--- Day changed Fri Oct 24 2008 00:00 < ybit> but i will definitely have a new laptop coming in less than 2 months 00:01 < bkero> Graphics chips aren't really repairable on laptops 00:01 < bkero> Unless you have an MxM card. 00:03 < kanzure__> http://bloodgate.com/perl/graph/manual/benchmark.html <- Me has to imitate this at some point. 00:07 < kanzure__> I wonder if Graph::Easy works with weird perl objects. 00:07 < pk> you're finding it easy to get funding for a bioreactor? 00:08 < gene_> making a bioreactor is easier than you think PK 00:08 < pk> kanzure was just talking about funding 00:08 < kanzure__> pk: No. I'm referring to his connections. 00:09 < gene_> oh 00:09 < pk> oh, gotcha 00:09 < kanzure__> "I need a $100,000 dollar centrifuge." "Okay Bryan. You'll have it by the end of the week." "WTF?" 00:09 < gene_> wait a minute? we got a centrifuge? 00:10 < gene_> that's very expensive 00:10 < kanzure__> No. 00:10 < gene_> why the heck would we need an $100k centrifuge for? 00:11 < kanzure__> I said we don't. 00:11 < gene_> making nukes/ 00:11 < kanzure__> Real men make nukes by using their mouths as centrifuges for uranium. Radiation poisoning be damned. 00:12 < gene_> radiation poisoning isn't so much a concern as uranium poisoning 00:12 < gene_> uranium acts like lead 00:12 < gene_> chemically 00:13 < gene_> so do any of those scifi stories you read feature hovering things? 00:13 < gene_> like inside hovering things 00:13 < gene_> things that hover inside a building 00:15 < gene_> what's something from a scifi novel that hovers and would be cool to build? 00:19 < bkero> landspeeder :P 00:23 < kanzure__> Giro. 00:25 < gene_> giro? 00:26 < gene_> I am thinking of stuff that hovers inside building 00:26 < gene_> s 00:28 < kanzure__> Giru. 00:30 < gene_> I am not familiar with the term Giru, do you mean robot from Dragon ball? 00:32 < gene_> I think 1950s scifi levitating furniture and tables 'might' be possible 00:32 < gene_> lamps at the very least 00:34 < gene_> or maybe walls of floating aerostats 01:27 < kanzure__> use Graph::Easy; use Graph::Easy::Parser; $parser = Graph::Easy::Parser->new(); $graph = $parser->from_file("my.dot"); foreach my $node (@nodes) { $graph->del_node($node); print "Size of graph: ", scalar $graph->nodes(), "\n"; } 01:28 < kanzure__> Before the foreach, add: @nodes = $graph->nodes(); 01:29 < xp_prg> kanzure__ that is perl is it not? 01:30 < kanzure__> Perl. 01:30 < kanzure__> Now, can anybody tell me why it doesn't delete nodes from the graph? 01:30 < kanzure__> Ah crap. 01:30 < kanzure__> Nevermind. 01:34 < kanzure__> That's not a good representation of the code that I'm working with really. 01:35 < xp_prg> are you reverse engineering the interface1.php stuff? 01:35 < kanzure__> No. 01:37 < xp_prg> then what are you doing? 01:38 < kanzure__> Generating a few thousand grammar rules re: the transformation of function structures into component flow diagrams. 01:38 < PeerInfinity> sounds like fun :) 01:41 < kanzure__> Much of my time is spent debugging recursions. 01:41 < PeerInfinity> 03:20 < wrldpc2> Maybe you guys can help me ... 03:21 < wrldpc2> I read some paper SOMEWHERE about how, yes people have control of their brains. 03:22 < wrldpc2> It was related to Beuragard 03:22 < wrldpc2> sp? 03:34 < kanzure> Hello. 03:38 < wrldpc2> I got it: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026793.000-creationists-declare-war-over-the-brain.html 03:42 < kanzure> So. 03:42 < kanzure> This is weird. 03:42 < kanzure> "kanzure_ joined #hplusroadmap" 03:43 < kanzure> I count only two machines with irssi running. 03:43 < kanzure_> Oh. 03:43 < kanzure> Weird. 03:43 < kanzure_> How did this happen? 03:43 < kanzure> 'irssi' has decided to sign me in with two nicks. 03:46 < wrldpc2> bizah 03:54 < kanzure> Anyway. Server should be back up. 04:00 < gene_> hey does anyone here know about processing? 04:00 < kanzure> The java nonsense? 04:00 < gene_> yeah 04:00 < gene_> the java nonsense 04:00 < kanzure> I know about it. 04:00 < gene_> and how to get it to work on windows 04:01 < gene_> apparently it's great for messing around with vision algorithms in 04:02 < xp_prg> anyone here? 04:02 < kanzure> xp_prg: Server is back up. 04:03 < xp_prg> cool! 04:03 < gene_> so I downloaded processing now what? 04:03 < kanzure> apt-get install processing 04:03 < kanzure> Oh right, windows. Nobody dishes out free support for Windows these days :-). Try looking for a crappy tutorial on Google. 04:03 < gene_> damn it 04:04 < xp_prg> kanzure can I please have your help for a minute? 04:04 < kanzure> About what? 04:04 < xp_prg> I am trying to figure out what parts go with promoter, rbs, etc... can you help me to know this a little bit? 04:04 < kanzure> No. 04:04 < xp_prg> how come? 04:04 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/biobricks/categories/ 04:05 < xp_prg> that page is not coming up 04:05 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/biobricks/types/ 04:05 < xp_prg> not coming up man 04:05 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/biobricks/cats/ 04:06 < kanzure> Whether or not you know the types doesn't tell you how to generate the SBML format. 04:09 < gene_> what makes a SBML file so special anyway? 04:10 < kanzure> Think of it as SLDPRT. 04:11 < gene_> SLDPRT? 04:11 < kanzure> You were talking about it the other day, yes. 04:11 < gene_> solidwarks file? 04:11 < kanzure> Yes. 04:11 < kanzure> CAD. 04:11 < gene_> ok 04:11 < kanzure> The synthetic biology design tool would be designing synthetic biological equivalents of "CAD files" like SLDPART .. thought this would be more obvious .. 04:11 < gene_> oh 04:11 < gene_> I get it 04:12 < gene_> is it easy to edit in text editor? 04:12 < kanzure> it's an ML, so yes, but you shouldn't. 04:12 < gene_> oh come one 04:12 < gene_> on 04:12 < kanzure> You really want to memorize the entire NCBI database collection? 04:13 < gene_> you got me there 04:13 < bkero> I want to grab it and run statistical analysis on it 04:13 < gene_> I would if I could 04:13 < kanzure> bkero: I want to grab it because I'm just that crazy :-) 04:13 < bkero> Me too :) 04:13 < bkero> Statistical analysis 04:13 < kanzure> It's pretty cool to be able to say that you've pirated human genomes before. 04:14 < kanzure> (And no, it's not rape.) 04:14 < gene_> maybe just fun proteins like GFP, metal binding proteins, proprietary stuff 04:14 < gene_> still we need a private source in order to compile pirated copies 04:14 < kanzure> What? 04:14 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Artificial_wombs 04:15 < kanzure> ivf links blah blah blah 04:15 < gene_> hurry up and read the diamond age already 04:15 < gene_> what I am saying is that we need our own DNA synthesizer 04:15 < kanzure> So what? 04:15 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/DNA_synthesizer 04:15 < kanzure> You know I'm already on that .. 04:16 < gene_> can you do the entire thing in microfluidics? 04:16 < kanzure> No. You need chemicals. 04:16 < gene_> that's what I mean 04:16 < gene_> no valves or anything 04:16 < kanzure> Yes, you need fluids. 04:17 < gene_> just fluidics 04:17 < gene_> and maybe an output control pump 04:17 < kanzure> Why a pump? 04:17 < kanzure> What are you talking about? 04:17 < kanzure> Just go make http://bioinformatics.org/pogo/ and maybe improve later. :) 04:17 < gene_> you need to be able to choose the next nucleotide don't you? 04:18 < kanzure> What does that have to do with pumping? 04:18 < gene_> we don't have special polymerase yet 04:18 < kanzure> That's the other version. Don't get them confused. 04:18 < gene_> ok 04:19 < gene_> you know, we might be able to use an inkjet printer to do this 04:19 < gene_> an epson inkjet printer 04:19 < kanzure> That's not the difficult part .. it's the specialty chemicals. 04:20 < gene_> like? 04:20 < kanzure> Go look at the wiki page. There's a full list of all of the requirements for oligonucleotide synthesis. 04:21 < gene_> anyway how many nucleotides can the POSAM synthesize 04:22 < gene_> damn Kanzure, your website's one of the top results for inkjet dna synthesizer 04:22 < gene_> your under kurzweil though 04:22 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/webalizer/ <- Old information about hits. 04:22 < kanzure> Let me go recompile that data set. 04:23 < gene_> so how many nucleotides can posam do? 04:23 < gene_> enough for funstuff? 04:24 < kanzure> Ligation. 04:24 < gene_> 25bases 04:25 < gene_> how do you do ligation? 04:25 < kanzure> More specialty chemicals. 04:25 < gene_> is it like what deinococcus does? 04:26 < kanzure> Deinoccus does many things. 04:27 < gene_> ie in ligation do you glue randomely or match pairs? 04:27 < gene_> dang it 04:27 < gene_> POSAM requires a special epson print head 04:27 < gene_> and ball screws 04:28 < gene_> hmm... 04:28 < gene_> wonder if air bearings might work 04:29 < gene_> well we might not need that much accuracy anyway 04:30 < PeerInfinity> bye 04:31 < gene_> whoa, posam is a lot more complicated than I though 04:33 < gene_> is Oligosynthesis really sensitive to oxygen and/or solvents 04:33 < gene_> solvents as in solvents that might be present in plastics 04:35 < gene_> I also don't think I can get the utilities to hook up a high purity nitrogen line to my house 04:38 < kanzure> gene_: There's a new theoretical computational neuroscience class that they are offering next semester. 04:39 < gene_> cool 04:39 < gene_> I'm taking differential equations 04:39 < gene_> I'm not sure that I have time for leisure classes 04:42 < gene_> interesting 04:42 < gene_> they used activated charcoal from a pet store as part of the filter 04:44 < gene_> so what does it take to do ligation kanzure? 04:44 < gene_> do you have any papers on it 04:44 < procto> kanzure: you're at utex austin, right? 04:44 < kanzure> procto: Yes. 04:44 < kanzure> gene_: Somewhere in the biotech repository. 04:44 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/gitweb.cgi 04:44 < kanzure> Also, I gave out a link to a better version a few days ago 04:44 < kanzure> I mean, a quicker version 04:44 < kanzure> http;//heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ellingtonia/ 04:44 < kanzure> Not better at all. 04:45 < gene_> you need a better user interface 04:47 < kanzure> You were saying the other day that we didn't need ui. 04:48 < gene_> NCBI doesn't have a pretty user interface 04:48 < gene_> but it is easy to use 04:49 < kanzure> It has a stupid interface. 04:49 < kanzure> Why HTTP of all things? 04:49 < kanzure> Luckily, they also provide FTP. 04:50 < gene_> ok 04:50 < fenn> you're stupid kanzure 04:50 < gene_> I am not a programmer 04:50 < fenn> http > FTP 04:51 < procto> or maybe it's simply that 04:51 < kanzure> fenn: not when you use it wrong 04:51 < procto> http != ftp 04:51 < fenn> you know, science citation index just recognizes good memes 04:51 < gene_> kanzure likes to have all the information on his computer 04:52 < procto> they have different uses 04:52 < kanzure> gasp 04:52 < procto> switch your use case, and your tools will change 04:52 < fenn> but http can cover all of the functions of ftp 04:52 < kanzure> Nonsense! 04:52 < procto> fenn: and vice versa 04:52 < kanzure> fenn: http gives people incentive to think in HTMLy terms 04:52 < kanzure> actually, I can't complain about NCBI specifically 04:52 < kanzure> They seem to have actual gurus behind that operation. 04:52 < kanzure> Don't know how they organize all of that with so many universities. 04:52 < procto> kanzure, of course, has an incredibly esoteric and idosyncratic usage scenario, for, well, everything 04:53 < kanzure> and institutions etc. 04:53 < gene_> this conversation seems to have devolved into a programming argument 04:53 < procto> programming? no, architecture 04:53 < gene_> DNA is ligated with T4 ligase 04:53 < gene_> which comes from T4 bacteriophage 04:53 < gene_> now that might be useful 04:53 < kanzure> Architecture is very important. 04:54 < kanzure> Sometimes more important than the minor details. 04:54 < procto> indeed it is 04:54 < kanzure> *cough* lesson *cough* 04:54 < procto> well, not sometimes, always 04:54 < procto> by definition 04:54 < gene_> are you guys talking about voodoo? 04:54 < procto> hoodoo, yes 04:55 < procto> you need to engineer chickens with hypermobile necks 04:55 < gene_> http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/genetics/biotech/enzymes/ligation.html 04:55 < procto> then we can wring their necks without killing them 04:55 < procto> reusable voodoo chickens 04:56 < procto> for the squeamish sorcerer 04:56 < kanzure> Now it's devolved. 04:56 < kanzure> Hi fenn. 04:56 < fenn> good morning 04:57 < kanzure> Meet with Narsi tomorrow. 04:57 < gene_> who is Narsi and who want to go visit a slaughterhouse? 04:57 < gene_> http://www.jbc.org/cgi/content/abstract/261/15/6888 04:58 < kanzure> Narsi is open source algae bioreactor man. 04:58 < procto> oh cool 04:58 < bkero> :) 04:58 < procto> kanzure: link? 04:58 < bkero> I do 04:58 < kanzure> procto: I think I'm the link. :( 04:58 * kanzure becomes a link. 04:58 < bkero> I advise an algae bioreactor project in Eugene. 04:58 < kanzure> Eugene? 04:58 < procto> kanzure: I was asking about utex because I had just read that they had a spiruline culture they would send 04:59 < bkero> They're using it to generate methane 04:59 < fenn> i want to share this image i just found: http://a576.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/14/l_6e45b8d7285325d29dd9ae0e733e7017.jpg 04:59 < kanzure> http://utex.org/ 04:59 < kanzure> fenn: How do I copy likns in irssi? 04:59 < kanzure> *links 04:59 < bkero> just highlight them with your mouse 04:59 < kanzure> mouse? 04:59 < bkero> and right-click in the url bar 04:59 < kanzure> Foolish mortals! 04:59 < bkero> or rather, middle-click in the url bar 04:59 < fenn> i use mouse :( 05:00 < kanzure> I've switched back to the server for the time being. 05:00 < bkero> It's more of a 'your terminal' thing than an irssi thing 05:00 < kanzure> Right. 05:00 < fenn> xterm has been properly cursed so that double click properly highlights the whole url 05:00 < kanzure> Not xterm. 05:00 < kanzure> I'm straight up tty3 or something. 05:00 < bkero> lol 05:01 < bkero> My xterm just highlights a word on doubleclick 05:01 < fenn> gpm 05:01 < bkero> tripleclick highlights a line 05:01 < fenn> bkero: you need some ridiculous string in .xtermrc 05:01 < bkero> lol 05:01 < procto> now, sleep time 05:01 < procto> good night 05:01 < gene_> sleep is for slackers! 05:02 < kanzure> This guy is coming in from India to meet with me. 05:02 < kanzure> Sleep is for the weak! Death for the hopeless! Fight entropy, begin doing nothing _today_. 05:02 < bkero> wow 05:02 < kanzure> wait, wait 05:02 < fenn> in .Xresources: XTerm*charClass: 33:48,36-47:48,58-59:48,61:48,63-64:48,95:48,126:48 05:02 < bkero> That's dirty 05:02 < fenn> it doesnt hilight ()'s which i dont yet know is a good or bad thing 05:02 < fenn> or url after # mark 05:02 < kanzure> List of ascii keycodes? 05:02 < fenn> i guess 05:03 * kanzure frowns at how his hit rate has gone down. 05:03 < bkero> Still highlighing snigle words for me, even in new xterms 05:03 < bkero> kanzure: get /.ed 05:04 < kanzure> bkero: http://slashdot.org/~the_kanzure <- Rawr. 05:05 < kanzure> At one point I was solid 5's. 05:05 < bkero> lol 05:07 < gene_> silly fool 05:07 < gene_> I always get fives 05:07 < kanzure> Link? 05:08 < gene_> where on slashdot do I go to see that 05:09 < gene_> ok almost always get fives 05:10 < bkero> I get fives on IRC :) 05:10 < kanzure> Well, you admin nodes, so. 05:10 < gene_> http://slashdot.org/~Plazmid 05:10 < fenn> bkero: you have to xrdb -merge ~/.Xresources (put that in your .bashrc) 05:11 < gene_> anyway I don't post to slashdot that often 05:12 < bkero> works, sweet 05:16 < gene_> kanzure how do i use your damn database 05:16 < kanzure> Which one? :) 05:16 < gene_> bio 05:16 < kanzure> The git repository? 05:17 < gene_> whichever one finds me microfluidic dna synthesizers 05:17 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ellingtonia/biotech/ is a link to an HTTP index of the files. http://heybryan.org/gitweb.cgi is a CGI interface to the git repo. http://heybryan.org/biotech.git is the repo itself. 05:19 < gene_> dang I just found a source for 35% H2O2 05:22 < gene_> and that we might run into problems obtaining an integral component for DNA synthesis because of the DEA 05:23 < gene_> but we might be able to make it ourselves 05:23 < gene_> Kanzure do you know what THE GOLDEN BOOK OF CHEMISTRY EXPERIMENTS is? 05:23 < kanzure> Yes. 05:24 < kanzure> Hrm. 05:24 < gene_> you want it? 05:24 < kanzure> I should put up my book collection. 05:24 < kanzure> No. I have it. 05:24 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/ebooks/bookwarez/The_Golden_Book_of_Chemistry_Experiments_-_R._Brent_WW.pdf 05:24 < gene_> ok 05:24 < gene_> damn 05:24 < kanzure> No fair. 05:24 < fenn> wah :P 05:24 < gene_> wrong reaction 05:24 < kanzure> :( fenn got to it first 05:25 < fenn> apparently a chemistry teacher at my high school was killed (in the 1980's) when he tried to open a glass peroxide bottle with a pair of vise grips. (the cap was rusted on) 05:26 < fenn> i'm probably misremembering several details 05:26 < gene_> ouch 05:27 < gene_> wait a minute, it had a metal cap? 05:27 < fenn> yeah 05:27 < gene_> that doesn't make sense 05:27 < fenn> and perhaps because of things like this they now have plastic caps 05:27 < gene_> no, metals tend to break down H2O2 05:29 < gene_> I' 05:29 < gene_> it would make more sense if it was a glass cap and the vise grips where a bit rusted 05:30 < gene_> heck, probably giving hydrogen peroxide a wrong look might cause it to break down 05:30 < fenn> hmm one would hope the paper "Bottle explosion following catalytic dissolution of hydrogen peroxide" would provide some insight, but alas 05:31 < gene_> you know it is fairly simple to purify hydrogen peroxide? 05:32 < gene_> it's too simple 05:32 < fenn> just distill it 05:32 < gene_> nope 05:32 < gene_> too dangerous and hard 05:33 < gene_> for the amateur at least 05:34 < fenn> http://www.tecaeromex.com/ingles/destilai.html 05:34 < kanzure> Okay. 05:34 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/chem/ 05:35 < gene_> still haven't guessed it 05:35 < gene_> so don't 05:35 < fenn> guessed what? 05:38 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/bio/ 05:38 < gene_> dang 05:38 < gene_> the golden book doesn't have any reactions for making acetic anhydride 05:39 < gene_> a hard to obtain chemical 05:39 < fenn> hot damn i was going to make this program but someone already did: http://www.liquidpcb.org/ 05:41 < gene_> dang it 05:42 < gene_> microfluidic dna synthesizers need to be solvent resistant 05:42 < gene_> which means they need to be made with PTFE 05:43 < fenn> or glass 05:43 < gene_> which means they need to be made with Hot embossing 05:43 < gene_> damn 05:43 < fenn> or silicone 05:43 < gene_> got me there 05:43 < gene_> good 05:43 < gene_> excellent 05:43 < gene_> silicone might not be practical though 05:44 < gene_> but it can be made with shrinky dinks 05:50 < gene_> so kanzure what do you do about argon in the biohacking toolkit? 05:51 < gene_> you can't synthesize argon 05:52 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/Feynman/ 05:52 < kanzure> B2B auto procurement of argon. 05:52 < kanzure> Too bad everyone sucks. 05:53 < gene_> explain 05:53 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B2B 05:54 < kanzure> Protocols for business servers to communicate in trade/auctions, etc. 05:54 < gene_> huh? 05:54 < gene_> you buy the argon? 05:54 < kanzure> Not with money though. 05:54 < gene_> not mine it from the air? 05:54 < gene_> with? 05:55 < kanzure> I'd have to look at the maps. 05:55 < kanzure> Anyway, specifically in the kit, the thing to do about argon is the retarded polymerase, maybe. 05:56 < kanzure> I also am pretty sure that any inert gas would work for the vacuum that they wanted for POSAM. 05:56 < gene_> hmm... 05:56 < gene_> wonder if you can make helium with an electric eel cell powered fusor... 06:08 < gene_> ponder this 06:08 < gene_> http://www.trnmag.com/Stories/2002/100202/Integrated_biochips_debut_100202.html 08:17 < fenn> rubber microfluidic chip sounds like a good place to use piezo actuators 08:54 < UtopiahGHML> anybody good with ancient greek or Thyucydides' philosophy? 08:59 < UtopiahGHML> in french it's "Il faut choisir : se reposer ou etre libre." 08:59 < UtopiahGHML> that goes a bit like "A choice has to be made : rest or be free." 09:00 < UtopiahGHML> but Id like the original version and real English version, not my lousy translation. 10:35 < faceface> me no good with language 10:36 < faceface> is there a transhumanist degree course anywhere? 10:36 < faceface> can we organise one? 10:39 < UtopiahGHML> a degree?! 10:39 < UtopiahGHML> are you serious 10:41 < UtopiahGHML> sorry, let's try 10:41 < UtopiahGHML> what would we the core of the classes? like the notions to master 10:41 < UtopiahGHML> how would your organize the basics of the ideal transhumanist degree? 10:49 < fenn> oh it's quite straightforward: cybernetics, genetic engineering, neurology, aero engineering, instrumentation, human machine interface.. that ought to cover most of it 10:50 < UtopiahGHML> the core 10:50 < UtopiahGHML> what do you think would be the strict minimum? 10:51 < faceface> UtopiahGHML, see kanzures biohacking stuff 10:51 < faceface> I just walked past a poser about the mechanics of tying synthetic muscle to bone, and I thought that this should be part of a degree course 10:51 < faceface> human machine interface 10:51 < fenn> um, well, i suppose you could split it up into three areas of focus: wearable vs implant vs engineered-human 10:52 < UtopiahGHML> do we have a wiki to design this and add links to what we think should be the required materials (books, videos, thesis)? 10:52 < UtopiahGHML> what I mean is listing topics or area is somewhat easy but ordering them by importance and ordered by steps of the learning process is harder IMHO 10:53 < fenn> pff "ordered by steps of learning process" 10:53 < faceface> I thought kanzure__ had somethign like this 10:53 < faceface> somewhere 10:53 < faceface> yup, lets define the modules and plan the years 10:53 < faceface> we can build around the standard modules that a university has too 10:54 < faceface> like cs modules, bio modules, phys modules... 10:54 < UtopiahGHML> faceface: wikiversity 10:54 < faceface> lets do it! 10:54 < UtopiahGHML> :) 10:54 < UtopiahGHML> http://en.wikiversity.org/ 10:54 * fenn bets 9000 whuffie that name is already taken 10:54 < UtopiahGHML> it's not "taken" it exists. 10:54 < faceface> no, we can design a new degree using wikiversity 10:54 < UtopiahGHML> yes 10:54 < UtopiahGHML> that's what I meant 10:55 < faceface> lets do it! 10:57 * fenn notes that most famous "transhumanists" are actually futurists 10:57 < UtopiahGHML> target audience? what degree? NS? 10:57 < UtopiahGHML> Bach?MS?PhD? 10:58 < fenn> right, well, while you guys are off doing all this education stuff, i'm going to watch some anime 10:58 < fenn> and maybe someone will save the world 10:58 < fenn> or whatever it is we're trying to do here 10:59 < UtopiahGHML> GITS as required material for a course ;) 10:59 < fenn> media appreciation 10:59 < UtopiahGHML> "communication of ideas" class 10:59 < UtopiahGHML> how to translate a concept for the public 11:00 < fenn> even ghost in the shell is a poor example of an ideal 11:00 < UtopiahGHML> an ideal? 11:00 < faceface> UtopiahGHML, I was thinking batchelors, a 3 year course (including futureism) 11:00 < fenn> it's not exactly a happy future 11:00 < faceface> we can nick from various masters courses in futurism, synth-biology 11:01 < UtopiahGHML> Cyberpunk is often dystopian... 11:01 < faceface> fenn, seen ghost in the shell series 2? 11:01 < fenn> no 11:01 < faceface> ITS FRIKIN AWESOME! 11:01 < fenn> i've only seen the movie and GITS:innocence (the one with the basset hound) 11:01 < faceface> how can I give you 7Gb right now? 11:01 < fenn> er. you can mail me a dvd i guess 11:01 < faceface> fenn, you have seen the worst gits has to offer 11:02 < fenn> yep innocence was pretty bad 11:02 < faceface> the first movie is awesome, the second (innocence) was awefull 11:02 < fenn> the movie was amazing though 11:02 < faceface> yeah 11:02 < faceface> the second series is killer 11:02 < faceface> what is the future of data transmission? 11:02 < faceface> (other than mailing disks / dna?) 11:03 < fenn> infrastructure? 11:03 < faceface> yeah 11:03 < fenn> probably spread spectrum laser 11:03 < faceface> and fibers? 11:03 < fenn> fiber is good but expensive for hooking up your toaster 11:03 < faceface> how do we get wired up? 11:03 < faceface> is this satelite to satelite ? 11:04 < fenn> and it snags on branches and stuff when you're prancing through the forest :) 11:04 < faceface> so your lazers are wireless? 11:04 < fenn> no fool! you have a little camera/transmitter thing that sits on your glasses 11:04 < fenn> it's powered by your body area network 11:04 < UtopiahGHML> Wimax/P2PWifi 11:04 * fenn slumps 11:04 < faceface> oh... how fast can I send you 7Gb using this? 11:05 < UtopiahGHML> use BT... 11:05 < fenn> yes of course you'll have RF transmitter for backup when out of line of sight 11:05 < UtopiahGHML> makes no sense to transfer by P2P sth that swarms already have. 11:05 < faceface> fenn, use BT 11:05 < UtopiahGHML> (I mean 1on1 P2P...) 11:06 < fenn> dear lazyweb, please point me to a torrent i can click on 11:06 < UtopiahGHML> isohunt.com 11:06 < fenn> um, and why is it 7GB? 11:06 < fenn> nevermind 11:08 < UtopiahGHML> (AFAIR boxtorrents.com is dedicated to anime) 11:08 < faceface> fenn, the second series of GITS 11:08 < faceface> its ~ 7Gb 11:09 < UtopiahGHML> faceface: are you editing a page right now? 11:09 < UtopiahGHML> for the cursus 12:01 < faceface> no 13:51 < UtopiahGHML> faceface: ttp://www.transhumanisme.nl/node/9 13:52 < UtopiahGHML> # Year 1: Transhumanism and Human Nature 13:52 < UtopiahGHML> # Year 2: Environmental Impact of Transhumanism 13:52 < UtopiahGHML> # Year 3: Social and Legal Implications of Transhumanism 13:52 < UtopiahGHML> # Year 4: Transhumanism as Secularized Eschatology 13:54 < UtopiahGHML> Eschatology (from the Greek ......., Eschatos meaning "last" and -logy meaning "the study of") is a part of theology and philosophy concerned with what is believed to be the final events in the history of the world, or the ultimate destiny of humanity, commonly referred to as the end of the world. (Wikipedia) 14:33 < kanzure> yay alarm clocks 14:33 < kanzure> This sleep thing isn't working out for me. 14:37 < kanzure> re: Transhuman Tech degree program, I think Utopiah was thinking of http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap maybe 14:37 * kanzure runs 14:49 * UtopiahGHML just created a meta-ToDo node... not sure it's such a good idea ;) 14:55 < UtopiahGHML> who was talking about SCRUM sometime ago? 16:00 < kanzure__> Hrm. I might have done a bad thing. 16:00 < kanzure__> Bioreactor group is led by somebody who used to work for Monsanto. 16:00 < kanzure__> Isn't that sorta unforgivable? Like working for Microsoft? 16:00 < kanzure__> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_Canada_Inc._v._Schmeiser 16:18 < bkero> My friend just applied for a job at Monsanto. 16:18 < bkero> Biochem position 16:26 < kanzure__> Pure evil? 16:27 < bkero> I asked him if he didn't have any problem with them, and he said that he knows more about GM food than hippies. 16:27 < UtopiahGHML> :/ 16:27 < bkero> Then I told him I was referring to Monsanto's business practices, and not GM food. He didn't respond. 16:28 < UtopiahGHML> it's not about the quality the research of the product they do, like Microsoft 16:28 < UtopiahGHML> it's about the dependency their business model enforce. 16:28 < UtopiahGHML> they trap consumers in their system. 16:28 < UtopiahGHML> with no possible to turnback. 16:29 < UtopiahGHML> (seeds of sotfware, you do not possess them anymore, it's your mean of production, you're fucked) 16:29 < bkero> Single-yielding plants sort of turn me off. : 16:29 < bkero> Sterilizing the seeds so you have to buy more Monsanto seeds. 16:29 < UtopiahGHML> that's the whole BM. 16:29 < UtopiahGHML> terminator seed I think they called it. 16:30 < UtopiahGHML> I think most people who work for Montsanto are nice 16:30 < UtopiahGHML> in the end it doesn't matter, they still enslave. 16:30 < kanzure__> Dr. Sata is certainly an interesting, nice fellow 16:30 < kanzure__> But I'm starting to see very strong business motivations. 16:30 < kanzure__> I'm actually wondering things like, "wait, is this legal?" 16:31 < UtopiahGHML> being illegale doesn't mean being bad 16:31 < kanzure__> i.e., as an explanation to where all of this money is coming from 16:31 < kanzure__> Of cours.e 16:31 < kanzure__> *Of course. 16:31 < kanzure__> I don't think I care that much, but I would like to know regardless. 16:31 < bkero> Monsanto has an exraordinarily large lobbying group. There's no court in this country for companies like Monsanto. 16:31 < kanzure__> I see. 16:31 < UtopiahGHML> it's a tech and law powerhouse 16:39 < UtopiahGHML> (who have people working or CSR and Greenwashing too...) 16:39 < kanzure__> Anybody want to call protein and protein-membrane interactions. The goal is the design of synthetic biopharmaceutical products, such as antimicrobial peptides. 16:39 < kanzure__> Prof. Kaznessis also directs the University of Minnesota Bioinformatics Summer Institute, a summer undergraduate education program funded by the National Institutes of Health and the National Science Foundation. For more information go to www.bsi.umn.edu. 16:39 < kanzure__> argh 16:39 < kanzure__> Anybody want to call Kaznessis? He isn't responding to me. 16:40 < faceface> monsanto was dubbed 'monster', but they are not that bad. they just tried to make a fast buck from old technology 16:40 < faceface> I think they would be much better if they started again with hindsight (impossible I know) 16:41 < faceface> kanzure__, was the roadmap an overview of H+ topics? 16:45 < kanzure__> faceface: No. Yes. I'm not sure any more. It was more an attempt to lay out areas to explore more thoroughly. Some of the pieces of it go down to details about making the brain implants for instance, but note that it doesn't mention how terribly hard it is to make them do something useful. 16:48 < faceface> I see 16:49 < faceface> I think there is enough primary research out there on enough core H+ concepts to outline a 3 year BSc 16:49 < faceface> quite why I don't know... 16:49 < faceface> I'm not in the business of running degree courses... 16:49 < UtopiahGHML> faceface: didyou see the linked I posted? 16:51 < faceface> I'm such a lazy bastard 16:52 < faceface> what language is that? 16:52 < faceface> its not english! 16:52 < faceface> UtopiahGHML, I thought that was your proposal 16:53 < faceface> Proponents of transhumanism believe that advances in robotics, nanotechnology, artificial intelligence and genomics will liberate humanity from pain and suffering... you could say the same about biologists 16:53 < faceface> (the last part I mean) 16:54 < faceface> I don't see the necessity to tie H+ so closely to a particular overarching philosophical outlook 16:54 < faceface> at base its a bunch of technologies right? 16:55 < faceface> I mean the philosophical aspects are fascinating, like the increasing digitization of the real world and simulation leading to a movement towards extending our consciousness 'online', and those topics could (and should) be covered. 16:56 < faceface> but the details of human computer interface, combined with the detail of tissue engineering, and the detail of AI, these don't need any particular philosophical underpinning other than that of science in general 16:56 < faceface> (I just picked a few 'modules' of H+ at random) 16:59 < UtopiahGHML> I would put : prospective, strategy, innovation management, mathematic modelling, simulation and few directly technical topic of the key trendy areas (bio, info, cogno, nano) 17:00 < UtopiahGHML> and course on how to leverage what you need regarding law, investment, etc 17:00 < faceface> yes 17:01 < faceface> and how to manage learning in rapidly advancing fields 17:01 < UtopiahGHML> cognitive science could help there but it's true, something dedicated to it would be interesting 17:02 < UtopiahGHML> and also a "connect" specific discipline 17:02 < faceface> also some 'history of innovation' would be neat too 17:02 < UtopiahGHML> using cross-domain knowledge and tools. 17:02 < faceface> connect? 17:02 < faceface> yes 17:02 < UtopiahGHML> knowing when to focus and separate but knowing when to catalyze and blend. 17:03 < faceface> ontologies, analogous reasoning, semantic knowledge management, expert systems 17:03 < faceface> 80:20 management? 17:04 < UtopiahGHML> what do call management? human resource? 17:04 < UtopiahGHML> team building? 17:04 < faceface> like project management 17:04 < faceface> specification - development - what is that third thing 17:04 < faceface> testing? 17:04 < UtopiahGHML> I would put that into strategy (like a sub-chapter tactic and human-based tactics) 17:04 < faceface> requirements engineering ... etc. 17:05 < faceface> ok 17:05 < UtopiahGHML> would you like a build a tree of all this on a wikipage? 17:05 < faceface> yes 17:05 < faceface> but I have to og 17:05 < faceface> go 17:05 < faceface> my wife asked me to not spend the weekend with my gf... 17:06 < faceface> (her name for my computer!) 17:06 < UtopiahGHML> so cute 17:06 < faceface> ;-) 17:06 < faceface> see you monday 17:06 < UtopiahGHML> say hi from your gf :P 17:07 < kanzure__> I wonder what I was thinking. 17:07 < kanzure__> "Oh. Sure. 371 factorial rules. No problem." 17:08 < kanzure__> Bahahah. "Number senses". 17:08 < UtopiahGHML> do you guys have memory backtracking tricks? 17:08 < UtopiahGHML> like when you write notes you add the date and the location 17:08 < UtopiahGHML> or when you are having a conversation you make mental notes 17:08 < kanzure__> Yes. 17:08 < kanzure__> ' 17:08 < UtopiahGHML> then use a physical item to remember you need to bounce after this item on that 17:09 < UtopiahGHML> what do you use? 17:09 < kanzure__> Not so much that. 17:09 < kanzure__> No, it's not so much that I use a particular method or trick, but it's kind of like after reading a few thousand papers, you start to be able to remember papers because they follow such a pattern. 17:10 < kanzure__> When I was younger, I would come home from school and write for hours on end the entire day, "line by line" as it were. I could cite to you the patterns on the bricks in the hallways (okay, not really - but I did remember some textures for instance), I would write about which people passed first and then second, but oddly enough I couldn't tell you what was written on the overhead projector. Hrm. 17:14 < kanzure__> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27339516/ Transplanted cornea living for 123 years. 17:14 < kanzure__> I suppose this begs the question of its identity though. Cells die and grow quite frequently. 17:14 < kanzure__> especially over 123 years. 17:14 < kanzure__> Oops. I said "begs the question". Wrong. 18:24 < wrldpc2> For the record GITS 2>GITS 1 18:30 < UtopiahGHML> ping.fm 18:30 < UtopiahGHML> they even provide... a customURL 18:31 < UtopiahGHML> so basically I posted from Gtalk on Facebook and my wiki simultanouesly. 18:31 < UtopiahGHML> so now I can SMS/IM/Twitt/... my wiki :D 18:46 < ppk> howdy 18:47 < bkero> lolgits 21:49 < kanzure__> ping.fm? Hrm. 21:56 < kanzure__> Narsi hasn't called yet. Probably won't happen. Oh well. 22:25 < kanzure__> So for the bioreactor stuff, I fear that it will end up requring a ridiculously fine filter even with bioflocculant-induced coagulation.. 22:43 < wrldpc2> can you guys serve your book collections via torrent? (fenn&bryan) 22:44 < fenn> nope, cant be bothered 22:52 < ppk> book collections? what book collections? 22:52 < ppk> do you have them up, in any format other than a torrent? 23:03 < xp_prg> fenn!!! 23:03 < xp_prg> fenn did you see my biobench app yet? 23:19 < kanzure__> ppk: http://heybryan.org/books/Feynman/ 23:19 < kanzure__> ppk: http://heybryan.org/books/chem/ 23:19 < kanzure__> ppk: http://heybryan.org/books/bio/ 23:22 < xp_prg> fenn hello? 23:31 < kanzure__> This is a 23:31 < kanzure__> crucial distinction which is not always made in discussions of the subject; but, in 23:31 < kanzure__> principle, a truly unified theory cannot come from an act of unification; that is, 23:31 < kanzure__> we cannot, for example, create a truly unified theory simply by combining 23:31 < kanzure__> quantum mechanics and general relativity in a new mathematical superstructure. 23:31 < kanzure__> Such attempts have always failed in the past, and will continue to do so in the 23:31 < kanzure__> future, because the concept of unification as combination is invalid. 23:33 < kanzure__> Nothing is 23:33 < kanzure__> unique among conceptual ideas in being infinitely degenerate (infinitely capable 23:34 < kanzure__> of reinterpretation) and it may be that this infinite degeneracy is the key to an 23:34 < kanzure__> understanding of its special power. 23:34 < ppk> sweet, thanks bryan 23:34 < ppk> pro collection. 23:35 < kanzure__> http://www.worldscibooks.com/phy_etextbook/6544/6544_chap01.pdf 23:35 < kanzure__> ppk: There's more where that came from. I just need to go sorting through the collections. 23:36 * kanzure__ likes that "Zero to Infinity" book. It starts off talking about the universe rewriting itself, i.e. a generative process related to the infinitely degenerate 'nothingness'. 23:43 < kanzure__> Clearly the work of somebody who has spent too much time submitting bug reports to mod_rewrite.