodic sitedumps to save tcp overhead anyway
04:56 < God_Helmet> DAMN YOU insomnia
04:57 < nsh> good netizenship
04:57 < God_Helmet> or do a balancing apache setup
04:57 < kanzure> nsh: site dumps to where?
04:57 < God_Helmet> damn so many ideas, so little time
04:58 < God_Helmet> that would be a great open source utility to have
04:58 < kanzure> uhm
04:58 < kanzure> so
04:59 < kanzure> singinst wants me
04:59 < nsh> like a crontab to tarball up everything accessible and dump to $http_root/sitedump/date.tar.bz or whatever
04:59 < kanzure> nsh: that's a couple gigabytes of space the hdd doesn't have
04:59 < kanzure> but I'll work on that
04:59 < nsh> ah, fair enough
04:59 < kanzure> I certainly have backups
04:59 < God_Helmet> yah
04:59 < kanzure> though never, it seems, of the latest and greatest
05:00 < kanzure> did I mention SIAI wants me
05:00 < God_Helmet> i hate people who dont.  I mean come on, I love hubris and sloth as much as the next person, but to not have things backed up is just dumb
05:00 < kanzure> God_Helmet: welcome to #hplusroadmap
05:01 < kanzure> we'd all like a backup of the planet
05:01 < God_Helmet> singinst and siai both want you?
05:01 < God_Helmet> what are they?
05:01 < kanzure> same thing
05:01 < kanzure> http://singinst.org/
05:01 < God_Helmet> and be careful
05:01 < God_Helmet> great young wizards often find themselves building the infrastructure of the authoritarians
05:02 < God_Helmet> just sayin
05:02 < kanzure> it turns out they want to install a repository
05:02 < kanzure> it takes about five minutes
05:02 < kanzure> but there's a flight up to the Bay Area in it for me
05:04 < kanzure> huh
05:05 < kanzure> 5 subscribers to my feed from Google Reader
05:06 < fenn> they're going to fly you out to setup a git repo?
05:06 < kanzure> yep
05:06 < kanzure> oh, 
05:06 < kanzure> plus it has to have the word Bayesian on it
05:06 < fenn> now i officially hate SIAI
05:06 < kanzure> but whatever
05:06 < kanzure> I thought SIAI was made up of programmers and stuff
05:06 < kanzure> but apparently not
05:07 < fenn> the whole point is that it's easy to do
05:07 < kanzure> fenn: I would be surprised at this point if they understand the command line mentality
05:08 < kanzure> on the other hand, if they were bright enough to ask the right question, properly referencing the concept of a repository and outlining the simple features, then maybe not?
05:09 < God_Helmet> kanzure- unfortunately i find that more and more in my professional career
05:09 < God_Helmet> the true gems are few and far between, but man the ones who get it- omfg
05:10 < God_Helmet> going to try to get a couple hours of sleep before work.  :<  nite
05:10 < kanzure> God_Helmet: These are the guys that took the funding of Paypal's cofounder for 'ai research'
05:10 < kanzure> same guy that funded facebook
05:11 < God_Helmet> oh and not sure why but this picture makes me happy-> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gwenie/2651265613/sizes/l/
05:11 < God_Helmet> i thought facebook had a "fishy" funding source or something
05:11 < kanzure> ?
05:11 < God_Helmet> if you get me
05:11 < God_Helmet> (random letter agency)
05:12 < kanzure> eh
05:12 < nsh> SIAI == ?
05:13 < nsh> ah
05:13 < nsh> as i guessed
05:14 < nsh> 'night, God_Helmet
05:18 < nsh> these guys (SIAI) seem a little overobsessed with the 'safety' aspect of AI
05:18 < kanzure> that's their hole gig
05:18 < kanzure> whole
05:18 < kanzure> but it's also a hole
05:18 < nsh> i think they read too many scary stories about rampant ais or something
05:18 < nsh> it's sophomoric
05:19 < kanzure> I think their answer to that would be "they will be able to make bigger rockets and chase you forever"
05:19  * nsh smiles
05:19 < kanzure> and while it's true some radically evil ai might opt to do that, not trying is a death sentence, and focusing only on enslaving ai as a way to make sure that does not happen? yawn
05:19 < nsh> gotta check on ethanol precipitation, brb
05:19 < nsh> (damn obsolete sequencing methods :-/)
05:20 < kanzure> we added a phenol/ethanol step today to our transcription stains
05:20 < kanzure> we were getting streaking :-/
05:20 < kanzure> smearing, rather
05:20 < kanzure> uh, yesterday I guess
05:20  * kanzure sleeps
05:23 < nsh> mmm, smearing is a chore
05:24 < fenn> nsh what are you sequencing?
05:24 < nsh> reporter constructs
05:36 < nsh> you guys still thinking/working on PCR hacking?
05:36  * nsh always interested in any new developments/thoughts
06:00 < fenn> not i.. PCR is dead simple, can't see how it would get any simpler/better than idaho scientific's thermocycler
06:01 < fenn> essentially a lightbulb, CPU fan, temp sensor, and microcontroller
06:02 < fenn> you load glass capillary tubing with your reaction mix, then seal the ends with a bunsen burner and stick it in
06:15 < nsh> yeah, one of those "why the fuck didn't i think of that?" idea
06:15 < nsh> but i meant specifically the enzyme itself, rather than the reaction
06:16 < nsh> or, exploiting side-effects of the enzymes operation to perform 'incidental' sequencing during pcr amplification
06:16 < nsh> *enzyme's
06:16 < nsh> ok, so evolution tends towards economy, but it's hard to eliminate all perturbations of a process
06:17 < nsh> polymerase may give out a signature of some kind as it operates
06:19 < nsh> or may be alterered to leave one
06:37 < fenn> nsh: http://www.pacificbiosciences.com/  watch the "demo"
06:58 < nsh> i think i may have been just reading about that
06:58 < nsh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Molecule_Real_Time_Sequencing
06:59  * nsh hates marketing :-/
06:59 < nsh> who talks like that...
07:01 < nsh> problem is that the nanophonotonics is probably: (a) proprietary (b) not-cheap (where cheap means accessible to the developing world)
07:02 < nsh> that said, it's very nice technology!
07:02 < nsh> they've also advanced their commercialisation date
07:02 < nsh> which is nice
07:02 < nsh> original projections were 2012-13 iirc
07:03 < nsh> the inner-space-race is on!
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07:10 < fenn> i directed you to the company site because wikipedia's diagram sucks
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07:12 < fenn> proprietary indeed, but i dont see why it should be expensive (besides artificial scarcity)
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07:48 < nsh> information property is the epitome of artifical scarcity :-)
07:53 < nsh> it's not enough that the developed world hoards all the physical resources, which can't be cheaply replicated, as well as all the monitary capital, which in some manner of speak eventually correspondends to physical resources, labour, or other finite product, but how can we really justify hoarding what can be freely given to the poor at no loss to outselves
07:53 < nsh> disgusting
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11:33 < kanzure> transhuman > transexual? :p
11:39 < nsh> feelin' rested?
12:04 < kanzure> heh
12:07 < kanzure> I don't know why I bother going into the lab :)
12:07 < kanzure> it's a bunch of sitting around doing nothing
12:07 < kanzure> since the other two newbies do all of the work and mingle around
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13:39 < kanzure> /topic Automated societal knowledge (put it to work): http://heybryan.org/exp.html | Semi-intro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXKbzbeipmI http://diybio.org/ http://openwetware.org/ | diy bio tools: http://biohack.sf.net/ | Channel wiki: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ | F/OSS re: Kurzweil: http://heybryan.org/fernhout/
13:39 < kanzure> hm
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13:51 < Democritus> whoops
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13:53 < Democritus> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap
13:53 < Democritus> 14 social can be as important as any of the aforementioned technologies systems on that page
13:53 < Democritus> but of course I WOULD say that
13:54 < Democritus> just that the page talks about realities/technologies and makes assumptions of things we "should" be doing.  the social fabric of that is as important- as people are governed by themselves first - but only under a social-impact umbrella
13:56 < Democritus> and it should be handled in as a scientific way as the previous statements.  
13:56 < Democritus> of course
14:07  * nsh smiles
14:07 < Democritus> kanzure- well - just read a bunch more.  the h plus project while having specific goals- does sync up what I was doing earlier- but from a social perspective
14:07 < Democritus> very similar end goals in mind however
14:08 < nsh> people may be governed by themselves, but for the greater part, who thoseselves are is governed by the culture they absorb
14:08 < Democritus> right
14:09 < Democritus> especially considering much of the personality coding and id/ego/superego creation is done at such an early age- where you are in a protected and often foul social group (the nuke family), whereas you just do not have the proper information to set a tower
14:09 < Democritus> and most social structures are tower-based knowledge systems- not web/wiki/FOSS
14:09 < nsh> but, we appear to be rapidly approaching the time when the pace of change in culture, at least in its subcliques and peripheries is nearing the generational gap
14:10 < Democritus> hopefully the end of the tower-people is coming
14:10  * nsh nods
14:10 < Democritus> (doubtful- those fuckers are entrenched)
14:10 < nsh> it's true: the socius has survived many threats and incorporated much ability to withstand them
14:10 < Democritus> THE AUTHORITY SAYS:   is so freaking powerful
14:10 < nsh> but the nature of the current situation may be radically different to previous upheavals
14:11 < Democritus> nsh- yesh
14:11 < Democritus> no i am not drunk
14:11  * nsh smiles
14:12 < nsh> but, there is perhaps one anchor that will prove most resiliant of all: language
14:12 < Democritus> going all chomsky on us?
14:12 < Democritus> :D
14:12 < Democritus> explain what you mean though
14:12 < Democritus> (would like to hear)
14:13 < nsh> meh :-) i haven't read chomsky, more like supir-whorf
14:13 < nsh> the catagories-of-thought and other ontological/epistemological forcing-functions implicit in the subconscious patterns laid out during language-aquisition
14:14 < Democritus> absorbing that
14:14 < nsh> ..predispose the mind in certain ways
14:14 < Democritus> oh yeah
14:14 < Democritus> absolutely
14:14 < nsh> so if science is the evaporation of the impossible, progress must be accumulation of the concievable
14:15 < Democritus> which means people can be built that are NOT equipped for accurately interpretting reality
14:15 < nsh> and certain things are far harder to concieve because of the way we talk
14:15 < nsh> and its effects on the way we thing
14:15 < Democritus> tons of ideas or concepts not supported by the English language anyway
14:15 < Democritus> cant speak for the others, cept perl,php,COBOL, etc
14:15 < nsh> well, yeah, where accurately is a consequence of consensuation
14:15  * nsh nods
14:16 < nsh> but there are various projects, <s>loglan</s> lojban, for instance
14:16 < Democritus> human made forces have very little concept language in english
14:16 < Democritus> "human made forces" - like "collective-will"
14:16  * nsh smiles
14:16 < Democritus> "social normalization"
14:17 < nsh> it's a kind of conceptual blindspot
14:17 < Democritus> specialists thats why
14:17 < Democritus> i blame it all on the specialists
14:17 < nsh> right
14:17 < Democritus> :D
14:17 < Democritus> farmers
14:17 < nsh> there was a guy, i forget his name, spanish, middle-ages
14:17 < Democritus> you can probably predict what i am going to say next :D
14:17 < Democritus> lot of those guys
14:17 < nsh> who is apocryphally the last person ever to have been roughly at the forefront of all human knowledge
14:18 < Democritus> haha- 
14:18 < Democritus> gotcha
14:18 < nsh> of course, that would have been impossible at any time, but the point remains
14:18 < nsh> we are on the path to insect-socialisation
14:18 < nsh> but i would argue that we haven't yet reached the point of no return
14:18 < nsh> the era of the everyman, to use a popular victorian term, has not yet drawn to a close
14:18 < Democritus> and since social structure is what it is- invididual wizard peddlers of science and/or political/ economic pull - keeps the specialists in little cages
14:19 < nsh> right
14:19 < nsh> the expert is the person who knows more and more about less and less
14:19 < nsh> until they know absolutely everything about absolutely nothing
14:19 < Democritus> then they gain power from their work
14:19 < Democritus> then they think they know how a social structure works
14:19 < Democritus> :/
14:19 < nsh> it's a big-fish:small-pond effect
14:20 < Democritus> hahaha
14:20 < nsh> but understanding might not necessarily be private forever
14:20 < nsh> it's hard to say, it's one of those perenially almost-possible things
14:21 < Democritus> well- me being me- I see it a bit "different" then most- sounds like you are not alien to what i am saying though.  I would go as far as say - the races' decision to huddle into farming communities and forgo the social structure that evolved over millions of years which was a tribal system, was a BAD social evolutionary fork (Bad of course being garbage- lets say "dead end")
14:21  * nsh largely agrees
14:22 < Democritus> again, loosely- not enough freaking data
14:22 < Democritus> and like you said- it is like the entire world is myopic on this type of thinking
14:22 < nsh> i suspect it was actually a loss-of-function species-wide 'mutation'
14:22 < nsh> probably caused by some disaster (ice-age, etc.)
14:22 < Democritus> because it crosses boundries reserved for "sacred"institutions of the state:family:church
14:23 < nsh> there are various clues scattered about that we may have not been so individual sometime in the not so distant past (10,000 years, at a guess)
14:23 < nsh> when i say not so individual, i mean not islands of subjectivity as we currently are
14:24 < Democritus> a cellular tribal system- i believe that needs to go hand in hand with this kind of scientific experimentation (what is being suggested here), and for that too occur, a sterile experimental environment is needed to host said "experimental societal" design
14:24 < Democritus> agreed
14:24 < Democritus> its funny- the clues are everywhere-
14:24  * nsh nods
14:24 < Democritus> i pointed out to some that the Bible was written by Satan
14:24  * nsh smiles
14:24 < Democritus> Caine/Abel
14:24 < Democritus> Farmer/Nomad- God clearly favors Abel
14:25 < Democritus> we are all decendants of Caine
14:25 < Democritus> Caine wrote the history book
14:25 < nsh> indeed
14:25 < nsh> you read Ishmael, i guess?
14:25 < Democritus> actually no- but after saying that to someone else they said same thing
14:25 < Democritus> guess i should
14:25 < nsh> not a bad book
14:25 < Democritus> he told me it was pretty close to that "wild hypothesis"
14:25  * nsh nods
14:26 < nsh> there was something else i was reminded of by the 'Satan wrote the bible' line, but i can't place it
14:26 < Democritus> that is the intelligent gorilla one right?
14:26 < nsh> right
14:26 < nsh> Daniel Quinn
14:26 < nsh> it's on undernet#bookz iirc
14:26 < nsh> likely in some library torrent too
14:27 < Democritus> think he gave me his copy
14:27 < nsh> ah :-)
14:27 < Democritus> i am waiting for him to read Evolution by Stephen Baxter
14:27 < Democritus> :D
14:27 < Democritus> my copy
14:27  * nsh looks up
14:27 < Democritus> fucking depressing ass book
14:27 < nsh> i'll tell you another nice one, while i remember it: Mount Analogue
14:27 < nsh> it's unfinished, but that almost adds to it
14:27 < Democritus> that books is appropriate for this room
14:28 < Democritus> Baxter concludes : Fuck Evolution
14:28 < Democritus> well not in so many words
14:28  * nsh chuckles
14:28 < Democritus> made a note
14:28 < Democritus> sent
14:29  * nsh ponders
14:30 < Democritus> what was the story where the guy talked about it being an evolutionary advantage to cooperate?
14:30 < Democritus> think it was in a movie
14:30 < Democritus> talked about guys picking up chicks
14:30 < nsh> Dawkins talks about it a lot
14:30 < Democritus> although- i thought when i heard my friend say it "duhhhhh"
14:30 < Democritus> a beautiful mind?
14:30 < nsh> as does, what's his name, Edward Wilson
14:30 < Democritus> yeah it was that guy.
14:30 < nsh> ah, right
14:30 < Democritus> but still
14:31 < nsh> but the scene in beautiful mind was about game theory
14:31 < Democritus> never saw that movie- but if people think that is a touch of brilliance- then shit...
14:31 < Democritus> ah- maybe he misrepresented it
14:31 < nsh> john nash says to the guys he's drinking with to go for the plain girl, not all hit on the hot one
14:31 < Democritus> right right
14:31 < Democritus> good plan- i remember that- 
14:31 < nsh> then the total reward function is maximised as both girls fawn
14:31  * nsh smiles
14:32 < Democritus> absolutely- now the real question is why society is not like that
14:32 < Democritus> en masse
14:32 < nsh> well, you've heard of the prisoner's dilemma?
14:32 < Democritus> which of course the answer is "monkey brains"
14:32 < Democritus> yeah
14:32 < nsh> so, lack of trust makes us go for the safer option if the other person betrays
14:33 < nsh> optimum strategy is tit-for-tat, which is pretty good approximation for how humans act
14:33 < Democritus> right- but that is where the overall social structure becomes so important
14:33  * nsh nods
14:33 < Democritus> i have no idea- the tribal decendants had no idea what kind of hornets nest they were kicking
14:33 < Democritus> nor is there some "central evil force" in the world
14:34 < nsh> well..
14:34 < Democritus> just a natural effect of basing a social structure off unbridling competition of resources
14:34 < nsh> there is the projection of the negative elements in the human psyche
14:34 < Democritus> yeah- i know 
14:34 < nsh> which is what i think was reified into evil as a concept
14:34 < Democritus> agreed
14:34 < Democritus> and there most likely are powerful meglamaniacs pulling strings
14:34 < nsh> puppets pulling strings :-)
14:34 < nsh> you keep following the twine
14:34 < Democritus> but if not them- some other powerful meglamaniac- so they as an individual are not important - it is the role- or programming template that maintains system integrity
14:35 < nsh> but never see the puppeteer
14:35 < Democritus> but- the equation demands the role
14:35 < nsh> right, another forcing function
14:35 < nsh> the role is created, the system abhors its emptiness
14:35 < nsh> it will inevitably get filled
14:35 < nsh> *its vacancy
14:36 < nsh> i notice it all the time in social settings
14:36 < nsh> the interface between people will force a certain pattern of roles
14:36 < nsh> to which the people will gravitate
14:36 < Democritus> yessir
14:36 < Democritus> which is why "armed revolution" makes me laugh
14:36  * nsh smiles
14:36 < Democritus> or any "revolution" really- come on- the economic and social forces are not being changed
14:36 < nsh> right
14:37 < Democritus> just who is running the show- which then "meet the new boss, same as the old boss"
14:37 < nsh> just a perturbation, the same attractor is active
14:37 < nsh> the orbit will be ofset a little, but eventually will return to the same
14:37 < Democritus> cause it is a motherfucking program- and i dont appreciate it
14:37 < Democritus> i expected more
14:37 < Democritus> :D
14:37  * nsh smiles
14:37 < nsh> "it's the economy, stupid"
14:37 < nsh> -- plaque above a former president's desk
14:38 < Democritus> good call
14:38 < Democritus> woman in this building where i work- see her all the time- very preened
14:38 < Democritus> 50ish- 
14:38 < nsh> exchange of values maintains the integrity of the system
14:38 < nsh> mmhmm
14:38 < Democritus> finally talk to her in elevator one day
14:38 < Democritus> "what do you do?" i ask "Marketing!"
14:38 < Democritus> i swear the only thing i could say was "huh...."
14:39  * nsh chuckles
14:39 < Democritus> then started looking for the door to open
14:39 < nsh> for a dreadful moment there i thought you were the one in marketing
14:39 < Democritus> she was apparently offended by my attitude- and as i was leaving 
14:39 < nsh> i was about to take a shower
14:39 < Democritus> this demon from hell 
14:39 < Democritus> 0_0
14:39 < Democritus> she actually says- as the door is closing
14:39 < nsh> ;-)
14:39 < Democritus> "Makes the world go around ya know!"
14:39 < Democritus> in that perky marketing voice
14:39 < nsh> haha
14:39 < Democritus> yes bitch i do know
14:40 < nsh> and the world is rolling downhill
14:40 < Democritus> so when you watch the news and complain about kids getting their heads cut off and used as soccer balls-
14:40 < Democritus> let me remind you who is responsible for making the world go around
14:40 < nsh> indeed
14:40 < Democritus> ever see Bill Hicks on this?
14:40 < Democritus> it is so fucking perfect
14:40 < nsh> i was gonna sic him on you actually
14:40 < nsh> til i realised she was the marketdroid
14:41 < nsh> maybe my favourite act
14:41 < nsh> of all stand-up
14:41 < Democritus> hahaha- "Anybody here in Marketing? if so, Kill yourself, no this is not a joke, kill yourself..."
14:41 < Democritus> yeah
14:41 < nsh> i can't wait until bluetooth is ubiquitous
14:41 < Democritus> you fucking lie and manipulate others for profit - kill yourself
14:41 < nsh> i'm going to leave devices that hack into the headsets
14:41 < nsh> and play that bit
14:41 < nsh> and i'ma leave 
14:41 < nsh> 'em EVERYWHERE
14:42 < Democritus> hahaha
14:42 < nsh> that would be great culture-jamming
14:42 < nsh> btw, if you've never been there: culture-jamming encyclopedia is a great place to spend a night
14:42 < Democritus> i would say I figured out a major video survalliance infrastructure is completely vulnerable
14:42 < Democritus> but i dont think i will say so
14:42 < Democritus> just something i happened to notice
14:43 < nsh> a lot of the outlinks will be dead now, but still lots of great material
14:43  * nsh smiles
14:43 < Democritus> but once you figure out how the program works- it is not hard anyway
14:43 < nsh> did you read they're suing a university to prevent publication of how a certain rfid smart-card was hacked
14:43 < Democritus> the program is about looks- you do not have to have content in most cases- but appear to be the part- if you can do that- being the part is not necessary
14:43 < nsh> the one used on the london underground
14:43 < Democritus> social hacking
14:44  * nsh nods
14:44 < Democritus> dammit
14:44 < Democritus> the publication is still out there though right?
14:44 < nsh> it'll just get out even more
14:44 < nsh> spect so
14:44 < Democritus> right
14:44 < nsh> probably still 0- atm
14:44 < nsh> but someone'll torrent it, etc.
14:45 < nsh> funny how quick people forgot the DeCSS debacle
14:45 < nsh> (that is, the lesson of it: you can't make an idea illegal)
14:45 < nsh> people will apply reductio-ad-absurdum
14:45 < Democritus> good
14:45 < nsh> there were DeCSS haikus ffs
14:46 < nsh> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/
14:46 < Democritus> lol
14:46 < Democritus> remember that
14:46  * nsh brb
14:47 < Democritus> http://www.perlguy.com/contest.html
14:47 < Democritus> perl poetry
14:47 < Democritus> :P
14:48 < nsh> nice
14:49 < Democritus> Perl Haiku of course too
14:50 < nsh> you know, while i was taking a shit, for the first time ever, i figured out a reason to be glab about the massive commercialisation of the internet
14:50 < nsh> it's possibly the only reason it hasn't been shut down 
14:51 < nsh> *glad
14:51 < Democritus> yeah, but it being recorded bothers me
14:51 < Democritus> NOT THE DATA
14:51 < Democritus> the patterns
14:51  * nsh nods
14:51 < nsh> i don't mind the patterns being recorded so much as who has access to them
14:51 < Democritus> all the damn specialists will see is "OH GREAT ANOTHER WAY TO CONTROL"
14:51 < nsh> yep
14:51 < Democritus> actually they wont
14:52 < Democritus> they will be chopped up into little pieces- each only doing a little harm
14:52 < Democritus> :D
14:52  * nsh smiles
14:52 < Democritus> "i didnt invent the atomic bomb, i just had to make the 3rd washer fit right"
14:52 < Democritus> know what i mean?
14:52 < nsh> oh yeah
14:52 < nsh> they used to do it with capital punishment
14:52 < nsh> 7 buttons that might turn on the volts
14:52 < Democritus> well- the information being collected from internet traffic- is perhaps some of the most valuable information on the planet- 
14:53 < Democritus> if you had an unlimited budget to analyse the data- what could you do?
14:53 < nsh> or 5 levers that remove the plank under the noose
14:53 < Democritus> oh yeah
14:53 < Democritus> remember that
14:53 < Democritus> so- lets take what we know about both social and other types of network systems
14:54 < Democritus> it was pointed out you can remove like 5 people from Holywood and 6degrees to Kevin Bacon becomes like 14 degrees
14:54 < nsh> right
14:54 < nsh> small-world networks
14:54 < Democritus> having communication information recorded, plotted charted and gridded- you see the hubs
14:54 < nsh> always a few critical nodes
14:54  * nsh nods
14:54 < Democritus> you dont like the way they are moving the social fabric
14:54 < Democritus> just take out the hub
14:55 < Democritus> you can stop a movement of millions with 100 such moves
14:55 < Democritus> theoretically
14:55 < nsh> i don't doubt
14:55 < nsh> but my optimistic side would say that for each hydra-hub lopped off
14:55 < nsh> the network would get a little more resilient in growing the next
14:56 < Democritus> well- people who are specialists are controlling this- and are going to do what they always do- only look at the issue with their 7yr old nuke family deviate specialist myopia
14:56 < nsh> right
14:56 < Democritus> good point
14:56 < Democritus> i designed a non authoritarian super cluster
14:56 < Democritus> i think it would work
14:56 < Democritus> insert people and/or computers into the type of system
14:56 < Democritus> dont matter
14:56 < Democritus> probably easier to start with computers :D
14:57 < nsh> like someone was saying today in a comment thread about that judge ruling that copying to RAM is copyright-violation: in 50 years the judges will understand computers and rule sensibly about that, but by then they'll be fucking up whatever the next paradigm is
14:57 < Democritus> idol worship bullshit from tower-people
14:57 < nsh> but the flip-side of that is that the forefront, the innovators, have the equal advantage that result from that
14:57 < Democritus> yeah- noticed that in my career as IT
14:57 < nsh> they dinos don't understand the technology they're trying to suppress yet
14:58 < nsh> mmm, interesting about the cluset idea
14:58 < nsh> *cluster
14:58 < Democritus> you ever see this http://thewebsiteisdown.com/
14:58 < Democritus> 10 mins
14:58 < Democritus> pure humor- pretty good
14:58  * nsh checks
14:59 < Democritus> its not that hard- i will have to whip out my napkins i wrote them on
14:59 < Democritus> if i didnt wipe my face with the napkins
14:59 < Democritus> that happens
14:59 < Democritus> :D
15:00 < Democritus> hey when i was 9 i was eating out- and suddenly wrote down something like " mankind created god out of man's own ignorance of his natural world, fear of the unknown, and desire to control others"
15:00 < Democritus> on a napkin - i like writing on napkins
15:00 < nsh> fuck, got two minutes in before i remembered the flash sound is dead in firefox for some reason
15:00  * nsh watches in opera, brb
15:00 < Democritus> lolz
15:00 < Democritus> it is worth it
15:00 < Democritus> brb
15:01 < Democritus> btw- if i had my druthers (whatever they are), I would want an umbrella group (even corp) to oversee that stuff like this gets freely worked on, provides funding for social structures that non-conform. etc
15:01 < Democritus> back in 10mins
15:14 < nsh> sound is painfully choppy for some reason. will watch when ram is less at the premium
15:14 < Democritus> ack
15:15  * nsh smiles @ writing on napkins
15:15 < nsh> i have an unfortunate adversion to writing anything anywhere
15:15 < nsh> coupled with a sporadic memory, it's lead to a lot of ideas going the way of all flash
15:15 < Democritus> anyway- decentralized super cluster- ABCD(a(1,2,3)b)E style
15:16 < Democritus> letter represent process categorization or classification - skills if you are talking people
15:17 < Democritus> you join you check in with D node and get list of needs matched with skills- you make choice of initial group- as processing changes and nodes changes however, you may reassign yourself
15:18  * nsh had a similar idea once for irc
15:18 < Democritus> so lets say i had 10k computers and databases were not a pita to sync.  these computers are supposed to house files, serve web, etc.  Well in this example A could be "file" serving done from a series of qualified computers.  Again, if a machine joins that has a ton of Ram and no HD's you probably would not want to fill this group
15:18  * nsh nods
15:18 < Democritus> B, ftp servers (i hate ftp), C web, D - control group- 
15:19 < Democritus> thing is- all non specialized machines are going to land in this category- figuring out the needs requires alot of overhead- and again- there does not have to a central authority commanding each action
15:19 < Democritus> more of a process that produces lists, and self- actualized computers willing to make a choice (that was a bit of a joke)
15:20  * nsh smiles
15:20 < Democritus> of course the idea is redundancy as well- hard as hell to take out central processing hub when it not central
15:20 < nsh> right
15:21 < nsh> but redundancy increases overhead, though increasing b/w and processing is making that less of a problem
15:21 < Democritus> so say this existed though- and I brought up my work systems- 16TB fibre backboned disks
15:21 < Democritus> right-
15:21  * nsh muses
15:22 < Democritus> it is pushing things into tribal cells
15:22 < Democritus> :D
15:22 < nsh> right on :-)
15:22 < Democritus> monkeysphere family groups when talking people, computational groups in computers
15:23 -!- kanzure [i=bryan@dhcp-146-6-213-241.icmb.utexas.edu] has quit [Connection timed out]
15:23 < nsh> so, they built this robot that's made out of cells
15:23 < nsh> they self-assemble using wireless
15:23 < Democritus> really?
15:23 < nsh> to make larger bits that do more interesting things
15:23 < Democritus> link?
15:23  * nsh tries to remember more details for search terms
15:23 < Democritus> understood
15:23 < Democritus> what was my xwifes name again?
15:24 < Democritus> :D
15:24  * nsh chuckles, right
15:25 < nsh> there was a video, i recall
15:25 < Democritus> hey gotta jet- thanks for listening- killing time at work was all- would like to focus on understanding goals, groups, and specific objective points here
15:25 < nsh> http://uk.gizmodo.com/2007/02/23/flexible_robot_can_really_move.html might be it
15:25 < Democritus> otherwise its just an irc channel
15:25 < Democritus> and thats sorta dumb
15:25 < Democritus> imo
15:25  * nsh smiles
15:25 < nsh> indeed
15:25 < nsh> nice chatting with you, man
15:25 < nsh> take it easy
15:25 < Democritus> ty for link
15:26 < nsh> hmm, i remember it being cooler than that
15:26 < nsh> but similar idea
15:26 < nsh> descr seems right, maybe there's a better vid somewhere
15:26 -!- Democritus [n=bee@12.152.56.50] has quit ["Leaving."]
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16:46 < ybit> so the siai wants you to install a repository, is that it?
16:47 < ybit> a repository of exactly what?
16:48 < kanzure> not quite
16:48 < kanzure> I talked it over with one of their goons :-) a friendly goon
16:50 < kanzure> and what they want, which sounds very typical of where Eli has been in the past few months, is a sort of web interface to the distribution of probabilities of different oh-shit-we're-all-going-to-die information. They want, mostly, this to be an explorative platform for users, but they'd be ok with some collaborative modeling and scenario-pushing or some thing.
16:50 < kanzure> I'm trying to figure out how to do some good here ... not just good code, but some good remedial therapy or something sly.
16:50 < kanzure> *all-going-to-die scenarios
16:51 < kanzure> frankly it all looks like the same sort of reasoning used in the finance industry
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17:58 < kanzure> http://graphcomp.com/opengl/index.cgi?v=0111s2m1&r=s4m1 perl-based CT scan workstation
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19:10 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_magnet "A plastic magnet is a non-metallic magnet made from an organic polymer. One example is PANiCNQ, which is a combination of emeraldine-based polyaniline (PANi) and tetracyanoquinodimethane (TCNQ). When it was created by researchers at the University of Durham in 2004 it was the first magnetic polymer to function at room temperature."
19:16 < kanzure> Both neighboring dorm rooms are filled with what sound to be metal players.
19:16 < kanzure> Do I just knock and ask for a CD?
19:16 < kanzure> heh'
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21:01 < kanzure> hm
21:02 < kanzure> a query that I just got on the server:
21:02 < kanzure> autonomous interactive intelligetn agents spiders ferrets internet bots organic traffic
21:02 < kanzure> *intelligent
23:47 < kanzure> laugh: http://singinst.org/aboutus/opportunities/research-fellow