--- Day changed Thu Aug 28 2008 00:00 < kanzure> not when you're around 00:00 < percent> Never, ever doubt the power of smart people doing dumb things. 00:00 < kanzure> hm 00:00 < kanzure> maybe we could use an extra uberhacker on board or something 00:00 < kanzure> a russian guy 00:00 < kanzure> anybody know a russian? 00:01 < willPow3r_> i speak it 00:01 < kanzure> accent? 00:01 < willPow3r_> when requested 00:01 < kanzure> vodka? 00:02 * kanzure sleeps 00:02 < willPow3r_> considering the average russian citizen ingests 10 gallons of vodka per year, that goes without saying 00:05 < percent> I speak jive. 00:05 < percent> And hick. 00:06 < percent> thought it were finna to be another storm but it done come up a frog strangler 00:06 < percent> see? 00:09 < willPow3r_> impressive. can you juggle too? 00:35 -!- JanK [n=jk@p57B746CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:57 < percent> not as well as your mom can juggle dicks 01:04 < willPow3r_> she learned from the best, who happens to be your mom 01:19 < percent> who learned from the best, who happens to be YOUR mom 01:29 < willPow3r_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxx2KcPWWZg 01:38 < willPow3r_> so dick juggling then appears to be a recursive learning process 02:19 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:20 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:11 -!- biopunk [n=p@h246n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:55 -!- faceface [n=dbolser@bioinformatics.org] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:09 < kanzure> Hey faceface. 04:20 < faceface> hello kanzure 04:20 < faceface> my xchat died yesterday, so I don't know if you replied to my 'people are obstacles' comment 04:20 < kanzure> I don't think I even saw it. 04:21 < faceface> heheh 04:21 < kanzure> What were we talking about? 04:21 < faceface> I was just saying that people (the people that seem to do nothing but get in the way) need to be negotiated just like any other physical obstacle 04:21 < faceface> kanzure, I just picked up on a comment you made 04:22 < kanzure> "Dear Rock, blocking my path, would you be so kind as to move, and in exchange I have this beautiful daughter." 04:23 < faceface> to create a vacuum you need to go to lengths to get the machinery right... although it is a pain, you need to go to lenghs to achieve your goals in the face of people... silly lazy dumb people 04:24 < faceface> the point is, don't get bitter, mad, angry, etc. just get on with it ;-) 04:30 -!- Nofaris [n=Nofaris@adsl-75-42-94-197.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:37 < bkero> Somehow I think offering your daughter up has fallen out of vogue. 04:45 < willPow3r_> only in first-world countries 04:55 < bkero> and second world 05:06 -!- jk4930_ [n=jk@p57B73AA5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:13 -!- jk4930_ [n=jk@p57B73AA5.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #hplusroadmap ["Konversation terminated!"] 06:01 -!- nsh- [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:29 -!- nsh [n=nsh@eduroam-52.uta.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:50 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220.253-207-176.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit ["That is not dead Which can eternal lie, And with strange eons Even death may die."] 08:55 -!- Nade [n=lixasd@cpc2-clif5-0-0-cust516.nott.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 09:53 -!- Nofaris [n=Nofaris@adsl-75-42-94-197.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:55 -!- ybit [n=h@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:12 -!- nsh [n=nsh@eduroam-52.uta.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:20 -!- Nade [n=lixasd@cpc2-clif5-0-0-cust516.nott.cable.ntl.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:38 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:20 -!- jk4930 [n=jklauck@cip31.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:38 < percent> faceface: People in your way should be thoroughly annihilated. 13:40 * kanzure just visited the Texas Petawatt Laser. 13:41 < jk4930> oh hi, back from the UT? 13:41 < jk4930> (that's me, JanK. I changed the nick) 13:42 < kanzure> also, the CAD class is some good fun ... three hour computer lab "come and go as you please but please stay I'd like to think you like me", two hour lecture on stuffs, and then a one hour period in the evening to do personal reverse engineering projects 13:42 < kanzure> plus we get free access to the rapid prototyper 13:47 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Event_format#The_real_code_sucks <-- something is wrong .. 13:50 < kanzure> hm, got it somewhat fixed 13:50 < kanzure> just not outputting the correct output 13:50 < kanzure> which I guess isn't much of a fix 13:50 < kanzure> the problem was with the method of checking array size, apparently perl prefers @array to get the size of the array when doing a numerical comparison 14:06 < nsh> cast as scalar? 14:06 < kanzure> right 14:07 < nsh> what goes wrong if you use the regular way? (is it #@array ? god, it's been too long) 14:07 < kanzure> weird, I'm doing redundant checks though 14:07 < nsh> perl used to often surprise me, but there was always some logic to what it did 14:07 < kanzure> $#array is supposed to do it, and it does when I print "number: ", $#array, 14:07 < nsh> that one 14:07 < nsh> ah 14:07 < kanzure> but it didn't do its job when I was doing an if statement on it 14:07 < nsh> because you used the list form of print 14:07 < kanzure> so just saying if (@remainingevents > 1) works 14:08 < nsh> so it tried to make a list out of $#array 14:08 < kanzure> oh 14:08 < kanzure> not sure 14:08 < nsh> if you did print "number:" . $#array 14:08 < kanzure> the print statement *did* work 14:08 < nsh> it would work, (i'd bet) 14:08 < kanzure> that's not the issue 14:08 < nsh> oh ok 14:09 < kanzure> I'll do a dump in a sec if anybody wants to play around with it 14:10 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/projects/calendar/ 14:10 < kanzure> don't forget to mkdir calendars 14:13 * nsh might look later if he remembers 14:13 < elias`> someone's probably written some fancy way to do something like this to get relevancy to self (but gives better results): given a pool of information sources, get first part of relevancy score based on some method that looks for the content, author, etc. and secondly, items (like papers) that are more referenced by other items get a higher score, based on the existing relevancy metric for the referencing items, authors or such. 14:13 < elias`> hope that makes more sense than I usually seem to make :( 14:14 < kanzure> the word you are looking for is "impact factor" 14:14 < kanzure> and it's an evil, evil thing 14:14 < elias`> why is that? 14:15 < kanzure> people lose jobs because they publish somewhere with an impact factor of such-and-such 14:15 < kanzure> they use it to sort people and ideas ... 14:16 < nsh> well 14:16 < nsh> the measure and how it's used are different things 14:16 < kanzure> course 14:16 < nsh> they're allowed different evil-values 14:16 < kanzure> oh? 14:17 < elias`> I think it would be useful for personal information handling. I find it would just automate part of what I already do 14:17 < nsh> sure, an well-practices MBA can inject evil quotient into anything 14:17 < kanzure> I disagree 14:17 < kanzure> and don't want to talk about why right now, elias` 14:17 < kanzure> statistics is teh evils, just read everything 14:18 < kanzure> http://asarya.com/ 14:19 < kanzure> now, there's some work on decyphering the underlying structure of the web of science unbeknownst to us and perhaps even the practicioners 14:19 < kanzure> i.e., somewhat through semantic filtering and so on 14:19 < kanzure> and then finding the subgraphs and so on 14:19 < kanzure> but this doesn't necessarily correlate with semantic terrain 14:19 < kanzure> argh 14:19 < kanzure> what a mess we're in. 14:19 * kanzure gets a mop 14:20 < kanzure> (and it's not a kosher mess, either) 14:20 < elias`> I think I should weigh the incoming information according to the quality of the results. All else being equal, bump the probability of showing queueing/showing info with a high impact factor somewhat. 14:20 < elias`> s/showing// 14:21 < kanzure> oh, yes, I know what you're saying :p 14:21 < kanzure> and have even considered my own such systems before 14:38 -!- Nade is now known as Nade|food 14:51 -!- jk4930 [n=jklauck@cip31.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has left #hplusroadmap ["Konversation terminated!"] 14:54 -!- Nade|food is now known as Nade 15:28 < kanzure> oh 15:28 < kanzure> why am I using a foreach looper 15:28 < kanzure> just check the next element in the array 15:29 < kanzure> and fork linearly when there's no conflict, and by 2 when either the current or the next one could be picked 15:29 < kanzure> it's overall kind of linear, but it might work better than this piece of junk I presently have up 16:30 -!- Nade [n=lixasd@cpc2-clif5-0-0-cust516.nott.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 16:31 -!- jk4930 [n=jk@p57B73AA5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:01 -!- jk4930 [n=jk@p57B73AA5.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #hplusroadmap ["Konversation terminated!"] 17:03 < kanzure> http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/ 17:03 < kanzure> same old same old 17:11 < kanzure> http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/AASM53.html#536 17:12 < kanzure> closure in self-replicating systems 17:12 < kanzure> "Consider, for example, the problem of parts closure. Imagine that the entire factory and all of its machines are broken down into their component parts. If the original factory cannot fabricate every one of these items, then parts closure does not exist and the system is not fully self-replicating ." 17:12 < kanzure> Hurray! 17:12 * kanzure virtually hugs Freitas 17:16 < fenn> freitas had it figured out 17:16 < fenn> i'd like to see more in detail how they actually calculated closure etc 17:17 < kanzure> 'An approach to the problem of closure in real engineering-systems is to begin with the issue of parts closure by asking the question: can a set of machines produce all of its elements? If the manufacture of each part requires, on average, the addition of >1 new parts to product it, then an infinite number of parts are required in the initial system and complete closure cannot be achieved. On the other hand, if the mean number of new parts per origina 17:18 * kanzure still finds Freitas to be a mysterious fellow .. 17:18 < kanzure> 'The minimum size of a self-sufficient "machine economy" remains unknown.' 17:18 * kanzure thinks this is sounding like computer science => 'computational engineering' or some such. 17:19 < kanzure> 'Closure engineering In actual practice, the achievement of full closure will be a highly complicated, iterative engineering design process. Every factory system, subsystem, component structure, and input requirement (Miller and Smith, 1979) must be carefully matched against known factory output capabilities. Any gaps in the manufacturing flow must be filled by the introduction of additional machines, whose own construction and operation may create ne 17:19 < kanzure> 'Closure engineering' 17:19 < kanzure> I remember seeing this paper back in the day, but not this particular section 17:20 < kanzure> is it a good sign that others come to the same results as you? 17:20 < kanzure> I guess I can't say I'm not contaminated though .. 17:23 < fenn> i had this idea before i ever started reading about anything 17:24 < kanzure> neat 17:24 < fenn> it comes from actually having to work with limited resources, instead of just an academic "proof of concept" like reprap 17:24 < kanzure> being broke? 17:25 < kanzure> or in the concept space of "on the moon you don't actually have anything yet" 17:25 < fenn> sorta.. i dont expect anyone to spend $20k on a lathe 17:25 < fenn> but also a general lack of manufacturing knowledge in my community and out-groups 17:26 < kanzure> the lack of manufacturing knowledge where I grew up is staggering 17:26 < kanzure> dad = ran a silicon fab as a manager of a few teams, but he doesn't count 17:26 < kanzure> common daily objects taken for granted, no hints as to the troubles some poor guy had to go through drafting the thing up 17:26 < kanzure> btw, I have to admit the 'drafting' / CAD class is actually the funnest so far 17:26 < fenn> i'm not sure silicon fab is even in the same semantic territory 17:27 < kanzure> the si fab funding came from the 60's - 80's, whereas everything else is as old as fart 17:27 < fenn> like i'm dropping balls off the tower of piza over here and they're doing high energy particle physics 17:28 < fenn> what programs are you using in cad class? 17:28 < kanzure> I knew the answer to this question until you asked me 17:28 < kanzure> Solidworks 17:29 < fenn> ah, the working-man's cad :) 17:29 < fenn> that's computer aid drafting, fwiw 17:30 < kanzure> hm? 17:30 < kanzure> oh, the first sentence being wrong 17:30 < kanzure> on the wikipedia page 17:31 * kanzure realizes he didn't link to it 17:31 < kanzure> so what's the context? 17:31 < fenn> i just mean there's a difference between drafting and design 17:31 < kanzure> to what extent 17:31 < kanzure> drafting, I know, is making out the schematics and such 17:32 < fenn> well, when drafting you come up with the design in your head and put it down on paper 17:32 < fenn> with design, you have an idea, then throw a bunch of random thoughts on the paper and let it grow into a design 17:32 < kanzure> fun stuff 17:32 < kanzure> that's kind of how I work obviously 17:32 < kanzure> throw a bunch of crap at people and see what sticks/grows 17:32 < fenn> human-aided design :) 17:33 < kanzure> "ok, move just three inches to the left, don't move -- just stay right there" 17:33 < fenn> now, solidworks is a lot more design-ey than cad programs of the past 17:34 < fenn> but i'm an unreasonable man 17:34 < fenn> "" wtf!! 17:34 < fenn> The educational edition is always 1 year behind the industry edition" 17:35 < kanzure> is that .. smart ? 17:38 -!- Nofaris [n=Nofaris@adsl-75-42-94-197.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:29 < kanzure> http://www.me.utexas.edu/msi/ 18:29 < kanzure> hm, automated design lab 18:29 < kanzure> http://www.me.utexas.edu/~adl/ 18:31 < kanzure> http://www.me.utexas.edu/~campbell/index.htm 'Most recently, we have focused on graph grammars as a universal way to capture the design decisions in engineering.' 18:31 < kanzure> http://www.me.utexas.edu/~campbell/ME392C.htm design optimization and automation 18:33 < kanzure> http://www.me.utexas.edu/~adl/graphsynth/ 18:33 < kanzure> 'With GraphSynth, one can design, implement, test, and automatically invoke grammar rules that transform a graph from an initial seed into 18:33 < kanzure> a creative design.' 18:33 < kanzure> '. Electric circuits, truss structures, and chemical processes are just a few of the artifacts of engineering design that are easily represented by graphs. When viewing the artifact as a graph constructed from an initial simpler graph that describes the problem, one needs to develop a set of rules to capture the valid transformations that can occur. The grammar rules, organized into rule sets are then subject to a generation process. ' 18:34 < kanzure> hm 18:35 < kanzure> http://www.me.utexas.edu/~adl/graphsynth/examples.htm 18:35 < kanzure> interesting. 18:52 -!- ybit [n=h@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:56 * kanzure emailed the prof 18:56 < kanzure> he apparently does some electronic music in a band 18:57 < kanzure> so I dropped a reference to it for extra points 19:14 -!- Nofaris [n=Nofaris@adsl-75-42-94-197.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:17 < kanzure> fenn: David claims that if I can get (1) room/space and (2) a professor onboard that he can get a fab lab down here for me. 19:17 < kanzure> David as in our Gershenfeld/Minsky fellow. 19:17 < fenn> they should have done that already, meh :P 19:18 < kanzure> well 19:18 < kanzure> I'm wondering if I can strategically make this my "be lazy and have a fab lab" dream thingy 19:18 < fenn> the 'automated design lab' stuff looks very limited in scope, more low-level processes (not that that's bad) 19:19 < fenn> not having to move from your present situation definitely qualifies as 'be lazy' 19:19 < kanzure> mm 19:20 < fenn> austin + fab lab = attractive 19:20 < fenn> i mean, at least it's not boston 19:20 < kanzure> fab lab - payment charges = sexy 19:20 < fenn> what payment charges? 19:20 < kanzure> FabLab is an actual company 19:20 < fenn> huh? 19:21 < kanzure> spun off from Make Magazine 19:21 < kanzure> :-( 19:21 < fenn> wtf!@!!!!!! 19:21 < kanzure> yeah 19:21 < kanzure> yes 19:21 < kanzure> wait 19:21 < fenn> why didnt i know that? 19:22 < fenn> please find a link so i'm not simply relying on your memory 19:23 < kanzure> wikipedia tells me FabLab is from MIT Media Lab 19:23 < kanzure> wait a moment 19:23 < kanzure> uhm, there must be another one out there then. 19:23 < kanzure> the one with the $100/mo membership fees 19:23 < fenn> fablab is gershenfeld's research project "what would people do with a star-trek replicator" experiment 19:23 < kanzure> I could have sworn this other one was called fablab too 19:23 < fenn> you might be thinking of tech shop, or .. the people in #make 19:23 < kanzure> techshop! 19:24 < kanzure> okay 19:24 < kanzure> good 19:24 < fenn> apparently you have to buy your own tool bits to use the stuff at techshop because it's so badly abused 19:25 < kanzure> http://techshop.ws/ 19:25 < fenn> it is a neat idea though 19:27 < kanzure> I think I can go talk to the actlab guys, they'll like this ... and they have the space for it 19:27 < fenn> cool 19:29 < fenn> i'm making an inventory system in yaml and i cant figure out how to do nested structures and still be able to manipulate stuff 19:29 < fenn> so i regressed to flat table-like structure with ID's for everything 19:29 < fenn> :( 19:30 < fenn> it might just be my brain stuck in OO mode 19:33 < kanzure> have you ever seen a non-OOP inventory system 19:33 < kanzure> and if so, please explain 19:33 < kanzure> meanwhile, I'm running out to conquer some robots. 19:38 < fenn> flat table-like is not very OO imho 19:38 < fenn> there are zillions of them 19:38 < fenn> anything SQL or "database" 19:39 < bkero> You can have inventory systems that aren't OOP 19:39 < bkero> You can't have individual incidents though 19:39 < fenn> individual incidents? 19:39 < bkero> Right 19:39 < bkero> Like separate cases for each entry 19:39 < fenn> i dont know what that means 19:40 < bkero> You have tables that relate to each other 19:40 < fenn> like multiple orders of the same product? 19:40 < bkero> But no tables binding them together 19:40 < bkero> so a list of phone numbers 19:40 < bkero> and a list of names 19:40 < bkero> But no foreign key between them 19:41 < fenn> thats a bad example.. phone numbers and names usually have a 1:1 correspondence 19:41 < bkero> Ok 19:41 < bkero> Number of the times I skullfuck you in one table, and amount of times you cry in another. 19:41 < fenn> hmmm 19:42 < bkero> You can use that format for anything you don't need relational mapping for. 19:42 < bkero> Mostly statistical analysis. 19:42 < fenn> ok, sounds stupid 19:43 < fenn> the point is to keep track of everything in minute detail 19:43 < bkero> You do 19:43 < bkero> You just don't have the relatio 19:43 < bkero> n 19:44 < bkero> Which has benefits and drawbacks. 19:44 < fenn> what are the benefits? 19:45 < bkero> More straight forward inner joins and smaller sizes 19:46 < bkero> It's O(n) instead of O(n log n) for inner joins based off foreign keys. 20:20 -!- Nade [n=lixasd@cpc2-clif5-0-0-cust516.nott.cable.ntl.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:34 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:43 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:44 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220.253-207-176.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:11 -!- smurf [n=p@h122n2c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:17 -!- smurf is now known as biopunk 23:49 < ybit> [22:42] YAGO? 23:49 < ybit> [22:42] http://wiki.dbpedia.org/Datasets 23:49 < ybit> [22:42] "and 75,000 YAGO categories." 23:49 < ybit> [22:42] *** JamesonTai is now known as JamesonTai|zZz. 23:49 < ybit> [22:43] surely not "Yet Another Gigabit Operation" 23:49 < ybit> surprisingly #wikipedia is silent on this 23:50 < ybit> no, not concerning jamesontai going to bed 23:51 < ybit> perhaps http://www.mpi-inf.mpg.de/~suchanek/downloads/yago/ ? 23:51 < ybit> that would make sense, yes 23:51 < ybit> okay, thanks ybit