--- Day changed Sat Sep 06 2008
00:08 < pk> so what's new in transhumanism today?
00:09 < pk> I saw Dean Kamen featured on the news with his "Luke hand", good to see that getting more press
00:10 < gene> it's not a neural interface
00:10 < fenn> it's not?
00:10 < gene> it's not anything like direct neural interfacing
00:10 < gene> it has balloons that provide feedback
00:10 < fenn> i thought they used the nerve stubs left in the chest (previously controlled the arm but now dead)
00:11 < gene> nope
00:12 < gene> it is also some control software
00:12 < pk> it's controlled by muscles further up the arm
00:12 < pk> iirc
00:14 < pk> there is an arm that's controllable via neural interface though
00:14 < gene> guess they got some sort of neuron interfacing going with it now
00:15 < fenn> apparently the luke arm is flexible enough to use several different input sources
00:15 < fenn> one of them is the nerve-stub-in-the-chest method; search for kuiken http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/print/5957 
00:16 < pk> I'm interested in Dean Kamen's ability to hyperfocus on one specific problem
00:16 < pk> and use the best in current technologies to address it
00:16 < gene> cool
00:16 < gene> there really needs to be a better way to interface with neurons
00:18 < fenn> i read a popular article yesterday about implanting chips into moth pupae, the moth brain then grows around the chip
00:19 < fenn> so.. how bout them SQUIDs
00:19 < pk> yeah I saw that before
00:20 < gene> Moths != human
00:21 < fenn> gene: i bet a human brain would grow around and interface with a chip implanted when it was an embryo
00:22 < gene> yeah, but then you might end up with developmental problems
00:22 < fenn> well shit, i've got eyeglasses and bad wisdom teeth, dont you consider that a developmental problem?
00:22 < pk> heh
00:22 < pk> well that would be an interesting experiment to try on mice
00:26 < fenn> wow SQUID can do NMR in a microtesla field
00:27 < gene> can squid see individual neurons?
00:29 < fenn> since it has extremely high temporal resolution, you could discriminate between separate firing events , but i cant think of a way to map that onto a particular neuron, because it has low spatial resolution (?)
00:30 < gene> dang
00:30 < fenn> maybe some way to do phased array sensing at high frequencies (small wavelength)
00:30 < fenn> but i dont even know the words to describe what i'm thinking
00:31 < fenn> anyway, the ability to do nmr in normal earth magnetic field gets you fMRI at least
00:32 < gene> you can do fMRI 
00:32 < gene> using Earth's magnetic field?
00:32 < fenn> with a sensitive enough detector
00:34 < fenn> hmm one nice thing about vinge-style laser contacts is that you could read with your eyes closed
00:35 < gene> laser contacts
00:35 < gene> ?
00:36 < fenn> as seen in _Rainbows_End_
00:36 < fenn> goes in your eye, connected to wearable computers, displays a virtual reality overlay
00:37 < fenn> squid is only one half of input/output
00:38 < gene> haven't read that one yet
00:38 < fenn> although... (and why hasnt anyone else said anyting about it?) you could use phased array microwaves as a highly selective rTMS-ish input device
00:39 < fenn> using the same superconducting coils as the microwave antennae
00:39 < fenn> or however squid works.. /me reads more
00:40 < gene> maybe one could make an mri contrasting agent
00:40 < gene> that responds to sodium gradients
00:41 < fenn> er... water?
00:42 < fenn> hydrogen is really useful for nmr/mri because it is so light
00:43 < gene> sodium is useful to look for because when neurons signal they do something with it
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00:50 < fenn> graah
00:51 < fenn> why do i bother
00:51  * fenn dumps some text anyway
00:51 < fenn> The concentration of sodium in normal soft human tissues is 20-80 micromol/g wet weight, or about 1/1600th of the water hydrogen concentration which forms the basis of conventional magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). In addition, sodium's MRI sensitivity is only about 9 percent of hydrogen's. Despite these enormous handicaps, sodium imaging at clinical MRI field strengths of 1.5 Tesla with ~0.2 ml resolution is practical in ~15 min scan times or less.
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02:52 < ybit> i know why i'm getting fat!
02:52 < ybit> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080904102804.htm
02:55 < ybit> it's only natural in geniuses
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02:57 < ybit> so what is the optimum overweight size and what is the correlation between krispy kreme donuts intake and intelligence?
02:58 < ybit> no debating if i should eat the last box of dozen donuts at the student organizations, it's for my brain
02:58 < ybit> or so i will rationalize :P
03:07 < fenn> wtf is 'excessive calorie intake' anyway
03:08 < fenn> calories have nothing to do with obesity
03:09 < fenn> its not like your brain is a diesel engine
04:04 < Phreedom> fenn: but drain does consume quite a lot of energy
04:04 < Phreedom> of course only if you actually use it
04:14 < Phreedom> *brain
04:14 < Phreedom> :)
04:21 < fenn> the scientists are making the assumption that only the energy expended while doing the 'hard thinking task' counts
04:22 < fenn> but really you would be thinking about it subconsciously at other times as well
04:22 < fenn> and you have to replenish neurotransmitters and remove waste products etc
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13:07 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: Semi-intro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXKbzbeipmI http://diybio.org/ http://openwetware.org/ | diy bio tools: http://biohack.sf.net/ | Automated societal knowledge (put it to work): http://heybryan.org/exp.html | Channel wiki: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ | F/OSS re: Kurzweil: http://heybryan.org/fernhout/
13:07 -!- Topic set by kanzur1 [] [Mon Aug 11 14:37:25 2008]
13:07 [Users #hplusroadmap]
13:07 [ bkero ] [ faceface] [ kanzure_ ] [ Nade   ] [ Phreedom ] [ ybit] 
13:07 [ chizu ] [ fenn    ] [ kanzure_1] [ Nofaris] [ procto   ] 
13:07 [ elias`] [ freer   ] [ kanzure__] [ nsh    ] [ willPow3r] 
13:07 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 16 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 16 normal]
13:07 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008
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15:59  * kanzur1 is back
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16:23 < Blobfish> hey
16:23 -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-183-80.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
16:23 < gene> you there kanzure?
16:23 < kanzure> Yes
16:24 < kanzure> Hey Blobfish.
16:24 < kanzure> Hey gene.
16:24 < kanzure> I just got back. Sorry about all that.
16:24 < Blobfish> Hey, nice to meet you!
16:24 < gene> hey
16:24 < Blobfish> Gene has told me quite a bit about you
16:24 < gene> about the biohacking toolkit and stuff
16:24 < kanzure> Ah, good. You like?
16:24  * nsh would like to take this opportunity
16:24 < Blobfish> haha, of course
16:25 < Blobfish> it's pretty awesome stuff
16:25 < kanzure> nsh: Hm?
16:25 < gene> Blobfish is also working on a repstrap
16:25 < nsh> to advise all present, with great emphasis, to search pubmed for the author John Mattick
16:25 < Blobfish> yeah, cutting some aluminum right now
16:25 < nsh> and read at least every abstract on the first page of results
16:25 < nsh> before you get all learn'd up with wrongness
16:26 < gene> huh?
16:26 < gene> Kanzure
16:26 < kanzure> Yes?
16:26 < gene> I talked to that guy about the polymerase yesterday
16:26 < kanzure> nsh: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?term=John%20Mattick&search=Find%20Articles&db=pmc&cmd=search
16:27 < kanzure> gene: Oh?
16:27 < kanzure> Blobfish: Do you know about closure engineering?
16:27 < nsh> this at a minimum: http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/full/210/9/1526
16:27 < gene> he doesn't think it's possible to do that sort of thing 
16:27 < gene> for now
16:28 < nsh> kanzure: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?term=John%20Mattick&search=Find%20Articles&db=Pubmed&cmd=search
16:28 < gene> mainly because we really have  much of an idea of how proteins fold
16:28 < nsh> (pmc is unfortunately still rather exclusive)
16:28 < Blobfish> fascinating
16:28 < gene> and not much in the way of computational power to simulate them
16:28 < kanzure> gene: We don't need to know how proteins fold. We just evolve the mutated polymerases to our liking.
16:29 < gene> how?
16:29 < nsh> kanzure, you mean brute force?
16:29 < kanzure> nsh: No, hold on.
16:29 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/diagrams/retarded_polymerase.png
16:29 < gene> how do you measure the fitness of a polymerase like that?
16:30 < nsh> although
16:30 < gene> it's easy to measure the fittness of things like antibodies
16:30  * nsh ponders
16:30 < nsh> kanzure, 404 on that png
16:30 < kanzure> wtf
16:30 < kanzure> Is the server working at all?
16:31 < nsh> wait, no server
16:31 < gene> you just stick something covered in antigens in and see what sticks
16:31 < gene> so what is the deal about mattick
16:31 < kanzure> gene: You measure it by the length of the resultant strands and their relative brightness given some sort of fluorescent tag for certain nucleotides.
16:32 < kanzure> nsh: I did apache2 -k restart and I'm getting nothing. Any ideas?
16:32 < Blobfish> kazure: do you host your own server?
16:32 < nsh> kanzure, server IP?
16:34 < kanzure> Blobfish: Yes.
16:34 < nsh> traceroute loses you the server at apogeenet.net
16:34 < Blobfish> rofl.  are you hosting it from your dormroom?
16:35 < gene> Blobfish you should see his setup
16:35 < kanzure> nsh: Ah, yes, the IP has, in fact changed.
16:35 < kanzure> Blobfish: Hell yeah.
16:35 < Blobfish> haha, way to violate the terms of service! /me applauds
16:35 < kanzure> Blobfish: My setup is even more of a violation of TOS.
16:36 < Blobfish> kanzure: are you using dyndns for your domain name?
16:36 < nsh> new IP is whutpls?
16:36 < kanzure> Nah. I should use something like it.
16:36 < kanzure> nsh: fixing
16:36 < kanzure> http://66.112.232.136/
16:36 < nsh> ty
16:37 < kanzure> Okay, heybryan.org and austinbrains.org should be working now.
16:37 < Blobfish> kanzure: heybryan.org works
16:38 < gene> btw
16:38 < gene> Kanzure, there's a programing contest today
16:40 < Blobfish> who here runs linux?
16:40 < Blobfish> or bsd?
16:41 < kanzure> gene: Where?
16:41 < kanzure> Blobfish: Linux for most of us.
16:41 < gene> Dang I forgot where
16:41 < gene> at about five
16:41 < gene> I think 
16:41 < nsh> ARGH VISTA: HATE
16:42 < nsh> won't let me save changes to hosts file
16:42 < nsh> fucking retarded OS
16:42 < Blobfish> linux here too
16:42 < gene> it is
16:42 < gene> And I am running it
16:42  * nsh only wishes
16:42 < gene> I need to switch to linux
16:43 < Blobfish> i dual boot...but I haven't been in Vista for about 4 months
16:43 < gene> cool
16:43  * nsh awaiting external to upgrade his laptop to "computer" status
16:44 < Blobfish> I'm on a tablet PC, every time i upgrade the kernel I have to recompile the kernel modules for the active digitizer
16:44 < gene> So how much computational power do we all have here?
16:44 < nsh> apparantly, we have supercomputers
16:44 < Blobfish> hmmm...2.1 ghz with turion 64 x2 on laptop...dunno about the integrated GPU
16:45 < Blobfish> then my desktop has probably about the same...except with an 8600 gpu with half a gig of memory
16:45 < gene> do we have enough computational power to simulate proteins
16:45 < gene> lots of proteins
16:45 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Computational_chemistry
16:45 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Computational_biology
16:45 < kanzure> See for yourself.
16:46 < Blobfish> we might have enough to simulate lots of spaghetti...
16:46 < nsh> yay
16:46 < nsh> stupid fucking vista
16:46 < nsh> that
16:46 < nsh> 's 5 minutes of my life i'll never get back
16:46 < Blobfish> lol
16:46 < Blobfish> nsh: what's stopping you from using linux?
16:47 < nsh> hdd full
16:47 < gene> no kidding on the spaghetti
16:47 < gene> that's basically what proteins are
16:47 < nsh> luggage handlers killed my external 
16:47 < Blobfish> nsh: TSA luggage handlers?
16:47 < nsh> no, ryanair
16:48  * nsh doesn't do failmerica :-)
16:48 < gene> luggage handlers also killed  the RepRap child
16:48 < gene> perhaps they have a thing against high technology?
16:48 < nsh> i suspect that might be the case
16:48 < nsh> or competancy
16:49 < nsh> which is the tastier -y version of competance
16:49 < Blobfish> anyone here from the NSA logging our conversation?
16:50 < nsh> this guy on reddit told me the government runs freenode. he seemed pretty legit ;-)
16:50 < Blobfish> lol
16:50 < nsh> the nsa is of course logging everything plaintext
16:51 < Blobfish> which country do you plan on moving to when this one becomes "too corrupt"?
16:51  * nsh smiles
16:51 < gene> Space
16:51 < gene> The Moon
16:52 < gene> Europa might be nice too
16:52 < Blobfish> pangea...anyone?
16:52 < nsh> kanzure, my brain is dead from science overload, can you summarise this retarded polymerase idea in one or two pithy sentences pls
16:52 < nsh> i don't think we're allowed to make landings on europa
16:52 < nsh> i have a distinct memory of an exhortation to that effect
16:52 < kanzure> nsh: Laser-control of polymerase.
16:52 < nsh> controlling what?
16:53 < kanzure> Writes.
16:53 < nsh> start/stop?
16:53 < kanzure> And what to write.
16:53 < nsh> oh
16:53 < gene> why laser control?
16:53 < nsh> yaypipedreams :-)
16:53 < gene> why not LEDs
16:53 < kanzure> I have no special attachment to lasers.
16:53 < kanzure> LEDs would be great if they work.
16:54 < gene> cool
16:54 < gene> I think our best option for DNA synthesis might be that maskless lithography method using a DMD chip
16:54 < Blobfish> what about control by a laser on a shark's head?
16:55 < gene> heh
16:55 < kanzure> gene: The idea was that the polymerase would be self-replicable.
16:55 < gene> lasers aren't particulary self replicable
16:55 < kanzure> Build a fire.
16:55 < Blobfish> People are.
16:55 < kanzure> Also, organic LEDs exist.
16:55 < gene> guess they do
16:56 < Blobfish> does anyone else consider life an STD?
16:56 < gene> but the maskless lithography method might be faster an easier to accomplish
16:56 < kanzure> gene: It doesn't accomplish the goals though.
16:57 < kanzure> The point is the self-replicable and DNA synthetic aspects of it. DNA synthesizers, the type that we can go get in a lab, can otherwise be built. If that's your goal, go do that.
16:57 < gene> we still need to bootstrap the process
16:58 < kanzure> Purchasing metals isn't going to lead to bootstrappedness :-p.
16:58  * kanzure gets started on his synthetic biology circuit creator thingy.
16:59 < kanzure> Hm. The machine is locking up.
16:59 < gene> anyway I have been thinking about building a lego universal constructor
16:59 < kanzure> How is it going to make its own legos?
16:59 < gene> it doesn't 
17:00 < gene> it assembles legos
17:00 < kanzure> Sigh.
17:00 < gene> this is phase A-B of the nasa self-replicating moon base study
17:00 < Blobfish> dang, i need more clamps
17:00 < kanzure> Not really.
17:00 < kanzure> This isn't the sort of thing you do ad-hoc.
17:01 < kanzure> In the study, Freitas clearly outlined closure engineering
17:01 < kanzure> which is, I dare say, not ad-hoc :)
17:01 < gene> phase A is build something that can build itself from it's own parts
17:01 < gene> phase B is have it build other things from parts
17:02 < kanzure> I don't think you understand, if you're not building the legos then you can't say it's constructing the legos.
17:02 < gene> phase C is have it build it's parts from raw materials
17:02 < gene> phase D is have it mine the raw materials
17:02 < gene> btw
17:02 < kanzure> That's a load of shit.
17:02 < kanzure> It's the same exact strategy that RepRap is using
17:02 < kanzure> And they don't do replication.
17:03 < Blobfish> Reprap can print shit now?
17:03 < gene> reprap can't assemble itself yet
17:03 < gene> it's not even on the scale
17:03 < kanzure> Yeah, but they like to lie about it. :-)
17:03 < kanzure> Like to the NY Times and so on.
17:04 < kanzure> Anyway, here's the thing: you're not going to be able to show that you have achieved self-replication from side-projects that aren't integrated with one another.
17:04 < gene> that's media overstatement
17:04 < kanzure> You've mentioned sandbots, claypit bots, lego bots, and all sorts of other constructors and assemblers, but none of them do the job.
17:04 < kanzure> No, that's them overstating i.
17:04 < kanzure> *it.
17:05 < gene> first off if you making a machine capable of assembling anything from parts
17:05 < kanzure> ?
17:05 < gene> it can assemble the machines necessary to make the parts
17:06 < gene> a machine made from nuts and bolts that can assemble itself
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17:06 < gene> the machines made from nuts and bolts that can make nuts and bolts
17:06 < kanzure> Have you been listening to fenn at all?
17:06  * kanzure is wondering if we've made any progress at all here
17:07 < kanzure> Also it's possible that I'm overcritical at the moment here.
17:07 < gene> yeah
17:07 < gene> the lego machine would demonstrate the assembly process
17:08 < gene> I am thinking of making a gantry crane made from legos that can assemble another working copy of itself from lego parts
17:09 < kanzure> But how do you show that you could integrate the fabricational complexity necessary to manufacture legos in the future?
17:09 < gene> this is a demonstrator
17:10 < gene> but kanzure
17:10 < gene> I have made a 3d printer out of legos
17:10 < gene> on the gantry crane thing
17:10 < gene> additional lego parts that don't exist in nature may have to be fabricated
17:11 < kanzure> I feel like I'm talking to a wall. Look: I am not disagreeing with you. Yes, you have indeed made a 3d printer out of legos and you indeed can make a 3D assembler out of legos, but you haven't shown me the evidence that randomly making up these designs necessiates the path towards a replicator. 
17:11 < kanzure> nsh or fenn, how the hell did I explain it to either of you ?
17:11 < kanzure> ybit?
17:12 < gene> well the other option is to use something besides legos
17:12  * Blobfish wishes he had a few more arms
17:13  * nsh too brainspazed to work out what is wanted of his memory
17:13 < nsh> ask me on monday or something
17:13 < nsh> no wait, wednesday
17:13 < nsh> still conference on monday
17:13 < gene> like actually making a replicating gantry from steel or machined parts
17:15 < kanzure> The materials don't matter.
17:16 < kanzure> The design matters. You don't have evidence that randomly assembling parts together will result in "closure". That's what I'm talking about, and that's why skdb exists.
17:18 < gene> if you can assemble anything you will get closure
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17:18 < gene> a robot arm assmbles a milling machine that can machine the robot arm's parts
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17:21 < gene> then you work on feeding the mill with metal ingots
17:23 < gene> it's all there in the Advanced Automation for Space Missions study
17:24 < gene> btw
17:24 < kanzure> ?
17:24 < gene> can you do machining with electron beams
17:24 < kanzure> Not sure.
17:25 < gene> I have another idea about replication
17:25 < gene> do you know what electron beam melting is?
17:26 < gene> if you don't look it up
17:26 < gene> the basic idea is that an electron beam is used to fuse metal powder together
17:27 < gene> you use an electron beam melting machine to make it's casing and most of it's parts
17:28 < gene> and parts for the electron beam assembler
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20:05 < ybit> oi kanzure
20:05 < ybit> oh
20:05 < ybit> n/m
20:05 < ybit> but hey to you anyway :)
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20:17 < ybit> you didn't explain that to me friend
20:17 < Blobfish> How did this room get its name?
20:18 < ybit> + there's much more to say
20:19 < ybit> kanzure named it
20:19 < ybit> not sure which came first, the wiki or irc channel
20:19 < Blobfish> kanzure:  how did you come up with the name?
20:20 < ybit> you do know what h+ is right?
20:21 < Blobfish> not exactly
20:21 < ybit> h+ = transhumanism
20:21 < Blobfish> ah, thanks
20:21 < ybit> np
20:21 < Blobfish> now it makes sense
20:21 < ybit> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap
20:22 < Blobfish> after 7 holes, I'll be finished with the y axis of my McWire RepStrap
20:29 < ybit> "[19:18] <ybit> + there's much more to say" should be 'not much more'
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21:17 < Nade> hmmn
21:17 < Nade> anyone read stephen wolframs book, a "new" kind of science?
21:25 < ybit> no, but i have read the wikipedia article on it atleast twice :)
21:40 < Nade> http://www.wolframscience.com/nksonline/toc.html
21:40 < Nade> you can read it all for free there
21:41 < Nade> but i'd suggest you skip to the interesting parts, he does go on a bit
21:41 < Nade> i just find it fascinating
21:41 < Nade> it's all so elegant
21:42 < Nade> the language of mathematics is an absurd lens in which to view the world, thinking in terms of computation makes much more sense
21:42 < Nade> anyway, lets just hope them at cern haven't got their equations wrong ;)
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21:49 < kanzure> Nade, many of us hear have heard of NKS and have "agents" within the NKS realm.
21:49 < kanzure> However, I haven't actually read the book.
21:49 < kanzure> Blobfish: The name came about because of that 'roadmap' which makes little sense in retrospect.
21:49 < kanzure> Also, because people keep on coming in here. That's a good reason to keep the channel methinks.
21:49 < kanzure> There was a mailing list from 2007, but I haven't found a suitable relayhost since I got to the dorm in July.
21:51 < Nade> well you can read it for free online
21:51 < Nade> although i warn you, it's pretty big
21:54 < kanzure> It's safe to say that I know what it's about without having actually read Stephen's book.
21:55 < kanzure> And I somehow surround myself with people who have read it, or at least rant about it, so I think I'm in the clear [for the time being].
21:57 < kanzure>  Sunday, September 7th between 7am and 10am. <--- my server will be down
21:58 < Nade> well you should at least look at the pictures 
21:58 < Nade> :p
22:00 < kanzure> Oh, I have.
22:00 < kanzure> I know what he's proposing too -- in general, a computational basis of reality, taken from the CA approach, if you read into it deeply enough.
22:11 < Nade> yep
22:11 < Nade> although I have to say I find the stuff about nature and diversity far more interesting..
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22:18 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MODOK 
22:18 < kanzure> "MODOK underwent an artificial mutagenic process and bioengineering, granting him a superhuman mental acumen, making him, in theory, capable of knowledge and comprehension beyond the human ability to understand. "
22:18 < kanzure> " .. He has developed machinery that allows him to turn himself into data and e-mail himself to anywhere on Earth."
22:18 < kanzure> Eww. MIME types.
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23:33 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/type_links.html Each section of links is separated by a link with 'pgroup' in the URL. What I'm doing is just waiting until I come to a link with the pgroup attr/var and then I set the current category type to that, until I hit something else like it, but maybe there's a cleaner way to do this. Bah.
23:46  * kanzure wonders how telling all of this is http://www.last.fm/user/kanzure