--- Day changed Thu Sep 25 2008
00:00 < kanzure> undergraduate research fellowship, believe it or not
00:00 < kanzure> $1k~ 
00:04 < fenn> i finally found an ebook of "the humane interface", so now i get to decide whether to read it or not
00:08 < fenn> raskin has some fun stuff on his website, like http://jef.raskincenter.org/unpublished/twestid_wrods.html and http://jef.raskincenter.org/published/i_before_e.html
00:12 < kanzure> what's good about the humane interface?
00:12 < kanzure> humane, not human?
00:15 < kanzure> oh, alsa force  reload yay
00:49 < biopunk> hi ybit... sorry for the latency
00:55 < ybit> np
00:56 < ybit> http://jef.raskincenter.org/unpublished/twestid_wrods.html
00:57 < ybit> oh, right
00:57 < ybit> heh, got the link from fenn
00:57 < ybit> good find
01:03 < ybit> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyetap
01:05 < ybit> "ePI Lab research strengths include wearable computing hardware and Open Source Mediated Reality software." http://www.eyetap.org/about_us/hilab/index.html
01:08 < ybit> http://www.eyetap.org/research/eyetap.html
01:08 < ybit> http://www.eyetap.org/research/wearables/wearhow/index.html
01:09 < ybit> ^ "In this paper, I provide instructions on how to build a hobbyist's wearable computer system that is modular, easy to re-configure and maintain, etc.. "
01:11 < kanzure> heh, me was browsing eyetap.org the other day
01:12 < kanzure> wearable TV sets? hah. I wouldn't have guessed.
01:13 < ybit> http://wearcam.org/pictures.html -- new one looks much slimmer
01:14 < kanzure> http://wearcam.org/ece1766/pnmpwadd/dusters/v52cropprocund.jpg <-- wtf
01:15 < ybit> heh
01:16 < ybit> example of slimmer design: http://wearcam.org/italian_design/bests/dsc560b.jpg
01:17 < kanzure> I wonder what those head mounts are
01:17 < kanzure> slimmer = costlier?
01:17 < kanzure> http://genesis.eecg.toronto.edu/head-mounted-displays.html
01:18 < ybit> heh, http://genesis.eecg.toronto.edu/steve_vr4.jpg
01:18 < ybit> what's with the antennas
01:20 < ybit> http://www.hitl.washington.edu/research/shared_space/ 
01:20 < ybit> http://www.hitl.washington.edu/artoolkit/
01:20 < kanzure> in the 90s you had HAM, not 8021941941g or whatever
01:20 < kanzure> 802.11g?
01:20 < kanzure> 801.11g?
01:21 < bkero> 802.11n is the new hotness
01:21 < bkero> In the 90s you had shortwave.
01:21 < bkero> You still have shortwave.
01:24 < kanzure> http://engwear.org/
01:24 < kanzure> erm, stupid link
01:24 < kanzure> nevermind, they've moved to handhelds
01:41 < kanzure> http://www.eyetap.org/wearable/hardwear.html
01:42 < kanzure> aha - monocular display: http://www.liteye.com/
01:50 < kanzure> http://www.eyetap.org/wearable/wear-hard-07/2007837.html http://jakeofalltrades.wordpress.com/2007/09/30/25-head-mounted-display/
01:54 < kanzure> Hm. The comments are still being posted to that 2007 post.
01:57 < kanzure> WPT70133 is about $90 to $130 depending on which page you find on the website.
01:57 < kanzure> http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2008-01-31.txt
01:58 < kanzure> http://hackaday.com/2007/10/07/25-head-mounted-display/ 
02:25 < fenn> sweet, now all it needs is a gripper arm and a shotgun and i can sample melted nuclear reactor cores
02:29 < kanzure> what's the shotgun for?
02:31 < fenn> shooting at the now solidified melted blob of uranium and assorted nastiness
02:31 < fenn> to break off pieces
02:31 < fenn> i saw it on the Nova chernobyl episode
02:34 < kanzure> I don't understand how they do those headmounts.
02:34 < kanzure> the screens are cheap to buy
02:34 < kanzure> that's fine, I can do that
02:34 < kanzure> but are they using some custom hinges or somethign?
02:34 < fenn> egad 152 comments, time to set up a forum
02:35 < fenn> kanzure: are you asking why they cost $thousands for some lcd screens and a bit of optics?
02:35 < kanzure> yep
02:35 < kanzure> no
02:35 < kanzure> I'm asking how to build the headmount aspect of it
02:35 < kanzure> the fact that it's an lcd and some wires shouldn't matter that much
02:35 < kanzure> what's so special? superpowered headband or something?
02:36 < kanzure> are they just gluing some extension to the back of the lcd?
02:36 < fenn> uh, wha? just get a safety visor or welding mask or something
02:36 < kanzure> that's kind of bulky
02:36 < kanzure> I'm looking at the monocular systems
02:36 < fenn> well how much do you expect the thing to weigh?
02:36 < kanzure> sacrifice one eye.
02:36 < kanzure> I don't care, I just want to sacrifice only one eye.
02:37 < fenn> i have a petzl black diamond headlamp which seems to be a good design head mount
02:37 < kanzure> http://en.petzl.com/petzl/LampesProduits?Produit=463
02:37 < fenn> anyway, flexible elastic like that has to have the weight balanced
02:38 < kanzure> upper left-hand corner
02:38 < kanzure> so just glue it from the front hanging down or something?
02:38 < kanzure> doesn't sound too elegant of a solution.
02:38 < fenn> but a rigid headband like on a welding mask can deal with off-balance
02:38 < fenn> glue is bad, forget you ever heard of it
02:38 < fenn> duct tape too
02:38 < kanzure> so, what's the solution?
02:38 < fenn> zip-ties are almost tolerable, sometimes
02:38 < kanzure> velcro?
02:39 < fenn> velcro is good, carpet tape is good for light weight
02:39 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_tie
02:39 < fenn> nuts and bolts are best
02:39 < kanzure> hm.
02:39 < kanzure> but on all of the other systems on eyetap.org and such,
02:39 < kanzure> there's always a bit of an extension in use
02:39 < kanzure> instead of it just hanging off of a headband
02:40 < fenn> wow i can get tefzel zip ties
02:40 < kanzure> good for fighting freiza, you se
02:40 < kanzure> *see
02:40 < kanzure> http://wearcam.org/ece1766/pnmpwadd/dusters/v52cropprocund.jpg <-- these.
02:42 < marainein> is something more discrete possible?
02:42 < kanzure> probably, but I'm not interested in discrete really
02:42 < fenn> wow i had no idea petzl made so many different headlamps
02:42 < fenn> marainein: discrete != discreet
02:42 < kanzure> I figure the monocular system is a better idea than not
02:42 < kanzure> oh crap
02:43 < kanzure> *discreet
02:43  * marainein refines his vocabulary
02:43 < fenn> why are they carrying ultra large flashlights?
02:43 < marainein> those are phasors
02:43 < kanzure> to appeal to miners?
02:52 < fenn> ok, in foreground is petzl headlamp, background is safety mask
02:52 < fenn> http://www.fennetic.net/pub/camera/DCP_0830.JPG
02:53 < kanzure> how far does the mask extend from actual face?
02:53 < fenn> 2-3 inches
02:53 < fenn> it's very comfortable
02:53 < kanzure> looks like the glass is on some pegs or something
02:53 < fenn> i only wear it for a few hours at a time max though
02:53 < fenn> yes the lens is removable
02:53 < fenn> or whatever you call it
02:53 < kanzure> easy to mount, say, an lcd?
02:54 < fenn> i think i'd make an arm from plastic
02:54 < fenn> and mount it on one of those knobs on the temples
02:55 < kanzure> a locking mechanism with the knobs?
02:55 < fenn> anyway the nice feature of that mask is the knob in the back, which adjusts the headband width (push in to turn, release to lock)
02:55 < kanzure> ah
02:55 < fenn> and they are $12 from harbor freight so its no big deal to chop up
02:56 < fenn>  Item 31192-2VGA $3.99 311923.99002ROB   
02:56 < fenn>  
02:56 < fenn> gah
02:57 < fenn> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=46526
02:57 < kanzure> I still don't understand the design of such an arm.
02:57 < fenn> more evidence that you are a disembodied AI
02:58 < fenn> take a quarter section of a cylinder about 1 inch tall and radius 6 inches
02:58 < fenn> stated other way: take a 1 by 6 rectangle of plastic, bend to 6 inch radius
02:59  * fenn knows pi should be in there somewhere meh
02:59 < kanzure> just a stupid cylinder?
02:59 < kanzure> how would that connect to the knob and i.e. not fall off?
02:59 < fenn> you drill a hole, the knob just has a nut in it which attaches to a nut molded into the headband ( i think)
03:00 < fenn> it goes where the flip up mask would, normally
03:00 < kanzure> right
03:00 < kanzure> btw, I take offense to that
03:00 < kanzure> I'm pretty sure I'm embodied
03:00  * kanzure pokes
03:01 < kanzure> okay, I guess I can see something now
03:01 < kanzure> what about the mount to the display?
03:01 < kanzure> besides the obvious answer of a plastic surface on which to mount velcro,
03:01 < kanzure> with velcro on the lcd as well.
03:01 < kanzure> is there a better plan?
03:04 < fenn> hm i must be a vampire, no mirrors.. will have to use webcam instead
03:06 < fenn> gawd xawtv sucks
03:17 < fenn> i give it the "dork-o-rama" award
03:17 < fenn> it hasn't achieve nerdbomber status yet
03:18 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/snap-unknown-20080924-231450-1.jpeg http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/snap-unknown-20080924-231511-1.jpeg http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/snap-unknown-20080924-231528-1.jpeg
03:18 < fenn> does this make me look fat?
03:18 < fenn> hmm third one is wrong
03:24 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/snap-unknown-20080924-232042-1.jpeg http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/snap-unknown-20080924-232155-1.jpeg
03:24 < fenn> surprisingly difficult to take pics of the back of your head
03:26 < fenn> so that's the rigid headband, and i think it's the way to go
03:27 < fenn> the flexible band from the flashlight has a plate that pushes against your forehead and it gets uncomfortable after a couple hours (at least as a flashlight you can move it to different positions without affecting function much)
03:40 < kanzure> what's that thingy on the back
03:42 < fenn> the knob to adjust headband size
03:42 < fenn> i think you could easily get rid of the frankenstein knobs because there's a 3/8" square region underneath where the knob mounts, you could turn it inside out
03:47 < fenn> oo At 60 cd/m2, a full-color SVGA+ or SVGA 3D OLED-XL display running at 60 Hz requires less than 250 mW
03:47 < fenn> am wondering how bright is 60cd/m2 exactly
03:48 < kanzure> warning: do not look into laser with remaining eye.
03:48 < kanzure> which one does 60 cd/m^2 ?
03:49 < fenn> this is from emagin.com
03:49 < fenn> its the fluffy marketing page
04:02 < fenn> man konqueror used to be bulletproof, now it crashes constantly and is slow as a dog
04:02  * fenn suspects the GNU flash plugin
04:03 < fenn> hrm not installed..
04:03 < kanzure> gnash?
04:04 < fenn> it used to just not show any flash crap, now it (tries to)
04:05  * fenn starts chopping away at xml files
04:05 < kanzure> for what?
04:05 < fenn> there's no way to remove plugins
04:11  * fenn drops a bloody carcass of excised plugin
05:02 < fenn> i just realized i haven't double clicked on anything for years
05:03 < bkero> What's a double click?
05:03 < bkero> Is that like clicking twice on something?
05:03 < kanzure> it's an ad server
05:04 < fenn> yes, amazon patented the single click, so all new web developers have to use double click
05:05 < fenn> unles doubleclick.net patented that too
12:54 < kanzure> 21977.
12:58 < kanzure> http://www.dartmouthatlas.org <-- maps healthcare spending in the US according to the extropian mailing list
13:00 < kanzure> http://www.project10tothe100.com/
13:00 < kanzure> Hm. A lot of good articles were just posted to that mailing list. 
13:00 < kanzure> http://www.boingboing.net/2008/09/23/what-went-wrong.html print your own money, local currencies
13:00 < kanzure> Keith Henson complaining about ITR
13:01 < kanzure> ITAR
13:01 < kanzure> and that Google funding opportunity.
13:02 -!- Phreedom_ is now known as p1tbull
13:02 < kanzure> Hi p1tbull.
13:02  * kanzure runs off to class
13:03 < p1tbull> :)
13:04  * nsh waves to *
13:04 < nsh> so
13:05 < nsh> LETS for information manipulation
13:05 < nsh> (local exchange trading schemes)
13:05 < nsh> schemes or systems, i forget
13:06 < nsh> so, the real currency is no longer particularly physical, monitary or laborial capital, as traditionally envisioned
13:06 < nsh> nor specifically information-as-data
13:07 < nsh> but rather the interface of intelligent agent and information
13:07 < nsh> intelligent tranformation of information as the tradeable commodity
13:10 < nsh> what would be nice, in terms of increasing the self-organisational competancy of the microeconomy(ies), would be if the (movement, exchange, flow) of currency itself would be a substrate for computation
13:11 < nsh> an economy is a decentralised, autopoietic (self-maintaining) processing system that projects externalities (information not explicit in the economic data) onto the exchange of monitary and other financial instruments
13:13 < nsh> in-so-much-as the decision-making which informed the flow of currency around the economic network is informed by intelligent, conscious (and to a certain extent, rational) agents, the system acts as a hypercomputer on the explicit economic data
13:13 < nsh> the agents playing the role of 'oracles'
13:19 < nsh> so, the degree to which this decentralised, highly-parallel and oracular computational architecture is efficiently employed depends on the level of accessible complexity in the exchanged values within the economy
13:20 < nsh> as analogy: physically-speaking, there is the same degree of complexity involved in the physics of your computer whether it's on or off, "nature" doesn't suddenly need to devote more of its "computational resources" to the system just because you're using it productively
13:21 < nsh> but when the computer is on, there is 'simply' a massively higher degree of accessibility to the complex physical operations that would be taking place anyway within the molecules of the computer's components
13:22 < nsh> correlations are formed between the internal informational processes of the system (electron/hole dynamics, etc.) and meaningful externalities
13:22 < nsh> (words you're typing or reading, data on the internet, etc.)
13:23 < nsh> in the same way, one could theoretically 'harness' the computational complexity of the information processing inherent to an economic system such that its dynamics were correlated to meaningful, humanly-accessible data
13:25 < nsh> now, in a sense, this already occurs, as any economy is, at heart, a (relatively) robust and resiliant decentralised risk-processing computer
13:26 < nsh> however, as is demonstrated currently by world economic events, the self-organisational competancy, as demonstrated by the resistance to cascade of small-scale instabilities toward large-scale instabilities, of the macroeconomy, well, leaves much to be desired
13:27 < nsh> and, i would suggest it might well be argued, the degree to which the computational processing inherent to the system is productively employed is almost minimal
13:27 < nsh> perhaps vanishingly so: like using a laptop as a paper-weight, you might say
13:29 < nsh> my thesis is that this inefficiency of utilitisation is a consequence of the triviality of information exchange internalised to the system
13:29 < nsh> to wit: money-as-(essentially integer)-number
13:31 < nsh> another possibly apt analogy here would be towards Wolfram's demonstration of a 'complexity threshold' below which only trivial ('random' or highly repetative) computations can be performed by an iterative system (cellular automatic, recursive functions, yadda-yadda)
13:32 < nsh> or the results of the Santa Fe group on the types of complex system, and the optimal zone between predictable and chaotic behavior (class III systems, iirc)
13:35 < nsh> so, the theory is that if, within some (ecology of) Local Exchange Trading Schemes, which -- rather than dealing with essentially trivial 'flat', monotonically-increasing, quantities (ie, any analogue of money) -- process information via the exchange of complex and semantically-meaningful data structures, themselves highly-correlated to each other and/or externalities of the system, 
13:37 < nsh> it would be possible to create a form of economic 'super-organism' of intelligent agent-based information transformation, manipulation, and utilisation
13:37 < nsh> (analogy here is to bee and the superorganism of the hive)
13:37 < nsh> *bees
13:39 < nsh> instead of pheremones and physical motility, the communicative substrate would be the internet-facilitated exchange of data-structures representing the commoditised trading of information-manipulation for useful gain
13:40 < nsh> the complexity (and hence self-organisation competancy) would result from the interaction of the agents and the nontrivial information exchanged, and emergent patterns derived from these interactions
13:42 < nsh> coupling to real external interests, in the form of necessities, gain of utility, as well as the darwinian competition inherent to any relatively-deregulated market-based economy, would drive the evolution of the system to greater degrees of functionality
13:44 < nsh> the low latency of internet-enabled communications and the high level of (almost) ubiquitous data-processing capabilities would allow for greater integration of the exchanged commodities (information of value) in the form of long-range correlations
13:45 < nsh> such as are inherent in any physical system which falls under the general banner of superconductivity (macroscopically-quantum dynamics)
13:46 < nsh> such systems being characterised by high levels of efficiency (low resistance, wasted energy) and co-operativity
13:46 < nsh> (low degree of internal antagonism of dynamics)
13:47 < nsh> ------------thought-dump complete--------------
13:54 < ybit> related to LETS: http://openmoney.info/
13:55 < nsh> yeah, there are some neat ideas floating about
13:56 < nsh> but they all seem to be struck on the idea of wealth or money as something you measure on a flat line
13:56 < nsh> and move about in simple quantities
13:56 < nsh> like tricking out a chariot as far as i'm concerned
13:57 < nsh> you might end up with a badass looking chariot, but it ain't gonna get you very far
13:57  * nsh wants a chariot
14:23 < nsh> fucking sycophants :-/
14:41 < ybit> class is calling
17:22 < kanzure_> I'm not understanding why trade has to be the fundamental property.
17:36  * kanzure_ has read nsh's discussion in ##sl4
17:37 < kanzure_> Everyone of these darned singularitarians is approaching it from the opposite direction, i.e. hearing eli first, not from their own musings and attempts to struggle with the possibility space
17:37 < kanzure_> this makes it particularly hard to propose alternatives to them.
17:41 < kanzure_> http://genetrap.org/
19:27 < kanzure_> Hi nsh.
19:27 < kanzure_> I'm not understanding. Why trade?
19:42 < kanzure_> hrm. There needs to be a better way to seed the repository.
19:42 < kanzure_> but in the mean time, some code to check for the intersection of design graphs couldn't hurt.
19:42  * kanzure_ hunts for food
20:28 < fenn> you said it, nsh, whuff!
20:29 < fenn> now go write a webpage with some annoying CMS and give it a fancy progressive-sounding name
20:52 < kanzure_> fenn: that can be taken both ways
20:53 < kanzure_> both in the sense of "uh, implementation" and "ha, I'm making a cunning observation about the still pathetic state of the internets"
20:53 < fenn> that was the intent
20:53 < fenn> but more important is just to get it in a more public form than some irc channel
20:54 < kanzure_> oh, you were serious :(
20:54 < fenn> no
20:54 < kanzure_> well, yes, that's true
20:54 < kanzure_> just dump the logs into an html page I guess.
20:54 < fenn> sure
20:54 < fenn> take the initiative, captain ahab
20:54 < fenn> i mean, uh, oh worthy leader
20:56 < fenn> i guess i'll slap it up on my sad excuse for a webpage and check the logs in a year to see if anyone has looked at it
20:56 < kanzure_> it's interesting how google doesn't thoroughly index my rants
20:57 < kanzure_> I suppose I don't link to them elsewhere on the accessible webs, mostly just by linkdroping in chats
21:01 < fenn> the html rants? or wiki rants?
21:01 < kanzure_> html rants
21:01 < kanzure_> wiki rants seem to be indexed actually
21:01 < kanzure_> O.o
21:02 < fenn> that figures. your site is pretty small and should have been completely indexed within a month
21:02 < fenn> so the links are just not reachable from anywhere
21:02 < kanzure_> front pae
21:02 < kanzure_> page
21:02 < kanzure_> also, it's currently at 24723
21:03 < fenn> dunno. check your robots.txt?
21:03 < kanzure_> Arlon. Thermabonde-45. Uncured silicone. Thermal management polymer. Maximum service temperature - air - 232 Celsius.
21:03 < kanzure_> http://arlon-std.com/
21:09 < kanzure_> Heh, my multivariable calculus TA sends out emails to his class that are pgp signed :)
22:00 < kanzure> yay, "Douglas Engelbart confirmed you as a friend on facebook"
22:00 < kanzure> gotta catch 'em all
22:03 < kanzure> hah, drug bust in the city. 100 kg of marijuana.
22:03 < fenn> peanuts
22:04 < fenn> austin time exchange network.. sounds like a bad idea
22:04 < kanzure> time exchange?
22:05 < fenn> i can spend 5 minutes fixing your problem, or all day banging my head against a wall
22:05 < kanzure> what problem?
22:05 < kanzure> what?
22:05 < fenn> it's supposed to be a money alternative
22:06 < kanzure> Dale Kipp, Director of MatWeb 2020 Kraft Drive Blacksburg, VA 24060 USA (540) 552-5300
22:08 < kanzure> Hm. He's on facebook.
22:08 < kanzure> what is it that nsh says? fight the enemy from within or something?
22:08 < kanzure> or was that Luke Skywalker?
22:08  * kanzure just finished reading part 1 of "Dark Empire"
22:09 < fenn> it's a saying from the aliens in "aliens"
22:24 -!- Phreedom_ is now known as Phreedom
23:04 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/starwars/1001.png star wars disappoints me here.
23:13 < kanzure> oops
23:13 < kanzure> wrong hdd
23:13 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/docs/starwars/1001.png
23:36 < kanzure> Does anybody have a patents torrent?