--- Day changed Thu Jul 24 2008
00:17 < ybit> oh yeah, back 
00:17  * ybit makes a note not to annoy others with his status on IRC
00:20 < kanzure> hm?
00:36 < ybit> it´s annoying for others and for myself 
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03:03 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/egan.html quantification of the problem
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09:04 < kanzure> http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Design
09:04 < kanzure> from my inbox today, someone from that site contacted me
09:20 < kanzure> yep, I'm impressed
12:36 < ybit> http://www.lumenlab.com/
12:36 < ybit> link courtesy of Phreedom
12:37 < ybit> http://www.lumenlab.com/robotics/ - all the parts only cost around $500
13:11 < fenn> hype
13:16 < ybit> ah, less than $2000
13:16 < ybit> fenn: why do you say that?
13:16 < fenn> more importantly, it's made up of rods like a printer
13:17 < fenn> try machining some aluminum with a printer carriage and see what happens
13:18 < fenn> it might work on wood, but slowly
13:21 < fenn> also i dont see any electronics to run the servos
13:22 < fenn> its like they just threw a bunch of stuff in a box without seeing if it would actually work
17:42 < fenn> hmm. diaspora is starting to read like a lecture on 5-dimensional physics
17:45 < kanzure> I first encountered it when I was 12
17:45 < kanzure> didn't like it much
17:45 < kanzure> while the idea is "of course" and nice that he tried, eh
17:50 < fenn> "if there are known effects, doesn't this render the whole damn map pointless? The map is not the territory, but if you "know" the territory, then why the hell have the map?"
17:50 < fenn> they didnt know the results of all possible combinations (points on the map)
17:51 < fenn> i got the impression that some parts of the map were more thoroughly sampled than others
17:53 < kanzure> so perhaps it's to the point where it's "roughly mapped"
17:53 < kanzure> I'm pretty sure that we somewhat have Egan's map with Google Mouse, but there needs to be some way to record something about the brains that the SNP data produces :-)
17:53 < kanzure> if this ends up being just some natural language the brain supposedly inputs into the system, so be it :-( (mostly useless)
17:54 < fenn> honestly the google mouse looks like a bunch of colored squiggles to me
17:54 < kanzure> the idea or implementation
17:54 < kanzure> basically Google Mouse can also be the ABA Brain Explorer (my implementation) so it's 3D and showing cortices and so on
17:54 < kanzure> does your comment still apply in that context ?
17:55 < fenn> it doesn't show the relationship between physical structure and behavior/functionality
17:56 < kanzure> correct
17:56 < fenn> then what does it show?
17:56 < kanzure> it was going to be a 'scaffold' where I could somehow constrain my research
17:56 < kanzure> i.e., tag some possible avenues for research
17:56 < kanzure> if there's a statistical correlation between some genes and some perceived functionality, then that would be relevant to search for, no?
17:56 < fenn> right
17:57 < kanzure> but there's still no way to do this functionality mapping
17:57 < kanzure> argh
17:57 < kanzure> worst case scenario it's just random measurements from lab testing
17:57 < fenn> but a realtionship between some gene and functionality doesn't have any bearing on your map (haha)
17:57 < kanzure> "ok, does the brain respond to theta waves ... does it respond to amphetamine ... make the following measurements ..."
17:57 < kanzure> that's true
17:57 < kanzure> epistasis and such
17:58 < kanzure> I was hoping that could be sorted out by the massive statistical aspect of the thing ... if you have a few SNP datasets and measurements from each of the brains, that could get useful, no?
17:58  * kanzure doesn't know if 1k is enough to sort out that many damn variables
17:58 < kanzure> and /me admits how nasty a hack this is
17:59 < kanzure> I was going to email Greg and yell at him about it
17:59 < kanzure> but I don't know if he'll have any ideas
17:59 < fenn> you could correlate genotype with phenotype (the google map) and use that to infer a relationship between gene and physical shape, which would link to gene/function studies (i think i need to rephrase this sentence)
17:59 < kanzure> well I thought the issue with that would be multiply confluencing genes
17:59 < kanzure> polymerase without helicase just isn't the same
18:00 < fenn> but it's not n! combinations either
18:00 < kanzure> heh
18:00 < kanzure> oh, right
18:00 < kanzure> the lab above me was doing giant correlational studies with yeast
18:00 < kanzure> the same could be done for brain circuits
18:00 < kanzure> i.e., Marcotte was isolating the genetic regulatory networks
18:00 < kanzure> http://reactome.org/
18:01 < kanzure> so he had the entire yeast knockout library frozen in a few fridges upstairs
18:02 < kanzure> so how does one describe phenotype anyway?
18:02 < fenn> that's some interesting javascript
18:02 < kanzure> I remember in my first biology class ever, the first week, I was assigned the task of writing down descriptions of little critters in jars
18:02 < kanzure> probably filled with formaldehyde or something
18:02 < kanzure> formalin, whatever
18:02 < kanzure> anyway, being the way that I am,
18:02 < kanzure> I neglected to write down "arm, leg" and such because I just thought that it wasn't all that scientific approach to phenotypic descriptions
18:03 < kanzure> so I went hardcore with "projection from the 5th millimeter of the upper extremity"
18:03 < kanzure> of course I failed miserably, but the idea applies here
18:03 < fenn> well, insects dont really have arms
18:04 < kanzure> :)
18:04 < kanzure> exactly
18:04 < fenn> just a bunch of differently shaped plates
18:04 < kanzure> these things aren't really 'legs' even though they have correlated functions
18:04 < fenn> arm or leg is really a functional description
18:04 < kanzure> which seems to be more .. ethology, perhaps
18:06 < fenn> reactome.org is really impressive
18:06 < kanzure> I agree.
18:07 < kanzure> haven't gotten around to digesting the whole thing yet
18:07 < fenn> heh there's a lot of nodes to digest
18:09 < kanzure> well, I refer to the framework as well
18:09 < kanzure> how they are doing this
18:11 < kanzure> so the phenotypic description of wtf the brain is doing
18:11 < kanzure> let's magically assume we have a way to describe the function of the brain
18:11 < kanzure> could this information be routed back into the map in a constructive way ?
18:13 < fenn> yes, with physical "knockout" studies (lesions)
18:13 < fenn> but i dont see a whole lot of value in that
18:14 < kanzure> wasn't this what enki-2 was saying .. "since we can't say it, let's just specify everything that isn't right, and do it in prolog"
18:14 < kanzure> there were some objections to that method in a logic/computational context for something else
18:14 < kanzure> psychometrics are out of the question I think
18:14 < fenn> aroo? i mean burn some cells at a specific location and see what the functional effect is
18:14 < kanzure> or molecular lesions btw
18:15 < fenn> hrm. molecular things are so much easier to directly correlate to genes
18:16 < fenn> psychometrics is the same as your magical functional description
18:16 < kanzure> psychometrics uses that layer of grammar and natural language though
18:16 < kanzure> it fits, yes, but
18:17 < fenn> not entirely.. there's a lot of abstractions, like what does IQ represent
18:17 < fenn> "it represents G, the general intelligence factor!"
18:17 < fenn> whoopee
18:17 < kanzure> variables dependent on the organism's function during a very particular context for "IQ testing"
18:18 < fenn> but they're aiming for a context independent measurement
18:19 < kanzure> let's not use IQ, that has a lot of baggage
18:19 < kanzure> can you make the point with another variable/abstraction?
18:19 < fenn> ok, i dont know any other psychometric tests
18:19 < kanzure> Stroop attentional task
18:19 < kanzure> it's where you read the color of a word that represents another color
18:19 < kanzure> "red" but it's in blue
18:19 < fenn> ok
18:19 < kanzure> and the measurement is something like hit to miss ratio
18:19 < fenn> seems like its measuring some kind of cross talk
18:20 < fenn> is that a function?
18:20 < kanzure> hm?
18:20 < kanzure> is what a function, crosstalk?
18:20 < fenn> yeah
18:20 < kanzure> sure, why not
18:20 < kanzure> that would be good to have on a map, if it exists
18:20 < kanzure> dunno if the stroop test is measuring it ... that would be better suited for fMRI or something
18:21 < fenn> semantic cross talk, not necessarily electrical
18:21 < kanzure> definitely not necessarily electrical
18:22 < kanzure> maybe my framing is off
18:22 < kanzure> I've been considering some other possible scenarios
18:22 < kanzure> for instance, just mapping *people* on to the map
18:22 < kanzure> and saying "go look at kanzure for this"
18:22 < kanzure> pointers/refs
18:22 < fenn> sure, each person is a combination of many functions in varying degrees
18:22 < kanzure> doesn't really help do anything though ...
18:23 < fenn> you could decompose them into basis functions with enough samples
18:23 < kanzure> yeah, how many?
18:23 < fenn> a lot
18:23 < kanzure> "a lot" is a *shit* load, probably
18:23 < kanzure> consider the trillions of synapses
18:23 < kanzure> and 20,000 brain-related genes
18:23 < fenn> well, you dont have to get a 100% complete map
18:24 < fenn> its like a hypercube, most of the volume is in the corners
18:24 < kanzure> okay, so let's talk about nematodes instead
18:24 < kanzure> 100 neurons, right?
18:24 < fenn> but as long as you map the central region you have a good idea what a hypercube looks like
18:24 < fenn> what functionality does a nematode brain provide?
18:25 < kanzure> someone in the torrent-vid that nsh hated yesterday, has been layering neurons on top of silicon circuit paths and testing the neurons individual with different wirings and connections .. using the surface as a scaffold, then listening to their conversations
18:25 < kanzure> dunno ... surely it's doing something
18:25 < fenn> that's a good idea
18:25 < fenn> better than poking at them with syringes :P
18:25 < kanzure> different silicon patterns for different networks
18:25 < kanzure> yeah, realy
18:25 < kanzure> *really
18:26 < fenn> its sorts like an inverse nanobot
18:26 < fenn> instead of nanobots swarming into the rigid structure of the brain, you have brain cells swarm into the rigid structure of a microchip
18:27 < kanzure> layered the paths with some sort of food for the neurons to grow on
18:27 < kanzure> perhaps it was hormone or something
18:28 < kanzure> out of all of the things that you can say about the brain, what's the most general?
18:28 < kanzure> (yet still correct/sayable)
18:28 < fenn> um, pass
18:28 < kanzure> heh
18:28 < kanzure> I'm still on the phenotype question
18:28 < kanzure> clearly the brain is passing information about itself to others
18:29 < kanzure> thus we have our 'memes' hypothesis
18:29 < kanzure> ideas/thoughts and the like.
18:29 < fenn> that has nothing to do with nematodes
18:29 < kanzure> but it's by no means rigid
18:29 < kanzure> hrm
18:29 < fenn> i was thinking something like 'responds to its environment' or 'responds to stimulus'
18:29 < fenn> but then i got lost in semantics
18:30 < kanzure> any observation that we record of its response is psychometric testing, no?
18:30 < kanzure> like "it wiggles (only) left"
18:31 < kanzure> and then what's "wiggle" ?
18:31 < kanzure> hurray for semantics
18:32 < fenn> brain is much faster than most single-cell control mechanisms, i think that's why it evolved
18:32 < fenn> "something's biting my tail, get it off me!"
18:33 < fenn> or for controlling circulatory system pumps where chemical diffusion isn't fast enough
18:34 < fenn> actually they do use sodium/potassium diffusion but it's phase locked
18:35 < kanzure> ultimately we do have the instruments to measure variables about brains, particularly look at patch clamp or the neurons-on-a-chip stuff,
18:35 < kanzure> btu we can't ask 20,000 users to slice open their heads, build these instruments, and make the measurements
18:37 < fenn> bah i hate google
18:37 < kanzure> neurofeedback is interesting because it allows the user to isolate an internal variable ... many people claim to be able to control their pulse quite easily with the proper equipment, and then some training and soon enough they don't have to use the equipment any more.
18:37 < fenn> sure why not
18:38 < kanzure> I was thinking of the natural language / psychology problem here with semantis
18:38 < kanzure> and I figure that it's like trying to draw somethng through a damn pin hole
18:38 < fenn> ah so you have an objective quantity to measure with an instrument
18:38 < kanzure> but having that neurofeedback component isolates an internal variable and can bring it to the forefront of attention
18:38 < kanzure> yes
18:39 < fenn> so hopefully some people will be able to do this and others won't, and that means something?
18:39 < kanzure> or the range of numbers they can generate perhaps?
18:39 < kanzure> would that be useful?
18:39  * kanzure is afraid of the possibility of a lack of interesting measurements
18:40 < fenn> dunno, maybe if the isolated variable has some effect on magical semantic 'functionality'
18:40 < kanzure> s/generate/control/
18:40 < fenn> what are you going for exactly?
18:40 < fenn> end-goal
18:40 < kanzure> extraction of phenotype-variables
18:40 < kanzure> and their values
18:40 < fenn> why?
18:40 < kanzure> to map on top of Google Mouse/earth
18:40 < fenn> why?
18:41 < fenn> :)
18:41 < kanzure> mostly to constrain my own research to figure out what areas to attack attention at
18:41 < kanzure> that was what it originally started out as
18:41 < kanzure> I have all of this information, but it's pretty useless
18:41 < fenn> say you finally invented the magical attention pill, what would you do with it?
18:42 < kanzure> use it
18:42 < kanzure> it's not a pill btw, it's more like a health monitoring system
18:42 < kanzure> think of galaga except on steroids to destroy destractions automatically so you can continue working uninterrupted :-)
18:42 < fenn> how do you determine what's a distraction?
18:43 < kanzure> I don't even know what a 'distraction' is in terms of the brain or signals/noise
18:43 < kanzure> whatever it is, it stops me from doing really awesome work
18:43 < fenn> the way i see it, when you're doing research, each answer opens up ten more questions.. which of those questions are distractions and which are important?
18:43 < kanzure> s/work/stuff/
18:44 < kanzure> don't know if that's the right way to put it
18:44 < kanzure> the way that distractions work for me are quite weird
18:45 < kanzure> it's not a matter of useless research -- that's bound to happen anyway methinks unless you get more keen at selection -- it's like running through a program and not following it through to completion
18:47 < kanzure> blah, you have me quite off track now
18:48 < fenn> its hard to finish projects when you dont have a specific end state
18:48 < kanzure> btw, a good solution to the Mouse problem is to just leave the instrumentation question open
18:48 < kanzure> sure
18:48 < kanzure> *open and extendable by other programmers
18:53 < kanzure> actually the idea wasn't so much 'attention' as it was whatever I mentioned on humancortex.html
18:53 < kanzure> I think the way I worded it was 'system administrator's guide to the brain" or not so much guide as framework for dealing with it
18:53 < kanzure> distraction-elimination would be one technique to employ, should it ever end up with an actual technique
18:54 < kanzure> so in a sense it could be said that the Mouse/map thing could be used as a way to figure out what possible 'internal variables from that pinhole to draw through' and methods of dealing with them are possible
18:54 < kanzure> it's easy to say in words, but not the implementation methinks
18:54 < kanzure> EEG/MRI/neurofeedback on the sysadmin side of things
18:55 < kanzure> but again, finding easy variables to isolate from users? ehh ...
19:03 < kanzure> sounds kinda useless 
19:04 < kanzure> but it's somewhat based off of the distinction between nearterm (me) versus longterm (something less fucked in the long run than I am) http://heybryan.org/recursion.html
19:04 < kanzure> and buildingbrains.html
19:04  * kanzure goes to eat
19:20 < kanzure> Heh.
19:20 < kanzure> hearing terrible tales of compiler errors from across the tables
19:20 < kanzure> awesome.
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19:27 < ybit> sounds like fun
19:27 < ybit> referring to geek speak
19:57 < kanzure> fenn: http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Design
20:09 < kanzure> hm
20:09 < kanzure> phase-sensitive optical low coherence reflectometery? http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=12&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.opticsexpress.org%2Fviewmedia.cfm%3Furi%3Doe-12-11-2377%26seq%3D0&ei=QBiJSJOLDqjeigGDj7zSDA&usg=AFQjCNFizM-n14E1yRHQHVfg6fT5cJb4Xg&sig2=WeSUyJPuAdjmux-KNaTXEA
20:09 < kanzure> aka backscattered light upon action potentials
20:09 < kanzure> this is another one picked up from whatever the hell it is that Superkuh is up to
20:10 < kanzure> R. U. Maheswari, H. Takaoka, H. Kadono, R. Homma, and M. Tanifuji, “Novel functional imaging technique
20:10 < kanzure> from brain surface with optical coherence tomography enabling visualization of depth resolved functional
20:10 < kanzure> structure in vivo,” J. Neuroscience Methods 124, 83-92 (2003).
20:10 < kanzure> Now doesn't that sound promising?
20:11 < kanzure> T. Akkin, “Biomedical applications of a fiber based low-coherence interferometer for quantitative differential phase measurements,” Dissertation: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, (2003).
20:13 < kanzure>    Rapid mechanical changes were reported in the garfish olfactory nerve using a stylus recording device fastened to a piezoceramic bender [6,7]. The recorded swelling signal and
20:13 < kanzure> aha, that's why he's looking for the Tasaki paper
20:13 < kanzure> finding this one might be interesting: K. Iwasa, and I. Tasaki, “Mechanical changes in squid giant axons associated with production of action potentials,” Biochem. Biophysic. Res. Comm. 95, 1328-1331 (1980).
20:17 < fenn> reminds me of flanagan's neurophone
20:22 < kanzure> interesting idea
20:22 < kanzure> does it .. work?
20:22  * kanzure was reading http://www.neurophone.com/tech.htm
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21:23 < fenn> hmm they changed their story.. used to be claiming that you could send information down ordinary tactile-sense nerves and it would be decoded as audio by the brain
21:24 < fenn> he started out using high voltage pads you stuck to your thigh or palm or whatever
21:25 < fenn> then they figured out that the high voltage would cause the skin to deform like a piezo actuator, so they tried it with piezo's and got the same result
21:25 < fenn> the claim used to be that even nerve-deaf people could hear with it
21:52 < kanzure> odd :)
22:25 < ybit> next year, aarpa can do my taxes
22:25 < ybit> ick
22:25 < ybit> that´s been on the to-do list for awhile now :P
22:26 < ybit> have any of you read neverness?
22:26 < ybit> that´s on the todo list
22:26 < ybit> fenn, i´m guessing since that it´s on your sever you have read the book?
22:27 < ybit> aarp*..
22:33 < kanzure> ybit: I've read it.
22:33 < kanzure> I'm the one recommending it to all of you :)
22:47 < fenn> ybit: just finished it
22:47 < fenn> uh, i think he covered all the bases :)
22:48 < kanzure> who?
22:48 < fenn> egan
22:48 < kanzure> neverness is zindell
22:48 < fenn> ah whoops a bit of selective blindness on my part, sorry
22:48 < kanzure> but still, that's what I was wondering
22:49 < kanzure> you might have meant "bryan covered the bases by saying he's the one recommending it"
22:49 < fenn> ok, i just finished diaspora
22:51 < fenn> shooting people with introdus would make a great "non-violent" video game
23:10 < kanzure> (2008-07-24 22:11:26) kanzure: Hey.
23:10 < kanzure> (2008-07-24 22:11:32) Carissa: hello
23:10 < kanzure> (2008-07-24 22:11:41) Carissa: it works?
23:10 < kanzure> (2008-07-24 22:12:23) Carissa: it took me forever to figure out why this thing wouldn't work
23:10 < kanzure> (2008-07-24 22:12:46) Carissa: oh? were not on pidgin are we???????????///
23:11 < kanzure> (2008-07-24 22:12:51) Carissa has left the conversation.
23:11 < kanzure> (2008-07-24 22:14:11) kanzure: I'm on pidgin, but you might not be.
23:11 < kanzure> (2008-07-24 22:14:28) Carissa: it doesn't say i am
23:11 < kanzure> (2008-07-24 22:14:36) kanzure: Are you in gmail?
23:11 < kanzure> (2008-07-24 22:14:49) Carissa: no i'm on theinternet
23:11 < kanzure> (2008-07-24 22:14:58) kanzure: You're in gmail.
23:11 < kanzure> (2008-07-24 22:15:01) Carissa: no
23:11 < kanzure> How cute.
23:15 < fenn> uh, check your clock?
23:17 < fenn> "Aromantic asexual. And atheist! Triple A rating!"
23:17 < kanzure> wtf
23:18 < kanzure> my clock is wrong?
23:18 < kanzure> also, the p2pfoundation guy did Technocalyps, nsh
23:18 < kanzure> what an odd coincidence
23:19 < fenn> either that, or an insidious conspiracy
23:19 < kanzure> insidious conspiracy for 200 please
23:21 < fenn> your answer: "The richest collection of free modes available anywhere in the net and on the planet."
23:21 < fenn> what was the question?
23:24 < kanzure> where arez teh porns?
23:26 < fenn> http://thehomebased.com/?p=28
23:27 < fenn> i still can't figure out the 12th pic
23:28 < kanzure> what an oddly specific answer :-)
23:28 < kanzure> conspiracy!
23:41 < ybit> kanzure: haha, i´m assuming the above was an excerpt from you and your little sis ^^
23:42 < ybit> argh, i am indeed getting tired, hopefully i´ll get my provigil soon
23:42 < kanzure> yes, Carissa is she
23:42 < ybit> my mum just mentioning going to dubai, india for a vacation o_O
23:43 < ybit> i wouldn´t mind at all, but when she realizes that ´dubail´ is india, she´ll change her mind quickly
23:43 < kanzure> my mom's evil twin (or is that the other way around) was living in India a few years after living in Taiwan, China, Spain, England, all sorts of assbackwards places.
23:43 < ybit> that´s cool, but spain and england aren´t assbackwards :)
23:43 < kanzure> on the contrary
23:44 < kanzure> ever take a dump in England?
23:44 < kanzure> in a toilet
23:44 < ybit> lol
23:44 < ybit> i have not
23:44 < kanzure> exactly
23:44 < ybit> lol
23:44 < ybit> but i know people who have (besides you) :)
23:44 < kanzure> I haven't.
23:44 < ybit> they don´t have backwards asses
23:45 < ybit> heh
23:45 < kanzure> backwards arses
23:45 < kanzure> fine
23:45 < ybit> getting english on me are you?
23:45 < kanzure> i bloody well ought to
23:45 < ybit> i´m tasked with choosing a vacation resort
23:45 < kanzure> Austin, Texas.
23:46 < kanzure> or Bloomington, Indiana and you can bug fenn
23:46  * ybit looks for resorts in spain
23:47 < ybit> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Seaside_resorts
23:48 < ybit> bah
23:48 < ybit> spain doesn´t have any nice resorts
23:49 < kanzure> I think I'll give up on attention
23:49 < kanzure> bullshit idea anyway