--- Day changed Thu Oct 16 2008
00:28 < kanzure> Collis is fun. He fits right in with the openmanufacturing crowd.
00:50 < drazak> I don't know how into openmanufacturing I am
00:50 < drazak> I think there's a place for it
00:50 < drazak> but I think there's a place for commercial manufacturing
00:50 < kanzure> One sec. Two distinctions to make.
00:50 < kanzure> drazak: Re: 'improvement', our conversation from the other day, what do you think of the concept of 'self-creation'? Creation as in, making, doing, becoming, manufacturing, building.
00:51 < drazak> I thin people should do more ofthat
00:51 < drazak> but we can't make cand create everything ourselves
00:51 < kanzure> Secondly, commercial as in what -- money? Why money, why not rubies? Why not {insert some silly concept here}? There's some ideas floating around on that mailing list about 'post-scarcity economics' -- agalmics and such. Have you read the algamics essay?
00:51 < kanzure> drazak: If people aren't making everything, then who is? God?
00:51 < drazak> no, I haven't
00:51 < kanzure> hrm
00:52 < kanzure> drazak: 
00:52 < kanzure> erm
00:52 < kanzure> http://www.openverse.com/~dtinker/agalmics.html
00:52 < drazak> kanzure: I meant, people should make more of their own stuff for themselves
00:53 < kanzure> What did you say previously that would make me think you didn't mean that?
00:53 < drazak> but there still has to be a unified commercial infrastructure, IE some guy making money off us, as it creates some ammount of quality assurance
00:53 < kanzure> How do you know that?
00:53 < drazak> I don't know how assured my quality is if some people aren't making money off it
00:53 < drazak> what's their motive?
00:53 < fenn> my experience is that items made outside of the money-based industries are inferior
00:53 < fenn> erf
00:53 < fenn> s/inferior/superior/
00:53 < kanzure> hahah
00:54 < kanzure> fenn: That's a pretty bad mistake to make there.
00:54 < fenn> freudian slip :P
00:54 < drazak> lol
00:54 < fenn> oh well, i couldnt make a laser printer in my garage if i tried
00:54 < fenn> that's the real problem
00:54 < kanzure> To what extent of 'make' though? Are you going to make the toner cartridge?
00:55 < kanzure> Because it's basically some sort of laser dongle that activates the toner on a roller in a certain pattern, and then it rolls on to the page or some such
00:55 < drazak> I meant anything
00:55 < drazak> but whatever
00:56 < kanzure> "I don't know how assured my quality is if some people aren't making money off of it [anything]" <- That?
00:56 < drazak> my views are insubstatial in the greater world, as they're similar to others views
00:56 < fenn> kanzure: make all the parts that wouldnt exist if there were no commercial entity manufacturing laser printers
00:57 < drazak> no, I meant we should start making things for ouselves, but I don't necessarily mean stuff like /toner cartridges/ I meant clothes and essentials
00:57 < fenn> why clothes and not toner cartridges?
00:57 < kanzure> clothing or the written word? Hrm.
00:57 < kanzure> written word *on* clothing!
00:57 < kanzure> problem solved?
00:57 < drazak> toner cartridges are a luxury
00:57 < fenn> e-ink jacket
00:57 < drazak> kanzure: pen and paper, etc
00:58 < fenn> drazak: clothes are a luxury
00:58 < kanzure> You tell me when you get done transcribing tonight's TCP headers by hand..
00:58 < drazak> uh...
00:58 < drazak> you're not printing TCP headers either
00:58 < fenn> drazak: a large human population is a luxury, maybe we should just let everyone die and have only people living in tropics
00:59 < drazak> fenn: not inthis odern day, clothes are considered essential
00:59 < fenn> some people consider a cellphone to be essential
00:59 < drazak> eh
00:59 < fenn> personally, i couldn't imagine life without a pocket knife, but sometimes i have to make do
01:00 < drazak> clothing, food, shelter, water, and tools to help gain the others
01:00 < drazak> are the essentials :)
01:00 < fenn> what about air?
01:00 < fenn> what about love, purpose, freedom?
01:01 < drazak> I'm talking about physical needs
01:01 < drazak> gah
01:01 < kanzure> "Oh, no thank you. Freedom for me."
01:01 < drazak> maybe I'm being too serious, and you're not
01:01 < drazak> :P
01:01 < fenn> when people start telling me that clothing and shelter are essentials, i get suspicious
01:01 < kanzure> laaaand
01:01 < drazak> right
01:01 < drazak> because I definitely want to spend a buffalo winter
01:01 < drazak> nude
01:02 < drazak> without shelter
01:02 < drazak> no fricking thank you
01:02 < fenn> kanzure: "land" just means, there is some promise that nobody is going to come and kill you just for existing
01:02 < kanzure> fenn: right
01:03 < fenn> drazak: i like gupta's list of things that will kill people on opentoolbox
01:03 < drazak> no idea what that is
01:04 < drazak> honestly, I'm just here for the biochemistry
01:04 < drazak> :P
01:04 < kanzure> From openmanufacturing?
01:04 < fenn> remove all the causes of death, are your "essentials" met?
01:04 < kanzure> btw, I just posted to openmanufacturing about some biochem bootstrapping of some of those efforts (in response to Collis)
01:04 < fenn> its buried in this pdf somewhere, basically "overheating, hypothermia, illness, malnutrition, injury"
01:05 < kanzure> stupidity
01:05 < kanzure> oh wait.
01:05 < kanzure> Nevermind.
01:05 < drazak> kanzure: link?
01:06 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/1cb7121cc12c2ef8
01:06 < fenn> (the pdf: http://media.theopentoolbox.com/3_The_Open_Toolbox_for_Domestic_Disaster_Response_03102008_draft.pdf)
01:11 < kanzure> Gah. I did something very stupid. I took a dose of Adderall at 19:30.
01:12 < fenn> you FOOL!
01:12 < fenn> now you are going to just have to do homework for the next 5 hours straight
01:13 < drazak> I'm about to fall asleep
01:13 < fenn> i have a long boring night ahead of me
01:15 < fenn> orbital LOX mining? how would that even work?
01:17 < kanzure> fenn: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/LEO_Atmospheric_Gas_Harvester_final___John_Wilkes.doc
01:19 < kanzure> Hrm. Let me convert that.
01:20 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/LEO_Atmospheric_Gas_Harvester_final___John_Wilkes.html 
01:21 < fenn> thanks
01:22 < fenn> kword does a pretty decent job of displaying .doc files in the browser, but i cant figure out how to save them
01:30 < kanzure> Hah! Pay processing is day-of. Cool.
01:34 < fenn> umumum wtf is he talking about propeller airplanes and balloons for?
01:35 < fenn> dipping into the atmosphere as low as it could, and coming to a near stop. Here it would either hover or move very slowly as it gathered and processed the air. After filling its oxygen tanks and ejecting waste gases such as nitrogen, the craft would use boosters to reach orbit
01:35 < fenn> that's so retarded
01:50 < fenn> they should fill the scoop with a region of charged particles that are lighter than oxygen, so during a collision it tends to slow the oxygen down rather than speed it up
01:51 < kanzure> please reply about retardedness on the mailing list too
01:52 < fenn> it was just annoying that he even mentioned it because it's so far removed from anything that might actually work
01:53 < fenn> its like mentioning giant luna moths as a possible mode of transport to the moon
01:57 < kanzure> Didn't Asimov do that one already?
01:58 < fenn> doctor doolittle
01:58 < kanzure> I've never been so terribly far off. Gah.
01:59 < kanzure> Btw, I've come up with the 'better format' (conceptually), but I want to confirm with the doc before I do something stupid, so this will occur sometime tomorrow
02:00 < kanzure> I took the 'sockets' idea and ran with it, so there's a number of 'sockets' that each part has, in the TCP/IP socket stack sense, not in the sense of actual sockets (the ones that are more related to manufacturing than TCP/IP sockets)
02:00 < kanzure> erm. anyway.
02:00 < fenn> lemme finish reading it
02:01 < fenn> i'm not convinced about the silicon nanoparticles
02:01 < fenn> it seems like possibly one could use a series of giant turbomolecular pumps
02:02 < fenn> to slow the molecules down gradually so they dont bounce out
02:02 < fenn> or not so giant, if the maw is a cone
02:02 < fenn> the centrifugal stress is higher with a smaller fan diameter though
02:03 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/school/buildingbrains/ Dumped some more HTML notes.
02:03 < kanzure> Latest stuff has been actual neurobiology .. i.e., dealing with oscilloscopes and leak channels and dendritic "action potentials" (equivalents of, at least).
02:04 < fenn> people still use oscilloscopes for neurology?
02:04 < kanzure> Actually I was surprised to hear him mentioning something like "no" for that question .. I figured oscilloscopes were as universal as the soldering iron, but as it turns out there's some other device they may be using these days. I'll follow up on this.
02:06 < fenn> oscilloscope is only really good for repeating signals or a single spike
02:06 < fenn> more than that and its hard to display on a little screen :)
02:06 < fenn> so people use data acquisition cards which are basically the same thing, but hooked to a computer
02:07 < kanzure> ? I always assumed that it was what people did anyway.
02:07 < kanzure> Data collection and analysis and such .. no way you're really going to get much from that 4x4 screen of an oscilloscope.
02:07 < kanzure> (for their statistics packages)
02:08 < fenn> well the word "oscilloscope" has become much less defined than it was before digital electronics came around
02:08  * kanzure laughs at his calculus homework. :-( Why the hell am I doing polar coordinate conversion calculations? Don't I have partial differentiable manifolds to swear at??
02:08 < kanzure> 'multivariable calculus'. humph.
02:14 < fenn> there is sort of a flaw in their business plan
02:15 < fenn> if you have a functioning electrodynamic tether, you dont need to use oxygen on orbit for most of their refuel scenarios
02:40 < fenn> there's a lot of extraneous info in that paper, it could be shortened to like 1 page and a drawing
02:44 < fenn> thanks for showing me that. i think it's more useful as a way to get nitrogen and hydrogen for lunar colonies
03:49 < kanzure> Story time.
03:49 < kanzure> I was very annoyed today.
03:50 < kanzure> Some of the bioreactor guys were talking with me about the latest plan to use liquid nitrogen to pop the algae.
03:50 < kanzure> I thought that it was interesting, but remembered that I was looking into liquid nitrogen generation techniques and found it very energetically inefficient back for scramjets and so on. I know, a different application, but it was still something ridiculous in the amount of energy it takes to get it cold.
03:51 < kanzure> But instead of going to look at the numbers they laughed :-) and mentioned that "oh, that's probably encoded in the cost of the liquid nitrogen supply".
03:51 < kanzure> :-/
03:55 < willPower__> what fools.
03:55 -!- willPower__ is now known as willPow3r
03:56 < kanzure> willPow3r: "It's cheap, so it must be right!"
03:57 < willPow3r> slavery was cheap. was the cost of putting the slaves onto the ships encoded in the supply?
03:57 < willPow3r> heh
03:58 < kanzure> What I also see happening is that they are eager to get any lipid extracted at all without regard for the efficiencies in how much energy goes in and out. I don't care how much lipid you get out .. without making sure of your accounting, you could be doing more harm than good.
03:58 < kanzure> Of course, in economic terms, that's irrelevant -- because nobody's actually paying you to be ecologically truthful or whatever you want to call it
03:58 < kanzure> because it's mostly a human perception issue
03:59 < kanzure> Yay science
03:59 < willPow3r> if we were using biofuels to compress the nitrogen, the cost of supply would be significantly more
04:11 < fenn> ooo kanzure rediscovers economics :)
04:12 < kanzure> Re?
04:12 < fenn> energy balance
04:12 < fenn> electricity is so amazingly cheap people don't realize it
04:12 < kanzure> No, I was questioning the re-discovers.
04:13 < fenn> the cost of energy _is_ encoded in the liquid nitrogen you buy at the store (so to speak)
04:13 < kanzure> 'cost of'
04:13 < kanzure> Sure, it pays their bills, if that's what you mean,
04:13 < kanzure> but it doesn't mean that the economy is some global energy usage routing mechanism
04:13 < fenn> i mean the difficulty to make liquid nitrogen on an industrial scale
04:13 < fenn> ah but it is
04:14 < fenn> we dig gold out of the ground instead of dumping electricity into particle accelerators to transmute lead
04:14 < kanzure> Economics 101: materials, resources, energy are always the hax0rs to 'economics'.
04:14 < fenn> because the electricity is too expensive
04:15 < kanzure> I wonder why gene continues to ignore me.
04:15 < kanzure> He keeps showing up with various ideas for the latest and greatest and then is on to the next thing
04:16 < kanzure> I suggest to him some mechanisms of design and verification-of-functionality but it doesn't seem to matter to him
04:16 < kanzure> I wonder what the point of idea-searching is, if you don't do anything but leave the ideas where you found them ?
04:16 < fenn> youthful exhuberance
04:16 < willPow3r> what is he trying to accomplish/build?
04:16 < fenn> i do the same thing.. it's hard to get to know anything if you just narrowly focus on one tiny sliver of specialization
04:16 < kanzure> replicators - via ad hoc methodology - which is exactly what we're not so into around these parts ..
04:16 < kanzure> yeah, I do the same thing as well
04:17 < kanzure> But I try not to be destructive I guess.
04:17 < willPow3r> von neumann?
04:17 < kanzure> Don't know how to explain it.
04:17 < fenn> sorta reminds me of the attempts to treat cancer with the latest magic bullet
04:17 < kanzure> In this case tonight it's the reactor
04:17 < kanzure> yes fenn..
04:18 < fenn> the reactor is a magic bullet?
04:18 < kanzure> Nah, he came somehow to the idea of toroidal vortices, so I recommended some surface rendering and modeling in the CFD simulators, but he's pretty significantly ignoring that
04:18 < fenn> those are pretty cool, yep
04:19 < kanzure> Hell, I even linked him to the code base to start from to hack out some OpenGL and quickly render the different concavities in the surfaces to different whirlpools and such from jet streams;
04:19 < fenn> show him focusfusion.org
04:20 < kanzure> At this point it probably sounds like I'm just annoyed for being ignored but that's not quite it either.
04:20 < kanzure> What gets me is that in the end his method is what happens anyway in most projects ..
04:20 < kanzure> randomly stumbling into ideas and running with them.
04:21 < fenn> there was some kid (ten or so) who kept asking "what if ..." and then i'd patiently consider his scenario and explain the consequences but by the time i was done explaining he was bored and on to the next "what if" scenario
04:21 < fenn> it's not fun being treated as a computer
04:22 < willPow3r> fenn, you need to learn how to make science sound more interesting.
04:22 < kanzure> Interestingly, though, isn't the "random stumble" one method of search for improvements? "Simulated annealing". I 
04:22 < willPow3r> i hope that kid doesn't go on to become a business major
04:22 < fenn> willPow3r: it wasnt science it was crap like "what if we had purple skin"
04:22 < kanzure> willPow3r: Nah, this is a general property of some people.
04:22 < kanzure> I don't know if it's outgrown or what ..
04:22 < kanzure> It's .. alarming.
04:22 < willPow3r> indeed, i see it as a form of losing faith in humanity
04:23 < kanzure> ?
04:23 < fenn> it's hard to get excited about something if you dont see it as a magic bullet
04:23 < kanzure> Isn't the trick to be the magic bullet?
04:23 < fenn> uh, there are no magic bullets
04:23 < kanzure> Oh right. ;-)
04:24 < ybit> now i know what it's like be ignored
04:24  * ybit is the magic bullet
04:24 < kanzure> ybit: Hm?
04:24 < kanzure> Heh.
04:24 < fenn> the trick is to find synergy between non-magic bullets
04:24 < kanzure> sure sure
04:24 < fenn> like miniaturized electronics acts synergistically with computers
04:24 < kanzure> but if you look for that trick, isn't that the magic bullet ?
04:24 < kanzure> trick=magic?
04:24 < kanzure> Yay ontological bullshitting.
04:24 < fenn> magic = how much use you get out of it
04:25 < kanzure> well done
04:25 < fenn> it helps to be grounded :)
04:25 < willPow3r> business is kind of a default major. so to not be able to find something more interesting than business is like saying "im capable of something that, more or less, equates to nothing"
04:25  * fenn is watching richard feynman on youtube
04:25 < kanzure> some quotes that have been floating around in my head today
04:25 < kanzure> "I don't want to take this any further for now. It is just that I have developed an allergy to the reflexive assumption that local truths can be safely applied to global considerations. There is not even a way to get evidence as to whether they can or cannot." 
04:25 < kanzure> Ah, fenn's being pumped up with Feynman. No wonder.
04:25 < kanzure> fenn: I liked Feynman's video on "The Pleasure of Finding Things Out". 
04:25 < fenn> that's what i'm watching
04:26 < kanzure> I think I've read everything by Feynman except Surely You're Joking, Six Lectures, and his comp sci lectures.
04:26 < kanzure> including everything by Carl.
04:26 < fenn> no such thing as 'global'
04:27 < fenn> everything is a special case
04:27 < fenn> unless you want to run a universe simulator
04:27 < fenn> which is equivalent to a time machine in principle
04:28 < fenn> and even then you have to run an infinite number of possible universes
04:28 < kanzure> increasingly coherent over increasing context
04:28 < fenn> piffle
04:28 < kanzure> piffle?
04:28 < fenn> just because you want it to be that way doesn't make it so
04:28 < kanzure> Sorry, was just reciting Jefisms.
04:29 < kanzure> No, that's the same thing as talking about synergies of nonmagicbullets.
04:29 < fenn> the essence of bureaucratic injustice is to apply "globally coherent" rules to specific situations
04:29 < kanzure> globally coherent would seem to imply local incoherence
04:30 < fenn> what is 'coherent' supposed to mean btw?
04:30 < kanzure> thus no coherence ..
04:30 < fenn> i've got this picture of random static zooming out to flat gray
04:30 < kanzure> I don't want to go into this at the moment, but basically it's a Jefism, it's his way of talking about these things, and he does present a persistent development of these ideas on the mailing lists, but it doesn't matter that much
04:30 < kanzure> heh
04:32 < kanzure> processing.
04:32 < kanzure> Jef: hmmm, i would picture an intricate fractal pattern becoming increasingly disorganized and fading out to the edges
04:32 < kanzure> 'random static is by definition incoherent'
04:33 < fenn> a fractal would remain equally ordered/chaotic at all length scales
04:35 < kanzure> "Yes, but the kind of fractals found throughout nature show only approximate self-simlarity at various scales, evidene of nature's tendency to preserve and re-use patterns that work."
04:35 < kanzure> bleh
04:36 < fenn> dunno what that's in reference to
04:36 < kanzure> "And the fading out is not in nature but due to the observer's limit of vision."
04:37 < kanzure> maybe I can get him in here so that I don't have to play conduit..
04:46 < fenn> lol feynman "but those are mysteries i want to investigate without knowing the answer to them'
04:49 < ybit> kanzure, have you checked into getting a fablab any further?
04:49 < ybit> (for your uni.)
04:50 < fenn> why isnt any university working on making low cost fablab tools?
04:50 < kanzure> No. At this point it's my understanding that I just need to write out the checks to get the equipment.
04:51 < fenn> there's no reason these fablab's can't produce most of the pieces required to build their own tools
04:51 < kanzure> knowledge.
04:51 < fenn> for example milling circuit boards for stepper drivers on a cnc mill
04:53 < fenn> and there's no investigation into building motors from scratch on the same equipment
04:53 < fenn> to reduce the number of external inputs
04:54 < fenn> then you just stockpile external inputs like power transistors, microcontrollers, copper wire
04:54 < fenn> hopefully that gets enough economies of scale to make it worth doing in the first place, rather than outsourcing
04:56 < fenn> would also like to see more small-scale recycling research
05:31 < ybit> quote: 
05:31 < ybit> For each Fab Lab, MIT
05:31 < ybit> pays for equipment, and the host country provides the location for the
05:31 < ybit> lab. 
05:32 < ybit> if only it was :%s/country/university 
05:33 < fenn> personally i think they should supply it on a floating sea platform
05:33 < fenn> anchored at the border of the 200 mile EEZ of course
05:34 < ybit> :)
06:15 < kanzure> fenn: if you don't believe in magic bullets then how can you possibly believe in intelligence.
06:37 < kanzure> ew. weird question has been posted to the openmanufacturing mailing list.
07:21 < fenn> intelligence isnt a magic bullet either. look where it's gotten us pathetic humans
07:23 < kanzure> and yet people would say that's because humans /aren't/ intelligent
07:23 < kanzure> I'm pretty sure I've caught you.
07:24 < kanzure> don't you have to grant me three wishes now or something?
07:24 < fenn> hmph
07:24 < fenn> you can have me lucky charms, but you'll never get me gold!
07:25 < fenn> one definition of intelligence is "the ability to solve problems with limited resources"
07:27 < fenn> so, perhaps we just aren't intelligent enough, which is equivalent to saying we don't have enough resources
07:28 < kanzure> "guns don't solve problems, people solve problems" insert vague reference to our previous talk about magic bullets or something
07:28 < kanzure> but don't bother because I'm technically not thinking at the moment
07:31  * fenn returns to watching macross plus
07:31 < kanzure> buh! lucky.
07:31 < kanzure> which one?
07:45 < fenn> um, the movie
07:45 < fenn> with "sharon apple" aka gabriela robin
08:10 < kanzure> http://brainsway.com/ - deep brain TMS. " Deep TMS uses a unique, patented coil design to produce directed electromagnetic fields that can induce excitation or inhibition of neurons deep inside the brain.
" 
08:10 < kanzure> http://www.neuronetics.com/ - TMS to treat depression.
08:10 < kanzure> http://brainsway.com/Brainsway/Templates/showpage.asp?DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=318&PID=496
08:10 < kanzure> ' f                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Three-Dimensional Distributio
08:13 < kanzure> yep, numerical optimization of coil design
08:15 < kanzure> 'Hesed coil'
08:16 < kanzure> bah, simulations with Mathematica ..
08:17 < kanzure> 'the head was modeled as a spherical homogenous volume conductor with a radius of 7 cm'
08:20 < kanzure> Eaton 1992 Eaton H. Electric field induced in a spherical volume conductor from arbitrary coils: application to magnetic stimulation and MEG.
08:22 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/open-rtms/Eaton - Electric field induced in a spherical volume conductor from arbitrary coils: application to magnetic stimulation and MEG.pdf
08:24 < kanzure> Line integrals.
12:46 < kanzure> https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/handle/1807/11280
12:54 < kanzure> Steve and I were discussing some possibilities of a field programmable coil arrays for transcranial magnetic stimulation this morning. More just an issue of choosing which parts of the coils to activate to generate a particular electric field shape for the stimulation of a particular region of the brain, and I suspect it would have something to do with the instantiation of dipole moments.
13:43 < nsh> YAY SPHERICAL COWS
13:43 < nsh> the head is now a spherical homogenous conductor, yo
13:43 < nsh> when you're plan is to fuck around with strong magnetic fields in the damn brain, you might want to sharpen your level of approximation 
13:43 < nsh> *your
16:58 < kanzure_1_> Hrm. The laptop is off again.
17:34 < kanzure_1_> hplusmagazine has been published. Have not read it.
17:39 < kanzure_1_> Michel sent out an email about 'VOICED'. My immediate reaction was "Woah. Awesome! I gotta forward this to Dr. Campbell." 
17:39 < kanzure_1_> Second reaction, after forwarding it to Dr. Campbell was, "Oh shit, *we're* VOICED."
17:50 < ybit_school> kanzure_ didn't you find a site which lists where natural materials can be found/mined?
17:51 < ybit_school> or if someone else did, speak up please :)
17:53 < ybit_school> mapsofworld.com 
17:53 < ybit_school> hm, need something better... oh yeah, i know
17:53 < kanzure_1_> ybit_school: Yes, I did.
17:53 < kanzure_1_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/
17:53 < kanzure_1_> mindat.zip
17:53 < kanzure_1_> Should be small.
17:53 < ybit_school> bam
17:53 < ybit_school> that's it
17:54 < ybit_school> i remember looking through that site while in nashville
17:54 < ybit_school> gracias
17:54 < kanzure_1_> VOICED =~ Virtual Organization for Innovative Conceptual Engineering Design
17:55 < kanzure_1_> http://www.hplusmagazine.com/
17:59 < ybit_school> http://www.mindat.org/min-2358.html is showing a different location of lead from http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-mineral-map.htm
18:02 < ybit_school> mapsoftheworld shows lead in south america, but it doesn't show oil in brazil
18:03 < kanzure_1_> That magazine .. it's just a walking piece of commercialism.
18:20 < ybit_school> theoretically, all machines are open-hardware, is it possible for a city such as Sao Paulo to become self-sufficient? Trade is needed for access to minerals they don't have, right? I'm having a difficulty seeing how such a city could be self-sufficient without rockets and robots mining some extraterrestrial body
18:22 < UtopiahG1ML> Brazil have Oil they have the Petrobras company which is one of their top firm despite its kind of special status (private/public own)
18:23 < ybit_school> right, so.. a country which is insufficient in natural resources
18:23 < UtopiahG1ML> ehh... like all countries basically?
18:24 < ybit_school> exactly
18:24 < UtopiahG1ML> what's your point/question?
18:25 < ybit_school> no point
18:25 < UtopiahG1ML> are you woman?
18:25 < ybit_school> the question is doesn't a country/city need to trade?
18:25 < ybit_school> haha, no
18:25 < UtopiahG1ML> ok, just checking because women tend to do that, discussing without having a point
18:26 < ybit_school> i
18:26 < ybit_school> 'm not discussing, mostly asking
18:26 < UtopiahG1ML> well if a system lack resources it needs to get them by trade of force yes
18:26 < UtopiahG1ML> of/or
18:27 < ybit_school> i would like to for a city to be self-sufficient and still have decent technolgy without needing to trade, but just not seeing how it's possible without trade
18:27 < bkero> What would they have to trade for?
18:28 < UtopiahG1ML> have you check the NASA experiments regarding self-sustainability of an isolated system that includes human beings?
18:28 < ybit_school> UtopiahG1ML: no
18:28 < ybit_school> bkero: minerals of course
18:28 < UtopiahG1ML> I can't remember the name but they sponsored such experiments
18:28 < ybit_school> http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-mineral-map.htm -- you can see that not all countries have the same resources
18:29 < bkero> Depends on what standard of living you want.
18:29 < bkero> What do you need minerals for?
18:29 < ybit_school> well, i'm aiming for a high standard of living in this theoretical world
18:30 < ybit_school> to create the open-machines
18:31 < UtopiahG1ML> entropy?
18:31 < nsh> ENTROPY
18:32 < bkero> ENTROPY
18:32 < ybit_school> wtf?
18:32 < ybit_school> explain please
18:34 < ybit_school> i know what it is, just not understanding wher you three are going with it :)
18:34 < bkero> Don't mind me, I'm just reiterating.
18:34 < ybit_school> steel, glass, titanium, and Lead zirconate titanate == edm machine
18:35 < ybit_school> and just for glass: sand, trona, lime, albite, orthoclase, dolomite, borax
18:35 < bkero> You can use sugar for glass instead of sand.
18:36 < ybit_school> cool
18:36 < bkero> Hollywood does it all the time to make more breakable glass.
18:36 < bkero> You can also eat it. :)
18:36 < ybit_school> no thanks :)
18:45 < ybit_school> i suppose trade is necessary. so what is the impact of open-sourcing the hardware design? probably a lower cost of goods for most people, more and quicker innovation; and for some countries, a greater independence.
18:58 < ybit_school> well, i'm off
20:01 < bkero> kanzure_1_: ping
20:03 < fenn> ybit: no, you don't need trade, but cities are mostly sited near bodies of water or other features that promote trade. rarely do you see a large city on mineral rich areas or good soil
20:04 < fenn> kanzure_1_: who is VOICED? (yes i've read the email) (and whats up with the annoying all caps)
20:05 < fenn> (sounds like a "transhumanist engineers come out of the closet" organization)
20:34 -!- splicer_sleeping is now known as splicer
20:35 < fenn> who is "Humanity+"?
20:35 < fenn> "we have rebranded our organization Humanity+"  but they dont say what they were before
20:38 < fenn> oh, it's WTA, blah
20:47 < splicer> looks a bit oprah to me
20:47 < splicer> wasn't kanz one of the webmasters there?
20:49 < splicer> heh... the swedish chapter there still links to my forum
20:51 < bkero> Laptop is sold.
21:16 < ybit> congrats bkero
21:34 < fenn> The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by Divine Providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. That is why I am your king!
21:35 < fenn> i need to learn how to pull off a stunt like that and have people believe it
21:37 < bkero> Watch the Upright Citizens Brigade.
21:49 < xp_prg> hi all!
21:59 < fenn> hah. RU Sirius cc's any correspondence to his lawyer by default. what's this world coming to
22:03 < fenn> sigh.. do i have to write a standard essay debunking the various "essentials" for human life?
22:04 < fenn> everyone seems to have a different idea about what's "essential"
22:20 < splicer> "Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords is no basis for a system of government"
22:34 < kanzure_> "Humanity+" is WTA, yes. And we all hate them for this.
22:34 < kanzure_> Re: open hardware / efficiency
22:34 < kanzure_> Will get back to this after I get sleep. I have a test from 7 to 9 tonight, so sleep isn't coming soon. :/
22:35 < fenn> who is "VOICED"?
22:36 < fenn> Robert Stone  Daniel McAdams  University of Missouri-Rolla ?
22:36 < fenn> hmm Matthew Campbell sounds familiar
22:37 < fenn> i guess thats him http://www.me.utexas.edu/~campbell/index.htm
22:39  * fenn grumbles about academics
22:40 < fenn> for $82k you'd think they could at least make a webpage
22:40 < kanzure_> 82k whats?
22:40 < kanzure_> Yes, Robert Stone and such.
22:41 < fenn> $82k NSF grant award
22:41 < fenn> for ... something
22:42 < kanzure_> okay, so as it turns out, other universities have their reverse engineering classes secretly inserting data into the repository entry app
22:42 < kanzure_> as it turns out, campbell and I both hate it now
22:42 < fenn> oh, boxes with arrows
22:42 < kanzure_> soo I've sold him on the ajax interface
22:42 < fenn> how original
22:43 < kanzure_> I prefer CLI always; but if we want to make sure we're getting the data /we/ want ..
22:43 < kanzure_> apparently the MST/Stone-group people aren't really using the repository for anything
22:43 < kanzure_> I mean, if they are, the data's fucking ridiculous
22:43 < kanzure_> (so yes, I now consider it mostly useless)
22:45 < fenn> so the idea is just 'put up a server and have multiple universities contribute to it'?
22:45 < kanzure_> "The idea"? 
22:45 < kanzure_> That's not VOICED, to my knowledge.
22:46 < fenn> well all i have to go on is this poster: http://www.engr.psu.edu/ideasLab/projects/VOICEDPoster.pdf
22:46 < kanzure_> I have three or four printed pages somewhere
22:47 < kanzure_> He printed out the VOICED proposal for me, at least a few pages, since I was eager to go over it a month ago
22:47 < kanzure_> I'll dig it out Real Soon.
22:47 < fenn> well, if it's not terribly interesting then nevermind
22:47 < kanzure_> oh, it was, it wasn't anything surprising but it was interesting and nice to see.
22:48 < fenn> i was sorta confused because it sounded a lot like SKDB and i thought maybe i was participating in some shadowy organization without knowing it
22:48 < kanzure_> Heh.
22:48 < kanzure_> That may well be the case for both of us ..
22:49 < kanzure_> or not. Anyway, a lot of the things going on here sound like SKDB, and that's why I'm there in the first place.
22:49 < fenn> right
22:49 < kanzure_> Although Michel bringing it up 
22:49 < kanzure_> is a very interesting find.
22:49 < fenn> i wonder how he even foudn it
22:49 < kanzure_> I should become Michel.
22:49 < fenn> oh right, Franz Nahrada
22:50 < kanzure_> is he at a uni?
22:50 < fenn> omg fucking patrick anderson is a broken record
22:51 < kanzure_> uh oh.
22:51  * kanzure_ checks.
22:51 < fenn> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/franz-nahrada-can-we-produce-for-physical-abundance-or-sufficiency/2008/01/14
22:51 < fenn> Fabbers may seem amazing, but they will not solve the problems we face. We have always had slow-motion, self-reproducing Fabbers that require only land (surface area), soil, water, sun and the rotting material of previous such Fabbers
22:52 < kanzure_> Not easily programmed.
22:52 < kanzure_> Cite my summer research in intersection of manufacturing+computation in the biological realm of this stuffs.
22:54 < fenn> i like this "Software developers are the Buddhist monks of tomorrow, but the general population has not understood yet that feeding them provides abundance."
22:54  * fenn notes that his kitchen is devoid of food
22:59 < kanzure_> I dislike Christian's semantic mediawiki focus.
22:59  * bkero notes that he's still at work and his kitchen is completely bursting with foods.
22:59 < kanzure_> This is openvirgle all over again.
23:06 < kanzure_> Does anybody want to dump all the reasons from the openvirgle mailing list to openmanufacturing? Seriously ..
23:06 < fenn> the reasons?
23:06 < fenn> i like the name better than 'openvirgle' at least :)
23:07 < fenn> there's at least a connotation of making stuff
23:07 < fenn> even if all we do is rant about politics
23:08 < fenn> re: semantic mediawiki, i guess my eyes glazed over when i saw that, dont remember reading it at all
23:09 < kanzure_> reasons re: semantic mediawiki = nothanks, that's what I meant
23:09 < kanzure_> there's quite literally a handful of emails that specifically write it all out
23:09 < fenn> i see
23:09 < kanzure_> also the fact that wikis are just crappy RCSes, etc.
23:09 < fenn> but with the all important Web Interface
23:09 < fenn> (tm)
23:10 < kanzure_> Buddhists monks don't need no damned Web Interface TM.
23:10 < kanzure_> (TM was a "Technical Machine" in the pokemon games.)
23:12 < fenn> jesus christ, christian siefkes wrote a 155 page book on peer production
23:13 < kanzure_> hm?
23:14 < kanzure_> Oh good god
23:14 < kanzure_> 512 203 0507
23:14 < fenn> there's a whole lot of theory out there for what little is actually going on
23:14 < kanzure_> Internet connectivity shutdown
23:15 < kanzure_> "account being on suspension"
23:15 < fenn> um, that sucks
23:15 < fenn> see you at the library :P
23:15 < kanzure_> Redundant lines, my friend.
23:16 < fenn> oh, they're only shutting down one of your illegal pirate hacker tor nodes?
23:19 < kanzure_> "Forgot your username or password? Click here." "THANK YOU, YOUR USERNAME AND PASSWORD HAS BEEN EMAILED TO YOU."
23:19 < kanzure_> MORONS.
23:19  * kanzure_ goes to eat some hybrid orbitals
23:55 < willPow3r> mmm, orbitals. i prefer the sp3 type myself