--- Day changed Mon Nov 24 2008 00:00 < kanzure> s/stuff/scenarios/ 00:00 < kanzure> the only way to survive a dying ship is just to be a fortress of solitude and pull some people through I guess, so good luck with that :/ 00:01 < kanzure> he's probably in the best possible place to be though for economic slides. a fablab? hell. 00:01 < fenn> yep 00:01 < kanzure> How'd he pull that off anyway ?? 00:01 < fenn> by being the only guy in iceland into open manufacturing? 00:02 < fenn> or something like that 00:02 < fenn> ever read his blog? 00:02 < kanzure> No. I've been slacking on my RSS and RSS-accumulation behaviors. 00:02 < kanzure> acquisition. 00:06 < fenn> i can't agree that "being a fortress of solitude" works in an economic crash 00:06 < fenn> it'd be the other way around 00:07 < kanzure> it's hard to design for a community that has very little resources. 00:07 < fenn> unless you're some kind of survivalist that has already stockpiled canned spam for the next 30 years in your cabin 00:07 < fenn> but survivalists dont count 00:07 < kanzure> I mean, we can always propose "go open! share with yourselves! immediate 'open initiative' for public ideas, designs and documentation to be spewed forth to help each other" 00:08 < kanzure> but they haven't anything to *work with* except people, not materials 00:08 < fenn> i dont believe that 00:08 < fenn> iirc iceland has (had?) a large aluminum smelting industry 00:08 < fenn> and the fish havent run away 00:08 < kanzure> "immediate liquidation of intellectual property assets" hah 00:08 < fenn> pff maybe we can start guptastan in iceland 00:09 < kanzure> hm? 00:09 < kanzure> with him the leader? 00:09 < fenn> patent-free zone 00:09 < fenn> hell i'd move there 00:09 < fenn> its not like anyone's giving me money here in the US either 00:09 < kanzure> "Sir, you're entering a patent-free zone, you'll have to check your pager at the front gates. But you do get this really bitching cool openmoko." 00:09 < fenn> no, you dont get it 00:10 < kanzure> oh? 00:10 < kanzure> zoning laws perhaps? 00:10 < fenn> all patents are null and void, so you can use whatever proprietary tech you want 00:10 < kanzure> that's a neat state of emergency method 00:10 < kanzure> it sounds like one of those things just wild enough to work 00:10 < fenn> not state of emergency, state of emergence :) 00:11 < fenn> dont you remember this? its like your atacama silliness: http://vinay.howtolivewiki.com/blog/global/free-guptastan-583 00:11 < kanzure> atacama?? 00:11 < fenn> the autonomist calxist state 00:12 < fenn> i forget what it was called 00:12 < kanzure> calxia 00:12 < kanzure> but yes. 00:12 < kanzure> I wonder what advantage you can claim for a patent-free zone 00:12 < fenn> oblivierra 00:12 < kanzure> I mean, it's a weird remedy for a bizarre situation 00:13 < kanzure> oblivierra was an MMORPG that the calxists were writing 00:13 < fenn> oh, i thought it was a set of plans for calxia 00:13 < kanzure> nah, it was a $300k~ cash cow 00:13 < fenn> good luck 00:13 < kanzure> don't know what happened to it 00:13 < kanzure> it was 2005 or something, lots of code was written. maybe somebody sold it. 00:13 < fenn> too much competition in the video games market 00:14 < kanzure> but back to more important things, 00:14 < fenn> the way i see it, patents are strangling earth to death 00:14 < kanzure> how would you sell Smari on selling icelanders on patent-free zones? 00:14 < kanzure> maybe. but don't you think they're alreay at the "steal as much as we can" stage? 00:14 < fenn> no 00:14 < kanzure> "government incentives for open progress" might do the trick 00:14 < kanzure> but what incentives do they have?? 00:14 < fenn> they have too much pride to withdraw from the global economic market 00:15 < fenn> anyway i'm not asking for all of iceland to do this 00:15 < fenn> just a single town or whatever 00:15 < fenn> island maybe 00:15 < kanzure> first you'd have to convince them that no one solution is going to be optimal 00:16 < kanzure> and then you're gambling with your constituents 00:16 < kanzure> which they might not like :-/ 00:16 < fenn> i'm what? 00:16 < kanzure> well, if you have one town trying out the whole open progress thing to get them rolling again 00:16 < kanzure> and another one has some economic sanctions or something 00:16 < kanzure> the people living in those different places might become very opinionated about the difference in governmental treatment 00:16 < kanzure> governmental/political treatment 00:17 < fenn> yeah, that's why land sucks 00:17 < kanzure> grass is always greener stuff. 00:17 < kanzure> hrm. 00:23 < kanzure> here's a way to package it, I just sent this in my reply to Gupta - 00:24 < kanzure> "since we're in a state of crisis, we call for blah blah blah full return on investment in public works and government sponsorship, all IP null and void, priority to public, open-inspired projects" 00:24 < kanzure> "full return" as in "open access" 00:24 < kanzure> hrm, who's the big open access sponsors around here? There's one that has a lot of abstract math on his site and is a prof, somewhere. 00:25 < kanzure_> http://chiaction.com/ultrasound_beauty/ultrasonic_foot_massager_sd955.shtml $200 0.5 MHz ultrasound massager. 00:35 < fenn> reply to Gupta? 00:35 < kanzure> smari? 00:35 < kanzure> it was an email he sent to om that got me talking about iceland 00:36 < fenn> dammit you scooped me 00:37 < kanzure> huh? 00:37 < fenn> n/m 00:37 < fenn> at least you mentioned Pirate Party 00:37 < fenn> why the hell did they put the fablab on this weird little island anyway 01:05 < gene> hello, Kanzure 01:06 < fenn> gene i want you to start thinking about ways to use algae to bind together fiberglass, like ways to make epoxy or similar substances 01:06 < kanzure> Huh. Utah has a portable PET tomo trailer. 01:06 < kanzure> fenn: we were talking about that at biobarcamp 01:07 < kanzure> A venture capitalist / business woman was really into that idea. Mackenzie might recall some of those discussions. 01:07 < fenn> is there a wiki page or anything? or just flapping lips 01:07 < kanzure> Actually this was more about cultures for secreting binding agents or something 01:07 < kanzure> just flapping lips 01:07 < kanzure> barcamps all have wikis, but nobody uses them. 01:07 < kanzure> I don't even know her name. 01:07 < fenn> yay meatspace! 01:08 < kanzure> conceptual re-spin on "bio mechanical devices". 01:09 < kanzure> Ah, it was during a brainstorming session for io9 competition entries. 01:09 < fenn> i'm just thinking about ways to build infrastructure on Vestmannaeyjar 01:09 < kanzure> Well, what infrastructure do they need? 01:09 < kanzure> Do they not have houses, food, what's going on? 01:10 < fenn> not enough houses or food to sustain massive tourism/influx of immigrants 01:10 < kanzure> immigrants? 01:10 < fenn> guptastan! 01:11 < fenn> the way i see it, logistics will always be a problem, so the more bulk materials you can manufacture on site from on-site materials, the better 01:12 < gene> kanzure did we do a mass properties report? 01:12 < kanzure> I just don't understand what they're trying to go for though 01:12 < fenn> who is "they"? 01:12 < gene> why fenn? 01:12 < kanzure> gene: I already told you, no. 01:12 < kanzure> fenn: the people living there 01:12 < kanzure> the ones that are upset. 01:12 < fenn> fuck those whiners 01:12 < kanzure> the idea is to make them nonupset, yes? 01:12 < fenn> yes 01:12 < gene> when is it due? 01:12 < kanzure> okay. so then you think we get to do some free calls on what to do with the land? 01:12 < kanzure> gene: tomorrow 01:13 < kanzure> as long as it's "positive growth", fenn? 01:13 < fenn> yes, i think it's the opportunity to take a big bite out of the worldwide legal restrictions on anything cool 01:13 < kanzure> I mean, that's a lot of free range there 01:13 < gene> well I might be able to do it 01:13 < gene> why do you want epoxy fenn? 01:13 < fenn> gene: to glue together basalt fiber into interesting shapes 01:13 < gene> why do you want to do that? 01:13 < fenn> like houses or furniture 01:13 < gene> where will you get the basalt fiber? 01:13 < fenn> because there's nothing else to make them from, that's why 01:13 < fenn> from the dirt 01:14 < fenn> and the lava streams 01:14 < kanzure> They have open-air lava streams? 01:14 < fenn> apparently 01:14 < kanzure> Or underground tunneling operations? 01:14 < kanzure> huh 01:14 < gene> you could use sand, beer, and gelatin 01:14 < fenn> but anyway realistically this would be underground geothermal electrical generation 01:14 < fenn> dammit gene, go do some homework 01:14 < gene> I am confused 01:14 < kanzure> not bad :) 01:15 < gene> what do you think I am doing right now fenn? 01:15 < fenn> talking about beer 01:15 < gene> PS use PS 01:15 < fenn> PS? 01:16 < gene> yeah PS 01:17 < fenn> please expand your acronyms 01:17 < kanzure> seriously. 01:18 < fenn> Lena M?rtensson. Department of Zoophysiology - Marine Paint. G?teborg University 01:18 < fenn> studies algal barnacle and mussel glue secretions 01:19 < fenn> hmmmm 01:19 < kanzure> fenn, while we're at it, what's up with the pirate party these days anyway? particularly these days. 01:19 < gene> PS= polystyrene 01:19 < fenn> nfc, i havent heard anything since the elections 01:19 < fenn> since the 2004 elections that is 01:20 < gene> mussel glue scretions sweet 01:20 < fenn> gene: i'm trying to make glue from scratch on an island in the middle of the ocean, there is no polystyrene to be had 01:20 < gene> you could grow armor 01:20 < kanzure> I seem to recall grinding up mussel shells into something useful, something sturdy like a bio-cement or something 01:20 < gene> ask Kanzure about what dow chemical contacted us about 01:21 < kanzure> under which context? 01:21 < gene> algae---->plastic 01:21 < kanzure> was this the synfuel, flue gas, or something else? They wanted a byproduct of our reactor (which doesn't even exist yet) 01:21 < gene> algae---->plastic 01:22 < gene> that's the context 01:22 < kanzure> ah, I didn't know they wanted to make plastic 01:22 < gene> yup 01:22 < fenn> that should be fairly straightforward.. starch granules -> PLA 01:22 < kanzure> who told you anyway? 01:22 < kanzure> Was I zoning out when we were told what they wanted to do do with what? 01:22 < gene> not starch 01:23 < gene> normal plastics 01:23 < gene> lol maybe Kanzure 01:30 < gene> Sata told us 01:31 < kanzure> I remember him telling us about Dow, but not what they wanted to do nor with what particular byproduct of our setup. 01:31 < kanzure> Anyway, there's a Robot Group free dinner feast on December 14th if you want to attend that, it's a bit into South Austin off of Mopac. Just got email notification asking for RSVPs. 01:31 < gene> hmmmm... maybe 01:32 < kanzure> They have miniature CNC machines that they like to demo at the meetings :-) 01:32 < kanzure> well, not full CNC, I guess this is just 2-axis stuff 01:32 < gene> my chances of attending have now increased by 30% 01:33 < gene> well then, do they do metal? 01:33 < gene> and how small is small? 01:33 < kanzure> tabletop small. 01:34 < kanzure> They had a demo going at Maker Faire, the one cutting CDs. 01:34 < gene> oh yeah 01:34 < gene> that's fairly small 01:34 < kanzure> Fireball QT something. It was all over the net earlier this year. $2k pricetag. 01:34 < gene> so, would they be willing to use a ECM toolhead? 01:35 < gene> for making parts from ultrahard materials? 01:37 < kanzure> they are open to most anything as long as you're the one who does the work. 01:38 < gene> well I might attend 01:41 < kanzure> k, forwarded you the email asking for RSVPs. 01:41 < gene> k thnx bai 01:43 < kanzure> fenn, so back to taking a bite out of them. 01:43 < fenn> chomp() 01:44 < fenn> not really sure what i can do to influence icelandic legislation 01:44 < kanzure> if they can pull off a Pirate Party or Jedi Religion stunt, or web-root campaign like Obama, that influence might happen 01:44 < fenn> perhaps i could contact the pirate party 01:45 < kanzure> aren't pirates supposed to be away at sea and unapproachable? :p 01:45 < kanzure> but I'm wondering how to convince the icelanders not to get all angry. 01:45 < kanzure> I mean, there's a million and one cool things to do with a lot of land and potential access to lots of basalt, geothermal energy sources, that sort of thing 01:46 < kanzure> but they're all torn up about their lifestyles being destroyed, likely. 01:46 < kanzure> hrm. to the icelandish blogosphere! 01:46 < fenn> there's only 4000 people living on vestmannaeyjar 01:47 < kanzure> helloo 01:47 < kanzure> so smari is basically the only one that does anything, then? 01:47 < kanzure> I mean, that's the typical industrialized ratio, right? one per bajillion. 01:47 < fenn> heh 01:48 < fenn> there must be some reason they plonked a fablab down on this little island 01:50 < fenn> wtf piratbyran isnt affiliated with pirate party? 01:51 < kanzure> huh, there's govt funding/backing for their fab lab 01:52 < kanzure_> http://smari.yaxic.org/blag/2007/10/16/an-offer-you-cant-refuse/ 01:53 < fenn> is that $500k? 01:55 < kanzure_> yeah, foreigners have problems with commas and turning them into periods 01:55 < fenn> the only person in Iceland who knows anything about the Fab Lab project (namely, me). 01:55 < kanzure_> I heard that a fablab should be $15k 01:55 < fenn> i dont know where that $15k figure comes from; it doesnt seem like enough 01:55 < kanzure_> maybe he's also doing shipping costs 01:55 < kanzure_> hrm. 01:56 < kanzure_> well, I'd link you, but I don't have access to all of my logs at the moment 01:56 < kanzure_> (laptop is still waiting for me to buy a power supply) 01:56 < kanzure_> but there was a page on the fablab site that had a cost table 01:56 < fenn> there must be varying degrees of "fablab"-ness 01:56 < fenn> a waterjet costs about $75k 01:56 < fenn> so obviously that isnt included 01:57 < fenn> but if "epilog laser and roland mill" qualifies as "fab-lab" then no thanks 01:57 < kanzure_> http://fab.cba.mit.edu/about/fab/inv.html 01:57 < kanzure_> " 01:57 < kanzure_> The current hardware specification (~$50k equipment and ~$10k materials):" 01:58 < kanzure_> software: http://fab.cba.mit.edu/about/fab/ 01:58 < kanzure> I wonder why that software isn't listed as being included in fabuntu 01:59 < fenn> wtf is fabuntu 01:59 < fenn> "dude we got this name, its like 'fab' and 'ubuntu'" 02:00 < kanzure> supposedly it's a linux distribution for fablabs 02:00 < kanzure> http://fabuntu.org/ 02:00 < fenn> yes i know that, but what makes it different and special and worth caring about 02:01 < fenn> you dont need a whole distro just to install like 10 scripts 02:01 < kanzure> i guess it's because they bothered to do domain squatting. 02:02 < fenn> ok so lets stop talking about that 02:02 < kanzure> shouldn't we be the ones doing fabuntu though? 02:02 < kanzure> I was thinking of doing a hostile takeover related to om. 02:03 < fenn> i dont have any association to fablab project 02:03 < kanzure> hostile fork, I mean. 02:03 < fenn> hostile fork of what? 02:03 < kanzure> well they have a 90 MB ISO on their server so supposedly it's full of something 02:03 * fenn snorts 02:03 < kanzure> and if it's just ubuntu.iso renamed to fabuntu.iso, nevermind 02:03 < fenn> if you think it's worth bothering with, by all means, go bother with it 02:04 < fenn> those guys on OM sure can write a lot 02:04 < kanzure> I guess I was hoping I'd get some actuators and similar mechanisms to play around with to bootstrap repositories and such, and have a linux distribution for managing printers to print out papakura instructions, and the like 02:04 < kanzure> heh 02:05 < kanzure> which guys? I'm partly responsible for a lot of random writing myself 02:05 < fenn> uh, the people who write to the list... primarily you paul fawzi and maybe cravens 02:06 < fenn> i'm behind like 150 messages 02:06 < fenn> oh well 02:06 < fenn> when did email get so hard to read 02:06 < kanzure> of all things, om needs an announce list. 02:06 < kanzure> doesn't p2pfoundation use an announce list? 02:07 < fenn> om-yammer 02:07 < fenn> om-philosophy/politics 02:07 < fenn> hah 02:07 < fenn> om-files 02:08 < fenn> .bin uploads :P 02:08 * fenn takes a break from internet 02:08 < kanzure> I wouldn't mind om-files. 02:08 < fenn> "show me the code" 02:10 < kanzure> actually I think we're to a point where it's ok to do some coding for the repository packages 02:10 < kanzure> with my 'weaver' idea, the "to which level does this turtle belong" problem is solved 02:12 < kanzure_> various data sets - http://aws.amazon.com/publicdatasets/ "coming soon" - annotated human genome, pubchem 3D lib, economics db, and 'upload data set' form. 02:13 < fenn> i was messing with some units wrapper stuff the other day: http://fennetic.net/git/skdb.git 02:13 < fenn> (it doesnt do anything yet) 02:14 < kanzure_> http://fennetic.net/git/gitweb.cgi yay random guessing. 02:14 < fenn> yes, that 02:14 < kanzure_> http://fennetic.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=skdb.git;a=blob_plain;f=skdb.py;hb=HEAD 02:14 < kanzure_> ah. 02:15 < fenn> so i was trying to come up with an example file format specification for skdb but i got stuck on the units 02:15 < kanzure> well that's awkward. 02:15 < fenn> Unum wasnt that cool after all 02:15 < fenn> so i went back to the original plan of GNU units 02:15 < kanzure> btw, feel free to GPL some of the files in http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/me302/ (the 3D models) 02:15 < kanzure> and if you need me to resave the files in a better, more widely known format, just ask. 02:16 < kanzure> that would be good as an example file to contain in the 'tar' of an skdb package 02:16 < fenn> do it yourself :P 02:16 < kanzure> but unfortunately linking that up to information on things like ports or assembly info is 02:16 < kanzure> blah 02:16 < kanzure> fine fine fine.. 02:16 < fenn> COPYING 02:16 < kanzure> hm? 02:16 < fenn> 'all files in this directory are GPL2 or later' done 02:16 < kanzure> Hi `tty` just got your email, am replying in a sec 02:17 < `tty`> np, just reading more of your collected quotes 02:17 < kanzure> fenn: done. 02:17 < `tty`> some controversial in my view 02:17 < kanzure> feel free to do a running commentary on them in here 02:18 < kanzure> only if they're the good ones though I guess :) there are some that are obviously very stupid 02:18 < `tty`> <> 02:18 < `tty`> from Intense World Syndrome 02:18 < fenn> i have no idea what any of that stuff is for.. they just look like demo files 02:19 < fenn> class examples 02:19 < kanzure> yep. 02:19 < kanzure> no idea what they do either, I just draw them 02:19 < kanzure> but supposedly that information could be converted to gcode 02:19 < fenn> cool FEA simulation: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/me302/2008-10-16_pillow_assembly-1.jpg 02:20 < fenn> (bad design pillow block though) 02:20 < kanzure> really? These are all from a workbook, so I'd like to hear. 02:20 < kanzure> I'm sure I'm being poisoned 02:20 < kanzure> `tty`: yeah, there's a lot of neuroscience not present in that 02:21 < kanzure> `tty`: but there's some good neurophysiology on http://heybryan.org/school/buildingbrains/all.html just not linking up to 'virtual model building' quite. That quote came from a Henry Markram video on Google Videos. 02:21 < kanzure> for the Blue Brain Project, the simulation of a mouse cortical column in 2005. 02:22 < `tty`> a CCD is going to get every pixel as objectively as the CCD elements can record incoming photons as a signal .... 02:22 < `tty`> somehow what the CCD records is similar to what my brain tells me I'm seeing 02:23 < `tty`> i.e. all the pixels there.. my brain is not making it up 02:23 < `tty`> I understand that my brain also approximates etc 02:24 < kanzure> Yes, but realize also the studies of electrical stimulation on the surface of the cortex evoking various 'augmentations' to perceptions of reality, i.e. "what's going on" literally changes to you. 02:24 < `tty`> of course, I've been on mushrooms 02:24 < kanzure> Hrm, this is suffering from a lack of good verbiage. 02:24 < `tty`> lol 02:25 < `tty`> The problem I have is with their wording 02:25 < kanzure> He was talking off the top of his head, so it's not the best prose. 02:25 < kanzure> (twas a video, you see) 02:26 < `tty`> right, by the way, does Paul frequent this chan? 02:26 < kanzure> No, he refuses to. Nathan shows up sometimes though. 02:27 < `tty`> he's an interesting dude... 02:27 < kanzure> yeah, we like to keep those types of people around here :) 02:27 < `tty`> did you start Open Manufacturing group on google? 02:28 < kanzure> Nathan did, but before Open Manufacturing there was Open Virgle, which is where I found Paul 02:28 < kanzure> and before Open Virgle, there was fenn and me in here yelling at each other :p 02:28 < `tty`> and what kind of college degree that combines neuroscience with manufacturing engineering? like a B.S. with two concentrations? :) 02:28 < kanzure> simultaneous major :) 02:28 < `tty`> why these two? what's the connection? 02:28 < kanzure> so I get to go to classes like 'Building Brains' and then hop over to mechanical studies 02:29 < kanzure> Manufacturing engineering because that's where a large concentration of proprietary information remains ungoogleable, 02:29 < kanzure> and computational neuroscience because of my fascination with brains, building brains, computer science, and various intersections therein. 02:30 < `tty`> partial differential equations... remember those from my one grad course on neurophysiology 02:30 < kanzure> There's a subtle connection in 'manufacturing brains' :-p. 02:30 < kanzure> (that's where I start throwing up my arms laughing maniacly, btw.) 02:31 < `tty`> back then (late 80's early 90s) the best model I found was a spin-glass based neural network 02:31 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Computational_neuroscience 02:31 < kanzure> Lots of models, software packages etc. are out now. 02:32 < `tty`> SK... sherington kirkpatrick model i think.. and i spent 3 years digging into it 02:32 < kanzure> Some of the big projects with many many millions of dollars these days (Blue Brain Project) are doing molecular-level details and wiring up giant cat brains and the like. 02:32 < kanzure> Haven't heard of that one. 02:33 < `tty`> comes from condensed matter physics-->spin glass phase--->simulated annealing (and quantum annealing) <-- self organizing phenomena --> combinatorial optimization 02:33 < `tty`> very interesting... but 02:33 < kanzure> Huh. 02:34 < `tty`> eventually, i figured why not take a living brain and just wire it to some mechanical limbs 02:34 < kanzure> Yeah, I have a fascination with some mechanical models of neurons. Condensed matter isn't on my list yet. 02:34 < kanzure> right 02:34 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/neuro/ talks about that 02:34 < kanzure> such as manufacturing MEAs, microelectrode arrays, or even doing macroscopic electrodes that you can make with your hands (and then go see the trepanation studies, where people drill dangerous holes into their skulls) 02:35 < kanzure> erm, not trepanation studies, just trepanation doers. 02:35 < `tty`> well, if they focus their studies on interfacing with the spinal cord 02:35 < kanzure> Re: mechanical models of neurons, one recent thing we've been looking into in here has been ultrasound stimulation of the brain via 600 to 700 kHz 1-watt low frequency low intensity ultrasound. http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/Ultrasound_brain.pdf 02:36 < kanzure> I think spinal cord would be more dangerous than drilling into the skull. 02:36 < kanzure> Risk of paralysis, I mean. 02:36 < `tty`> right.. hmm 02:36 < kanzure> don't go all dr. octopus on me. 02:36 < `tty`> heh 02:37 < `tty`> I mean once they build a software model of the human brain that is 100% identical to the brain of a fetus at stage zero and let that thing grow 02:37 < `tty`> then wouldn't it take just as much time to learn and grow into a child stage brain 02:37 < kanzure> Embryonic development, and genetics, isn't yet typically integrated into the architectures. 02:39 < fenn> before Open Virgle was luf-team 02:39 < `tty`> i mean any human-brain-based electronic brain is useless without the "person" (the software that runs on that architecture) 02:39 < kanzure> What? 02:39 < fenn> but they got sidetracked with fuzzy UFO hippie stuff too much for my taste 02:39 < `tty`> lol 02:39 < `tty`> OK, so you build a neural network 02:39 < `tty`> now you have to train it 02:39 < `tty`> e.g. to recognize a given pattern 02:39 < `tty`> You show it the letter L and it says C 02:40 < `tty`> you tell it it's L 02:40 < `tty`> you show it L again and it says B 02:40 < `tty`> you tell it's L 02:40 < `tty`> and so on 02:40 < `tty`> until it can detect L anyway you write it 02:40 < `tty`> nonlinear feedback 02:41 < `tty`> so .. what good is copying the general structure of the brain without all the memories and learning etc 02:41 < `tty`> whatever makes the "self" 02:41 < `tty`> i never really understood that 02:41 < kanzure> Because self is a folk psych concept anyway. see buddhism and other ancient writings on this. 02:42 < fenn> because it's easier to manufacture neural network programs and the hardware to run them, than to manufacture new humans with all the responsibilities and legal red tape that goes with it 02:42 < kanzure> At best what we can do is see what general cognitive architectures tend to work (i.e., point to me a good brain) and see what's going on there. While this doesn't preserve 'self', you can at least preserve some traces of your own personal functionality. 02:43 < `tty`> how? there is the hardware and there is the software 02:43 < `tty`> copying teh hardware I understand 02:43 < `tty`> copying the software is not something I've seen discussed 02:43 < fenn> not talking about copying the software, the software would bootstrap itself just like an organic baby would 02:43 < `tty`> fetus 02:44 < kanzure> Oh, it's discussed all the time with the molecular nanotech people, but it just doesn't work. 02:44 < kanzure> http://minduploading.org/research.htm is fun to look at though 02:44 < fenn> fetus is not born yet right? 02:44 < kanzure> um 02:44 < `tty`> yup, first stage of development 02:44 < kanzure> http://minduploading.org/research.html 02:44 < kanzure> Was a bad link, sorry. 02:44 < `tty`> when you have two neurons you have a brain, more or less 02:44 < fenn> ok, so i cant see a fetus doing much learning 02:45 < fenn> anyway, brain scanning/mind uploading is a whole nother topic 02:45 < kanzure> I'm surprised that I don't have a link on my site for this topic yet 02:45 < `tty`> well, it can learn for sure, but basic patterns, and then you have genetics injecting "intuition" and "instinct" etc 02:45 < kanzure> on the concepts of what to do about 'cloning' and 'keeping traces' 02:45 < fenn> intuition and instinct get us into a lot of trouble 02:46 < `tty`> yes but evolution insists on giving them to us 02:46 < fenn> so? 02:46 * fenn points at the big "H+" sign in the topic 02:46 -!- fenn changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: H+ http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing http://heybryan.org/ 02:46 < fenn> haha 02:46 < `tty`> well, evolution tries different strategies 02:46 < kanzure> The intense-world-syndrome paper talks about metabolism in neurons in some cases. One type of metabolism will make more anxiety-prone individuals, which turns into specific anxiety-typical behaviors. obsessive compulsive searching for instance. 02:47 < `tty`> I think that describes me to some extent 02:47 < `tty`> need new meds 02:47 < kanzure> welcome to the club. 02:47 < kanzure> `tty`: Without getting too involved, is it just anxety stuff? 02:48 < `tty`> what do you mean? 02:48 < `tty`> I have mild OCD 02:48 < kanzure> Ah. 02:48 < `tty`> non-destructive type 02:48 < `tty`> for example 02:49 < `tty`> (and this is something i share with many people .. and the more i discuss it the more people i find with similar or more fascinating symptoms) 02:49 < kanzure> I'm ADHD and maybe an undiagnosed case of HFA or AS. 02:49 < `tty`> When I walk I sometimes find myself having to avoid certain spots on the road or walk along certain paths 02:49 < `tty`> not superstition 02:49 < `tty`> much stronger 02:50 < `tty`> my survival instinct is wired to my ass, by mistake i think 02:50 < `tty`> or something like thaty 02:50 < kanzure> Heh. 02:50 < `tty`> i was speaking to a PhD guy from MIT the other day, and he said he sees laser beams 02:50 < `tty`> and has to go in between 02:50 < kanzure> Anyway, I think it's unfair that I don't have a page on my site about cloning + an alternative to waiting (perhaps forever) for 100% mind uploading. 02:50 < kanzure> I'll have to remember to do write it. 02:50 < `tty`> he imagines them.. and he has to also time is crossing the road with certain movement of people on the other side 02:51 < `tty`> people are weird...teh smarter the werider 02:52 < `tty`> i have a friend who can't look at me or anyone... I thought his eyes were crossed.. so i throw a ball for him to catch but his eyes followed it perfectly.. then I realized people with autism have that issue 02:52 < fenn> unfortunately it doesnt go the other way (the weirder the smarter) 02:52 < kanzure> yes, re: autism and eye contact. The faces .. they steal attention. 02:53 < `tty`> well, rare and unique behavior (weird behavior) is always packing more new information that ordinary behavior 02:53 < `tty`> so in that sense, the weirder the behavior the more new information it's packing 02:53 < fenn> isnt that the definition? 02:54 < `tty`> definition of what? 02:54 < `tty`> i lost me 02:54 < fenn> information 02:54 < `tty`> everything is information... what isn't? 02:54 < fenn> energy 02:54 < kanzure> Ooh. 02:54 < fenn> time 02:54 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/infohoarding.html 02:54 < kanzure> Try that, `tty`, for weird. 02:55 < fenn> bah i can't find a good definiton of information 02:55 < `tty`> energy definitely contains information... or is information.. depending on how you look at it 02:55 < kanzure> Shannon has a log definition of information, and Boltzmann might also. 02:55 < kanzure> Salthe has one somewhere too. I'd go with that. 02:55 < `tty`> yes, but those definitions function within specific theories 02:56 < `tty`> those theories unfortunately are theories 02:56 < fenn> i love that name 02:56 < fenn> "lotta lotass" 02:57 < fenn> `tty`: at the risk of breaking my "no philosophy" rule; what isn't a theory? 02:57 < `tty`> hehe 02:57 < `tty`> let me see.... 02:57 < `tty`> non-computable judgment 02:57 < `tty`> has no theory 02:57 < `tty`> theory in the formal sense i mean 02:58 * fenn suspects 02:58 < `tty`> like axioms, propositions, deductive reasoning, proof <-- theory 02:59 < `tty`> if something is non-computable, can there be a theory that describe it? 02:59 < fenn> yep 02:59 < kanzure> (ask Wolfram?) 02:59 < kanzure> or ask Turing I guess. 02:59 < kanzure> Hrm. 02:59 < fenn> godel 02:59 < `tty`> wait a sec... 02:59 < kanzure> well I was getting close :-/ 02:59 < `tty`> all dont apply.. how are applying these? 02:59 < `tty`> Wolfram is concerned with computation a la cellular automata 03:00 < fenn> wolfram describes behaviors of systems that can't be known without running the systems 03:00 < kanzure> Turing on universal computation, and Godel about completeness and consistency in computation. 03:00 < `tty`> Godel concerned with meta mathematics or the logic of the logic used in mathematics 03:01 < `tty`> Turing was concerned with the halting problem, that you can't always predict if a program executing on a turning machine will come to a halt.. major issue for cloud services that have free quota 03:01 < `tty`> can't tell when someone will execute an endless loop that sucks up their entire quota 03:01 < `tty`> and then they're off till next quota window... Google's appengine has this problem and it goes back to the Halting problem (turing) 03:01 < fenn> well.. you could monitor the entire state of the system and see if it ever repeats, but that will use up an exponentially growin amount of memory 03:03 < `tty`> MS has some research done in this area and some statistical techniques (brute force) ... they have to test device drivers for such things .. I read a paper a long a time about this but they weren't saying it's 100% guaranteed.. just better than nothing 03:03 < kanzure> Oh? 03:03 < kanzure> Sounds like an interesting reference. 03:04 < `tty`> I never kept references like you do 03:04 < kanzure> 15,000 bookmarks and counting :-/ 03:04 < `tty`> cuz I grew up in a time when I didn't have a computer by me 24x7 and I used to actually read information printed on paper... 03:05 < kanzure> I'm reading some Orion's Arm email, and they're talking about the Fermi Paradox. Todd Drashner is asking for a calculation of the likelihood of there being a civilization out there in all of the galaxies that happens to be in the night sky that happens to be engaging in a super high energy operation for us to observe at this exact observation moment. Makes things seem unlikely. :-/ 03:05 < kanzure> paper, that's made out of cellulose right? 03:05 < kanzure> ancient devil thing. 03:05 < `tty`> so I'm still not used to using cut&paste to record stuff.. never developed that habit... sometimes i remember to bookmark stuff 03:05 * kanzure actually keeps paper stacked around him. 03:05 < `tty`> yup.. pulp media 03:06 < `tty`> so re: wolfram 03:06 < `tty`> I don't understand what you mean exactly... it involves computing the behavior 03:06 < `tty`> system doesn't have to execute/run 03:07 < `tty`> but if the behavior is non-computable (not hard to compute or computable if given infinite time and space but just non-computable) 03:07 < `tty`> i.e. there is no way to compute it 03:07 < `tty`> if you look at Penrose' Orchestrated Objective Reduction 03:07 < `tty`> or Penrose OR ... 03:07 < `tty`> same with Bohm 03:07 < `tty`> both picked up where Einstein left as far as "God doesn't play dice w/ universe" 03:08 < `tty`> but Penrose' version is pretty neat... no religious stuff 03:08 < kanzure> I avoid Penrose. 03:08 < `tty`> i don't think he was religious ... his version is this: 03:09 < fenn> so i was thinking about how to keep the internet from being shut off in vestmanneyjar, and came up with a mesh network of buoys in the ocean, with kite/windmill/microwave transmitters attached, for transmitting broadband over the horizon 03:09 < kanzure> kite? 03:09 < fenn> like the flying windmill idea 03:10 < fenn> tethered electric helicopter 03:10 < fenn> except in this case there's no power being transmitted back down 03:10 < percent> hey 03:10 < percent> Faggots 03:10 < percent> What the hell are you doing? 03:10 < fenn> go fuck youself 03:10 < percent> Are you still fucking up? 03:10 < percent> hi fenn :D 03:10 < fenn> hello 03:10 < `tty`> er... 03:11 < kanzure> fenn: I wonder who owns their fiber optics under the sea. 03:11 < kanzure> `tty`: ignore the troll. 03:11 < percent> Wait, kanzure is calling me a troll? 03:11 < percent> Christ, it only took you four months 03:11 < kanzure> Everyone knows it, just not the newbies. 03:12 < percent> We have new people here? 03:12 < kanzure> No. 03:12 < fenn> mostly they just lurk, it seems 03:12 < percent> Shows I've been paying attention. 03:13 < fenn> have they figured out the source of the gamma ray bursts yet? 03:13 < fenn> (re: fermi paradox) 03:15 < fenn> imagine this scenario: you have an infinity warp drive, but whenever you use it, your position is given away by a gamma ray burst, so you have to move your colony/ship whatever randomly each time 03:15 < fenn> so you pick a place where it will take a sufficiently long time for the light cone to reach unfriendly eyes 03:16 < `tty`> when is BSG back? 03:16 * `tty` thinking out loud... 03:16 < `tty`> any BSG fans here? 03:16 < fenn> no 03:16 < kanzure_> Sort of. 03:17 < fenn> i've never seen it, but it sounds sufficiently annoying to not investigate 03:17 < `tty`> lol 03:17 < `tty`> that's what i said at first 03:17 < kanzure_> blah. outgrowth of ISDC2008 - international space development conference - http://www.espacetickets.com/ 03:17 < `tty`> the drama's too much but ... 03:17 < kanzure> These guys think tourism is the way to get space-stuff going. 03:17 < fenn> it's too bad sub-orbital != space 03:18 < kanzure> oh, it's with XCOR. 03:18 < fenn> someone just needs to put up a nice big rotovator 03:18 < fenn> maybe if i say it enough it will become true 03:18 < kanzure> god this is a terrible website 03:18 -!- percent is now known as jihaaaaaad 03:18 < kanzure> maybe even worse than the WTA 03:27 < fenn> "Its a matter of building from simpler compounds found anywhere to create metals." :( :( :( 03:28 < kanzure> I feel a great disturbance in the force. 03:28 < fenn> who starts a group about manufacturing and doesn't know what a metal is? 03:29 < kanzure> is this even possible though 03:29 < kanzure> occam's razor must be applicable here 03:29 < kanzure> like, maybe he's had a stroke 03:39 < kanzure> fenn: you should propose your idea to smari. 03:39 < kanzure> or at least mention it. 03:39 < kanzure> oh, I haven't considered whether they have available satellite infrastructure 03:40 < fenn> satellite is just as vulnerable as fiber 03:41 < kanzure> stealing the dish is easy. 03:41 < fenn> we can't send up our own satellite any time soon 03:41 < kanzure> some other company will step in and offer service 03:41 < kanzure> right, I know 03:41 < kanzure> but you're trying to come up with something that they need 03:41 < kanzure> that simultaneously attaches us to them somehow 03:41 < fenn> i'm planning on massive trade sanctions 03:41 < `tty`> what's iceland's problem ? 03:41 < kanzure> it's blowing up 03:41 < fenn> rich people stole all their money 03:42 < `tty`> so their currency is now useless? 03:42 < `tty`> but they still have natural resources, no? 03:42 < fenn> so we are trying to take advantage of the situation by creating a free "state" 03:42 < `tty`> or a free community at least 03:42 < kanzure> they don't have much in the way of natural resources 03:42 < kanzure> fenn was talking about basalt houses/furniture a bit before you came in 03:42 < fenn> there are no trees, but there's geothermal energy and a lot of really intelligent people 03:43 < kanzure> also a wicked language. 03:43 < fenn> who needs trees anyway :P 03:43 < kanzure> stupid trees 03:43 < `tty`> k, so you can't export geothermal energy but you can use it 03:43 < fenn> i wonder how long it would take to grow a dome's worth of bamboo in a dome 03:43 < `tty`> they have cheap electricity? 03:43 < kanzure> you don't get it 03:43 < fenn> well, you can export it, but nobody's bothered to try to figure out how 03:44 < fenn> i guess this is why there is an aluminum smelting industry there 03:44 < kanzure> cheap electricity => not if the companies are dying 03:44 < `tty`> hmm.. so what's your idea? 03:44 < kanzure> well, Smari asked all of us on om how to apply om stuff to the situation 03:44 < kanzure> openmanufacturing = om 03:44 < fenn> `tty`: http://vinay.howtolivewiki.com/blog/global/free-guptastan-583 03:45 < fenn> kanzure: is that what he asked? 03:45 < kanzure_> did you read his email? 03:45 < `tty`> what if there is no short term solution? are they willing to invest labor and energy into a long term solution? 03:45 < fenn> "how can the principles being talked of here be made 03:45 < fenn> applicable immediately in a useful way?" 03:46 < `tty`> heh 03:46 < fenn> i guess i sort of ignored the short term 03:47 < fenn> honestly i dont even see what the problem is in the short term 03:48 < kanzure> right, that's why I was asking about their food situation and living and so on 03:48 < kanzure> are the fault lines going to open up and swallow them into a hell, that sort of thing? 03:48 < `tty`> well, if a complex system, such as an economy, collapses.... you can't even put it back together the way it was.. imagine a complex physical sytructure collapses... how do you put it back? the now-collapsed economy didn't even come with a diagram showing how it was constructed... and who really knows how its constructed? probably no one single person 03:49 < kanzure> or is it just an opportunity to push some openness into the mix 03:49 < `tty`> so you guys thinking right 03:49 < `tty`> something new and radical has to take its place 03:49 < kanzure> like something with diagrams! 03:49 < kanzure> gasp 03:49 < kanzure> how radical! burn him! 03:49 < fenn> metadata, wah! 03:49 < `tty`> heh 03:50 < `tty`> you guys are right.. this is very interesting... a small country collapses 03:50 < jihaaaaaad> hey faggots what's up 03:50 < fenn> not just any small country 03:50 < `tty`> and it presents an awesome opportunity 03:50 < fenn> a small country with lots of really smart people 03:51 < `tty`> right, and nice women too 03:51 < fenn> ...and they're white, which probably makes more difference than it should 03:51 < `tty`> difference to whom? oh, yeah... right 03:51 < fenn> to attracting tourists 03:51 < `tty`> unlike new orleans 03:51 < fenn> to not getting nuked and then ignored by the international media 03:52 < kanzure_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNFftA1Pry0 <- Most awesome yell ever. Check out 2:36 and a bit after that. 03:52 < jihaaaaaad> Mmm, racism 03:52 < `tty`> so the idea of starting a new "free/barter or new money" community there is viable 03:52 < fenn> jihaaaaaad: thanks for reminding me 03:52 < kanzure> `tty`: why money. 03:53 < `tty`> incremental 03:53 < `tty`> nothing radical 03:53 < `tty`> first reaction = throw away money 03:53 < `tty`> = reactiveness? 03:53 < `tty`> after the shock you tend to react and after that you settle somewhere between he two extremes 03:54 < `tty`> one extreme is money as it is today 03:54 < `tty`> another extreme is no money 03:54 < `tty`> middle ground = something in between, e.g. smarter money, more fair money, etc 03:54 < fenn> i think new money is the best long term solution 03:54 < fenn> by which i mean more than just a scalar quantity 03:54 < `tty`> i don't know... well 03:54 < fenn> "i dont want your blood money" 03:54 < `tty`> I put out this long ass post: 03:55 < `tty`> http://evolvingtrends.wordpress.com/2008/10/21/p2p-social-currency-money-20/ 03:55 < kanzure> fenn: you could make a campaign out of that line. 03:55 < `tty`> about multidimensional value system for local exchange and energy based money, no interest, etc 03:55 < fenn> i guess superman never learned CPR? 03:56 < `tty`> hehe 03:56 < kanzure> at least neo dug around a bit 03:57 < `tty`> they can always go back to the oldest profession 03:57 < fenn> new-amsterdam 03:57 < kanzure> New New York 03:57 < fenn> not sure why vinay doesnt like prostitution 03:58 < `tty`> new Bankog 03:58 < kanzure> probably because he doesn't like how much money they mak 03:58 < kanzure> *make 03:58 < kanzure> a good whore apparently can make upwards $20k/night 03:58 < fenn> ah i thought you were going to say New-Babylon :) 03:58 < fenn> kanzure: conditions have to be right for that 03:58 < `tty`> new babylon brings up images of hairy women 03:58 < kanzure> of course. 03:59 < kanzure> don't ask me how the porn industry sorts itself out. still a mystery to me. 03:59 < `tty`> ppl like elliot spitzer 03:59 < `tty`> that's how 03:59 < `tty`> $4k/hr 04:00 < `tty`> k, the ppl here are going to watch 24 .. new episode or some shit... 04:01 < `tty`> nice chatting.. keep talking about iceland.. some of the ideas will definitely be tried there.. I'm sure of it.. people have lost so much they have nothing to lose trying new ideas 04:01 < kanzure> So you've made good progress. :) One quote out of the entire site. 04:01 < kanzure> at this rate ybit will remain champion, or something 04:01 < kanzure> (ybit was doing the same thing a few months ago) 04:01 < `tty`> who's ybit? 04:02 < kanzure> ybit's in the channel, he hangs. :) 04:02 < `tty`> what's "One quote out of the entire site" ... your site? 04:02 < `tty`> you have a ton of quotes there 04:02 < kanzure> Well you mentioned something about coming in to do running commentary on the site as you read through it. 04:02 < `tty`> oh yeah.. 04:02 < fenn> ybit was attempting to do a complete traversal of heybryan.org 04:02 < `tty`> i have ADD too 04:03 < kanzure> ah, it takes ADHD to read heybryan.org 04:03 < kanzure> the H stands for H+ ;-) or something. 04:03 < `tty`> i didn't mean that 04:03 * fenn couldnt stomach that crap :) 04:03 < ybit> DON'T DO IT tty 04:03 < kanzure> hahah 04:03 < `tty`> lol 04:03 < ybit> it will f' your life up 04:03 < ybit> :) 04:03 < `tty`> well, he has a great collection.. and I like the electronics projects,,, the pic stuff... 04:04 < `tty`> gtg guys... l8r 04:04 < kanzure> Wait 'til you start reading http://heybryan.org/books/ 04:04 < ybit> note: kanzure made all the art himself 04:04 < `tty`> ') 04:04 < kanzure> wait what? 04:04 < `tty`> dzzt. 04:04 < ybit> hehe, kidding 04:05 < kanzure> sad that people leave. 04:07 < ybit> sad that people don't realize there isn't a life aside from the internet :) 04:08 < fenn> i've looked for it and i see no evidence 04:08 < kanzure> besides the hunger pains, that is 04:08 < fenn> ah, i ration food to myself on a "push" model 04:09 < kanzure> hm? 04:09 < fenn> hence all the whining about having eaten too much ice cream etc 04:09 < kanzure> scheduled eating times? 04:09 < kanzure> yeah, the pull model doesn't really work well for me 04:09 < ybit> push your stomach's load capacity to the limits? 04:10 < kanzure> since it doesn't align with the cafeteria schedule really 04:10 < kanzure> who closes a university cafeteria at 7 pm anyway? 04:10 < kanzure> and opens at 11 am on the weekends? 04:10 < ybit> wow 04:10 < jihaaaaaad> It's insane, isn't it? 04:10 < ybit> i bet the fast food restaurants had something to do with that :) 04:10 < kanzure> There's one renting a section of the first floor / garage level. 04:11 < kanzure> and then on the other side of the block is everything ever. 04:11 < fenn> do they require you to pre-pay for meals? (at exorbitant prices) 04:11 < kanzure> about $500 for an unlimited meal plan 04:11 < kanzure> and it's all-you-can-eat. 04:11 < fenn> eh that's not bad 04:11 < fenn> at IU they had "points" which were basically dollars that you couldn't get back 04:11 < kanzure> true, but for running back home to eat, spending 20 minutes trip time for that, things get annoying 04:12 < kanzure> this is off campus though, 04:12 < kanzure> but technically just across one street from campus. 04:12 < kanzure> there's "bevo bucks" here for their own money system 04:12 < kanzure> apparently if I was living on campus, my bevo buck account would have been filled with some starting points 04:12 < fenn> i thought you were in a dorm 04:12 < kanzure> I am. 04:13 < fenn> an off-campus dorm? 04:13 < kanzure> yes. 04:13 < fenn> that doesnt make any sense 04:13 < kanzure> http://thecastilian.com/ 04:14 < kanzure> oh wait 04:14 < kanzure> wrong about the meal plan 04:14 < kanzure> it's $300 on top of the basic meal package 04:38 < gene> so Kanzure 04:38 < kanzure> ? 04:39 < gene> I just talked with one of my friends in biochem, he says that it's electrical engineering without the electricity 04:39 < kanzure> it=biochem? 04:39 < gene> and that you can tag an organism with a sequence to make it export a certain protein 04:39 < kanzure> that's kind of why there's biobricks 04:39 < gene> biochemistry 04:39 < kanzure> right, there's certain transporter molecules 04:39 < gene> Unfortunately he doesn't know how 04:40 < kanzure> erm, transporter proteins 04:40 < kanzure> the trick of molecular biologists is to biotinylate everything for sticking them together 04:40 < kanzure> and for passing them through the membrane, there's 04:40 < kanzure> blah, I know this one 04:40 < gene> vesicles? 04:40 < kanzure> No, there's an actual transporter protein. 04:41 < kanzure> not just vesicles, not integral proteins, not ion-like channels 04:41 < gene> so how do you pick out one protein? 04:41 < kanzure> but rather it's like 'capping' 04:41 < gene> oh 04:41 < gene> so add some cap sequence to the protein? 04:41 < kanzure> well, biochemists study cells forever and do ridiculously excruciating purification studies to figure out what molecules cause what 04:42 < kanzure> is it rhodopsin? 04:43 < gene> the eye protein? 04:43 < kanzure> hrm, definitely not. 04:45 < gene> it's a light sensing compound 04:45 < gene> looks useful 04:45 < kanzure> there's research that people do with these proteins, and even basic nucleic acid sequences to cap a protein (not amino acids), that transport things in and out of emulsions 04:45 < fenn> it's called a targeting sequence for mRNA, if that helps 04:45 < gene> hmm.... 04:45 < gene> light sensory proteins 04:45 < kanzure> isn't there a protein thingy that does this fenn? 04:46 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_peptide 04:46 < kanzure> gene: but this isn't going to get lipids out of the cell 04:46 < kanzure> there has to be a way to open lipid-passing pores in the membrane of some sort. 04:46 < kanzure> I suggest looking into the KEGG/KEBB pathway databases, or things like reactome.org 04:47 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/List_of_bioinformatics_databases 04:47 < gene> now if we could figure out how to chain that light sensing protein to something else, to make that messed up polymerase 04:47 < kanzure> so you should go read the Ellington paper 04:47 < kanzure> about bacteria + photographs 04:47 < kanzure> what they did is engineered the bacteria to have a reaction pathway based off of sensing light 04:48 < kanzure> so there was some signal cascade network inside with GoFP and such 04:48 < gene> ellington was the one who did that? 04:48 < kanzure> well, his students 04:48 < gene> who made an FSM? 04:48 < kanzure> and it was his picture that got photographed, of all things 04:48 < gene> in bacteria 04:48 < kanzure> finite state machine? I'm not sure 04:48 < kanzure> there was Mujanovic though 04:48 < kanzure> who made tic-tac-toe 04:48 < fenn> gene: "The large geometry change associated with azobenzene photoisomerization has also been used to control protein activity with light. " 04:48 < kanzure> with dna 04:48 < gene> no Flying Sphagetti monster 04:48 < kanzure> oh, same thing 04:48 < fenn> fsm/fsm same thing 04:49 < fenn> the universe is a giant fsm 04:49 < kanzure> no, I mean, ellington same thing 04:49 < kanzure> anyway, 04:49 < gene> no wasn't him 04:49 < gene> http://fsmbacteria.ytmnd.com/ 04:49 < kanzure> hrm. 04:49 < kanzure> ytmnd hosting it? wtf 04:49 < gene> first link on google for FSM bacteria 04:50 < kanzure> you know what 04:50 < kanzure> I haven't looked into this yet 04:50 < kanzure> there might be enough characterized biobricks to do something like this 04:50 < kanzure> though the lipid transport mechanism is the hard part 04:51 < gene> why not put protein x in vesicles, and attach magnetosomes to the vesicle? 04:51 < gene> so you can magnetically seperate it 04:51 < kanzure> to my knowledge you can't just ask stuff nicely to go into a vesicle 04:52 < gene> ok 04:52 < gene> my bad 04:52 < kanzure> the way that neurons do it though is interesting 04:52 < gene> that's right neurons do it 04:52 < kanzure> the vesicles smash into the neuronal membrane inside and then have a release mechanism much like signaling, except kind of reversed due to proteins attached to the inner membrane or something. 04:53 < kanzure> actually, ignore that whole message. 04:53 < gene> grow neurons in a dish, have them just pump out neurotransmitters and harvest them 04:53 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/Biology/ has a few books on neuroscience that would be good to read. 04:53 < kanzure> well, a better way to do that would be to just splice the reaction networks into bacteria 04:53 < kanzure> I was looking into this for growing-your-own-neurotransmitters 04:53 < kanzure> nobody's doing it yet, I'm not sure why 04:53 < gene> well we're doing prokaryotes so that's a bit irrelvant 04:54 < kanzure> right, but don't put it into neurons, you want to optimize the production like crazy. 04:54 < kanzure> although with neurons you could stimulate their release, which I guess is a partial advantage 04:54 < kanzure> but anyway :) 04:54 < gene> so we want polymerases 04:54 < kanzure> huh? 04:54 < gene> let's start with that 04:54 < gene> we want dna polymerases 04:54 < kanzure> what are you talking about now? 04:55 < gene> those are the proteins we should focus on first for seperation 04:55 < kanzure> for separation, from what ? 04:55 < gene> everything 04:55 < kanzure> are we just talking about a general polymerase supply? 04:55 < gene> that isn't DNA polymerase 04:56 < gene> yeah 04:56 < kanzure> aptamers would be good at this since polymerase's shape shouldn't change 04:56 < kanzure> or antihistamines engineered a bit 04:56 < gene> yeah 04:56 < kanzure> there's actually a way to do single-protein expression via in vitro transcription 04:57 < kanzure> something where you'd attach the in vitro transcription mechanisms to the surface 04:57 < kanzure> (biotinylated to the surface of course :-) 04:57 < gene> heh 04:58 < fenn> or you could just get one of those 1" round cells from the bottom of the ocean 04:59 < gene> they're apparently abunch of single cells I believe 04:59 * fenn wonders if they taste the same as in his dream 04:59 < kanzure> first I'd like to see some videos of them. 04:59 < gene> oh and fenn, you might be able to turn algae to epoxy 04:59 < gene> http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5973082/claims.html 05:00 < fenn> i'm afraid that i'm going to have to make a patent-speak translator some day 05:00 < gene> Kanzure, you could probably get samples of them 05:00 < gene> the researcher who discovered them is on campus 05:01 < gene> One of the most interesting things about them is that they roll 05:01 < gene> very few organisms roll 05:01 < gene> to get around 05:01 < kanzure> tumbleweed! 05:01 < kanzure> they're organisms! 05:01 < kanzure> it's a conspiracy. 05:02 < gene> tumbleweed doesn't roll under it's own power 05:02 < kanzure> bah! ;-) 05:02 < fenn> neither do sea blobs 05:02 < kanzure> That's what makes it a conspiracy 05:02 < gene> they do 05:02 < gene> just REALLY SLOWLY 05:02 < fenn> i thought they had legs or pseudopods anyway 05:03 < gene> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQslM6ZAdnU 05:03 < gene> videos 05:03 < gene> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr8sEjwEeow&feature=related 05:03 < kanzure> Neat, our natsci dept has youtube videos. 05:04 < gene> yeah 05:05 < gene> another cool thing about these things is that they roll and they are protists, this means that any decision making is LOCAL, as opposed to global 05:05 < kanzure> I wonder at what pressure this was at and their feed. I'd totally do an aquarium for blobs. 05:05 * fenn feels cheated 05:05 < kanzure> ? 05:05 < fenn> talking + photographs != video 05:06 < kanzure> yeah :/ 05:06 < gene> yes it is 05:06 < gene> it is a low framerate video with sound 05:06 < kanzure> it's not hard to hook up a scope to a cam corder, gene 05:06 < kanzure> do they still call them camcorders? 05:06 < gene> no 05:06 < kanzure> "video phones", is it? 05:07 < gene> yeah, I don't know if they've done much in the way of dissections 05:07 < gene> they have video from the ROV though 05:07 < fenn> heh "plop" 05:07 < kanzure> Next we'll see "successfull plopulation of seablobs" 05:08 < gene> sorta hard to dissect something under a couple hundred PSI 05:08 < kanzure> ah, is that what it's living at? 05:08 < gene> no idea 05:09 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/aeon_flux_leisure_uA9yYwKN8BU.flv 05:09 < kanzure> Aeon flux was a terrible movie, should I click? 05:09 < fenn> yes, the movie was terrible 05:09 < fenn> it's a bit like what happened with starship troopers 05:10 < kanzure> except a few billion times worse 05:10 < kanzure> although I never knew there was an original story 05:10 < kanzure> to aeonflux 05:10 < fenn> dunno if i mentioned but aeon flux is my hero 05:10 < gene> Aeon Flux is a cyberpunk movie with good eyecandy does it matter if it is bad 05:10 < kanzure> what ? it wasn't cyberpunk, it was just some chick with dyed hair 05:11 < fenn> the original series was super h+ biopunk 05:11 < kanzure> there was an original series? huh. 05:11 < fenn> the movie was just some weaksauce hollywood bullshit 05:11 < kanzure> are we talking about the same thing? 05:12 < gene> I never watched it 05:14 < fenn> crap. don't ever expect something to stay on youtube 05:15 < kanzure> I've lost my fair share of videos due to youtube takedown. 05:15 < gene> can't watch FLV 05:15 < kanzure> go get a real media player, like mplayer 05:15 < gene> can't find information on the depth the blob lives at 05:15 < gene> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B6VRT-4TYRF97-6-3&_cdi=6243&_user=108429&_coverDate=11%2F20%2F2008&_sk=%23TOC%236243%239999%23999999999%2399999%23FLA%23display%23Articles_in_Press%23tagged%23Volume%23first%3D0%23date%23(20_November_2008)%23&view=c&_gw=y&wchp=dGLbVzW-zSkzV&_valck=1&md5=d35fc896e99a1d2d67c0e07c66ce097d&ie=/sdarticle.pdf 05:16 < kanzure> god I hate sciencedirect's URL structure 05:16 < gene> yeah I do 05:16 < kanzure> they try so hard to obfuscate their internal structure 05:16 < kanzure> all sorts of md5 hashes.. 05:17 < gene> use google to crack it 05:17 < kanzure> No, there's an md5 check sum database on rizon. 05:17 < gene> heh 05:17 < kanzure> But none of them were found, it's something greater than 10 characters apparently 05:18 < gene> argh 05:19 < gene> can't extract mplayer 05:19 < fenn> add debian-multimedia.org to your /etc/apt/sources.list 05:20 < fenn> deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org lenny main 05:20 < gene> I run windows 05:20 < fenn> it will probably bitch about unsigned packages 05:20 < fenn> oh well, sucks to be you then 05:20 < gene> indeed it does 05:20 < kanzure> man 05:20 < kanzure> if only there was some way 05:20 < kanzure> to freely download debian 05:20 < fenn> if only there were such a thing as free software, that anyone could use 05:20 < kanzure> and to freely order debian CDs. 05:20 < kanzure> holy shit 05:20 < gene> and I've had trouble installing debian 05:21 < kanzure> we could be rich 05:21 < gene> you know kanzure 05:21 < kanzure> go for ubuntu then. 05:21 < gene> yeah 05:21 < kanzure> they have thousands of youtube videos. 05:21 < kanzure> as if they wanted people to learn 05:21 < gene> I will do that over the break 05:21 < fenn> no, do it now while you have high speed net access 05:21 < gene> I don't have bandwidth limits at home 05:21 < gene> and I have discs at home 05:22 < kanzure> what are you spending your bandwidth on? 05:23 < gene> school 05:23 < kanzure> No, really, what in particular? 05:23 < gene> screw it 05:23 < gene> browsing 05:23 < kanzure> IRC isn't much, PDFs aren't much but less than a megabyte, 05:23 < kanzure> browsing also isn't much 05:24 < gene> Screw I'll download ubuntu right now 05:24 < kanzure> I suggest you follow the instructions of a good youtube video, or a tutorial somewhere on the web for dual booting 05:24 < fenn> bah "the complete animated collection" doesnt include the first season, which is the only good season 05:25 < fenn> people sure know how to screw things up 05:26 < gene> I need a blank CD, do you have one Kanzure? 05:26 < kanzure> yes. 05:26 < kanzure> but you should be able to do this by thumbdrive by the way 05:27 < gene> how? 05:27 < kanzure> that's what the tutorials are for. 05:27 < fenn> also there's "wubi" 05:28 < kanzure> ? 05:28 < fenn> windows eradicator :) 05:28 < fenn> no reboot necessary 05:28 < kanzure> I wonder why I still haven't tried solidworks on wine. 05:31 < gene> because ur lazy 05:31 < kanzure> cool, Multi Theft Auto has gone GPL. 05:31 < gene> hot dog, I do have a blank CD 05:32 < gene> cool 05:32 < gene> and my download might finish before 12 05:32 < fenn> Multi Theft Auto, is that a video game? 05:32 < gene> which means that I beat the bandwidth limit 05:32 < kanzure_> `Last night, Nov. 22nd, veteran satellite observer Kevin Fetter video-recorded the backpack-sized bag gliding over his backyard observatory in Brockville, Ontario. "It was easily 8th magnitude or brighter as it passed by the 4th magnitude star eta Pisces," he says. Spaceweather's satellite tracker is monitoring the toolbag.'"` 05:33 < kanzure_> it's a mod to GTA 3 on windows 05:33 < kanzure_> so yes 05:33 < gene> heh, still trying to mod games Kanzure? 05:33 < kanzure_> What? still? 05:33 < kanzure_> `One PhD student, ?yvind Brandtsegg, is a graduate of the jazz program and this article describes how has developed a computer program and a musical instrument for improvisation. ` 05:33 < gene> oops didn't mean still 05:34 < gene> oh hey do you want a cool physics sandbox thing kanzure? 05:34 < fenn> phun? 05:34 < gene> no rigidchips 05:34 < gene> it's 3D 05:35 < gene> people have made some really cool spaceship simulations in it 05:35 < gene> http://www.iamas.ac.jp/~takeya04/softwareE.html 05:35 < gene> winblows only 05:35 < kanzure> I'll stick with ogre and friends. 05:35 < gene> you can get it to work in wine 05:35 < kanzure> how do you know that 05:35 < gene> what's ogre? 05:36 < gene> oh 05:36 < gene> How do I know it works in wine? 05:36 < gene> One of my friends did it 05:36 < kanzure_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics_engine#Open_source Box2D, bullet, Open Dynamics Engine, OPAL, Pal, Tokamak physics engine, Farseer physics engine, Physics2D.net, chipmunk, phyz. 05:37 < kanzure_> ogre is supposed to be there I think 05:37 < fenn> rigidchips looks abandoned (2006 last update) 05:37 < kanzure_> oh, ogre is just graphics 05:37 < fenn> ogre is more like scenegraph stuff 05:38 < kanzure_> `OPAL is a high-level interface for low-level physics engines used in games, robotics simulations, and other 3D applications. Features a simple C++ API, intuitive objects (e.g. Solids, Joints, Motors, Sensors), and XML-based file storage for complex objects.` 05:38 < fenn> ODE + OGRE wouldnt be a bad way to go 05:38 < kanzure_> `The Physics Abstraction Layer (PAL) is an open source cross platform physical simulation API abstraction system. It is similar to a physics engine wrapper, however it is far more flexible providing extended abilities. PAL is free software, released under the BSD license.` 05:38 < gene> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGhNSlgmaEg&feature=related 05:38 < gene> rigidchips demo 05:38 < kanzure_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Dynamics_Engine 05:38 < kanzure_> hm, ODE doesn't look bad 05:38 < gene> rigidchips might be cool to port to ODE 05:38 < kanzure_> terrible name of course :) conflicts with actual ODEs in physics 05:39 < kanzure_> to port to ODE? 05:39 < kanzure_> what? 05:39 < gene> rigidchips is just so easy to do 05:39 < fenn> why bother 05:39 < fenn> look at all those curly braces. obviously an inferior language 05:40 < gene> there is also a visual editor for rigid chips 05:40 < kanzure_> I wonder if they even have a parser 05:40 < kanzure_> visual editors come with all sorts of engines. 05:40 < gene> what's a parser? 05:40 < kanzure_> not a big deal. 05:40 < kanzure_> In computer science and linguistics, parsing, or, more formally, syntactic analysis, is the process of analyzing a sequence of tokens to determine their grammatical structure with respect to a given (more or less) formal grammar. 05:40 < kanzure_> In formal semantics, computer science and linguistics, a formal grammar (also called formation rules) is a precise description of a formal language - that is, of a set of strings over some alphabet. In other words, a grammar describes which of the possible sequences of symbols (strings) in a language constitute valid words or statements in that language, but it does not describe their semantics (i.e. what they mean). The branch of mathematics that i 05:40 < kanzure_> etc. 05:40 < gene> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbpEVo1nuxU&feature=related 05:41 < fenn> the lack of a hands-on chip manipulation mode is pretty lame if you ask me 05:41 < gene> that's what the editor does 05:41 < fenn> yes, i know. it's still lame 05:42 < gene> there is also file you can get for editing chips in rigid chips 05:42 < gene> you can write scenario and game files for rigidchips 05:43 < gene> it's not that hard 05:43 < gene> it's all based in lua 05:44 < fenn> http://yade.wikia.com/wiki/Screenshots_and_videos 05:44 < kanzure> oh please, lua is simple 05:44 < kanzure> and cross-platform, so that's no excuse 05:45 < gene> the physics is based in directx 05:45 < kanzure> directx is a graphics library, not a physics engine 05:46 < gene> yeah 05:46 < gene> it is 05:46 < kanzure> .. 05:47 < kanzure> No it's not. 05:47 < gene> Ok I am wrong 05:47 < gene> the thing about rigidchips is that it is easy to use 05:48 < gene> it's actually based on an old japanese videogame called panekit 05:49 < fenn> hmm i remember "yade" being cooler for some reason 05:49 < gene> http://code.google.com/p/openpanekit/ 05:49 < gene> why is yade cooler? 05:50 < fenn> because it's not rigid 05:50 < gene> can you make a car in yade? 05:51 < kanzure> anyway, part of the deal is that the skdb units are supposed to load up components that they need for simulation, not the other way around (centralized simulator thingy) 05:51 < gene> what about a spaceship, or an airplane 05:51 < kanzure> you have to design those things, gene 05:51 < kanzure> software doesn't magically know :/ 05:51 < gene> I know you do, that's the fun of rigidchips 05:51 < kanzure> manually inserting data? 05:52 < fenn> yay for building things out of little squares 05:52 < fenn> with lua :( 05:52 < kanzure> gah. 05:52 < fenn> (SL has permanently turned me off to Lua) 05:52 < kanzure> SL is using lua? huh. 05:52 < kanzure> I got turned off of lua when I was making my superawesome MMORPG that did everything, including solved the universe 05:53 < fenn> that's what all the user scripting is in 05:53 < gene> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LfG3SHOeWc&feature=related 05:53 < kanzure> so it was this giant OOP mess with scripting for everything, including keyboard movement 05:53 < kanzure> (lua scripting in particular) 05:54 < gene> all of that in the video is completely rigidchips 05:54 < gene> even the visualization 05:55 < fenn> that is a pretty cool video 05:55 < kanzure> gene, it's not like we've been trying to impress you or anything but 05:55 < gene> ok 05:55 < kanzure> those types of things are like just loading up a few terrains, meshes and textures into a simulator 05:56 < gene> yup 05:56 < kanzure> and then animation skeletons and running the animation sequences 05:56 < kanzure> so I don't see what the big deal is 05:56 < gene> try out rigidchips 05:56 < kanzure> any general engine is going to support this sort of thing 05:56 < gene> it is like crack 05:56 < kanzure> unless there's some particular physics that this supports that others don't 05:57 < kanzure> heh, action sequence. 05:58 < kanzure> I wonder if this is doing full number crunching. I sort of doubt that splash dynamics are being calculated. 05:58 < fenn> the ships arent part of the physics model 05:58 < fenn> poo 05:58 < gene> no splash dynamics aren't being calculated 05:59 < gene> they're just animation 05:59 < gene> yeah they aren't fenn 06:00 < gene> you might not be able to calculate splash dynamics in real time 06:00 < kanzure> that's why I said that. 06:00 < kanzure> Generally you can't. That would all be farm rendering stuff. 06:01 < gene> maybe with that box of yours... 06:01 < fenn> i dont think it would be impossible with today's hardware 06:02 < kanzure> real time, without pre-rendering, and without lag? 06:02 < fenn> using quadtrees and visual level of detail meshing 06:02 < kanzure> for a thousand bullets a sec hitting the water? 06:02 < kanzure> heh, quadtrees 06:02 < fenn> wot 06:02 < fenn> also GPGPU 06:02 < fenn> or whatever its called 06:03 < gene> well the way rigid chips does fluid dynamics is that it takes the orientation of the chip and how fast it's moving to calculate the force 06:03 < kanzure> as opposed to actual CFD/FEA methods 06:03 < gene> rigidchips also doesn't consider collisions between chips 06:03 < fenn> aka no fluid dynamics 06:03 < gene> yup 06:03 < kanzure> .. 06:03 < fenn> again.. what is the point? 06:03 < gene> try out rigidchips fenn 06:03 < kanzure> no collision detection either? 06:03 < kanzure> wtf? 06:04 < gene> between chips 06:04 < gene> you know why? 06:04 < gene> because it cause earlier versions to slow down a lot 06:04 < gene> it's in the earlier versions but not the current 06:04 < kanzure> "oh, well, since our algorithm sucks, we're not going to include it, even though it's a defining element of what this is supposed to be" 06:05 < gene> you can do creative stuff with chips going through each other 06:05 < kanzure> You have some bias with rigidchips? 06:05 < gene> you can also simulate vision algorithms 06:05 < gene> yes Kanzure, it is crack 06:06 < gene> hey if you could help me make a better version that'd be great 06:06 < fenn> so, besides cars and airplanes, what does it do? 06:06 < fenn> is it even open source? 06:07 < gene> zeppelins, machine guns, boats, submarines, tetris, tanks, anything you can think of 06:08 < gene> no it's not open source, which sucks 06:08 < fenn> how does tetris work without collision detection 06:08 < gene> you connect a bunch of chips together in a grid formation, and write a program to make them change colors 06:08 < kanzure> I don't get it. is this just some animation suite? if it's not actually doing any physics 06:09 < kanzure> it looks like it's just executing skeletal animations. 06:09 < gene> it's doing physics 06:09 < kanzure> which isn't a big deal. 06:09 < kanzure> what physics? not fluids, not collisions, what's left? 06:09 < gene> collisions with the ground are simulated 06:09 < gene> there are also jets, wheels, and balloons 06:09 < kanzure> big deal, x=g * cos 06:10 < fenn> heheh 06:10 < fenn> isnt that f = m * a 06:10 < fenn> - 9.8m/s^2 06:10 < kanzure> well, from what I've seen so far, he probably doesn't mean force 06:10 < kanzure> and instead just means seeing a height variable (y, rather) decrement 06:10 < kanzure> until it hits ground. 06:10 < gene> force is taken into account 06:10 < kanzure> but not collision 06:11 < gene> Kanzure I'll just have to show it to you today 06:12 < gene> especially the segway unicycle simulation and the dynamically balanced walker simulation 06:14 < kanzure> fenn: but anyway, I think we already agreed that local simulation, where the python scripts provide some of the equations, would be ideal for what we wanted. 06:14 < kanzure> even if overall it's all in the same visualization. 06:14 < gene> I am not talking about using this for SKDB 06:15 < gene> apply rigidchips to skdb would be stupid 06:15 < fenn> kanzure: yes of course 06:15 < fenn> that is how all of them work 06:15 < kanzure> not according to OPAL 06:15 < kanzure> http://opal.sf.net/ take a look at the list of features 06:15 < kanzure> "supports joints!" 06:15 < kanzure> "supports .. incline sensors!" 06:16 < fenn> irrelevant 06:16 < fenn> what i mean is the physics engine runs on the local computer 06:16 < kanzure> maybe it's just bad marketing and they don't know how it works 06:16 < fenn> so you can get discrepancies between two simulations across a laggy network 06:16 < kanzure> huh? I wasn't talking about anything like networking 06:16 < fenn> then what do you mean 'local simulation' 06:16 < kanzure> model.skdb.tar => ode.py, my.cad 06:17 < kanzure> ode.py being the code required for simulating this particular type of component or process 06:17 < fenn> which does what 06:17 < gene> cool 06:17 < kanzure> hell if I know what model.skdb.tar has 06:17 < fenn> no i mean, what is the output of the program 06:17 < kanzure> wouldn't that be defined by the unum metadata for input/output 06:17 < kanzure> the units metadata 06:18 < kanzure> sort of. there's different levels of even that metadata I guess 06:18 < fenn> i think we are talking about totally different things 06:18 < fenn> but i cant figure out what you're on about 06:18 < kanzure> maybe, it's because I don't have a strong example at the moment 06:18 < kanzure> okay, let's use biobricks as an example 06:18 < fenn> i'm talking about loading skdb data into a realtime physics sandbox 06:18 < kanzure> in the SBML files there were ODEs to describe the reactions 06:18 < kanzure> so these were attached to the individual SBML files 06:18 < kanzure> within the SBML model databases 06:19 < kanzure> now, to simulate many SBML models at once in a giant sandbox, your overall engine just goes through the list of actors 06:19 < kanzure> right? 06:19 < fenn> i have no idea about simulating chemical reactions 06:19 < gene> now that would be fun 06:19 < kanzure> that should be variable, whether it's chemical or mechanical or whatever 06:19 < fenn> seems like there would be a lot of diffusion and CFD calculations going on 06:19 < kanzure> sure. 06:20 < kanzure> (apparently not in hy3s/synbioss though. they are doing some simpler things it turns out) 06:20 < fenn> yeah because it's not relevant for 99% of the stuff chemists do 06:20 < fenn> but it does matter for figuring out whether your boat will rust or your engine will detonate or whatever 06:21 < kanzure> that's just the 'different levels of abstraction' stuff, ignroe that for what we're talking about at the moment. 06:21 < fenn> why would you want a realtime SBML simulation 06:22 < kanzure> that would be a one time simulation I guess. 06:22 < gene> why? 06:22 < kanzure> I mean, nothing to tick in the clock 06:22 < gene> realtime is really cool 06:22 < gene> just play around with rigidchips fenn 06:22 < gene> it's addicting 06:22 < kanzure> gene: I'm not sure you know what we're talking about. 06:22 < fenn> that's precisely why i havent downloaded it gene 06:23 < gene> people make will make incredibly models with incredibly advanced control systems in rigidchips 06:23 < gene> oops 06:23 < gene> people will make models with incredibly advanced control systems in rigidchips just for fun 06:23 < fenn> for gene only: http://tinyurl.com/5q88rh 06:24 < gene> you could get people to test out SKDB components over their lunch break 06:24 < fenn> except rigidchips sucks 06:24 < fenn> it doesnt even do physics 06:25 < fenn> so we wouldnt be "testing" anything 06:25 < gene> I know it doesn't 06:25 < gene> just take rigid chips as a model for development 06:25 < kanzure> then why .. 06:25 < fenn> dammit gene i came up with this idea first 06:25 < gene> it doesn't do magnetism and E-fields 06:25 < gene> ok 06:26 < gene> but I've got it to do gravity 06:26 < kanzure> oh that's depressing. In Superman 2, Superman flies the American flag back to the White House, where they show the fountains in free-frame while they wire him over the top of the scene. How depressing. 06:26 < kanzure> *freeze-frame 06:27 < fenn> heh this reminds me of paul http://tinyurl.com/5q88rh 06:27 < fenn> oops 06:27 < fenn> not that, DONT CLICK ON THE LINK 06:27 < fenn> this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HighGrow 06:29 < gene> heh 06:29 < gene> rigidchips is like that but more addictive 06:29 < gene> it is a level 10 memetic hazard 08:18 < wrldpc> Anyone know the name of the biotech restaurant in England? 10:51 < fenn> dammit all i can think about is iceland 11:53 < jm> are you out of money? ;-) 12:04 < kanzure_> the Vice Chair and Professor of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy, University Hospital Bonn 12:04 < kanzure_> has gotten back to me re: the TMS mailing list 12:04 < kanzure_> http://brainstimulation.info/ is the latest site. 12:05 < fenn> By STEPHANIE NANO 12:05 < fenn> must be a superhero 12:07 < kanzure_> "however, the initial plan was absolutely to follow up the Vestmannyjar fablab with one in Reykjavik" 12:07 < kanzure_> (10:13:00 PM) Elektronikwizard: the reason is 12:07 < kanzure_> (10:13:07 PM) Elektronikwizard: because Smari is from the Westman Islands 12:07 < kanzure_> (10:13:08 PM) Elektronikwizard: and also 12:07 < kanzure_> (10:13:22 PM) Elektronikwizard: because the Norway fab lab is in the middle of nowhere and that works extremely well 12:07 < kanzure_> (10:14:01 PM) Elektronikwizard: however, the initial plan was absolutely to follow up the Vestmannyjar fablab with one in Reykjavik 12:20 < kanzure_> ' 12:20 < kanzure_> Open source CRT wall holder. Can hold even the biggest heaviest CRT and is extremely stiff. Not adjustable. Requires only 3 holes in the wall. Provides means for storing computer cables.' 12:22 < kanzure_> http://ronja.twibright.com/atlas.php 12:22 < kanzure_> huh, it's on ronja 12:22 < kanzure_> ew, PNGs 12:22 < kanzure_> oh, but with DXF and qcad 12:51 < fenn> icky welds 12:51 < fenn> that could easily be done with the smoosh/drill/bolt method 12:53 < fenn> i'd like to make a rapid space frame cad system 12:53 < fenn> like you have a mesh to approximate and it puts vertices on the surface of that mesh, using as many identical pieces as possible 12:53 * fenn mumbles something about min-a-max 12:54 < fenn> i'm so putting that book online 13:16 < kanzure> What book? 13:16 < kanzure> also, that sounds like the animation skeleton substitution thingy, or the one that makes up the skeleton after viewing a mesh 13:17 < kanzure> wonder if blender has a module for that 13:17 < kanzure> I don't want to say 'yet' because I'm also not sure how popular this technique is 13:40 < fenn> book = "structure in nature is a strategy for design" 16:25 < mib_1kzstd> so my thinking is that the open money architecture allows for the transition into a gift economy, thoughts? 16:25 * mib_1kzstd is ybit 16:25 -!- mib_1kzstd is now known as ybit-school 16:26 < UtopiahGHML> open money architecture? 16:27 < ybit-school> www.openmoney.info 16:27 < ybit-school> it allows for anyone to create their own currency 16:28 < ybit-school> a currency by the open money definition is a formal information system that allows communities to see and interact with flows 16:29 < UtopiahGHML> how does it fit with existing social and technical infrastructures like VISA and such? 16:33 < ybit-school> well, if visa wanted to create their own community currency they could. and open money allows them to deploy their community on any social networking site 16:34 < ybit-school> they could create multiple currencies, it wouldn't have to be just a geographically based currency (regional, national, global) 16:36 < ybit-school> http://openmoney.info/sophia/index.html explains how there are different levels of flow in systems 16:38 < ybit-school> simply, it's yet another tool to bring about sane living 16:38 < UtopiahGHML> ok, I will read that later on, basically it's a framework to manage your currency within a community? 16:39 < ybit-school> right 16:40 < ybit-school> and i'm out 16:57 < kanzure-> Hello. 18:45 -!- gene_ is now known as gene 20:06 < gene> hello kanzure 20:18 < kanzure-> Hello. 20:26 < kanzure-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Kamen 20:26 < kanzure-> Kamen is currently single, claiming he's "married to his inventions." His longest relationship was with a woman by the name of K.C. Conners. His primary residence is a hexagonal, shed style mansion he has dubbed Westwind[2], located in Bedford, New Hampshire, just outside of the larger city of Manchester. 20:26 < kanzure-> The house has at least four different levels and is very eclectically conceived, with such things as hallways resembling mine shafts, 1960s novelty furniture, spiral staircases and secret passages, an observation tower, a fully-equipped machine shop, and a huge cast-iron steam engine which once belonged to Henry Ford built into the center atrium of the house (which is actually small in comparison), which Kamen has had converted into a Stirl 20:26 < kanzure-> Kamen owns two helicopters, which he regularly uses to commute to work, and has a hangar built into the house as well. 20:27 < kanzure-> His company, DEKA, annually creates intricate mechanical presents for him. Recently, the company created a robotic chess player, which is a mechanical arm attached to a chess board, as well as a vintage-looking computer with antique wood, and a converted typewriter as a keyboard. In addition, DEKA has recently received funding from DARPA to work on a brain-controlled prosthetic limb called the Luke Arm[3]. 20:27 < kanzure-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Dumpling_Island 20:27 < kanzure-> Huh, he seccedded. 20:28 < kanzure-> The island has a lighthouse and a replica of Stonehenge, and Kamen has invented a constitution, flag, and national anthem, as well as a navy (consisting of a single amphibious vehicle) for his "kingdom". 20:28 < kanzure-> Huh, he did FIRST robotics? 20:29 < kanzure-> "with his own currency in increments of pi" 20:31 < kanzure-> Teletrol Systems - Official website for Teletrol Systems, a Dean Kamen company that manufactures building automation technologies. 20:31 < kanzure-> http://www.teletrol.com/ 20:32 < kanzure-> also did Segway. Huh. Odd fellow. 20:58 < procto> you'd never heard of dean kamen? 20:58 < procto> dang 23:10 < kanzure> Woah. Scroll lock is like a retardation button. 23:11 < kanzure> Austin Metal & Iron. hrm. 23:11 < kanzure> Jim Shapiro 23:27 < xp_prg> kanzure you going to try to go to the synth bio sandpit on VA on 3/30/2009? 23:46 < ybit> paul fernhout could learn a lesson or two from me, wouldn't you say kanzure? ;) 23:47 < ybit> yes, i have stooped to idling the past few weeks, my apologies