--- Day changed Wed Nov 19 2008
00:07 < kanzure> huh
00:08 < kanzure> well there's a good reason for your statement not making any sense
00:08 < kanzure> I thought you were speaking in tongues
00:08 < kanzure> but could you answer me, how exactly do you intend to change that?
00:13 < kanzure_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBt4vQMeTvc 
00:13 < kanzure_> "Advanced sugar rocket fuel strand test *2.71seconds per inch"
00:16 < kanzure_> http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/11/18/1725231 "Crowdsourcing site offers rewards to bust patents" (via finding prior art)
00:16 < kanzure_> hm.
00:17 < kanzure_> incentives to find prior art. bleh. I was hoping it was something more.
00:38 < procto> kanzure_: you say that a lot, and I'm rever sure why, since the description is usually pretty simple :>>
00:38 < procto> never*
00:38 < kanzure> I say what alot?
00:39 < kanzure> *a lot
00:40  * fenn guesses "speaking in tongues"
00:41 < fenn> no, no need to give me a cookie, i've already had plenty
00:41 < kanzure> procto: ?
00:42 < kanzure> may I attribute this to an aspieism?
00:42 < kanzure> assuming that people are talking about what I'm talking about?
00:42 < fenn> i think it's IRC-ism
00:43 < kanzure> well, it all became very reasonable when I went back and found that you were talking about something entirely else.
00:43 < kanzure> "but that's impossible! how could it be about something _else_!"
00:43 < fenn> which line in particular were you talking about?
00:44 < kanzure> `the one immediately after you flagged me
00:44 < kanzure> "it's to make up for the inadequacies ..."
00:44 < fenn> uh, could you give me a timestamp or something?
00:44 < fenn> ok
00:49 < kanzure> so are you going to answer me or not.
00:49 < kanzure> heh'
00:50 < fenn> "i think it's IRC-ism" was my answer
00:51 < fenn> unless you are talking to procto.. hm
00:51 < kanzure> no
00:51 < kanzure> you said "I intend to fix this"
00:51 < kanzure> and I asked "how"
00:51 < kanzure> and got confused way up there
00:51 < fenn> ah ok
00:51 < fenn> through making tools that encourage end-user-driven production
00:51 < fenn> design for disassembly, design reuse, etc
00:52 < kanzure> huh? what good would that do? "show them how hard it really is"? 
00:52 < kanzure> "i dont know where people get the idea that making stuff is cheap and easy even if you dont know what you're doing"
00:52 < fenn> how hard it is to build a small milling machine?
00:52 < fenn> no, the idea is to make it easier by giving them the tools and step-by-step tutorials
00:54 < fenn> right now stuff is so hard to design and build that it takes a team of engineers to get the per-unit cost down enough to make mass production feasible
00:54 < fenn> so we end up with only mass production tailored designs
00:54 < fenn> but an extra 500% in materials cost wouldnt break the bank for most people
00:55 < fenn> (compared to mass produced design)
00:55 < fenn> hmm that sentence didnt quite come out right
00:55 < drazak> I dunno
00:56 < drazak> I think I could make something, given good instructions/pictures, without knowing anything about it beforehand
00:56 < kanzure> underlying all of that, we're not really working off of many case studies here
00:56 < kanzure> show me the full design notes for one of these "designed for mass production" systems
00:56 < fenn> designing stuff takes lots of time and effort, so you have to have a team of engineers to get that much effort, so you have to recoup your investment in engineering by making thousands of copies, so you might as well custom tailor each design because it's going to be in a million copies..
00:56 < kanzure> full set of designs, schematics, calculations, all of that jazz
00:57 < fenn> well i was thinking CD-ROM drives
00:57 < fenn> drazak: do you have any examples of things you've built? or are you simply proving my statement?
00:58 < fenn> of course "given good instructions/pictures" never happens in reality
00:58 < drazak> fenn: I'm just saying that building stuff is easy, given someone else telling you how to build it who knows his shit
00:59 < drazak> I've built some headphone amps and crap
00:59 < fenn> i dont know.. especially with mechanical stuff, it's so easy to leave out details that you dont even know you know
01:00 < fenn> circuit boards are computationally simple to assemble
01:00 < fenn> that's why we use them
01:01 < drazak> well no
01:01 < drazak> the point is, a mechanical thing can bejust as simple
01:01 < drazak> also
01:01 < drazak> bbl house/fringe
01:01 < fenn> "so easy a robot could do it"
01:02  * kanzure scoffs
01:02 < kanzure> scoff feels like an ancient c function.
01:03 < fenn> scoffs("%02d", intensity)
01:03 < procto> kanzure: you say "i expected more"
01:03 < kanzure> procto: Oh, that? 
01:03 < kanzure> I was hoping that something like that getting to Slashdot would be more than just about typical IP bullshit
01:03 < kanzure> but instead maybe something about open hardware directories
01:04 < procto> that's one of my main goals with seasteading
01:04 < kanzure> have you mentioned this before?
01:04 < kanzure> or is it something on logarchy that I've neglected to remember?
01:04 < fenn> so you're building another guptastan outpost?
01:05 < procto> i.e. you can infringe on patents or whatever you want 
01:05 < procto> when you're out of the EEZ
01:05 < procto> even before manufacturing can be done on a personal basis with home fabbers
01:05 < procto> we can float small semi-automated shops
01:06 < kanzure> international zoning law thingies?
01:06 < kanzure> erm, seasteading as in, Project Atlantis?
01:06 < fenn> uh, but you can only use them in international waters, correct?
01:06 < procto> no, seasteading as in the seasteading institute
01:06 < kanzure> uh, what about the float bounce factor?
01:07 < procto> http://seasteading.org
01:07 < procto> there's a whole book up on that site
01:07 < kanzure> but I don't think we really care about infringing on land for free
01:07 < fenn> like if you have some patented dentures, you could only wear them while out at sea
01:07 < procto> peruse at your leisure
01:07 < kanzure> who cares? read a few patents, make some stuff
01:07 < procto> fenn: well, being as I plan on being at sea, that is not a problem
01:07 < kanzure> not all of the design information is in patents
01:07 < kanzure> and if it was, things would be much easier
01:07 < procto> certainly not
01:07 < procto> but it's a start
01:08 < fenn> procto: the nice thing about being within the limits of the law is that you dont have to worry so much about being bullied by large organizations with guns, but this can happen quite easily on the open ocean
01:08 < procto> can it?
01:08 < fenn> yep
01:08 < kanzure> not really, where are you getting materials?
01:08 < procto> on what basis is that assumption that they would bother?
01:09 < fenn> history
01:09 < fenn> admittedly, i'm not a historian
01:09 < procto> in fact, it's usually the opposite
01:09 < fenn> but i seem to recall some seastead being attacked for no particular reason
01:09 < procto> in the most famous cases, large organization sponsored privateers
01:09 < procto> such as with Francis Drake
01:09 < fenn> you mean, hired thugs to loot and pillage?
01:09 < fenn> somehow this doesnt make me feel safe
01:09 < kanzure> japanese corporate warships
01:10 < procto> however, in general, piracy occurs when there is a particular ratio of wealth to difficulty
01:10 < procto> as long as you keep your stuff on the sea
01:10 < procto> and don't then sell it in countries
01:10 < procto> you aren't really hurting those orgs that would bother with guns
01:10 < procto> governments are the scariest ones
01:10 < procto> because they migt be pissed off at you just on principle
01:10 < fenn> you're confusing "pirate" as in violent thief, with "pirate" the non-violent civil disobedient of the late 20th century
01:10 < procto> and they really have the big guns
01:11 < procto> no... I am using the term "pirate" here in the contexts of armed robbers on the sea
01:11 < procto> as is quite clear from context
01:11 < gene_> make guns?
01:11 < kanzure> fenn: if you have the materials to make a floating city thing, or a floating home of some sort, such as on a boat,
01:11 < kanzure> then I don't see why you can't build weapons
01:11 < procto> make guns? and be raped of the US coast guard?
01:11 < procto> by*
01:12 < gene_> machine guns
01:12 < gene_> oh
01:12 < gene_> sea steading
01:12 < fenn> procto: so, if i operate a pharmaceutical factory 200 miles outside of san fransisco, you think nobody would give a shit?
01:12 < gene_> the DEA might
01:12 < gene_> the FDA might
01:12 < gene_> but then again
01:12 < procto> fenn: of course they would. but if you operate a pharmaceutical factory that only caters to other seasteads
01:12 < fenn> kanzure: you can build weapons, but _they_ have fucking bombers and cruise missiles and nuclear submarines
01:12 < kanzure> no, I mean build weapons for protecting yourself
01:13 < procto> rather further out
01:13 < gene_> electrochemical machining is particulary suited to making parts from hard material
01:13 < kanzure> hm
01:13 < kanzure> I am experiencing significant lag
01:13 < procto> kanzure: I understand. but no gov't would look kindly upon that. after all, protecting people with deadly force is their monopoly
01:13 < gene_> even titanium
01:13 < fenn> procto: "other seastead" i.e. "nobody"
01:13 < kanzure> procto: you said something about pirates stealing your shit
01:13 < kanzure> or fenn said it
01:13 < gene_> hmm...
01:13 < kanzure> so I said build guns
01:13 < fenn> procto: then again i suppose you could grow pot in your basement, as long as you didnt sell it to anyone
01:14 < procto> I think you just assumed I mean to start building huge factories
01:14 < procto> and then see where it goes
01:14 < gene_> if nuke a tiny sea stead
01:14 < procto> that doesn't make sense at all
01:14 < kanzure> procto: you still haven't told me where you are getting your materials from.
01:14 < gene_> they get a lot of flak
01:14 < kanzure> fenn: who is _they_ ?
01:14 < gene_> the ocean?
01:14 < fenn> kanzure: US Navy
01:14 < procto> kanzure: shipped from land, of course. where else?
01:14 < gene_> what materials do you need?
01:14 < kanzure> procto: still waiting to figure out where you're getting your metals from.
01:15 < gene_> the sea
01:15 < procto> you folks are assuming I'm going about this the wrong way before even thinking about how one really wound go about it
01:15 < gene_> kanzure
01:15 < procto> kanzure: I just said, shipped from mines, just like everyone else
01:15 < gene_> kanzure
01:15 < kanzure> fenn: oh please.
01:15 < gene_> magnesium is made from sea water
01:15 < fenn> procto: how do you get a ship to come out to your tiny seastead for every little thing you need?
01:15 < kanzure> procto: bull fucking shit, "shipped from land" - where?
01:15 < kanzure> procto: be more specific
01:15 < gene_> magnesium is made from sea water
01:15 < kanzure> procto: material suppliers rarely communicate with small time operations
01:15 < procto> kanzure: ok, where do you get your raw materials now?
01:15 < gene_> magnesium is made from sea water
01:15 < kanzure> fenn: nah, that's not the problem, small ships coming out to you .. bah. just have your own.
01:16 < kanzure> procto: I don't, because I'm a pussy
01:16 < kanzure> procto: but I should, and I get anxious about it
01:16 < kanzure> procto: that's why I have my mindat datasets
01:16 < procto> when I said "my plans", I didn't mean "first thing I do when I get on the sea"
01:16 < gene_> magnesium is made from FUCKING sea water
01:16 < kanzure> and why I try to infiltrate legitimate operations like onlinemetals to try to get them to do B2B properly
01:16 < gene_> Although magnesium is found in over 60 minerals, only dolomite, magnesite, brucite, carnallite, talc, and olivine are of commercial importance.
01:16 < gene_> In the United States this metal is principally obtained by electrolysis of fused magnesium chloride from brines, wells, and sea water:
01:16 < gene_>     cathode: Mg2+ + 2 e- -> Mg
01:16 < gene_>     anode: 2 Cl- -> Cl2 (gas) + 2 e-
01:16 < gene_> Vapor-deposited magnesium crystals from the Pidgeon process
01:16 < gene_> The United States has traditionally been the major world supplier of this metal, supplying 45% of world production even as recently as 1995. Today, the US market share is at 7%, with a single domestic producer left, US Magnesium, a company born from now-defunct Magcorp.[4] As of 2005 China has taken over as the dominant supplier, pegged at 60% world market share, which increased from 4% in...
01:17 < gene_> ...1995. Unlike the above described electrolytic process, China is almost completely reliant on a different method of obtaining the metal from its ores, the silicothermic Pidgeon process (the reduction of the oxide at high temperatures with silicon).
01:17 < gene_> ban time
01:17  * fenn yawns
01:17 < procto> if one intends to be a seasteader, small scale living is the initial goal
01:17 < procto> manufacturing of any scale can only exist when there is a local market to support it
01:17 < procto> JUST LIKE ON LAND
01:17 < fenn> gene_: go read "the millenial project"
01:17 < kanzure> why deoesn't gene get kicked for pasting ever
01:17 < fenn> unfortunately "seament" doesnt actually work
01:17 < fenn> kanzure: because you havent registered the channel, so there's no chanserv bot
01:18 < kanzure> procto: bull.
01:18 < procto> seacrete doesn't, you're right
01:18 < procto> but what about ferroconcrete
01:18 < procto> kanzure: what's bull?
01:18 < kanzure> just saying "small scale living! yay for being disconnected from your material sources!"
01:18 < procto> kanzure: no...
01:18 < gene_> you know there is a whole bunch of shit dissolved in seawater
01:18 < kanzure> procto: I don't care about your stupid markets
01:18 < gene_> there are also manganese nodules at the bottom of the ocean
01:19 < kanzure> procto: just saying "I'll live in laland, small supplies! yay for not having anything to work with .." ..
01:19 < fenn> there are also sunken tankers at the bottom of the ocean
01:19 < gene_> you have a point there
01:19 < gene_> fenn
01:19 < gene_> there are also sunken cargo ships full of metals
01:19 < fenn> kanzure: this is why i gave up on seasteading, because it's actually more difficult than living on the moon
01:19 < procto> kanzure: instead of addressing every single tiny problem that your bring up live on IRC, and contending with that you assume I am about 20x stupider that I am, I am going to pull a Bryan Bishop and link you to a very large text that should address much of what you bring up
01:20 < gene_> why is it harder than living on the moon?
01:20 < procto> kanzure: http://seasteading.org/seastead.org/book_beta/full_book_beta.html
01:20 < procto> kanzure: warning, large file
01:20 < kanzure> procto: But I'm *not* addressing every single point of yours
01:20 < kanzure> procto: I'm talking about a very singular issue
01:20 < gene_> you don't have to make your own oxygen on earth
01:20 < kanzure> procto: but I'll look :)
01:20 < gene_> btw, what's steel made from?
01:20 < procto> kanzure: ok, then I'll address it in this way
01:20 < kanzure> procto: it's fenn that is bringing up the many little issues, btw.
01:21 < kanzure> which are interesting points, but
01:21 < kanzure> I previously solved those little points with the cult I was in when I was 12 etc.
01:21 < gene_> actually considering it you might be right fenn
01:21 < procto> kanzure: there is already a large community ef people who live on the sea, called live-aboards
01:21 < fenn> getting blown to smithereens isnt exactly a little issue
01:21 < procto> kanzure: there is another large community, it's called the cruiseship industry
01:21 < kanzure> procto: the cruiseship industry has large B2B business contacts thingies and large consulting fees for bullshit material sourcing stuffs
01:21 < gene_> now if we could only buy a cheap cruise ship
01:22 < procto> kanzure: just to demonstrate that resource starvation isn't really a problem, when your very location is mobile
01:22 < gene_> and put a factory in it
01:22 < gene_> so what materials do you need for a seastead?
01:22 < procto> kanzure: forget about manufacturing for a moment
01:23 < kanzure> Sigh.\
01:23 < procto> kanzure: think of just living. let's assume a population of seasteaders living on seastdeas made close to land, with things made on land inside them
01:23 < kanzure> No, I refuse to go into one-time use staticism.
01:23 < gene_> what materials are required?
01:23 < procto> gene_: in the book
01:23 < kanzure> one-time acquisition, I mean.
01:23 < gene_> and how do you deal with waves?
01:23 < procto> gene_: some
01:23 < gene_> what book?
01:23 < procto> gene_: see my link to kanzure 
01:24 < procto> kanzure: here's the deal. developing industry on a seastead will only be different in one major way from the same thing on land: the logistics of getting to oceanic location-
01:25 < procto> kanzure: you want those b2b contracts? you start a business. get investors. register it in Vanuatu, and you're on
01:25 < kanzure> but that's totally bullshit
01:26 < procto> ok, let's put it like this. How do you start a factory in the US?
01:26 < kanzure> wait, what's Vanuatu?
01:26 < procto> it's a country
01:26 < kanzure> another arbitrary RosettaNet, ebXML, EDI thing?
01:26 < fenn> vanuatu = data haven
01:26 < kanzure> procto: Why does it have to be in the US?
01:26 < fenn> because you live in the US
01:26 < kanzure> the way that you start a factory is <see designs + instructions here> but oh wait, nobody does it like this anyway and doesn't have a clue
01:26 < procto> kanzure: I'm just curious. doesn't have to be. just an example hele.
01:26 < kanzure> oh
01:26 < kanzure> not a directory
01:26 < procto> no
01:27 < procto> all I'm saying is this
01:27 < procto> starting a factory is starting a factory
01:27 < procto> you need capital
01:27 < procto> you need materials
01:27 < procto> and you need transportation of those materials. this you can purchase with the capital.
01:27 < procto> on land, you need trucks or whatever
01:27 < kanzure> Not arguing about that ..
01:27 < kanzure> sigh
01:28 < procto> en the sea, you need a ship, which would probably be more expensive
01:28 < procto> and so it depends on whether you have the capital
01:28 < kanzure> look, just because you want to bend over and pay millions for your stupid material sourcing ventures, doesn't mean that this is optimal or ideal or worth doing for the expected return
01:28 < gene_> or you live on a ship
01:28 < gene_> heh
01:28 < gene_> expected reture
01:28 < fenn> OMG kanzure is showing signs of economic thinking :)
01:28 < gene_> return
01:28 < procto> ok, I see the problem here
01:28 < gene_> I thought you weren't for profit kanzure
01:29 < kanzure> well yeah, "click here to get your steel! oh wait, sorry, bad credit. fuck you too."
01:29 < kanzure> not talking about money :)
01:29 < procto> first, I will employ iterative incremental development in my personal seasteading ventures
01:29 < kanzure> I revert to an attention-is-worth-stuff model when talking quickly, sorry.
01:30 < procto> i'm not going to plonk down 20 mil on go "build me a floating city" because that is bullshit
01:30 < procto> s/on/and
01:30 < gene_> you need to have something fairly big to not go "rocky hilton"
01:30 < kanzure> so the alternative that I've been considering is automated robotic mining of abandoned mines for an open source energy+material backbone
01:30 < gene_> a rocking factory is hard to make stuff in
01:31 < kanzure> for the energy backbone this is somewhat easier with algaes
01:31 < gene_> so why do mines get a abandoned kanzure?
01:31 < kanzure> for materials, there's a database of abandoned mines
01:31 < procto> my initial statement was that one could deploy small fab shops on a ship that can build things on small scales, with impunity in regards to patent laws
01:31 < procto> increase the scale
01:31 < procto> and your problems grow exponentially
01:31 < kanzure> gene_: structural instability sometimes
01:31 < procto> as they always do
01:31 < gene_> that's good to hear
01:31 < kanzure> robots that build themselves, what do I care if they get smashed? (besides crying a bit inside)
01:32 < fenn> poor robots
01:32 < kanzure> fenn: that feels like a shirt.
01:32 < gene_> reminds me of the time when they were testing this one walking robot for destroying landmines by walking on to them
01:32 < kanzure> "POOR ROBOT. :(" on the front. on the back: "Markov in training" or something.
01:32 < kanzure> gene_: why walking, and not rolling?
01:32 < kanzure> besides rocky territory issues.
01:32 < gene_> the bomb range people felt it was inhumane
01:33 < kanzure> hrm. nevermind.
01:33 < fenn> it had 2x4's for legs, so when the mine blows up you just lose a 2x4
01:33 < gene_> rocky territory
01:33 < gene_> cheapness
01:33 < kanzure> fenn: ah.
01:33 < gene_> legs far away from body
01:33 < kanzure> yeah, so Hod's approach to evolving robo-ecologies would do fine for material sourcing if nobody wants to cooperate with ventures like procto's
01:33 < gene_> if it steps on a landmine the leg gets damaged but not the body
01:34 < gene_> link kanzure
01:34 < kanzure> although, procto, what's the matter with the seament stuff again?
01:34 < kanzure> besides not being able to make everything out of it of course, but a good significant amount of things?
01:34 < gene_> surprizingly this mine stepping robot was intended to be part of a robot ecology too
01:34 < kanzure> same link, gene.
01:34 < kanzure> stupid tab.
01:34 < gene_> where?
01:35 < procto> kanzure: seacrete is not cost efficient. it is extremely expensive energy-wise.
01:35 < procto> kanzure: ferroconcrete is a much more viable alternative
01:35 < procto> kanzure: that kind of stuff is all addressed in the book
01:36 < gene_> wait a minute kanzure are you refering to beam when you mean robot ecologies?
01:36 < kanzure> procto: that's unfortunate. I was reading the description in the link and it looked pretty neat.
01:36 < fenn> procto: it'll take a while to read through this book.. do they suggest PSP's or something else?
01:36 < kanzure> production method?
01:36 < procto> kanzure: just so you know when you read it, any plans suggested are exploratory and meant to convey research and possibilities
01:37 < kanzure> gene_: No.
01:37 < procto> fenn: no
01:37 < kanzure> I specifically said hod lipson
01:37 < gene_> Can't find any papers about hod lipson and robot ecology
01:37 < kanzure> Hod has his robo ecologies + fab@home because he wants to have robots explore environments for specific missions and re-design themselves to be better
01:37 < procto> fenn: in the book they describe a single spar design as preferable, but TSI is moving away from that
01:38 < gene_> I only get Mark Tilden
01:38 < gene_> that makes sense
01:38 < procto> they've been working with a marine engineering firm to provide initial designs
01:38 < procto> and once they have them
01:38 < procto> they will publish them publically for free
01:38 < gene_> a single spar ain't exactly the fastest way to get around
01:38 < procto> gene_: it's not supposed to move around a lot
01:38 < kanzure> procto: how do you get the steel rebars for this ferrocement?
01:38 < kanzure> magic?
01:38 < procto> gene_: just drift slowly
01:39 < procto> kanzure: you build it all in drydocks, just like regular ships
01:39 < kanzure> gene_: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ has lipson.zip
01:39 < gene_> kanzure bioleaching
01:39 < kanzure> gene_: check your logs, I linked to lipson.zip the other day.
01:39 < procto> kanzure: kanzure like I said... that kind of basic research is all in the book...
01:39 < kanzure> procto: I'm reading, and I'm not seeing.
01:39 < procto> well, keep going
01:39 < procto> I have to bounce now
01:39 < procto> later
01:40 < kanzure> gene's answer is better
01:40 < gene_> http://www.seafriends.org.nz/oceano/seawater.htm
01:40 < kanzure> I've been reading about bioleaching methods 'recently'
01:40 < gene_> i am willing to bet that all the components for steel are in seawater
01:41 < kanzure> I'm sure it is, but high volume processing gets difficult and energetically inefficient
01:41 < kanzure> but I guess that's what we were planning for asteroid biomining
01:41 < gene_> and guess what, there happens to be a rather handy protein out there that is used by sea cucumbers to concentrate a component of steel
01:41 < gene_> from minute to very high concentrations
01:41 < fenn> "a component of steel"?
01:42 < gene_> vanadium
01:42 < gene_> vanabin
01:42 < gene_> vanadium binder
01:42 < gene_> vanadium 0.0019 ppm in seawater
01:43 < gene_> nickel 0.0066 ppm
01:44 < gene_> holy shit moly 0.01 ppm!
01:44 < gene_> you know we might want to try bioleaching
01:46 < fenn> i read somewhere uranium leaching from seawater could cost about $1000/kg
01:46 < fenn> practical for uranium, not so much for structural materials
01:46 < gene_> uranium 0.0033 ppm
01:46 < fenn> this was using bags of zeolite i think
01:47 < gene_> moly 0.01 ppm!
01:47 < gene_> moly is a component of steel
01:47 < fenn> um, have you ever seen a steel refinery?
01:48 < gene_> not in person
01:48 < gene_> anyway
01:48 < kanzure> heh
01:48 < fenn> it's too bad magnesium is so flammable
01:48 < kanzure> they are simultaneously impressive and disappointing
01:48 < kanzure> the ones that I've seen have the giant molten pots
01:49 < gene_> magnesium isn't that flammable
01:49 < kanzure> sometimes the giant electrodes and so on
01:49 < fenn> gene_: you've got to be kidding
01:49 < kanzure> but also quite primitive. guess it works.
01:49 < gene_> in big amounts with not that much surface area
01:49 < gene_> I kid you not
01:49 < fenn> gene_: lots of down engineers died in explosions before they got the casting process figured out
01:49 < fenn> s/down/DOW chemical co./
01:50 < gene_> http://www.theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Elements/012/index.html
01:50 < fenn> and if you want to make something useful you probably have to machine the castings = lots of tiny high surface area chips
01:51 < gene_> spray water on it
01:51 < gene_> that would immobilize the powder
01:54 < gene_> I can't find the concentration of iron in seawater though...
01:54 < gene_> perhaps, you could extract it from magnetite in sand in shallow area
01:56 < gene_> Kanzure, there is something I severly want to do
01:56 < kanzure> ?
01:57 < gene_> I just stumbled on to this youtube page
01:57 < gene_> or youtube channel
01:57 < gene_> of this person
01:58 < gene_> who makes howto videos, FAKE howto videos
01:58 < gene_> the sad thing is people actually believe that they aren't fake
01:59 < gene_> I want to hack youtube so that the video gets rated down
01:59 < gene_> pointless though
01:59 < gene_> just annoying
02:00 < gene_> forget it
02:00 < gene_> fenn just out of curiousity?
02:00 < gene_> how do you remove a cnc cut item the whole block of metal
02:04 < gene_> v
02:04 < gene_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanabins
02:04 < gene_> bioleaching
02:06 < kanzure_> http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/69/11/6442 Bioaccumulation of Copper Ions by Escherichia coli Expressing Vanabin Genes from the Vanadium-Rich Ascidian Ascidia sydneiensis samea
02:06 < gene_> the real mystery of vanabin isn't how it works it's why the hell seacucumbers even have it
02:14 < fenn> vanadium has a lot of redox states, or something
02:15 < gene_> you'd think they'd use it for oxygen transport with the amount of it in seacucumbers
02:15 < gene_> but they already have another protein that already does that
02:15 < gene_> another reason could be as a toxin
02:15 < gene_> This concentration is 10,000,000 times higher than that in seawater.
02:16 < gene_> sauce wiki
02:17 < gene_> now then
02:17 < gene_> how do we farm lot's and lot's of sea cucumbers?
02:17 < fenn> you dont have to, that's why they made the recombinant e coli
02:18 < fenn> or you could use some kind of algae for doing open ocean mariculture
02:18 < kanzure> bingo
02:18 < kanzure> I have a super secret algae consultant coming in here in 30 minutes maybe
02:18 < fenn> ask him about vanabin
02:19 < kanzure> will you not be around?
02:19 < gene_> then you risk contaminating the oceans and getting some sort of economic sanctions pressed against your small country
02:19 < kanzure> no
02:19 < gene_> oh kanzure are you going to the thing tomorrow?
02:19 < kanzure> not if you don't do it open ocean
02:19 < kanzure> you just need it open ocean input
02:19 < kanzure> the nextgen thingy conference?
02:19 < kanzure> yes
02:19 < gene_> yeah
02:19 < gene_> cool
02:20 < gene_> think I'll go to
02:20 < kanzure> don't you have class?
02:20 < fenn> contaminating the oceans with genengineered algae?
02:20 < kanzure> fenn: no, do it in a box
02:20 < fenn> thats sort of like saying 'contaminate north america with genengineered corn'
02:20 < kanzure> but I'm not really worried about that sort of thing
02:20 < kanzure> unless we make something brutal .. tissue eating algae for instance :p
02:21 < fenn> bah
02:21 < fenn> it's grey goo scenario all over again
02:21 < kanzure> I highly doubt bioleaching would turn to tissue eating
02:21 < gene_> heh
02:21 < gene_> tissue eating
02:21 < fenn> what if you ate the algae
02:21 < gene_> more like cause red tide
02:21 < fenn> big bowls of algae salad
02:21 < gene_> you die
02:22 < gene_> you die fenn, you die
02:22 < gene_> anyway
02:22 < fenn> no you die gene, you die
02:22 < gene_> I don't eat algae
02:22 < fenn> i said "what if you ate the algae" not "what if i ate the algae"
02:22 < gene_> anyway, even if you are closed culture
02:23 < gene_> there is still the risk of containment breaking
02:23 < gene_> if your sea stead gets struck by a rogue wave or what not
02:23 < kanzure> ..
02:23 < kanzure> we just mentioned this.
02:23 < kanzure> you're going in circles.
02:24 < gene_> huh?
02:24 < kanzure> "it's grey goo all over again"
02:24 < kanzure> "bah"
02:26 < gene_> so add a self destruct mechanism
02:27 < kanzure> no
02:27 < kanzure> well, yes, but no
02:27 < kanzure> a self destruct mechanism is nice, but just thinking spooky thoughts all the time isn't the way to get anything done
02:27 < fenn> the point is that genengineered organisms are typically _less_ competetive in the wild than wild types
02:27 < gene_> good point
02:28 < gene_> forgot about that
02:28 < fenn> self destruct doesnt really work with huge populations
02:28 < gene_> good enough as a self destruct
02:29 < kanzure> selective pressures to avoid self-destruct.
02:29 < gene_> utilize proprietary technology
02:29 < kanzure> ?
02:29 < fenn> heh bacteria will ignore your patents
02:29 < gene_> if anything goes wrong the people who own it will be the ones who get sued
02:30 < fenn> that doesnt fix the problem
02:30 < gene_> this isn't exactly ethical though....
02:30 < fenn> "if anything goes wrong, the engineers who designed the space shuttle will get fired"
02:30 < gene_> well
02:31 < gene_> so is ecoli even the ideal thing for doing this?
02:31 < gene_> osmotic pressure
02:31 < fenn> no
02:31 < gene_> that's the self destruct mechanism
02:31 < fenn> nonsense
02:31 < fenn> it only works going from salt to fresh anyway
02:32 < gene_> concentrate the seawater a bit before it gets to the bacteria
02:32 < fenn> vanadium 0.0019 ppm
02:33 < gene_> yeah
02:33 < gene_> and sea cucumbers do that
02:34 < fenn> that means, to get a pound of vanadium you have to have 1e9 liters of seawater?
02:34 < fenn> well realistically more than that since you wont get 100%
02:35 < fenn> can you picture a 100 meter cube of seawater? i cant
02:35 < fenn> that's a square kilometer 1 meter deep
02:38 < fenn> so approximately 8.5cm square of vanadium 1cm thick
02:44 < fenn> btw gene_ vanadium is more useful as an energy transport mechanism ("liquid batteries") than for steel alloys
02:46 < gene_> are you sure about that?
02:48 < gene_> you're right about that
02:49 < kanzure> I shouldn't watch Fringe .. Dr. Bishop reminds me too much of Steve, and what Anna was telling me about institutions.
02:49 < kanzure> mainly about institutions.
02:49 < gene_> fringe?
02:50 < drazak> fringe is awesome, though
02:50 < gene_> does it involve cloning?
02:50 < kanzure> The show about a researcher who was in a mnetal institute for 17 years; when he's taken out by his son, he has various issues.
02:50 < drazak> sometimes
02:51 < kanzure>  personally I think the stories are pretty bad
02:51 < drazak> doesn't make it less awesome
02:52 < gene_> transhuman themes?
02:52 < kanzure> No, just some parts of transhuman tech .. one episode had an rTMS.
02:52 < kanzure> gene_: it's on fox at the moment if you want to see.
02:53 < gene_> what channel is that?
02:53 < kanzure> 2, KTBC-Austin
02:54 < gene_> memory wiper?
02:56 < gene_> so numbers can make a machine like this work
02:56 < gene_> lol
02:57 < drazak> nfw
02:57 < gene_> portable hole?
02:59 < fenn> ACME spazzmotron
02:59 < fenn> turns anyone wearing it into a spazz
03:00 < gene_> I don't get it
03:01 < gene_> I'm not really a big TV person
03:01 < gene_> wait was that just a mind wiper
03:01 < gene_> those can be built
03:02 < gene_> for realz
03:02 < kanzure> ?
03:02 < kanzure> what the fuck was I thinking
03:02 < kanzure> showing gene_ "Fringe" ?
03:02 < kanzure> what a stupid idea.
03:03 < gene_> huh?
03:03 < gene_> well 
03:03 < gene_> I only watched the last few seconds
03:03 < kanzure> A meat grinder can also serve as a brain deleter.
03:03 < gene_> yeah
03:04 < gene_> a meat grinder leave a lot of evidence
03:04 < gene_> what you could just do is shoot an electron beam at the wipee's retina
03:04 < gene_> causing them to forget
03:05 < gene_> the last 4 seconds of what just happened
03:05 < drazak> well
03:05 < drazak> the one person that was abducted, did try to lobotomize herself
03:05 < drazak> with a butter knife
03:06 < gene_> ok
03:06 < gene_> I think I might have to read the plot summary on wikipedia
03:11 < drazak> what are those circular things that are supposed to show a genome?
03:12 < kanzure> plasmid?
03:12 < kanzure> or the type of diagram, you mean?
03:12 < drazak> the type of diagram
03:12 < kanzure> Where's faceface or nsh?
03:12 < gene_> wait is fringe still on?
03:12 < drazak> no
03:12 < kanzure> either one of them should know
03:12 < gene_> bet it's a plasmid
03:12 < gene_> if it is round
03:12 < kanzure> no,
03:12 < kanzure> there's a name to the diagram
03:13 < kanzure> drazak: try looking up cDNA
03:13 < gene_> locus xxx
03:13 < gene_> gene diagram
03:14 < gene_> http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=gene+diagram+plasmid&btnG=Search+Images
03:14 < drazak> ah ok
03:14 < drazak> kanzure: I saw someone somewhere, and saw that it had genomic stuff, but wasn't sure what it was called
03:14 < kanzure> Woah that was vague.
03:16 < drazak> me? :P
03:16 < drazak> oh, not someone, one
03:17 < kanzure_> http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2008/11/the_pro-actiona.php
03:17 < kanzure_> yay Kevin Kelly
03:18 < gene_> huh
03:18 < gene_> I don't get it
03:20 < gene_> http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/antenna/deadringers/blingbling/136.asp
03:20 < kanzure> proactionary principle v. precautionary principle
03:20 < gene_> pasta
03:20 < gene_> what the fuck is that kanzure and why should I care about it
03:21 < fenn> because we hear about it all the time in talks about "transhuman" subjects
03:21 < fenn> substitute "precautionary principle" for "ethical" and you won't be far off
03:21 < gene_> um fenn
03:21 < kanzure> ho ho ho, many many reasons
03:22 < gene_> apparently cd's use a ball screw for linear actuators
03:22 < kanzure> also, Max More was moved enough to reply to it, and Max is local to us btw
03:22 < kanzure> we have Mr. Proactionary himself local to us heh'
03:22 < fenn> gene_: no, there is an acme screw with balls for single point bearings sometimes
03:23 < gene_> http://picasaweb.google.com/hanahawaii/JonkimCom#5053960922206736258
03:23 < gene_> cd drives have ball screws sometimes
03:23 < fenn> "our collective impulse to adapt technology as we use it" == technology
03:24 < fenn> poxy web 2.0 picture albums.. rrgh
03:24 < gene_> indeed
03:24 < gene_> they suck
03:25 < fenn> so can you link to a .jpg instead?
03:27 < gene_> no
03:27 < gene_> I'm sorry dave but I cannot do that
03:27 < fenn> i will continue to disbelieve you then
03:28 < fenn> you are but a figment of my imagination
03:28 < fenn> *poof*
03:28 < gene_> I am not a figment of your imagination, you and I are figments of Haruhi's imagination
03:29 < fenn> hmm i am considering watching that instead of working on my brakes in the cold
03:29 < fenn> this winter stuff sucks
03:29 < gene_> video glasses and a coat heater
03:29 < fenn> its dark when i wake up and dark when i go to bed and no light in between
03:29 < kanzure> fenn: move to Austin, there's no winter here .. ever. :(
03:30 < gene_> there is winter kanzure
03:30 < gene_> just not that cold
03:30 < fenn> is it actually 72 and sunny?
03:30 < gene_> yeah
03:30 < fenn> well that's good enough
03:30 < gene_> look on the brightside
03:31 < gene_> a colder environ is ideal for running computers really fast
03:31 < gene_> plus you get to experience all 3 phases of water(naturally)
03:31 < fenn> oo
03:32 < gene_> we only get 2
03:32 < fenn> contrary to popular belief, it doesn't actually snow here
03:32 < gene_> sometimes we get teh third
03:36 < gene_> http://www.physorg.com/
03:36 < gene_> crap
03:36 < gene_> http://www.physorg.com/news146230733.html
03:41 < kanzure> http://deepspaceinternet.com/ "Interplanetary Internet"
03:41 < kanzure> hit counter: 14
03:41 < kanzure> heh
03:42 < gene_> we need more nodes
03:42 < gene_> with lasers
03:43 < kanzure> Have I ever sent you Tony's MASER story?
03:43 < gene_> no
03:43 < gene_> no you haven't
03:44 < fenn> more like e-mail than IP
03:44 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/storyverse.html
03:44 < kanzure> Tony writes scifi when he isn't busy being an old fart writing code for Blackwell Synergy
03:45 < fenn> rofl "Anakin, Danlo and Muad'Dib"
03:45 < fenn> i'm sure they would get along just fine
03:45 < kanzure> clonal reincarnation :)
03:45 < kanzure> refresh for better formatting
03:47 < gene_> you know you could potential use broken CD players to make a micromanipulator to do cloning
03:47 < gene_> I'm serious
03:47 < kanzure> The big issue in cloning is not the micromanipulator, but rather the WOMB.
03:47 < kanzure> Go find me a woman.
03:48 < gene_> they are rather cheap in thailand
03:48 < fenn> maybe he means cloning hydras
03:48 < gene_> I believe
03:48 < gene_> no
03:48 < gene_> fenn
03:48 < gene_> humans
03:48 < gene_> dogs
03:48 < gene_> sure hydras too
03:49 < fenn> kanzure: are you sure this isnt some kind of markov bot output?
03:49 < kanzure> I have a group of five to ten people who would readily jump on board any seafaring project.
03:49 < kanzure> we used to hang out in #calxia
03:49 < kanzure> one in particular, Blake, wanted to keep some human test subjects
03:49 < gene_> I swear I'm human
03:50 < gene_> just trust me on this one
03:50 < kanzure> fenn: you mean storyverse.html?
03:50 < gene_> I type fast fenn
03:50 < kanzure> if your wpm is less than 150, you're not fast.
03:51 < gene_> I respond fast
03:51 < gene_> I don't know my wpm
03:51 < fenn> meant storyverse
03:51 < gene_> oh
03:51 < gene_> btw
03:51 < kanzure> fenn: I stick around Tony for good reasons.
03:52 < gene_> funding?
03:53 < gene_> hey if I cloned myself
03:53 < gene_> would they arrest me?
03:53 < kanzure> Not saying.
03:53 < kanzure> Why would you tell them?
03:53 < gene_> for the lulz
03:54 < fenn> see raelians controversy for an example
03:55 < gene_> yeah I know
03:56 < gene_> but man if I really cloned myself
03:57 < gene_> it might make lot's a people very angry
03:57 < gene_> thus resulting in lulz
03:59 < gene_> man raelia- whatever the fuck it is, is very messed up
03:59 < fenn> i thought it wasnt bad as far as religions go
04:00 < gene_> well at least they try to do research
04:00 < gene_> though they aren't particulary productive when it comes to that
04:00 < fenn> i'm dubious about their "research" - it seems more like a publicity stunt than anything
04:01 < gene_> yeah
04:01 < gene_> good point
04:01  * fenn mumbles something about "outquisition"
04:02 < kanzure> story time?
04:02 < gene_> maybe if you set up the memes right you could get people to do something productive
04:03 < kanzure> ..
04:03 < fenn> somebody set us up the meme
04:03 < kanzure> you can't be serious?
04:03 < gene_> step 1 in creating a meme
04:03 < fenn> all ur labs r belong to us
04:03 < gene_> expose lots of people to it
04:04 < gene_> step 2 to creating a meme expose lots of people to it
04:04 < fenn> 3. profit!
04:04 < gene_> no step 3 is ???
04:04 < gene_> 4 is profit
04:04 < gene_> but really
04:04 < fenn> you're doing it wrong
04:05 < gene_> if you spam a message board enough times with the same thing
04:05 < fenn> you will get banned
04:05 < kanzure> but you don't know how to program
04:05 < gene_> eventually others will start saying the meme too
04:05 < gene_> yes I might get banned
04:06 < gene_> aren't there ways to get around that?
04:06 < kanzure> you're spamming manually?
04:06 < kanzure> there are so many things wrong with this
04:06 < gene_> it works
04:06 < gene_> people do it
04:06 < gene_> not me
04:06 < kanzure> first, there's no neurophysiological basis to ideas that you can link directly back to meme theory, so you can't engineer that quite yet
04:06 < kanzure> secondly, manual spamming is not effective
04:06 < gene_> heh
04:06 < gene_> try it
04:06 < gene_> try it on 4chan
04:07 < gene_> do it a lot
04:07 < gene_> and I mean a lot on /b/
04:07 < fenn> /b/ is only receptive to certain kinds of memes
04:07 < kanzure> manual spamming is not effective
04:07 < kanzure> this is why you write bots ..
04:07 < gene_> WARNING: DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE LOOK DIRECTLY AT /b/
04:08 < gene_> it's what people do fenn
04:08 < kanzure> ..
04:08 < fenn> meme != catchy internet slogan
04:08 < gene_> http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Forced_Meme
04:08 < gene_> or at least people try to and fail
04:09 < gene_> it's a useless thing to do though
04:10 < gene_> hmmm... neurological basis of memes
04:10 < kanzure> Do you understand why you are wrong?
04:10 < gene_> yes
04:10 < gene_> ever herd of deep structures kanzure?
04:12 < gene_> the fact that we perceive certain sounds as sharp or soft?
04:12 < kanzure>  In various contexts. Which one?
04:12 < gene_> certain colors as cold or hot?
04:12 < gene_> both
04:13 < gene_> I think I might be getting confused with something here
04:13 < gene_> ok so there was this one experiment
04:13 < gene_> you have two shapes
04:13 < gene_> shape a is round
04:14 < fenn> Furthermore, desu is what this capitalist globalist web2.0 world gets for raising yet another generation of retards and dizzying them with blinking lights and empty phrases until they are so phased out they cannot even realize their own discord let alone produce a coherent sentence DESU~.
04:14 < kanzure> qualia studies?
04:14 < kanzure> :(
04:14 < gene_> shape b is sharp with triangles
04:15 < kanzure> oh, wait
04:15 < kanzure> "Certain shapes as certain sounds", yes
04:15 < kanzure> triangle => sharp pointy sounds
04:15 < gene_> people of all languages tended to call shape A buboes
04:15 < gene_> and shape B something like sketsies
04:15 < kanzure> fenn: What are you reading?
04:15 < gene_> DATABASE ERROR
04:16 < gene_> fenn is reading something that should not be read
04:16 < gene_> DESU DESU DESU DESU DESU
04:21 < gene_> man, knowing how memes work in the brain could make for some really dangerous advertisments
04:21 < kanzure> .. more silly for-profit stuff..
04:22 < kanzure> I'm also not interested in advertizing for non-profit stuff, 
04:22 < kanzure> since rarely does this make sure that the audience actually knows what they are doing.
04:22 < gene_> Kanzure read Snow Crash
04:22 < gene_> read Snow Crash now
04:23 < gene_> I don't want to spoil anything for you but it's about memes
04:25 < kanzure> I know. I avoid the book.
04:25 < gene_> why?
04:25 < gene_> why kanzure?
04:26 < gene_> is it too viral?
04:26 < kanzure> No.
04:26 < kanzure> What does that even mean?
04:26 < fenn> it means you froth at the mouth and tell people to read it
04:27 < gene_> read snow crash
04:27 < gene_> and you will find out
04:28 < gene_> anyway how do we deal with anti-transhumanists without causing a war
04:28 < kanzure> What are you talking about?
04:28 < gene_> everything
04:28 < kanzure> Are the antitranshumanists stopping you from constructing some sort of device?
04:29 < gene_> no
04:29 < kanzure> Are these so-called antitranshumanists physically stopping you at your door?
04:29 < kanzure> Are they killing you?
04:29 < kanzure> Are they bruising you?
04:29 < gene_> it's just they could become a threat in time
04:29 < gene_> good point
04:29 < kanzure> Are they in any way, shape or form all that "anti" other than making a lot of bullshit on blogs and so on?
04:29 < kanzure> uh? 
04:30 < kanzure> some of the concepts of posthuman/transhuman would suggest that their 'threat' would be like that of an ant in comparison to a, uh, well I guess a superant
04:30 < gene_> ok
04:30 < gene_> hmm....
04:30 < gene_> I guess so
04:30 < kanzure> Wikipedia has a terrible transhumanism article.
04:30 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/transhumanism_def.html
04:31 < kanzure> This is why I would rather point people towards the philosophy of extropy.
04:31 < gene_> I guess so
04:31 < fenn> i'd say bush outlawing stem cell research is a good example of "anti-transhuman" affecting real things
04:31 < kanzure> Although 'transhuman' is a good set of concepts too, not quite 'transhumanism'
04:31 < kanzure> fenn: Korea. okay, besides their research maybe being fake of course.
04:31 < fenn> what about korea?
04:31 < gene_> that's also the reason for the biohacking toolkit right?
04:32 < kanzure> something about them doing stem cell research
04:32 < fenn> or is this some obscure reference to raelians?
04:32 < kanzure> my point is that your laws are not encoded into the fabric of the galaxies.
04:32 < gene_> fuck the raelians
04:32 < gene_> not literally
04:32 < kanzure> no.
04:32 < fenn> gene_: i thought that was the whole point :)
04:32 < kanzure> gene_: Sort of, yes. There are many reasons for the toolkit stuff though.
04:32 < gene_> ok
04:32 < kanzure> I wasn't trying to be disruptive with it, I just like packaging useful stuff together.
04:33 < gene_> so kanzure, I've been reading about droplet microfluidics
04:33 < gene_> and I think it might be possible to make a DNA synth with it
04:34 < gene_> droplet microfluidics is where instead of using tiny channels to move chemicals around
04:34 < kanzure> HOw is this different from oligonucleotide synthesis?
04:34 < gene_> you use electrostatic forces to drive droplets around
04:34 < gene_> it isn't
04:35 < gene_> it's doing oligo synth fast
04:36 < kanzure> The idea of the biotech-toolkit-reactor projects was to grow the chemicals in some bacteria in a local culture because all of the chemicals are so specialized and ridiculously expensive.
04:36 < gene_> yeah
04:37 < kanzure> The writozyme/retarded polymerase was because it'd be easy to grow, but if microfluidics is easier than letting stuff sit and meiosisitize, let's hear it.
04:37 < gene_> so in order to do that you have to download and "compile" some code
04:37 < ybit> http://videocast.nih.gov/
04:37 < gene_> do we have a retarded polymerase?
04:37 < gene_> no
04:38 < kanzure> to do what?
04:38 < kanzure> ybit: What do they have?
04:38 < kanzure> we have it 50% ;-)
04:39 < kanzure> but seriously, it's a question of added complexity really
04:39 < kanzure> micromachining for fluidics, versus the chemistry that has to go into making shrinkydinks, etc.
04:39 < gene_> polystyrene can be bought a local store
04:39 < kanzure> what structure do you have for the droplet microfluidics device ? I mean, machining requirements.
04:39 < ybit> their podcast section: http://videocast.nih.gov/PastEvents.asp?p=1 -- just something to listent to when you are driving, running, or lazy
04:40 < ybit> or watch*
04:40 < kanzure> gene_: that's not a long term strategy ..
04:40 < kanzure> neat.
04:41 < gene_> rome wasn't built in a day
04:41 < kanzure> but gentoo is.
04:43 < gene_> oh and shrinky dinks probably won't work for oligo synth
04:43 < gene_> PS isn't chemical resistant enough
04:45 < gene_> http://www.princeton.edu/~wagner/pictures.htm
04:45 < gene_> can't find size 
04:45 < kanzure> gene_: but if you want to use that reasoning (just pay for it), check out the online DNA synthesis services like http://e-oligos.com/ and http://mrgene.com/ which we will probably be integrating into synbioss/hy3s/the-SBML-circuit-stuff Real Soon.
04:46 < gene_> I want my own damn gene synthesizer
04:47 < kanzure> yeah but what good is it if it's just a one-shot deal?
04:47 < kanzure> anyway, what was wrong with POGAM?
04:47 < gene_> anyway channel microfluidics are a lot harder to construct than droplet microfluidics
04:47 < gene_> POSAM
04:47 < gene_> 8 nucleotides
04:48 < gene_> very expensive
04:48 < kanzure> POSAM.
04:48 < kanzure> http://bioinformatics.org/pogo/
04:48 < gene_> channel microfluidics have to have tiny valves
04:49 < fenn> gene thanks for damaging my brain with that 4chan shit
04:49 < gene_> you didn't have to look at it
04:49 < gene_> when I go to 4chan
04:49 < gene_> I defocus my eyes
04:49 < gene_> I never look directly at the page
04:50 < kanzure> fenn, I thought you were a 4chan native?
04:50 < fenn> nup
04:50 < fenn> its only been around a couple years
04:50 < kanzure> so you've heard me talking about 4chan from time to time and never bothered to wonder?
04:50 < kanzure> what about 4chan's ridiculous popularity?
04:50 < fenn> no, i've researched it
04:50 < gene_> I can't conceive of a cheap way to make a channel microfluidics with microvalves
04:50 < kanzure> "researched".
04:50 < kanzure> huh.
04:50 < kanzure> well this is news to me.
04:51 < fenn> i also know of its cancerous viral potential and maintained adequate distance
04:51 < kanzure> The actual viral potential is not as advertized.
04:51 < kanzure> It's hard to explain, but it's more because of the people behind it more than it is the 4chan effect.
04:51 < kanzure> I shouldn't try.
04:52  * kanzure goes away.
04:52 < fenn> slashdot is almost as bad
04:52 < gene_> kanzure would you like to see a recent meme to escape 4chan
04:52 < gene_> it's quite funny
04:52 < gene_> and math related
04:52 < kanzure>  no, because you have a warped perception of what a 'meme' really is.
04:53 < gene_> what isn't a meme kanzure?
04:53 < wrldpc___> Is this getting annoying?
04:53 < wrldpc___> why?
04:53 < kanzure> wrldpc___: Is what getting annoying?
04:54 < wrldpc___> is my constant connecting/disconnecting becoming annoying?
04:54 < gene_> function discussionaboutmemes() end;
04:54 < gene_> no
04:55 < gene_> http://i35.tinypic.com/2l8fbwl.jpg
04:58 < gene_> anyway if a gene synthesizer can be built from household materials does it matter if it can replicate?
04:58 < gene_> (at an early stage)
05:05 < gene_> Hey I just realized something
05:05 < gene_> people will pay a lot for a cloned dog
05:06 < kanzure> there's a company doing that btw
05:06 < kanzure> uhm, or almost doing that
05:07 < kanzure> In 1999 there were private groups cloning dogs for private investors. But then more recently I heard about something that was either a startup or already doing it. By recently I mean I heard of it last year.
05:09 < gene_> they did
05:10 < kanzure> I think I have some links in my bookmarks
05:10 < gene_> controversy resulted
05:10 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/bookmarks/bookmarks-old2/
05:10 < kanzure> for clonetech companies.
05:10 < gene_> allegedly the person had the dog cloned was a criminal
05:10 < kanzure> I wonder why they bothered telling people about it.
05:10 < gene_> news
05:10 < gene_> http://www.suicidebots.com/2008/11/17/more-hexapod-adorableness/
05:10 < gene_> contemplate this
05:11 < gene_> lot's of degrees of freedom
05:11 < gene_> the only parts that have to be fabricated are 2d
05:11 < gene_> semi-replication perharps?
05:13 < gene_> show actlab that video 
05:13 < gene_> get actlab to buy hexapod
05:13 < kanzure> Ah, yeah, I'm registered on Trossen Robotics.
05:13 < gene_> I am too
05:13 < kanzure> They have no funding.
05:13 < gene_> that's not  the hexapod I am refering to
05:14 < gene_> the ones in the video
05:14 < kanzure> but I've been considering donating a fablab to actlab
05:14 < kanzure> it's kind of a big financial decision though.
05:14 < gene_> well I am wondering if a hexapod robot could have tools placed on it and use those tools to assemble more hexbots
05:18 < gene_> then again this might be a sleep depravation induced mad idea
07:33 < kanzure> Hrm.
07:33 < kanzure> Amtomat?
07:33 < kanzure> Looks like I've got my anime back. Yay television.
07:36 < bkero> wootoff
07:36 < bkero> Most anime is terrible ;P
07:37 < fenn> 90% of everything is crud
07:38 < fenn> then again, anime is the only real outlet for scifi anymore, so maybe it just derives its 90% crudness from scifi
07:38 < kanzure> Aww. it's over.
07:39 < bkero> Most scifi is terrible too, heh.
07:39 < kanzure> Angelica, Claes, Henrietta, Jobe, Marco, Triela, by Funimation (well, that we could have guessed)
07:39 < kanzure> what am I watching?
07:39 < kanzure> Gunsl* girl?
07:39 < bkero> Oh god gunslinger
07:40 < bkero> Isn't that the woman who reloads with her cleavage?
07:40 < kanzure> Only last few moments of it.
07:40 < bkero> That's enough for me to not want to wach it.
07:40 < kanzure> Scuse me? :?)
07:41 < kanzure> Like, cleavage reload feature?
07:41 < bkero> It happens repeatedly
07:41 < bkero> I've seen the last episode
07:41 < bkero> cleavage reloading dual wtf
07:41 < bkero> *duel
07:43 < kanzure> I miss my pre-scheduled-for-me anime.
07:44 < kanzure> Having to hunt it down over the internet is somehow slightly less exciting for discovery processes.
07:44 < fenn> its the lack of instant gratitfication
07:44 < bkero> I could give you some recommendations to avoid the abundance of shit.
07:44 < fenn> if you could stream the first episode, tv would lose any advantage whatsoever
07:44 < kanzure> I tend to just hang around crunchyroll if I want to watch something quick
07:45 < kanzure> crunchyroll does anime streaming (sometimes)
07:45 < bkero> fenn: http://www.hulu.com tv lost all advantage
07:45 < kanzure> hard to sort out what has videos and what doesn't
07:45 < fenn> *gasp* how is this possible!
07:45 < fenn> they even know what my favorites are
07:46 < fenn> like "My Testicles"
07:46 < fenn> and "Sperm Dumpster"
07:46 < kanzure_> http://www.hulu.com/popular/episodes/all_time?channel=Animation+and+Cartoons&subchannel=Anime
07:46 < kanzure_> Heh, Death Note.
07:46 < bkero> It's all dub
07:46 < bkero> :/
07:46 < kanzure_> some bleach, Ikki Tousen, Mushi-shi, xxxHolic, not bad ..
07:47 < bkero> I'd consider those crap besides death note :/
07:47  * bkero is into very weird anime
07:47 < fenn> speed racer?
07:47 < fenn> wtf
07:48 < fenn> i get the impression they are using a very small sample size
07:49 < fenn> like, four people
07:50 < bkero> ?
07:50 < fenn> so, fixing my car was really quite pleasant, since i managed to let it warm up in the basement. unfortunately i was totally unable to actually fix anything
07:54 < fenn> i wonder if i could machine this piston on my lathe, since i cant seem to find one for sale on the net
07:54 < bkero> What are you trying to do to a piston?
07:54 < fenn> rear brake caliper is stuck
07:55 < bkero> compress it and bleed it loose
07:55 < fenn> it doesnt want to go back in
07:55 < bkero> Ah
07:55 < bkero> Are you pushing the piston in dry?
07:55 < fenn> no
07:56 < fenn> i never took it out fwiw
07:56 < fenn> from the manual, it looks like i should be able to rotate it with a pair of pliers, but that wasn't happening
08:06 < fenn> i bet i could use an impact wrench somehow, but not tonight
08:07 < kanzure> I went out to eat with some old high school buddies who happen to be living in the dorm,
08:07 < kanzure> and for some reason they now want to replace football teach coaches with an ai
08:07 < kanzure> not an ai I guess, I should call it a strategy selection program
08:08  * bkero has better things to do with his time.
08:08 < bkero> Like these sharks with lasers.
08:08 < kanzure> I guess I'm happy that they are even thinking in that style
08:08 < kanzure> Well, in all honesty it's not like it's particularly hard. Just go steal one of the game engines for football games, and load it up with historical data.
08:08 < fenn> somehow i cant picture a bunch of jocks taking orders from a computer
08:09 < kanzure> well that part I don't care about
08:09 < kanzure> they claim people would pay for the program
08:10 < kanzure> and if that's true, then I say let them show me that it is true
08:10 < fenn> i claim you want to buy it. you want to buy it.
08:10 < kanzure> I'm not particularly the best salesman, I can't get into headspace too significantly distant from my own
08:10 < kanzure> jedi mind trick?
08:10 < kanzure> hrm
08:10  * kanzure has to work on that one
08:10 < fenn> it doesn't work without the hand wave
08:11 < kanzure> it only works on the 'weak minded'
08:12 < kanzure> and since I go off on my all computational equivalenticisms of the human brain I guess I can see how that backfires :-p
08:13 < fenn> nah the "weak minded" stuff is just a plot device
08:13 < fenn> otherwise they'd just handwave the villain away
08:14 < bkero> Sounds to me like someone said 'i hate my coach.  hey computers are smart lets use one of those instead'
08:17 < kanzure> No, it was actually an argument that they started about the mental v. physical aspects of football, so Bill (I've mentioned him before) was going on about how you could replace the coach since the coach's job is hardly physically demanding and still be an awesome game in the end.
08:18 < fenn> problem with football is there's too many rules
08:24 < kanzure> new email from some new guy on openmanufacturing about there being no optimal universal XML format for design representation
08:24 < kanzure> I schooled him about what TAR/ZIP is all about heh'
08:24 < kanzure_> http://www.rasaero.com/ Rogers Aeroscience RASAero Aerodynamic Analysis and Flight
08:24 < kanzure_> Simulation Software
08:25 < kanzure_> how is this not covered by ITAR
08:25 < kanzure_> wtf
08:27  * kanzure rips it to http://heybryan.org/books/Aerospace/
08:28 < fenn> probably too old for itar
08:29 < kanzure> meh, only 50 MB.
08:36 < kanzure> now that I look it seems like classical mechanics
08:36  * kanzure just got done reading the Paul email
08:38 < kanzure> I still don't understand why he is so fascinated with OWL
08:38 < kanzure> I mean, stuff like seekda is cool, but it doesn't seem to require OWL or WSDL or anything
08:38 < kanzure> it's just servers communicating with each other, and memory is still just giant page files
08:38 < kanzure> Am I missing something?
08:41 < kanzure> fenn: http://voiced.device.mst.edu/group/voiced/blog/ look at top post? wtf?
08:43 < kanzure_>  http://voiced.device.mst.edu/groups/voiced/wiki/bf9be/Job_Posting.html
09:27 < kanzure> So it turns out I've been subscribed to vtkusers for a long time.
09:27 < kanzure> One of the latest emails has been about 2D constructive geometries, to which somebody replied that you want 'GNU GTS'.
09:46 < fenn> psychology or sociology eh
09:47 < fenn> i guess they dont care about actually making something that works
09:47 < fenn> blog -> 404
09:50 < kanzure> maybe I linked to it wrong
09:50 < fenn> how many job postings on nov 17 by matt campbell could there be
09:51 < kanzure> I need to act like I'm sleeping, g'night
09:51 < fenn> i tried that, it didnt work
09:51 < fenn> (the sleeping thing)
10:24 < willPow3r> http://home.swipnet.se/~w-17445/TXT/starthak.txt
11:37 < UtopiahGHML> http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/movie/style/internet-short/ubuntuim-going-to-learn-ubuntu/
12:28 < drazak> plasmid diagram
13:00 < kanzure> Does anybody know where I should forward transhuman-tech job postings to?
13:01 < kanzure> I just got one about some company looking for postdocs in electrophysiology for an MEA business (already established, I know I make this sound like a startup)
17:26 < kanzure> Who turns on the heat in Texas? The dorm is on a full-building heating/cooling system, so for some reason they think that it hitting 60 degrees at night is reason to turn on the heat. 
17:26 < kanzure> Takes about two days for the whole system to "switch".
17:28 < kanzure_> http://mail.google.com/mail/help/join_the_team.html "We take on hard computer science problems -- like making large amounts of Javascript run insanely fast on different browsers"
17:29 < kanzure_> "hard computer science problems" "like javascript"
17:29 < kanzure_> The solution to javascript is full and total oblitteration.
17:31 < kanzure_> Although since chrome maybe I shouldn't be laughing at them. 
17:58 < UtopiahGHML> know how Clerodane diterpenoids are synthetized? the biosynthetic pathways?
17:59 < kanzure> check KEBB pathway db or reactome.org
17:59 < UtopiahGHML> k thx
18:02 < UtopiahGHML> you mean KEGG or KEBB?
18:06 < kanzure> hrm.
18:06 < kanzure> I forget.
18:07 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Biology_databases
18:07 < kanzure> Uh, that's a bad link
18:07 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/List_of_bioinformatics_databases might be good
18:08 < UtopiahGHML> was KEGG but thanks a lot, Ive found a paper before but those might be useful yet
18:09 < UtopiahGHML> Im still dont know anything about biology and chemistry and stuff but Im learning :)
18:10 < kanzure> You should read biotech books, not plain bio. I mean, it's never "plain", but the epistemology of biotech is infinitely helpful in sorting things out.
18:11 < UtopiahGHML> yes and I guess even bioinformatic directly would use some vocabulary and concept that could relate too more easilly
18:12 < kanzure> well, maybe, but if you want to do bioinformatics seriously, you should go read the API docs :) to stuff like bioperl and biopython
18:13  * kanzure can tend to learn better reading code than reading books. 
18:13 < UtopiahGHML> I should simply have a real bio project , that would make me learn way more efficiently thus faster.
18:15 < kanzure> Talk with drazak about his PCR setup project, or maradydd in #diybio about her glow in the dark yogurt project.
18:17 < UtopiahGHML> I guess Id be more interested in biotech regarding silico/bio interractions projects
18:19 < kanzure> UtopiahGHML: Then I have a good project for you 
18:19 < kanzure> Or at least the components that you might be interested in
18:20 < kanzure> uhm, did you ever see the "How to make an electrode" docs on the server?
18:20 < UtopiahGHML> nop I didn't browse the server a lot
18:20 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/neuro/ it's in one of the files that is either HTML or a 4 page PDF not formatted like a typical science paper
18:20 < kanzure> and it shows how to wire the electrode and such and if I recall correctly maybe even a simple PCB
18:20 < kanzure> anywho, the idea would be then to go on a frog hunt
18:23 < UtopiahGHML> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/neuro/Electrode%20Assembly.pdf I guess
18:24 < UtopiahGHML> but I have a younger sister, it could provide more interesting data than a frog
18:25 < kanzure> How old are you?
18:26 < UtopiahGHML> 26
18:26 < kanzure> You have an accessible younger sister? 
18:27 < UtopiahGHML> what do you mean "accessible"?
18:27 < UtopiahGHML> if I can sell her?
18:27 < kanzure> well I mean usually if you don't live with a younger sister you don't say "I have a sister to experiment on"
18:28 < kanzure> and being 26 and living with a younger sister (not moving out?) is not typical, that's all.
18:28 < UtopiahGHML> we dont live together but I can still put electrodes in her skull
18:29 < UtopiahGHML> for the sake of Science
18:29 < UtopiahGHML> and fun
18:30 < kanzure> yeah, I was surprised to learn that people drill holes into their skulls for fun
18:30 < kanzure> especially since it would seem obvious to me to leave something behind if you wanted to make it interesting in the mean time
18:31 < kanzure> if you make a fine-tip electrode and drill into the brain of a human, supposedly via surface stimulation of the cortices you can really 'hack up' conscious experience in different ways
18:32 < UtopiahGHML> you have a younger sister or brother too?
18:33 < kanzure> both.
18:34 < UtopiahGHML> nice
18:34 < UtopiahGHML> plenty of experiments possible
18:41 < kanzure_> http://www.sys-bio.org/software/jdesigner.htm draw biochemical networks and export to sbml .. wonder if there's a database, or if it's just your knowledge of biochem units.
18:41 < kanzure_> oh that's right
18:41 < kanzure_> SBML has a model repository
18:41 < kanzure_> http://www.sys-bio.org/ModelDB/ <- this isn't the SBML model repository, but just another one from that link
18:42 < kanzure_> http://sbml.org/Voting_for_a_new_SBML_Editor_in_2009
18:42 < kanzure_> hrm, BioUML?
18:45 < kanzure_> ACS.org has updated their site evidently and is all the flutter about it. Meh.
19:33 < gene> http://www.physorg.com/news146319784.html
19:34 < gene_> http://www.physorg.com/news146319784.html
19:38 < gene_> does this affect us
19:47 < gene_> WTF
19:48 < gene_> this is odd
19:48 < gene_> I can't downlad inkscape?
19:51 < gene_> odd
19:51 < gene_> I can't download anything
19:52 < UtopiahGHML> then how can you have msg from this IRC channel?
19:54 < gene_> hell if I know
19:55 < UtopiahGHML> if you dont know what's happening just reboot your router
19:55 < gene_> computers are powered by magic smoke for all I care
19:55 < gene_> I can't
19:55 < gene_> I don't own the router
19:56 < gene_> strange
19:56 < gene_> I can dowload youtube videos
19:57 < gene_> but not heybryan.org
19:58 < gene_> o shit
19:58 < gene_> that wasn't a flash file
19:58 < gene_> that was a song named flash
20:20 < gene_> I can't download shit
20:32 < fenn> $20 for UtopiahGHML's sister
20:32 < fenn> does she come with accessories?
20:33 < UtopiahGHML> nop it's the naked product
20:33 < fenn> hmm well i guess that's ok
20:33 < UtopiahGHML> with the certificates and stuff
20:43 < UtopiahGHML> anybody tried it? http://www.splunk.com/ "Search and navigate IT data from applications, servers and network devices in real-time. Logs, configurations, messages, traps and alerts, scripts, code, metrics and more. If a machine can generate it - Splunk can eat it."
20:44 < fenn> what, tail -f and grep?
20:45 < UtopiahGHML> what you use commands instead of directly looking at data or using assembly?..
20:46 < fenn> I won't look at splunk on principle, because sourceforge puts ads for it at the bottom of my email messages
20:51 < kanzure_-> gene: Connectionism & control theory isn't really anything new.
20:56 < kanzure_-> http://psas.pdx.edu/ Portland State Aerospace Soc. hrm, nchaimov might like to hear about this.
21:06 < kanzure_-> Gah.
21:06 < kanzure_-> Suddenly I'm receiving emails that are cc'd to @pentagon.af.mil addresses.
21:16 < kanzure_-> "silcene" = silicon version of graphene nanoribbons, this time with inert edges. If the synthesis process is similar as with graphene, then that would be interesting. Looks like they were doing it on silver surfaces. 
21:17 < xp_prg> kanzure_- whatup with the script man?
21:18 < kanzure_-> *silicene
21:19 < xp_prg> kanzure_- ?
21:19 < kanzure_-> I've temporarily misplaced my link to a database that I was going to use with it. It wasn't the SBML model repository, and it wasn't BioModel (I don't think), but there's one that already stores kinematic equations and different biological elements beyond just biobricks. Particularly circuit information.
21:19 < xp_prg> cool
21:22 < procto> Splunk is quite nice
21:23 < procto> UtopiahGHML: I've used it, and it's quite decent. I f I was a sysadmin for multiple system, I would almost certainly use it.
21:24 < UtopiahGHML> procto: ok, thanks for the feedback
21:34 < fenn> just got "structure in nature is a strategy for design" it has some neat geometry in it
21:34 < fenn> "maximum diversity from a minimum set of components" is the general idea
21:40 < kanzure> is this a book?
21:40 < fenn> ya
21:40 < kanzure> but yes, I think we've gone over those principles in here before
21:40 < kanzure> "if you were to take any N items with you on a journey, what would you bring?"
21:41 < fenn> p. 120 "Self-Replication of the Universal Network"
21:41 < fenn> unfortunately its not as cool as it sounds
21:42 < fenn> i'm totally gonna scan + ocr this
21:43 < fenn> there sure is a lot of computer graphics for a 1978 book
21:46 < fenn> or maybe they're just really well built models
21:49 < kanzure_> http://www.astroday.net/MKrovers.html Lunar rover testing in Hawaii for water production from rocks. Image gallery and acronym heavy text.
22:03 < kanzure_> http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1035149&cid=25822015 suggestion to integrate the new screenshots.debian.net with the apt system so that users get to see perceived quality of GUI software before they 'buy'
22:23 < kanzure> I still don't understand Paul's fascination with his "semantic web" term that he throws around.
22:23 < kanzure> What, was TCP/IP just invented the other day or something?
22:23 < kanzure> did DNS just spring up over night ?
22:23 < kanzure> I mean, this stuff has been around forever, why doesn't he just call it what it is, he wants to write a message passing standard on top of HTTP?
22:35 < fenn> pointrel is more or less the same concept as opencyc
22:36 < fenn> "semantic web" holy grail is for everything to be machine parseable
22:36 < fenn> whereas TCP/IP can send lots of junk data like youtube videos :)
22:41 < fenn> dear mark fawzi, no need to carry out your aggression at your therapist/gf on us
22:52 < drazak> UtopiahGHML: 2 peltier devices, 2 computer fans, a microchip, some caps, resistors, and a pcr programmer, and woohoo polymerase chain reaction
22:55 < drazak> er, avr programmer
23:23 < fenn> in-mitten keyboard, now that would be cool