--- Day changed Tue Oct 21 2008
00:00 < UtopiahGHML> (I also had a "I need all the romz ever" period of my life)
00:00 < kanzure> "White and nerdy" was a title done by Aphex Twins or something.
00:00 < kanzure> Yep, rom hacking to the core.
00:00 < bkero> UtopiahGHML: I still do that.  I have every rom ever.
00:01 < UtopiahGHML> bkero: I have a 2 players big wood arcade pad :)
00:01 < bkero> Full MAME cabinet here at work
00:02 < UtopiahGHML> yeah
00:02 < UtopiahGHML> MAME
00:02 < UtopiahGHML> well I don't have the real cabinet but I did dream about it 
00:06 < UtopiahGHML> (that was "too much" confession , the whole channel froze)
00:07 < kanzure> Trying to act like I'm doing stuff.
00:07 < UtopiahGHML> stuff, always a good cover
01:01 < willPow3r> i hate it when i forget to take my meds
01:01 < nathan_> Hello comrads.
01:02 < willPow3r> privet
01:03 < kanzure> Hey nathan_.
01:03 < kanzure> fenn: you awake?
01:03 < kanzure> nathan_: Did my instructions reach you well?
01:03 < nathan_> they were quite informative!
01:04 < nathan_> enough to land a newb into an irc chatline.
01:06 < kanzure> nathan_: So maybe you'd like to mention a few bits about what it was that you were thinking of re: software for business automation.
01:10 < fenn_> ya
01:11 < nathan_> Yes. To begin, the ultimate goal is the automate the entire workforce. To begin however, the plan is to look at jobs that can be modeled and then transfered into a software package. 
01:11 -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn
01:12 < nathan_> kanzure: you mentioned that a large part of university administration could be automated? What sort of jobs did you have in mind? 
01:13 < nathan_> for a bit a background dealing with my assumptions, see effortlesseconomy.com
01:13 < kanzure> Schedule optimization, conflict checking, forms for students to take actions such as adding/dropping courses and so on; scheduling of rooms and keys to be checked out at certain times, grading of assignments (it's the exceptions that people should be eyeing); etc. 
01:13 < fenn> much of that is already automated at IU
01:13 < kanzure> Hi drazak.
01:13 < drazak> does anyone know of any work done on biomining?
01:13 < kanzure> fenn: Same here. I still have to go talk with people though.
01:14 < kanzure> drazak: Yes.
01:14 < drazak> kanzure: :D
01:14 < kanzure> drazak: See John Cumbers at NASA and my moontank project (which is currently not up - the wiki and such)
01:14 < nathan_> kanzure: you mentioned social conflict. What sort of barriers do you foresee? 
01:14 < kanzure> nathan_: Corporate culture
01:14 < fenn> unions
01:15 < kanzure> drazak: Tomorrow I'm giving some presentations on photobiomining and extraction processes via centifugation and microencapsulation. Here's a good start: http://heybryan.org/bioreactor/Recovery_of_microalgal_biomass_and_metabolites_-_process_options_and_economics.pdf
01:16 < drazak> kanzure: actually, I was thinking that there might be a way to simply make the metals an excretion
01:16 < kanzure> There's a few papers that talk about that, I've glanced over them in the last 48 hours or something. Uhm. Yeah. People are doing it. Let me see if I can't get you a ref.
01:17 < kanzure> For some reason it's a highly popular topic combined with wastewater / sewage treatment. (wtf?)
01:17 < drazak> yeah
01:17 < kanzure> 'Biosorbents for metal recovery'
01:17 < kanzure> Yeah, 'metal recovery'.
01:18 < fenn> plating factories have a lot of metals-contaminated water to treat
01:18 < nathan_> Is anyone familier with the work of Stafford Beer? More particularly, Project Cybersyn? 
01:19 < kanzure> Hey StormtrooperTK79.
01:19 < StormtrooperTK79> Greetings
01:19 < fenn> nathan_: i guess not.
01:19 < kanzure> drazak: http://heybryan.org/bioreactor/Acidophiles in bioreactor mineral processing.pdf
01:19 < kanzure> nathan_: I'm looking.
01:19 < fenn> sorta reminds me of jacques fresco
01:19 < kanzure> Oh, you've mentioned it before. Or maybe Eric.
01:19 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn
01:19 < kanzure> ' It was essentially a network of telex machines that linked factories with a single computer centre in Santiago, '
01:19 < kanzure> Is shogunx online?
01:26 < kanzure> Hi shogunx.
01:26 < shogunx> you rang?
01:26 < shogunx> heh heh
01:27 < kanzure> nathan_ was just discussing Project Cybersyn. It made me think of your deployments that you've been throwing around down south :-)
01:27 < shogunx> how have you been?
01:27 < kanzure> Been doing well.
01:27 < kanzure> School is .. a lot of work. But good times.
01:27 < kanzure> Yourself?
01:28 < shogunx> plugging away.  biz is slow, but then everyones is.
01:28 < shogunx> i wish i was in s. america already with the solarnet... so far just africa.
01:29 < kanzure> I'm fairly certain that's still south of me. I haven't looked at the exact coords though.
01:29 < shogunx> heh
01:30 < kanzure> I wonder if you've plugged into a Fab Lab yet.
01:30 < shogunx> other than my little hackshop, negative, but methinks you are referring to an organized effort of some description.
01:30 < kanzure> You haven't heard of it?
01:31 < kanzure> Hrm, so MIT has these little "build almost anything" labs that they deploy in third world countries.
01:31 < shogunx> negative
01:31 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FabLab
01:31 < shogunx> thats pretty spiffy.
01:31 < kanzure>  Ghana, Sekondi-Takoradi , Pretoria,  Soshanguve. 
01:32 < kanzure> Any of those near you?
01:32 < kanzure> fenn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_fab_lab <-- I hadn't seen this.
01:32 < nathan_> Iceland...
01:32 < fenn> yeah i wonder what's in it
01:32 < shogunx> ghana is not so far away.  i am in nigeria, tunisia, and soon benin.
01:32 < fenn> certainly can't haul around a waterjet cutter
01:33 < kanzure> nathan/fenn - there was something on the openmanufacturing list about a challenge to make a replicator out of a vehicle
01:33 < kanzure> mobile-fablab heh'
01:33 < fenn> mini-cnc mill, laser cutter, vinyl cutter, cnc router
01:34 < fenn> could use a lathe, but i guess that's too advanced for college students :P
01:35 < fenn> the army had a mobile machine shop trailer
01:35 < kanzure> had?
01:35 < fenn> eh, the photos i saw were black and white
01:35 < kanzure> experimental dealy?
01:35 < fenn> this was like WWII
01:36 < kanzure> Hah hah hah!
01:36 < kanzure> Dad just emailed me.
01:36 < kanzure> He found me cited on Wikipedia.
01:37 < nathan_> Yes, the challenge was to have an autonomous vehicle that could duplicate itself with found objects.
01:37 < kanzure> I was using an analogy to automated milk crate pickup service robots, from the old antique days of milkservice trucks. 
01:37 < drazak> kanzure: where? :P
01:37 < nathan_> MIT's mobile fab lab could easily go in that direction. 
01:37 < kanzure> The crates are really a good standard.
01:37 < kanzure> drazak: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biopunk#Biopunk_as_biohacker
01:38 < fenn> nathan_: making their own tools would be a start...
01:39 < kanzure> WTF
01:39 < kanzure> djkf.a;kjf;fka
01:39 < kanzure> Noah's dad was looking into purchasing the mobile fablab.
01:40 < nathan_> with the rate of Moore's law, its like $20 now, right?
01:40 < kanzure> Noah is the fellow friend of David (our CBA contact :-) who shows up every once in a while.
01:40 < fenn> what's $20?
01:40 < nathan_> the mobile fablab.
01:40 < fenn> a milk crate? :)
01:41 < kanzure> Hey Noahj.
01:41 < nathan_> the milk crate the mobile fablab makes... rofl! 
01:41 < Noahj> Hardo. 
01:41 < fenn> nathan_: sadly, there hasn't been much research on low cost machine tools in the last 50 years
01:41 < kanzure> nathan_: Did you see fenn's find of the mini machining factory? The 40x40x40 mm beast.
01:41 < drazak> you know
01:41 < fenn> except for recent innovations involving MDF and gas pipe on cnczone...
01:41 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/manufacturing/minifactory/ has the papers
01:41 < drazak> I bet I could come up with a mini biolab that can do almost anything
01:41 < fenn> but i wouldnt call those machine tools
01:42 < drazak> shy of synthesizing dna and proteins
01:42 < kanzure> drazak: That's what I was doing over the summer sort of.
01:42 < kanzure> drazak: http://heybryan.org/winfree.html
01:42 < kanzure> drazak: There's a way to make DNA and organisms "build shit". 
01:42 < kanzure> drazak: bkero was talking about RNA logic yesterday. We were using transcriptional logic, so it was DNA based. 
01:42 < drazak> hm
01:42 < fenn> drazak: seems DNA synthesis would be pretty straightforward to miniaturize, and it's fairly common thing to need 
01:42 < kanzure> First step is making a Turing pattern turn into this collective growth of sugar crystals .. xp_prg wants to immediately move to 3D cell-manufacturing, but I keep telling him.
01:43 < drazak> you could build dna with reverse transcriptaes, if you have an original sequence
01:43 < kanzure> hrm. Having the wiki down sucks.
01:43 < drazak> fenn: well, I meant so that you can do anything in a short period of time
01:43 < kanzure> I should link to the retarded polymerase project / fenn's writozyme.
01:43 < kanzure> bio is slow.
01:43 < nathan_> how do I msg direct? or better yet, find a list of commands?
01:43 < kanzure> nathan_: type /help
01:43 < kanzure> nathan_: irssi also has its own set of commands
01:43 < kanzure> nathan_: /msg person hello
01:43 < xp_prg> kanzure I trust you :>
01:44 < kanzure> xp_prg: Have you looked into interface1.php yet?
01:44 < drazak> kanzure: aye, but sometimes speed /and/ mobility are important
01:44 < fenn> or if you want to direct a comment at someone you can type the first few letters of thier nick and press tab
01:44 < drazak> with the /best/ technology, you can have a mobile bio lab for ~30k
01:44 < drazak> :S
01:44 < kanzure> drazak: Are you pulling that number out of your ass?
01:44 < fenn> what is "best"?
01:45 < fenn> with the "best" technology, it'd be free
01:45 < fenn> gratis
01:45 < fenn> well, both really
01:45  * drazak eyerolls
01:45 < drazak> you knwo what I meant
01:45 < fenn> not really
01:45  * kanzure doesn't.
01:45 < fenn> a chip fab costs about $10 billion
01:45 < kanzure> well, unless you go totally used
01:45 < kanzure> and even then ..
01:45 < xp_prg> kanzure I am at work I can't until I stop working, I will tonight don't worry!
01:46 < fenn> can't buy used chip fabs cause they're still in use (otherwise they wouldnt have built them)
01:46 < drazak> best, as in current technology needed
01:46 < xp_prg> did you ever get your mediawiki back up man?
01:46 < kanzure> xp_prg: No. It will be up Eventually.
01:46 < xp_prg> I have people interested in the project
01:46 < kanzure> xp_prg - send them in here for now
01:46 < xp_prg> well can we move it to a place that they can get to it?
01:46 < fenn> drazak: maybe you meant "satisfactory" or "complete"
01:46 < xp_prg> dude they don't do irc :(
01:46 < drazak> fenn: complete works, I guess
01:47 < drazak> kanzure: that number wasn't out my ass, but regardless
01:47 < drazak> it was a generalization, I haven't inventoried anything, yet
01:48 < kanzure> xp_prg I can zip up the mysql databases for you if you want.
01:49 < nathan_> asjdfjkl;sdf
01:49 < fenn> damn these new-fangled computers
01:51 < nathan_> more like gar-fangled. 
01:51 < kanzure> Nathan probably needs a tutorial or two for operating irssi.
01:51 < kanzure> pgup/pgdown to see unread stuffs.
01:51 < fenn> i wonder if christian siefkes has ever read "the moon is a harsh mistress"
01:51 < xp_prg> kanzure can you just recreate the wiki some where?
01:52 < kanzure> xp_prg: Probably. If I remember the sequence of commands.
01:52 < fenn> or "footfall"
01:52 < kanzure> The problem is that I have to turn off the server for a sec to move the hdd.
01:52 < kanzure> fenn: funny, my old CS teacher just emailed me linking over to "The Man Who Folded Himself", which was either a Heinlein book too or links over to a Heinlein book about bootstraps and timetravel (sadly about timetravel .. otherwise good titles)
01:53 < kanzure> by 'just' I mean a few seconds ago
01:53 < kanzure> kk, Server dead.
01:54 < kanzure> Ping?
01:54 < fenn> basically any sort of space development results in the possibility of destroying large portions of earth with asteroids
01:55 < kanzure> where'd that come from?
01:55 < kanzure> oh, moon is a harsh mistress
01:55 < kanzure> Sorry.
01:55 < fenn> the "dont do harm" principle argument
01:55 < Noahj> Any sort? Doesn't the ISS fall into that category? 
01:55 < fenn> Noahj: the bigger the asteroid, or the faster it's traveling, the bigger the explosion
01:56  * kanzure asked the engineering study abroad office today whether or not he could do study abroad on ISS.
01:56 < fenn> E = 0.5mv^2
01:56 < kanzure> Hey nathan__.
01:56 < Noahj> But the ISS isn't likely to make bits of the earth easier to destroy with asteroids, is it? 
01:56 < nathan__> Hello
01:57 < kanzure> nathan_ -- oh crap. I just disconnected the server, so do not reload the page. It doesn't exist any more.
01:58 < fenn> Noahj: they do a lot of advanced propulsion research on ISS, is that what you're asking?
01:58 < fenn> a VASIMR engine would be useful for blowing up the earth with asteroids, see
01:58 < fenn> but anyway that's just camping, not really development
01:59 < Noahj> I'm asking what you meant by any sort of space development resulting in the possibility of destroying large portions of the earth with asteroids 
02:00 < Noahj> *looks up VASIMR* 
02:00 < Noahj> Ah. What would you consider space development?
02:00 < fenn> i mean the sort of things useful for moving around asteroids in order to colonize them are also useful for blowing up the earth
02:00 < fenn> or lunar regolith or whatever
02:01 < Noahj> Ooh, that sounds wildly fantastic 
02:01 < fenn> welcome to #hplusroadmap
02:01 < elias`> there ought to be a way to index sites like nature, sciencedirect, maybe sciencemag, etc. in a reasonably intelligent way such that you would have a representation of the sites' content that you could incrementally update and also automate the download of the actual content (I think just PDFs in this case) from the index information
02:01 < fenn> elias`: wget -rk -nc
02:01 < fenn> but these sites are by design hard to mirror
02:02 < elias`> that's the crude approach, AFAICS
02:02 < fenn> wget is not crude :(
02:02 < fenn> if i called it a "dynamic agent-based system" would it sound better?
02:02 < kanzure> Noahj: drazak was talking about biomining earlier tonight. So, asteroid colonization, biomining, the reactor work going on too.
02:02 < kanzure> fenn: don't forget to add 'virtual' or 'cyber'
02:03 < fenn> fuzzy
02:03 < Noahj> Hmm. Aren't the laws a little restrictive in the whole launching huge rockets department? 
02:03 < kanzure> dynamic fuzzy-agent cyber system
02:03 < kanzure> Noahj: Laws?
02:03 < nathan__> ok
02:03 < kanzure> Are you going to stop because of laws ?
02:03 < fenn> i think it's generally illegal to launch huge rockets, or explain how to do so
02:03 < fenn> ITAR etc
02:04 < kanzure> "CFD codes are teh evil!"
02:04 < fenn> ITAR is basically "dont do harm principle" codified
02:04 < kanzure> My father asks, "I have a basic question. What are the four or five main pieces of technology one would need to create a synthetic life form that has an intelligence approaching human?" Argh. Guess I have to go down the "wtf is intelligence" path with him.
02:04 < fenn> it also covers centrifuges, six axis milling machines, and biotech
02:05 < kanzure> is that so?
02:05 < Noahj> Intelligence is something that can beat any human at Arimaa 
02:05 < fenn> its like they peeked in my bookmarks before writing the treaty
02:05 < Noahj> Unfortunately this definition means that most humans aren't intelligent 
02:05 < Noahj> But it's otherwise a good definition 
02:06 < fenn> sounds like a crap definition to me
02:07 < fenn> kanzure: you could use the "what if we simulate a brain on a huge computer" argument
02:07 < kanzure> What am I arguing? nonexistence of intelligence?
02:07 < fenn> how to create a synthetic intelligence
02:08 < kanzure> oh, right
02:08 < Noahj> Just hand your dad GEB and Society of Mind 
02:08 < fenn> and some ANN and FPGA literature
02:08 < kanzure> Noahj: I'm finally setting aside the time to do a full read of GEB, as it turns out.
02:09 < kanzure> I quote from that book more often than I should .. for someone who hasn't read it.
02:11 < Noahj> I don't quote from that book as much as I ought to, for someone who's read it twice 
02:11 < nathan__> in regard to simulating the brain with computation, first it would need to be reverse engineered, right? This article relates... sprectrum.ieee.org/jun08/6268
02:11 < kanzure> Maybe I shouldn't readi t at all?
02:11 < kanzure> yeah, reverse engineering of drosopholia or a fly or some such
02:12 < nathan__> yup. 
02:12 < Noahj> Do VASIMR engines actually exist and work? 
02:12 < kanzure> nathan__ Do you know about my computational neuroscience works?
02:12 < nathan__> kanzure: nay
02:12 < kanzure> nathan__ One of my side projects is a cerebellum simulator and a "brain on a disc", a linux distrobution of comp-neurosci packages.
02:12 < kanzure> *distribution
02:12 < fenn> Noahj: yes, but they are too heavy for practical use right now
02:13 < nathan__> kanzure: that relates well with automating the workforce. ;)
02:14 < nathan__> kanzure: what steps are you taking to accomplish the "brain on a disc" and would it be an AGI? 
02:14 < kanzure> nathan__ It would most certainly not be AGI.
02:15 < kanzure> I have most of the software packages already assembled. What's left is me taking a few hours to read through the "live CD howto" docs to throw it all together into an ISO.
02:15 < fenn> what do you forsee people doing with it?
02:15 < kanzure> farting on it.
02:15 < Noahj> Using it as a frisbee
02:15 < nathan__> would it be able to interact with a human on human terms? Look at source code and alter it to do what a user might want and such?
02:15 < fenn> yes of course, and blessing it with holy penguin pee
02:15 < kanzure> These packages include NEURON, GENESIS, PDP++, Emergence, all sorts of different packages.
02:16 < Noahj> I've noticed that that's what people do with CDs 
02:16 < kanzure> No, it's a collection of different simulation packages, some that do membrane physics, others that do neuron physics.
02:16 < Noahj> And you can't exactly hand them an ISO 
02:16 < Noahj> They're all well-trained from the AOL years 
02:16 < nathan__> ahh.
02:17 < fenn> but why go to all this trouble just so people can fart on it?
02:17 < kanzure> fenn: This is why I haven't put much effort into it.
02:17 < kanzure> And thus it is incomplete.
02:17 < kanzure> I wanted to do "building brains", remember?
02:17 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/buildingbrains.html
02:17 < kanzure> And it just so happens that I got into a "Building Brains" class in uni heh'.
02:19 < fenn> oh well. maybe it will boost your slashdot score
02:20 < kanzure> what is it these days?
02:20 < fenn> +229 croissants, -194 fishbones
02:22 < kanzure> Hey nsh-.
02:30 < kanzure> Hrm. Everyone died.
02:31 < kanzure> fenn: Automated design of genetic regulatory networks for use in the neurofarm ideas .. that sort of thing. Wired in to Mr. Gene or own DNA synthesizers and such; simulations are okay, but at this rate it's easier to just grow the damn neurons than build chip fabs.
02:38 < nathan__> okay. So I'm preparing to write a draft outlining this automation business model in the spirit of open source. We can observe 1) What are the most abundant jobs that are solely done by computer that is the easiest to automate/program? 2) When these software packages are sold, how will profits be shared? I'm thinking of a universal stock ownership plan, where profits are allocated equally. To solve the "equal pay for equal work" problem. How might tha
02:38 < kanzure> Cutoff @ "How might tha"
02:40 < nathan__> what computation has been done with neurons in research or in practice? 
02:40 < kanzure> What are you asking?
02:41 < nathan__> have neurons, say in a flask, been used to do calculations?
02:41 < kanzure> yes
02:41 < kanzure> DeMarse, for example, has neurons in a dish flying jets.
02:42 < nathan__> Thomas?
02:42 < kanzure> yes
02:46 < wrldpc> Does anyone have a link to the biomining Cumbers concept?
02:47 < kanzure> No. John's on the diybio mailing list though.
02:47 < kanzure> Once the wiki spontaneously reappears online, I'm sure I can get you a link.
02:51 < nathan__> Hrm. so here's a task profs spend a great deal of time on. Grading papers. Rather than reading paper by paper, if it is the usual Q&A format, the prof could place keywords that identify the right answer, or write the answer into a sentence a few sentences in a manner a student might answer the question, and bewm, put the exames into a printer like device that scans the pages, defines what is right or wrong, and issues a grade, no prof red ink require
02:52 < kanzure> nathan__ Around here, we all have a million and one plus ideas like that. Again, it's not so much the technical idea as it is convincing professors to use that system. (And, by the way, I wouldn't bother with professors like that. Grading via keywords sucks.)
02:56 < nathan__> kanzure: is there language comprehension software that could translate what answer is right or wrong when reading human language?
02:56 < kanzure> No.
02:57 < nathan__> How long would it take with x amount of people, if such a thing could be determined?
02:59 < kanzure> Huh?
03:03 < fenn> to write a natural language processing system? several years with a good team of talented people
03:03 < fenn> but it's one of those black swan AI things anyway
03:06 < nathan__> is there an os sofware with that goal in mind? 
03:06 < kanzure> My recommendation is to avoid.
03:06 < nathan__> aiight.
03:07 < nathan__> kanzure, would you suggest be pursued? 
03:08 < nathan__> [what]
03:09 < kanzure> Some of my work is in big giant number crunching domains .. like automated design via optimization and search algorithms over definable possibility spaces (not natural language stuff). :-) But there's also such things as ecommerce platforms and supply chain tech-upgrades and whatever .. all sorts of things. 
03:09 < kanzure> Anything but AGI/natural-language/intelligence.
03:10 < kanzure> It sounds so contrary, doesn't it.
03:11 < nathan__> well, it needs to be as practical as possible.
03:11 < kanzure> Ah, good.
03:17 < nathan__> first looking to things that work, like search algorithms, measuring task times, productivity enhacement. That's something known to work. Familier with Marshall Brain's Manna? In the novel, he describes a system that tells a human operator how to perform tasks. I know a guy who uses a system like this in warehouse loading. I don't yet know the company that makes the device. That may be a lead... 
03:19 < kanzure> One of the original features of SKDB/OSCOMAK was to output instructions for making parts and systems.
03:21 < fenn> taylor & gilbreth, myeah
03:21 < fenn> minimize therbligs
03:22 < fenn> all well and good for optimizing straightforward problems, but how do you know what data to put into the system so that it can find the path to sidestep the problem entirely?
03:24 < kanzure> I suspect you don't.
03:25 < nathan__> Its systems like these that are bound to meet AGI at the middle. An assistive program could work using search algorithm of previous entries of a user, as in, acting like an assistant: "I see you've entered in these keystrokes thus far. Do you want to do option A) (most frequently executed activity) B) C) ect. 
03:25 < kanzure> How the hell is that AGI?
03:25 < nathan__> its not.
03:26 < nathan__> ignore the first sentence.
03:26 < kanzure> Yeah, so have I told you about the "Semantic Search Facilitator" stuffs? Genetic algorithms on top of the words that you use plus connectivity information from WordNet to help you generate permutations and combinations on your queries to get increasingly more (and perhaps better) results.
03:27 < kanzure> Was meant for my Googling habits.
03:27 < fenn> nathan__: according to raskin, that sort of "adaptive interface" is really hard for humans to work with
03:27 < fenn> because we build habits, and then the machine changes on us suddenly
03:28 < fenn> its like if you staircase decided to have one less step
03:28 < nathan__> kanzure: probably, I just haven't looked into it. 
03:28 < nathan__> have a link?
03:29 < kanzure> Only one, and not really.
03:29 < kanzure> https://www.mit.jyu.fi/agora-center/inbct/InBCT2004/InBCT31/InBCT312_Report_May_2004.ppt
03:29 < kanzure> Even better:
03:29 < kanzure> http://www.cs.jyu.fi/ai/OntoGroup/InBCT_May_2004.html
03:29 < fenn> MIT finland, where do i sign up?
03:30 < kanzure> oh
03:30 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/2008-07-31/ has some related papers.
03:43  * kanzure checks out for the night.
03:45 < Noahj> Goodnight
03:45  * bkero checks in for the night.
03:45 < bkero> Good evening, bellhop.
03:46  * willPow3r wasn't aware that people actually still sleep. this is the 21st century, isn't it?
03:47 < fenn> sir, there seems to be a problem with your luggage
03:47 < fenn> i've sent it down to security for analysis
03:48  * fenn whispers to bkero, "it was ... vibrating"
03:49 < Noahj> Not everyone has enough willPow3r to stay awake. 
03:49 < willPow3r> lol
03:50 < willPow3r> willPow3r comes in pill/powder form
03:50 < willPow3r> also time release capsules
03:50 < fenn> oh, shove it
03:50 < bkero> What
03:50 < fenn> coffee enema
03:52 < willPow3r> cooled down first, one would hope.
03:52 < fenn> 37C is about right
03:52 < willPow3r> 98C water up one's anus would not be entirely pleasant.
03:53 < bkero> Why not?
03:54 < willPow3r> i'm just speculating.
04:03 < bkero> How about a pinecone enema?
04:03 < willPow3r> forward or reverse pinecone orientation?
04:04 < willPow3r> i think spikes-forward would be least damaging
04:04 < fenn> i'm sorry i started this, can we all just go back to being friends?
04:05 < fenn> bkero: still in new yawk?
04:06 < bkero> Yes.
04:07 < bkero> For another couple months I'm afraid.
04:07 < bkero> Unless google sees fit to move me to Mountain View.
04:07 < willPow3r> bkero, have you been to mountain view?
04:07 < bkero> I lived in the bay area for 3 years.
04:07 < bkero> Yes, I've been to Mountain View.
04:08 < bkero> It's preferably to Manhattan IMHO.
04:08 < willPow3r> nice.
04:08 < willPow3r> i didn't really like it there, at least compared to san diego
04:09 < bkero> It's not so bad
04:09 < willPow3r> but i can imagine it being completely different than NY
04:09 < bkero> Once you get used to being another face in the crowd.
04:09 < willPow3r> heh
04:09 < willPow3r> dont you have to drive a prius to live there?
04:09 < bkero> That's a pretty big misconception.
04:10 < willPow3r> about the bay?
04:10 < willPow3r> or ny
04:10 < bkero> You'll get ostracized if you drive something big and shitty for no reason.
04:10 < bkero> And I support that.
04:10 < bkero> In New York you just don't own a car.
04:11 < willPow3r> that seems like such an interesting lifestyle to me
04:11 < willPow3r> not owning a car
04:11 < bkero> I'd rather build a car.
04:11 < bkero> Or ride an electric bicycle. ;)
04:12 < willPow3r> motorcycles are efficient
04:13 < willPow3r> you could also go the jetpack route
04:14 < bkero> Motorcycles are sort of efficient.
04:14 < bkero> Not nearly as efficient as I'd like.
04:14 < bkero> Go look up what the efficiency is on internal combustion engines.
04:14 < willPow3r> pretty low, like 22% or something
04:15 < willPow3r> are they producing hybrid bikes yet?
04:15 < bkero> Uh
04:16 < bkero> The military is making diesel motorcycles
04:16 < bkero> Does that count?
04:16 < willPow3r> not really what i had in mind
04:17 < willPow3r> diesel engines are designed for high-torque applications
04:17 < willPow3r> why are they putting them on bikes?
04:17 < bkero> Yes they are :p
04:17 < bkero> Diesel engines are VERY high torque
04:18 < willPow3r> link?
04:18 < bkero> uh
04:18 < bkero> http://robotics.caltech.edu/~mason/ramblings/dieselTorque.html
04:18 < willPow3r> thx
04:18 < bkero> Higher compression
04:19 < willPow3r> i was looking to see why they're being put on motorcycles.
04:19 < bkero> fuel consumption
04:20 < bkero> 96mpg
04:22 < fenn> a folding electric moped like this would be about right: http://www.coroflot.com/public/individual_set.asp?individual_id=89369&set_id=34598
04:23 < willPow3r> looks like most motorcycles get about half that
04:23 < fenn> motorcycles have terrible gas efficiency for the load they move
04:24 < willPow3r> http://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=6963
04:25 < willPow3r> the honda unicorn gets 129 mpg
04:25 < willPow3r> standard ICE
04:25 < fenn> that looks like my honda from 1982
04:25 < fenn> except the exhaust pipe is black
04:26 < fenn> http://www.motorcycleminnesota.com/110103/10/image1.jpg
04:27 < willPow3r> that's your bike?
04:27 < fenn> same model
04:27 < willPow3r> pretty sweet
04:27 < fenn> i never ride it though so it's a bit dusty :)
04:27 < willPow3r> not your typical rice rocket
04:47 -!- percent is now known as jihaaaaad
04:54 < ybit> why is there an 'internet on/off' button on the modem
04:54 < ybit> i thought the isp might be having problems, not that kind of problem
04:57 < jihaaaaad> why are you gay
04:58 < jihaaaaad> why
04:58 < jihaaaaad> explain that
04:58 < fenn> an accidental brain imprinting when i was 10
04:58 < jihaaaaad> Well, we knew that
04:58 < jihaaaaad> I was asking ybit
04:58 < fenn> our society has no initiation rituals you see, so it's just left up to chance
04:58 -!- jihaaaaad is now known as percent
04:58 < percent> Just to show my true face.
04:58 -!- percent is now known as jihaaaad
08:00 < UtopiahGHML> SensorWeb 2.0: Service-Oriented Middleware for Heterogeneous Sensor Networks
08:00 < UtopiahGHML> http://www.gridbus.org/sensorweb/SensorWeb2-0_Release_Notes.pdf
08:15 < faceface> kanzure, I just watched your biotech you toob git tutorial
08:15 < faceface> its nice, if only because you list some of the features of the project.
08:43 < jonathan_> i'm looking for mr. bryan
08:44 < jonathan_> bishop
08:44 < jonathan_> and if anyone has successfully installed libsbml on OS/X let me know
08:48 < UtopiahGHML> hi jonathan_ , you could ask kanzure I think he knows him
08:54 < fenn> my sarcasm detector is going off..
08:55 < fenn> jonathan_: you might have better luck in #bioinformatics
08:56 < fenn> bryan seems to be on a standard sleep schedule lately
08:57 < jonathan_> cynics often mistake politeness for sarcasm lol
08:58 < fenn> i'm working on graphing sleep schedules right now: http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/sleepz/test.html
08:58 < fenn> (blue = sleep)
08:58 < UtopiahGHML> fenn: how do you log that?
08:59 < UtopiahGHML> lightbulb sensor? :)
08:59 < fenn> its a text file that i obsessively log every activity in
09:00 < UtopiahGHML> you do it manually?
09:00 < fenn> that's the beginning from 3 years ago, so there's some gaps (wasnt in the habit yet)
09:00 < UtopiahGHML> what's the result? the added value so far?
09:00 < fenn> um, pretty colored boxes arent enough for you?
09:01 < UtopiahGHML> I guess you analyze them
09:01 < fenn> that's what i'm doing right now
09:01 < UtopiahGHML> a friend of mine is working on a personal life logger
09:02 < UtopiahGHML> I guess he'd enjoy seing the result of your work
09:02 < fenn> ok
09:02 < fenn> i was thinking of sending my logs + parser to the supermemo guy
09:02 < jonathan_> if you blur your eyes it looks like the coast of italy
09:03 < fenn> hah
09:03 < UtopiahGHML> with Corsica?
09:03 < UtopiahGHML> need to blur your mind a bit to but... yep i can see it ;)
09:03 < fenn> i'll add a few more months so you can see some trends
09:04 < jonathan_> "Nocturnal bifurcation scheduling yields self-similarity cycles to continental plate techtonics"
09:05 < UtopiahGHML> fenn: and eventually detect patterns and propose improvements, Id totally use that
09:06 < fenn> ok reloadski
09:17 < jonathan_> your circadian rhythm clearly has some drift to it
09:18 < fenn> indeed
09:18 < fenn> hence why i am awake at 5 am
09:18 < jonathan_> try replacing your lightbulbs with full spectrum florescents
09:20 < jonathan_> or get married to an accountant-type
09:20 < fenn> why an accountant?
09:21 < jonathan_> they are very strict schedule types usually
09:21 < jonathan_> and follow rules boringly & rigidly
09:22 < fenn> hm, the period when i'm awake in the daytime was my bike tour
09:22 < jonathan_> or you could get some pet birds.  meh.  100% guaranteed to wake up
09:22 < fenn> i have a couple "pet" roosters
09:22 < fenn> result = i want to kill them, every day
09:23 < fenn> but usually i just go back to sleep
09:38 < UtopiahGHML> best thing to do to sleep well for me : sport 45min per day
09:38 < UtopiahGHML> (before 8pm and light meal in the evening)
12:07 < kanzure> Server randomly cutoff last night.
12:07 < kanzure> Power supply this time.
12:34 < kanzure> http://sl4.org/chat/
12:36 < kanzure> http://transmissionsfrombeyond.com
15:57 < jonathan_> anyone know if a team has ever built "POSaM: a fast, flexible, open-source, inkjet oligonucleotide synthesizer and microarrayer"
16:30 < faceface> jonathan_, sounds good
16:33 < jihaaaad> Sup, gentlemen? 
17:06 < kanzure> http://www.wired.com/techbiz/startups/magazine/16-11/ff_openmanufacturing?currentPage=all
17:06 < kanzure> WTF
17:07 < kanzure> Oh. Just Arduino.
17:09 < kanzure> jonathan_: Those guys have.
17:09 < kanzure> The POSAM guys I mean.
17:09 < kanzure> http://bioinformatics.org/pogo/
17:09 < faceface> I can't get graphviz working under R, can someone plot this graph for me? http://pastebin.com/d7dac2a8b
17:09 < bkero> You crazy fringe scientists.
17:09 < faceface> A B pairs are edges, count(*) is edge weight
17:09 < faceface> I wanted something quick, but Rgraphviz is just a pain
17:09 < bkero> I usually use jpgraph
17:10 < bkero> I hear good things about pygraph though.
17:11  * faceface just needs something quick
17:11 < faceface> i.e. phone a friend ;-)
17:11 < faceface> just wondered if you had the tools
17:11 < faceface> I spent maybe 20 mins trying to get Rgraphviz up, and its finally ready and it segfaults
17:12 < kanzure> What does rgraphviz do?
17:12 < faceface> I could have done it by hand that quickly!
17:12 < kanzure> Why not just call graphviz through the shell?
17:12 < bkero> ?
17:12 < faceface> kanzure, its an R library that provides an API to graphviz
17:12 < faceface> oh...
17:13 < faceface> does it take pairs list as input?
17:13 < faceface> Its such a basic graph format
17:13 < faceface> pple don't support it though
17:14 < faceface> It  reads attributed graph files and  writes drawings. - where is format defined?
17:14 < kanzure> Graphviz can do stuff like a -> b if you want.
17:14 < faceface> kanzure, got an example?
17:14 < kanzure> the format is defined in the grammar files
17:14 < kanzure> uh
17:15 < kanzure> digraph G { \n a -> b [label "hahahah"]; \n b -> c \n }
17:15 < kanzure> uhm, add semicolon after c
17:15 < kanzure> brb
17:15 < faceface> do I have to label all nodes?
17:15 < faceface> OK, I see not
17:16 < faceface> neato my.graph 
17:16 < faceface> Error: Layout was not done.  Missing layout plugins? 
17:16 < faceface> ? 
17:16 < faceface> G2g
17:17 < faceface> thanks for help
17:17 < faceface> sorry for quitting
17:17 < UtopiahGHML> kanzure: any free reliable API/webservice that I could call with graphviz data and get .png or .svg file in return?
17:19 < faceface> export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/graphviz :D
17:19 < faceface> Error: Layout was not done.  Missing layout plugins? 
17:19 < faceface> GAAAA
17:51 < jihaaaad> I think I speak for all hackers when I say: Fucking Turks.
17:56 < bkero> durk durka
17:58 < jihaaaad> Amen.
17:58 < jihaaaad> so
17:59 < jihaaaad> how do i change an electron's spin, guys
18:00 < bkero> Murder John McCain.
18:01 < jihaaaad> hush
18:01 < jihaaaad> theyll hear us
18:01 < jihaaaad> fucktard
18:01 < kanzure> UtopiahGHML: http://bloodgate.com/graph-easy/ gives you PNG.
18:01 < jihaaaad> DUMBASS, I ASKED HOW TO CHANGE THE SPIN OF AN ELECTRON
18:02 < jihaaaad> NOT FOR MORE WEB2.0 SHIT
18:02 < jihaaaad> YOU DONT LISTEN KANZURE
18:02 < jihaaaad> EVER
18:15 < bkero> http://blog.newhumanist.org.uk/2008/10/support-atheist-bus-campaign-and-see.html
18:45 < UtopiahGHML> jihaaaad: do you have e-tourette syndrom?
18:51 < kanzure> ".. bioflocculant produced by nonalgal microbial cultures have been assessed for
18:51 < kanzure> flocculating microalgal cells (Hee-Mock et al., 2001). The bacterium Paenibacillus sp. AM49
18:51 < kanzure> is known to produce a bioflocculant that has proved effective for harvesting Chlorella
18:51 < kanzure> vulgaris (Hee-Mock et al., 2001)."
18:53 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/bioreactor/Harvesting of Chlorella vulgaris using a bioflocculant from Paenibacillus sp. AM49.pdf
18:55 < bkero> What bioflocculant are they using?
18:56 < kanzure> Heh. "Chlorella vulgaris was obtained from the Culture Collection of Algae at the University of Texas at Austin and grown in a modified Chu 13 medium (Yam-aguchi et al. 1987)." <-- Fuck yes.
18:56 < bkero> That your lab?
18:56 < UtopiahGHML> thanks for the link kanzure but Ill probably go for http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/PmGraphViz
18:56 < kanzure> Nope. That's where my lab stole their algae from though.
18:56 < bkero> Ooo
18:56 < kanzure> It means it's down the damn hall.
18:57 < bkero> Are you working with native strains, or something chosen for a certain yield, or engineered?
18:57 < kanzure> It's definitely highly selected.
18:57 < bkero> For yielding what?
18:57 < kanzure> It's living aound a pH of 7.
18:57 < bkero> Methane production?  Oil density?
18:57 < kanzure> High lipid production.
18:58 < kanzure> I have a pptx if you want it.
18:58 < kanzure> But pptx sucks.
18:58 < bkero> I don't have anything that will open pptx
18:58 < kanzure> This has been inhibiting me from reading all of the details, so as you can imagine, ..
18:58 < kanzure> Oh wait. I have something
18:59 < bkero> A shotgun to the face?
19:02 < kanzure> Nah, I installed something last time this came up, and it was working, but generated crappy powerpoints.
19:02 < kanzure> Anyway, it looks like they're testing the biomass clumping efficiency based off of how much the mice weigh.
19:02 < kanzure> After feeding the mice with the bioflocculant+algae solutions.
19:03 < kanzure> Interesting. Don't know why they couldn't at least report seeing clumps under the microscope or what.
19:07 < kanzure> ' Paenibacillus favisporus sp. nov., a xylanolytic bacterium isolated from cow faeces ' well then.
19:14 < kanzure> Too bad calcite isn't a good substitute for calcium chloride as a salt. 
19:14 < kanzure> Heh. Nevermind. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_chloride "  It can be produced directly from limestone, "
19:20 < kanzure> http://chaos.ph.utexas.edu/~abeer/ ' We study experimentally the latent time       development of growth patterns formed by Paenibacillus type-T       bacteria in poor media. We perform quantitative experimental       investigations by analyzing growing complex structures. In particular, we       go beyond the studies of individual colonies and explore colony-colony       interactions (see image below) in order to elucidate long distance signaling and'
19:30 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/Artificial_aging_of_mice.pdf 'Clinical signs of aging verified by morphometrical analysis of brain tissue were observed in young mice 4 months after administration of brain extract from old mice (5 intraperitoneal injections).' <-- Aging is a disease.
19:44 < kanzure> "  Producing the specified 26.2 tons of P. tricornutum biomass annually requires an array of 75 tubular photobioreactors each having a volume of 0.8 m^3."
19:44 < kanzure> delicious
20:31 < UtopiahGHML> someone know a good way to render pages and take screenshots?
20:31 < UtopiahGHML> like some URL2PNG API
20:34 < kanzure> What rendering engine do you want to use?
20:35 < UtopiahGHML> Gecko but actually if I could have all the famous one and compare that would be awesome
20:35 < UtopiahGHML> I could automatize my tests
20:38 < kanzure> I've never had the rendering engines do much good for me.
20:39 -!- splicer_ is now known as Splicer
21:27 < fenn> mmmm algae tofu
21:27 < fenn> calcium chloride derived from seawater is what's used to condense soymilk for pressing into tofu
21:41 < xp_prg> msg nickserv identify password
22:24 < wrldpc> headed to this: http://apps.dfhcc.harvard.edu/calendar/event_view.php?eid=1614&instance=2008-10-21
22:24 < wrldpc> love the tofu
22:25 < bkero> <3 tofu
22:48 < Splicer> looks interesting
22:51 < Splicer> I saw Hefner has only 2 gf:s now. I love the way alpha males get away with that. 
22:59 < bkero> I'd be fine with 1.
23:02 < Splicer> Maybe Hefner has got one of yours
23:02 < kanzure> bkero: Neochloris Oleoabundance
23:03 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/bioreactor/2008-10-21%20Algal%20biomass%20extraction%20presentation.ppt
23:07 < kanzure> The review that Mac linked to: electrophoresis.pdf
23:07 < kanzure> erm
23:08 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/electrophoresis.pdf
23:10 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/Acinetobacter_ADP1.pdf <- Acinetobacter instead of ecoli for diy experimentation
23:17 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/Acinetobacter_instead_of_ecoli.html
23:18 < Splicer> Someone on the diybio thred about that said the main reason diyers are going to go for e-coli is that that's the most well documented cell. They have a valid point. 
23:20 < kanzure> Hrm. I need to come up with some information on filtration techniques.
23:20 < kanzure> fenn: There's a ton o limestone around this area, so I was hoping.
23:20 < kanzure> I used to live a mile away from a limestone mining operation.
23:44 < fenn> they sell cacl2 in 50 pound bags for sidewalk de-icing