--- Day changed Wed Aug 27 2008 00:16 < ybit> from earlier... http://www.improve-eu.info/develop.html 00:18 < kanzure> hurray for 8 am classes 00:19 * kanzure crashes 00:30 < willPow3r> i find that it's easier to just stay up all night than try to get up in time for an early class 00:36 < fenn> i find that it's easier to drop out of school and be a bum.. 00:37 < fenn> ybit: why would you use retinal implants when we already have RGB lasers and direct laser retinal displays? 00:38 < ybit> good question, i dunno 00:39 < ybit> i will in a few minutes though :) 00:39 < fenn> for that matter, why don't we see any DLP-based HMD's? 00:39 < fenn> DLP = high res MEMS mirror chips found in new projectors 00:39 < bkero> you mean old projectors 00:39 < bkero> I have one :P 00:39 < fenn> send it on over :0 00:39 < fenn> i want to shine it in my eye! 00:39 < bkero> Fuck off sir :P 00:40 < bkero> You want 2200 lumens in your eye? 00:40 < fenn> well, no, i was planning on substituting one of thoe RGB LED's 00:40 < bkero> It uses halogens :P 00:40 < bkero> or a halogen is hould say 00:41 < fenn> color wheel is stupid.. someone give me a multinational corporation so i can make stuff that doesn't suck 00:41 < bkero> fenn: I have bkero investments llc 00:42 < fenn> i have fenn-wants-money.com 00:42 < bkero> Based out of the hrp. We have offices in Oregon and a mailbox in the hrp 00:42 < fenn> what is hrp? 00:42 < bkero> Hood River Province 00:42 < bkero> Sorry 00:42 < bkero> Hutt 00:43 < bkero> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutt_River_Province_Principality 00:43 < fenn> HRPP! 00:43 < fenn> well, alrighty then 00:44 < fenn> today, DLP HMD's, tomorrow the galaxy! 00:45 * fenn goes back to writing his personal inventory software 00:51 < fenn> someone i'm helping out in #emc.. i liked the name of his website: http://www.civilizationfromscratch.org/blog/ 00:51 < kanzure> is this Alex? 00:51 < kanzure> civilization-in-a-box? 00:51 < fenn> tom owad 00:52 < kanzure> cool 00:52 < kanzure> a new guy 00:52 < kanzure> abduct him 00:52 < fenn> uh, wat do i say? 00:53 < kanzure> civilization from scratch guys 00:54 < bkero> Fuck I really need a subscription to make 00:54 < fenn> make sucks 00:54 < fenn> all they do is hot-glue pez dispensers together 00:54 < bkero> Why? 00:54 < bkero> lol 00:54 < bkero> About once per issue they do some cool shit 00:55 < fenn> seriously, why dont we see any 'how to build your own mass spectrometer' articles 00:56 < bkero> They ran an article about building an electrophoresis and one about extracting your dna, selecting enes, and pcring them 00:56 < bkero> *genes 00:56 < fenn> meh 00:56 < bkero> They give von slatt props and I have to respect that. 00:56 < fenn> the steampunk guy? 00:56 < kanzure> mass specs ? 00:56 < kanzure> argh 00:56 < kanzure> opera is down 00:56 < kanzure> but I have bookmarks on that 00:57 < bkero> I did use their article to make myself a wideband o2 sensor 00:57 < fenn> make has a lot of good stuff, sure, but it just gets drowned out by the frilly 'me too' wannabe knitting projects 00:58 < kanzure> on the other side of things, 00:58 < bkero> You mean the 'diy community' 00:58 < fenn> right, whatever that means 00:58 < kanzure> it leaves little of a lasting community in the areas that the Maker Faire goes to 00:58 < kanzure> there's no "diy community" left behind ;-) 01:00 < bkero> I did go to the first maker faire 01:00 < bkero> and I knew the people there converting a prius to full electric 01:00 < bkero> kanzure: I'm part of a diy community :) 01:00 < kanzure> It was funny today. I was going from table to table of the student organizations that are recruiting freshmen. Experimental rocketry groups, engineering + underdeveloped infrastructures in the third world, robotics, solar powered cars. So I walked up to each, talked with everyone, and at each one it seemed I had something to offer. 01:00 < kanzure> To the third world country guys, I mentioned cheap diy biotech kits, to the rocketry guys I mentioned the SEDS conference and some CFD solvers, and with the library people I apologized and told them I'm the guy doing all of the automated interlibrary loan requests. One group already knew me ... it was odd. 01:00 < kanzure> bkero: yeah, we have those groups too like http://therobotgroup.org/ and http://austinev.org/ or something 01:01 < kanzure> bah, just check my http://austinbrains.org/ 01:01 < bkero> heh austinev 01:01 < bkero> I know a lot of cars from he austinev 01:01 < bkero> Great site 01:02 < kanzure> It's kind of weird talking about these groups irl because usually the other person I'm talking to is a /member/ of these groups 01:02 < kanzure> and I start looking like an ass. 01:02 < kanzure> without my knowing their membership status 01:02 < kanzure> thus not displaying the proper amount of parsing of the information available about each group, you see 01:06 < fenn> because you didnt memorize all the names on the membership list? 01:06 < kanzure> more or less. 01:07 < fenn> ah well, tell them their shoes look nice 01:07 < fenn> or something 01:07 < fenn> humans.. 01:08 * bkero isn't really a member of any clubs on campus 01:08 < bkero> I was sort of a member of the solar challenge team, but didn't show up because they didn't give me anything to do, and planning is bullshit. 01:08 < kanzure> http://www.engr.utexas.edu/current/studentorgs/ <--- This is a terrible page. I need a better calendar. 01:09 < kanzure> membership doesn't matter to me 01:09 < kanzure> but I still do stuff 01:09 < kanzure> most of the stuff that these organizations are trying to do 01:09 < kanzure> i.e., "solar cells!" huh, I'm pretty sure I've dived into that fairly deeply on occassion 01:10 < bkero> Most of these groups don't do shit 01:10 < kanzure> Meh. 01:11 < bkero> The 'environmental group' here ignores my ideas on solar cells and oil extraction from algae 01:11 < kanzure> what do you mean by ignore 01:11 < bkero> They just want to collect money to buy wind power from Pacific Power 01:11 < kanzure> what do you do to tell them, are you doing a project and do they not come to see it ? 01:11 < fenn> i had that problem with IU robo club.. nobody knew anything and on top of that they didnt even want to learn on their own what was possible 01:11 < fenn> and that's like the entirety of engineering activity in bloomington 01:11 < kanzure> I heard a few group members behind the tables saying similar things 01:11 < bkero> Most robot clubs are a joke. :/ 01:12 < kanzure> "there's really only one or two guys here that actually know what they're doing ..." 01:12 < kanzure> bkero: The Austin robot clubs are fairly impressive. 01:12 < kanzure> we even had a lab 01:12 < kanzure> workshop thingy 01:12 < fenn> kanzure: i think its true of every group of humans 01:12 < kanzure> a thousand square feet 01:12 < bkero> Nice 01:12 < kanzure> until they all lost their jobs in the ~2002 engineering industry crashes 01:12 < kanzure> and it was only one guy paying the bill .. 01:12 < kanzure> :p 01:13 < kanzure> poor Vern. 01:13 < kanzure> he's been telling me that he's the only guy really doing anything for the group 01:13 < fenn> 2002 engineering industry crash? what caused that? 01:13 * bkero is probably going to texas next spring to have dell suck my dick. 01:13 < kanzure> other members do stuff on occassion, but it's obvious that he's hyperoverloaded 01:13 < kanzure> fenn: uhm, maybe 2000? the one where suddenly Mr. MBA+EE+CS finds himself flipping burgers 01:17 < fenn> due to outsourcing or what? 01:18 < kanzure> dunno, 01:18 < kanzure> http://www.thinkandask.com/news/ibm.html IBM's 2003 round of layoffs 01:18 < kanzure> http://www.ecommercetimes.com/perl/board/mboard.pl?board=ecttalkback&thread=5679&id=5681&display=1 50k layoffs @ IBM, per 2002 01:19 < bkero> IBM was also spiraling the shitter for a long time and eventually settled on selling off it's most prized possession--the Thinkpad line 01:20 < kanzure> http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&q=semiconductor+layoffs+2000..2004&btnG=Search 01:20 < kanzure> http://www.forbes.com/2004/05/19/cx_jp_2003layoffs_print.html layoff tracker 02:23 -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@ip-194-50-167-184.mir.dn.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:37 < kanzure> lynx question 02:37 < kanzure> I've had a page up for a month 02:37 < kanzure> I need to view the post/get data 02:37 < kanzure> how? 02:39 < bkero> Some firefox extensions will do that. 02:39 < bkero> That's how I do it. 02:40 < kanzure> doesn't help me.. 02:40 < kanzure> I realized that I'm not paying for my internet connections 02:40 < kanzure> so I'm retracing the forms I submitted to their server 03:13 < kanzure> http://www.backyardmonorail.com/ 03:16 < bkero> 07:15 god damn that site is loading slower than shit 03:16 < bkero> 07:15 oh i thought it was me 03:16 < bkero> 07:16 I feel like I'm building the monorail, with him, right now. 03:16 < bkero> 07:16 each pixel at a time 03:16 < kanzure> who's zarathustra? 03:17 < bkero> Friend of mine 03:44 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:45 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:53 -!- Nofaris [n=Nofaris@adsl-75-42-94-197.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:06 < faceface> Kanzure - is it normal to feel a hatred for "counselors" and "academic advisors" that don't actually do what they should be doing? 04:06 < faceface> yes, but you need to learn how to negotiate people like any other obstacle 04:06 < faceface> you can get hung up on idiots, hipocrits and bastards, but at the end of the day you need to just deal with them. 04:06 < faceface> sad but true. 04:29 -!- Nofaris [n=Nofaris@adsl-75-42-94-197.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:35 -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@ip-194-50-167-184.mir.dn.ua] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:03 -!- Nofaris [n=Nofaris@adsl-75-42-94-197.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:49 -!- Nade [n=lixasd@cpc2-clif5-0-0-cust516.nott.cable.ntl.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:54 < Nade> wow, i'm overwhelmed by the broadness of the group 05:55 < Nade> is there anything you guys don't cover? 05:56 < bkero> If there is--tell us. 05:56 < bkero> (see todays xkcd) 05:56 < bkero> http://www.xkcd.com/ 05:57 < Nade> :) 05:57 < Nade> so what exactly do most of you do here? 05:59 < bkero> Talk 05:59 < bkero> about SCIENCE! 05:59 < Nade> :) 05:59 < Nade> does anyone do any science? 06:01 < Nade> i want to build an open source project to communicate with the brain 06:01 < Nade> something that anyone can read about and can go out and build for just a few dollars 06:03 < bkero> the inductive circuits for that can get expensive--$50 at least 06:03 < bkero> Ping me tomorrow when I'm awake, good night 06:04 < Nade> ok, night night 06:12 -!- nsh- [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 06:14 -!- willPow3r_ [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 06:20 -!- nsh [n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:30 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:46 -!- nsh- [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:23 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220.253-207-176.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit ["That is not dead Which can eternal lie, And with strange eons Even death may die."] 07:44 -!- nsh [n=nsh@eduroam-52.uta.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:52 -!- Nofaris [n=Nofaris@adsl-75-42-94-197.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:16 -!- faceface [n=dbolser@bioinformatics.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:59 < kanzure> hm 08:59 < kanzure> how late is it okay to show up for a class? 09:03 < ybit> speaking of class... 09:03 -!- ybit [n=h@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:17 -!- kanzure [i=bryan@66.112.232.134] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:17 < nsh> people go to classes still? 09:17 < nsh> i thought we were in the 21st century now 09:17 < nsh> the classes come to *you* 09:58 -!- dgarr [n=dgarrett@66-81-72-169.bayarea.dialup.o1.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:52 -!- Nofaris [n=Nofaris@adsl-75-42-94-197.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:01 -!- dgarr [n=dgarrett@66-81-72-169.bayarea.dialup.o1.com] has left #hplusroadmap [] 11:13 < kanzure_> nsh: apparently not 11:14 < kanzure_> Hey dgarr. 11:14 < kanzure_> Bay Area? 11:14 < kanzure_> D Garrett. Hm. 11:14 * nsh smiles 11:14 < kanzure_> No, I don't think I met anyone there with dialup. 11:15 < kanzure_> There was a ridiculous lack of laptops. 11:18 -!- kanzure [i=bryan@66.112.232.134] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:32 < nsh> mm 11:51 < procto> anyone here live real close to burlingame, ca, and wants to host me in october? 11:51 * procto is going to the seasteading conference 11:55 < fenn> this is dgarr's page, not sure why he ended up here: http://www.panix.com/~dgarrett/phpv1/index.php 11:56 < kanzure> ooh 11:56 < kanzure> I saw a cool shirt yesterday 11:56 < kanzure> "Sustainability for security" 11:56 < kanzure> procto, you listening? 11:56 < procto> listening to what? 11:56 < kanzure> the quote :p 11:56 < kanzure> you do security work, no? 11:57 < fenn> lol 11:57 < fenn> information obscurity work 11:57 < procto> some, yes 11:57 < procto> ah 11:58 < kanzure> whois chizu 11:58 < kanzure> ohloh? so must be bkero's double 12:00 < fenn> trevor hardcastle 12:00 < procto> kanzure: I'm not quite sure what means. speficially, what type of sustainability and what type of security it's refering to 12:00 < procto> kanzure: just fyi, my main work occupations right now have to do with information extraction and video processing :) 12:01 < kanzure> procto: I have a video from a conference with very good information on slides that are a bit too blurry because of the mpeg encoder used, could you take a look at it for me? 12:01 < kanzure> :p 12:01 < kanzure> Steve tells me that there's some good algorithms out there 12:01 < procto> kanzure: we're actually doing quite a different type of video processing system 12:01 < kanzure> with keywords like 'super' and 'image' and 'extraction' 12:02 < procto> (I do information extraction for my dayjob in the hedge fund industry, and I moonlight at a startup I co-founded, where we do video summarization) 12:02 < procto> if you had a long lecture and needed only the interesting bits 12:02 < procto> then I could help you 12:02 < Nofaris> How should I kill the next 90 minutes of my life? 12:02 < fenn> sounds useful for classes 12:02 < procto> fenn: that's one potential use 12:03 < procto> our audio-salience is so-so right now, so we're working on it 12:03 < fenn> sounds like a Hard Problem 12:03 < procto> spent all weekend hacking a webcam client 12:03 < procto> several have been running since, seems it is working robustly 12:04 < procto> webcams streams into the system, and the vidoe gets summarized on the fly 12:04 < procto> video* 12:04 < procto> I like to think of it as sousveillance on crack 12:04 < fenn> is this like 'motion' where it just records when something is moving? 12:05 < procto> not quite 12:05 < nsh> WHUT PLS 12:05 < procto> it's time-dilation proportional to various salience measures 12:05 < nsh> summarise conversation subjects 12:05 < procto> inversely proportional that is 12:05 * nsh is allergic to parsing buffers 12:05 < nsh> ____SUMMARY_____ 12:06 < fenn> irc is a parsing buffer 12:06 < fenn> that's why i use it 12:06 < procto> nsh: in that case you might be interested in the topic extractions algorithms I write for work 12:06 < procto> alas, they're still proprietary 12:07 * nsh suspects, in the words of the eminant 20th century philosophy Peter Griffin, that they'd be shallow, and pedantic 12:08 < procto> the algorithms? 12:08 < nsh> yeah 12:08 < procto> they are pretty shallow, but not pedantic 12:08 < nsh> as in, only looking at superficial features and easily confused by minor changes in spelling that doesn't affect the sense 12:08 * nsh isn't convinced :-) 12:09 < procto> right. in fact, one of the main things I work is reducing its pedantic nature 12:09 < nsh> s/doesn't/don't/ 12:09 < nsh> procto, cool 12:09 < procto> with fancy disambiguation and such 12:09 < nsh> asplain pls? 12:09 < procto> shallowness isn't a problem for our applications 12:09 < nsh> why? 12:10 < procto> because we're not doing free-form natural language processing 12:10 < procto> but rather specific extractions 12:10 < nsh> specific to what? 12:10 < procto> we need to extract a limited set of topic from specific types of documents 12:10 < procto> hedge funds 12:10 < procto> I work for a company that makes software for hedge funds 12:10 < nsh> oh, right; i remember 12:10 < nsh> you're one of "them" 12:10 < nsh> ;-) 12:11 < procto> I fight the system from within :> 12:12 < nsh> same with me and illegal drugs culture 12:12 * nsh smiles 12:12 < nsh> but i'm interested, what kinds of topics do your softwares extract from what types of documents? 12:12 < nsh> SEC filings? 12:13 < nsh> media articles mentioning companies and market-influencing phenomena? 12:13 < nsh> like a form of economic traffic analysis, or what? 12:14 < procto> some sec filings, internal emails, pretty much anything 12:14 < procto> but we have a closed corpus 12:14 < procto> i.e. companies and invdividuals relating to them 12:14 < procto> and events that occur to those 12:16 < procto> we make a research management system 12:16 < procto> so as data pours in, it needs to be sorted and categorized as quickly and accurately as possible 12:16 < nsh> interesting 12:16 < nsh> and this indirectly affects the hedge-funds' market artivities 12:16 < nsh> *activities 12:17 < nsh> so by reverse engineering your algorithms, someone could feasably apply forcing functions to the hedge funds' interest, and by extension buy/sell probabilities 12:17 < nsh> with enough resources, that might be an interesting exploit 12:18 < procto> not quite 12:19 * nsh nods - the input documents would be very hard to manipulate 12:19 < procto> our product gets used by research-based funds 12:19 < procto> the way the fund managers operate is that they make certain models in their heads 12:19 < nsh> not sure i know what research-based fund means 12:19 < procto> about what they expect to happen 12:19 < procto> and they use research to verify and perhaps correct those models 12:19 < procto> as well as develop new ones 12:20 < nsh> ok 12:20 < procto> in quant funds, fancy algorithms are used to decide on trading 12:20 < procto> in research funds the algorithms are all in the heads of the managers 12:20 < procto> who usually concentrate on specific asset targets 12:20 < procto> rather than general trading strategies 12:20 < nsh> but the topic extraction algorithms give differential weighting to certain matters 12:20 < procto> which is what quants often do 12:21 < procto> maybe if you had 100 years worth of our extraction data 12:21 < procto> you could realize some info leak 12:21 < procto> but there's very little skewing 12:21 < procto> that's sorta the point of reliable disambiguation 12:22 < nsh> ah ok, i see 12:23 < nsh> so procto, you could make me a good algorithm for extracting statistically improbably phrases? 12:23 < nsh> actually, to be fair, google makes that pretty trivial 12:23 < procto> define statistically improbable? 12:24 < procto> phrases that don't appear very often in a corpus? 12:24 < nsh> like amazon uses 12:24 < nsh> each book gets a list of phrases deemed important or specific to that book by virtue of appearing a higher than would be expected frequencies 12:25 < procto> ah, gotcha 12:25 < procto> there are plenty such algorithms which are quite efficient 12:25 < procto> I wrote, for fun, a tool that analyzed the american presidential debates 12:25 < nsh> i'd apply it to things like irc chats. for example, some years ago i thought it'd be fun to have google results float past behind the (translucent) irc window for things being discussed 12:25 < procto> and then could tell you whether a particular segment from a future debate was from a republican or a democrat 12:26 < nsh> so a wikipedia intro paragraph, picture result for something clearly pictorial, etc. 12:26 < procto> it did this by analyzing collocations, that is, words that appear together more frequently than other words, then I trained a naive bayesian on the top 20 collocations of democrats, and top 20 collocations of republicans 12:26 < nsh> interesting 12:26 < procto> identification was quite reliable 12:26 < procto> there are some "non sequitors" of course 12:26 < procto> for example, republicans almost invariably mention ronald raegan 12:27 < procto> hence the words "ronald" and "raegan" are a collocation 12:27 < procto> while democrats almost never do 12:27 < procto> and if they do, it's at most once or twice 12:27 < nsh> what was the average period of collocation? once every N words: N = 20, 50, 100? 12:27 < procto> don't remember 12:27 < nsh> it would be interesting to give a novelty score to political speeches 12:28 < nsh> that is, determine the degree of phrase reuse 12:28 < nsh> then build up, using some hidden markov model or analogue, a citation tree 12:28 < nsh> as in rhetoric a lot of stock phrases have quite tracable lineage 12:28 < nsh> then one could determine rhetorical hereditry 12:29 < nsh> *heredity 12:29 < procto> one of my alpha users on the video summarization startup just did the thriller video, looks pretty nice summarized 12:29 < procto> (we also finished direct-from-youtube summarization this weekend) 12:29 -!- Nofaris [n=Nofaris@adsl-75-42-94-197.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:29 < nsh> i can't even imagine how you'd do that... 12:29 < nsh> are you using feature recognition? 12:30 < procto> nope 12:30 < nsh> asplain! 12:30 < procto> I can't. our algorithms are currently secret. 12:30 < procto> that may change later. 12:30 < nsh> meh at your secrets 12:30 < nsh> you can't give me an overview even? 12:31 < procto> but in general, we are doing time-dilation that's inversly proportional to salience 12:31 < procto> and we have multiple salience measures 12:31 < procto> one prominent salience measure is motion 12:31 < nsh> oh, this is what you were talking about earlier 12:31 < procto> more motion, time moves slower 12:31 < procto> yes 12:31 < procto> less motion, time moves faster 12:32 < nsh> ok, that 12:32 < nsh> 's a good idea 12:32 < nsh> but that just assigns a rapidity index to the video 12:32 < procto> it's somewhat fancier than that 12:32 < nsh> i assume summarisation would be verbal to some degree... 12:32 < procto> but that's the general idea 12:33 < nsh> now, perhaps in conjunction with tagging, 12:33 < procto> video summarization meaning that you take a video of X minutes, and you get a video of Y minutes, where Y < X 12:33 < nsh> for example, people can add events and they'll stick to certain portions of the video 12:33 < procto> sorry if that wasn't clear 12:33 < nsh> oh 12:33 < nsh> automated editing then 12:33 < procto> right 12:33 < nsh> sorry, i was thinking verbal synopsis 12:33 < nsh> that's why i was liek: JOHN TITOR, IS TAHT U?!?! 12:33 < procto> understandable 12:34 * nsh smiles 12:34 < procto> for example, if you're familiar with justin.tv and ustream.tv 12:34 < procto> there have been multiple cases now where folks got robbed 12:34 < nsh> hmm 12:34 < procto> then they went unto the sites, and looked through their own webcam archives 12:34 < nsh> (not familiar with either) 12:34 < nsh> i se 12:34 < procto> the blog posts about these cases always include phrases like "after wading through hundreds of hours of footage" or "4 hours later I found the culprit" 12:34 < nsh> right right 12:35 < nsh> so you want to ultimately provide a way to make video fingerprints 12:35 < procto> not just 12:35 < procto> that's just one usecase 12:35 < nsh> sure 12:35 < nsh> but a good one, nonetheless 12:35 < procto> where most of the time, nothing happens in your room 12:35 < procto> but when the robber's in, that's the main part you'll see 12:35 < procto> it's like it fast forwards to the good parts for you 12:35 < nsh> ok, but that's largely an extant technology 12:36 < nsh> though maybe not very mature yet 12:36 < nsh> i haven't ever checked 12:36 < procto> there are some existing implementations of similar things 12:36 < procto> none of them are quite doing what we are (we checked) 12:36 * nsh nods 12:36 < procto> and the ones that exist, are almost all in the high-end security business 12:36 < nsh> meh :-) 12:36 < procto> like the israeli company briefcam 12:37 < procto> http://www.briefcam.com/demo.html 12:37 < procto> check those out 12:37 * nsh on it 12:37 -!- Nofaris [n=Nofaris@adsl-75-42-94-197.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:37 < nsh> what are they doing with the colours? or is that natural? 12:38 < procto> they do object tracking 12:38 < procto> so they track all the objects 12:38 < nsh> ok, but they're nonlinearising the shot 12:38 < procto> and then they have all the objects "play" at the same time, but also resolve collisions 12:38 < procto> right 12:38 < procto> they are 12:38 < nsh> pretty novel 12:38 < nsh> i like 12:38 < nsh> but you'd have to then include a way to unwrap it in real time 12:38 < procto> so that's not quite what we're doing, but it's also quite high end, and requires substantially more processing than we do 12:38 < nsh> which doesn't seem too hard, but perhaps difficult to UI well 12:39 * nsh nods 12:39 < procto> since we're going for a consumer market 12:39 < procto> our design is based on that 12:39 < procto> if you're into, say, golf 12:39 < procto> imagine watching the summary, but when you catch a part you want to watch fully realtime, well, just clik the button, and it will play realtime from that exact point 12:39 < kanzure> http://revminds.seedmagazine.com/revminds/member/aleksandra_m_walczak/ 12:40 < kanzure> podcast on noise in genetic regulatory networks 12:40 < nsh> procto, right 12:40 < nsh> now... 12:40 * nsh thinks about interesting things regarding non-linear video compression and causality regression 12:41 < procto> I'll give out invites once we're in alpha2 12:41 < procto> (waiting on the bangladeshi designers we've hired to finish working) 12:42 * nsh smiles 12:42 < nsh> kanzure, don't forget to bookmark 12:42 < procto> woo globalization 12:44 < nsh> meh @ that kanzure 12:45 < nsh> i hate that people are revolutionary for doing stuff that should have been obvious decades ago 12:45 < kanzure> no argument there 12:48 < procto> my business partner on the video summarization startup is a biophysicist 12:48 < procto> works for the broad institute 12:48 < nsh> her publications look less sophomoric than the explanation for revminds 12:48 < nsh> procto, interesting 12:48 < procto> usually people are like "I work doing web development as a day job, but what I'd really like to do is cure cancer!" 12:48 * nsh likes multidisciplinarians 12:48 < procto> he is "I work curing cancer, but what I'd really like to do is some web development!" 12:49 * nsh doesn't like the term web development 12:49 < nsh> it usually means: do something a million people have done before, and suboptimally, and to no general benefit of humanity 12:50 < procto> I rather agree 12:50 < procto> I just think "writing a web app" sounds even more cumbursome 12:50 < procto> or "an app that people access on the web" 12:50 * nsh smiles 12:50 < procto> which better describes it 12:50 < procto> because it isn't a *web* app 12:50 < nsh> i'd just call it "dayjob" 12:51 < nsh> there's dayjob, and there's work 12:51 < procto> it just so happens I'm giving an HTTP, HTML interface to it... 12:51 * nsh nods 12:51 < procto> well, I enjoy both my occupations 12:51 < procto> professional occupations that is 12:51 < procto> obviously I'm actually occupied by much more 12:51 * nsh is occupied by 3-4 spirits on a daily basis 12:53 < kanzure> holy shit, what's wrong with you people? http://heybryan.org/buildingbrains.html ' (more axons than dendrites).' 12:54 < nsh> whatnow? 12:54 < kanzure> there's more dendrites than axons on a neuron 12:54 < kanzure> you fools 12:54 < kanzure> although there's one paper in Blackwell Synergy saying 'When stained for axons and dendrites, some interneurons in the hippocampus are found to have more axons than dendrites, unlike usual neurons. ...' 12:55 * kanzure fixes 12:57 < procto> kanzure: didn't you write the page? I'm not sure who is "you people" 12:57 < procto> you're saying that people should have noticed? 12:57 < nsh> apparantly, we're proofreaders :-) 12:57 < procto> I see... 12:57 < procto> I've never read the page, but I probably would've remarked on it if I had 12:57 < nsh> though that might have been pasted from somewhere 12:57 < kanzure> if I'm wrong I expect people to yell at me 12:58 < kanzure> and throw stuff 12:58 < kanzure> like rocks 12:58 * nsh has a good collection of rocks 12:58 < kanzure> smooth rocks? 12:58 * procto spent a year in highschool cutting up brains 12:58 < procto> lab was during lunch period 12:58 < nsh> anyway, gonna head home 12:58 -!- nsh [n=nsh@eduroam-52.uta.fi] has quit ["bai"] 12:58 < procto> so now the mere sight of brains makes me salivate 12:58 < kanzure> I've done a ridiculous number of dissections, though I think I've only dissected one brain before 12:58 < procto> I've only ever dissected brains 12:58 < kanzure> you're my hero. 12:59 < procto> I think I've done at least a hundred brains 12:59 < Nade> i haven't dissected a single thing, I feel like a weirdo 12:59 < procto> mostly sheep 14:11 -!- Nofaris [n=Nofaris@adsl-75-42-94-197.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:20 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:32 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:34 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:52 -!- Nade [n=lixasd@cpc2-clif5-0-0-cust516.nott.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 15:09 < kanzure> "we'll be learning you how to convert yer inches to moles" 15:09 < kanzure> why am I in a chem 301 class? 15:22 < kanzure> procto: re: Caspi. Is the Weizmann Institute of some importance? I've been noticing it from particularly good papers and projects. 15:23 < procto> yes, it is 15:23 < procto> it's the premier theoretical science institution in Israel 15:23 < kanzure> hm 15:23 < procto> and Israel does have the highest concentration of post-secondary degrees per capita in the world 15:24 < procto> (at least partially because of the large influx of ex-soviet scientists. my father was a physicist in the soviet union, for example) 15:26 < kanzure> it appears most of my time now is checking the calendars and schedules to make sure I can make various events around campus or, more accurately, trying to remember long-term projections for possible stuff to go to 15:26 < kanzure> that's it .. time for me to get coding 15:26 < kanzure> procto: looks like Caspi was doing image segmentation stuff. Know anything other than pset for page segmentation algorithms and toolkits? Preferably something that is already software. 15:28 < procto> I don't 15:36 < nsh> kanzure, code a personal assistant 15:37 < nsh> if i ever had a schedule, i sure as hell wouldn't spend time thinking about it :-) 15:40 < kanzure> right 15:40 < procto> asksunday.com 15:43 < procto> if I lived in NYC, I would be an asksunday user 15:43 < kanzure> looks stupid 15:43 < kanzure> 20 minutes 15:43 < kanzure> I'll give you a task that I know, by theoretical computer science, will take you 40 15:43 < kanzure> thus your service sucks 15:43 < kanzure> etc. 15:44 < procto> huh? 15:44 < procto> I'm not sure that's the point... 15:45 < procto> their messgenger/time service would be the most useful thing for me 15:51 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/music2/radio/sky.fm%20-%20the80s.pls 15:51 < kanzure> http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=620076 perl+yaml stuff, since I've been doing more work with perl lately 16:32 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:32 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:39 < kanzure> what's the best way to do factorial checks? 16:40 < kanzure> should each object keep track of who it has been checked with? 16:40 < kanzure> guess that's not really the right way to be doing it anyway 16:40 < kanzure> since the goal is to recursively generate all possible final schedules 16:40 < kanzure> thereby not necessitating any management of the checks ? 16:40 < kanzure> I think conflict-check-management would still be needed 17:12 -!- ybit [n=h@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:22 -!- nsh- [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:31 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:20 -!- Nade [n=lixasd@cpc2-clif5-0-0-cust516.nott.cable.ntl.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:32 -!- Nofaris [n=Nofaris@adsl-75-42-94-197.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:23 < kanzure> Hey Nade. 19:34 -!- Netsplit niven.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: elias` 19:35 -!- Netsplit over, joins: elias` 19:52 < ybit> hmm, definitely going to stick with contacts 19:53 < ybit> glasses are okay though, but they make me dizzy 19:53 < ybit> i should stick to the topic 19:53 * ybit shuts up 19:58 < kanzure> I lose track of my fork stack 20:09 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220.253-207-176.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:19 < bkero> forks? 20:19 < bkero> http://www.theonion.com/content/radio_news/new_flavored_fork_adds_taste 20:20 < kanzure> hm, it wouldn't be impossible to make flavored forks 20:20 < kanzure> inner capillary system maybe 20:20 < kanzure> and recharge it over night at a dispenser 20:22 < kanzure> hm 20:22 < kanzure> there's 60 people on facebook in the biotech toolkit group 20:22 < kanzure> didn't notice .. 20:22 -!- Netsplit niven.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: elias` 20:22 -!- Netsplit niven.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: ybit 20:23 -!- Netsplit over, joins: ybit 20:24 < bkero> It would be rather easy to make flavored forks 20:25 < kanzure> I wonder if you can convince somebody that a texture is flavor 20:25 < kanzure> "metallic flavor!" 20:25 < kanzure> comes in plastic too 20:26 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:26 < bkero> lol 20:26 < bkero> You could just put something in the plastic mold 20:26 < bkero> like bbq sauce 20:26 < bkero> mm bbq sauce 20:27 < Nofaris> BBQ flavored anythingyoufuckingeat 20:27 < Nofaris> awesome 20:28 < bkero> 'eh, I'll steer clear of bbq flavored ice cream 20:36 -!- Netsplit niven.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: elias` 20:42 -!- Netsplit over, joins: elias` 20:44 < kanzure> http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/12/macgyver-scienc.html Hack: young prof makes lab-on-a-chip with shrinky dink and toaster oven 20:45 < kanzure> well 20:45 < kanzure> there we go. 20:47 -!- Netsplit niven.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: elias` 20:50 -!- biopunk [n=p@h246n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:55 -!- Netsplit over, joins: elias` 20:56 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus'_Flower_Basket <-- grows glass? 21:05 < Nade> hi 21:05 -!- Netsplit niven.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: elias` 21:06 < Nade> that shrinkydink thing's quite interesting 21:07 < Nade> hi kanzure 21:07 -!- Netsplit over, joins: elias` 21:08 < kanzure> Nade: You were ranting in ##neuroscience yesterday about brain augmentation, implants, our open rTMS project, and a few other things -- you can carry on now :-) 21:09 < Nade> :) 21:09 < Nade> well i was curious about the current state of diy brain interfaces 21:10 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/2008-08-15.html contains a few links to some papers on my server re: how to make electrodes by hand. 21:11 < kanzure> You could send a PCB board design off to one of the pcbfarms, or use your own pcb inkjet printer hack, and then wire up the electrodes to a PIC/microcontroller. But the heat of these things might kill your brain cells. You might want to look into this. To manufacture your own custom chips it'll be about ~$10k IIRC. 21:11 < Nade> to be more specific, I wondered if there were any diy version of those eeg headset thingys that are starting to emerge commercially 21:12 < bkero> Yea 21:12 < bkero> There's one coming out aimed for gamers 21:12 < bkero> I forget what it's called 21:12 < Nade> ultimately I would want to end up with a simple set of instructions that anyone with an arduino and a couple of dollars could put together 21:12 -!- Nofaris [n=Nofaris@adsl-75-42-94-197.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:12 < Nade> then focus on the software to interpret the data 21:13 < Nade> similarly, I want to see if one could communicate language through a series of vibrating motors placed around the body to represent all of the letters of the alphabet 21:14 < kanzure> bkero - you want to take this one? 21:14 < kanzure> this is kind of your project that you were mentioning 21:15 < bkero> Yea sure. 21:15 < Nade> project? :) 21:16 * kanzure is not a big fan of eeg .. too many people (DoYouKnow in ##neuroscience is an excellent example, not that I'm calling out names or anything) think that EEG is the answer to brain interfacing ... look, you're just getting less than 1 cm deep and just some vague electrical readings, nothing localized really. But there is some neurofeedback that can be done with it, yes, of course. 21:16 < bkero> I was looking at the openeeg project bcause that's where the defcon talk I saw linked me to, but I found some EEG-style systems to monitor Mu-rhythms in the brain. 21:17 < bkero> kanzure: With 2 electrodes on each side of the cortex, and a body reference, signals become pretty clear. 21:17 < bkero> Invasive brain reading scares the shit out of most people. 21:17 < bkero> Mainly because fucking up means you're dead/a vegetable. 21:18 < bkero> Keep in mind these are the same people soldering wires to pennies and using those as electrodes with shampoo as a contact gel. 21:18 < bkero> You can get as ghetto as you want with this kind of thing. :) 21:18 < kanzure> You have a reference on that one ? 21:18 < kanzure> I've been wondering what to do with these damn pennies. 21:18 < bkero> Hahaha 21:19 < Nade> lol 21:19 < bkero> http://www.eng.utah.edu/~jnguyen/ecg/instructions.html 21:19 < bkero> I guess those were used for an ekg 21:20 < Nade> that's the kind of thing i was thinking about 21:21 < Nade> i'm sure invasive gets much better results, but it's not something i'd want to do without a lot of research and planning 21:21 < Nade> and i wouldn't stick anything in my head 21:21 < Nade> although i'd have a kevin warwick style implant 21:22 < kanzure> "Captain Cyborg" 21:22 < Nade> i've had lectures with him 21:22 < bkero> Most of the implants involve coming through the back of your head where there's a breach in the skull, drilling, or coming through the temple. ;) 21:22 < Nade> a bit of a nutter 21:22 < bkero> By implants I mean subdermal electrodes. 21:23 < kanzure> Screw wires. 21:23 < kanzure> Just use wireless communication and power transmission. 21:23 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/docs/neuro/ has the papers on how to do this. 21:23 < bkero> kanzure: There was a talk at defcon about security vulnerabilities in pacemakers. 21:23 < bkero> You can overload them, run them out of batteries, or even disable some routines and get them to induce a heart attack(test mode) 21:24 < bkero> Imagine having something insecure tied to your central nervous system. 21:24 < kanzure> Like a woman? 21:24 < kanzure> har har har, a joke. A joke. 21:24 < Nade> lets be honest though, it's not hard to kill old people 21:24 < kanzure> I'm not arguing against noninvasive interfacing. 21:25 < bkero> kanzure: None of us have ever had a women tied to us. We're on IRC for gods sake. 21:25 < bkero> Nade: how about teenagers with a gimped heart? :P 21:25 < Nade> you got me there 21:25 < Nade> :p 21:26 < Nade> so what exactly is your project then bkero 21:26 < bkero> My project? 21:26 < bkero> Reading Mu rhythms for cursor control 21:26 < Nade> using diy equipment? 21:26 < bkero> Yes 21:27 < bkero> I'm trying to be so lazy I don't hav eto move my arms or speak to use a computer. 21:27 < Nade> a noble goal 21:27 < kanzure> don't forget the subvocalization web browser paper 21:27 < kanzure> Nade, we're all very lazy people 21:27 < bkero> kanzure: subvocalization equipment is expensive. 21:27 < Nade> so have you got it working? 21:27 < kanzure> supposedly so are electrodes, but you just showed me a really cheap two bit, no, less than two bit way of doing it 21:27 < bkero> Although did you see that jaw vibration speaker and subvocal mic that some french guy got implanted to use as a cell phone? 21:28 < bkero> kanzure: electrodes are about $40 from canada :) 21:28 < bkero> I don't have the link up anymore, but it's about 3rd degree from the openeeg site--so good luck. :P 21:30 < Nade> has anyone tried using haptics to communicate language? for example using several wearable feedback devices (e.g a vibrating motor or small electric shock) to represent the letters of the alphabet? 21:31 < bkero> You mean like Hawkings mouthpiece? 21:32 < Nade> nope 21:33 < Nade> having a computer read you a message by activating several feedback devices at different times for each letter 21:34 < Nade> so a small vibration on your upper arm and shoulder might represent the letters b and c etc... 21:35 < bkero> So what's stopping you from using a little microcontroller and 26 little motors and some tape? 21:35 < Nade> i don't have one yet :) 21:35 < Nade> but that's what i want to try 21:36 < Nade> do you think I'd be able to learn how to interpret the messages with enough practice? 21:37 < kanzure> Interpretive dance? 21:38 < bkero> Sure 21:38 < bkero> You can remember 26 positions on your body 21:39 < nsh-> semaphor is a slow code :-) 21:39 < nsh-> imagine is sign language speakers only used the alphabet 21:40 < nsh-> *if 21:40 < nsh-> i suspect it'd be more efficient to learn a pidgin 21:40 < Nade> i think if you practiced you could get it up to a reasonable speed 21:40 < kanzure> Simultaneous movements -- can you pat your stomach and rub your, wait 21:40 < kanzure> shit 21:40 < kanzure> rub your stomach and pat your head :) 21:40 < kanzure> Gah. Can't even do it in text. 21:41 * nsh- smiles 21:43 < nsh-> anyone read that Asimov short story, "Spell My Name With An S"? 21:44 < Nade> nope 21:44 < kanzure> Vomiza 21:45 < kanzure> rawr 21:45 < nsh-> should read it 21:46 < kanzure> fenn: you have it? 21:47 < Nade> hmmn, i wonder what it'd be like to constantly be aware of your heartbeat.. like if you connected it to a speaker or vibrating motor 21:48 < kanzure> There's somebody who posted on Slashdot once about a completely silent chamber. Nobody lasts more than 30 minutes in the thing. You hear everything your body is doing. 21:49 < bkero> Nade: I spend half the way with my fingers on my neck or wrist for my pulse. 21:49 < bkero> *way = day 21:50 < Nade> why's that? 21:51 < nsh-> people do quite well in sensory deprivation tanks... 21:51 < kanzure> I have my hand pressed to my face a good portion of the time too 21:51 < kanzure> hm 21:51 < nsh-> u has gmail 21:51 < kanzure> kk 21:51 < kanzure> yep 21:52 < Nade> yeah but i reckon it might influence you if you could hear it all the time 21:53 < kanzure> reckon? really? 21:53 < Nade> slightly 21:53 < Nade> if you're trying to get fit it might be useful 21:54 < Nade> maybe not 21:54 < kanzure> No, I mean the word choice. 21:54 < nsh-> you'd stop hearing it 21:54 < nsh-> it would take zen training to not automatically filter it 21:55 * kanzure was thinking of checking out the local zen center 21:55 < Nade> maybe you could control it :o 21:55 * nsh- doesn't hear the annoying noise that comes out of his bathroom constantly 21:55 < nsh-> except now of course, that i'm thinking about it 21:55 < bkero> grunting? 21:55 < kanzure> nsh-: the noise saying "help, I need toilet paper!" 21:56 < Nade> lol 21:56 < kanzure> this is why they invented the fan 21:56 < kanzure> always use the fan, nobody wants to hear your liquids 21:56 * nsh- smiels 21:57 < bkero> Unless you have a lewd girlfriend. :P 21:57 < kanzure> bkero: IRC, remember? 21:57 < bkero> ...lewd mother? 21:57 < Nade> another idea would be to make the user constantly aware of the time of day, by vibrating a tiny motor on their arm every minute or every ten mins 21:57 < bkero> Your roommate has a lewd girlfriend? 21:57 < kanzure> bkero: when irc guys can't get a date, I think this includes their mother 21:57 < kanzure> bkero: irc peeps don't necessarily have roomies 21:57 < bkero> kanzure: bullshit, you're in a dorm 21:57 < kanzure> I don't have a room mate 21:57 < bkero> o 21:57 < bkero> Yea i did that too 21:58 < bkero> fuck dormmates 21:58 < kanzure> Nade: I don't know if that would tell you much. 21:58 < kanzure> What are you trying to do ? 21:58 < kanzure> It seems you're kind of ad hoc :) 21:58 < bkero> Nade: You could always use small electrical pulses to contract muscles instead of motors. 21:58 < Nade> i'm throwing a few ideas in the air :) 21:58 < Nade> i'm curious, because i think simple things like that might change the users behavior 21:59 < Nade> it might alter how long they spend on certain tasks or what time they do them 21:59 < kanzure> so you're interested in task scheduling and so on? 21:59 < Nade> or it might just annoy them 21:59 * kanzure is an extreme multitasker 21:59 < kanzure> I think I'm presently doing a few thousand things. 21:59 < kanzure> I've lost count. 21:59 < kanzure> but they're being "done", mysteriously 21:59 * bkero has his computers do things for him. 22:01 < fenn> hmm. asimov wrote too much, i can't find it 22:02 < kanzure> fenn: nsh got to it 22:02 < kanzure> gmail ref 22:03 < fenn> the diy microfluidics is nifty 22:03 -!- Manion [n=chatzill@resnet-47-165.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:03 < Manion> hello 22:04 -!- Manion is now known as Gene 22:04 < kanzure> Hey Gene. 22:04 -!- Gene is now known as newgenome 22:04 < fenn> hey, the paper is even free, you only have to pay 24ukp for it 22:04 < newgenome> yes 22:05 * fenn wonders if wired editors know the diff between a paper and an abstract 22:05 < kanzure> We were just talking about some wearable computers, newgenome. 22:05 < newgenome> that's cool 22:05 < newgenome> augmented reality stuff? 22:06 < kanzure> Nah, Nade was ranting in ##neuroscience yesterday about brain augmentation stuff so I started yelling at him to come in here. 22:06 < kanzure> mostly augmented interfaces more than anything 22:07 < newgenome> so neural interfaces, much less likely to give you eyestrain than display goggles 22:08 < bkero> goggles strain eye, and throw off your inner ear wickedly bad. 22:08 < kanzure> which one of us was mentioning retinal implants? 22:08 < bkero> Your eye tries to put the HUD in your field of vision, but can't place the third dimension of it 22:08 < bkero> So it just fucks your shit up 22:08 < bkero> and you don't adapt 22:09 < kanzure> oh, there was also the log from the other day about making scouters I guess 22:09 < newgenome> scouters? 22:09 < kanzure> something about projecting or lasering on to the eyeball for screens 22:09 < kanzure> newgenome: Dragon Ball Z reference. 22:09 < newgenome> I get it 22:09 < fenn> head up display computer 22:09 < kanzure> it's over nine thousand, etc. 22:10 < newgenome> monocle though 22:10 < kanzure> you going to complain? 22:10 < fenn> bkero: why not just add some parallax to the HUD so that doesn't happen? 22:10 < kanzure> fenn: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/Shrinky-Dink microfluidics: rapid generation of deep and rounded patterns.pdf <-- paper. 22:10 < kanzure> erm 22:11 < kanzure> but with %20's 22:11 < fenn> we don need no steenking %20's 22:11 -!- nsh- [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has left #hplusroadmap [] 22:11 -!- nsh- [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:11 < fenn> everything should just be underscores instead 22:12 < kanzure> mm 22:13 < fenn> pdms stamps can go down to nanometer resolution, so why dont we see semiconductors being etched with this process? (or am i just ignorant?) 22:15 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDMS_stamp 22:15 < kanzure> checking Google Scholar .. 22:16 < kanzure> 'Non-Photolithographic Methods for Fabrication of Elastomeric Stamps for Use in Microcontact Printing -' 22:16 < kanzure> 'Micropatterned Surfaces for Control of Cell Shape, Position, and Function ' 22:16 < kanzure> 'Submicrometer Patterning of Charge in Thin-Film Electrets ' 22:16 < kanzure> 'DNA microarray synthesis by using PDMS molecular stamp (II)' 22:16 < kanzure> Hm. 22:16 < fenn> spell my name with an S is in here somewhere: http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/Isaac Asimov - The Complete Stories Volume 1.pdf 22:16 < fenn> with %20's 22:16 < kanzure> it's also in your inbox 22:17 < fenn> oh, oh well 22:17 < fenn> i cheated and read the summary on wikipedia 22:17 < newgenome> don't we all 22:18 < kanzure> 'Patterning Self-Assembled Monolayers: Applications in Materials Science' 22:18 < kanzure> fenn: "PDMS stamps" has led to a ridiculously large number of well-titled articles 22:18 < kanzure> I wonder if the content is as good as the titles 22:18 < fenn> it seems promising 22:18 < newgenome> speaking of semiconductors 22:18 < kanzure> 'A modified microstamping technique enhances polylysine transfer and neuronal cell patterning ' 22:18 < kanzure> newgenome: http://heybryan.org/semiconductor.html 22:19 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/graphene.html is the graphene page I mentioned. 22:19 < newgenome> does anyone know how they etch graphene? 22:19 < kanzure> yes 22:19 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/instrumentation/instru.html for the AFMs and STMs 22:19 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/AFM_nanolithography (or something) 22:19 < newgenome> that's very impracticle 22:19 < kanzure> fine, 22:19 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/notes.html for etchants 22:20 < newgenome> well thanks 22:20 < kanzure> bwahah 22:21 < newgenome> recently read they made some working qubits in graphene 22:21 < kanzure> etching: 22:21 < kanzure> http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=31766 22:21 < kanzure> http://www.nrgrecording.de/html/pcb.html 22:21 < kanzure> http://web.media.mit.edu/~ladyada/resources/inhouseetch.html 22:21 < kanzure> http://machinetools.com/MT/machines/index.tmpl?page=group_country&groupid=8160&countryID=CT9984321042268 22:21 < kanzure> http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm 22:21 < kanzure> newgenome: yeah, that's on the graphene.html page I think 22:21 < fenn> um, wrong kind of etching 22:21 < kanzure> oops 22:21 < kanzure> owhat do you mean? 22:21 < kanzure> drawing? 22:21 < kanzure> or chemical? 22:21 < fenn> something that dissolves copper won't necessarily dissolve graphene 22:22 < newgenome> I mean making lots and lots of 1 nm transistors 22:22 < fenn> and those are macro scale processes, i'm not convinced it will work at very small dimensions 22:22 < newgenome> yeah 22:22 < newgenome> I don't think you can dissolve graphene 22:22 < fenn> sure you can 22:22 < fenn> shoot a beam of ozone at it 22:22 < kanzure> uh 22:22 < newgenome> maybe eat it away with electron beams 22:22 < kanzure> where's percent_? 22:22 < kanzure> he's the carbon nanotube guy 22:22 < kanzure> he claims he can get us some CNTs if we ever need them 22:23 < kanzure> let me see if he's on 22:23 < newgenome> what I really want are some long CNTs, like a foot long or so 22:24 < kanzure> hm 22:24 < kanzure> why? 22:24 < newgenome> of course, current technology can't make them 22:24 < fenn> i think i'd settle for a couple hundred kilometers 22:24 < newgenome> why? 22:24 < newgenome> same here 22:24 -!- percent [n=percent@66.158.193.32] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:24 < kanzure> hi percent 22:24 < kanzure> so, etchants for graphene? 22:24 < kanzure> I know you work with C60, so maybe also graphene knowledge? 22:25 < percent> I don't work with C60 (much). 22:25 < percent> Heh, good luck, especially with nanotubes 22:25 < percent> try ammonia 22:25 < percent> It'll work if they're not inert. (They're inert). 22:25 < fenn> percent: what about plasma etching? 22:25 < percent> other than that, enjoy your piranha etch 22:26 < percent> fenn: Depending on conditions, that may just create more nanoparticles 22:26 < fenn> shoot a reactive ion at a couple kV and it should tear up anything 22:26 < percent> Probably not graphene, but don't be surprised if you see nanotubes 22:26 < percent> oh, you want to use a focused ion beam for graphene? 22:26 < newgenome> good luck etching with ammonia when your trying to make 1 nm features 22:26 < percent> That'll do it. 22:26 < percent> FIB is a great technique. 22:26 < percent> However, you might find it hard to find one. 22:27 < kanzure> isn't plasma etching kinda like chemical vapor disposition processes? 22:27 < newgenome> so you could make graphen microchips 22:27 < kanzure> percent: we'll make one ... http://heybryan.org/instrumentation/instru.html should have some notes on that 22:27 < percent> kanzure: yes 22:28 < kanzure> hm, maybe not 22:28 < percent> Remember, heat + anything ferrous + carbon = nanotubes 22:28 < percent> also, plasma 22:28 < percent> you need that too 22:28 < newgenome> isn't there a better way to grow nanotubes? 22:28 < percent> kanzure: I am usually all for homemade lab equipment, as you well know 22:28 < kanzure> there was something in the news about radiowavelength plasma being applicable 22:28 < percent> However, where will you find gallium? 22:28 < kanzure> hm? 22:28 < fenn> percent: another idea, not sure what it's called.. you have the graphene under some solvent that isnt quite nasty enough to react, and then shine patterned UV laser light on it (bounced off a MEMS mirror array) 22:28 < newgenome> I have some 22:29 < bkero> http://unitednuclear.com/chem.htm 22:29 < percent> I happen to have MEMS mirror arrays :-) 22:29 < bkero> $10 a gram 22:29 < newgenome> in a tv? 22:29 < newgenome> or seperate? 22:29 < percent> separate 22:29 < newgenome> dang 22:29 < percent> kanzure: I switched labs. 22:29 < kanzure> something better? 22:29 < fenn> how much do they cost, ballpark? 22:30 < percent> Well, carbon nanomaterials will always have my heart 22:30 < percent> but my new project is actually MOVING FORWARD 22:30 -!- jk_ [n=jk@p57B746CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:30 * fenn gasps. someone said a dirty word 22:30 < percent> Because the professor is mean enough that all the bureaucrats shit themselves when he asks for something. 22:31 < newgenome> http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G15426 22:31 < newgenome> mems assembly 22:31 < newgenome> $3 22:31 < fenn> i have some of those 22:31 < kanzure> hm 22:31 < newgenome> slightly damaged 22:32 < percent> What exactly are you gentlemen trying to do? 22:32 < newgenome> dna synthesis 22:32 < percent> Also, may I remind you that nanoparticles are probably quite cytotoxic? 22:32 < fenn> several things, most interesting being self replicating robots 22:32 < percent> Oh, I know that 22:32 < percent> I just wanted to know why you wanted to screw with graphene. 22:32 < fenn> so, the graphene is an alternate process to create large numbers of small transistors 22:33 < kanzure> cheap computers 22:33 < kanzure> or cheap storage space 22:33 < newgenome> with a crapload of computational power 22:33 < fenn> go team 22:34 < percent> And you think you can do better than 45nm? 22:34 < newgenome> graphene is also cool because it is very strong 22:34 < percent> Make no mistake, I'm not saying you can't. 22:34 < fenn> it doesn't have to be anywhere near 45nm 22:34 < newgenome> probably not 22:34 < newgenome> just musing really 22:34 < percent> I'm not shitting on your ideas here, I'm down for biohacking from here to milwaukee. 22:34 -!- jk_ [n=jk@p57B746CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35 * fenn isnt quite sure how biohacking got into the conversation yet 22:35 < kanzure> uhm, 45 nm is ok? 22:35 < kanzure> because the diy stuff gets down to 100 nm sometimes 22:35 < fenn> 45nm is state of the art in Si fab 22:35 < kanzure> no, 45 nm graphene transistors 22:35 < kanzure> because the documentation says 10 nm 22:35 < fenn> kanzure: nfw DIY is getting 100nm 22:35 < percent> yeah, i'm also not too sure whether we really know how to design a processor 22:35 < kanzure> nfw? 22:36 < kanzure> percent: I do. 22:36 < newgenome> good point 22:36 < percent> you sure? 22:36 < fenn> neer a fine way 22:36 < percent> What's pipelining? No googling. 22:36 < kanzure> you mean data path pipelining? 22:36 < percent> Yes. 22:36 < kanzure> like of instructions and so on? 22:36 < kanzure> yeah 22:36 < fenn> that's where you do a bunch of extra work for no good reason :) 22:36 < percent> wrong 22:36 < kanzure> excuse me? 22:36 < kanzure> I'm fairly certain of this 22:36 < percent> talking to fenn 22:36 < kanzure> oh 22:36 < kanzure> :) 22:36 < bkero> Pipelining is rather important t o performance. 22:37 < Nade> it's very important 22:37 < kanzure> throw a few ALUs in and such 22:37 * fenn googles 22:37 -!- JanK [n=jk@p57B746CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:37 < kanzure> hobbyists commonly design their own 4 bit processors 22:37 < percent> So you're not looking to build some badass monster from hell 22:37 < kanzure> it's of course scalable if you actually care 22:37 < percent> Just a simple graphene processor, to see if you can? 22:37 < kanzure> if it works for small stuff then it's easily expanded 22:37 < newgenome> dude a microprocessor is really complex 22:37 * kanzure has drawn graphene circuits with pencil markings 22:37 < percent> btw, I now have access to a focused ion beam 22:37 < kanzure> newgenome: not 4 bit processors 22:38 < percent> In addition to all my other shit 22:38 < kanzure> the complexity is due to your automated generators 22:38 < newgenome> I don't think you have any idea how complex 22:38 < bkero> Uh 22:38 < fenn> percent: the idea is to reduce the infrastructure required to build a processor 22:38 < newgenome> well not 4 bit 22:38 < bkero> I've built them 22:38 < kanzure> you write out the circuits in Verilog or something 22:38 < kanzure> bkero: hurray 22:38 < bkero> Dude 22:38 < kanzure> then you agree with me? 22:38 < percent> newgenome: Tell us how complex they are. 22:38 < bkero> I work for intel, my landlord is on the validation team for Nehalem. 22:38 < percent> I KNOW it's possible to build a very, very simple processor. 22:38 < bkero> He works with crazy ass versions of verilog all day. 22:38 < kanzure> hahah 22:38 < kanzure> awesome 22:38 < kanzure> :) 22:38 < kanzure> So, automatic gate/wiring generators and such right? 22:38 < newgenome> 47 layers of several different materials in some of the least complex versions 22:39 < percent> I didn't say microprocessor, did I? 22:39 < kanzure> newgenome: ignore the Intel CISC stuff 22:39 < newgenome> ok 22:39 < percent> Photo litho is much harder. 22:39 < bkero> Intel does stupid shit because they're intel 22:39 < newgenome> well yeah 22:39 < percent> fucking faggots 22:39 < kanzure> percent: harder than what? 22:39 < bkero> Look at ARM processors 22:39 < kanzure> how did photo litho get in on this 22:39 < kanzure> bkero: sure, anything RISC is probably okay. 22:39 < percent> newgenome referenced it 22:39 < kanzure> yeah, he was probably thinking Intel's stuff 22:40 < kanzure> and as bkero says, 22:40 < kanzure> they do crazy shit because they are Intel :-) 22:40 < newgenome> photo lith is hard because photons are general bigger than the features they make 22:40 < percent> DESTINATION COMES BEFORE SOURCE LOL 22:40 < percent> Photo litho is hard because it requires special equipment 22:40 < newgenome> really 22:40 < percent> things we just can't do in our bathrooms. 22:40 < newgenome> that too 22:40 < kanzure> please remember who started photo lithography for processors back in their garages, ahem 22:41 < kanzure> some people put bathrooms in garages, IIRC 22:41 < percent> Okay, YOU align a mask by hand, then strip an oxide layer from an Si wafer 22:41 < bkero> Is it me, or ahs the industry gotten so pathetic, we in our bathrooms are competing with them? 22:41 < kanzure> anyway 22:41 < kanzure> back to the 100 nm question 22:41 < percent> i for one refuse to fuck with HF sans fume hood 22:41 < fenn> kanzure: i thought it started in NASA for spy satellites or something like that 22:41 < percent> really, really easy way to get dead 22:41 < newgenome> yeah, my old school's semiconductor fab used halogen lights to expose wafers 22:41 < kanzure> fenn: quite possibly ... I'd like a ref eventually 22:41 < bkero> I've always been a big fan of galvanic etching to get circuits. :) 22:42 < kanzure> is 100 nm resolution enough to make graphene transistors? 22:42 < fenn> yes, but, how are you going to get 100nm resolution? 22:42 < kanzure> apparently people have gotten down that far 22:42 < kanzure> hold on 22:42 < newgenome> maybe 22:43 < percent> may i remind you that nanotech is defined by the govt as <100nm? 22:43 < fenn> yay government 22:43 < newgenome> so what is anything below 100 nm? 22:43 < newgenome> femtotech? 22:43 < newgenome> chemistry? 22:44 < fenn> newgenome: um, maybe you should spend some time with wikipedia 22:45 < kanzure> who cares that nanotech is less than 100 nm? 22:45 < kanzure> by the govt? 22:45 < newgenome> facepalm 22:45 < kanzure> am I missing something? 22:45 < bkero> God damn it mythtv can eat my dick. WTF is with this qt crap? 22:45 < kanzure> qt? 22:45 < fenn> percent isn't branch prediction essential to getting pipelining to work? 22:45 < kanzure> :) 22:45 < bkero> like gtk vs qt 22:45 < kanzure> oh 22:45 * kanzure read "myth busters" 22:45 < percent> fenn: That's above my knowledge right now. 22:45 < kanzure> MythBusters on gtk vs qt would be awesome. 22:45 < kanzure> fenn: yes, it is 22:46 < kanzure> for good pipelining at least 22:46 < bkero> kanzure: I use neither. 22:46 < fenn> ok so i was right *gives self a cookie* 22:46 < bkero> Well, I use gtk for firefox, but thats it. 22:46 < kanzure> grr, 22:47 < kanzure> I've lost track of the amateur stm project that had 100 nm resolution 22:47 < fenn> stm != photolitho 22:47 < newgenome> yeah 22:47 < kanzure> photolitho would mean lenses, right? 22:47 < newgenome> yep 22:47 < fenn> or mirrors 22:47 < newgenome> I believe so 22:48 < fenn> i suppose you could use holograms if you had a way of making them fine enough 22:48 < kanzure> 1:1 correspondence with fineness? 22:48 < fenn> like a diffraction grating 22:48 < kanzure> you use lasers to make holograms 22:48 < kanzure> wait, why can't we use a laser again? 22:48 < kanzure> I forget. 22:48 < fenn> i dont think there are any 100nm lasers 22:48 < percent> WRONG 22:48 < fenn> meh 22:49 < percent> WRONG WRONG WRONG 22:49 < fenn> please explain 22:49 < percent> FENN IS WRON 22:49 < percent> HEY EVERYONE FENN IS WRONG 22:49 < kanzure> this is a good thing to be wrong about 22:49 < newgenome> as I said before they use uv light to make features much smaller than uv light 22:49 < percent> UV lasers are quite common 22:50 < newgenome> why don't we stick to biohacking 22:50 < newgenome> chip production seems a bit useless for biohacking 22:50 < percent> Why don't we stick to your mom 22:50 < newgenome> lol 22:52 < kanzure> mostly because we're trying to close the loop on manufacturing and bootstrap it ourselves 22:52 < kanzure> i.e., a von Neumann probe 22:52 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/projects/atoms/ has a good description of a von Neumann probe 22:53 < fenn> fluorine excimer is 157nm, and while i guess free electron lasers could go higher i'm not really sure how they work or whether it would be practical for etching graphene 22:53 < kanzure> 'The basic idea of a von Neumann probe is to have a space-probe that is able to navigate the galaxy and use self-replication (see RepRap and bio). The probe would contain hundreds of thousands of digital genomes (sequenced DNA), DNA synthesizers and sequencers, bacteria, embryos, stem cells, copies of the Internet Archive and a significant portion of the WWW in general, 22:53 < newgenome> yeah I know that 22:53 < kanzure> plus the immediate means and tools to copy all of the information and create a material embodiment, kind of like running an unzip utility on top of the thousands of exabytes predicted to be inexistence today. This would probably include many people, societies, even entire civilizations if we can collect enough data and begin to 'debug' civilization. The system might end up using an ion drive and a hydrogen collector, with on-board nucleosynthesis t 22:53 < newgenome> I know about VNMs 22:54 < newgenome> I work with reprap remember? 22:54 < newgenome> anyway 22:54 < newgenome> the best proposal I have seen for total replication is this 22:55 < fenn> wait, how do you define 'total replication'? 22:55 < newgenome> * In 1998, C. Phoenix [1171] informally sketched out a design for a macroscale kinematic replicator a few cubic feet in volume that would use two hydraulic-powered manipulator arms to machine, then assemble, its own components out of a soft plastic feedstock which would then be ultraviolet-cured to yield hard plastic parts, analogous to the stereolithography system offered by Vicale Corp.... 22:56 < newgenome> ...[934]. The acoustically-powered plastic replicator, composed of perhaps ~2000 parts, would be controlled by an onboard 8086-class computer built from cured-plastic fluidic logic elements including 1 KB of RAM, receiving instructions from a 1400-foot long strip of hole-punched control tape. Most details such as specific materials and assembly procedures, basic closure issues, process error... 22:56 < newgenome> ...rates, and accessibility of required machining tolerances were not explicitly addressed. 22:56 < newgenome> http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM/3.20.htm 22:56 < kanzure> bah, stop quoting Freitas 22:56 < newgenome> it's not freitas 22:56 < kanzure> KSRM is Freitas 22:56 < newgenome> oh 22:57 < kanzure> Chris Phoenix is the direct of the center for molecular nanotech or something 22:57 < kanzure> ethical stuff 22:57 < kanzure> he's turned somewhat environmentalist recently 22:57 < newgenome> the thing about fluidic logic elements is that you don't need that much accuracy to make them 22:57 < newgenome> this isn't using any nanotech 22:57 < kanzure> Freitas didn't actually have a design for his stuff. 22:57 < newgenome> I know 22:57 < kanzure> or that Phoenix design for example 22:57 < kanzure> :-( 22:57 < kanzure> so 22:57 < kanzure> that's where this project comes in 22:58 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/exp.html 22:58 < fenn> you dont need much accuracy to make a transistor either 22:58 < kanzure> we have a 'validator' 22:58 < kanzure> yeah, I was thinking about a giant jar with electrodes for a transistor once 22:58 < kanzure> a gel or liquid inside or some such 22:58 < kanzure> anyway, 22:58 < kanzure> we have a 'validator' to check if a design is self-replicating 22:58 < kanzure> sort of. :) 22:58 < fenn> we do? 22:58 < kanzure> well 22:58 < kanzure> no 22:58 < newgenome> but this is elementally cheaper 22:58 < kanzure> but theoretically we do 22:58 < kanzure> if we weren't so lazy 22:58 * fenn yawns 22:58 < kanzure> hm? 22:59 < kanzure> look, you validate by checking whether or not all models exist 22:59 < kanzure> so 22:59 < newgenome> as in no machinery is needed to purify silicon and what not 22:59 < kanzure> pseudocode: if the dependencies are nonexistent, it's bullshit 22:59 < kanzure> oh 22:59 < kanzure> I guess this is a good time to bring up http://heybryan.org/fractal.html as well ... since we have so many arguments on the definition of self-replication ;-) 22:59 < newgenome> you could make fluidic logic gates from melted down rocks 23:00 < kanzure> Wittig, the guy on campus, was yelling at me about this 23:00 < kanzure> wait, what ? 23:00 < kanzure> the linkydinky ones? 23:01 < newgenome> you don't have to dedicate machinery to obtaining near pure silicon from the rocks 23:01 < newgenome> no 23:02 < fenn> you can also make logic gates out of rods, sorta like tinkertoys 23:02 < fenn> or relays, or vacuum tubes 23:02 < kanzure> relays? 23:02 < kanzure> yep 23:02 < fenn> and probably a million other things 23:02 < newgenome> fluidic logic gates don't wear out 23:03 < fenn> are you sure about that? 23:03 < newgenome> just as long as stuff doesn't grow in your fluid 23:04 < newgenome> and your fluid is filtered 23:04 < fenn> i've seen some fluidics sequencers for fountains, but they were very simple and rather slow compared to, say, a vacuum tube 23:05 < fenn> so if you can get a trillion switching events out of your vacuum tube, and a trillion switching events out of your sequencer, which is better? 23:05 < fenn> wah 23:05 < newgenome> check this out: http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/COMMS/fluidicgramophone/fluidgram.htm 23:06 < fenn> not a very good diagram 23:07 < newgenome> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidics 23:07 < fenn> there are other amplifiers that have no moving parts, no high purity ingredients, and don't wear out 23:07 < fenn> look up saturable core reactor, aka magnetic amplifier 23:07 < newgenome> then you have to mine iron 23:08 < kanzure> bacteria could do that 23:08 < kanzure> or you just drill and melt and do whatever else it is you do to mine iron 23:09 < newgenome> http://www.blikstein.com/paulo/projects/project_water.html 23:09 < newgenome> good point 23:09 < kanzure> MIT Media Lab? 23:09 < kanzure> we've had people from there show up in here 23:09 < newgenome> yup 23:09 < kanzure> wait 23:09 < kanzure> this is down the hall from David 23:10 < newgenome> but fluidic logic gates do have problems 23:10 < newgenome> especially if your VNM lives in space 23:11 < newgenome> fluids tend to evaporate in a vaccuum 23:11 < fenn> or in general 23:13 < bkero> fluids evaporate in general? 23:13 < fenn> yes 23:14 < bkero> If they've achieved equal temperature with the gasses above them, why would they? 23:14 < newgenome> there is also trouble in obtaining fluid on say an asteroid 23:14 < fenn> bkero: because statistical variation will ensure that a molecule at the surface will reach vaporization temperature 23:15 < fenn> did that make sense? 23:15 < kanzure> newgenome: ice 23:15 < fenn> the tip of the boltzmann distribution will be hot enough to be gaseous 23:15 < newgenome> yeah I just thought that 23:15 < kanzure> :p 23:15 < kanzure> hehe 23:16 < fenn> god wikipedia sucks at math 23:16 < newgenome> so what are your ideas on getting energy for a VNM? 23:17 < newgenome> solar or anything else? 23:17 < fenn> solar power is pretty straightforward 23:17 < fenn> geothermal is also easy 23:18 < fenn> not molten magma stuff, just the small 10-20 C difference between air and underground 23:18 < newgenome> so is the VNM we are designing going to live on earth or some other place 23:18 < fenn> different designs for different environments 23:18 < fenn> hard to experiment with designs for asteroids right now :) 23:19 < newgenome> so let's get something that works on earth 23:19 < kanzure> right 23:19 < kanzure> the idea of 'skdb' is to throw a lot of manufacturing processes into the 'pot' and then find dependency loops between them 23:19 < kanzure> supposedly, these processes that can make each other's machinery and so on will be a 'von neumann probe' 23:19 < newgenome> water and air are readily available 23:20 < kanzure> well, not a VNM, but a self-replicator 23:20 < kanzure> ad hoc design is not going to work really 23:20 < newgenome> macroscale or something a bit smaller? 23:20 < fenn> macroscale is easier to work with 23:20 < kanzure> yep 23:20 < newgenome> microscale replication is very easy 23:20 < fenn> pfff 23:20 < kanzure> hands and some elbow grease 23:20 < kanzure> haha 23:21 < fenn> where did this myth come from? 23:21 < kanzure> that's why Jupiter replicates itself every night! 23:21 < newgenome> John Szostak 23:21 < newgenome> he's trying to recreate some of the first life forms on earth 23:21 < fenn> and what were the first life forms on earth like? 23:21 < kanzure> reverse engineering of the RNA world? 23:21 < newgenome> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg&eurl=http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/06/wondering_how_life_got_started.php 23:22 < newgenome> mainly protocells 23:22 < fenn> i refuse to watch a youtube of some guy talking about his blog 23:22 < kanzure> hm, pharnygula has an irc channel 23:22 < kanzure> probably lots of dawkin people :) 23:23 < newgenome> fast forward to about 3:38 23:23 < newgenome> 4:00 might be better 23:23 < newgenome> http://www.exploringorigins.org/ 23:23 < newgenome> this is good too 23:24 < newgenome> it explains why dna strands are double stranded 23:24 < kanzure> newgenome: Andy's favorite subject is the RNA world 23:24 < newgenome> yeah RNA world is fun stuff 23:24 < kanzure> he's coauthored with Stuart Kauffman and so on 23:24 < kanzure> so he's kind of in the loops .. 23:24 < newgenome> did you watch the video yet 23:25 < kanzure> no, I'm fighting Cell 23:25 < newgenome> lol 23:25 < newgenome> http://www.exploringorigins.org/nucleicacids.html 23:26 < newgenome> the third video on this page is a good example of the type of replication you are talking about 23:28 < newgenome> the point is that on the molecular scale things self organize making replication easier 23:28 < kanzure> replication is a wee bit more than just copying bits of course 23:28 < newgenome> yeah 23:28 < fenn> you have to make the bits too 23:29 < kanzure> bit fairydust? 23:29 < kanzure> pixy/pixeldust? 23:29 < newgenome> on the macroscale it's hard to get self organization going 23:29 < newgenome> you need an assembler 23:30 < fenn> newgenome: feynman said it pretty well "i think god has pretty good quality control on atoms" 23:30 < newgenome> do you have any ideas on making one? 23:30 < fenn> of course this ignores isotopes an so on :0 23:30 < newgenome> yeah 23:30 < fenn> a macroscale assembler? 23:30 < newgenome> yeah 23:31 < newgenome> an assembler that puts together the machine that makes the bits 23:31 < newgenome> or assemblers 23:31 < fenn> woops, that was drexler, not feynman 23:32 < fenn> newgenome: i think you could do a lot with ceramics and a holy length artifact 23:32 < fenn> like a double ball bar for example 23:33 < fenn> since the replicators don't have to interact with each other much, drift in the calibration standards wouldn't be such a big problem as it is in a constantly churning and intermixing civilization 23:33 < fenn> (like our own) 23:33 < newgenome> I don't know what you mean 23:33 < fenn> as long as all the parts fit together, it doesn't matter if your extruder nozzle is exactly 1mm in diameter 23:34 < newgenome> do you mean like natural selection or having people maintain them 23:34 < kanzure_> There was a ridiculous lack of laptops. 23:34 < fenn> kanzure_: you should write to nicholas negroponte 23:34 < newgenome> you also have to move that extruder precisely enough to make parts 23:35 < newgenome> which brings me to another point about fluidic logic gates 23:35 < newgenome> they do not have to be made very accurately 23:35 < kanzure> woah 23:35 < newgenome> in order to work 23:36 < kanzure> that was an old message from the other machine 23:36 < kanzure> keyboard on floor 23:36 < kanzure> ignore 23:36 < fenn> yes, the bay area savages 23:36 < fenn> they are so primitive, i hear many of them are forced to ride bicycles to work 23:38 < newgenome> this should help you understand fluidics: http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/10/03/fluid-transistor-circuits/ 23:40 < kanzure> can't we just throw this into our (supposed) computational system so that we don't have to remember everything each time we try a new route? 23:40 < kanzure> blah 23:40 < kanzure> that was the idea in the first place .. 23:41 -!- cow_town [n=cowtown@71.237.209.152] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:41 < kanzure> Hi cow_town 23:41 -!- cow_town [n=cowtown@71.237.209.152] has left #hplusroadmap [] 23:42 < newgenome> so the next big thing on this fluidic system is the replicability of the the hydraulic arms and accuracy of the extruder positioning system 23:46 < kanzure> newgenome: I'm going to hit the sack since I have an 830 calculus class I'd rather not miss, this morning being the first day and the first missed class 23:46 < newgenome> same here 23:46 < kanzure> but there's a bit more to mention 23:47 < kanzure> so maybe that could be for another time? 23:47 < newgenome> cay 23:47 < newgenome> cay 23:47 < newgenome> cya 23:47 < kanzure> heh' 23:47 -!- newgenome [n=chatzill@resnet-47-165.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208]"] 23:47 < kanzure> hm 23:47 < kanzure> he's not an idler? 23:51 < JanK> so this is hplusroadmap. nice to read. 23:51 < kanzure> Hi JanK. 23:51 * kanzure wonders who JanK is 23:52 < willPow3r_> jan k 23:52 < JanK> may be you remember me: metamath.org offlist from exi-chat 23:52 < kanzure> Hm? 23:52 < kanzure> hm 23:52 < kanzure> 23:52 < kanzure> "Jan Klauck" 23:53 < JanK> yes. :) 23:54 < JanK> I was compiling some stuff and tooke the time to have a look at your channel. 23:54 < kanzure> Integrated Assessment Center? 23:54 < kanzure> Red Queen? 23:54 < kanzure> Hm. 23:54 < JanK> not center, just integrated assessment 23:55 < JanK> well, red queen was a (lame) class project 23:55 < kanzure> heh 23:55 < kanzure> red queen's race is a common theme around here 23:55 < JanK> sure, but our implementation sucked 23:55 < JanK> it was about multi agent systems 23:56 < kanzure> in which context? 23:56 < JanK> complex adaptive systems 23:56 < kanzure> agents like, ' "intelligent" agents' 23:56 < kanzure> ha 23:56 < kanzure> *ah 23:57 < JanK> not in this class :( 23:57 < JanK> the agents were anything but intelligent. pure reactive architecture 23:58 < kanzure> more like cellular automata? 23:58 < percent> your mom is a sexual automata 23:58 < percent> I just noticed there aren't any ops here. 23:58 < percent> Why? 23:58 < kanzure> my mom is a stripper 23:58 < kanzure> go away 23:58 < JanK> not like ca 23:58 < kanzure> percent: dunno 23:58 < kanzure> didn't think about it really 23:59 < percent> I just noticed I hadn't been banned yet 23:59 < percent> And I wondered why 23:59 < willPow3r_> its because you're gay 23:59 < percent> Since I'm so rarely helpful to the conversation 23:59 < percent> there, NOW you guys are acting like hackers 23:59 < percent> the fuck is up with this professional shit 23:59 < kanzure> professional? 23:59 < percent> you're like 23:59 < willPow3r_> its what happens when you try to accomplish something using intelligence 23:59 < percent> not cursing or talking about goatse