--- Day changed Fri Sep 12 2008
01:15 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/camera/aws/view.html <-- I feel old.
01:16 < kanzure> just got those photos from some very, very old friends
01:17 < bkero> Er
01:27 < bkero> kanzure: Have you ever used http://www.biosql.org/wiki/Main_Page ?
01:27 < bkero> Apparently some people set it up and populate it with the entire NCBI taxonomy set.
01:28 < kanzure> Yummy.
01:28 < kanzure> NCBI only releases their dataset to you if you fill out a few forms.
01:28 < kanzure> I guess I have somewhat legitimate reasons now, but it's still annoying.
01:29 < bkero> How about the entire GenBank or EMBL or Swissprot public
01:29 < kanzure> Swissprot?
01:29 < kanzure> EMBL?
01:29 < kanzure> But yes, I'd like to torrent GenBank.
01:29 < bkero> google is your friend :)
01:29 < bkero> http://www.embl.de/
01:29 < kanzure> http://expasy.org/sprot/
01:30 < kanzure> you know what, fuck this
01:30 < kanzure> I can spider genbank.
01:30 < bkero> lol
01:30 < bkero> How big do you think genbank is
01:30 < bkero> ?
01:30 < kanzure> Meh.
01:30 < kanzure> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Ftp/
01:31 < kanzure> Woah, this isn't bad.
01:31 < kanzure> ftp://bio-mirror.net/biomirror/genbank/
01:32 < kanzure> ftp://bio-mirror.jp.apan.net/pub/biomirror/genbank/  (Japan)
01:32 < kanzure>         ftp://bio-mirror.kr.apan.net/pub/biomirror/genbank/  (Korea)
01:32 < kanzure>         ftp://bio-mirror.sg.apan.net/biomirrors/genbank/     (Singapore)
01:32 < bkero> That's maybe 1TB?
01:33 < kanzure> How much of it is unique?
01:33 < kanzure> I can't quite tell the difference between the datasets there except the filename, which isn't helpful.
01:33 < bkero> Yea
01:33 < kanzure> ftp://ftp.ncbi.nih.gov/genbank/genomes/H_sapiens/
01:33 < kanzure> For instance,
01:33 < bkero> ftp://bio-mirror.net/biomirror/genbank/README.genbank
01:33 < kanzure> 94 MB, and then a 1 GB file
01:33 < kanzure> Yes, I read the readme.
01:33 < kanzure> foo
01:33 < bkero> JESUS
01:33 < bkero> The files in this directory comprise GenBank Release 167.0, in the
01:33 < bkero> GenBank flatfile format.
01:34 < kanzure> hs_phs0.fna.gz    Survey sequence (approx 0.5 - 1 x coverage)
01:34 < kanzure> hs_phs1.fna.gz    Unordered contigs (each >2kb)
01:34 < kanzure> hs_phs2.fna.gz    Ordered contigs (each >2kb)
01:34 < kanzure> hs_phs3.fna.gz    Finished sequence
01:34 < kanzure> Heh.
01:34 < bkero> Looks like GenBank is pulling in EMBL data
01:34 < kanzure> All of them are the whole release? Bah ..
01:35 < bkero> At least nucleotide bases can be 2-bit bit. :)
01:35 < kanzure> 20 minutes to get a gigabyte. Meh. I guess it's not life-or-death.
01:35 < kanzure> What type of down/up do you get at Intel?
01:36 < bkero> Intels connection is shit
01:36 < bkero> Although I have an I2 connection at oregonstate.
01:36 < bkero> Bouncing between 600 and 1.2MB
01:37 < kanzure> Bah.
01:37 < kanzure> But at least you have clusters.
01:37 < bkero> Heh
01:37 < kanzure> don't tell me that's not quite true either ..
01:38 < bkero> actually
01:38  * kanzure groans
01:38 < bkero> bio-mirror.net = magpie.bio.indiana.edu
01:38 < kanzure> right
01:38 < bkero> My friend runs the supercomputer on campus there.
01:38 < kanzure> How super is it?
01:38 < bkero> Mainframe super
01:38 < bkero> It's on the top 500 list
01:39 < bkero> http://www.top500.org/site/systems/876
01:41 < kanzure> Heh, they give the top500 in XML format on the site
01:41 < bkero> I can probably get him to send it to you. :P
01:41 < kanzure> the whole cluster?
01:41 < bkero> No, the data from the ftp
01:41 < kanzure> that's not quite as exciting
01:41 < bkero> lol
01:41 < bkero> You want a cluster?
01:41 < kanzure> unless he can get it to me in less than the 13 minutes remaining
01:41 < kanzure> Yes, especially an exponentially growing cluster if you would
01:41 < kanzure> maybe a supercluster
01:42 < bkero> I can get quad cores with 4gb of ram for less than $500 a node
01:43 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/clusters.html
01:43 < kanzure> now that /me thinks about it I should have kept the superclusters
01:43 < bkero> Strike that, $400 per node
01:44 < kanzure> node != just the microprocessor ?
01:44 < bkero> No
01:44 < kanzure> Then why mention the ram?
01:44 < bkero> Node = one commodity "computer"
01:44 < kanzure> != means "not equal"
01:44 < kanzure> anyway
01:44 < kanzure> Awesome.
01:44 < kanzure> I wish you would have mentioned that a few months ago.
01:44 < bkero> Aww, did you ahve an opportunity?
01:45 < kanzure> No, I wasted a large chunk of cash on a new box.
01:45 < bkero> Yea.  These boxes have onboard video, and no hard drives...
01:45 < kanzure> just a little over double ..
01:45 < kanzure> oh
01:45 < kanzure> Well then. Nevermind.
01:45 < bkero> Wow, damn, I hope you got something good.
01:46 < bkero> $550 would get you good video and a 500gb
01:46 < kanzure> 2 TB, four video cards, eight monitors, quadcore, 4 GB ram, ..
01:46 < bkero> what
01:46 < kanzure> ?
01:46 < bkero> Is that what you got?
01:46 < kanzure> yes
01:47 < bkero> Absurd
01:47 < kanzure> Overpriced?
01:47 < bkero> 8 monitors?
01:47 < kanzure> Heh.
01:47 < kanzure> CRTs.
01:47 < bkero> oh
01:47 < kanzure> So it was cheap.
01:47 < bkero> God
01:47 < bkero> SO MUCH POWER DRAW
01:47 < bkero> and SO MUCH EYE CANCER
01:47 < kanzure> CANCER
01:47  * kanzure has to boot up with a radiation suit
01:48 < bkero> Buy one of these
01:48 < bkero> and tell me how much it draws
01:48 < bkero> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882715001
01:48 < bkero> dinner time, spicy curry!
02:02 < kanzure> what do I do with an fna file?
02:02 < kanzure> 'FASTA file format, nucleic acid sequences'
02:03 < kanzure> looks like I might be able to split it up if I wanted to but why wasn't it in the first place?
02:04 < kanzure> each entry in the fna file looks like http://earth.lab.nig.ac.jp/~dclust/cgi-bin/barley_pub/blast_viewer/showflatdata.cgi?CLNID=5005&CLNLIBID=54&DBID=1
02:04 < kanzure> specially the portions separted by the hr elements on the page
02:08 -!- Nade is now known as Nade|sleep
09:50 < kanzure> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=9591
09:50 < kanzure> Joseph Jackson is a Harvard guy?
09:50 < kanzure> who is this fellow ..
09:53 < kanzure> http://cosmeng.org/index.php/Project_Mindfile
09:54 < kanzure> what the fuck is a 'beme'
10:02 < kanzure> will anybody get upset if I start claiming mind uploading (in the "soul" sense of "mind") to be impossible?
10:09 < marainein> not me
10:10 < kanzure> you guys can't even keep yourselves the same from one moment to the next; how do you expect to do so with mind uploading?
10:10 < kanzure> as if there's some secret sauce to identity?
10:10 < kanzure> "mind uploading" is misnamed
10:10 < kanzure> let's call it "brain rearchitecting" ?
10:10 < marainein> i actually wanted to ask you, back when you were talking about consciousness, if you were offered the chance to have your brain frozen and and destroyed in the process of making a hi fidelity digital copy, would you take it?
10:11 < kanzure> if I'm at the end of my life & my other projects have failed, yeah sure
10:11  * kanzure would have to consider the various things
10:11 < marainein> and if you're not?
10:12 < kanzure> sorry?
10:12 < kanzure> what?
10:13 < marainein> would you take the offer now or in the near future? while you're still healthy and able to continue as a biological organism?
10:13 < kanzure> No.
10:13  * kanzure has his own plans for such things
10:13 < marainein> what did you have in mind?
10:14 < kanzure> btw, for the record, I'm not interested in one-to-one "copies" of the mind - I just want to try out brain building and seeing what I can get
10:14 < kanzure> not even twins are all that similar, you see :)
10:14 < kanzure> in feasible terms this goes back to the notes on artificial wombs, dna synthesizers and other various projects to try to "enclose the supply chain" 
10:15 < kanzure> "supply chain" of myself, if that makes any sense
10:16 < marainein> what's your objection to the biological brain destroyed and turned into a digital copy btw?
10:16  * kanzure hasn't investigated the mechanism, source code or anything else
10:16 < kanzure> that's my objection.
10:16 < kanzure> also,
10:16 < kanzure> it's a stubborness issue
10:16 < kanzure> I'd much rather do it on my own
10:17 < marainein> *nods*
11:44 < fenn> obvious objection is that you die, silly wabbit
11:44 < fenn> i'll be highly offended if anyone goes around claiming some particular technical challenge is impossible
11:45 < fenn> "Bemes are fundamental, transmissible, mutate-able units of beingness" whatever that means
11:50  * fenn chucks it in the "stupid word" group along with "spime"
11:52 < kanzure> spime?
11:53 < fenn> recyclable digital device thingy
11:53 < kanzure> huh
12:00 < kanzure> the differences between a bio lab and an engineering lab are interesting
12:00 < kanzure> the engineering lab has more comfortable chairs
12:00 < kanzure> and more windows boxen
12:03 < fenn> do biologists still exclusively use macintosh?
12:03 < kanzure> actually no :)
12:04 < kanzure> oddly enough it was the computery guys in the bio lab that were using mac
12:04 < fenn> well that sorta figures
12:04 < fenn> it takes a little bit of initiative to pick something besides the default
12:32 < kanzure> majority of laptops as seen from the back of the 400+ occupancy lecture halls, are mostly mac
12:33 < fenn> in what class?
12:33 < kanzure> chemistry 101 "inches to moles"
12:33 < kanzure> 301, really, but whatever
12:33 < fenn> huh.
12:33 < kanzure> some guy in the audience had a giant slackware sticker on the back of his screen, so I was happy to see at least 1/400
12:34 < kanzure> the actual count is 280~ because we do realtime quizzes with an active count of the number of people who have answered via iclicker.com
12:34 < kanzure> me needs to run off to lern me sum wordz
16:13 < kanzure> so I think I have a simple idea for a wearable
16:13 < kanzure> why not just use one of the swivol-thingys found on desks mounted to a backpack, then mount a small table top on it, then mount a keyboard ? Then you can use a draw string with your elbow or something to have it deploy and lock in front of you while you walk.
16:14 < kanzure> http://lockler.com/
16:14 < kanzure> hrm, wrong site
16:14 < kanzure> *swivel
16:14 < kanzure> ah, 'locking swivol'
16:15 < kanzure> http://www.hangler.com/
16:16 < kanzure> http://www.thomasnet.com/products/swivels-82070202-1.html
16:25 < kanzure> http://www.dannychoo.com/detail/mac/eng/image/1744/Keyboard+Trousers.html
16:31 < fenn> i dont know what you mean, i'm picturing something like this: http://www.boingboing.net/2003/07/09/free-robot-art-in-ny.html
16:31 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/diagrams/kb.png
16:31 < kanzure> fenn: well, yeah, that would of course be great
16:31 < kanzure> looks a little complicated for a quick hack though
16:32 < fenn> the simple reason is that you would bump into stuff
16:32 < kanzure> ?
16:32 < fenn> the other reason is you have this big heavy thing with a large moment of inertia hanging off your shoulder all day
16:32 < kanzure> reason for what
16:32 < fenn> the reason why it won't work, stupid :)
16:33 < fenn> "why not blah blah blah blah... ?"
16:33 < kanzure> I don't care about bumping into stuff really, I do that anyway (not really, but I could get used to it - minor concern)
16:33 < kanzure> and I can't imagine it weighing more than my 20 or 30 pound backpacks anyway
16:34 < kanzure> how much could a metal swivol weigh  ? surely only 5 or 10 pounds at most
16:34 < fenn> and your arm would get tired i think
16:34 < fenn> holding it out vertical like that
16:35 < kanzure> couldn't it rest on it?
16:35 < kanzure> http://www.halfkeyboard.com/products/whkbinfo.html <-- half keyboard .. kind of like my "mount it under the forearm" idea
16:35 < fenn> better to have it at pocket level, rotated forward 90 degrees
16:35 < kanzure> http://www.embedds.com/one-hand-wearable-keyboard-with-usb-interface/
16:35 < kanzure> pocket level, forward 90 degrees
16:35 < kanzure> hrm
16:35 < fenn> those are for people who have to look at their fingers while typing
16:36 < kanzure> oh, the half kb at pocket level you mean
16:36 < fenn> right, belted onto your thigh or waist
16:37 < fenn> why isn't this obvious? what are people thinking!
16:37 < kanzure> hm?
16:37 < fenn> arm-mounted keyboards, really, come on
16:37 < fenn> they saw it on that movie 'abyss' and were like .. "dude i need to get me a deep sea diving suit, but i'll settle for a wrist keyboard"
16:38 < fenn> for $300!!
16:39 < kanzure> it's kind of hard to test a kb at waist level because of gravity
16:39 < kanzure> hrm
16:39 < kanzure> mounting isn't quite obvious to me either
16:39 < kanzure> har har har
16:39 < fenn> ok take a keyboard, saw it in half
16:39 < kanzure> why
16:40 < fenn> now strap one half to your left thigh, one half to your right thigh
16:40 < kanzure> oh
16:40 < kanzure> at the sides.
16:40 < fenn> yes, so you dont look like you're masturbating
16:40 < fenn> but more practically because that's the way your arms hang at rest
16:41 < kanzure> the small number pads that are "sawed off" and used by people that ring up how many kids you owe them are of the right size
16:42 < kanzure> oh, you know, if you just drill a few holes through the plastic
16:42 < kanzure> on a full kb
16:42 < kanzure> and run some chains through it
16:42 < fenn> aroo?
16:42 < kanzure> the holes going across the bottom where your palms would rest if the plastic was extended that far
16:42 < kanzure> and then hook the chains into your belt buckles or something
16:42 < fenn> so you just have a kb hanging from your belt?
16:43 < kanzure> esc is on the left, numpad on the right
16:43 < kanzure> yeah
16:43 < kanzure> utility belt
16:43 < kanzure> my utility belt includes ssh, what about you?
16:43 < fenn> could work, seems like it would be uncomfortable
16:44 < fenn> if you did it wrong it would bounce around a lot, and you have to squeeze your wrists in at a weird angle
16:44 < fenn> gives me carpal tunnel just thinking about it :)
16:44 < kanzure> go find a metal ring, go get your drill and try it
16:45  * kanzure wonders why he doesn't have a drill
16:45 < fenn> metal ring?
16:45 < kanzure> well, unless you have chain or rope or something
16:45 < kanzure> like a key chain thingy
16:46 < fenn> if you ever want to saw a kb in half, i think it would work ok if you sawed two in half (keeping the flex-circuit-board intact) and plugged both in
16:47 < fenn> otherwise you have to connect all the wires together, which might not work so well on that flex membrane switch stuff
16:48 < fenn> of course ideally you'd do some sort of chording keyboard so you could type the whole alphabet+symbols with one hand
16:49 < kanzure> my experiences with chording have not made me happy
16:49 < fenn> yeah, figures
16:49 < fenn> could switch between modes
16:49 < kanzure> http://www.billbuxton.com/matias93.html 60 wpm on half kb study
16:50 < kanzure> http://store.ergoguys.com/mathk.html
16:50 < kanzure> why do these cost so much
16:50 < kanzure> the pcb isn't complex ..
16:50 < kanzure> the keys are pre-manufactured
16:50 < fenn> oooo wow "hunt-and-peck typing speeds were surpassed after 3-4 hours of practice" </snark>
16:51 < fenn> really there should be some free AVR/PIC projects out there
16:51 < fenn> its just some switches and serial protocol
16:51 < kanzure> right
16:52 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/projects/keymemproj/
16:52 < fenn> half keyboard is missing a lot of shit
16:52 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/projects/keymemproj/project.html had some notes on the protocol
16:52 < fenn> like, how am i supposed to switch between screen sessions with only alphanumeric
16:52 < fenn> hmm ok bad example
16:53 < fenn> i wonder why they did the secondary letters backwards from normal qwerty
16:54 < fenn> poiuy instead of yuiop
16:54 < kanzure> weird mental cross-reference thing?
16:54 < kanzure> that doens't make sense I guess.
16:54 < kanzure> *doesn't
16:54 < kanzure> http://forum.tabletpcreview.com/showthread.php?t=9497 diy split keyboard
16:55 < kanzure> 'I thought of an idea of having a keyboard split down the middle and placing one half of the keyboard on each side' (of his tablet)
16:55 < kanzure> not bad :)
16:55 < kanzure> especially if the screen would be able to tilt ..
16:55 < kanzure> independently of the kb ..
16:57 < kanzure> hah
16:57 < kanzure> he's online, cool
16:57 < fenn> except there's not really any information there..
16:58 < kanzure> he couldn't do it apparently
16:59 < fenn> wah, so what
16:59 < fenn> more crap, love the door stops: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/anderkoo/2007/05/02/product-review-kinesis-freestyle/
17:00 < fenn> i'd like two of those with a half-keyboard mode key, so you could type with one hand (in qwerty)
17:00 < fenn> something like, rock your palm to the right for right side, rock to left for left side
17:01 < kanzure> 'Designer Erik De Nijs, has stitched together this eye catching pair of "Beauty and the Geek" jeans. These "modern shaped trousers which are often worn by youngsters.." are the perfect solution for Googling quick exits while running from the fashion police. '
17:01 < kanzure> wait, they weren't real kb jeans
17:02 < fenn> its not like it would be hard to make them that way, get a roll up silicone keyboard and glue it to some sweatpants
17:02 < fenn> but it's a bad design for what should be obvious reasons
17:02 < kanzure> right right
17:03 < kanzure> $139 plus shipping for the 20 inch separation between the two parts on that Kinesis Freestyle thing
17:03 < kanzure> $80 for the 6 inches
17:04 < fenn> i think it is a real silicone keyboard on the trousers, note the huge pointless grey square on the right
17:05 < kanzure> http://thecraftstudio.com/bcboy/keyboard.html 
17:06 < fenn> there are folding bluetooth kb's for palm pilot accessory, seems about right
17:06 < kanzure> cool, he's doing split kb 
17:06 < kanzure> on that last link
17:10 < kanzure> heh, he's an rpm user
17:10 < kanzure> with the half kb you could mount to the jean loops still
17:14 < kanzure> bkero: Know of the Microarchitecture Research Laboratory and Loh?
17:14 < kanzure> http://justfortheloveofit.org/
17:14 < kanzure> http://mjam.at/
17:23 < fenn> freeconomy sorta reminds me of www.n55.dk
17:23 < fenn> except they dont really invent anything
17:58 < bkero> I don't
17:59 < bkero> fenn: Try looking into a whuffie economy. :)
18:05 < fenn> bkero: i've looked into it, the problem seems to be all the little details like how you actually calculate the damn thing
18:06 < bkero> and the fact that your worth as a human being is based on popular opinion.
18:06 < fenn> suits me
18:06 < bkero> and as we all know, pop stars aren't worth their weight in shit.
18:06 < fenn> your opinion will be weighted appropriately
18:06 < fenn> i think it would be interesting to see real democracy for once
18:07 < bkero> Yea.  A couple people who would be bothered to despise them would drown out in middle school girls
18:07 < bkero> The greeks had real democracy.
18:07 < bkero> They all got together and argued.
18:07 < bkero> And got drunk
18:07 < fenn> see, that's the problem, it takes more effort to bump someone's whuffie than they're worth to you in the first place
18:07 < bkero> And nothing was ever accomplished. ;)
18:07 < fenn> woot!
18:08 < fenn> these folding kb's are really cheap
18:08 < fenn> http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00008W81P/ref=dp_olp_2
18:09 < fenn> i wonder if i should spend the extra $5 for new-new vs like-new
18:09 < bkero> Ew?  IR?
18:10 < fenn> will probably have to hardware hack it anyway, IR is easy to interface with (better than bluetooth at least)
18:10 < bkero> Er, I like bluetooth much better
18:10 < fenn> most other kb's have some funky molded connector
18:11 < bkero> Once you associate it's just a serial connection
18:11 < bkero> Plus my laptop and phone have bluetooth, not IR
18:11 < bkero> I fucking hate how even new wireless mice don't use bluetooth.  They just use proprietary crap.
18:11 < fenn> can you get bluetooth mice?
18:11 < bkero> yes
18:11 < bkero> You can get a couple
18:11 < fenn> i remember reading somewhere that bluetooth chips were expensive
18:11 < bkero> and they're pretty expensive
18:11 < bkero> No dude, bluetooth was DESIGNED to be cheap
18:12 < bkero> It was designed to add $8 to the total cost
18:12 < fenn> why is blutooth-* expensive then?
18:12 < bkero> Because assholes in the industry say OMG NEW HOTNESS +$8923748923748923
18:12 < fenn> hmm.. what's so good about bluetooth anyway?
18:12 < bkero> It's standard
18:12 < fenn> vs say zigbee
18:12 < bkero> and included in any good laptop
18:12 < fenn> where's my software radio! wah
18:13 < bkero> You don't have to have some stupid dongle sticking out of your computer
18:13 < fenn> you know, they really ought to make little usb cubby-holes
18:13 < fenn> a little pocket in the laptop you put the usb device in
18:13 < fenn> or wires, so they dont just snap off
18:14 < bkero> I'd rather not.  USB has some pretty bad issues when it comes to power saving.  And nobody makes a hardened USB bus. :/  I can always get them to crash.
18:14 < fenn> same for audio jacks
18:14 < bkero> My fileserver has 8 hard drives in it attached via usb, and I've tried 2 different usb chipsets, both shit themselves under heavy load.
18:14 < fenn> well, you wont find me championing usb :\
18:14 < bkero> I like firewire for hard drives, bluetooth for input devices
18:15 < fenn> i like power over ethernet
18:15 < fenn> but nobody makes anything for it
18:15 < bkero> Until you plug a PoE cable into a regular ethernet port :P
18:16 < fenn> no, it's electrically isolated
18:16 < fenn> worst that would happen is it not power on
18:16 < bkero> Erm
18:16 < bkero> PoE involves moving a significant electric current through an ethernet cable?
18:16 < fenn> i guess, fsov significant
18:16 < bkero> Enough to power a devices
18:17 < fenn> yes
18:17 < bkero> Several watts
18:17 < bkero> I'm wondering how that wouldn't blow a north bridge/ethernet chipset if plugged into a regular ethernet port.
18:17 < fenn> because there are little tiny transformers that isolate the ethernet line
18:17 < fenn> its like 1000V isolation standard
18:18 < bkero> So you're saying there's current dampening on the regular ethernet's PCB side?
18:18 < fenn> i dont know what 'current dampening' is supposed to mean, but it's an isolation transformer
18:20 < bkero> What does it isolate it from?
18:20 < fenn> it isolates the voltage in the two circuits
18:20 < bkero> But it's the massive current you're worrieda bout.
18:21 < fenn> non-POE jack wouldn't be drawing any current
18:21 < fenn> and anyway it goes over unused wires that probably arent even connected
18:21 < bkero> regular ethernet jacks carry 3v at 1mw.  PoE jacks carry typically 5-12v at 5-10 watts
18:22 < fenn> do you know what an isolation transformer is?
18:22 < bkero> Yes
18:22 < fenn> the "3v" is AC
18:22 < fenn> PoE is DC
18:23 < bkero> Right
18:23 < bkero> But isolation transformers have specifications
18:23 < bkero> Such as ratings
18:23 < bkero> and if those input ratings are exceeded, functionality is questionable.
18:23 < fenn> yes like isolation voltage, which i mentioned was 1000V or so, seems kinda hard to compare 12V to 1000V
18:24 < fenn> but i dont think the power wires are even used in a normal ethernet jack
18:24 < bkero> Depends on what bitrate they are
18:24 < bkero> Full duplex gigabit will use 8
18:26 < bkero> Found some isolation transformer datasheets used in ethernet chipsets.  Their rating is 3 watst.
18:26 < fenn> aha there are two different modes, "A" and "B"
18:27 < fenn> in "A" the power goes over the normal data lines (pins 1234) and in B they use the "spares" (5678)
18:28 < fenn> er... actually B is 4578 (wtf)
18:28 < bkero> yea
18:28 < bkero> Don't want the two polarities right next to each other
18:28 < bkero> Otherwise you get weird SNR issues, magnetic bleeding, and RF noise
18:28 < fenn> i dont see why it matters since it's DC
18:29 < bkero> Just because it's DC doesn't mean it's clean power
18:29 < fenn> unless you have some hacky noisy DC-DC converter in there
18:29 < bkero> You mean like most wall warts?
18:29 < fenn> right
18:29 < fenn> i dont see how it would make sense to send noisy DC power down a data line
18:30 < bkero> It doesn't, that's why the parts are split.
18:30 < bkero> *polarities are split
18:33 < fenn> you shouldnt be using a cheap wall wart with POE because there's only one power source
18:33 < fenn> so you dont need lke 50 different power supplies
18:33 < bkero> You sure your PoE isn't using a cheap wall wart in a fancy box?
18:34 < fenn> if cheap == don't work then yes
18:34 < bkero> Cheap will work
18:34 < fenn> you can easily tell though by lost/garbled packets
18:34 < bkero> But it also has a myriad of problems, that usually aren't immediately recognisable.
18:34 < bkero> For instance, is the power supply regulated?
18:35 < bkero> If not then voltage spikes on the supply side can get fed through into your PoE devices, and some might not have the hardware to handle that.
18:35 < fenn> they can get fed through anyway
18:35 < bkero> Yes, but with a good power supply it'll do a much better job at preventing it
18:35 < fenn> right, that's it's job
18:36 < fenn> look, if your cheap wall wart kills the POE device, then that's the device maker's problem
18:36 < bkero> Most cheap power supplies aren't regulated however, so if you're using one on hardware that's expecting clean regulated power, bad things can happen if you get some vdroop or a vspike.
18:38  * bkero should test the ethernet on his computer to see exactly how many watts the isolation transformer can take before it pops.
18:40 < fenn> bah just hook it straight to the mains
18:40 < fenn> btw there is a handshaking protocol before any power is delivered
18:41 < bkero> I thought there would be
19:09 < kanzure> 'More than 90,000 attendees from 119 countries have assembled in Chicago to be privy to pretty much every type of manufacturing machines and technology being used on today's shop floor. Here are some highlights.' http://enews.thomasnet.com/ct.jsp?uz3763235Biz7266198 rosetta stone of interoperability
19:09 < kanzure> wonder if they're just yanking my chain
19:10 < kanzure> also, how the hell does Chicago support 90,000 hotel rooms
19:10 < kanzure> that's rather impressive ..
19:10 < kanzure> 'In a demo here this week, at the MAG Industrial Automation Systems booth, Next Engine has displayed technology that could open up reverse-engineering technology to a much wider user base: a low-cost reverse-engineering system that includes a 3-D scanner and some sophisticated software. The company used its system to reverse-engineer a Ferrari (OK, so it was really a toy model). The cost is 1/10 that of competing systems.'
19:10 < kanzure> so was it reverse engineered or not
19:11 < kanzure> I'm confused
19:11 < kanzure> 'But it's a new open-source communication protocol standard called MTConnect that really has a pervasive presence at IMTS.'
19:11 < kanzure> http://www.mtconnect.org/
19:11 < kanzure> '
19:11 < kanzure> Basically, MTConnect serves as "middleware" between the machine controller and higher-level applications. It provides a means to describe, for instance, actual and command positions of a machine tool's axes of motion as well as pretty much any data a sensor can capture. And, it offers basic alarms and notification functionality. Using XML-based descriptions of various machine functions (e.g., spindle time, machine tool temperature, power status, etc.)
19:12 < kanzure> 'According to the exhibit, manufacturers spend $90 billion a year on interoperability issues. Many large users of machine tools already have proprietary solutions to their data-connectivity problems, but the MTConnect approach could open up new doors for small companies and university researchers.'
19:12 < kanzure> $90 billion
19:12 < kanzure> solved by an XML schema
19:12 < kanzure> wtf
19:12 < kanzure> well, not quite 'solved'
19:12 < kanzure> but with 90,000 people hearing about it or something
19:13 < kanzure> who the hell releases a white paper in a doc file
19:13 < kanzure> http://mtconnect.org/media/MTConnectWhitePaper.doc
19:13 < bkero> kanzure: There were 80,000 people at PAX this year :)
19:13 < kanzure> and then calls it open source?
19:13 < kanzure> PAX?
19:14 < bkero> Penny Arcade Expo
19:14 < bkero> A bunch of dribbling teenagers
19:14 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/user/MTConnect
19:14 < kanzure> Hah.
19:14 < kanzure> Awesome.
19:14 < kanzure> no mtconnect mention on Wikipedia
19:14 < kanzure> *cough*
19:15 < kanzure> Software Architecture for CAM Tools to Enable a Flexible Digital Factory http://mtconnect.org/media/architecture.pdf
19:15 < bkero> Add it yourself?
19:15 < kanzure> bkero: I'm investigating first :)
19:22 < kanzure> .net sdk for mtconnect devel 
19:22 < kanzure> http://mtconnect.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=122&Itemid=50
19:22 < kanzure> yeah, that's *real* open
19:25 < kanzure> ok
19:25 < kanzure> so what they're doing is having an 'agent' architecture where agents query the local address space for components
19:25 < kanzure> and then they check to see what they know about those types of agents
19:26 < kanzure> and then they have agent-to-device adapters and such
19:28 < kanzure> yuck, they're using Windows + windows shares on a manufacturing floor
19:28 < kanzure> plus HTTP queries between devices
19:30 < kanzure> where's our gnu overlords when we need them ..
19:46 < bkero> kanzure: lets do some manufaxturing process reform!
19:47 < kanzure> bkero: How do you expect to do this without a factory? :p
19:48 < bkero> kanzure: a factory in china is about $0.50 a day
19:48 < kanzure> what does that money buy me?
19:49 < bkero> 200000 laborers and 3 retoolings
19:52 < kanzure> hrm
20:28 < kanzure>                   1st International Conference on               Bioinformatics and Computational Biology              April 8-10, 2009, New Orleans, Louisiana USA https://secure.myhostadvantage.com/V0015065FC/con-reg/default.asp?ConID=85
20:29 < kanzure> Hey boogles.
20:30 < boogles> Hey there.
20:30 < kanzure> Note that chizu is probably your coworker.
20:30 < kanzure> *coworker too.
20:30 < boogles> Heh, I don't currently have any coworkers. :P
20:30 < kanzure> OSUOL.
20:30 < boogles> But yeah, I know chizu 
20:30 < boogles> Yeah.
20:30 < kanzure> What's with Ohio State and #hplusroadmap :-)
20:31 < boogles> You mean oregon state?
20:31 < kanzure> boogles: At the moment I'm writing some emails to the openmanufacturing group, and might get back in a bit. Until then, check the wiki in the /topic.
20:31 < kanzure> Oops. Yes.
20:37 < boogles> Cool, I'll check that out later.
20:38 < boogles> Thanks for the info. :)
20:45 < kanzure> Hey marcel2.
20:45 < kanzure> boogles: We do stuff in here like automated manufacturing/design, brain implants, bioreactors, and lots of complaining.
21:10 < marcel2> hello
21:10 < marcel2> roadmap to what?
21:14 < kanzure> http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/2008/09/sort/time_rev/page/1/entry/2:253/20080912075604:CDF9D9A6-80C1-11DD-AF15-FB8BA6911C2E/ 'realistics'
21:15 < kanzure> marcel2: I was assembling technologies that were a roadmap for a transhuman to follow, i.e., what do I do next - specifically what research needs to be done to solve some important problem.
21:28 < marcel2> what is the next thing to do?
21:31 < kanzure> supply chain closure, might be the right way to say it
21:31 < kanzure> are you familiar with manufacturing?
21:31 < kanzure> I'm lagging because I just read the most terrible email all day .."Unfortunately we cannot define what output is useful above our own intelligence level. We have to rely on external tests by systems that are more complex than a single human brain. I know of two such systems. One is the economy, which measures intelligence in dollars. The other is evolution, which measures intelligence in number of descendants."
21:31 < kanzure> argh, wrong wrong wrong
21:32 < marcel2> sure?
21:32 < marcel2> sounds no tbad
21:33 < marcel2> but iam silly^^ so it maybe really wrong
21:33 < kanzure> Specifically what's wrong with it is that 'intelligence' is a folk psychology concept; it's not from systems neuroscience from the ground up, but rather from our guesses about the way that the brain works
21:34 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 14 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 14 normal]
21:34 < bkero> boogles: Your questions are best asked here :)
21:34 < bkero> boogles: feel like shaving your head? ;)
21:34 < kanzure> bkero found an excellent method of shampoo + pennies for electrodes.
21:35 < kanzure> By 'excellent' I mean I haven't tried it yet ;-)
21:35 < kanzure> Hey marainein
21:35 < bkero> So
21:35 < marainein> hi kanzure
21:35 < bkero> kanzure: interesting find
21:35 < marainein> what did you find?
21:35 < kanzure> bkero: 'Realistics' ?
21:35 < kanzure> bkero: See my response. It should be there now, refresh.
21:35 < kanzure> http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/2008/09/sort/time_rev/page/1/entry/2:253/20080912075604:CDF9D9A6-80C1-11DD-AF15-FB8BA6911C2E/
21:35 < bkero> My landlord's wive was pregnant, and has ultrasound gel sitting around.  Do you think that it would work for a conductor?
21:36 < kanzure> Ugh, what's the gel?
21:36 < bkero> Not sure yet
21:36 < marcel2> is this a pervers channel??
21:36 < kanzure> A what?
21:37 < bkero> Wikipedia just says it's a water-based gel.
21:37 < marcel2> nothing iam quiet now
21:37 < bkero> kanzure: i think he meant perverse
21:37 < bkero> marcel2: No, I'm using it for SCIENCE!
21:38 < kanzure> marcel2: Anyway, to answer your question - if you are interested in the next steps in becoming transhuman, basically it's looking like it requires the ability to create on your own - so this means the ability to manufacture, perhaps biologically ( http://biohack.sf.net/ ) or perhaps with heavy metal etc. http://heybryan.org/exp.html
21:39 < kanzure> re: "realistics" - I sent a response: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/2008/09/sort/time_rev/page/1/entry/2:256/20080912172325:FB0C08FC-8110-11DD-8F74-809794291AF4/
21:40 < marcel2> prototypeprinter fpr everybody
21:40 < marcel2> that would be raly cool yes
21:40 < kanzure> typos?
21:40 < marcel2> ?
21:40 < marcel2> what?
21:40 < kanzure> fpr?
21:40 < marcel2> for
21:40 < kanzure> oh, okay
21:41 < marcel2> realy
21:41 < kanzure> It's not just prototypers though :-)
21:44 -!- marcel2 is now known as marcel_sleep
22:06 < kanzure> http://socialsynergyweb.org/oardc
22:30 < bkero> lolsynergy
22:58 < kanzure> hrm
22:58 < kanzure> we need an 'archive bot' - to retrieve books from library holdings and turn to a certain page and scan over the page with a live web cam
22:58 < kanzure> or just a mounted mechanical arm on the ceiling with tracks
23:02 < kanzure> oh
23:03 < kanzure> apply palm to face
23:03 < kanzure> what the lab is doing over here for their own online repository (which I'm still trying to find the link to) is reverse engineering to figure out 'parts' that they don't have in their db
23:03 < kanzure> by knowing the inputs and outputs from simple investigations of the product to be reverse engineered
23:03 < kanzure> sort of. they're not focusing on that much.
23:13 < kanzure> Hi again marcel.
23:16 < kanzure> 'Capturing creativity: Using a design repository to drive concept innovation'
23:45 < fenn> realistics = reciprocality, but poorly stated
23:45 < fenn> industrial device manufacturers have a vested interest in poor interoperability, it's called "vendor lock-in"
23:45 < fenn> they'll sell you the computer for $50 but the connectors cost $150 etc
23:48 < kanzure> recpirocality.org specifically? yes
23:48 < fenn> i thought google was supposed to be doing the whole archive bot thing
23:48 < fenn> yes
23:48 < kanzure> no, google does it by hand
23:48 < kanzure> I've seen fingers in Google books
23:48 < kanzure> holding the pages open ..
23:48 < fenn> well, whatever.. but where's the DATA
23:48 < kanzure> hm?
23:49 < fenn> i mean i can't just look up whatever journal article or book
23:49 < fenn> have to pay $10-200 a pop
23:49 < kanzure> you're confusing me
23:49 < fenn> if they even offer, usually it's just "sorry you are not allowed"
23:50 < kanzure> right
23:51 < kanzure> I'm confused anyway at the moment
23:51 < kanzure> for some reason I was checking mail, a professor sent me some papers to read, so I read them
23:51 < kanzure> and now I'm left wondering what it was that I was doing
23:53 < fenn> wow that last paragraph was off the wall: "Anyway, it's context that matters when it comes to groundtruthing 
23:53 < fenn> citations and traces in information ecologies, and not so much the 
23:53 < fenn> symbolic manipulation thereof. It's the overall groundtruthed process, 
23:53 < fenn> the instantiated exploding von Neumann probe phylum that will 
23:53 < fenn> ultimately (not) grey goo you.
23:53 < kanzure> uhm, when I reread it
23:53 < kanzure> I realized that I dissed programs
23:53 < fenn> my markov chain bot could write that :)
23:53 < kanzure> with 'symbolic manipulation' 
23:53 < kanzure> guess my summary sucked because it was more of a generalization
23:54 < kanzure> but surely you understand the idea of "HEY look over there! it's reality ! go touch it! erm, not you. you stay put" etc.
23:55 < fenn> i think when he's talking about "realizing" it's not so much about following citations back to their original sources, but rather having gone through a sort of 'play' period where you interact with real systems and have an opportunity to build up/internalize a model of how it works
23:56 < kanzure> to play with them you have to chase them down the wabbit hole
23:56 < fenn> kids have no opportunity to 'play' with math
23:56 < kanzure> red pill / blue pill
23:56 < fenn> they can't even use a fucking calculator, the sickos
23:56 < kanzure> mathematica is a pretty good opportunity
23:56 < fenn> mathematica is a great opportunity
23:57 < fenn> i tried maxima and didnt like it
23:57 < kanzure> I tried matlab and didn't launch over the ssh tunnel
23:57 < kanzure> ssh -X
23:57 < fenn> does matlab run on linux?
23:57 < kanzure> the bootup logo worked though :p
23:57 < kanzure> maybe, I'm pretty sure I was working with a linux version
23:58 < fenn> lol "matlab is available on the following platforms: Linux, 7.6"
23:58 < kanzure> especially since I got their splash
23:58 < fenn> i guess that means redhat 7.6
23:58 < kanzure> weird
23:58 < kanzure> I wonder what uninformed person wrote that
23:58 < kanzure> surely not the webmaster?
23:59 < fenn> oh oops that's matlab version 7.6
23:59 < kanzure> uninformed person was you :(
23:59  * fenn boggles
23:59 < fenn> i thought it was up to 14