--- Day changed Tue Nov 11 2008
00:00 < nsh> but, anyway, being able to take a set of concepts as vertices and take a geometrical average between them 
00:01 < kanzure_> Look into state vector machines.
00:01 < nsh> when discussing (as invariably happens, though often implicitly), something that has no explicit identifier
00:01 < kanzure_> It's like regression analysis in N-dimensional semantic spaces. 
00:02 < kanzure_> Plotting the N-1 boundary that properly polarizes the set.
00:02  * nsh sees the connection, hmm
00:02 < kanzure_> "properly polarizes" is a bad description. Wikipedia will know better.
00:02 < nsh> what i'm thinking about is finding the optimal incongruence between unconscious semantic fields of different conversants
00:03 < nsh> discussion is most fertile when the participants have some 'sweet spot' between perfect correspondence of what they think they're all talking about
00:03 < nsh> and no correspondence
00:03 < nsh> just like language finds some optimality between low and high entropy
00:04 < nsh> (orderedness, if that word is still out of favour :-/)
00:04 < kanzure_> Gah.
00:04 < kanzure_> Support vector machines. That's the right name.
00:05 < kanzure_> Yeah, so when I was doing the semantic assistant stuff for searching through Google, I was going to try to find the points on the semantic space or manifold where there are connections between certain operations or manipulations on my inputs to the search engine that tend to turn up relevant results or things that "fit what I'm looking for". So this was going to involve some Hidden Markov Chains.
00:05 < kanzure_> Hidden Markov chains mention might have been cut off there...
00:05 < UtopiahGHML> nsh: I think new words emerge from a changement in topology of the vocabulary network. When you have to summarize a sub-network a new word emerge and the process goes on recursively.
00:06 < nsh> UtopiahGHML, indeed
00:06 < nsh> btw, this strongly brings to mind something from physics
00:06 < nsh> i think it was wheeler
00:06 < nsh> the notion of pregeometry
00:06 < UtopiahGHML> ?
00:07 < nsh> specifically, one example of a topological system, with tubes and mountains of different magnitudes
00:07 < nsh> and how the topology seems to change as you shrink or grow a ball that is exploring it by rolling around
00:07 < nsh> so if there's a tunnel, wormhole, for instance
00:08 < nsh> a large ball doesn't see it, it thinks the manifold is just flat or curved there
00:08 < nsh> but once you shrink beyond a certain radius, you open up a new connectivity
00:08 < nsh> which was there, implicitly, but not 'visible' to the resolution previously
00:08 < UtopiahGHML> yup
00:08 < UtopiahGHML> fractal
00:08 < nsh> a ball bearing exploring a swiss cheese verses a marble
00:08 < nsh> right
00:09 < nsh> of course, that's a static model for simplification
00:09 < nsh> in reality, the trasversal of the ball (people exploring the semantic space) alters the topology
00:09 < nsh> so it's self-referential
00:09 < UtopiahGHML> yup I thought about that before
00:10  * UtopiahGHML checking Wheeler's pregeometry
00:11 < nsh> often, the most fertile moments in the progression of understanding come when there is a kind of catastrophe (in the mathematical sense)
00:11 < kanzure_> EricWheelman: I just got your other email. Seriously, I was talking about Eric Hunting.
00:11 < nsh> where the concept space curves up on itself
00:11 < nsh> someone starts to see how one part of the fabric can be applied to many others
00:11 < nsh> you get a multiple connectedness then
00:12 < nsh> the topology becomes non-orientable
00:12 < UtopiahGHML> nsh: I think learning is actually caused by depressions in the network, you know you lack an information (in the previous example a word) and have to fill the gap thanks to your existing network (not sure one could call it a catastrophe though)
00:13 < kanzure_> Given a lack of information, that's where I come in to play.
00:13 < kanzure_> You'll note that the current work that I'm doing is a way to "plug up" two distant parts of a network sort of. "Repair it" so to speak.
00:13 < nsh> UtopiahGHML, this is what i mean by a mathematical catastrohpe http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=vzGjZ8nGmpw
00:13 < kanzure_> This is in terms of the graph theory of the design of synthetic biological circuits and mechanical engineering designs, but it works for semantics as well.
00:14 < kanzure_> nsh: Video summary please? I can't get to that right away.
00:14 < kanzure_> My movement module is broken. :)
00:14  * UtopiahGHML is curious to read the summary :)
00:15 < UtopiahGHML> guess you could give the equation
00:15 < UtopiahGHML> "Here we show the p,q-plane (red) together with the zeros of the polynomial
00:15 < nsh> kanzure_, it's a cusp catastrophe (a surface, disc, that it stretched to touch double over twice and touch itself)
00:15 < UtopiahGHML> x^3 + px + q (yellow) and its discriminant 4x^3+27y^2=0 (black on red). The white line shows the zeros corresponding to a given choice of p and q. "
00:16 < nsh> ( more examples http://www.math.uni-sb.de/ag/schreyer/oliver/calendar.algebraicsurface.net/calendar.php?mode=youTube&day=18 )
00:17  * nsh thinks
00:17 < kanzure_> Anyway, the repair mechanisms are based on user preference ratings of which rules tend to work for them.
00:17 < kanzure_> These rules are for graph-rewriting.
00:17 < nsh> yeah, kanzure_, i've been pondering a lot about graph theory in biological circuits lately
00:17 < nsh> when molecular biologists and geneticists talk about networks, it all seems a bit trivial
00:18 < nsh> "here we have negative feedback, here we have a regulating entrainment of a periodic cascade"
00:18 < kanzure_> So you'll probably like my synthetic biology stuff anyway, and if xp_prg's script truly is complete (so he says - I have yet to do a line by line read of it tonight), it will let me do the automatic repair on the biology databases, generate possibilities for circuits that we don't know entirely about, *plus* maybe also annotations on experimental methods for verification. bwahah.
00:18 < nsh> it's ancient greek stuff
00:18 < nsh> kanzure_, interesting
00:18 < xp_prg> kanzure_ it will work or I will eat my shoe
00:19 < kanzure_> Sir, I would like this in writing! :)
00:19 < xp_prg> heh :>
00:19 < kanzure_> Also, do I get to choose the shoe?
00:19  * nsh will act as noteary
00:19 < xp_prg> ya
00:19 < kanzure_> Okay. It's a deal.
00:21  * nsh will have to engage in that thing which is for the weak soon
00:21 < nsh> having only done about 4h of it in the last 48
00:21 < kanzure_> Bah, weakness.
00:22  * nsh nods
00:24 < kanzure_> The problem is that rules are not going to be standardized all too well from one user to the other. It would be wonderful if rule #34 turns out to be somebody else's rule #1414, and for sufficiently small graphs this is bound to happen, but the labels of the nodes aren't necessarily going to be the same (like the names of words/concepts). 
00:31 < kanzure_> http://howmade.com/
00:31 < kanzure_> oops
00:31 < kanzure_> http://madehow.com/
00:35 < kanzure_> http://screenshots.debian.net/
01:04 < wrldpc> I want to create a site that acquires and displays all math, science, etc. lectures at public institutions.
01:04 < wrldpc> beh
01:06 < kanzure_> Videos?
01:06 < kanzure_> It's hard enough listing everything, much less aggregating posted videos.
01:07  * kanzure_ just found a book, "Extending Mechanics to the Mind". 
01:16 < kanzure_> Btw, in the queue is a gear optimization app that uses graphsynth. Apparently I'm writing some quick 3D visualization tool for seeing the finalized gear setup.
01:32 < wrldpc> Nice on the book.  Lectures:  fleshmeets.
01:33 < wrldpc> Although everything should be simulcast (?)
01:33 < wrldpc> streamed as they transpire
01:59 < gene_> who here knows about instructables?
01:59 < UtopiahGHML> <-
02:00 < UtopiahGHML> because they had some cheap touch table DIY 
02:00 < gene_> Do you know about Instructables Eric?
02:00 < gene_> guess not
02:00 < UtopiahGHML> a responsible for the site? nop, just checked bit of the content
02:00 < gene_> I think I might have confused you with someone else
02:01 < kanzure_> gene_: I think we all know about instructables.
02:01 < gene_> I know
02:01 < kanzure_> Btw, diybio recently posted one for shot glass DNA extraction stuff.
02:08 < fenn> NRF24L01 is neat.. it has way more potential than RFID
02:08 < kanzure_> reading ISO proceedings or something?
02:08  * fenn reads backlogs
02:08 < kanzure_> Hrm, I didn't see that in our backlog.
02:09 < fenn> EricWheelman_: what is an "autism apologetic"?
02:18 < fenn> what's with all the finns :)
02:20 < kanzure_> I count three.
02:21 < fenn> finn fenn same diff eh
02:22 < kanzure_> Okay, four.
02:23 < fenn> nsh eric, who is the third?
02:23 < kanzure_> Splicer.
02:24 < kanzure_> Well, he's Swedish.
02:24 < kanzure_> Close enough?
02:24 < fenn> probably the same phenomenon
02:25 < kanzure_> It does seem rather inexplicable.
02:25 < fenn> lots of swedes and finns on irc, but how many russians do you meet?
02:25 < fenn> i'm guessing they're online because it's cold and boring
02:25 < kanzure_> I am biased. The majority of Russians I know are transhumans.
02:25 < fenn> me too
02:25 < kanzure_> Though the majority of those are not on IRC.
02:26 < fenn> transhumanists*
02:26 < kanzure_> Mm, good fix there. Don't know how many "walk the walk".
02:26 < fenn> unless they have adamantium skeletons and can regenerate tissue
02:26 < fenn> there were a lot of good russian supervillains
02:26 < kanzure_> Anywho, someone in the lab is doing automated gear optimization thingies and was asking me if I'd be willing to do the 3D model stuff for it.
02:27 < kanzure_> "So how long will this take you, like March, April, what?"
02:27 < kanzure_> "Uh. Two weeks?"
02:27 < gene_> can you get it done before friday?
02:27 < gene_> I'd like to optimize some gears too
02:27 < gene_> more specifically
02:27 < kanzure_> He has the optimizer.
02:27 < gene_> a rack and pinion system
02:28 < fenn> rack and peanut
02:28 < kanzure_> But I suppose I can write the visualizer.
02:28 < fenn> what's all this about optimizing?
02:28 < fenn> i mean there arent that many parameters to change, and most of them are sold as commodities
02:29 < gene_> I can't actually obtain exact force estimates so just about any gear that fits in such n such size
02:29 < kanzure_> Apparently the inputs I have are the number of gears, configuration for each gear (diameter, and some other stuffs?), angle (as if it was at the origin and just translated to the correct location), xyz position, and whether or not it's connected to another gear (and then I'll figure out if I have to draw a damn bar/beam/thingy)
02:29 < gene_> teeth angle?
02:29 < kanzure_> fenn: Yeah, so he has a bit of "optimization" stuffs, but then after this program he runs it through a filter for the McMaster gear catalog
02:29 < fenn> rotation prolly
02:29 < kanzure_> Teeth angle is not factored into his work yet.
02:30 < fenn> guh.. why not?
02:30 < gene_> does it make involute curves?
02:30 < fenn> what are they optimizing then?
02:30 < gene_> for the teeth
02:30 < kanzure_> Nope, no teeth considerations really.
02:30 < gene_> or are the gears really just cogs
02:30 < kanzure_> fenn: Yes, so this sucks.
02:30 < kanzure_> It's graphsynth + rules for gear stuff.
02:31 < gene_> or spur gears
02:31 < kanzure_> So he has a grammar for the manipulation of graphs that represent gear circuits.
02:31 < fenn> well i'm sure you can find some programs that draw gears
02:31 < kanzure_> I was just going to write one. 
02:31 < gene_> I can't
02:31 < kanzure_> Shit, he doesn't even really care about the teeth.
02:31 < fenn> the bastard..
02:31 < kanzure_> So just draw a gear, then draw a cylinder to connect two together, and then lay them next to each other for 'connected'
02:31 < kanzure_> now, I'm sure I can be sneaky and do a default toothing thingy
02:32 < kanzure_> Hrm. No I'm not. If I just set all teeth to the same size, and then proportionally propagate each gear with a good number of teeth, will that guarantee link-up or something?
02:33 < kanzure_> number of teeth = 2*pi*r / width_of_tooth
02:33 < kanzure_> plus or minus some lee-way
02:33 < gene_> tooth profile is dependent on many factors
02:33 < fenn> no leeway
02:34 < fenn> you also have to worry about addendum/dedendum
02:34 < kanzure_> Blah?
02:34 < gene_> yup
02:34 < fenn> most people think gears are straightforward but there are a lot of hidden parameters
02:34 < gene_> you could just kludge it and make spur gears
02:35 < kanzure_> The opening demo of OpenGL is always gears. Go to the run prompt and type .. glgears
02:35 < kanzure_> Hrm. That's the wrong command. What was it?
02:35 < fenn> anyway it sounds like you could draw a cog like glxgears and get away with it
02:35 < gene_> nevermind
02:35 < kanzure_> cog?
02:35 < gene_> yeah
02:35 < gene_> cog
02:35 < kanzure_> Heh, so I was right. glxgears :)
02:35 < fenn> some anatomically inaccurate gear representation
02:36 < gene_> as in gear that interlocks crudely
02:36 < kanzure_> I'm sure somebody has imitated glxgears. I was thinking I'd just do this myself, but I guess I could be lazy about it and go steal code.
02:36 < fenn> there was a python version of glxgears somewhere
02:37 < kanzure_> First result on Google for 'glxgears source' is the opengl.org forums
02:37 < fenn> http://code.google.com/p/pyglet/source/browse/trunk/experimental/glxgears.py
02:37 < kanzure_> Ooh, even has a gear() function.
02:38 < kanzure_> Yay parameters.
02:38  * fenn squints at that code
02:39 < kanzure_-> http://cvsweb.xfree86.org/cvsweb/xc/programs/glxgears/glxgears.c?rev=1.3
02:39 < gene_> wait a minute
02:39 < gene_> your telling me
02:39 < gene_> that OGL
02:39 < gene_> has a gear() function
02:40 < kanzure_> No.
02:40  * fenn waits for gene to catch up
02:40 < kanzure_> It's defined in glxgears.c
02:40 < fenn> kanzure_: there is an X screensaver with more realistic gears
02:40 < gene_> ok
02:40 < wrldpc> Is there any way to download every email I've ever sent/received from my gmail account into a text file?
02:40 < kanzure_> How do I access X11 screensavers anyway? I always do away with that crap.
02:40 < wrldpc> Sorry if this is OT.
02:40 < gene_> if you find something for drawing gears tell me, ok?
02:41 < fenn> xscreensaver-demo i think
02:41 < kanzure_> wrldpc: No, but you can get your emails downloaded into your mail client, which can be configured to store in mbox or other formats.
02:41 < wrldpc> email address
02:41 < wrldpc> sry
02:41 < kanzure_> wrldpc: You can only do this once though. Be careful.
02:41 < wrldpc> hmm .. no way to harvest the addies?
02:41 < kanzure_> You could write a scraper I guess.
02:41 < wrldpc> mm
02:41 < kanzure_> gene_: It's not enough to draw the gears. I'm guessing you want it converted to SLDPART or STL, yes?
02:44 < fenn> well this is weird, if you're bored; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racetrack_memory
02:45 < kanzure_> fenn: What would you think about buying a Shakti?
02:45 < fenn> is that a god helmet?
02:45 < fenn> its just some coils and a basebal cap right/
02:45 < kanzure_> Right.
02:45 < fenn> i think you should read the papers and write an open source version instead
02:46 < kanzure_> Write?
02:46 < xp_prg> kanzure_ you at home yet?
02:46 < fenn> uh. code
02:46 < kanzure_> It's my understanding that it's not the code that matters much.
02:46 < kanzure_> but instead the hardware ..
02:46 < fenn> it has to output some kind of signal to the coils
02:46 < kanzure_> xp_prg: Yes.
02:46 < fenn> i dont know what this signal is or how they came up with it though
02:46 < xp_prg> have you tried the script yet?
02:46 < kanzure_> fenn: How would I write something which I couldn't test?
02:46 < kanzure_> xp_prg: No.
02:46 < xp_prg> ok, just curious
02:47 < fenn> kanzure_: you build the hardware, which should be easy because it's just some coils powered by transistors from a parallel port
02:47 < kanzure_> xp_prg: I'll get to it though, if it does what you say it does then you'll see me get all happy or something.
02:47 < fenn> at least that's my understanding
02:47 < xp_prg> awsome
02:47 < xp_prg> just wanting to know your feedback is all
02:47 < fenn> unless you have more money than time;sense
02:47 < kanzure_> If it's just transistors => coil, then I've been an idiot.
02:47 < xp_prg> well I am off to work out
02:47 < kanzure_> Exercise is for the weak!
02:47 < kanzure_> (So is sleep.)
02:48 < xp_prg> well I am weak then :>
02:48 < fenn> i know a certain unemployed electronics tech in indiana who would be happy to build you one for the price of a shakti
02:48 < kanzure_> fenn: EricWheelman_ was wanting to sell one to us.
02:49 < fenn> ok this makes more sense now that it's a piece of hardware
02:49 < fenn> he was talking about torrents and tech support
02:49 < kanzure_> Oh, maybe I'm the one who is confused.
02:49 < fenn> it's probably both
02:49 < kanzure_> I think he was talking about also distributing the software.
02:49 < kanzure_> right
02:49 < fenn> so, what is one paying for, the software or the hardware?
02:50 < fenn> i guess the best way would be to reverse engineer a shakti and make open source software for it
02:50 < kanzure_> Hardware, I'm not worried about the software personally, but if he wants to be kind and send it off through my aspienet or whatever you want to call the phenomena of these hard drives being sent to me, ..
02:50 < kanzure_> Right.
02:51 < fenn> i cant imagine they've made much progress since the original research
02:51 < fenn> ok it's shower and bed for me (manual labor sucks)
02:51 < kanzure_> Shaktis aren't something I've been thinking to stalk on ebay.
02:53 < kanzure_> gene_: For the record, what's the plastic? HLPE?
03:46 < kanzure_-> http://news.cnet.com/8301-17912_3-10086401-72.html Intel health care station for uploading biomedical data to health care providers
04:40 < gene__> Kanzure you're gonna buy a shakti?
04:41 < gene__> it's HDPE
04:41 < gene__> not HLPE
04:41 < gene__> no such thing as HLPE as far as I know
04:42 < gene__> now all that intel health station needs is a matter compiler
04:43 < gene__> you there Kanzure?
05:26 < kanzure_> Yes, gene__.
05:26 < kanzure_> Was just playing around with some Spyro.
05:28 < procto> http://www.mockingeye.com/index.php/2008/11/11/processing-user-goals-and-narratives/
05:28 < procto> new post :>
05:35 < kanzure_> procto: That was less interesting than I was hoping for. :(
05:47 < procto> kanzure_: what information were you expecting?
05:47 < kanzure_> Narratives, goals, subjectivity, and POVs.
05:49 < procto> in what context?
05:49 < procto> a discourse-level analysis?
05:50 < kanzure_> Something like that.
05:50 < procto> well, that's not my provenance
05:50 < procto> I just want users to do shit better
05:50 < procto> this is a post as part of a series :>
--- Log closed Tue Nov 11 06:15:43 2008
--- Log opened Tue Nov 11 06:15:54 2008
06:15 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 18 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 18 normal]
06:16 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 57 secs
06:45 -!- percent_ is now known as jihaaad
07:02 < splicer> uhoh
07:29 < ybit> thoughts? :: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=internet+addiction&hl=en&lr=&btnG=Search
08:16 < kanzure_> ~3x;pof
09:04 < kanzure_> ~3x;pof
10:43 < EricWheelman_> It seems there hasn't been much interest in handing the money?
10:49 < EricWheelman_> I'll try to get the signals
10:51 < kanzure_> '/.;~~3~ 9\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
10:51 < UtopiahGHML> (sometimes I wonder what's the signal/noise ratio here)
11:03 < UtopiahGHML> Spread The Word - http://www.sprword.com/ - looks like thir Must Watch Section has the vastest and still best organized documentary section Ive seen so far
11:05 < UtopiahGHML> (and for those who will complain that theyr are not documentaries Ill agree and still recommend http://documentaryisneverneutral.com/ from HistoryIsAWeapon.org ) 
11:13 < UtopiahGHML> too much "conspiracy theory" presentation for me but still, very good work to gather so much so cleanly.
11:24 < kanzure_> `uh
11:24 < kanzure_> I slept on the keyboard apparently.
11:27 < EricWheelman_> Hi
11:29 < EricWheelman_> How can I maximize a volume of an audio clip while ensuring it doesn't clip? If I use normalize 100%, can it still result in clipping.
11:34 < kanzure_> Hm. I don't know.
11:36 < UtopiahGHML> EricWheelman_: try Audacity and eventually ask in their own channel #audacity
11:37 < EricWheelman_> sure.
11:38 < kanzure_> EricWheelman_: What's the Shakti setup anyway?
11:39 < EricWheelman_> what do you mean
11:39 < kanzure_> Yesterday fenn was originally thinking that it's just a few transistors sticking out of the COM/LTP/RS232 port wired up to the coils.
11:41 < EricWheelman_> it's not. it's worse than that in that it's driven by audio.
11:41 < kanzure_> From the audio port?
11:41 < EricWheelman_> yes
11:41 < kanzure_> wtf :)
11:42 < kanzure_> And then what's the hardware? Some sort of signal processor wired up to .. lots of inexplicable electronic circuitry coupled to the coil?
11:43 < EricWheelman_> the magnetic field is maximally about 40-50 mG. he claims about 25% works best for men.
11:43 < EricWheelman_> there is no hardware.
11:43 < kanzure_> 'scuse me? Then how is the magnetic field generated?
11:43 < UtopiahGHML> (all those sound like the scientology magical machine to me)
11:44 < EricWheelman_> by the coils, but of course i meant besides those.
11:44 < kanzure_> So there is hardware.
11:44 < EricWheelman_> scientologists use GSR, plain and simple. it works but it's no wonder machine.
11:45 < EricWheelman_> kan: of course ; )
11:45 < EricWheelman_> murphy claims that this can be used to create experiences like achieved by persinger
11:45 < UtopiahGHML> EricWheelman_: have study on that? effectiveness
11:46 < EricWheelman_> Persinger has published papers
11:46 < kanzure_> I think nsh wins for hostname. eduroam-67.uta.fi. Short and simple.
11:47 < EricWheelman_> I don't personally believe they are the same for Persinger has reported on using stronger fields.
11:47 < EricWheelman_> A bit stronger
11:47 < EricWheelman_> Does it mean this can't work. no.
11:48 < EricWheelman_> If you get the signals for free, the rest is almost free. I think you can buy the cords and stuff for about $25 including shipping.
11:48 < EricWheelman_> maybe $30
11:49 < kanzure_> Audio cords are simple; it's the other, more exotic hardware that I was asking about. (It's also possible that you don't know, but I'm hoping this isn't the case.)
11:51 < EricWheelman_> I'll give you a link to the coils, wait a sec
11:51 < kanzure_> Buying a new Shakti is only $140.
11:52 < EricWheelman_> That's not the price of the flagship version! there's some more signals there.
11:53 < UtopiahGHML> EricWheelman_: any FOSS version?
11:53 < EricWheelman_> http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/36-010 $2.29 * 8 = 18.32
11:54 < EricWheelman_> foss?
11:54 < UtopiahGHML> free and open source software
11:54 < UtopiahGHML> having the plan and being able to understand how it works
11:54 < EricWheelman_> You don't need that. But a Winamp DSP plugin would be nice
11:55 < EricWheelman_> for the volume fractalization
11:55 < UtopiahGHML> I like my beer fresh and my software open ;)
11:56 < EricWheelman_> the fractal plugin has these settings:lowest volume (def. 50)
11:56 < EricWheelman_> milliseconds between volume changes (default 20)
11:56 < EricWheelman_> percentage of volume change (10)
11:56 < EricWheelman_> fractalization percent (5)
11:57 < EricWheelman_> I doubt they use anything more complicated but a simple mandelbrot or something..
11:57 < EricWheelman_> if even that
11:58 < EricWheelman_> Utopiah: Sure.
11:58 < UtopiahGHML> (actually I prefer wine but anyway)
12:03 < kanzure_> Anybody on adrafinil?
12:03 < EricWheelman_> (Kanzure:I use moda) About the DIY research you do/plan to do : will any of it be of personal use?
12:03  * UtopiahGHML is on nothing
12:04 < UtopiahGHML> "High on life" ;)
12:04 < EricWheelman_> Personal as in possibly helping pharmaceutical research/stuff like that
12:04 < kanzure_> EricWheelman_: By "personal use" do you mean to ask if I have goals for its use?
12:04 < kanzure_> Hrm.
12:04 < kanzure_> I'm actually not sure.
12:05 < EricWheelman_> I'm contributing to Rosetta and FAH but it seems that it might take a decade or more until the research gears up.
12:05 < kanzure_> Rosetta? FAH?
12:05 < EricWheelman_> so that useful drugs would start come out
12:05 < EricWheelman_> Rosetta@Home and Folding@Home
12:06 < EricWheelman_> Current smart drugs are so-so at best
12:06 < EricWheelman_> Cost/benefit is awful
12:06 < UtopiahGHML> EricWheelman_: I don't remember hearing your answer, have you read "The doors of perceptions" by Aldous Huxley?
12:07 < EricWheelman_> I mean that if you play with stem cells, do you think you might come up with something that pros haven't figured out?
12:07 < EricWheelman_> and that might help you too, at least in theory
12:07 < EricWheelman_> Oh sorry... I think I haven't read it. I've read Moksha though.
12:08 < EricWheelman_> why the q?
12:08 < UtopiahGHML> well because from my (little) understanding of your objectives I think you could benefit from reading it
12:10 < kanzure_> EricWheelman_: If I had my way with stem cells, I'd be interested in pursuing some artificial womb work and tissue engineering. Professionals have been able to do this under highly constrained conditions, it's just a matter of being able to put some of the pieces together, figure out the right formulas for womb liquids, etc.
12:11 < EricWheelman_> Artificial wombs... why exactly?
12:12 < kanzure_> Are you versed in transhumanism?
12:12 < EricWheelman_> Hmm... Do you mean that I might learn more from the book than taking the medicine it mentions?
12:12 < kanzure_> Is that directed to me?
12:13 < EricWheelman_> Kanzure: No I wouldn't say so. I have read something about them though. Is that part of the more distant scenarios? Saving women from the pain of birth or birth complications should not be the issue because I believe that there might be negative consequences.
12:14 < UtopiahGHML> EricWheelman_: Huxley writtings are, IMHO, very worthy of the time of anybody interested in transhumanism
12:14 < kanzure_> Nope. None of that. Although that would be an interesting/positive side effect I guess.
12:14 < EricWheelman_> Is there a way to not have to write the person's name I'm addressing?
12:15 < EricWheelman_> oh sorry that's software dependent : )
12:15 < UtopiahGHML> EricWheelman_: type the beginning then TAB key
12:15 < kanzure_> EricWheelman_: You can do first few letters + TAB.
12:15 < UtopiahGHML> it's called completion
12:15 < kanzure_> "Tab completion".
12:15 < EricWheelman_> UtopiahGHML: Oh wow cool.
12:15 < kanzure_> Heh.
12:15 < kanzure_> SCIENCE!
12:16 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: yeah as difficult as it gets : )
12:17 < EricWheelman_> UtopiahGHML: hmm... interesting connection (with the book). I'll keep it in mind. I've always thought it was more about the process of opening up or smth like that
12:17 < kanzure_> There are some uses of artificial wombs, such as automated cloning over a longer lifetime than women live or productively reproduce. It's not meant to be a replacement for women, or to keep them from pain or silly things like that (that's what anesthetics are for).
12:18 < kanzure_> Rather it's because I'm interested in this general concept of "closure". Closure of the supply chain and manufacturing processes within me and around me in the world -- so this is why you see me interested in open source manufacturing initiatives, for instance.
12:18 < UtopiahGHML> closure :)
12:18 < kanzure_> EricWheelman_: "Opening up"? How so?
12:19 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: well, opening the Door... and walking to the other side...
12:20 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: I don't understand. Do you want to make 'everything' yourself? (ultiamtely)
12:20 < UtopiahGHML> The Doors of Perception http://mescaline.com/huxley.htm
12:21 < kanzure_> Doing as much as possible with as little as possible until I can do everything with nothing.
12:21 < kanzure_> EricWheelman_: Have you ever heard the saying, "you are what you cache"?
12:22 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: no? is that a joke?
12:22 < kanzure_> No joke.
12:22 < kanzure_> http://fusionanomaly.net/ is where I picked up on the phrase.
12:22 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: is it more like self-sufficiency?
12:23 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: if you're not caching
12:23  * UtopiahGHML left for lunch
12:24 < kanzure_> Maybe. It's not an environmentalist-driven idea.
12:24 < kanzure_> Have you ever read the extropian manifesto?
12:24 < kanzure_> The extropian manifesto 3.1 or something. It has a list of 10 "values".
12:26 < kanzure_> http://www.maxmore.com/extprn3.html
12:26  * kanzure_ goes away. Cycle starting again ..
15:18 < UtopiahGHML> wood made wind turbine http://www.otherpower.com/wisconsin_seminar_08.shtml :)
17:16 < kanzure__> So how should I structure this web app? 
17:16 < kanzure__> Users are going to be waiting a terribly long time for all of their generated graphs.
17:16 < kanzure__> Should it just email them when their buildset is complete?
17:17 < UtopiahGHML> RSS feed with newly generated graphs to which they can subscribe
17:17 < kanzure__> I was thinking I'd store all of the results in a /tmpdir/users/$username/$sessionID/resultant_graphs (organized by filename: depth_)
17:17 < kanzure__> Well the idea is that they want to select which graphs they like as they start showing up, so that the system will show them less like that one.
17:17 < kanzure__> So either this means there needs to be a way to communicate with the backend generation process,
17:17 < kanzure__> or something else.
17:18 < kanzure__> For instance, should I leave the depth in the search tree as a variable for the user?
17:18 < kanzure__> Going anything over 5 or 6 levels deep for more than 100 rules becomes retarded. 
17:18 < kanzure__> At the moment there's 100,000 randomly generated rules for graph rewriting. Some percent will match a user's input graph.
17:19 < kanzure__> So having the user wait for stuff to be shown is kind of stupid. I guess it can write to an RSS feed of the current/latest results. And then the user can do up/down voting, or comparative voting or some other plugin. 
17:19 < UtopiahGHML> guess you could cache the most popular ones and generate the rest with notification mechanisms if it's slow
17:20 < kanzure__> I suppose that also means that there has to be a way to stop the backend to stop generating the graphs if it's going down a path that the user hates.
17:20 < kanzure__> The "most popular ones" - no, it's not like that.
17:20 < UtopiahGHML> the most used ones?
17:20 < kanzure__> The chances of you wanting to make an N>10 graph that is similar to somebody else's N>10 graph, and then that you like the depth-18 graph just like that person likes the depth-18 graph, that's incredibly ridiculously unlikely.
17:21 < UtopiahGHML> yes but is it unlikely for the same user that will come again later?
17:21 < kanzure__> (depth-18 graph as in, some graph in the set of a depth-18, taking a certain route for the graphs from level 1, 2, 3, .. 17.)
17:21 < kanzure__> That's fine, saving graphs for a single user is doable, but that doesn't tell me how to structure the overall system so that a user just doesn't sit there waiting for the full tree to be traversed.
17:21 < kanzure__> Anyway, I guess I've answered my own question.
17:22 < kanzure__> I'll need a way to tell the server to stop generating graphs if it's going down a certain arm of the tree.
17:22 < kanzure__> and have it pop up graphs that are of interest every so often.
17:22 < kanzure__> (pop to RSS or whatever)
17:23 < UtopiahGHML> Id still recommend RSS, you could eventually process the feed to send email or anything else it's just XML
17:24 < kanzure__> I don't think you know what I'm talking about. heh'
17:24 < kanzure__> That's not my issue.
17:25 < UtopiahGHML> API of the generation process, result linked by RSS
17:26 < kanzure__> There is no "final result" until it's all finished.
17:26 < kanzure__> If you have a 100,000 factorial graph, that's not going to be for a very long time.
17:27 < UtopiahGHML> you can make feeds with intermediate result and others with final result if you want
17:27 < UtopiahGHML> you can generate as many feeds as you want, not just one total.
17:27 < UtopiahGHML> they can be per user, etc
17:27 < UtopiahGHML> so yep I still fail to see the problem.
17:35 < kanzure__> The problem is that the traversal algorithm doesn't have the necessary hooks for stack jumping.
17:37 < UtopiahGHML> sounds like another question from the initial notification one
17:39 < kanzure__> The only reason you'd show them a graph is because you want their feedback.
17:39 < kanzure__> So it's implicitly tied in the basis of the app .. no reason to show them stuff if you don't want to feed that preference information back into the system.
17:39 < kanzure__> Otherwise we'd just generate all graphs, feed them into a supercomputer and run CFD until oblivion.
17:39 < kanzure__> Which, I might add, would be awesome anyway.
17:41 < UtopiahGHML> so? being web app or not doesn't make any difference, you make a clean API that make the computations, you output results and handle feedback like any other input.
17:41 < kanzure__> The computations are not "finished". That's why I mentioned a traversal algorithm + stack jumping.
17:42 < kanzure__> Normally when you write a recursive algorithm you have it go down the stack until it hits rock bottom, and then it bubbles back up and calls all of the "returns". That's not very useful if you've discovered that your 18th arm of your graph is stupid. A kill 9 signal for spawned procs would work, but I'm not sure keeping a spawned proc for each arm is a good idea ;-)
17:43 < UtopiahGHML> during a recursive call your process or thread or whatever can make I/O or read in memory so you can send commands and stop the execution
17:44 < kanzure__> Yeah, but it's not that clearcut. You don't want to be reading the command queue at every start of the recursive function.
17:44 < kanzure__> I guess if the command queue was shared as a global variable and there were conditional statements poisoning the whole stack.
17:46 < UtopiahGHML> Id recommend some readings on threads management and would suggest not to mix optimization with architecture concern too early.
17:46 < UtopiahGHML> since I cant help more
17:46 < UtopiahGHML> because I dont understand the idea.
17:46 < kanzure__> What do you understand of what I've said?
17:47 < kanzure__> (rubber ducky method)
17:48 < UtopiahGHML> you have to traverse graphs in order to build visual reprentations of them for users. They are requested by users with specific depths and positions on the the graph. The time of generation is superior to few seconds thus can't be displayed directly.
17:48 < kanzure__> Hi nsh.
17:48 < kanzure__> Not quite.
17:48 < kanzure__> There are a number of "rules" that rewrite graphs into different structures.
17:48 < kanzure__> These "rules" are automatically applied by the generator/traversal-thingy. 
17:49 < kanzure__> The user doesn't request a graph as much as the generator (somehow, undecided as of yet) picks one to show the user (to test an internal preference model)
17:49 < kanzure__> Picks more than one, actually.
17:50 < kanzure__> So after applying rules 10, 15, 39410, 2411, there might be 10,000 more rules to apply at this level in the graph. 
17:50 < UtopiahGHML> so it's human supervision?
17:50 < kanzure__> Yes.
17:52 < UtopiahGHML> well I would still do the same thing and make the user voting a call of the API
17:52 < UtopiahGHML> each thread would then read user input asynchronously and move on thanks to this
17:53 < UtopiahGHML> and user would read the ongoing result async with RSS notifications.
17:56 < UtopiahGHML> internal computing shouldn't matter to the end user
17:56 < UtopiahGHML> it's withing the API, that's why making a clean interface usually helps.
17:57 < UtopiahGHML> whatever the complexity or the unfinished aspect, it doesn't regard the users, he's using the software through an interface.
17:58 < UtopiahGHML> (even if you think you use the users ;)
18:00 < kanzure__> Yes, but you're not actually telling me about dynamic-programming.
18:01 < kanzure__> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_programming
18:03 < kanzure__> Actually, dynamic programming isn't fair since the solutions to different suboptimizations don't arrive (a lag) immediately, and they may or may not ever arrive, dependent on whether or not the "selector" (for what to show the user) selects graphs and whether or not the user gives feedback at all.
18:20 < xp_prg> kanzure__ what is the verdict man?
18:24 < kanzure__> I'm writing the rest of the system as we speak.
18:25 < xp_prg> well do you like the script or not?
18:26 < kanzure__> Yes, I do.
18:26 < kanzure__> Good job.
18:27 < xp_prg> cool!
18:28 < xp_prg> did you ever get hy3s to compile and work
18:28 < xp_prg> ?
18:28 < kanzure__> Nah, I haven't been trying.
18:29 < kanzure__> I'm not worrying about it quite yet. There's a few other things that I want to solve first.
18:29 < kanzure__> At the moment I'm working on a way to control where in the stack of a recursive function a program happens to be.
18:29 < xp_prg> so how will you use this script again?
18:30 < kanzure__> I'm going to rewrite the initializer to include most of the variables that you ask for user input, plus or minus a few functions for modifying the internal variables of the class, and then it'll act as an extension to graphsynth and the other apps I've been working on.
18:31 < kanzure__> Then, there's a few subapplications I'd like to apply this stuff to --
18:31 < kanzure__> 1) Automatic repair of incomplete, or imcompletely studied biological networks.
18:31 < kanzure__> 2) Automatic generation of synthetic biological circuits for users given a "function structure" or "specification file" of various requirements for a circuit.
18:32 < kanzure__> 3) Tie in to hy3s eventually for pretty graphs.
18:32 < kanzure__> For #2 there's a database tie-in that I've been meaning to include to allow pulling of chemicals from PubChem and other databases, which provide the rate equations for different stoichiometries for different genes and their expression and so on.
18:33 < xp_prg> sweet!  anything else I can do to help?
18:33 < xp_prg> want me to work on getting hy3s to work?
18:33 < kanzure__> It doesn't?
18:33 < xp_prg> well I haven't compiled it
18:34 < xp_prg> I know it works because the sbml is the same as was generated etc... by the designer
18:34 < kanzure__> So you haven't ran hy3s?
18:34 < kanzure__> Why not just use synbioss?
18:34 < xp_prg> cuz synbioss is a graphical app, and adds a layer of complexity not needed
18:35 < xp_prg> it just feeds directly into hy3s
18:35 < xp_prg> why not cut out the middle man
18:35 < kanzure__> Then how is it that synbioss works but hy3s doesn't?
18:36 < xp_prg> I haven't compiled hy3s, it works, relax, just through synbiosis at the moment, I was working on compiling hy3s on linux so synbiossis was no longer needed, want me to do that?
18:36 < kanzure__> fenn: What I'm writing with the dynamic programming and the delayed feedback and the "reasoner" here seems terribly similar to what I'd think a 'matter compiler' would end up looking like, except this is just for the design aspect (material availability, user preferences, user constraints)
18:36 < kanzure__> xp_prg: sure, a 'make' file would be awesome.
18:37 < xp_prg> kanzure__ ok, I prefer a perl file if that is ok :>
18:37 < kanzure__> That's fine, but there should be a 'make file generator' out there.
18:37 < kanzure__> Unless hy3s is scripted and not compiled?
18:38 < xp_prg> well the perl script will automate its installation regardless, it is fortran, it uses the ./configure, make make install approach
18:42 < kanzure__> it's fortran? Hah. Okay.
19:45 < kanzure__> The First Global Warming Refugee State? @ luf-team / Eric Hunting
19:45 < kanzure__> http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/nov/11/climatechange-endangered-habitats-maldives
20:03 < EricWheelman_> 2000 model Neurophone for sale
20:04 < EricWheelman_> (just in case you know someone who might be interested) sound quality is reminiscent of the original sound blaster but not as good
20:09 < UtopiahGHML> kanzure__: http://www.eatliver.com/i.php?n=3034 so far it fits the model
20:10 < fenn> EricWheelman_: have you used the neurophone yourself?
20:11 < fenn> kanzure__: i think you're doing the graph traversal all wrong.. have you ever played with the 'ghost diagram' program?
20:12 < EricWheelman_> Yes though it was years ago. I can't tell if it helped : ) I used a text-voice software to get audio files out of learning material and then listened to it while I slept. It's a good idea but it didn't work for me : )
20:12 < fenn> if it helped? i just want to know if it works at all (you can hear noises non-acoustically)
20:12 < EricWheelman_> Oh yes.
20:12 < EricWheelman_> The new models reportedly give hi-fi quality.
20:13 < fenn> do you think the ultrasound -> lower harmonics theory might be correct?
20:13 < EricWheelman_> what is that?
20:13 < fenn> for example, what happens if you put the pads up to a regular object, can you hear noises?
20:13 < fenn> or if you then put the object to your head
20:13 < EricWheelman_> Do you mean leaking ...?
20:14 < EricWheelman_> I'm not sure i've tried putting them on an object.
20:14 < EricWheelman_> Gotta try.
20:14 < fenn> i mean the ultrasound from the neurophone resonates with lower frequencies in your bones/ear bones
20:14 < fenn> and to test this you could see if it causes noise in other objects
20:15 < fenn> or at least that's one alternative explanation i've seen
20:15  * xp_prg wants to create a cell based phone
20:20 < EricWheelman_> have you people tried light and sound?
20:21 < EricWheelman_> i guess not
20:23 < kanzure__> fenn: No, I've not played with ghost-diagram. What is that?
20:23 < kanzure__> Also, I've been chasing a phantom bug for the past 30 minutes.
20:24 < kanzure__> I see designGraph.saveGraphToGraphvizDot(filename, myHostGraph object thingy); this throws an exception complaining about a NullObjectException
20:24 < kanzure__> However, designGraph.saveGraphToXml() with the same parameters does not.
20:24 < kanzure__> Both methods are of type public static void, and both have practically the same inner content.
20:25 < fenn> kanzure__: ghost diagram tries to make closed loops until it either satisfies all constraints or covers the screen. if it finds an intersection that will never satisfy constraints it backs up and tries again with different choices in the "past"
20:26 < fenn> i think you should do that, (make a decision) rather than trying to pretend you have a quantum computer and doing every possibility
20:26 < kanzure__> Yeah, invalid rules (that would violate constraints) are not chosen in my traversal algorithm.
20:27 < fenn> but you have many valid rules.. so you have to pick one
20:27 < kanzure__> Over time the user builds a 'profile' with the 'reasoner'/modeling-system.
20:28 < kanzure__> Only one rule? That doesn't make any sense. These rules are for graph rewriting, the application of a rule doesn't make the graph "inherently bad" or anything - that's completely up to the user.
20:29 < fenn> could you explain what a "rule" is again?
20:29 < kanzure__> say your graph has a->b
20:29 < kanzure__> a rule sees "a->b" and replaces with "a->b->c"
20:29 < fenn> ok a substitution
20:29 < kanzure__> yes
20:29 < kanzure__> btw, you already knew that
20:29 < fenn> how do you get that rule?
20:29 < fenn> (i forgot, because the name "rule" is stupid and doesnt mean anything)
20:30 < kanzure__> Ideally from the repoistories. 
20:31 < fenn> the way you phrased it makes it sound like a markov chain
20:32 < fenn> you should check out ghost diagram
21:06 < EricWheelman_> If you are interested in smart drugs, you might wanna check this: http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=24970
21:07 < EricWheelman_> DMAE+piracetam have synergism so adding DMAE might work well
21:07 < EricWheelman_> it's usually expensive but that deal might make it affordable.
21:08 < EricWheelman_> Oh btw kanzure, why did you ask about adra?
21:10 < EricWheelman_> supposedly keeps awake and more focused for long periods (with a big dose) without causing jitters
21:14 < kanzure__> Adra is a legal chemical that is converted into modafinil by the stomach.
21:14 < kanzure__> I don't need another stimulant, but I was just thinking.
21:14 < kanzure__> EricWheelman_: Yeah, I hang with imminst from time to time.
21:14 < kanzure__> I was living with Michael Anissimov for a bit.
21:15 < kanzure__> The *acetams are legendary.
21:15 < fenn> are they?
21:15 < fenn> i have 1kg of piracetam here from ebay
21:16 < xp_prg> piracetam?
21:16 < xp_prg> what is that?
21:16 < fenn> a modified amino acid
21:16 < fenn> supposedly makes you smarter, though as far as i can tell just makes it easier to tell when you are being bullshitted
21:16 < xp_prg> cool
21:17 < fenn> be afraid, xp_prg 
21:19 < EricWheelman_> YMMV. WHy did you buy 1 kilo before sampling it? At least you can legally sell it on in the states.
21:20 < EricWheelman_> Phenylpiracetam is classified as doping.
21:20 < fenn> because it was $35
21:20 < fenn> doping for what? sports?
21:20 < EricWheelman_> yes
21:20 < kanzure__> Do you have constant filters running over ebay, fenn? or was that just luck of the draw in finding that on ebay?
21:20 < kanzure__> maybe it's common on ebay. Nevermind.
21:20 < fenn> just luck
21:20 < fenn> or something
21:21 < EricWheelman_> $35 including shipping is a good deal, otherwise it's just the normal price
21:21 < fenn> i was actually looking for hydergine, but i guess that's superduper expensive
21:21 < EricWheelman_> I don't recall that doing anything for me
21:21 < fenn> i had read about its effects on cat brains, keeping them alive much longer without oxygen, so i decided i should take it for my own good
21:22 < fenn> never know when you're going to get hit by a car or something
21:22 < EricWheelman_> Logical.
21:22 < fenn> it kinda gives me mild indigestion though, and i dont especially like seeing through everyone's lies
21:23 < xp_prg> man this is amazing to me
21:23 < EricWheelman_> I thought you realized that had been conned by the racetam seller : )
21:23 < xp_prg> I didn't know such things existed!
21:23 < kanzure__> Chemicals?
21:23 < fenn> xp_prg google "nootropics"
21:24 < xp_prg> do they serve those at "smart bars" ?
21:24  * kanzure__ is on a supposed 'nootropic'.
21:24 < fenn> prolly
21:24 < kanzure__> "Smart bars" are healthy-candy-bars usually ..
21:24 < kanzure__> They come in little wrappers in shoddy 7-11 stores.
21:24 < fenn> is this like some kind of diet food?
21:25 < kanzure__> Yes. It's the type that looks like a marketing scam (it is).
21:25 < kanzure__> Actually, I don't know if it's a scam.
21:25 < kanzure__> Food science isn't something I've investigated.
21:25 < fenn> http://static.flickr.com/55/129808236_ec5ce6fef6_m.jpg
21:25  * kanzure__ leaves. Will be back on in 20 minutes.
21:25 < EricWheelman_> The imminst craze about nootropics is something I no longer understand. And even less the fuzz about life extension supplements when even resveratrol has no (?) human research.
21:27 < kanzure__> Yes, it's somewhat of a .. cult.
21:27 < fenn> kinda hard to investigate life extension supplements, since they take decades to prove
21:28 < EricWheelman_> Isn't there a way to test metabolics for example without it taking years?
21:28 < EricWheelman_> With metabolics I mean the pathways and stuff
21:29 < fenn> maybe, but there are a lot of metabolites
21:29 < xp_prg> I want to make a radio with cells
21:29 < xp_prg> that is powered with photosynthesis
21:29 < kanzure__> And I want to build a galaxy.
21:29  * kanzure__ really, really goes this time.
21:30 < EricWheelman_> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2257925
21:30 < EricWheelman_> Ex vivo metrics
21:31 < xp_prg> that is crazy!!!!
21:31 < EricWheelman_> sure is
21:32 < EricWheelman_> fenn: do you take anything else besides pira?
21:32 < xp_prg> that is like straight of frankenstein man
21:33 < EricWheelman_> fenn: and with what dose
21:33 < fenn> i dont even take piracetam
21:33 < fenn> oh, lately i've been taking maca
21:33 < fenn> but it doesnt do anything for me
21:33 < EricWheelman_> I just figured that might reduce the need for animal testing. great
21:33 < xp_prg> and those are real machines?
21:33 < xp_prg> designed for this purpose?
21:34 < fenn> machines?
21:34 < EricWheelman_> Human organs
21:34 < fenn> for hosting the organs?
21:34 < EricWheelman_> perfused by a machine?
21:35  * xp_prg faints from the horror
21:35 < xp_prg> how much is one of those machines, I want one :>
21:35 < EricWheelman_> That is great. When that system spreads, they can actually make use of my body
21:36 < fenn> oh, EricWheelman_ when i take piracetam i usualy take 2x by weight amount of lecithin, or i get a weird sort of headache
21:36 < EricWheelman_> fenn: haven't heard of that effect..
21:36 < xp_prg> fenn I want that for christmas ok?
21:37 < fenn> does anyone else think it's odd that there _still_ isnt an artificial blood substitute?
21:37 < bkero> Isn't there?
21:37 < EricWheelman_> i'm pretty sure there is
21:37 < bkero> What about perfluorochlorides?
21:37 < bkero> Look up 'cray blood'
21:37 < EricWheelman_> I was a JW so I should know : )
21:37 < xp_prg> JW?
21:37 < bkero> If you look at blood as an oxygen delivery method, it's easily replicatable.
21:37 < EricWheelman_> Jehovah's Witness
21:37 < fenn> bkero: but that's bright blue and turns to jello on contact with air :)
21:38 < fenn> bkero: http://www.travelblog.org/Oceania/Australia/Queensland/Cooktown/blog-247848.html
21:38 < bkero> fenn: Er, it's been used as artificial blood before
21:38 < xp_prg> ok I have the weirdest question known to man, can I take a womb and put it into one of those machines?
21:39 < EricWheelman_> what?
21:39 < EricWheelman_> umm...
21:39 < fenn> bkero: are you talking about something like in the movie 'abyss'?
21:39 < EricWheelman_> You want a clone army?
21:39 < bkero> fenn: no
21:39 < fenn> bkero: from supercomputers or from lobsters?
21:39 < xp_prg> ya
21:40 < bkero> open http://people.uwec.edu/AKGUNE/CFMIT/web/computer.html
21:40 < bkero> Supercomputers
21:40 < bkero> I guess it's called Fluorinert
21:40 < EricWheelman_> Seize a stranger on the street and then cut her up
21:40 < bkero> "The coolant, called Fluorinert liquid was sometimes used as a human blood substitute during surgery." 
21:40 < xp_prg> but like can the womb be made to work by itself?
21:41 < fenn> bkero: that's how the breathing fluid worked in 'abyss'
21:41 < EricWheelman_> I highly doubt it's that simple.
21:41 < xp_prg> well they transplant wombs into men now
21:41 < EricWheelman_> no they don't
21:41 < xp_prg> so I think it is just blood to the organ that drives it right?
21:41 < xp_prg> Eric yes they do
21:41 < fenn> ah see it's even in the wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorinert
21:41 < EricWheelman_> link
21:43 < fenn> oo I want a womb transplant, where do i sign up!
21:43 < fenn> could i impregnate myself?
21:43 < EricWheelman_> So in your scenario the womb would draw nutrients from a container... I wonder how the child is affected by hearing the humm of the machine compared with a heartbeat etc
21:44 < xp_prg> fenn well you need an egg, but you could go invitro
21:44 < xp_prg> Eric this has been done, can't find the link though
21:44 < fenn> hmm. i want a XXY clone
21:45 < bkero> Fluorinert is a blood substitute in that it serves as an oxygen delivery system.  That's it though.
21:45 < kanzure_> I thought there was an artificial blood replacement.
21:45 < fenn> and a XX clone with the same X as the XXY, and see how they compare
21:45 < bkero> Nutrients, and pathogen removal isn't done yet
21:45 < kanzure_> xp_prg: Yeah, look at my bookmarks on artificial wombs.
21:46 < kanzure_> Kuwabara's research in Japan did some artificial wombs.
21:46 < fenn> pathogen removal is overkill
21:46 < fenn> it just needs to fix the whole blood donation problem
21:46 < fenn> you'd think they could just grow up a vat of bone marrow or something
21:47 < kanzure_> EricWheelman_: The hum of the machine isn't the issue at this point,
21:47 < kanzure_> but instead that people kill the children before they reach term.
21:47 < kanzure_> They cite "humanitarian reasons".
21:47 < kanzure_> *cough*
21:47 < fenn> kanzure_: what? i thought they only did goats
21:47 < kanzure_> Also the whole horrible, horrible misfiguration issue.
21:47 < kanzure_> No, not just goats. There's been studies with mice and even human embryos for 4 to 8 weeks or something.
21:48 < fenn> wow
21:48 < EricWheelman_> It is true we don't know if these children are psychologically traumatized by it.
21:48 < fenn> what is the probability of "horrible horrible misfiguration"?
21:48 < kanzure_> 100%?
21:48 < kanzure_> I don't know.
21:48 < fenn> EricWheelman_: children are psychologically traumatized all the time and nobody is doing anything about it
21:48 < kanzure_> One of the adjectives describing the disfiguration rate was like "startling".
21:49  * fenn hates precautionary principle
21:49 < kanzure_> Yay Max More for doing something right
21:49 < xp_prg> why are they disfigurated?
21:49 < kanzure_> Nutrition, supposedly.
21:50 < kanzure_> Balance, maybe. It's been a few years since I've gone over this. Let me pull up the docs.
21:50 < EricWheelman_> fenn: I know : ( If it was my call, I would make childbearing possible only for the psychologically healthy. Those would be determined by people with the best brains, determined by brain imaging, fMRI etc.
21:50 < kanzure_> Actually I recall that the papers were so old that they weren't digitized.
21:50 < kanzure_> So I should go over to the libraries and get them.
21:50 < fenn> EricWheelman_: i hope to never live under your dictatorship
21:50 < kanzure_> What the fuck is a best brain?
21:51 < kanzure_> Is this something that you get at Best Buy?
21:51 < fenn> kanzure_: it's "determined by brain imaging" of course!
21:51 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: if you start to explore bavarians, you'll find plenty of pointers
21:51 < kanzure_> Silly me.
21:51 < kanzure_> Hah.
21:51 < kanzure_> "I am not interested in things getting better."
21:51 < fenn> is that some kind of nazi/eugenics reference?
21:51 < kanzure_-> I am not interested in things getting better; what I want is more: more human beings, more dreams, more history, more consciousness, more suffering, more joy, more disease, more agony, more rapture, more evolution, more life. 
21:52 < kanzure_-> from the meditations of Jin Zenimura
21:52 < kanzure_> Shit, how obvious can you get.
21:52 < kanzure_> "Jin Zenimura"
21:52 < kanzure_> "Jin Not-anything-to-do-with-zen"
21:52 < fenn> should call him zenimuda :P
21:53 < kanzure_> Zeni, the DBZ currency?
21:53 < EricWheelman_> fenn: bavarians? he no. ramonsky.com 'I've changed my mind'
21:53 < kanzure_> ..
21:53 < EricWheelman_> And a yahoo group
21:53 < fenn> kanzure_: Muda (??) [1] is traditional general Japanese term for activity that is wasteful and doesn't add value or is unproductive,
21:53 < kanzure_> fenn: The absence of activity, for some, can be useful.
21:53 < kanzure_> It'd be nice if some people would just stop trying. It hurts.
21:55 < kanzure_> ping?
21:56 < fenn> omg they're bombing stonehenge: http://home.ramonsky.com/henge.jpg
21:56 < fenn> ok so ramonsky.com keeps getting mentioned but i dont see wtf it has to do with anything
21:58 < EricWheelman_> I'm trying to think of something short and sweet
21:59 < fenn> ok eventually i found this link http://home.ramonsky.com/stuff/icmm/
21:59 < EricWheelman_> but it's a big book
22:00 < kanzure_> "Triggering a phase change in wealth distribution" got on arXiv? Really? I might as well write up a short article about the distribution of resources or something and throw in fancy "open" terms. Bah.
22:00 < EricWheelman_> Ok. Alex talks about 'intelligence augmentation' but what he means is not IQ increase. But improvement of all of the functions of the brain. Life augmentation.
22:00 < kanzure_> Is getting published this easy?
22:01 < kanzure_> EricWheelman_: What's your measurement of improvement?
22:01 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: I already told you some examples. Should I find you others?
22:01 < kanzure_> And does Ramonsky have a mapping of genotype->phenotype changes when it comes to the brain? By genotype I do not mean just DNA, but rather the set of operations for making modifications.
22:01 < kanzure_> I don't want examples, I want the evaluation function that he's obviously claiming to exist.
22:02 < kanzure_> *claiming to exist (and have).
22:02 < EricWheelman_> http://home.ramonsky.com/stuff/icmm/ch2.html
22:02 < fenn> kanzure_: isnt arxiv "anything goes"?
22:03 < kanzure_> Ok, so in that page he's just claiming that "growth" is the addition of feedback paths.
22:03 < kanzure_> That's basically what I say on http://heybryan.org/recursion.html but it does not answer my question.
22:04 < EricWheelman_> yes but i thought it was important
22:04 < EricWheelman_> one moment please
22:04  * fenn reads.. slowly
22:05 < kanzure_> fenn: Third to last paragraph.
22:05 < EricWheelman_> http://home.ramonsky.com/stuff/icmm/ch5.html
22:06 < EricWheelman_> a good brain is where all networks function at 100%
22:06 < EricWheelman_> I mean of course a perfect brain
22:06 < EricWheelman_> 'Matrix' is used in this book in place of networks
22:07 < fenn> blackmore says it more concisely with "information replicator"
22:07 < kanzure_> That does not answer my question.
22:07 < fenn> or maybe it should be "program replicator"
22:08  * fenn settles on the One True Theroy
22:08 < fenn> will the real Roy please stand up?
22:08 < kanzure_> Look, there's a set of actions that you can take (supposedly). This set includes genetic augmentations, different things to study and learn; each one has some distance from an actual rewriting or modification of the brain; each modification contributes some change. The mapping of the operations for changing to the phenotype of the changes is either (1) nonexistent or (2) what you claim Ramonsky claims to have. I don't think he has it.
22:08 < kanzure_> I say supposedly because of the analogy worth exploring on inertia.html
22:09 < fenn> where does he claim to have some magic formula?
22:09 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: do you mean epigenetics?
22:09 < kanzure_> "Ok. Alex talks about .. but what he means is .. improvement of .. the brain."
22:10 < kanzure_> Not really. Epigenetics is one factor, that's true.
22:10 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: are you saying that no improvement of the brain happens? no, well, what? dumb it down.
22:10 < kanzure_> This is the classic "recursive self-improvement" problem that the SL4ists love to talk about.
22:10 < kanzure_> http://sl4.org/
22:10  * fenn yawns
22:10 < kanzure_> They are still struggling to come up with a model of improvement.
22:11 < kanzure_> fenn: but it's true..
22:11 < fenn> it should be obvious by now that one can't perform self-selection
22:11 < kanzure_> this is the same damn thing
22:11 < EricWheelman_> self-selection? genetic?
22:11 < fenn> program replicators induce mutations in the program which are then selected by external forces
22:11 < kanzure_> EricWheelman_: No, not just genetic.]
22:11 < fenn> i'm mostly talking about mimetics
22:12 < fenn> er, memetics
22:12 < EricWheelman_> you're all over the map
22:12 < kanzure_> Synaptic, genetic, morphological, memetics, 
22:12 < EricWheelman_> and out of my head
22:12 < kanzure_> There's more to the brain than genes..
22:12 < kanzure_> Like the currently operating infrastructure/architecture.
22:12 < EricWheelman_> which is?
22:12 < fenn> EricWheelman_: there's a theory that "intelligence" is just natural selection (for lack of a better word) of programs that are replicated at a rate faster than the lifespan of the organism
22:13 < kanzure_> EricWheelman_: Uh, like the neurons.
22:13 < EricWheelman_> your words are interspersed (sp) in a way that I can't make out what you're arguing for anymore
22:13 < fenn> these programs take the form of scientific theories, sayings, songs, language, fashion
22:14 < kanzure_> Anyway, since I haven't solved the RSI problem, or as fenn suggests that perhaps there's no solution at all that allows for self-selection, that's why I've been touting "closure engineering" and artificial wombs + genetic engineering + cloning + other stuff.
22:14 < kanzure_> What I'm arguing is that Ramonsky is wrong .. he does not have a model of RSI.
22:14 < fenn> kanzure_: i dont think it matters so much whether we can select ourselves, if people actually DO stuff that makes them different
22:15 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: but i thought self was just part of the intelligence.
22:15 < kanzure_> Are you going to poke them with a hot stick?
22:15 < kanzure_> EricWheelman_: Can you rephrase, and what are you responding to?
22:15 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: 'he does not have model of RSI'
22:16 < fenn> self is whatever you define it to be
22:16 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: I think Ramonsky arguing for ways that increase survival and thriving.
22:17 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: a better brain for those things. that may not be self-directed in the absolute sense.
22:17 < kanzure_> So he's promoting the goal of replication?
22:17 < kanzure_> Don't need a brain for that really.
22:18 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: i think he's just playing with whatever's available right now
22:18 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: not exactly.
22:18 < kanzure_> I think he's lying when he says 'intelligence augmentation' if it's just for increasing the number of times you fuck.
22:18 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: because you can't thrive by being stupid
22:18 < kanzure_> Bacteria.
22:18 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: as a human
22:19 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: i don't know, what's wrong with fucking?
22:20 < kanzure_> Nothing's wrong with fucking, but you don't need to be smart to be human.
22:20  * fenn notes that most people dont define offspring as 'self'
22:20 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: yes, but filling the optimal potential of human is not the same thing.
22:20 < kanzure_> The optimal potential might be transhuman for all you know!
22:20 < UtopiahGHML> "the optimal potential of human"=?
22:21 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: ?
22:21 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: so?
22:22 < kanzure_> EricWheelman_: You're not going to get "intelligence augmentation"=>transhuman just by optimizing replication. That's like praying to the Evolution Godess.
22:22 < fenn> UtopiahGHML: me, of course :)
22:22 < EricWheelman_> kanzure_: what is transhuman to you?
22:22 < UtopiahGHML> EricWheelman_: have you watched the (not so) recent movie Idiocracy and of course read the very classical Wells, H.G. War of the Worlds? 
22:22 < EricWheelman_> neither
22:24 < UtopiahGHML> basically being humanocentric can be a dangerous bias, stating that intelligence is the ultime competitive advantage (often without even being able to define intelligence) could also be a risky bias.
22:24 < EricWheelman_> dangerous as in how?
22:24 < kanzure_> As transgenderism is to the genders, transhuman is to human and a variety of currently unexplored (un)stable architectures.
22:25 < UtopiahGHML> intelligence and complexity growth is an evolutionary "bet" (like any other) but you can see that simple organisms have survived way longer than use and exist in massive numbers too.
22:25 < kanzure_> s/use/us/ ?
22:25 < UtopiahGHML> yep
22:28 < kanzure_> fenn: So because we don't have that map of genotype/operational changes => phenotype changes, resultant brains and what those experiences might be like (or whatever), that's why I loosen the definition of self and slightly allow for offspring (esp. clones) to some extent. Especially augmented clones that have a propensity to augmenting their own clones.
22:34 < fenn> i've never met any clones so i dont know how i'd think of them
22:35 < kanzure_> It's a crude approximation of leaving some traces and maybe annotations
22:37 -!- EricWheelman___ is now known as EricWheelman
22:37 < kanzure_> God it sucks playing a game without savegame files.
22:37 < kanzure_> Have to jack up on lives by flaming chickens. Eh.
22:38 < EricWheelman> am i right: is your goal a kind of super-human entity whose thought we cannot fathom?
22:39 < kanzure_> That would be cool. But no.
22:40 < EricWheelman> Is your aim theoretical rather than practical?
22:40 < kanzure_> No.
22:40 < EricWheelman> kanzure_: then I have no idea what you're talking about.
22:40 < EricWheelman> kanzure_: but i guess reading about rsi might give me some idea
22:41 < kanzure_> RSI is what "intelligence augmentation" is most often talking about.
22:42 < EricWheelman> most of the time 'intelligence' has referred to iq, that i've seen.
22:42 < EricWheelman> iq and logic
22:42 < kanzure_> I don't know what intelligence is. (Thats' another show stopper.)
22:42 < kanzure_> *That's
22:43 < fenn> EricWheelman: kanzure has no goal, in fact i believe he is searching for a goal
22:44 < kanzure_> Really?
22:45 < fenn> kanzure_: you didnt know?
22:45 < EricWheelman> fenn: you mentioned something about self... maybe some day i'll be enlightened and dualisms will dissolve and I will ... just... do stuff
22:46  * kanzure_ smiles
22:46 < EricWheelman> yeah
22:47 < fenn> as long as it's at least slightly different from what everyone else is doing
22:47 < EricWheelman> point being?
22:47 < fenn> um, i dunno, buy Apple computers?
22:48 < fenn> "think different"
22:48 < EricWheelman> i'll keep that in mind
22:48 < fenn> it should be obvious if you understood what i was saying about memetics, selection, and intelligence
22:49 < kanzure_> local ruts?
22:49 < EricWheelman> I didn't.
22:49 < fenn> sigh
22:49 < EricWheelman> You didn't notice when I asked kanzure to dumb down
22:49 < fenn> nobody knows what's "more intelligent" until it's been proven by the context
22:50 < fenn> therefore, all we can do is do different things, and let it all get sorted out
22:50 < EricWheelman> i might follow
22:50 < wrldpc> http://feeds.feedburner.com/%7Er/wiredbeyond/%7E3/449449000/futurist-centen.html
22:51  * fenn hates RSS
22:51 < kanzure_> because of the clients?
22:51 < fenn> because of the endless press releases polluting real news
22:51 < EricWheelman> are you arguing for example, that because of that, one possibility for intelligence augmentation could be for us all to kill ourselves
22:51 < EricWheelman> emphasis on could
22:51 < EricWheelman> because we don't know
22:52 < kanzure_> ..
22:52 < fenn> that sentence doesnt make sense in my paradigm
22:52 < fenn> uh, "intelligence augmentation" doesnt make sense in my paradigm
22:52 < fenn> its like saying "ordered chaos"
22:53 < fenn> because what you really mean is predicting actions that will cause you to make better predictions
22:53 < fenn> or something like that
22:53 < kanzure_> (Right)
22:54 < EricWheelman> fenn: yes. so scratch the name.
22:54 < fenn> so, could you please reformulate your question?
22:55 < EricWheelman> but things don't ever get sorted out, or do they?
22:55 < fenn> well, often we get stuck in local ruts because the system is so stable
22:55 < EricWheelman> example
22:56 < fenn> people are still driving piston combustion engine carriages, in 2008!
22:56 < fenn> that's 100 years of unbroken local-rut stability
22:56 < fenn> er, 200
22:56 < EricWheelman> you're arguing that is the stability of the system causes that?
22:57 < EricWheelman> what about venus project?
22:57 < kanzure_> Heh.
22:57 < EricWheelman> just the idea
22:57 < fenn> what about it? futurism design masturbation, i say
22:57 < kanzure_> We were just talking about the other day. It looks like he doesn't actually have schematics or anything.
22:57 < fenn> great illustrations for scifi book covers
22:57 < kanzure_> Not really :(
22:57  * kanzure_ has seen some great scifi art
22:57 < EricWheelman> alex says stupidity slows down technological progress
22:57 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/images/art/ or something
22:57 < fenn> well, have you looked at scifi book covers? hmm
22:57 < kanzure_> yeah
22:57 < kanzure_> hold on ..
22:58  * fenn has seen some terrible scifi book covers
22:59 < kanzure_> aha
22:59 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/art/
23:00 < kanzure_> See the starwars subdir too.
23:00 < EricWheelman> It seems to me that if people could see reality, we would live in a different world. Think of the way theists oppose transhumanism (most)
23:00 < fenn> some of the orions arm art is pretty bad too (but some of it is just awesome)
23:01 < kanzure_> Mormon Transhumanist Association.
23:02 < fenn> apparently mormons are very pro- engineering ?
23:02 < kanzure_> Anyway, the term 'transhumanism' has been hijacked by WTA and I talk about 'transhumans' instead.
23:02 < fenn> what was that site you found?
23:02 < kanzure_> fenn: what does that even mean?
23:02 < kanzure_> eh?
23:02 < fenn> mormon engineers or something
23:02 < kanzure_> Cosmic Engineers?
23:02 < kanzure_> was started by a mormon if that counts
23:02 < kanzure_> wait, no
23:02 < kanzure_> Sorry. Bad. BAD. No.
23:02 < kanzure_> Canonizer was started by an MTA member.
23:02 < fenn> MTA?
23:03 < kanzure_> Mormon Tra..
23:03 < fenn> dont tell me that's for real
23:03 < kanzure_> :(
23:03  * fenn gawks
23:04 < fenn> sweet, well, i hope they put their money where their mouth is
23:04 < kanzure_> but that's just the thing ..
23:04 < kanzure_> the money is like trying to put it where the improvement is
23:04 < kanzure_> oops?
23:04 < fenn> not necessarily
23:04 < fenn> a lot of basic research is about trial and error
23:05 < fenn> s/basic//
23:05 < fenn> and each trial takes a non-zero amount of effort
23:05 < fenn> == money, sort of
23:09 < EricWheelman> Abolitionist advocated a lesser form of eugenics than me. He thought that people could mate and then if the baby's genes passed a certain level, then that baby was given permission to born. That way it seems many diseases could be reduced in the population quite quickly.
23:09 < UtopiahGHML> (btw if some of you are using Bloglines, they are unofficially "end-lifing it" so Id recommend using something like TinyTinyRSS ( tt-rss.org ) after exporting your OPML file
23:10 < fenn> EricWheelman: that's a "lesser form" compared to what?
23:10 < EricWheelman> lesser form compared to mine.
23:10 < fenn> what is yours... *grumble*
23:11 < EricWheelman> parents shouldn't have the right to decide if a person should live a life with a considerable risk for disease.
23:11  * fenn glances at the twenty or so >10k mailing list posts waiting to be read
23:11 < EricWheelman> until they are adults.
23:11 < kanzure_> "right" ?
23:11 < kanzure_> What the hell?
23:11 < kanzure_> What's a "right"?
23:11 < fenn> until who are adults?
23:11 < EricWheelman> the children.
23:11 < fenn> i'm not understanding
23:12 < UtopiahGHML> =]
23:12 < fenn> this doesn't involve time machines does it?
23:12 < EricWheelman> Then, if they so chose, they could had gene medicine that would give what ever diseases they wanted.
23:12 < EricWheelman> *have gene medicine
23:12 < UtopiahGHML> maybe fratcal time machines...
23:12 < UtopiahGHML> distributed over different //dimensions
23:12 < fenn> EricWheelman: do you even understand the technical arguments against eugenics?
23:13 < fenn> the point is we cant predict what is a "good" genome and what is "bad"
23:13 < EricWheelman> Never?
23:13 < fenn> sickle cell anemia: good if you live in a malaria-ridden environment
23:13 < fenn> i'm sure there are billions of other similar situations
23:13 < EricWheelman> Malaria will probably be a thing of the past when this starts to happen
23:14 < fenn> and of course it will never return, for all infinity of time
23:14 < EricWheelman> but will anemia work for all eternity?
23:14 < fenn> upgrade today to Human XP!
23:15 < fenn> er Vista, blah
23:15 < EricWheelman> Maybe a lot of probability calculation and risk analysis should be performed.
23:15 < EricWheelman> Fool proof, no, but what is
23:15 < fenn> homogenous populations are very vulnerable to parasites and ecological collapse
23:16 < EricWheelman> Define homogenous?
23:16 < fenn> lack of diversity
23:16 < EricWheelman> Define that
23:16 < EricWheelman> what scale
23:16 < fenn> fuck do you want a statistics lesson?
23:16 < EricWheelman> what detail
23:16 < EricWheelman> Not really ; )
23:16 < UtopiahGHML> Homo Sapiens Sapiens = alpha release
23:16 < fenn> systemic policies tend to drive said system to one extreme or the other
23:17 < EricWheelman> Must depend on how many genes are changed.
23:17 < EricWheelman> fenn: yes in the current world
23:17 < fenn> but in your miracle future world things will be different.. because.
23:17 < EricWheelman> with stupid leaders
23:18 < kanzure_> But now you've just redistributed the RSI problem to political voting .. ugh. You can't escape it.
23:18 < EricWheelman> fenn: I'm not saying it will happen. Just that I see it might be a good thing
23:18 < fenn> i suppose you think obedience/following is a "bad" thing
23:18 < EricWheelman> fenn: herd instict is bad?
23:19 < fenn> well?
23:19 < EricWheelman> fenn: yes, because you don't know if they jump off a cliff
23:19 < UtopiahGHML> lemmings
23:19  * fenn tries to come up with a counterexample, but they all went extinct millennia ago
23:19 < EricWheelman> fenn: or if they decide to attack another group
23:20 < kanzure_> Banjo Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts is coming out. :)
23:21 < fenn> EricWheelman: did you know even cats travel in "herds"?
23:22 < fenn> so, please give an example of an independent vertebrate
23:22 < EricWheelman> no, but i can see no discernible population wide emotional handicaps in cats
23:22 < EricWheelman> can't
23:22 < EricWheelman> where as in humans : (
23:23 < kanzure_> Go look at the Wikiepdia article for BK: N&B. "Players can build vehicles from over 1600 components."
23:25 < kanzure_> Hah! Rareware acknowledged Rare Witch Project.
23:25 < EricWheelman> pretty cool idea
23:25 < fenn> is this like "spore" for cars?
23:25  * kanzure_ used to be a contributor to Rare Witch Project.
23:26 < kanzure_> EricWheelman: Our idea is better. ;-) http://oscomak.net/
23:28  * fenn scoffs at BK
23:29 < fenn> it's Dungeons and Dragons "point" mentality
23:29 < kanzure_> but Black Eye had 7 letters which was the number of eyes that Gruntilda and her sisters had!
23:29 < kanzure_> oh, 8, woops
23:29 < kanzure_> um, something like that
23:29 < kanzure_> uh ..
23:29 < fenn> eh?
23:29 < kanzure_> I spent a few months like that.
23:29 < kanzure_> back in 2002.
23:30 < fenn> i mean the airplane flies because you attach wings to it, not because the shape creates a certain airflow whose reaction is greater than the mass
23:30 < kanzure_> I was milking the game for secrets and going over every inch of address space in the RAM.
23:30 < kanzure_> yeah, it's not anything usable
23:30 < fenn> wheels execute a move() function or some crap
23:32 < fenn> there seem to be a lot of basket shaped vehicles, i wonder what they're for
23:33 < EricWheelman> time for bed after a long day of intense thinking *rolling eyes*
23:33 < fenn> don't sleep too hard
23:33 < EricWheelman> hah
23:34 < EricWheelman> i take even my sleep seriously
23:38 < EricWheelman> one more thing. am I wrong in that both of you with RSI concentrate on theoretical/analytical aspect of the game. Where as neurohacking has more to do with the experiential. bye
23:41  * fenn looks around for some Kool-Aid
23:43 < fenn> wow "Blood transfusion is the second largest source of new HIV infections in Nigeria"
23:53 < kanzure_> Yes, Eric, you are wrong.
23:56 < kanzure_> fenn: Are you sure I'm so goal-less? Haven't I convinced you of the opposite by now?
23:57 < kanzure_> I suppose from my POV, the rejection of goals will then be the rejection of anything looking like a goal, but surely I look like some sort of selection.
23:58  * fenn shrugs
23:58 < fenn> it was from all the talk about possibility space