--- Day changed Sun Nov 16 2008
00:17 < fenn> wonder why he asked if i own a motorcycle
00:17 < kanzure_>  maybe he will tell the police that you don't own a helmet. 
00:17 < fenn> but i have two, and they're full of mouse poop
00:19 < kanzure_>  uhm.
00:19 < kanzure_> Why?
00:20 < fenn> because the mice pooped in them
00:20 < fenn> algae-bot looks pretty good to me
00:20 < kanzure_> I didn't click
00:20 < kanzure_> but I remember seeing something once that was this water-surface-thingy
00:21 < kanzure_> that harvested algae.
00:21 < kanzure_> is this it?
00:21 < fenn> looks sorta like a crab
00:21 < kanzure_> hm. I remember a typical boat with a giant roller-thingy.
00:21 < fenn> it has a roller thingy
00:21 < fenn> more like a crab robot though
00:21 < kanzure_> yay memory
01:04 < kanzure_> I got a stupid email today about some synthetic biology paper that said "RAWR WE NEED CATEGORIES" and so some kids got their names on a paper for saying it.
01:05 < kanzure_> Why didn't I write that?
01:05 < kanzure_> weren't we ranting about this months ago?
01:05 < fenn> uh huh
01:05 < kanzure_> weren't we??
01:05 < fenn> yep
01:05 < kanzure_> I think I should rant in PDF form from now on.
01:06 < fenn> linkdumps are encouraged in pdf form
01:07 < kanzure_> For some reason I don't tend to bookmark papers that I read.
01:07 < fenn> lazyweb me wants a url->bibtex translator
01:07 < kanzure_> Mostly because it's too much overhead. Download PDF, rename, move to the right location; tab over to the actual PDF display; 
01:07 < kanzure_> luckily some of the paper websites list the bibtex or some other weird citation format
01:07 < UtopiahGHML> Zotero
01:07 < kanzure_> sciencedirect, for instance, does it in plain html
01:07 < kanzure_> UtopiahGHML: Firefox extensions don't count.
01:11 < kanzure_> The publishers don't actually take pdf submissions, of course ..
01:11 < kanzure_> they have their various latex template files I'm sure.
01:31 < kanzure_> fenn:  Who was it that did that Regli virtual manufacturing research with NSF originally?
01:31 < kanzure_> NIST, woops.
01:32 < kanzure_> It wasn't Regli, I just remember that nam.
01:35 < kanzure_> luf-team email about Vermont virtual companies. Apparently they are implementing some CGI(?) gateways to allow you to register companies automatically. 
01:36 < kanzure_> this is a russian botnet's owner wetdream ..
01:36 < kanzure_> go install some stuff on Amazon W3 services, deploy a few fake email addresses (dodgeit.com?), ..
01:37 < kanzure_> get a few pre-paid credit cards ..
01:37 < kanzure_> I wonder if a virtual company will be subject to zoning laws. haha.
01:38 < kanzure_> (not IP zoning.)
01:48 < kanzure_> fenn: I ask about the NIST virtual manufacturing stuff  because that would be very good context-establishing information for the email. which you haven't sent me.
02:31 < fenn> this? http://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/vm2/
02:31 < kanzure_> Ah, Nau. yeah.
02:32 < fenn> re: cgi corporation, reminds me of 'lobsters' by stross
02:32 < fenn> he had a flock of corporations whose bylaws were written in python
02:33 < fenn> used them for lawsuit barrage DOS attack
02:33 < kanzure_> bylaws written in python? Business operations in python, sure. Bylaws, I'm not so sure.
02:33 < kanzure_> "There will be one meeting every month!" is a bylaw
02:33 < fenn> well, something like that
02:33 < kanzure_> "There's a meeting this month" would be a check.
02:33 < kanzure_> okay
02:34 < kanzure_> I don't remember that section either.
02:34 < fenn> 'corporation will follow its prescribed business operations' check
02:34 < fenn> 'corporation will do what it wants'
02:35 < kanzure_>  I want to see if they have fees for setting up companies. If so, we get to argue "land of opportunity" and "unreasonable fees."
02:35 < kanzure_> "Sorry, that's how much they have to charge in order to pay off the consultants."
02:36 < kanzure_> "I'll do it for free."
02:36 < kanzure_> "Sorry, we still have to fuck you."
02:36 < fenn> interesting that it's vermont
02:40 < kanzure_> Is Wikipedia giving some weird unicode output for you?
02:41 < fenn> example link?
02:41 < fenn> the list of languages are unicode of course
02:41 < kanzure_> there it goes.
02:42 < kanzure_> Anyway, I was trying to remember the population of Vermont. 
02:42 < kanzure_> 600,000
02:42 < kanzure_> significant in the sense that it's not.
02:43 < fenn> i'm amazed at how well konqueror/kwrite handles the mixed unicode text
02:43 < kanzure_> It was this bad output for the entire page, I suspect it was on my end. 
02:44 < fenn> it only screws up when selecting persian (which seems to have a lot of ligatures)
02:45 < kanzure_> Not what I mean.
02:45 < kanzure_> I should have saved the page.
03:39 < fenn> http://media.armadilloaerospace.com/2008_10_24/LLC_Level_1_flight_2.mpg
03:40 < fenn> reminds me of a certain video game
03:48 < gene> well you know  the company is headed up by john carmack
03:50 < bkero> Holy shit
03:50 < bkero> That's less people than Montana
03:50 < bkero> I thought only Wyoming had less people
04:03 < fenn> now this is what i call a dot matrix printer: http://www.dapramarking.com/video/wmv/DMS-HandHeldMarking.wmv
04:04 < gene> http://fab.cba.mit.edu/classes/MIT/961.04/people/manu/projects.html
04:04 < gene> check it out
04:04 < gene> a pocket mill
04:04 < fenn> sweet
04:05 < gene> now if we could only build one
04:05 < fenn> i have no idea what i'm looking at
04:05 < gene> it's a milling machine
04:05 < gene> that could fit in your pocket
04:05 < gene> ie 
04:05 < gene> it cuts a way stuff to make things
04:06 < fenn> the "maze" kinda reminds me of physik instrumente's 6-axis piezo stages
04:07 < gene> it is a piezo stage basically
04:07 < fenn> but there arent enough actuators
04:08 < gene> it appears to be six axis
04:08 < gene> do you have access to piezo stages?
04:08 < fenn> there's only two piezo actuators (the oval thingies
04:09 < fenn> no i dont have access to anything
04:09 < gene> the paper says there's like 6 axises
04:10 < fenn> the paper by Shorya Awtar?
04:10 < gene> that marking gun would be great to have
04:10 < gene> Apply to surface
04:10 < gene> and bam graffitti
04:10 < fenn> inkjet cartridge + mouse sensor would be neat too
04:12 < fenn> "technology disclosures - filing underway" wtf does that mean
04:13 < gene> sigh
04:13 < gene> if only we could figure out how inkjet cartridges are controlled
04:14 < gene> we could do amazing things
04:14 < fenn> "if only"?
04:15 < gene> much of the cost(for Z-corp) of a Z-corp 3d printer is making a special driver to control the inkjet cartridge(same as the ones 2d printers use)
04:16 < fenn> one would think that i would have saved the inkjet graffiti device as a bookmark...
04:16 < gene> the only reason why 3d printers cost a lot, is that people who buy them are willing to pay a lot
04:17 < gene> was it an epson inkjet?
04:17 < gene> epson inkjets are the best to use for 3d printing
04:19 < fenn> can't find it again. whoever wrote the article reverse engineered the inkjet pinout in an afternoon
04:20 < fenn> do you have a real source for "much of the cost is in inkjet drivers" or are you bullshitting me?
04:22 < gene> it's true
04:23 < gene> and that probably doesn't cost much
04:23 < fenn> "it's true" means what
04:23 < gene> hold on let me find the sauce
04:24 < fenn> i know it's just a glorified xyz stage with a squeegee and an inkjet cartridge
04:24 < fenn> but i bet the software development is a miniscule part of the actual costs
04:25 < fenn> tech support is probably greatest
04:25 < fenn> followed closely by legal fees :)
04:26 < gene> http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2005/0225007.html
04:26 < gene> it's more than just a squeegee
04:26 < gene> it's a roller
04:27 < gene> and a powder dispenser
04:27 < fenn> oh right, i've seen that
04:27 < gene> there is also a special heater
04:28 < gene> and a binder reservoir the size of a small gas tank
04:28 < gene> the binder is just water with some stuff added to it
04:29 < gene> Z-corp is making quite a profit
04:30 < gene> and guess what Z-corp uses to add color to their prints
04:30 < gene> ?
04:30 < gene> Guess
04:30 < gene> Food Dye
04:30 < gene> http://www.mae.carleton.ca/MSDS/ZB%207%20Binder.pdf
04:33 < fenn> ooo
04:33 < fenn> i bet they are
04:33 < gene> yeah
04:33 < fenn> why havent we seen "hack your inkjet into a 3d printer" instructable yet
04:34 < fenn> what's the powder, baking soda?
04:34 < fenn> i hear powdered sugar should work too
04:34 < gene> someone made one though
04:34 < gene> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4Y8WnSKvC8
04:34 < gene> http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?70,11563,page=1
04:35 < gene> powder is maltodextrin
04:35 < gene> or something like that
04:35 < gene> or plaster
04:36 < fenn> hmm plaster would be good
04:37 < gene> you strengthen the print out by dripping super glue on it
04:38 < fenn> what do you think about leaving some capillary channels through the part to soak up a stronger resin, like epoxy
04:38 < gene> Z-corp sells special additives for strengthening parts like that
04:38 < fenn> "sulfate salt" is probably an anti-caking agent
04:39 < gene> there's this one video of a z-corp part treated with their special super secret additive
04:39 < gene> and the par being used as a hammer
04:41 < kanzure_> John Carmack has emailed me before.
04:41 < fenn> didnt he say something like 'you need to do your homework'? :)
04:41 < kanzure_> fenn, can you link me to the pocket mill paper that you can't access?
04:42 < fenn> no
04:42 < fenn> i dont know what paper gene was talking about
04:42 < gene> paper?
04:42 < gene> Damn Kanzure you know Carmack too?
04:44 < kanzure_> I'm a bit extreme.
04:44 < kanzure_> Um.
04:44 < gene> what did carmack email you about?
04:44 < kanzure_> fenn: I was assuming the link was from the .edu page.
04:44 < kanzure_> Some CFD stuff and telling me to stop trying with amateur rocketry.
04:44 < kanzure_> Totally destroyed my image of him.
04:45 < gene> you did amateur rocketry?
04:45 < kanzure_> I haven't stopped.
04:45 < fenn> O RLY
04:45 < kanzure_> Just haven't been building things of late ..
04:45 < gene> what was your propellant?
04:45 < kanzure_> You're assuming I had something working?
04:45 < gene> ha
04:45 < gene> yeah
04:45 < kanzure_> Bad assumption.
04:45 < fenn> geez not like it's hard to go buy an estes kit
04:45 < gene> so what did you intend your propellant to be?
04:46 < kanzure_> Candy.
04:46 < gene> oh
04:46 < gene> don't you mean oxidizer and candy?
04:47 < gene> what did you intend to use as an oxidizer?
04:47 < gene> perchlorate?
04:47 < gene> potassium nitrate
04:47 < gene> ?
04:47 < kanzure_> KNO3, yes.
04:47 < kanzure_> In particular I was following the sugar-candy rocket people, like Richard Nakka.
04:48 < gene> was this a serious rocket?
04:48 < kanzure_> Why are you assuming there was just one rocket ?
04:48 < kanzure_> this is weird
04:48 < kanzure_> Stop assuming shit.
04:49 < gene> did you intend to build big serious rockets?
04:49 < gene> or estes sized things
04:49 < kanzure_> Big stuff, but you don't start big.
04:50 < gene> how big?
04:50 < fenn> but you dont start at all sometimes
04:50 < gene> get to space big?
04:50 < kanzure_> That's altitude.
04:50 < kanzure_> Are you talking about physical size or distance?
04:50 < kanzure_> *or altitude?
04:51 < fenn> velocity
04:51 < gene> sometimes they are mutually exclusive
04:51 < kanzure_> Anyway, it's not like I had schematics or any metal laying around.
04:51 < fenn> if you can make a rocket go mach 30 i'll be impressed
04:51 < kanzure_> Go bark up another tree.
04:53 < gene> heh fenn
04:53 < gene> I don't think anything can go mach 30
04:53 < gene> in the atmosphere at least
04:53 < fenn> shirley you must be joking
04:53 < fenn> not in the atmosphere
04:54 < kanzure_> "frivolous ambivalence" heh'
04:55 < gene> were you intending to build a scramjet?
04:55 < kanzure_> What I was planning on doing was improving some models of engines and designs that I was pulling out of my copy of Sutton
04:56 < gene> Sutton?
04:56 < kanzure_> Carmack didn't think this was appropriate and basically gave me the finger.
04:56 < kanzure_> (but not much in terms of alternatives)
04:56 < kanzure_> (he isn't why I stopped, of course)
04:56 < gene> heh
04:56 < kanzure_> http://osaerospace.com/
04:57 < gene> were you telling him to go open source?
04:57 < kanzure_> No.
04:57 < kanzure_> I was not talking to him; he just replied to me.
04:57 < gene> man he must be quite a dick
04:58 < kanzure_> and so we started talking etc.
04:58 < kanzure_> I don't know about that.
04:58 < kanzure_> I think he just needed to rant.
04:58 < fenn> wowee 0 forum posts and no content, wtf is the point of osaerospace.com
04:58 < kanzure_> "You damned kids don't know how hard it is, rawr"
04:58 < kanzure_> fenn: Squatters.
04:59 < gene> well
04:59 < kanzure_> "Back in my day, we solved PDEs by throwing stones at the Chinese."
04:59 < gene> if you were trying to get into space, then he might have had the right to say that it was hard, if you were trying to build something estes sized then he didn't
04:59 < gene> heh
05:00 < gene> can you solve PDEs kanzure?
05:00  * fenn has maxima installed...
05:00  * kanzure_ has mathematica, maxima, matlab, labview, ocam, and a few others installed
05:00 < fenn> not like i know how to use it or anything though
05:00 < kanzure_> So yes.
05:00 < kanzure_> *maxima
05:00 < gene> I mean by hand
05:00 < kanzure_> Why the fuck would you do it by hand?
05:01 < kanzure_> Do you have any idea what you'd be getting into?
05:01 < fenn> it makes sense to know what's going on "under the hood"
05:01 < gene> because they don't allow us to use calculators on the test
05:01 < fenn> but how often does one use PDE's in real life?
05:01 < kanzure_> who's they?
05:01 < kanzure_> and what test ??
05:01 < gene> my math teacher
05:01 < gene> the one on monday
05:01 < kanzure_> fuck your math teacher
05:02 < gene> his background is error analysis
05:02 < gene> which means he really don't trust computers
05:02 < fenn> i have a book on that
05:03 < fenn> oh, wron kind of error analysis
05:03 < kanzure_> There are ways to prove programs for correctness.
05:03 < gene> I know
05:03 < gene> I hate doing PDEs too kanzure
05:03 < fenn> so, what's the big deal?
05:03 < kanzure_> If he has a list of arguments for why a certain PDE solution algorithm sucks, that's fine, but I don't see why his test has to get in the way of me doing modeling on a computer and Carmack yelling at us "damned youngers"
05:04 < gene> I know
05:04 < gene> is there anyway I could run that software on two sheets of paper like a slide rule?
05:05 < fenn> you could make some colored tiles and assemble/disassemble them until you get the solution :\
05:05 < kanzure_> But you might as well just know the algorithms at that point.
05:06 < gene> I am allowed only two sheets of paper on the test
05:06 < kanzure_> see, this is why selling yourself like a whore is a bad idea.
05:07 < fenn> thank you so much for saying that kanzure
05:07 < gene> now if I could implant a calculator in my hand...
05:07 < kanzure_>  ?
05:07 < gene> that's controlled by thinking
05:07 < kanzure_> gene: Have you seen the TI-83 hacks that replace the processor and so on?
05:07 < kanzure_> fenn: sarcasm?
05:07 < gene> yeah
05:07 < fenn> i'm sorta worried about slaving like a dog for campbell/<insert professor here> and then them getting all the credit/IP
05:07 < gene> I can't use a calculator
05:07 < kanzure_> fenn: so you're not worried about the general slaving part?
05:08 < fenn> if i'm doing something i believe in, it's not slaving
05:08 < fenn> doing lots of work for someone else's benefit for little pay is slaving
05:08 < gene> heh we might have to worry about that kanzure
05:08 < kanzure_> gene: What?
05:09 < kanzure_> fenn: So, what I do is I write the majority of the good code at home and publish it on the web before I show it in the lab
05:09 < kanzure_> well, or I write it on the job but not on a logged hour, that sort of thing
05:09 < kanzure_> but this is just cheap.
05:09 < fenn> uh, ok
05:09 < kanzure_> oh
05:09 < fenn> somehow i doubt that counts
05:09 < kanzure_> I talked with Campbell about the licensing stuffs
05:09 < kanzure_> (not the "co-author" stuff - he's eager to get me on a paper)
05:10 < kanzure_> and he's basically as clueless/apprehensive as I am about it
05:10 < gene> yeah I know
05:10 < kanzure_> "Well, I've had graphsynth online for 3 years, so it's out there. I'm just worried about what the university will say."
05:10 < gene> actually doesn't he want us to publish something over the break?
05:10 < kanzure_> gene: You don't work for Campbell.
05:11 < gene> Does fenn?
05:11 < fenn> well, i wont sign anything that says i have to fork copyright over to the uni. i'll cross it out
05:11 < gene> I am not familiar with campbell
05:11 < kanzure_> gene: Maybe.
05:11 < kanzure_> fenn: I haven't had to sign anything like that. 
05:11 < kanzure_> but it might be "implied". 
05:11 < kanzure_> dunno
05:11 < fenn> it might have been buried in fine print
05:12 < gene> that would be scary
05:12 < fenn> ho hum. so what's campbell doing in engineering anyway?
05:12 < fenn> i guess i should ask him that not you
05:12 < kanzure_> that's a good idea.
05:13 < kanzure_> did you send the email?>
05:13 < kanzure_> before I could ask him he answered it for me
05:13 < fenn> yes, last night
05:13 < kanzure_> but I don't remember the specifics.
05:13 < kanzure_> it was more like "I feel kind of bad being all in engineering and here I am publishing about graph theory"
05:13 < gene> who is campbell?
05:13 < kanzure_> Automated Design Lab professor.
05:13 < fenn> head(?) of the utexas automated design lab
05:14 < kanzure_> fenn: head.
05:14 < fenn> giant pulsating brain
05:14 < kanzure_> fenn: the hierarchy goes Manufacturing and Design Lab -> ADL
05:14 < kanzure_> uh, I guess <- ADL.
05:14 < fenn> say that again?
05:14 < kanzure_> how does one express subordination?
05:14 < fenn> a is a subset of b
05:14 < kanzure_> ADL is a subset of MAD lab
05:15 < kanzure_> but I was talking about the -> notation.
05:15 < fenn> i dont know any -> notation
05:15 < kanzure_> guess that's directionality
05:15 < gene> kanzure, if the computers ever start disobeying humans decommission them with a hammer
05:15 < fenn> that's perl's lame excuse for a method operator
05:16 < kanzure_> so campbell was complaining about how I work so ridiculously fast
05:16 < kanzure_> "I need a grad student"
05:16 < kanzure_> *boom*
05:16 < fenn> o rly
05:16 < fenn> when was this?
05:16 < kanzure_> huh? a few days ago.
05:16 < gene> damn Kanzure
05:16 < kanzure_> fenn: really he was saying full time 
05:16 < fenn> well, i am slow, so maybe it will balance out
05:16 < kanzure_> but that's why I told you
05:16 < kanzure_> huh?
05:17 < kanzure_> No, I mean you.
05:17  * fenn tries to untangle the conversation
05:17 < kanzure_> nevermind.
05:17 < kanzure_> No information was conveyed.
05:17 < fenn> "i am the bottleneck"
05:17 < kanzure_> no.
05:18 < kanzure_> I was just saying that he was talking about how fast I work, and he was also saying that I shouldn't be doing some of the work I do or whatever, that he needs a full timer
05:18 < fenn> "from my distorted and anxiety ridden perspective, it appears that my behavior takes on certain characteristics of a bottlneck in a flow system"
05:18 < kanzure_> so I was saying that as evidence of this quickness, he now has a resume sitting in his inbox
05:18  * fenn hates e-prime
05:18 < kanzure_> what are you saying now?
05:18  * kanzure_ goes away
05:19 < gene> any way
05:20 < gene> nevermind
05:20 < kanzure_> ?
05:20 < gene> I'm wondering if I could build a pocket mill
05:20 < gene> or other small mill
05:21 < gene> that could be kept in a dorm
05:21 < kanzure_> Did you see the papers on a 30x30x30 mm mill + lathe setup?
05:21 < gene> yeah
05:21 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/manufacturing/ <- somewhere in here
05:21 < gene> the microfactory right?
05:21 < kanzure_> yes
05:21 < gene> yeah
05:21 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/
05:21 < gene> too bad it ain't any where near automated
05:21 < kanzure_> What, you mean load/unload of materials?
05:21 < gene> yeah
05:22 < kanzure_> Even if it was, that would be hard to deploy in a dorm.
05:22 < kanzure_> You don't quite have enough space to stack an inventory preped for autoloading.
05:22 < gene> now how would we automate it?
05:22 < gene> well
05:22 < kanzure_> In a dorm? forget about it,
05:22 < kanzure_> but if you have lab space then you can start talking about some lifting mechanisms and positioners with guidetrains
05:22 < gene> I just want to build an electrochemical mill
05:22 < kanzure_> guidethingies
05:23 < kanzure_> um
05:23 < kanzure_> guideboxes?
05:23 < kanzure_> guiderails.
05:23 < gene> I've been contemplating designing a electrochemical machining head for reprap
05:24 < kanzure_> For electrochemistry?
05:24 < gene> for machining metal
05:24 < fenn> are you sure you mean ECM and not EDM?
05:25 < gene> yes
05:25 < gene> ECM is easier to do
05:25 < fenn> well, good luck with that
05:25 < kanzure_> Quick summary of ECM? 
05:25 < fenn> massive computational prediction of electrode shape to remove the desired form from cathode
05:25 < fenn> s/electrode/anode/
05:26 < kanzure_> huh? So you make this anode?
05:26 < fenn> yes
05:26 < kanzure_> and then you do anode-cathode contact and do what, where's the chemistry?
05:26 < fenn> they're separated by electrolyte solution
05:26 < kanzure_> and this causes some induction of heat or something.
05:26 < kanzure_> Alright.
05:26 < fenn> it dissolves into solution and then plates onto the anode
05:26 < gene> you scan a syringe coated with insulator except for the very tip charged up some odd distance from surface spraying electrolyte(salt water ok, sodium nitrate great)
05:27 < gene> it goes into solute
05:27 < gene> it goes into solution I mean
05:27 < gene> how do you make electrode
05:27 < kanzure_> Heh, I cacn link you to how to make electrodes for brain stimulation. Not the same thing.
05:27 < gene> you buy a blunt tipped dispensing tip
05:28 < gene> you could make electrodes for brain stimulation
05:28 < gene> with ECM
05:28 < kanzure_> This method just involved wrapping wires carefully.
05:28 < gene> gold wires right?
05:28 < kanzure_> (and very large)
05:28 < gene> btw got an idea for brain stimulation
05:28 < kanzure_> Maybe. http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/neuro/ has a file on it. (one of the PDFs)
05:28 < gene> that might work
05:29 < gene> and would do minimal damage to tissue(hopefully)
05:30 < gene> I'll explain it later
05:30 < kanzure_> Why not now?
05:30 < kanzure_> You just started to say, but now you're starting?
05:30 < kanzure_> *you're stopping?
05:30 < gene> ok
05:31 < gene> basic idea is that you have a nonconductive fiber coated with 
05:32 < gene> metal and insulator such that you have a bunch of electrode pads on it 
05:32 < gene> push these fibers into nerve fibers 
05:32 < gene> such that they form something of a matrix
05:33 < kanzure_> Like an MEA?
05:33 < kanzure_> Microelectrode array
05:33 < gene> yeah
05:33 < gene> but you apply electricity  at x and y fibers 
05:33 < kanzure_> How is that not like an MEA?
05:34 < gene> to stimulate xy neurons
05:34 < fenn> you cant multiplex an electrode, sorry
05:34 < fenn> think about it
05:34 < gene> because it goes into the nerve fiber
05:34 < kanzure_> An MEA supposedly has specific control of each electrode tip.
05:34 < gene> I know
05:34 < kanzure_> but you can make crappy versions of course
05:34 < fenn> there has to be some kind of and gate at each junction
05:35 < gene> but neurons can't go through the electrode array
05:35 < kanzure_> fenn: What is multiplexing again?
05:35 < fenn> the x/y multiply number of i/o scheme
05:35 < fenn> using x anodes and y cathodes
05:35 < kanzure_> multiply?
05:35 < fenn> er, multiplexing is more general than that actually
05:36 < gene> it's hard to install a flat plate electrode array and connecting up the neurons on the other time
05:36 < kanzure_> time?
05:36 < gene> other side
05:36 < gene> lol dyslexia
05:36 < kanzure_> It's pretty easy to push a flat plate into the brain
05:36 < gene> yeah it is
05:36 < kanzure_> It's done all the time for MEA studies in vivo.
05:36 < gene> but you damage a lot in the process
05:37 < kanzure_> Not with things like patch clamp methods,
05:37 < fenn> gene you could do something with plastic transistors on flexible plastic
05:37 < kanzure_> there's been a few articles about "self-guided tips" and scuh.
05:37 < kanzure_> flexible plastic sounds less intense. :)
05:37 < gene> Oh sorry, we didn't mean to erase your ability to do calculus
05:38 < kanzure_> Killing one or two neurons on the surface of the cortex doesn't quite work like that.
05:38 < kanzure_> but it's of course important to avoid.
05:38 < gene> we didn't mean to mess up your memory of your encryption key
05:38 < kanzure_> Who's this "we"?
05:38 < gene> it's a hypothetical
05:39 < gene> situation
05:39 < kanzure_> A few months ago I was thinking about getting the trepanation people to also do some implants while they are at it.
05:39 < gene> anyway
05:39 < gene> how do you get deep into the brain
05:39 < gene> err...
05:40 < kanzure_> You do deep stuff without MEAs. ;-)
05:40 < fenn> we = Lacuna, Inc.
05:40 < kanzure_> Lucana? who ?
05:40 < gene> how do you get a MEA deep into the brain
05:40 < gene> fenn it's hypothetical
05:40 < gene> with out messing up a bunch of stuff
05:40 < kanzure_> YOu don't get an MEA deep into the brain.
05:40 < kanzure_> That's like mashing a giant surface into your brain.
05:40 < kanzure_> You just want the electrode tips. 
05:40 < fenn> what's with all these sublet people wanting to keep their stupid furniture in the apt.. sheesh
05:40 < kanzure_> And even then you're cutting through a lot of tissue.
05:40 < kanzure_> fenn: huh?
05:41 < gene> I am talking about pushing in tiny wires between neurons
05:41 < gene> tiny wires
05:42 < kanzure_> gene: So, DeMarse does this kind of.
05:42 < kanzure_> What some people have been doing is getting some silicon surfaces, HFMA or whatever,
05:42 < gene> does he have wire with electrodes on them?
05:42 < kanzure_> drawing a PCB circuit on it
05:42 < gene> or a wire that is an electrode
05:42 < kanzure_> and then coating that same circuit pattern with neurotin or something
05:43 < kanzure_> maybe NGF, nerve growth factor
05:43 < kanzure_> and then adding a culture to the protocol
05:43 < kanzure_> So, then you have neurons growing at very specific locations
05:43 < kanzure_> and it's networked.
05:43 < gene> hmmm...
05:43 < kanzure_> So then you know the exact linkup and where to insert pins for ideal locations
05:43 < kanzure_> However, if it's on a surface anyway, just put it under a microscope.
05:43 < gene> so what would it take to expand my sensory and motor homunucli?
05:43 < kanzure_> and do typical patch glamp optical microscopy guidance.
05:44 < kanzure_> What would you consider 'expand' to be?
05:44 < gene> ability to use more arms at the same time
05:44 < gene> well I am AFK
05:45 < kanzure_> I suspect the state of the arm attachment is the more important factor ..
05:45 < gene> robotic arm
05:45 < gene> over the internet
05:45 < gene> or what not
05:45 < kanzure_> uh, no
05:45 < kanzure_> What's the physical connection?
05:45 < gene> wifi
05:45 < gene> blue tooth
05:46 < kanzure_> Your brain does not have a wifi or bluetooth receiver.
05:47 < kanzure_> For the record, the open source prosthetics people use some chest stuff for wacky third arm movement.
05:47 < gene> not yet it doesn't
05:47  * fenn suggests RFID since it needs no power source
05:48 < gene> yes it does fenn
05:48 < fenn> well, not inside your skull at least
05:49 < fenn> hmm or blood fuel cell
05:49 < fenn> n/m pay no attention to me
05:49 < kanzure_> Power-on on read request?
05:49 < kanzure_> that would be nice if it follows some "recently released calcium" rule or something
05:49 < kanzure_> erm, recent release of neurotransmitter effecting the concentration at the electrode tip
05:50 < fenn> hyperventilate to turn on brain prosthetic :)
05:50 < kanzure_> and this being read as input when it gets transmitted power
05:50 < kanzure_> but anyway,
05:50 < kanzure_> the MEAs already tend to use electrical in
05:50 < kanzure_> uh
05:50 < kanzure_> I forget the terminology
05:50 < kanzure_> but they do not require batteries.
05:50 < kanzure_> same concept as microwave energy transmission
05:50 < fenn> RFID basically
05:50 < kanzure_> Really?
05:51 < fenn> induced current in a coil right?
05:51 < kanzure_> because this uses some funky hardcore EM principles for transduction or something
05:51 < kanzure_> yeah
05:51 < fenn> the higher frequency the smaller the coil can be
05:51 < kanzure_> the papers are good btw, especially the Shazaku or whatever paper
05:51  * kanzure_ checks
05:53 < kanzure_> blah, the Irazaquui guy or whatever
05:53 < kanzure_> can't remember his name or the link in the ~bbishop/docs/neuro/ dir.
05:53 < kanzure_> heh, one of the names in there is 'Arfin'. Scott Arfin hit me up over gmail once about me having his paper in that directory ..
05:53 < kanzure_> he was actually glad to see it there.
05:54 < kanzure_> He did MEA + bird studies.
05:54 < fenn> most people are sensible
05:54 < kanzure_> gasp
05:54 < fenn> um, as far as redistributing their papers, i mean
05:57  * fenn wants a song extractor brain prosthesis
05:58 < kanzure_> That sounds like the start to a bad fairytale.
05:58 < fenn> once upon a time, there was a prince with a song stuck in his head
05:58 < kanzure_> "Help! The evil mad scientist has stolen the song from all the birds!"
05:58 < kanzure_> enter mario
05:58 < kanzure_> or something.
05:58 < fenn> doctor robotnik
06:01 < kanzure_> I still like my copy of "Once upon a galaxy"
06:02 < kanzure_> and I only wish it was an anime novelization instead a collection of science fiction fairytales
06:11 < kanzure_> fenn: Do you see Nathan's post on "open enterprise"?
06:11 < gene> kanzure I believe the MEA you are referring to work like transformers
06:11 < kanzure_> I don't think Nathan understands how easy it is to code up some HR dept apps for his 'enterprise'
06:11 < kanzure_> gene: Did you read any of the papers?
06:11 < kanzure_> or at least glance
06:11 < gene> no
06:12 < kanzure_> You should trust the documents over me, in this case.
06:12 < gene> lol doctor robotnik
06:12 < gene> how much access do you have to the ME server?
06:12 < gene> are you root?
06:12 < kanzure_> None at the moment, I don't know its address.
06:13 < gene> damn
06:13 < kanzure_> kanzure- isn't logged in, so something bad happened.
06:13 < gene> well the ME server is sorta broken right now
06:13 < kanzure_> what?
06:13 < kanzure_> I don't think you know how servers work
06:13 < kanzure_> There are multiple servers in the mechanical engineering department.
06:13 < gene> it's broken as far as I am concerned
06:13 < gene> it's not letting me save files and stuff on it
06:14 < gene> which is fucking annoying
06:14 < kanzure_> You don't have access to the server I deployed.
06:14 < gene> oh
06:14 < gene> I have to write functions in matlab
06:14 < gene> which means I have to save them in the same folder as matlab
06:15 < gene> but I can
06:15 < gene> t
06:15 < gene> because the ME server won't let me
06:16 < gene> so anyway want to help me with our project?
06:16 < kanzure_> Which project?
06:16 < gene> catapult v2
06:17 < kanzure_> What's up with that anyway? You're not getting credit for it, and I think he's only printing the stuff we've snet him, which was the other parts we've emailed him.
06:17 < kanzure_> *sent
06:17 < gene> crap
06:17 < gene> you already sent the part's?
06:17 < kanzure_> I cc'd you ..
06:17 < gene> what do you mean I am not getting credit
06:18 < kanzure_> well
06:18 < gene> I made most of the parts
06:18 < kanzure_> that's not what I'm talking about
06:18 < gene> what for improving the catapult?
06:19 < kanzure_> yeah. I mean, it's cool and everything, but it's not something I'm spending time on because of other things going on
06:19 < gene> ok
06:19 < kanzure_> and also because it's not for credit
06:19 < gene> I know
06:19 < fenn> aha i figured out what the song was stuck in my head.. it's from this video: http://www.wehi.edu.au/wehi-tv/others/movies/WTV_Lge_v3.mov
06:19 < gene> well then
06:20 < fenn> just doing my meme-propagation duty
06:20 < gene> I didn't know that you already sent the parts
06:20 < kanzure_> I cc'd you.
06:20 < gene> did you say it was all the parts?
06:20 < kanzure_> no
06:21 < gene> excellent
06:22 < kanzure_> yeah, so feel free to email him stuff I guess, but I don't know if there's a guarantee that he will print it.
06:23 < gene> I can't download the stuff 
06:23 < gene> damn
06:23 < kanzure_> huh?
06:23 < kanzure_> download?
06:23 < gene> the zip
06:23 < kanzure_> email would require uploading
06:23 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/me302/project/ should have the zip
06:24 < gene> um
06:30 < kanzure_> I really really doubt that Nathan gets how easy it's supposed to be. 
06:31 < kanzure_> you could code some of the modules with less words than Nathan took to write that email
06:32 < fenn> nathan == knuggy?
06:32 < kanzure_> yes.
06:32 < kanzure_> um, his name is written right next to knuggy
06:32 < kanzure_> what interface are you using?
06:32 < fenn> must be some feature of your address book. i'm using pine
06:32 < kanzure_> I'm using gmail at the moment.
06:33 < kanzure_> when the laptop ressurrects itself, it's back to kmail for me.
06:33 < kanzure_> er,,
06:33 < kanzure_> I'm using the gmail web interface at the moment
06:34 < fenn> this sorta sounds like a One True Prophet
06:34 < kanzure_> ref?
06:34  * fenn shrugs
06:34 < fenn> big talk and short on details
06:34 < kanzure_> oh.
06:34 < kanzure_> yes.
06:35 < kanzure_> I don't want to be a prick, but I really should reply with "This would take less words to program than it took you to write it .. shut up and code."
06:35 < kanzure_> or really "shut up and go install a few drupal mods"
06:35 < kanzure_> that's what I did with Andrew Hessel (oops) on diybio
06:35 < kanzure_> "I was thinking of blah blah blah .. spending my christmas break .. blah blah blah.. "
06:35 < fenn> why (oops)
06:35 < kanzure_> "Uh, Andrew, .. here's the modules"
06:36  * fenn doesnt follow diybio
06:36 < fenn> hard enough keeping up with openmanufacturing :)
06:36 < kanzure_> bad idea to smite those that you try to follow closely
06:36 < kanzure_> I mean, I talk big about Andrew :)
06:36 < kanzure_> since his open source biology kill-teh-cancer stuff is good.
06:36 < kanzure_> but here he is taking a few too many weeks on a community website thingy that is installed one-click with drupal?
06:37 < kanzure_> wtf?
06:37 < fenn> is he the radio frequency treatment guy?
06:37 < kanzure_> no no
06:37 < kanzure_> he's oncolytic virus guy
06:37 < fenn> sounds.. tricky
06:37 < kanzure_> he's "target an individual patient's cancer with genetically engineered viruses or whatever the hell we can to attack that *particular* mutation"
06:37 < kanzure_> yeah, so he has some bio toolchain and stuff
06:37 < kanzure_> sounds much like the biotech toolkit implemented for a specific purpose
06:38 < kanzure_> met Andrew up at biobarcamp in CA
06:38 < kanzure_> and he knew me before I knew him
06:39 < kanzure_> so it was freaky.
06:39 < fenn> that usually is
06:39 < fenn> unless you're used to it
06:39 < fenn> i should take him up on his book offer
06:39 < kanzure_> I don't think I'll ever be used to it.
06:39 < kanzure_> wha?
06:39 < kanzure_> oh, the biology book stuff?
06:40 < fenn> just some open source book
06:40 < kanzure_> something like that was moving around on the diybio mailing list a few months ago.
06:40 < kanzure_> are you talking about nathan?
06:40 < fenn> "These ideas are explored in Open Sources 2.0, which is published by O'Reilly and is, ironically, not open source. I'll send you a PDF if you ask for one."
06:40 < kanzure_> ah, Andrew.
06:40 < kanzure_> on his openwetware page
06:40 < kanzure_> I never did. 
06:40 < kanzure_> ahessel@gmail.com IIRC
06:41 < fenn> hah role model manfred macx
06:42 < kanzure_> I also have a few of his videos on the server
06:42 < kanzure_> like his SENS3 talk.
06:43 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/books/Hessel_biofab.flv
06:44 < kanzure_> His SENS3 talk was much like his biobarcamp talk except less polished.
06:44 < gene> http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189
06:45 < kanzure_> What is that?
06:45 < gene> link unrelated to current topic
06:45 < gene> but other topic
06:45 < gene> one the most advanced factories in the world
06:45 < kanzure_> the Saturn factory?
06:45 < gene> of course it isn't fully automated
06:48 < gene> ignore last few seconds of video
06:51 < gene> kanzure did you get the new version of Make?
06:51 < kanzure_> the program or the magazine?
06:51 < gene> magazine
06:51 < kanzure_> No.
06:52 < kanzure_> Do you have scans?
06:52 < gene> the digital edition yes
06:52 < kanzure_> link?
06:52 < gene> I can email you one page
06:53 < kanzure_> One page?
06:53 < gene> and that's pretty much it
06:53 < kanzure_> how abotu all of them.
06:53 < gene> I can't
06:53 < kanzure_> uh?
06:53 < kanzure_> Then how are you seeing them?
06:53 < gene> it's a software viewer lol
06:53 < kanzure_> what the fuck
06:53 < gene> it's in my browser
06:53 < gene> yes I know it sucks
06:54 < fenn> like google books?
06:54 < fenn> heh they know their readers are cheapasses
06:54 < gene> sorta like google books
06:55 < gene> cept you have to login
06:55 < kanzure_> Have you tried reversing the protocol or writing a scraper?
06:55 < gene> no
06:55 < gene> kanzure
06:55 < kanzure_> yes, so put that on the todo list
06:55 < gene> I can't program that good
06:56 < gene> anyway
06:56 < fenn> god cars are so stupid
06:56 < kanzure_> you were born just breathing,
06:56 < kanzure_> so stop complaining.
06:56 < gene> they have an article about hacking an ultrasonic atomizer
06:56 < kanzure_> go look at perl's HTML:: modules from cpan.org for starters
06:56 < kanzure_> I was using HTML::TreeBuilder and HTML::Agent or something 
06:56 < kanzure_> when I was ripping nature.
06:56 < gene> useful, not useful?
06:57 < fenn> maybe we should put this in the topic: http://www.nataliedee.com/090208/you-are-free-to-learn-how-to-do-stuff-at-any-time.jpg
06:57 < kanzure_> They have functions for "click, submit button," etc., so it's not useful for javascript, you have to go read the javascript code and pretend you're the browser and just figure out what calls they are making
06:57 < kanzure_> fenn: go ahead
06:57 < fenn> meh, i hate topics
06:57 < kanzure_> heh
06:58 < gene> an ultrsonic atomizer does pretty much the same thing as a sonicator
06:58 < kanzure_> while interesting, I'm more interested in the entire source rather than just an individual article
06:58 < kanzure_> maybe you should look at the code I was using for ripping sciencedirect
06:58 < gene> speaking of ultrasound
06:59 < gene> http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1564
06:59 < gene> I want to build one of these
06:59 < fenn> there sure are a lot of people in that car factory doing robotable jobs
06:59 < gene> yeah
06:59 < gene> fenn there are
06:59 < gene> people are cheap
06:59 < gene> and they also replicate too
06:59 < fenn> so wtf is the point of the video
06:59 < fenn> "look a factory"
07:00 < fenn> "ford is amazingly backward in US factories"
07:00 < gene> it's a lot more automated than anything else
07:00 < fenn> not really
07:00 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/books/followlinks.pl for instance
07:00 < gene> that's not important fenn forget that immediately
07:00 < gene> ok
07:00 < gene> so then
07:00 < fenn> forgot
07:00 < gene> about ultrasound
07:00 < fenn> fog machine
07:01 < gene> good idea fenn
07:01 < gene> exactly what I was thinking
07:01 < gene> use the piezo disk from a fog machine
07:01 < gene> to make one of these
07:01 < gene> http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1564
07:02 < gene> I wonder if plain ol buzzer piezoes would work
07:03 < fenn> i dont get what focuses it
07:03 < gene> a horn
07:03 < gene> the conical thing on the front focuses it
07:03 < gene> sound is different from light fenn
07:04 < gene> sound doesn't like to go from solid to air
07:04 < fenn> neither does light
07:04 < gene> so it goes to solid
07:04 < gene> as the sound move toward the tip of the cone it gets more intense
07:04 < kanzure_> more what now?
07:04 < fenn> yeah but that shouldnt keep it focused in a beam
07:05 < fenn> kanzure_: higher pressure level
07:05 < kanzure_> okay.
07:05 < gene> I don't know acoustics fenn
07:06 < kanzure_> so the surface area of the opening of the horn is less than the conical opening at the non-output area of the horn?
07:06 < gene> yeah
07:06 < gene> I think you mean input area
07:06 < gene> at least that's what I reason
07:06 < fenn> cross sectional area
07:06 < kanzure_> first opening should have been 'outputing' 
07:07 < kanzure_> okay.
07:07 < fenn> with enough piezo discs they could make a phased array, but i guess it wouldnt look gun-like enough
07:07 < gene> they already have phased arrays
07:08 < gene> they use em for crowd control
07:08 < gene> this thing works sorta like a laser
07:08 < fenn> yes
07:08 < gene> sound pulse from one disk
07:08 < gene> gets to next disk 
07:08 < kanzure_> Where's that acoustic laser ref?
07:08 < fenn> with no inversion though
07:08 < gene> disk fires
07:08 < gene> and so forth and so on
07:08 < fenn> the disks should be "cocked" first if it were to be more like a laser
07:09 < fenn> SASER :P
07:09 < gene> hence sorta like a laser
07:09 < fenn> say it with a lithp
07:10 < kanzure_> but really, there was a 'saser' or something
07:10 < kanzure_> search teh logs for 'acoustic'. we don't say that word much around here.
07:10 < fenn> "scientists invent poop-yer-pants ray"
07:10 < kanzure_> I'd make one.
07:11 < fenn> not in my logs
07:11 < kanzure_> hrm.
07:11 < gene> dude
07:11 < gene> this sonic ray
07:11 < gene> can knock things over
07:11 < gene> like cows
07:11 < fenn> mooo
07:12 < gene> or crates
07:12 < fenn> or TERRISTS
07:12 < gene> almost like the gravity gun
07:12 < gene> in half life
07:12 < gene> except with out the ability to attract things
07:13 < fenn> well this looks fairly simple construction: http://www.acs.psu.edu/thermoacoustics/refrigeration/Acoustic Laser Demo - Instructions.pdf
07:14 < gene> the page could not be found
07:14 < fenn> i'm so not inserting %20's for you
07:15 < kanzure_> hah
07:15 < kanzure_> fenn: what's up with konqueror's URL copying anyway?
07:15 < kanzure_> I guess that's worth a codefix. I'm sure urlencode() is in their codebase already somewhere.
07:15 < kanzure_> um
07:15 < gene> fenn your URL is made of fail
07:15 < kanzure_> s/codefix/bug report/
07:16 < kanzure_> gene: it's a byproduct of konqueror's URL copying mechanism
07:16 < kanzure_> the URL is correct,
07:16 < fenn> not my fault your irc client cant understand spaces
07:16 < kanzure_> but your client thinks it's only a link up to the space
07:17 < fenn> another day another.. well.. nothing really
07:17 < fenn> g'nite
07:17 < gene> I tried putting in _
07:17 < gene> in the spaces
07:17 < kanzure_> no
07:17 < gene> but it don't work
07:17 < gene> doesn't
07:17 < kanzure_> why did you put in _
07:17 < gene> I assumed that's what the spaces were
07:17 < kanzure_> .. why?
07:18 < gene> I didn't know you could spaces in a URL
07:19 < gene> that's not a laser
07:19 < gene> not even close to one
07:21 < gene> they're just calling it one
07:22 < gene> http://www.non-lethal-weapons.com/sy03abstracts/P40.pdf
07:22 < gene> whoa
07:22 < gene> these things are huge
07:22 < gene> 1 m long
07:23 < gene> oh wait that isn't a paper
07:23 < gene> it's just an abstract
07:28  * kanzure_ notices the time.
07:28 < kanzure_> huh. good reason for me to be tired.
07:30 < gene> yeah I did too
12:49 < UtopiahGHML> Im not sure about who talked about 2nd life community/data being crappy and who didn't try Croquet yet but maybe http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/7729963.stm could motivate a bit 
15:21 < nsh> meh
17:22 < kanzure> This is getting out of hand. Now Paul is bullying Nathan about his document's licensing.
17:23 < kanzure> Next he'll be doing a standard reply to each email "squawk, I don't know if I'm allowed to read this or not"
17:29 < kanzure_> http://www.flickr.com/photos/arenamontanus/3033410799/
19:49 < kanzure> Heh. George Dvorsky tweeting about #converge: "This conference could double as an Asperger's convention."
19:54 < kanzure> So what should I do. Sit around doing nothing today, or go take the drugs and throw off my sleeping schedule and possibly rip a hole in the fabric of the spacetime continuum (but get lots done)?
19:59 -!- UtopiahG1ML is now known as UtopiahGHML
20:23 < kanzure_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr-GXnNN37c <- What are they even supposed to be doing here? I'm so glad Microsoft isn't the final say in, anything at all.
20:27 < kanzure_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si2-gotn5uE "More than 40,000 factories across the U.S. have been shut down." Huh? Where can I go raid these then?
20:27 < kanzure_> I think they might be lying.
20:27 < kanzure_> around 3:00
20:29 < fenn> haha seat performance +0.6%
20:29 < kanzure> hey this is the INTERNET. this shit is IMPORTANT. 
20:30 < fenn> too bad its a bunch of gray executives driving stupid cars
20:30 < fenn> "shut down" = disassembled and shipped to china
20:33 < fenn> uhhhhhh only 12% of our GDP is manufacturing???
20:33 < fenn> holy crap
20:34 < fenn> i must not understand how GDP is calculated
20:48 < fenn> oh i love flash, it's the greatest thing ever
20:48 < fenn> UtopiahGHML: could you summarize that croquet video for me?
20:49 < UtopiahGHML> fenn: I dont think it was about Croquet itself but just about using 3D env. at school
20:49 < UtopiahGHML> for history, physics, etc
20:52 < UtopiahGHML> it was a BBC vid and like most, the references are pretty bad (if existant...)
20:55 < UtopiahGHML> Ill try croquet when Ill have a clean semantic wiki and be able to generate my croquet universe automatically
20:55 < UtopiahGHML> but for now it's not a priority.
21:39 -!- Utopiah is now known as UtopiahGHML