--- Day changed Wed Aug 20 2008
02:07 < kanzure> why do they make it hard to steal these papers
02:22 < willPow3r> it gives their it departments something to do
02:22 < kanzure> they have it departments??
02:23 < willPow3r> IT
02:23 < kanzure> yes, I know what it is
02:23 < fenn> who's on first
02:23 < kanzure> who?
02:23 < fenn> WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION
02:24 < kanzure> then who's on second?
03:14 < kanzure> Hey Phreedom.
03:14 < Phreedom> hi
03:58 < kanzure> Hey chizu.
04:02 < kanzure> http://colorforth.com/
04:05 < kanzure> http://forthworks.com/c4th
04:08 < fenn> its like python, but less powerful
04:09 < fenn> and seriously, what's with that font?
04:10 < willPow3r_> whats wrong with comic sans?
06:16 < marainein> hi
06:53 < willPow3r_> whats up marainein 
06:53 < marainein> hey willPow3r_
06:54 < marainein> have i met you before?
06:56 < marainein> if not, then hi
06:57 < marainein> what sort of things are you interested in?
06:57 < willPow3r_> neural engineering
06:58 < marainein> can you tell me what exactly that is?
06:59 < willPow3r_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_engineering
07:00 < willPow3r_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroprosthetics
07:02 < marainein> are you an amateur neural engineer, or pro?
07:03 < willPow3r_> student, actually
07:05 < marainein> me too
07:05 < marainein> studying neuroscience?
07:10 < willPow3r_> yep
07:10 < willPow3r_> where are you studying?
07:13 < marainein> molecular biology
07:13 < marainein> mainly interested in rejuvenation therapies, aubrey de grey, etc
07:13 < marainein> although other stuff also holds interest for me
07:14 < willPow3r_> biogerontology
07:14 < marainein> but i have to concentrate on something, and life extension seemed to be the right thing to take care of first
07:14 < marainein> yup
18:26 < kanzure> wtf
18:26 < kanzure> Stewart Brand did "Whole Earth Magazine" for the California 60s hippie communes
18:26 < kanzure> :)
18:32 < fenn> it was sort of its own culture
18:34 < kanzure> does this mean I'm a hippie?
19:15 < fenn> let me know if you figure that out
21:27 < kanzure> http://collabedit.com/
21:27 < kanzure> real time collaborative writing via xmlhttprequests ?
21:28 < kanzure> http://collabedit.com/display?id=99f0f47a50856b95e2fd8447667db9f2
21:28 < kanzure> kind of hard to figure out who's writing what
21:32 < nsh> DOIN IT WRONG
21:32  * nsh thinks anything involves xmlrpc must be doing it wrong by default
21:32 < nsh> , checks
21:34 < fenn> what's wrong with xmlrpc?
21:35 < nsh> i don't know; what's right with it?
21:37 < nsh> nah, i guess i was too quick to judge
21:37 < nsh> if they got rid of the xml and the rpc parts, it's actually a nice implimentation
21:38 < fenn> ah, so.
21:38 < kanzure> rpc?
21:38 < fenn> remote procedure call
21:38 < nsh> remote procedure call
21:39 < fenn> its a way of moving data around
21:39 < nsh> which is techbunkum-talk for "request"
21:39 < nsh> and xml which is web-fetishism for "structure data"
21:39 < kanzure> wikipedia is surprisingly unhelpful here
21:39 < kanzure> is it just an abstract concept?
21:39 < nsh> so, a way of requesting structuer data with minimal overhead
21:39 < nsh> is a pretty good, if trivial, idea
21:39 < kanzure> like, wget the data struct?
21:39 < nsh> could look at it like that
21:40 < fenn> rpc is an old unix protocol for inter-process communication
21:40 < kanzure> oh
21:40 < kanzure> x server to app communication?
21:40 < kanzure> and such?
21:40 < bkero> Sort of
21:40 < fenn> its like dcop
21:40 < bkero> App to app communication
21:40 < nsh> except doing anything with xml is just asking for some idiot to "EXTENSIBILISE" it
21:40 < kanzure> hm.
21:40 < nsh> into some clunky pile of balls
21:40  * nsh checks SOAP to confirm suspicions
21:40 < kanzure> of course throwing collabedit.com into a browser is rather stupid
21:41 < kanzure> it should be a standalone app IMHO
21:41 < nsh> "SOAP once stood for 'Simple Object Access Protocol' but this acronym was dropped with Version 1.2 of the standard, as it was considered to be misleading."
21:41 < bkero> XMLRPC is for people who have huge boners about their Dewey-decimal organized book collection.
21:41 < fenn> well it seems to work for what it is
21:41  * nsh smiles
21:41 < nsh> i'm just a cynic. don't need to mind me :-)
21:41  * bkero is a bittered web 1.0 veteran.
21:42 < fenn> bkero: you're just jealous of my huge dewey decimal system
21:42 < bkero> fenn: That's exactly what it is.
21:42 < bkero> jealousy, not loathing
21:43 < nsh> loathing is a more refined sentiment, that takes years of studied practice
21:43 < nsh> i often feel that i am approaching the cusp of loathing
21:43 < fenn> fwiw i thought netscape was a step down from mosaic..
21:43 < nsh> but like all forms of enlightenment, the destination is ever one step further
21:43  * nsh thought SQL was a stepdown from flatfiles and perl
21:44 < fenn> hmm..
21:44 < kanzure> SQL isn't really a server query language
21:44 < kanzure> it's a "subcomponent of a server query language'
21:44 < kanzure> "
21:44 < bkero> It's structured query language
21:44  * kanzure smacks his head
21:45  * nsh watches more banal american television
21:45 < bkero> You should try using an ANSI complient SQL implementation. :)
21:45 < fenn> 60MB left on the paranoia agent download
21:46 < bkero> Is IE still based off of Mosaic?
21:47 < biopunk> isn't mozilla?
21:47 < kanzure> http://surfraw.alioth.debian.org/
21:47 < kanzure>  Surfraw - Shell Users' Revolutionary Front Rage Against the Web
21:47 < bkero> Er, no.
21:47 < kanzure> 'Surfraw provides a fast unix command line interface to a variety of popular WWW search engines and other artifacts of power. It reclaims google, altavista, babelfish, dejanews, freshmeat, research index, slashdot and many others from the false-prophet, pox-infested heathen lands of html-forms, placing these wonders where they belong, deep in unix heartland, as god loving extensions to the shell.'
21:47 < bkero> Mozilla uses the gecko rendering engine.
21:48 < biopunk> I thought mosaic becam that
21:48 < biopunk> became
21:48 < kanzure> wait, are we seriously all awake at the same time? wtf?
21:48 < bkero> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trident_(layout_engine)
21:48 < biopunk> hehe
21:48 < biopunk> bkero: checking
21:49 < fenn> netscape/mozilla just covertly swooped on mosaic hq and kidnapped all their programmers, but it doesnt contain any mosaic code
21:49 < kanzure> I was hoping to use Gecko, KHTML, GtkHTML, WebKit or "that other one" once for 'my own browser'
21:49 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/projects/browsehack/tabtabtab.html
21:49 < kanzure> what I want is a fully scriptable browser that isn't single threaded and that doesn't suck
21:49 < bkero> I used skipstone for a long time because I didn't want to install GTK.
21:50 < biopunk> "Mosaic's direct descendent on the coder line, via Marc Andreessen, was Netscape Navigator. Netscape Navigator's code descendent was Mozilla Firefox.
21:50 < bkero> kanzure: Have you looked into links v2?
21:50 < kanzure> I want something that manly and that can handle the hundreds of tabs I have open
21:50 < biopunk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_(browser)
21:50 < kanzure> bkero: links2? yeus
21:50 < kanzure> yes
21:50 < kanzure> wait, maybe not
21:50 < bkero> kanzure: Firefox 3 has 45 tabs open on my laptop right now. 21% cpu, 173MB ram.
21:50 < kanzure> dillo, emc, links, links2, emacs shell line browser thingy, ...
21:51 < kanzure> hahah
21:51 < kanzure> 45 tabs
21:51 < kanzure> you're a lightweight :)
21:51 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-03-23_autoscholar.png <--- 
21:52 < kanzure> anyway, it's silly how browsers are written
21:52 < kanzure> of course, the web isn't any better
21:52 < kanzure> not inspiring the best of human thought obviously
21:52 < bkero> kanzure: You could start by ditching kde. :P
21:53 < kanzure> probably
21:53 < bkero> That's just a personal nitpick.
21:53  * kanzure had to do a vertical tab bar hack to kde's kdebase kicker thingy. Didn't submit the patch yet ... it's been five months. Should probably look into this.
21:53 < bkero> I liked E17, WindowMaker, GNUStep, XFCE(to a lesser extent), ion3, and now i'm a wmii whore.
21:53 < kanzure> I used to really like fvwm95
21:54 < bkero> fvwm95 is what I would give to my mother if she had some computer training 10 years ago, and had only seen a windows 95 computer.
21:55  * biopunk is trying to find a way to rationalize buying an eee pc
21:55 < kanzure> I have your rationalization
21:55 < kanzure> just a sec
21:56 < bkero> http://xkcd.com/413/
21:57 < biopunk> hehehe
21:58 < kanzure> http://www.asciilifeform.com/paralleleye/eye.html
21:58 < nsh> kanzure++ for surfraw
21:58 < kanzure> I think he wired it up to his eeepc
21:58 < kanzure> nsh: hell yeah
21:58 < fenn> surfraw doesn't really work anymore, all the url's have changed in the course of time
21:58 < fenn> (unless someone fixed it)
21:59 < kanzure> http://www.eventhorizons.com/projects/P4/p4.html
21:59 < kanzure> right
21:59 < nsh> i'd have thought it would check for updates from a user-collaborative wiki thing
21:59 < kanzure> it's not that easy, nsh
21:59 < nsh> meh
21:59 < nsh> everything's easy
21:59 < kanzure> it's easy to change the output of your website
22:00 < kanzure> screen scraping enthusiasts know this.
22:00 < nsh> sure
22:00 < nsh> but
22:00 < nsh> that's why there should be a firefox extension
22:00 < nsh> that reports these changes
22:00 < nsh> as firefox is connected to an intelligent html parsing device
22:00 < nsh> (human)
22:00 < kanzure> wah, firefox?
22:00 < nsh> opera
22:00 < nsh> whatever
22:01 < kanzure> no, you understand that this isn't a browser, right?
22:01 < nsh> point is, use people to get around changes to output interface
22:01 < nsh> yes i know
22:01 < kanzure> oh
22:01 < kanzure> I see what you mean
22:01 < kanzure> just track what the users are doing
22:01 < nsh> yeah
22:01 < nsh> there should really be a central database
22:01 < kanzure> which can be used to script stuff like perl's cpan's WWW::Mechanize
22:01 < kanzure> central repo like cpan or greasemonkey or something.
22:01 < nsh> that browsers report to, to get around htmlcruft
22:01 < nsh> right
22:01 < kanzure> bugmenot and such.
22:01  * nsh nods
22:02 < nsh> cut through the web
22:02 < nsh> for great justice and so on and so forth
22:02  * nsh checks some surfraw stuffs
22:02 < kanzure> supposedly browsers have the 'input form wizards' that automatically fill the forms out, but this is the suck
22:02 < kanzure> I was going to throw autoscholar into surfraw, but then realized I hadn't written it yet
22:02 < fenn> heh
22:03 < fenn> if you know how get/post works it's quite easy to fabricate any form-based query
22:03 < kanzure> right
22:03  * kanzure does it all the time
22:03 < kanzure> actually, on that note, twitter is one that is hard to fabricate
22:03 < kanzure> I did it once, but then when trying it more recently I failed completely
22:03 < fenn> are there any tools for vivisecting flash viewers?
22:03 < kanzure> I went through all the motions -- fake user-agent, login with the cookies, etc.
22:04 < biopunk> Private Eye P4 Head-Mounted Display
22:04 < kanzure> fenn: might be with the 'hex' community (the flash one, not the real hex)
22:04 < biopunk> it dispays the screen on the reina?
22:04 < kanzure> biopunk: Nah. It's a HUD.
22:05 < biopunk> so.. on glasses?.. I can't find a reflector
22:05 < kanzure> http://profile.ak.facebook.com/profile5/1282/36/s5725275_6802.jpg
22:05 < kanzure> Stanislav Datskovskiy
22:05 < kanzure> it's a screen
22:06 < kanzure> the EEEs are small enough to make a very good wearable
22:06 < kanzure> connected to that sort of screen :)
22:06 < nsh> EEEs?
22:06 < biopunk> kanz: yeah.. don't huds display on a semi opaque plate?
22:06 < bkero> Sort of
22:06 < kanzure> biopunk wants to rationalize getting one of the Asus EEE PCs.
22:06 < bkero> I had one
22:07 < bkero> Small VGA LCDs like that are exceedingly expensive. :(
22:07 < kanzure> biopunk: oh, I didn't know
22:07 < kanzure> yep
22:07 < kanzure> and apparently this had some nasty awesome resolution
22:07 < bkero> much more than an eee
22:07 < kanzure> but this was before the modern LCDs and such
22:07 < kanzure> but for some reason had more resolution
22:07 < kanzure> odd, eh?
22:07 < biopunk> and it's from 89
22:07 < bkero> Yea
22:07 < kanzure> 'The Private Eye P4 is a monochrome head mounted display manufactured by Reflection Technology in the early 1990's.  The company seems to have gone out of business, but a sales brochure describing the device is available here, and a full set of developer's documentation lives here (permanent mirror here.)  The display was distinguished by its relatively low price and high resolution (modern color micro-LCD HMD's are available with less than half the a
22:08 < kanzure> 720x280
22:08 < bkero> Heh surfraw is in portage.
22:08 < fenn> nasty awesome!
22:08 < bkero> THat's lower than 640x480
22:08 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20050311025840/http://www.vr-systems.ndtilda.co.uk/priveye1.htm
22:08 < biopunk> i guess it shines a lazer on the retina
22:08 < bkero> In terms of pixel density
22:08 < kanzure> wait, there are LCDs doing 640x480 now?
22:08 < kanzure> I mean,
22:08 < kanzure> small ones :)
22:08 < bkero> Yea
22:09 < bkero> Most are lifted from small projectors.
22:09 < bkero> cell phones can do 640x480 too
22:09 < fenn> i think a DLP mirror and RGB LED would make an awesome HUD
22:09 < biopunk> I think the next generation of consolegames will come with goggles
22:09 < kanzure> hah
22:09 < fenn> i have some small mems mirrors but no documentation
22:09 < kanzure> biopunk: they were saying that in the 70s
22:10 < kanzure> there are many pictures of people looking like dorks with those vr goggles
22:10 < kanzure> from that time period.
22:10 < bkero> Hahahaha  * You can try some searches, for example: * $ sr ask why is jeeves gay?
22:10 < fenn> i'd rather have a saiya-jin battle meter
22:10 < biopunk> but they are cool.. and it's a killer app.. like the wii movement sensoring thingies
22:10 < kanzure> fenn: his power level is over nine thousand!!
22:11 < bkero> Impossible!
22:12 < nsh> LAZERS?! ON MY RETINALS? 
22:12 < fenn> obviously i used the wrong terminology, so what's it really called?
22:12 < nsh> where do i sign up?
22:12 < fenn> nsh: your local army navy recruitment center
22:12 < kanzure> saiyan
22:12 < biopunk> fenn: in the 90:ies
22:12 < nsh> oh
22:12 < nsh> they won't let me in anymore
22:12 < kanzure> power level scouter thingy
22:12 < kanzure> hm
22:13 < biopunk> or the swedish army actually.. they had a system like that inside an old MBT
22:13 < kanzure> http://www.myfavoritegames.com/dragonball-z/Info/Scouters.htm
22:13 < kanzure> 'Scouters - were created by Frieza's scientists. It was made to help determine how strong a person was. It's worn around one eye and can detect power levels from miles away. It gives the power level in the form of a number, and so they compare the number to their own to see where they stand if they were to fight that person.'
22:13 < fenn> scouter? did they do a new translation or something?
22:13  * kanzure remembers "Understand" (Ted Chiang)
22:14 < kanzure> it would be neat to do that geospatially and map "power users" (surfraw users?) 
22:14 < bkero> Are we seriously discussing dragonball z scouters?
22:14 < kanzure> yes
22:14 < nsh> apparantly...
22:14 < nsh> nothing's off the table with good ol' kanz
22:14 < bkero> comedy
22:14 < kanzure> I used to run a dbz website
22:14  * kanzure hides.
22:14 < fenn> ugh that web page was talking at me!!
22:14 < nsh> oh cool
22:14 < biopunk> (no wonder I was lost)
22:14 < nsh> where?
22:14 < bkero> kanzure: I used to imm a dbz mud. ;)
22:14 < kanzure> oh crap
22:14 < kanzure> I probably showed up in it at one point, who knows
22:14 < nsh> TALK AT ME INTERNETS
22:15 < bkero> MUDs are old shit.
22:15 < kanzure> I was all over the place.
22:15 < nsh> why doesn't the internet talk at you in that robowoman voice from the 80's already?
22:15 < kanzure> yeah, there were still some muds running in 2002
22:15 < nsh> i thought that was where all technology was heading
22:15 < bkero> I ran it for like 6 years.  I still have some source of it on a cd in my cd case.
22:15 < bkero> kanzure: I ran this until about 2003-2004.
22:15 < nsh> you know, that one that was in every film for about a decade
22:15 < biopunk> people play muds on facebook
22:15 < biopunk> big there
22:15 < bkero> That doesn't count.
22:15 < kanzure> Right, that's what my website was like.
22:15 < kanzure> web-based 'rpg' 
22:15 < kanzure> and it sucked
22:16 < fenn> mud on facebook? wtf
22:16 < nsh> i thought facebook *was* an MUD
22:16 < bkero> Fuck web-based RPGs.
22:16  * nsh feels conned
22:16 < bkero> I need to develop a MUD interface to facebook.
22:16 < kanzure> bkero: yes, but I didn't have that sentiment back in the day
22:16 < kanzure> I was too young to realize how much the web sucked.
22:16 < fenn> mud is like IRC but you can kill the other people :)
22:16 < bkero> That way I don't need to use their shitty web interface.
22:16 < biopunk> they don't call it muds.. it's stuff like 'Wampire slayer'
22:16 < nsh> isn't that just viral inanity?
22:17 < kanzure> yes
22:17 < biopunk> it's a new generation
22:17 < bkero> I need to design a MUD interface to various web sites.
22:17 < bkero> Like amazon
22:17 < kanzure> I wonder if it's worth hacking a gameboy console or a lcd from an old phone
22:17 < kanzure> a MUD for amazon?
22:17 < kanzure> how would that work?
22:17 < fenn> that's not a bad idea really
22:17 < kanzure> "You've encountered yet another wish list!"
22:17 < biopunk> stop... now
22:17 < bkero> consider wish list
22:17 < kanzure> "you've encountered bad html, error"
22:18 < fenn> don't even think about it!!
22:18 < bkero> go west to deviantart
22:18 < kanzure> heh
22:18 < kanzure> xkcd map of the internets
22:18 < bkero> quaff unused menstrual blood
22:18 < fenn> you feel ... emo
22:18 < bkero> ACK!  IVE BEEN POISONED!
22:19 < kanzure> actually, even the screen from my digital camera would work
22:19 < nsh> YOU HAVE BEEN EXILED TO LIVEJOURNAL
22:19 < fenn> bkero attempts to flee, but the apathy is too strong!
22:19 < bkero> cast surliness
22:19 < biopunk> you feel weak
22:19 < nsh> actually
22:19 < nsh> you could use the xkcd internet map
22:19 < nsh> hmm
22:20 < nsh> this idea should not be drawing me in...
22:20 < biopunk> for a nethack maybe
22:20 < nsh> oh
22:20 < nsh> what's that game
22:20 < nsh> dwarf fortress?
22:20 < bkero> yea
22:20 < nsh> keep meaning to have a go
22:20 < nsh> looks funny
22:20 < fenn> hmm i should sell scouters on ebay
22:20 < bkero> Try robotfindskitetn
22:20 < bkero> Infinitely better.
22:21 < nsh> *noted*
22:21 < bkero> fenn: You could use an IR themometer with some maths attached.
22:21 < bkero> The idiots wouldn't be able to tell a difference.
22:21 < nsh> uh, is it infinitely better because it exists only in your mind, bkero?
22:21 < bkero> nsh: no
22:21 < fenn> he's emitting over 9 gigawatts!
22:21 < bkero> games-misc/robotfindskitten
22:21 < nsh> ah
22:21 < bkero> Or RFK for short.
22:21 < bkero> There's a version for every platform out there.
22:22 < biopunk> the funny thing is the experience was every bit as real as people experience the MMORGS now
22:22  * nsh didn't notice obvious typo
22:22 < nsh> was like, robot finds kite tn?
22:22 < bkero> No sir.  Robots and kittens
22:22 < nsh> ++
22:23 < bkero> robotfindskitten v1.4142135.349                                                                                                  
22:23 < bkero> "Go back to Libraria!", says Pat Schroeder.
22:23 < fenn> i think MUDs permanently warped my brain
22:23 < nsh> come to think of it, why *isn't* the web implemented in ascii
22:23 < nsh> http://www.robotfindskitten.org/ is the nicest website i've visited all day
22:24 < kanzure> 'yet another zen simulation' ?
22:24 < kanzure> hm
22:24 < bkero> In this game, you are robot (#). Your job is to find kitten. This task                                                           
22:24 < bkero> is complicated by the existence of various things which are not kitten.                                                          
22:24 < bkero> Robot must touch items to determine if they are kitten or not. The game                                                          
22:24 < bkero> ends when robotfindskitten.
22:27 < biopunk> ..and steps on it
22:28 < biopunk> I'm still fascinated by the fact that simulators can be used to learn real skills
22:28 < bkero> Kittens are nice! Robots don't step on them.
22:29 < fenn> hmm @ http://www.dvdactive.com/images/news/screenshot/2006/1/dor
22:29 < biopunk> bkero: yes they do... when the screen is turned odd
22:29 < biopunk> off
22:29 < kanzure> image unavailable?
22:29 < fenn> oops http://www.dvdactive.com/images/news/screenshot/2006/1/doragoni3.jpg
22:29 < kanzure> hm.
22:30 < fenn> no info on it though
22:30 < biopunk> It looks like it may not be functional
22:30 < fenn> yeah
22:30 < kanzure> but
22:30 < kanzure> you can mod it
22:30 < kanzure> easily make the speaker and mic work,
22:30 < fenn> i'm just trying to figure out how to attach the earpiece without looking dumb
22:31 < kanzure> like hair behind it?:
22:31 < kanzure> what's up with that in the pic anyway?
22:31 < fenn> eh?
22:31 < kanzure> normally people do direct ear to headphone contact
22:33 < biopunk> few things are totally normal in Japan
22:34 < fenn> this might work, but nobody would recognize it: http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc23/Burningvegeta/KrudulePurpleMFG-SaiyanElite.png
22:35 < kanzure> I wonder if somebody with myostatin deficiency would look like a character right out of dbz
22:35 < fenn> yes
22:35 < kanzure> interesting.
22:36 < fenn> add antigravity field and no shampoo for a month and their hair would look right also
22:36 < kanzure> I think some fans might have already solved that one
22:36 < biopunk> pong is a superower of sorts
22:37 < biopunk> superpower
22:37 < fenn> pong?
22:37 < kanzure> bah, just do tien
22:37 < kanzure> anyway
22:37 < biopunk> fenn: slang for strong smell.. I think.. or used to be
22:38 < kanzure> http://www.videogamesblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/tien-in-dragon-ball-z-burst-limit.jpg
22:38 < kanzure> I can't quite figure out what I would do with an lcd three or four inches in front of me
22:38 < biopunk> ( http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pong )
22:39 < kanzure> unless I have a full keyboard and an internet connection
22:39 < kanzure> the internet connections really, really cost
22:39 < kanzure> $60/mo for a crap (unlimited) connection
22:39 < biopunk> kanz: see.. i have the same problem with the eee pc
22:41 < kanzure> I haven't tried the onboard keyboard so I can't quite tell you what it's like
22:41 < kanzure> I've seen a few people with them though
22:42 < fenn> just use 802.11 that's more or less ubiquitous?
22:42 < kanzure> eh?
22:42 < biopunk> making pokemons could be a nice biohacker project
22:42 < kanzure> not around here :)
22:42 < kanzure> biopunk: that's a huge genetic engineering project
22:42 < fenn> instead of a gsm modem
22:43 < biopunk> kanz: one could start with the easy ones.. like make a squirrel into lickitung
22:44 < fenn> and who wouldnt want that: http://www.worth1000.com/entries/171500/171599bHjg_w.jpg
22:44 < biopunk> hehehe.. girls?
22:44 < kanzure> biopunk: ah, so you just mean "almost like the characters"
22:44 < fenn> umm... no comment
22:45 < bkero> kanzure: Do you really want to look like a dbz character?
22:45 < kanzure> bkero: No, we were talking about displays.
22:45 < kanzure> wearable computers
22:45 < bkero> Oh
22:45 < fenn> i was designing a HUD and it ended up looking sorta like a dbz "scouter"
22:45  * bkero was just looking at the dominant feature--the hair.
22:45 < fenn> so why not go all the way
22:45 < kanzure> bkero: however, a myostatin deficiency would be ok
22:46 < fenn> supposedly i look like vegeta :\
22:46 < bkero> lol terrible receeding hairline?
22:46  * bkero looks like bkero.
22:46  * fenn grumbles
22:46  * bkero is reflexive.
22:47 < fenn> kanzure: couldnt you just make some molecule that inhibits myostatin?
22:47 < fenn> instead of going full gene therapy
22:47 < fenn> monoclonal antibody for instance, but i'm sure there's more conventional chemistry ways to do it
22:48 < kanzure> yes
22:48 < bkero> lol
22:48 < kanzure> apparently there's one like that already in fda testing
22:48 < kanzure> so maybe we should just go look at the patents
22:48 < kanzure> and see what they're doing
22:48 < kanzure> http://www.biocompare.com/matrixsc/3194/2/6/23678/Myostatin.html
22:48 < fenn> i wonder what the side effects are
22:48 < kanzure> attractive women
22:49 < kanzure> need to eat ridiculous amounts of protein?
22:49 < bkero> Interestingly, whippets with the homozygous deletion also had an unusual body shape, with a broader head, pronounced overbite, shorter legs, and thicker tails.
22:50 < fenn> but they are also bigger overall, so are the legs shorter proportionally or absolutely?
22:50 < kanzure> 'As of 2005, no myostatin-inhibiting drugs for humans are on the market, but an antibody genetically engineered to neutralize myostatin was developed by New Jersey pharmaceutical company Wyeth.[20] The inhibitor is called MYO-029 and recently underwent testing however the results have not yet been made public.[21][22][23] Some athletes, eager to get their hands on such drugs, turn to the internet, where fake "myostatin blockers" are being sold.'
22:50 < kanzure> hm, New Jersey
22:50 < kanzure> we have a sympathizer there
22:51 < kanzure> http://www.wyeth.com/
22:51 < biopunk> if one could just remove myostatin by filtering the blood it would be the perfect doping
22:51  * nsh reads http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28784?issue=4228&special=2001 again
22:51 < kanzure> http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/20441.php
22:51 < nsh> because sometimes you have to
22:52 < nsh> recombinant antibody? 
22:52 < kanzure> Media - Gerald Burr - Wyeth Pharmaceuticals - 484-865-5138
22:52 < kanzure> Investor - Justin Victoria - Wyeth - 973-660-5340
22:52 < nsh> there's a tiny little irish voice in my head saying "well there, what could possibly go wrong, eh?"
22:52 < kanzure> http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?term=MYO-029
22:53 < bkero> What does removing myostatin do to muscle stem cells generation?
22:53 < nsh> oh, doesn't mean what i thought it might
22:54 < nsh> it's a growth factor iirc
22:54 < kanzure> what's Stamulumab?
22:54 < kanzure> aha
22:54 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamulumab
22:54 < kanzure> 'Stamulumab (MYO-029[1]) is an experimental myostatin inhibiting drug developed by Wyeth Pharmaceuticals for the treatment of muscular dystrophy.Stamulumab (MYO-029[1]) is an experimental myostatin inhibiting drug developed by Wyeth Pharmaceuticals for the treatment of muscular dystrophy.'
22:54 < nsh> "Myostatin (formerly known as Growth differentiation factor 8) is a growth factor that limits muscle tissue growth, i.e. higher concentrations of myostatin in the body may cause the individual to have less developed muscles. The myostatin protein is produced primarily in skeletal muscle cells, circulates in the blood and lymph and acts on muscle tissue, apparently by slowing down the development of muscle stem cells."
22:55 < nsh> -WP
22:55 < kanzure> 'However, as of January 24, 2008, the study has been accepted by a peer-reviewed journal and publication is expected "in the next few months"'
22:55 < bkero> what does the body benefit by producing myostatin?
22:56 < bkero> Or is it just a byproduct?
22:56 < kanzure> limits to growth can be useful
22:56 < fenn> bkero: benefits by not turning into a high metabolism freak
22:56 < biopunk> I guess from an evolutionery perspective the body can go longer without food
22:56 < bkero> True
22:57 < fenn> also perhaps your heart isnt big enough to supply those muscles with oxygen?
22:57 < kanzure> 'ACVR2B is similar to Stamulumab but is not an antibody; rather, it provides a portion of the molecule to which myostatin would normally bind thus preventing the myostatin from binding with the actual molecule'
22:57 < bkero> But wouldn't your heart also grow stronger?
22:57 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACVR2B
22:57 < kanzure> looks like that's something we could grow in a bioreactor
22:57 < biopunk> apparently mysostatin doesn't effect the heart
22:58 < bkero> So they're just getting rid of the receptors instead of the myostatin.
22:58 < kanzure> no
22:58 < nsh> also
22:58 < kanzure> ACVR2B is the gene for the receptor, it seems
22:58 < nsh> i is almost certain to have more than one role
22:58 < nsh> *it
22:58 < biopunk> ..yeah
22:59 < nsh> which is why i'm always a little dubious about pharmatwats trying to knock things out
22:59 < biopunk> I would like to know a lot more before I'd start messing with receptors in myself
22:59 < biopunk> biohacking is funny that way
22:59 < kanzure> no, you don't mess with your natural membrane receptor proteins
23:00 < kanzure> this is just something floating around in the blood
23:00 < biopunk> there are unexpected outcomes all the time 
23:00 < bkero> Which is why there are test animals. :)
23:00 < biopunk> hehe
23:00 < bkero> kanzure: Do most animals produce mysotatin?
23:00 < biopunk> "The animals are there for us to eat, wear and experiment on"
23:00 < fenn> test animals can't show long term effects such as immune sensitization
23:01 < nsh> yeah..
23:01 < fenn> i'd hate to be injecting acvr2b and then have my immune system attack it
23:01 < bkero> That would make you feel pretty shitty. :/
23:02 < biopunk> filtering the blood is safer
23:02 < nsh> i have sinking feelings about this kinda thing...
23:02 < bkero> nsh: proactive genetic engineering?
23:02 < fenn> it's not genetic engineering
23:02 < nsh> (unexpected long-term immnological effects of novel treatments)
23:02 < bkero> Or fucking with body chemsitry
23:03 < bkero> (i was referring to the genetic mutation of doggies from the wikipedia article)
23:03 < nsh> there's a fine line between paranoia and recklessness
23:03 < biopunk> it's happening and we have to deal with it
23:04 < biopunk> I wonder how electricity felt to people when that was new
23:04 < fenn> i think the issue is that getting 'buff' isnt a serious enough goal to do risky things like messing with hormone levels
23:04 < bkero> biopunk: ever see edisons demonstration on how easy it is for AC to kill an elephant?
23:04 < bkero> There's video of it floating around online.
23:04 < fenn> but hey, people take testosterone supplements all the time, it's probably a lot worse (since it affects your behavior also)
23:04 < biopunk> no ;).. must have been a hoot at the time
23:05 < biopunk> yeah.. the thing is if it can be done, there will always be people who will want to do it
23:05  * nsh hates edison
23:05 < bkero> People will extract blood, put it in the fridge, and reinject it later for performance benefit. :P
23:05 < biopunk> human cloning is a good example
23:05 < fenn> so, maybe myostatin-blockers will end up being safer and having less side effects than all the testosterone boosting supplements
23:05 < nsh> bkero, finnish guy won a lot of running events by doing that
23:05 < nsh> iirc
23:05 < bkero> Yup
23:05 < bkero> It's banned now
23:06 < biopunk> blood doping
23:06 < fenn> they should just ban athletics
23:06 < kanzure> Most of all animals, yes, produce myostatin.
23:06 < fenn> ban all athletes!
23:06 < bkero> I'd like for them to allow all sorts of steriods and dopings one year just to see all the freaks that compete.
23:07 < fenn> bkero: and put them all in a gladiator ring, battle to the death
23:07 < bkero> Haha
23:07 < kanzure> I agree that 'getting buff' is not a serious enough goal
23:07 < nsh> oh man
23:07 < nsh> they should have a freakolympics
23:07 < nsh> neither's living forever, imho
23:07 < nsh> well serious, maybe
23:07 < biopunk> hehe.. that elephant is smoking
23:07 < bkero> Yup
23:07 < nsh> justifiable...
23:07 < fenn> winner gets to be governor of california
23:07 < bkero> *newsflash* ac kills people
23:07  * nsh chuckles
23:08 < fenn> bkero: not if it's over ~1kHz
23:08 < nsh> of course, the argument was over what to use in power lines
23:08 < biopunk> really?
23:08 < fenn> (not that i'm suggesting to try it out)
23:08 < nsh> so the killing elephant 'demonstration' was just stupid
23:08 < biopunk> i'll send lickitung
23:08 < bkero> I'll send magicarp
23:08 < fenn> pikachu, i choose you!
23:09 < bkero> biopunk: http://pown.it/1135
23:09 < biopunk> damn I hate picachu
23:10 < biopunk> bkero: hehe.. i get it now
23:10 < bkero> splash
23:11 < bkero> So work just gave me a shiny stainless steel thermas.  I'm thinking about making it into a capacitor.
23:11 < nsh> thermos flask?
23:11 < bkero> yea
23:11 < nsh> that would be cool
23:11 < bkero> I can probably get a farad out of it
23:11 < nsh> oh, i wonder how the ultracapacitor guys are getting on
23:12 < bkero> Not very good in terms of storing energy. :/
23:12 < biopunk> it sounds a bit dangorous
23:12 < bkero> (for periods of time)
23:12 < nsh> they were supposed to be making batteries obsolete like two years ago
23:12  * nsh hates hype
23:12 < bkero> Yea.  Does your laptop run on an ultracapacitor?
23:12 < fenn> a thermos won't be a farad.. maybe a nanofarad
23:12 < bkero> What?
23:12 < fenn> 1F requires a huge amount of surface area
23:12 < bkero> Dude you can get 1 farad caps for car stereos, and they are about the same size as this theros.
23:12 < bkero> thermos
23:13 < fenn> they have like a square mile of aluminum foil inside
23:13 < bkero> lol
23:14 < nsh> yeah, farad is a crazy huge SI unit, iirc
23:14  * biopunk would like to to have good batteries with long lifespans now
23:15 < biopunk> ..or fuelcells
23:16 < fenn> bkero you can calculate it here http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/pplate.html
23:16 < nsh> mmm
23:16 < nsh> it'd be nice to be able to store energy as crystaline structure
23:16 < nsh> dilithium style
23:16 < nsh> well, hydrogen is a chore...
23:17 < fenn> i dont get the dilithium, you can store antihydrogen easily enough with UV lasers
23:17 < fenn> they pop positrons off it, giving the antihydrogen crystal a net charge, so you can just levitate it with charged plates
23:17 < fenn> or use other 'laser tweezer' effects
23:18 < nsh> probably weren't invented when star-trek was being thought up
23:18 < nsh> or at least, common knowledge
23:18 < fenn> the problem is turning the antimatter into electricity without killing yourself with the gamma rays and subatomic particles that come off it
23:19 < fenn> so, yeah. i'd settle for a methanol fuel cell
23:20 < fenn> star trek is so full of technical flaws it's not even worth talking about
23:20 < biopunk> maybe we're back to a methanol producing bioreactor then
23:20 < fenn> making methanol is easy, just heat wood in the absence of oxygen
23:20 < fenn> set a 55 gallon drum full of wood chips on top of a bonfire
23:21  * nsh wonders if we might transcend electricity sometime this century
23:21 < fenn> it's possible
23:21 < biopunk> electricity is a mode of transport
23:21 < fenn> electricity is useful for chemistry
23:21 < biopunk> and brains
23:22 < fenn> photonics is better for brains i think
23:22 < nsh> i mean specifically moving past electricity as the main way we manipulate energy
23:23 < nsh> not sure how it would be even possible, but i'm sure it might
23:23 < fenn> well, fiber optics are basically superconductors right?
23:23  * nsh nods
23:24 < nsh> but you can't transfer much power via optic fiber
23:24 < kanzure> some other subatomic particle physics perhaps/
23:24 < kanzure> ?
23:24 < fenn> why not?
23:24 < fenn> i beg to differ.. those tattoo blasting lasers use a fiber to transfer the beam to a hand held stylus
23:24 < nsh> i don't know; was an assumption
23:25 < fenn> (some of them use a periscope thingy though)
23:25  * nsh nods
23:25 < nsh> i think the reconversion would be the most difficult thing
23:25 < nsh> a laser beam in itself has a reasonably limited range of functions
23:25 < nsh> but i agree, it'd be the way to go about it
23:25 < nsh> light is just the exchange of subatomic momentum
23:25 < nsh> and anything we want to get done is transfer of momentum in some form or other
23:25 < fenn> if you expand your horizons a little bit to encompass the whole solar system, laser beams are a lot more attractive than electrical wires
23:26 < biopunk> lazers have huge military applications
23:26 < biopunk> if you can see it you can kill it
23:26 < fenn> laser sails (like a solar sail) can be used to convert light to momentum
23:26 < nsh> and (apparantly) plausable deny it
23:27 < fenn> you know those radiometer toys? white/black vanes in a vacuum dome that spin
23:27  * nsh is a little dubious about that.. not many people will have the ACME giant space-based laser gizmo
23:27  * nsh shakes head
23:27 < nsh> oh right
23:27 < nsh> yeah, uses light pressure
23:28 < nsh> well, heat differential actually, if i remember correctly
23:28 < nsh> yeah
23:28 < biopunk> isn't it heat?
23:28  * nsh nods
23:28 < biopunk> yeah
23:28 < nsh> it was originally supposed to be light pressure
23:28 < fenn> if the vacuum were good enough it would work with light pressure
23:28  * nsh nods
23:28 < nsh> hence light sails
23:28 < biopunk> one side is white the other black
23:29 < fenn> another prospect is like the 'source' in 'the diamond age'
23:30 < fenn> i read some investment scam with plausible science behind it.. the idea was to use aluminum/air batteries to transfer huge quantities of electricity across the ocean with no loss
23:31 < nsh> hrmm
23:31 < biopunk> in a tanker?
23:31 < fenn> yeah, building sized batteries
23:31 < fenn> i forget what the magic technology breakthrough supposedly was
23:32 < fenn> you could use some kind of organic molecule like NADP as a charge carrier
23:32 < biopunk> buckets of atp
23:32 < fenn> instead of the nasty heavy metal vanadium, like the vanadium redox cell
23:33 < fenn> atp is hard to make and has a low-ish lifetime before it spontaneously dissociates (am i making this up?)
23:34 < nsh> sounds right
23:34 < fenn> google says half life of about 1 second
23:34 < biopunk> fat the then
23:34 < fenn> how about gasoline :)
23:35 < biopunk> yeah!
23:35 < fenn> large farms of algae would probably work for that
23:36 < nsh> don't you know it's made by geological processes!
23:36 < fenn> OTEC mariculture stuff, or iron seeding
23:36  * nsh expects to see some degree of commercially-viable bioalgae in the next ten years
23:36 < biopunk> I'm amazed by the amount of organic matter that has gone into making oil.. I mean.. it's just a miniscule fraction of what has decayed through the ages.. and still it's an enormous amount.
23:37 < nsh> mm
23:37  * biopunk has been thinking about the timelines lately
23:39 < biopunk> timelines are interesting... I think recorded history is like 6000 years
23:39 < biopunk> but we stand on people that came before us all the way back into the procaryote world
23:40  * nsh smiles
23:40 < nsh> (most of them weren't technically "people", but that's not the point) it's does give one pause
23:40 < nsh> *it
23:41 < nsh> standing on the shoulders of goo
23:41 < biopunk> yes
23:41 < biopunk> 200 000 years is the going number now i think
23:42 < biopunk> The history we can remember is like 100 years, and on this we base our view of what we are as humans...
23:42 < biopunk> we go "Hey, we did bad things (like WW2) but we have learned and are different now"...
23:43 < biopunk> not really.. we are something else.. humans are something else
23:43 < biopunk> than can be understood by looking at the last say 300 years
23:44 < kanzure> Does anybody know why ScienceDirect has 1,988 different journals?
23:44 < kanzure> I know it's Elsevier .. are they the publishers of these journals?
23:44 < kanzure> or do they just interface and collect the papers?
23:44 < kanzure> what's going on here
23:45 < kanzure> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=BrowseListURL&_type=title&_title=all&content=journals&content=books&entitle=sub&entitle=nsub&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=108429&md5=05d5c0df5bc5c928a86b6f287ed26bfd
23:45 < kanzure> (big page)
23:45 < fenn> elsevier publishes a lot of journals, it might indeed be 1988
23:45 < fenn> 99% of journals are elsevier or wiley
23:45 < kanzure> I see.
23:46  * nsh isn't entirely sold on the popular idea that we're humans, anyway
23:47 < nsh> elsevier should be public-ised
23:47 < kanzure> nsh: shhh
23:47 < nsh> make the common property of all humanity
23:47 < kanzure> stop shouting so loudly
23:47 < kanzure> I'm working on it, I'm working on it
23:47  * biopunk thinks the trick is to understand what it means to be human, and that evolution is the clue
23:47 < nsh> sry
23:47 < fenn> biopunk: it's the economy, stupid
23:47 < biopunk> ...aaah ;)
23:47  * nsh smiles
23:48 < biopunk> Does anyone here know who david deangeo is?
23:48 < biopunk> deangelo
23:48 < kanzure> no
23:48 < biopunk> a pua guru
23:49 < biopunk> That community puts knowledge about evolution to good use
23:50 < biopunk> He once said "A beautiful woman is the most powerful force in the universe. They are the reason money gets made and people get up in the morning. Do you think Bill Gates would be the richest man in the world if he had gotten laid in high school?"
23:51 < biopunk> basically pussy is the reason men want money. 
23:51 < biopunk> ....and we're back to evolution
23:52 < fenn> um.. so why do women want money?
23:52 < kanzure> so I'll be doing sciencedirect and interscience today
23:52 < kanzure> interscience is silly and makes you click through 72 pages for the full list of journals
23:52 < kanzure> so I downloaded 72 pages, however now I have weird file names with the get request attached to the file name
23:53 < kanzure> I could just have been smarter and used --output-file=
23:53 < kanzure> but since I already have the files, doublebanging the server doesn't sound smart
23:53 < biopunk> Because money is a good indicator of how well tha man functions in a society
23:53 < kanzure> Gates doesn't function well
23:53 < biopunk> in society he does
23:54 < kanzure> people who stim are not considered socially functioning
23:54 < biopunk> he is a king, peopole obey him
23:55 < kanzure> http://www.autismspeaks.org/community/forums/showthread.php?t=5231
23:55 < kanzure> Anyway, there were some videos but I never remember seeing them.
23:55 < biopunk> (the woman who has offspring with him has an army of peope tending to the wellbeing of that offspring. Cause Gates commands that. )
23:56 < kanzure> not to mention the credit card hax0rs and the leet russians
23:56 < kanzure> with their financial botnets and so on
23:56 < kanzure> just saying :)
23:56 < kanzure> anyway, re my stupid files
23:56 < kanzure> what sort of awk script should I use?
23:57 < fenn> all this primate behaviour stuff is amazingly unmotivating
23:57 < kanzure> I could write some perl to process the file name
23:57 < kanzure> but that's stupid.
23:57 < kanzure> so I should do something simpler
23:57 < fenn> sed -I
23:58 < fenn> oops, hmm
23:58 < kanzure> dne
23:58 < kanzure> :(
23:58 < kanzure> it's okay, I have a better idea
23:58 < kanzure> how about viewing what's unique among all of the files via diff?
23:58 < fenn> oo try 'man rename'
23:58 < kanzure> ah
23:59 < kanzure> "Author: Larry Wall" yikes
23:59 < fenn> hey that's what perl was for wasnt it?
23:59 < kanzure> if debian had a full list of credits (like the "game over" screens) for the contributors, it sounds like it'd be mostly a list of ten guys
23:59 < fenn> renaming nasa reports or something
23:59 < kanzure> hah