--- Day changed Sun Nov 09 2008 00:17 < fenn> warble 00:29 < kanzure_> A few weeks ago I was playing around with some US govt maps of material resources for North America. I was hoping to overlay this information with the mindat.org rip. It now occurs to me that since this is going to be terrible anyway, it might as well also include a surfraw-like interface to raw materials. 00:39 < willPow3r> kanzure_, i just found ArcGIS in my garage. http://www.esri.com/software/arcgis/ 00:39 < willPow3r> you might find it useful 00:43 < willPow3r> i havent had the chance to play with it yet but it looks pretty neat 00:58 < kanzure_> Huh. http://www.autistics.org/library/inertia.html <- Another good one. 01:09 < kanzure_> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.autism/msg/4e17b031c6858372?pli=1 01:11 < xp_prg> I added a kinetic law, math and parameters to my sbml! 01:13 < kanzure_> You already had that. 01:13 < xp_prg> no I didn't 01:13 < xp_prg> I had a rate law 01:14 < kanzure_> Ah, okay. 01:27 < fenn> kanzure_: the links on inertia are impressive 01:27 < fenn> i even used the same word, "mental inertia" 01:28 * UtopiahGHML did too and thought about cognitive gravity, as in being stuck with a popular thinking model, etc 01:36 < kanzure_> Yes, these models of 'cognitive gravity' have been mentioned by a few other sources as well. If I had my old ADR file, I'd link UtopiahGHML over to the one specifically about 'gravity' and 'the mind' (it was a crank-site, but whatever, these are all analogies anyway). 01:37 < kanzure_> Yes, these models of 'cognitive gravity' have been mentioned by a few other sources as well. If I had my old ADR file, I'd link UtopiahGHML over to the one specifically about 'gravity' and 'the mind' (it was a crank-site, but whatever, these are all analogies anyway). 01:38 -!- Utopiah is now known as UtopiahGHML 01:38 < fenn> usually when the term inertia is used as an analogy, people are talking about group dynamics and how focused a group is on a task 01:39 < fenn> oh well. lots of phenomena are similar mathematically.. electrical inductance for example 01:39 < kanzure_> fenn: Do you remember my ranting about the idea for the 'sustained attention setup' from a while back? I was sort of hoping that it would lead to the development of a mental inertia monitor, or mental acceleraometer (neurobiofeedback), and the gas pedal would be stimulants, either chemical, magnetic, sonic, or in the information interface before the eyes. 01:40 < kanzure_> erm, the chemcials wouldn't be the pedal, they would be what is released by the activation of the pedal 01:40 < fenn> yes, but i thought you were trying to increase your inertia, which didnt seem desirable, so i didnt pay too much attention 01:40 < fenn> (insert vision of bryan surrounded by pizza boxes and computer monitors) 01:40 < kanzure_> oops, is my web cam on? 01:41 < kanzure_> So a distinction between accelerating the focus on a specific task, versus decreasing inertia and the 'resistance to movement/action' 01:42 < kanzure_> I suppose there is a difference. A wearable, portable system might allow for the second, where half of the problem would be the 'mental acceleraometer' and another half an inertial-decrementor. 01:42 < fenn> often my problem is with little things, and so having a mechanism to accelerate focus on that task would get the task done but there would be problems because i'd still be focused on it even though it is complete 01:42 < kanzure_> are these little things predictable 01:43 < fenn> no 01:43 < fenn> responding to an email for example 01:43 < kanzure_> obvious solution would be to have a way to select a 'program' on the eyepiece to have a set 'chemical schedule' for that (which would be great) 01:43 < fenn> i often spend hours on what should be a three liner 01:44 < kanzure_> bleh, emailing could be done in block scheduling of the day-calendar if you were guaranteed some neurobiofeedback that would allow it to actually get done (this hypothetical imagined system) 01:44 < fenn> please explain "neurobiofeedback" 01:44 < kanzure_> randomly replying to email throughout the day would still be an issue. 01:45 < kanzure_> neurobiofeedback is the concept of having some way to measure variables that have some value in predicting attention, focus, movement, or these other issues, and then ways to influence the outcome or functioning of the brain through some input method 01:45 < fenn> fortunately email has the characteristic that all i have to do is press "send" and it's not possible to retract the message and write some more 01:46 < kanzure_> There's no guarantee that any 'real' variables can be found, but on the other hand I've heard of people doing weird things with neurobiofeedback, heart rate control being a simple example (IVF + heart rate monitoring - I think some drugs have some sort of immediate affect on heart rate for instance) 01:47 < kanzure_> or sometimes people finding ways to trigger a decrement or increment in heart rate through some weird thought-pattern that eventually becomes a 'learned skill' or something 01:47 * fenn glances at the empty container of chocolate 01:47 < kanzure_> as an 'addiction', or have you found it serves some use? 01:48 < fenn> increase/decrease heartrate is easy enough, but not exactly reliable 01:48 < fenn> chocolate is more or less an addiction i suppose 01:48 < kanzure_> right, so with neuropsychopharmaceuticals I'd guess that there might be a useful possibility space somewhere. or with rTMS/ultrasonics. 01:49 < kanzure_> I was scarequoting 'addiction' because there's some hardcore addiction physiology out there, and then there's chocolate / insert-your-chocolate-here. 01:49 < fenn> guh.. parse error 01:49 < UtopiahGHML> http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=968605 http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17039252 01:50 < UtopiahGHML> Is cacao a psychotropic drug ? Psychopathological study of self-labeled << chocolate addicts >> Reinforcing effects of caffeine and theobromine as found in chocolate 01:50 < kanzure_> uhm, nevermind on that addiction thing. I don't think it's quite the same as, say, the mechanisms of nicotine addiction 01:50 < fenn> "insert-your-chocolate-here" is poking fun at "addicted to creativity" scare stories right? 01:50 < UtopiahGHML> same mechanism 01:50 < kanzure_> No, I haven't heard those stories. 01:51 < fenn> i forget who was saying djikstra never had a chance because he didnt have any prior warning about computer addiction :) 01:51 < UtopiahGHML> psychotropics 01:51 < UtopiahGHML> and some can be engeneous 01:51 < UtopiahGHML> endo. 01:51 < fenn> UtopiahGHML: of course caffeine is addictive, do we really need "psychopathological studies" on it? 01:51 < kanzure_> Ah, no, I'm not poking fun at psychotropic addicts. There are 'casual users' I guess, which is close, but now I don't really care. 01:52 < UtopiahGHML> fenn: it's because of those "of course" that we need study, ESPECIALLY on addictive topics! 01:52 < kanzure_> fenn: probably the economics of caffeine factor into the motivations for studying it even more 01:52 < fenn> haha my roomate goes through a $10 bag of coffee in two days 01:52 < fenn> she buys coffee instead of food 01:53 < fenn> it's kind of sad really 01:53 < kanzure_> I knew somebody in high school who would do 10 cups a day. Wake at six am, sleep at 4 am. She would just read all night long, do stuff here and there, try to not be bored. 01:53 < UtopiahGHML> still alive? 01:53 < kanzure_> Crazy environmentalist chick. She got me hooked on some Sonata Artica. 01:54 < kanzure_> Sonata Arctica. 01:54 < kanzure_> "I don't come online only once a few weeks because I want to conserve energy." Carpooling (which isn't terrible, but the etiology is), etc. 01:55 < fenn> the quote refers to internet addiction? 01:55 < kanzure_> No, that's what she said to me when I asked why she's online so rarely despite being awake practically always. 01:55 < fenn> carpooling?? 01:56 < UtopiahGHML> if she wants to conserve energy she should suicide... her reasoning lacks coherence. 01:56 < kanzure_> Right, she was using the same origin reasoning as why she doesn't leave a compute ron. 01:56 < fenn> ah "dont ... because i want to conserve energy" made it sound like there was some other reason 01:56 < fenn> such people need to use a calculator 01:57 < UtopiahGHML> or an abacus. 01:57 < kanzure_> Yeah, so I should figure out if she's still alive. 01:57 < fenn> your morning shower uses a month's worth of computer time 01:57 < kanzure_> Heh, abacus :) 01:57 * fenn looks accusingly at UtopiahGHML's space heater 01:57 < UtopiahGHML> fenn: see, here my car-miles-scale would be useful! 01:58 < fenn> yes, if there were a meaningful way of keeping track of energy, not just in terms of joules or whatever, but the "opportunity cost" of that particular form of energy 01:58 < fenn> for example coal is less valuable than smooth 3.3V DC 01:58 < UtopiahGHML> well it has to be just accurate enough to make your point ;) 01:59 < UtopiahGHML> satisficing. 01:59 < kanzure_> Anyway, on the inertia page the author mentions "there is no cure", but on the same page the author also mentions that 'depression might be a cofactor', so I sort of doubt the 1996 author was able, or willing, or looking into pharmaceuticals at all. Or at aspects of the brain and neurons that might be responsible. 02:00 < fenn> depression tends to reduce your willpower 02:00 < fenn> i dont know enough about neuroanatomy to connect that with the pharmaceutical paradigm though 02:01 < kanzure_> I'm pretty sure I'm not depressed. But I could be wrong. 02:01 < UtopiahGHML> =] 02:01 < fenn> and willpower is needed for start/stop or "acceleration" 02:01 < kanzure_> Half of the people that diagnose depression seem to have depression themselves, and then it's this weird fuckfest of projection. 02:01 < UtopiahGHML> Always look at the bright side of life 02:01 < kanzure_> Before you draw your terminal breathe. 02:01 < fenn> hehee 02:02 < UtopiahGHML> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPOzQzk9Qo 02:02 < fenn> kanzure_: most people in industrial nations have depression :\ 02:02 < fenn> i think it's the food 02:02 < UtopiahGHML> I think it's the lack of philosophy. 02:03 < UtopiahGHML> and sport 02:03 < fenn> ugh.. please pick a different word 02:03 < UtopiahGHML> and... healthy lifestile 02:03 < fenn> philosophy == wanking 02:03 < kanzure_> UtopiahGHML: http://heybryan.org/projects/openpay/widget.php?projectID=1 has the same youtube vid I think 02:03 < UtopiahGHML> fenn: is that a philosophical statement? 02:04 < fenn> it's an opinion 02:04 < kanzure_> I do, unfortunately, have family history of depression. 02:04 < UtopiahGHML> me too 02:04 < fenn> UtopiahGHML: i think what you mean is "purpose" not "philosophy" 02:04 < kanzure_> But I'm hardly like the family member with the depression. Oh, there was also another on the other side of the tree, but that was confounded with alcoholism. 02:05 * fenn doesnt know anything about his extended family 02:05 < UtopiahGHML> fenn: if you mean what I think I don't have to do it myself then, Im saving energy too, nice. 02:05 < kanzure_> fenn: Don't they blurt it out at you uncontrollably? 02:06 < kanzure_> Family histories, I mean. 02:06 < fenn> my parents + brother + i were never very close to aunts + uncles + grandparents, partly because of physical distance (spread across entire US) and partly religious/atheist/child-abuse in my parents past 02:07 < fenn> or something like that 02:07 < kanzure_> There's significant distance between me and extended family, but that didn't stop them from showing up at every damned holiday. 02:07 < fenn> so, i didnt go to my grandpa's funeral because it was like.. why should i travel across country for some guy i dont even know? 02:07 < kanzure_> Michigan to Texas. You'd think you could find an excuse with the 9 states in between, but apparently not. 02:09 < kanzure_> fenn: One day in 2007 I found that my grandmother's AIM handle had been signed on for three days. I made a few jokes with some buddies about this and how peculiar it was, even with my father who laughed too, "Geeze, maybe she died." 02:09 < kanzure_> Turns out she did. 02:09 < fenn> weird huh 02:09 < kanzure_> My father and I both basically said "Huh." And moved on. 02:10 < kanzure_> (Ok, not him. He actually flew up to arrange stuff.) 02:10 < fenn> i'm sure i've mentioned the "internet obituary aggregator" before 02:10 < kanzure_> Nope. 02:10 < fenn> well, on many occasions people will just disappear with no explanation for years at a time 02:10 < fenn> it just rankles me that i dont even know if they're dead or not 02:11 < fenn> so there could be some way to automatically notify you if people you know have died 02:11 < fenn> also you could maintain anonymity with some kind of public key infrastructure 02:11 < kanzure_> People disappear from my 'realm' all the time. It's like missing an online buddy. One day they don't sign on. It's the same way with people in person for me. 02:12 < kanzure_> Or one day they don't show up at the same place .. in class. "Has so-and-so died?" 02:12 < fenn> in a physically co-located relationship, you can often get the information from people in the same area 02:12 < fenn> but not so on the net 02:13 < kanzure_> Before I lose inertia on the neurofeedback system stuff once again, hoping for "the all important variables" on a first prototype (like with rTMS with very specific targetted regions of the brain), is a bad strategy. Same with "magic bullet" pharmaceuticals. Same with the stuff on humancortex.html; 02:14 < kanzure_> Something simpler is needed but that would be effective. Something that wouldn't rely on hardcore variables but give the same results. 02:14 < fenn> and, unlike physical posessions, information artifacts such as web pages or software projects never get properly redistributed 02:14 < kanzure_> Oh, I think I just described something impossible. Nevermind. 02:14 < kanzure_> fenn: Tony is big into that particular subset of the problem. 02:15 < kanzure_> He's been noticing that all of his friends are either dead, dying, or in the process of transitioning from missing or sick to 'officially dead', and is wondering wtf to do about all of the wonderful projects. 02:15 < fenn> apparently it's much easier to become a monk or whatever the fuck it is that people do, than to say "hey people take care of this thing i worked on for years ok?: 02:16 < fenn> of course the proper way of dealing with this is to not be a single point of failure in the first place, but somehow this idea hasn't been sufficiently impressed on the minds of the populace 02:16 < kanzure_> Enki's priming stuff (xsublim work) is something I'm sure he'd like to have others keep around, but at the same time it hardly does the neurofeedback stuff that ideally it represents. 02:16 < fenn> but it's not easy anyway, (non spof) so that's why there should be alternatives 02:16 * kanzure_ is still a giant SPOF 02:17 < kanzure_> "We take dead projects." 02:17 < gene_> bring out yer dead! 02:17 < fenn> gene's approach is the right one 02:17 < kanzure_> Tony submitted a youtube video over to Google for their prize thingy, and it was about archives and active community centers for dying projects of that sort. 02:17 < gene_> uh kanzure 02:17 < kanzure_> fenn: Agreed there. 02:18 < UtopiahGHML> night guys 02:18 < gene_> I might try making the filter in the cafeteria 02:18 < fenn> i think sourceforge has saved a large number of projects from death in obscurity after the lead coder lost interest 02:18 < gene_> those biodegradable straws can be thermoformed 02:18 < kanzure_> gene_: You already mentioned that on gchat. Just tell me your method instead of the padding. 02:19 < kanzure_> Thermoformed into shapes? 02:19 < gene_> put straw in hot water 02:19 < fenn> straw = PLA? 02:19 < gene_> bend 02:19 < gene_> you guessed it fenn 02:19 < kanzure_> See. I knew you'd like my straw recommendation :) 02:19 < fenn> how do you make a filter from PLA? 02:19 * kanzure_ notes that he didn't know that gene_ would. 02:19 < gene_> it is a bit hard though because the straws 02:20 < kanzure_> fenn: He's still on about the membraneless filter in a spiral shape. 02:20 < fenn> gene_: do you know what a hilsch vortex tube is? 02:20 < gene_> don't actually melt until 140 deg f 02:20 < gene_> yeah 02:20 < fenn> is this the same mechanism? 02:20 < gene_> it's exactly that fenn 02:20 < gene_> and not that at the same time 02:21 < fenn> ok, close enuf 02:21 < fenn> i did some of that back in my paranoid youth :) 02:21 < gene_> so the straws have shape memory 02:21 < fenn> ORME traps 02:21 < gene_> and return to shape ARG 02:22 < gene_> what the fuck is an ORME trap? 02:22 < gene_> don't tell me it's one of those orgonne box things 02:22 < fenn> might i suggest using PVC and PVC glue, or acrylic and acrylic glue.. 02:22 < gene_> ok 02:22 < fenn> no, not related to orgone, but similar fringe 'invisible all around us' stuff 02:22 < gene_> hahahaha 02:23 < fenn> so some people have hypothesized they are the same thing 02:23 < gene_> I almost bought into that 02:23 < fenn> which? 02:23 < fenn> i'm still not convinced either way, actually 02:23 < gene_> I used to frequent amasci.com 02:23 < gene_> a lot 02:24 < fenn> it makes perfect sense from a physics standpoint 02:24 < fenn> and i got some weird results from tap water and magnets, so.. 02:24 < fenn> so if your algae starts to levitate, it's your filter method :) 02:25 < gene_> fenn I am afraid you must be brainwipped 02:25 < fenn> oh and joe cell is probably the same thing 02:25 < fenn> meh 02:25 < gene_> don't worry you won't feel a thing 02:25 < fenn> please put me to work in a secret gov't lab! 02:25 < gene_> or at least you won't remember the pain 02:26 < fenn> i will scrub the clone tanks, promise 02:26 < fenn> sigh.. i wish 02:27 < gene_> owning a clone farm is a level 10 international ethical offense 02:27 < fenn> reality is probably just so embarrasing they never admit to spending $10b on cat-controlled cruise missiles 02:27 < gene_> why would we 02:27 < kanzure_> cat? 02:27 < gene_> they are quite effective 02:27 < fenn> un-jammable electronics 02:27 < kanzure_> Is that some sort of defective microprocessor, "cat"? 02:27 < fenn> it meows and has fur 02:27 < gene_> no 02:27 < fenn> also they were using homing pigeons and petunias 02:28 < fenn> er, rhododendron 02:28 < fenn> blah 02:28 < gene_> that's how cat 5 cables were really developed 02:28 < fenn> h2g2 has infiltrated my brain 02:28 * kanzure_ pats his h2g2 bible sitting on the shelf 02:29 < gene_> DON'T PANIC 02:29 < gene_> I am debating whether I should put all of wikipedia on my 4 gig DS flashcart 02:29 * kanzure_ was once making a "panic button" for his computer setup. 02:29 < kanzure_> gene_: Wikipedia, in its entirety, is more like 160 GB. 02:29 < gene_> and putting a big red button on it labeled don't panic 02:30 < gene_> you can get a version for ipod that is about 4 gigs 02:30 < fenn> http://www.zazzle.com/petunias_shirt-235406868735707892 02:31 < kanzure_> When the panic button was activated, all of my work would be inserted into JPEG porn files in the comments section and as minute obscurities using some algorithm that I presently forget the name of, and then uploaded to p2p networks, hard drives subsequently wiped, plus an asterisk phone line hookup for remote control via cell phone. How's that for paranoia. 02:31 < fenn> i believe that's the method al-qaeda uses 02:31 < gene_> not very paranoid 02:32 < gene_> if your really paranoid 02:32 < gene_> you build you PC in a rocket 02:32 < fenn> a rocket? what about the lasers? 02:32 < gene_> so that it shoots off into space, the ocean, or switzerland 02:33 < fenn> or all three 02:33 < gene_> or have an acid sprayer in your harddrive 02:33 < fenn> i like patrick stewart's periodic chinese character sign-in method, in that one movie.. sigh 02:33 < kanzure_> 1024-bit RCA encryption with a one-time keypad handed to Adolf Hitler, box physically located under Mount St. Hellen, surrounded by 50 ft of concrete in every direction and an array of UPS and generators that could power a small city for a decade; yes, yes, paranoia always knows its better. 02:34 < kanzure_> *Mt. St. Hellen 02:34 < gene_> uh Kanzure 02:34 < gene_> you didn't clone Hitler did you? 02:34 < kanzure_> I only cloned Jesus. 02:34 < kanzure_> http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://clonejesus.com/ 02:34 < gene_> good 02:35 < gene_> don't ever do that 02:35 < kanzure_> Oh please. 02:35 < gene_> and especially don't ever revive his brain in that cryopreservation facility in the amazon 02:35 < fenn> i thought it was located on the dark side of the moon 02:35 < kanzure_> First, whether or not the clone of Hitler would grow up to be the same Adolf we all know and love is a hard enough task of its own; secondly, whether or not there already exists an Adolf of equal or greater magnitude is unknown too. 02:36 < gene_> that's just where the nazi moon base is 02:37 < gene_> ok 02:37 < kanzure_> Blah. If anyone wonders why my sentences suck so much, it's because in irssi I lose track of what I wrote previously, I'm going somewhere with this, let me send it first to see what I'm saying. ;-) 02:37 < gene_> so Kanzure 02:37 < kanzure_> ? 02:37 < nsh> what happened to "no philosophy"? 02:37 < nsh> :-) 02:38 < gene_> would a fully automatic catapult be cooler than a semiautomatic catapult that launches a bunch of projectiles at once? 02:38 < kanzure_> nsh: re: Hitler? I am pretty sure gene_'s comment about not reviving Hitler was philosophically motivated. Blame him, blame him! 02:38 < kanzure_> gene_: Fully automatic catapult, with reloading and all? Would definitely be more awesome. 02:38 < gene_> philosophically? 02:38 < nsh> ok 02:38 < gene_> yeah 02:39 < gene_> it's the reloading part that is hard 02:39 < kanzure_> However, if by some strange chance we can make it so that kids have to do lots of ridiculous manual labor to load the pigs, then that's another option worth investigating. 02:39 < gene_> especially with our ammo 02:39 < kanzure_> Something cryptic, like solving a decoder ring mystery followed by chasing Lucky down a trail or something retarded. 02:39 < fenn> even better if it worked both ways, like a rotovator.. oh wait! that's why i wanted to go to grad school... *cough* 02:39 < gene_> hmmm... 02:39 < gene_> rotovator 02:39 < gene_> rotation 02:39 < fenn> tether catapult 02:39 < gene_> nope won't work 02:40 < fenn> picks up bags of moon dust and flings it into orbit 02:40 < gene_> my projectile 02:40 < gene_> is plastic pigs 02:40 < fenn> then uses the momentum gained to decelerate an incoming payload 02:40 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/me302/project/ 02:41 < fenn> perhaps you've heard of a trebuchet? this is similar in concept but going at mach 15 02:41 < gene_> I can't think of a way to load one pig at a time 02:41 < fenn> and 100km long 02:41 < gene_> without jams 02:41 < kanzure_> gene_: Just go into the library and fetch a book of schematics/drawings. 02:41 < kanzure_> I actually haven't seen these books before, but I suspect they exist. 02:41 < fenn> put the pigs in standardized containers such as a 5 gal bucket 02:41 < fenn> then eject the "shells" after launching 02:41 < kanzure_> fenn: No, different context. 02:41 < gene_> i've already tried Kmodl 02:42 < kanzure_> fenn: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/me302/project/ 02:42 < fenn> huh? 02:42 < fenn> i cant read any of those files 02:42 < kanzure_> fenn: It's the ME302 reverse engineering project and gene_'s subsequent redesign. 02:42 < kanzure_> fenn: There should be a JPG or PNG there or something that shows a picture of it. 02:42 < gene_> which is going to kickass thank you very much 02:43 < fenn> something wrong with the jpg 02:43 < fenn> you actually have a class on reverse engineering? 02:43 < gene_> believe it! 02:43 < fenn> i must say that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard 02:44 < kanzure_> fenn: I just added another JPG file in there. Try that. 02:44 < gene_> I know it is 02:44 < gene_> I am just a program 02:44 < kanzure_> fenn: yep. 02:44 < kanzure_> first mechanical engineering course is on drawing stuff by hand and reverse engineering. 02:45 < fenn> so instead of teaching you concepts and causing you to form problem solving abilities, they feed you dogma and reward imitation? 02:45 < kanzure_> and the reverse engineering is really just a single team project, not anything really intense (other than the drawing stuff by hand) 02:45 < gene_> yeah 02:45 < gene_> but since I hate dogma 02:45 * fenn mumbles something about taiwan 02:46 < gene_> and have free access to a 3d printer 02:46 < kanzure_> that's why I have so much crap in http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/me302/ :-/ 02:46 < fenn> pff 3d printer 02:46 < fenn> are you going to 3d print a catapult? 02:46 < gene_> I am making(hopefully) a fully automatic catapult 02:46 < gene_> yeah, why not? 02:47 < fenn> don't you think it's a bit large? 02:47 < gene_> no 02:47 < kanzure_> fenn: The idea is for us to model the part into STL files and to email it to the instructor so that he can push it into the queue for the printer 02:47 < kanzure_> fenn: see the JPG I just added to the dir, 02:47 < kanzure_> it's not that large. 02:47 < gene_> ok bye 02:47 < fenn> still downloading 02:47 < fenn> or something 02:48 < kanzure_> yeah it's large. 02:48 < kanzure_> oh crap, abort. You don't like large images, that's right. 02:48 < fenn> i can handle a 1.6MB jpeg 02:48 < fenn> but your upload is like 2kB/s 02:49 < fenn> its the 16000 pixel .png's that screw things up 02:49 < kanzure_> fdjkldajflkajfa; 02:49 < kanzure_> I have my other box wired up at the moment 02:49 < kanzure_> my down from kernel.org is like 2 KB/sec too.. 02:50 < kanzure_> 6000 bytes, my mistake 02:50 < kanzure_> Okay. Should be better now. 02:51 < fenn> nope 02:52 < kanzure_> fenn: And now? 02:52 < kanzure_> I dhclient'ed myself. 02:53 < fenn> er, how am i supposed to be testing? i'm just re-downloading the file 02:53 < kanzure_> well supposedly it's a function of how much you complain 02:53 < gene_> you don't have a very good machine library kanzure 02:53 < kanzure_> also, supposedly you haven't finished the download because it was at 2 kb/sec 02:54 < gene_> though it is cool 02:54 < kanzure_> gene_: What are you talking about? 02:54 < kanzure_> Machine library? 02:54 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/ <- that stuff? 02:54 < fenn> re-partially-downloading then 02:54 < gene_> machine 02:55 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/sldpart_archive/ <- Has some rips of large websites. 02:56 < gene_> nevermind 02:56 < gene_> using kmodl 02:57 < kanzure_> kmoddl? 02:58 < gene_> yeah 02:58 < kanzure_> Is this just an image gallery, or is there some sort of XML or data set? 02:59 < fenn> i believe they had some kind of kinematic description language 02:59 < gene_> it has movies and cad models 02:59 < gene_> all I care about 03:00 < fenn> http://kmoddl.library.cornell.edu/aboutmeta3.php 03:00 < fenn> "simulation" 03:00 < kanzure_> gene_: At some point you are going to fail because one cannot manually process all information. 03:00 < kanzure_> Just saying. 03:00 < gene_> http://kmoddl.library.cornell.edu/resources.php?id=186 03:00 < kanzure_> Modeling information *is* important ;-) 03:01 < kanzure_> Kinematic description language. Excellent. 03:01 < gene_> I am designing something ok 03:01 < kanzure_> ? 03:01 < kanzure_> Are you asking me if I'm okay? 03:03 < fenn> i wonder if i made up the memory that they had a description language 03:03 < gene_> ok 03:03 < kanzure_> It shouldn't be hard to do it. It looks like they have narrowed it down to "200 fundamental motions". 03:03 < fenn> it certainly seems like a straightforward sort of thing 03:03 < fenn> 200! 03:03 < kanzure_> or 200 fundamental mechanisms or whatever 03:03 < gene_> huh? 03:03 < fenn> bah 03:03 < fenn> who cares about mechanisms 03:03 < kanzure_> Well, excuse me, I don't mean to say that 03:04 < fenn> that's like "200 fundamental prime numbers" 03:04 < kanzure_> I don't mean to say they have the 'axioms' 03:04 < kanzure_> yeah 03:04 < kanzure_> wait, what? 03:04 < kanzure_> I'm fairly certain it's a bit more complicated than just a single unit repeated over and over again in different ways 03:04 < kanzure_> I'd be happy if it's not. 03:04 < fenn> i mean mechanisms can be factored and refactored 03:04 < fenn> and there are unique mechanisms that are so complex that nobody has bothered to build them 03:04 < gene_> I do 03:05 < gene_> name one fenn? 03:05 < fenn> and so listing the unfactorable mechanisms is an endless task 03:05 < kanzure_> fenn: Are these .. cross-turtle layer structures? I don't know how to convey this. 03:05 < fenn> aroo? 03:05 < fenn> define "these" 03:05 < kanzure_> and cross-layer would be unfactorable 03:05 < kanzure_> (?) 03:06 < fenn> hmm. kmoddl is just about chunks of solids moving around in various patterns 03:06 < fenn> nothing terribly cross disciplinary about that 03:06 < fenn> unless you make a mechanical computer or something 03:06 < gene_> I've seen one 03:07 < gene_> the diff engine 03:07 < kanzure_> I mean to say that if there's not a single repeating element that makes up all of the elements in their library, then they have been visited by the Complexity Fairy. 03:07 < gene_> I don't care 03:07 < kanzure_> gene_: I'm talking with fenn. 03:07 < fenn> why a single repeating element? 03:07 < gene_> I just want to figure out how to reload plastic pigs into catapult 03:07 < kanzure_> gene_: (just suggesting why you probably don't care) 03:07 < fenn> a spring is not a bearing? 03:08 < gene_> it can be 03:08 < kanzure_> fenn: yes, so if it boils down to a set of principle mathematical equations for the motions 03:08 < gene_> but i don't recommend it 03:08 < kanzure_> then there we go. Otherwise it's mysterious and odd. 03:08 < kanzure_> in the bad sort of way. 03:08 < kanzure_> A spring can be easily mathematically modeled :), and I don't recall barings actually 03:09 < fenn> uh. hrmm. i know stewart platforms (hexapods) are usually solved iterative/numerically, but i dont know if there exists an analytical solution or not 03:09 < kanzure_> This would be a good example of graphsynth/that-set-of-work because if given a set of elements, even just equations, that can be put together to make a certain type of physically moving system, then 03:09 < kanzure_> cariographical descriptions can be matched to the underlying 'genomes' 03:09 < fenn> sure, a kinematic network 03:10 < gene_> there exist weird solutions 03:10 < fenn> cariographical? 03:10 < kanzure_> gene_: Yep, always, in graphsynth there's weird solutions. A meat slicer crossed with a bazooka. 03:10 < kanzure_> fenn: Coriographical? 03:10 < kanzure_> kinematical is better. 03:10 < fenn> ah. choreography 03:11 < kanzure_> choreographical. Yes. Anywho, I've heard of kinematic networks before. I had forgotten about them. Have I just stumbled upon them again and have repeated work by accident? :( 03:11 < fenn> choreography is more related to swarming behaviors/synchronization 03:11 < gene_> a meat slice bazooka? 03:11 < gene_> hahahahaha 03:11 < gene_> I want to see that 03:12 < gene_> input meat 03:12 < kanzure_> gene_: Shortly the system will also be generating (crude) 3D models. 03:12 < gene_> output high velocity sandwiches 03:12 < kanzure_> By 'crude' I mean that sometimes the system won't know how exactly to make the shapes fit together without some patch work algorithms (which makes it 'impure' but whatever - I'm ok with that) 03:13 < fenn> gene_: some kid in my high school stole a go-kart, removed the safety cage, then took a high speed joyride down a bike path. unfortunately for him the path was closed (it was night time) and there was a steel cable across the path, and he was sliced into bits. 03:13 < kanzure_> fenn: To what extent was he sliced? 03:13 < kanzure_> A single cable, so only two bits, yes? 03:14 < kanzure_> I suppose I'd have to know his body orientation and the cable orientation. 03:14 < fenn> well, i dont know the details of course, but supposedly he was beheaded 03:14 < kanzure_> This wasn't some parents' attempt to keep you indoors? 03:14 < kanzure_> "LIttle Jimmy was beheaded last week doing that, you know." etc. 03:15 < fenn> i heard about it a couple years after i graduated, apparently my friend had a grudge against him because he stole his stereo and smashed up his car's windshield 03:15 < fenn> nice guy eh 03:15 < kanzure_> fenn: Can kinematic networks be linked to the resulting motions that they produce? I mean, given a network diagram of different movements, does it follow the overall motion that will be generated? 03:16 < fenn> uh. "does it follow" meaning "can you predict"? 03:16 < kanzure_> Yes. 03:17 < fenn> sounds like a math proof 03:17 < kanzure_> Are these just force diagrams? 03:17 * kanzure_ is visually impaired at the moment. 03:17 < fenn> no, rigid kinematics are ideal objects, they dont flex or break 03:17 < fenn> makes the math easy 03:18 < fenn> easier 03:18 < fenn> i guess a force diagram is a superset of kinematics 03:21 < fenn> so, i was trying to come up with a kinematics description language for EMC so you didnt have to hand-code it every time 03:22 < fenn> apparently OROCOS tried this but ended up doing custom code for each family in the end (they only made cartesian and robot arms though) 03:22 < gene_> cartesian? 03:22 < fenn> xyz 03:23 < gene_> I know 03:23 < gene_> what cartesian is 03:23 < fenn> then what are you asking 03:23 < fenn> "cartesian kinematics" means linear movements on perpendicular axes 03:24 < fenn> as opposed to something weird like a stewart platform or a robot arm 03:24 < fenn> however as soon as you add rotary joints it gets complicated 03:27 < fenn> we will need kinematics description language/compiler in order to effectively use nanobots, and maybe even just for skdb-type "will this work" questions 03:28 < kanzure_> this is a different type of "will this work" question though, sort of 03:28 < kanzure_> first type of "will this work" is just making sure the turtles are friendly with one another on the same layers of abstraction and such 03:29 < kanzure_> but also "will this work" in the sense of evaluating a given circuit/design for common stuff. uh, energy, usefulness, and apparently also overall kinematics 03:29 < kanzure_> these things probably can't be unified so I'm sure this will be a fairly lengthy make script as usual. 03:29 < fenn> cant be unified, why not? 03:29 < kanzure_> as in they aren't all the same thing 03:30 < kanzure_> i.e., ideally it'd be nice to be able to just include those factors in the rules beforehand, instead of checking your work after you've made a design or something 03:30 < fenn> many of the same concepts apply to different engineering disciplines 03:30 < gene_> I built something weird fenn 03:30 < kanzure_> no doubt. 03:30 < gene_> a polar printer 03:31 < fenn> ie. efficiency, performance, requirements, MTBF, yadda 03:31 < gene_> somewhat far from keyboard at moment 03:31 < gene_> ignore ramblings plz 03:31 < fenn> gene_: what happens to theta as you cross over the centerline? 03:31 < fenn> "gimbal lock" is a kinematic singularity 03:31 < gene_> it goes to zero 03:31 < fenn> and plays hell with robot control software 03:32 < fenn> gene_: it doesn't go to zero, it assumes every value 03:32 < gene_> that isn't the hard part though 03:32 < gene_> the hard part is maintaining the same vel 03:32 < gene_> it doesn't 03:32 < gene_> it never does 03:32 < fenn> uh huh 03:32 < gene_> it goes 361 03:33 < gene_> and over 03:33 < fenn> what if it's on the other side of the line 03:33 < gene_> if it gets to high 03:33 < gene_> huh? 03:33 < gene_> oh 03:34 < gene_> I'm still trying to make it do lines 03:34 < fenn> ah, well, dont give up 03:34 < gene_> then r is negative 03:34 < gene_> well 03:34 < gene_> my printer is miles away from my current location 03:34 < gene_> and in a cartesian configuration 03:36 < xp_prg> how do I convert a string to double? 03:36 < fenn> (double) "foo" 03:36 < fenn> er, wait, what language? 03:36 < xp_prg> oh oops wrong channel 03:36 < xp_prg> python 03:36 < fenn> no such thing as a double in python 03:37 < fenn> use int("foo") or float("foo") 03:40 < xp_prg> kanzure__ I just made interactive script to add species to sbml file, want to see the script? 03:41 < kanzure_> As alyways, yes. Do you think my answer is going to change? 03:41 < xp_prg> don't know, its not complete so was wondering if it would irritate to you see it at this point 03:42 < gene_> sweet, add deinococcus radiodurans 03:42 < kanzure_> gene_: That's not what he's doing. 03:42 < kanzure_> 'species' are not species. 03:43 < gene_> huh? 03:43 < kanzure_> Think of it like 'chemical species'. 03:43 < gene_> oh 03:43 < kanzure_> Just because it uses the word species doesn't mean they run around and stuff. yeah 03:43 < gene_> sorry 03:43 < kanzure_> confusing/stupid terminology anyway 03:43 < gene_> indeed 03:43 < gene_> every word needs an address 03:43 < gene_> ipv6 or something 03:44 < xp_prg> ok sent it! 03:44 < kanzure_> If you have a technical infrastructure, why send words when you can just use the ISA? 03:44 < kanzure_> *use the ISA directly? 03:44 < xp_prg> what? 03:44 < fenn> you mean API? 03:45 < kanzure_> gene_ brought up the concept of using ipv6 for the mapping of words to locations, 03:45 < kanzure_> No, I mean ISA because it means some bit address => to some function. 03:45 < xp_prg> kanzure__ what do you think? 03:45 < kanzure_> APIs are built on top of ISAs (and a lot of other things in between) 03:45 < kanzure_> xp_prg: I don't receive email this quickly. 03:46 < fenn> instruction set architecture is an API for the chip 03:46 < fenn> it doesnt make sense for things that dont use 'instructions' though 03:47 < fenn> i think i see what you're getting at though, break the ambiguity of words by referring to a specific definition 03:47 < gene_> more of derailed conversation 03:47 < kanzure_> apt-get -> you get software and function, not Shakespeare. 03:48 < kanzure_> xp_prg: Ok. I saw it. 03:48 < xp_prg> what do you think man?! 03:48 < xp_prg> is that how you wanted it? 03:50 < fenn> "people might intellectually know the next step in a task but have a much easier time starting it if someone tells them" 03:52 < fenn> i must have quit my sysadmin job because of the constant "little thing" support requests 03:54 < bkero> That's why you get a flunkie. 03:54 < gene_> did you name your boxen? 03:54 < bkero> His name is gilbert 03:55 < gene_> ok 03:55 < gene_> mine is U-235 03:55 < bkero> Wait, what box? 03:55 < gene_> my box 03:55 < bkero> Oh 03:55 < gene_> that I am using 03:55 < bkero> You mean do I name my boxen? 03:55 < gene_> ok 03:55 < gene_> red 03:55 < gene_> green 03:55 < bkero> Yea, I have daedalus, maetel, mach, omni, echelon, xanadu, shangrila 03:55 < gene_> filter 03:55 < gene_> no 03:55 < xp_prg> kanzure_ dude you going to answer me or what? 03:56 < kanzure_> xp_prg: Get back to work. 03:56 < fenn> bkero: maetel from "adieu 999"? 03:56 < xp_prg> is it along the lines of what your looking for though? 03:56 < kanzure_> xp_prg: I don't care about the input, just get all of the fields included that were in interface1,2,3.php. The input stuff is not bad. 03:56 < gene_> those words i typed were random 03:57 < xp_prg> ok 03:57 < fenn> i guess there arent any other maetel's 03:57 < bkero> fenn: Heh yea 03:57 * bkero nerds 03:58 < gene_> adieu 999 03:58 < gene_> what is that? 03:58 < fenn> that was a sweet anime, though i never understood wtf was with the train 03:58 < gene_> ok 03:58 < gene_> thought so 03:58 < bkero> Well 03:58 < bkero> It's 03:58 < gene_> train in space 03:58 < bkero> Adieu Galaxy Express 999 03:58 < fenn> sort of like a dream 03:58 < gene_> ok 03:58 < gene_> that's more than I need to know 03:58 < fenn> a dream where you're riding a train falling into a black hole 03:58 < bkero> Which is a sequal to Galaxy Express 999 03:58 < gene_> I am not a big fan of physically in accurate anime 03:59 < gene_> especially this steampunk one I saw the other day 03:59 < bkero> Which is a modern(ish) movie made from an anime series from 1978 04:00 < fenn> oh i'm thinking of the 1978 one 04:00 < gene_> the guns on the ships would have generated a torque on them causing them to spin 04:00 < fenn> where the machine civilization's dirty secret is their power pills are soylent green 04:00 < bkero> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq-b_iNrQaQ 04:00 < bkero> Same thing 04:00 < bkero> THe movies are condensed tv series 04:01 < gene_> augh! 04:01 < gene_> bad physics 04:01 < kanzure_> Heh. I remember the opening to Adieu Galaxy Express 999. 04:01 < gene_> train should be spining 04:02 < bkero> Oh my http://epii.info/anime/2008%20Katsucon/Galaxy%20Express%20999%20-%20Maetel.jpg 04:02 < fenn> bad physics is probably why i didnt like the original gundam 04:03 < bkero> Giant robots is why I didn't like gundam 04:03 < gene_> it is a bit more accurate 04:03 < gene_> but still bad nonetheless 04:03 < fenn> bkero: what's wrong with giant robots? 04:04 < gene_> they are nuclear powered 04:04 < fenn> fusion powered i believe 04:04 < gene_> and probably have sufficient strength to weight ratio 04:04 < bkero> Dunno, always seemed rather lame 04:04 < bkero> I guess I watched voltron as a kid, and now it's just silly 04:04 < gene_> you seen LoGH? 04:05 < fenn> later gundam series tried to fix the science up so it made sense 04:05 < gene_> legend of galatic heroes? 04:05 < bkero> Tried 04:05 < bkero> I'm still a big fan of Eva though. 8) 04:05 < gene_> same 04:05 < bkero> Eva doesn't have any robots :/ 04:05 < gene_> what 04:05 < fenn> bkero: there is a good reason for humanoid military robots, which is that humans can pilot them as second nature 04:06 < gene_> 's wrong with giant biorobots 04:06 * kanzure_ avoids a rant about mechas not being robots. 04:06 < fenn> wah 04:06 < bkero> No mecha's in eva either :P 04:06 < kanzure_> "Mobile Suite Gundam". Not "Mobile Robot". :-/ 04:06 * kanzure_ runs before he rants. 04:06 < gene_> and a giant underground geofront with walls made of protein 04:07 < fenn> no? i havent seen it, what are the girls in skin-tight rubber suits for then? 04:07 < bkero> gene_: They found the geofront, replicated it. Walls made of protein? Where? 04:07 < gene_> protein wall 04:07 < bkero> cite? 04:07 < gene_> http://www.dark-kingdom.org/NREhtml/Scripts/NREv13.html 04:08 < bkero> Erm 04:08 < bkero> That's fanfiction 04:08 < gene_> crap 04:08 < gene_> I couldn't tell 04:09 < bkero> Yea dude 04:09 < bkero> really bad fanfiction 04:10 < fenn> kanzure_: gundam suits have autopilot and limited AI, does this not make them robots? 04:10 < gene_> see pribnow box 04:10 < gene_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_Genesis_Evangelion_glossary#Second_Impact 04:11 < fenn> they shouldnt be called suits anyway, since they have a cockpit and are controlled with joysticks 04:11 < fenn> contrast with say, GUGES 04:11 < fenn> er, landmates 04:11 < kanzure_> Clearly the naming could be better when classifying animes and so on. 04:12 < kanzure_> I'm sure the Wikipedia contributors have solved it somewhat. 04:12 < gene_> WARNING CONVERSATION HAS DIVERGED INTO ANIME NOMECLATURE ARGUMENT 04:12 < fenn> rawr 04:12 < bkero> gene_: It's a small room with protein-covered walls 04:12 < kanzure_> this is the INTERNET and this SHIT is *IMPORTANT* 04:13 < fenn> gene build me a small efficient simple reliable inexpensive proportional hydraulic valve 04:13 < gene_> the internet is serious business 04:13 < fenn> if we dont do it, who will? 04:13 < bkero> srs 04:13 < gene_> please select payment type 04:13 < fenn> whuffie 04:14 < gene_> I am sorry, but this unit doesn't accept fictional currencies 04:14 < bkero> I won't really debate anime nomeclature with you folks, but I would suggest sitting through the action-y 13 first Evangelion episodes, and really enjoy the last ones. 04:14 < kanzure_> I didn't like Evangelion as much as I would have liked to enjoy it. 04:14 < gene_> they should never have tried to expand evangelion 04:14 < bkero> Expand? 04:15 < kanzure_> fenn: gene is still "for profit". :( 04:15 < bkero> They did some lame spinoff 04:15 < bkero> I really enjoyed End of Evangelion though. 04:15 < gene_> I watched the first of the end of evangelion 04:15 < gene_> and then stopped 04:15 < bkero> There's a second end of evangelion? 04:15 < gene_> no 04:15 < gene_> you know what happens in the beginning of the end of evangelion 04:16 < bkero> It's definitely wtfworthy 04:16 < gene_> yes 04:16 < gene_> yes it is 04:16 < bkero> I like wtfworthies. 04:16 < bkero> Which would explain why my other favorites are Lain and Haibane Renmei 04:17 < gene_> so what do you want your valve to be made out of? 04:17 < fenn> a commodity 04:18 < gene_> you have chosen: solid fluorine is this correct? 04:18 < fenn> apparently you dont understand the meaning of 'commodity' 04:18 < fenn> let's try a buzzword: COTS 04:18 < gene_> ok 04:19 < bkero> Commidity has a definite meaning 04:19 < fenn> the more common the better 04:19 < fenn> the more standardized the better 04:19 < gene_> bulk diamond has automatically been chosen 04:19 < fenn> pfff.. engineering students 04:19 < kanzure_> .. 04:20 < gene_> due to failure to specify cost ceiling 04:20 < bkero> Did you guys see the tequila synthetic diamonds? 04:20 < fenn> i already have a design, i'm just pissed that i have to make up something so simple on my own 04:20 < gene_> yes 04:20 < gene_> wait 04:20 < gene_> you actually need a valve? 04:20 < gene_> for a car? 04:20 < fenn> tequila on the rocks 04:21 < fenn> gene_: for a fucking robot you moron 04:21 < gene_> oh 04:21 < gene_> ok 04:21 < gene_> that changes things then 04:21 < gene_> what sort of robot? 04:21 < gene_> oh 04:22 < fenn> well, starting out with limb replacement prosthetics, moving on to service androids and exoskeletons 04:22 < bkero> Use a sphincter? :) 04:22 < gene_> small, medium, or large? 04:22 < fenn> bkero: the problem in a nutshell is going from low-power electrical signal to a hydraulic flow 04:22 < fenn> in a confined space 04:23 < fenn> preferably inline with the supply tube 04:23 < gene_> sphincters don't work to well at high pressures 04:23 < gene_> hmm..... 04:24 < bkero> You're looking for a biological valve? 04:24 < gene_> well since it's for an exoskeleton I might have to do this for free 04:24 < fenn> so, for an android, valve should have a cross sectional area of at least 50% of the supply line while not being much larger than the supply line diameter 04:24 < gene_> so 04:25 < fenn> bkero: not biological 04:25 < gene_> proportional control valve? 04:25 < fenn> or something that can be used for proportional control with enough software 04:26 < gene_> I don't think a proportional valve will work 04:26 < fenn> valves are much tricker than transistors because the fluid has inertia 04:26 < bkero> What kind of pressure are you talking about? I use bleeder valves with servos for around 40psi 04:26 < bkero> Actually around 120psi in my air compressor 04:26 < gene_> 9001 psi 04:26 < fenn> bleeder valves with servos? what does that look like? 04:27 < gene_> 23000 psi what oil pipelines run at 04:27 < fenn> pressure doesnt have to be so high, 120 might be enough 04:27 < bkero> Like http://i21.ebayimg.com/07/s/000/77/47/c83d_1.JPG 04:27 < fenn> hydraulics is because air is compressible and sucks for making controlled movements 04:28 < bkero> What you want is called a 'boost controller' if you're going for automotive components. 04:28 < fenn> what is the black cylinder? looks like an allen head screw 04:28 < gene_> fenn you might want to learn about microcompressors 04:28 < bkero> Some comes with allans 04:28 < bkero> Some come with knobs 04:29 < gene_> really damn small compressors 04:29 < bkero> Just google image search 'manual boost controller' 04:29 < fenn> wtf does this have to do with going from electronic to hydraulic signal? 04:30 < bkero> It's a valve. 04:30 < bkero> Weren't you wanting an electronically controllable valve? 04:30 < fenn> but there's no electrical parts... 04:31 < bkero> A controllable valve :P 04:31 < fenn> sigh 04:31 < bkero> Nevermind. 04:44 < gene_> kanzure 04:44 < gene_> I got it 04:44 < kanzure_> ? 04:44 < gene_> I figured out the reloading mechanism 04:45 < gene_> or the loading mechanism 04:46 < gene_> it's going to be hard to reload though 04:47 < gene_> but nevertheless 04:48 < gene_> it could have a sucess rate of 70% 04:51 < gene_> success rate estimated by brainsense tm 04:51 < fenn> *cough* evolutionary bias *cough* 04:58 < gene_> indeed 05:03 < gene_> though I come from a long line of engineers that can trace our lineage back to the greek automata makers 05:04 < gene_> just kidding 05:08 < fenn> now if this aint the damnedest 05:08 < fenn> There is a subgroup of autistic people who get along in life by imitating non-autistic people. Imitation can become a habit. When they learn that they are autistic, or when they start becoming more identified with being autistic, they can almost reflexively throw up another facade: That of imitating themselves to the point of self-caricature, or imitating other autistic people in a fairly superficial way the same way as they 05:09 < kanzure_> Do they tend to imitate other animals instead of other people? 05:10 < fenn> i do 05:10 < kanzure_> First time I read that I was a little confused, I was skimming past that on the page. I thought it said something about neurotypical -> facade 05:10 < kanzure_> not autie -> NT-facade -> autie-facade-psychosis-layer 05:11 < fenn> she's saying autistic people imitate whoever they identify with 05:11 < gene_> huh? 05:11 < gene_> imitation is the sincerest form of flattery isn't it? 05:11 < fenn> (not surprising considering this is how human society works) 05:12 < gene_> and who really cares about social interaction anyway? 05:12 < fenn> i do, it's an important part of getting things done 05:12 < gene_> aren't we all a bit autistic 05:12 < fenn> yes 05:12 < gene_> getting what done? 05:12 < fenn> you know, stuff 05:12 < kanzure_> http://www.autistics.org/library/inertia.html 05:13 * fenn points at the moon 05:13 < gene_> wait a minute 05:14 < gene_> that's a sign of autism 05:14 < kanzure_> The moon? 05:14 < gene_> wanting to do something but not doing it? 05:14 < fenn> apparently 05:14 < gene_> oh crap 05:14 < fenn> <- not a doctor 05:14 < kanzure_> It's not in the DSM, but. 05:15 < fenn> also, autismism seems to be an internet fad lately.. i dunno how this affects things 05:15 < gene_> well 05:15 < kanzure_> The internet is made on the backs of autists anyway. 05:17 < fenn> "Autistic people can be very much creatures of habit, literally needing objects to stay in the same locations and routines to happen the same way every time in order to function. There is nothing necessarily wrong with this; it is similar to how blind people frequently need things to stay in the same spot in a room so they can find them." 05:17 < fenn> sometimes i walk around in the dark because it feels better.. 05:17 < fenn> knowing where everything is 05:18 < kanzure_> fenn: She was practically running a MOO/MUD in her nogan. 05:18 < kanzure_> Not quite multi-user I guess. 05:19 < fenn> or maybe just, having to turn on lights all the time is pointless when you know where everything is 05:19 < gene_> so is this where brain stimulation comes in? 05:19 < kanzure_> gene_: Yes and no. Mostly no. 05:20 < fenn> gene_: in my understanding the rTMS stuff swamps long range neural communication to approximate an autistic brain 05:20 < gene_> hopefully I can find me some memes to make me more productive 05:20 < fenn> memes? 05:20 < kanzure_> means? 05:21 * fenn thinks gene_ is a filthy memehole 05:21 < kanzure_> There are also other uses of rTMS of course. 05:21 < fenn> kanzure_: like what? 05:21 < gene_> unfortunately I am 05:21 < gene_> but I do make my own memes 05:21 < kanzure_> rTMS does more than allow for the approximation of autistic brains. 05:22 < gene_> for example 05:22 < kanzure_> Have I shown you the "Meme Trainers" short story? 05:22 < fenn> the church of flying bacon 05:22 < gene_> no? 05:22 < kanzure_> fenn: That was more a group random number/name generator effect. 05:22 < gene_> have you ever launched a meme? 05:22 < gene_> I tried to launch one the other day 05:23 < kanzure_> You refer to the viral internet type? 05:23 < gene_> to crash the phone networks 05:23 < gene_> nope 05:23 < fenn> silly human, you can't create a meme 05:23 < gene_> meatspace 05:23 < gene_> I can 05:23 < fenn> you just think you can 05:23 < gene_> you should see my paper virus 05:23 < gene_> it's a replicator made from paper 05:23 < gene_> I know 05:23 < fenn> sounds oh so scary 05:23 < gene_> probably is the case 05:24 < fenn> everyone call 1-800-ilovebees 05:25 < fenn> heh meme trainers is actually sort of based on the plot of macross 05:25 < kanzure_> yes 05:25 < kanzure_> Do I have it on my server? I forget. 05:26 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/docs/meme_trainers.html 05:26 < kanzure_> Yep. Neat. 05:26 < kanzure_> gene_: There you go. 05:26 < fenn> you know your organization system sucks when you have to google search your own server 05:27 < kanzure_> Nah, I tried /docs/ first. 05:30 < gene_> what the fuck 05:30 < gene_> memetrainers is messed up 05:31 < kanzure_> Formatting? 05:31 < gene_> no 05:31 < gene_> the whole thing 05:32 < gene_> http://n2.cdn.spikedhumor.com/1/652000/159871_bicycle_feet_1_vw.jpg 05:33 < fenn> hah battle angel alita in 1910 05:34 < gene_> I don't get it 05:34 < gene_> my mind is going 05:35 < kanzure_> It's fiction. 05:35 < gene_> no that 1910 part 05:35 < fenn> alita = a cyborg with powered two-wheel roller skates 05:35 < fenn> 1910 is a year 05:35 < gene_> ok 05:36 < gene_> I am not that 'cultured' so to say 05:36 < fenn> i cant seem to find any pictures on this dang fangled internet 05:36 < gene_> well I have to goggle out 05:38 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorball 05:39 < fenn> ah finally a decent pic http://xuxu.fr/data/note/gunnm-motorball.jpg 05:40 < fenn> rawr of course it wont load.. http://www.cannonspike.com/CamFan/miscellaneous/gally-cammy/motorball-alita.gif 05:42 < kanzure_> "Coping with the inertia of task paralysis" 05:42 < fenn> dont mock my manga obsession 05:43 < fenn> why is it that good ideas almost invariably get totally screwed up in the translation from book to film? 05:44 < kanzure_> Heh, the author of that "Coping with .." article knows the power of surface space for keeping things on top. 05:45 < fenn> haha "autism hypochondria" 05:46 < kanzure_> The rest of the article is crap. 05:49 < kanzure_> "I must move myself. Yes. Movement is the secret. The universe moves as I move. As I move, so I move the universe." 05:49 < kanzure_> Zindell threw that in as one of the final revelations in the Neverness saga. 05:49 < gene_> oh 05:50 < gene_> toobad power skates are illegal 05:51 < kanzure_> Danlo wi Soli Ringess becomes paralyzed underneath the Eternal Computer, controlled by evil mastermind Hanuman and his plan to convert the galaxies into computronium for his simulations of a "better reality". 05:53 < kanzure_> "The longest journey begins with the first step, unless you can fly." "The trick to flying is to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Oops, circles. 05:54 * fenn has bicycles on his feet, your argument is irrelevant 05:56 < gene_> it would be much better if we converted the whole galaxy to computorium 05:56 < gene_> admit it 05:56 < kanzure_> No. 05:59 < gene_> what about custom made planets 05:59 < gene_> with cheesecakes the size of cities 05:59 < kanzure_> Terraforming, megascale engineering, artificial planets aren't the same thing -- they're not cancerous attempts at wiping the galaxy. 06:00 < gene_> well then there are plenty of other galaxies we could use 06:00 < kanzure_> Cancer wouldn't be limited to a single galaxy by the nature of cancer. 06:01 < gene_> i mean 06:02 < kanzure_> Hm. Now that I'm making some money perhaps I'll seek out David's tutoring. 06:02 < gene_> you build all the terraformed planets in teh galaxies you don't convert to computorium 06:04 < fenn> unless you happen to be living in a galaxy that got converted to computronium 06:04 < fenn> in which case you are no longer alive as a physical entity 06:04 < gene_> what if you agreed to it 06:04 < fenn> what if you didn't agree to it 06:04 < kanzure_> This isn't about ethics of agreement or anything. That's not my point. 06:04 < gene_> then your galaxy doesn't get converted 06:04 < fenn> whose galaxy is it anyway? 06:05 < gene_> hubert's 06:05 < kanzure_> Ownership isn't the issue either. 06:05 < gene_> what is 06:05 < kanzure_> Rather it's an understanding that reality is the most optimal way of "doing things". By this I mean that it would take more than the galaxies to simulate the very same galaxies. 06:05 < fenn> depends what you want to do 06:05 < kanzure_> Certainly. 06:06 < fenn> galaxies are very good at simulating galaxies... 06:06 < fenn> but not so good for factoring numbers 06:06 < kanzure_> Humans seem to be factoring numbers, fenn. 06:06 < fenn> huh? 06:06 < kanzure_> humans -> subset of a galaxy 06:06 < gene_> well yeah 06:06 < fenn> humans suck at factoring numbers 06:07 < fenn> the fact that we can do it at all is amazing 06:07 < gene_> but you can do so much more with computorium than galaxies 06:07 < kanzure_> You can't do the galaxies. 06:07 < gene_> 'il;jkdfsrtfyguoiopipop 06:07 < kanzure_> The galaxies were doing the galaxies, and all of the possibilities and physical phenomena therein. 06:07 < fenn> oh come off it 06:10 < kanzure_> Then a spec of dust should be able to predict the entirety of all of the galaxies and give you the ultimate 'cheats' or whatever. 06:10 < kanzure_> That brings up so much crap :-/ 06:11 < fenn> sure, all you need is to equip your speck of computronium with a FTL drive 06:11 < fenn> this effectively turns it into a time machine, giving it infinite computational power 06:12 < fenn> actually it might work if you had an infinite amount of energy -> 1.0*C 06:13 < fenn> but the universe isnt quite infinite so it doesnt need to be infinite 06:13 < fenn> anyway, if you think the universe is "efficient" at being a universe, that's fine 06:13 < fenn> it doesnt have any bearing on what "should" be done 06:14 < kanzure_> Bullshit, go live in your "Second Life" resort and I'll still be here as the angry sysadmin supporting your stupid fantasies about the way reality "should" be. 06:15 < kanzure_> No matter how deep you go into the simulation, you're not subplanting(? overwriting) the substrate. Despite Egan's "Permutation City" (or so I hear - this is from a friend, not from me reading it) 06:16 * fenn happens to side with the carter-zimmermans 06:16 < fenn> not fanatically so 06:16 < kanzure_> ? 06:17 < fenn> oops wrong egan book 06:17 < kanzure_> Remember Orwell? It's like a boot smashing into your face over and over again. "Yes, of course this is the one true reality. Of course, of course there couldn't be another way." 06:17 < fenn> carter-zimmerman clade believed that man's true purpose was to understand the cosmos 06:18 < fenn> despite this, they lived as software in a VR environment because it was most efficient/secure/free etc 06:18 < kanzure_> "Preserve memory above all." or some such. 06:19 < kanzure_> I don't doubt that .. 06:19 < kanzure_> but VR is still context-dependent on the substrates in which it was running on 06:19 < kanzure_> Look, just living in a VR doesn't make the fundamental reality vanish or anything ;-) 06:19 < fenn> sure, i'm not arguing that at all 06:19 < kanzure_> and the fact that you converted an entire galaxy into planets for "your" simulation 06:19 < fenn> is wrong? 06:20 < fenn> the planets are there, they're real 06:20 < kanzure_> um, sorry, into computronium, not planets 06:20 < fenn> it might be boring to an outsider 06:21 < fenn> it might appear as a threat to "god's will" because obviously god wanted plasma filaments and black holes 06:21 < kanzure_> No, it's not that either. 06:22 < fenn> it might appear as a threat to sentient life who are stuck in a particular location for some reason 06:22 < kanzure_> It is a mistake to confuse histories. 06:22 < fenn> i dont follow that 06:26 < kanzure_> I'm having trouble at the moment, but perhaps 'facade' covers it. 06:26 < kanzure_> I used to have a good line for this situation, but I'm tired and hungry :/ 06:28 < fenn> it's turtles all the way down, dude 07:36 < kanzure_> ;..,~0k[[[78jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj 07:39 < gene_> kqwerty? 07:41 < gene_> what's a good magazine capacity kanzure? 07:43 < gene_> guess you aren't nocturnal like I am 08:08 < kanzure_> I've been having somesleeping problems recently. It'll be fixed soon. 08:35 < bkero> the fuck? http://xanadu.meetup.com/1/ 13:51 < UtopiahGHML> visual for biobricks : http://www.artadox.com/nathan-sawaya-the-art-of-the-brick/ 14:57 < kanzure_> Have any of us ranted about brain stimulation via infrared LEDs? 14:58 < UtopiahGHML> ? 14:58 < kanzure_> I'm wondering if it's just something that I've forgotten about. 14:58 < kanzure_> I've received an email from an individual who's telling me it's the most important thing he's come across. 14:59 < UtopiahGHML> did he try it? 14:59 < kanzure_> Yes. 14:59 < kanzure_> :) 14:59 < UtopiahGHML> Is it a good sign? :P 15:22 < kanzure_> bavariancyclistsneurohackingdivision <- Fuck. 15:26 < kanzure_> I'll have to send them an introduction sometime later today. (I guess before I finish the reply to Michel re: OS space stuff) 15:31 < kanzure_> Hrm. I don't have an overall index to all of the 'work' I've done re: brain stuff. I'd imagine a few links are in order to the /books/mousebrain/ dir, the /books/Biology/neuro/ dir, /~bbishop/docs/open-rtms/ dir, bookmark dump, log dump from this channel, and uhh, some other things. 15:31 < kanzure_> my brain visualizer 15:32 < UtopiahGHML> you need to remap all the content, like you do within your non-internet brain 15:32 < kanzure_> re-mapping sucks. Half the time you forget that you remapped at all. 15:32 < UtopiahGHML> that's one of the most demanding task for me 15:32 < kanzure_> Refactoring, also, sucks. 15:32 < UtopiahGHML> rewiring a network properly :/ 15:33 < kanzure_> "properly" bleh 15:33 < kanzure_> I'll probably just save the email to the website anyway and that's the "refactoring". 15:33 < kanzure_> (more like a consolidation) 15:33 < UtopiahGHML> luckily the semantic web tools will solve all the problem of the world. 15:34 < kanzure_> ?? 15:34 < kanzure_> What are you smoking? 15:34 < UtopiahGHML> want some? 15:34 < UtopiahGHML> remember 15:34 < UtopiahGHML> Yes we can! 15:34 < UtopiahGHML> :P 15:34 < kanzure_> nsh: For context, Utopiah over here just admitted he thinks that the 'semantic web' will solve all of the problems of the world. :/ 15:35 < UtopiahGHML> Yes we can! 15:35 * nsh makes nondescript noises 18:52 < kanzure_> "The economy, my dear, is just a system. Not a deity." 19:22 < UtopiahGHML> Yes we can! 19:23 < kanzure_> Are you trying to be funny or are you aware that you're being stupid? 19:24 < UtopiahGHML> You are not a believer in the new world president 19:24 < UtopiahGHML> he'll change everything! 19:24 < kanzure_> New World president? 19:24 < bkero> what 19:25 < UtopiahGHML> you know that "Yes we can" Change and stuff like that was Obama campain motto, right? 19:25 < kanzure_> But why repeat political bullshit in here? 19:25 < UtopiahGHML> because irony and cinism is a form of humor appreciated by many 19:26 < UtopiahGHML> (for those who get it at least). 19:29 < UtopiahGHML> guess it can be less funny when you're actually in the US. 19:29 < kanzure_> :( 19:30 < kanzure_> "Our sun has gone out. We can make a new one with our lava fusion cauldron and three sun seeds, but they keep burning out before we can ge tthem in the pot." Ack.. brain .. hurt. 19:37 < UtopiahGHML> kanzure_: if you want to make witty comment or even constructive critics Id appreciate some on http://seedea.free.fr/persowiki/index.php?n=Content.CognitiveDevelopmentFailure 19:37 < kanzure_> I'm not on a box with a browser at the moment. If you email it to me, you more guarantee that I'll eventually follow the link. 19:38 < UtopiahGHML> maybe you could have a page where we could paste you links, like a page on your wiki or sth 19:38 < kanzure_> Sure, go ahead. 19:40 < UtopiahGHML> hmmm I can't find your wiki on heybryan 19:41 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Links 19:41 < UtopiahGHML> thanks 19:43 < UtopiahGHML> updated 19:55 < UtopiahGHML> (WoW Obama http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_XJseql2u5l0/SRSm9CLnzPI/AAAAAAAADGc/yE-L3wN5xOU/s1600-h/obama_wow.jpg ) 19:56 < UtopiahGHML> is there a webpage that evaluate tranhumanist projects? 19:56 < UtopiahGHML> the most promising one, the fastest, etc... 19:56 < UtopiahGHML> eventually based on sth like InTrade 19:57 < kanzure_> We're kind of it, UtopiahGHML . 19:57 < fenn> haha based on intrade 19:57 < UtopiahGHML> ok, what's the url of the result? 19:57 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap was an attempt to track all of it. 19:57 < kanzure_> intrade is what? 19:57 < kanzure_> UtopiahGHML: The Roadmap wiki page. But that's old. :-/ You can try to clean it up I guess. 19:57 < fenn> UtopiahGHML: i'll sell you some stock in molecular nanotech 19:57 < kanzure_> hah 19:57 < UtopiahGHML> market base system 19:58 < UtopiahGHML> and you can see the impact on each news with the valuation 19:58 < kanzure_> oh please. 19:58 < kanzure_> Everybody has one of those. 19:59 < UtopiahGHML> ok, so where is the up-to-date H+ project listing? 19:59 < kanzure_> I thought I had a list of projects on the Roadmap page. 19:59 < UtopiahGHML> (doesn't have to be some trendy scoreboard) 19:59 < fenn> so, what is the value of this *opinion* anyway? 20:00 < kanzure_> fenn: well, a full listing of "related stuff" is always nice I guess 20:00 < fenn> of course, but it takes a lot of work 20:00 * kanzure_ glances at his bookmarks 20:00 < UtopiahGHML> fenn: well explained arguments would be better than opinion, especially if you don't know the field of the project 20:00 < kanzure_> the majority of it is *not* cross-referenced. 20:00 < kanzure_> arguments? 20:00 < kanzure_> wtf? 20:01 < fenn> UtopiahGHML: i dont think the human race is at that level of knowledge modeling yet 20:01 < fenn> unless you just mean a bunch of text 20:01 < fenn> which is already out there anyway 20:01 < fenn> see daviddarling.info for example 20:02 < kanzure_> Btw, that same somebody that emailed me earlier today re: infrared LEDs for brain stimulation is also offering somebody who wants to help us build an rTMS setup. 20:02 < kanzure_> Supposedly he knews the electronics for it. 20:03 < fenn> me is skeptical 20:03 < kanzure_> The yahoo! group actually looks rather interesting. 20:03 < fenn> "oh sure its just discharging a capacitor" is what most people think 20:03 < kanzure_> bavariancyclistneurohackingdivision 20:03 < fenn> but there's a lot of high frequency high power signal stuff you have to worry about 20:04 < fenn> what's with the name anyway? 20:04 < fenn> group not found 20:04 < fenn> google useless 20:05 < fenn> oop spoke too soon http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bavariancyclistneurohackers/ 20:05 < fenn> kanzure_: what sort of box doesnt have a browser? 20:14 < kanzure_> They had a lot of .doc files in their file dir on the yahoo group thingy, 20:14 < kanzure_> oh uh 20:14 < kanzure_> I'm still playing retarded and am not running under screen 20:14 < kanzure_> and I don't want to have to go hunting through me logs 20:15 < kanzure_> Any idea on copying a line in vim? I'm trying to use wvHtml blah.doc blah.html, but I have this big list of doc files 20:15 < kanzure_> I was hoping wvHtml *.doc would work, but it needs to have the second parameter, the name of the output file 20:18 < kanzure_> oh, nevermind :) 20:24 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/neuro/html/ <- stuff from that yahoo group 20:24 < kanzure_> Huh. 20:24 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/books/Biology/neuro/html/ <- Proper. 20:28 < kanzure_> Hm, the electrode document is a good one. 20:28 < kanzure_> I mean the DIY_CES one. 20:31 < kanzure_> Yay, Ed's mentioned in these documents. Not sure how worth it these docs were though.. kinda simple stuff here and there. 21:09 < kanzure_> Eric Hunting just posted about "closed loop living". Geeze, sounds almost familiar. 23:47 < gene_> Kanzure running into trouble on the cartridge advancing mechanism got any ideas? 23:47 < kanzure_> What trouble in paritcular? 23:48 < kanzure_> Why cartridges? It would be easy to have a funnel to push pigs down into the trough. 23:48 < kanzure_> (with a pushing mechanism) 23:48 < gene_> no 23:48 < gene_> it wouldn't 23:49 < gene_> the cartridge has boxes that contain each pig 23:49 < kanzure_> If you insist. 23:49 < gene_> a piston pushes the pig out of the cartridge and into the catapult lever arm 23:49 < gene_> please describe your mechanism 23:50 < gene_> a funnel is apt to jamming 23:50 < gene_> but might work 23:51 < kanzure_> Yes, it would be prone to jamming, it's a simplification. 23:51 < gene_> maybe 23:51 < gene_> it also might take up less space than a cartridge 23:52 < gene_> you know what would be really cool? 23:53 < gene_> if we made it TOTALLY automated 23:53 < gene_> where it not only launches pigs 23:53 < gene_> but makes them 23:53 < gene_> from raw materials 23:53 < gene_> but that's complicated... 23:53 < kanzure_> Cellular bootstrapping is not something yet accomplished. 23:54 < kanzure_> While cells can repair their membranes, we don't have a Urey-like experiment that can boostrap membranes and cells. 23:54 < kanzure_> :-/ 23:54 < gene_> I'm thinking something more along the lines of an injection molding machine 23:55 < gene_> input plastic--->???---->output hot high velocity plastic pigs 23:55 < kanzure_> Attach the ME dept's selective laser sintering machine perhaps? 23:56 < gene_> heh 23:56 < gene_> damn those things have a high res 23:57 < gene_> I was talking to someone who works with them, they were contemplating printing somemthing to fit in their locket 23:57 < gene_> so 23:58 < kanzure_> How about we go fetch a picture of Billy Wood and model his likeness and print out a pig with his face to launch in a demo of the pig launcher product? 23:58 < gene_> for the cartridge advancing mechanism I am thinking something like those click-click pen 23:58 < gene_> no 23:58 < gene_> I did get 3d scanned you know 23:58 < gene_> but I don't want to print myself out 23:59 < kanzure_> OpenCP + a photograph or a quick video will work to get Billy's face.