--- Day changed Sun Nov 30 2008
00:52 < kanzure2> None of those are wireless. A 2x2 mm PCB would have to be etched out, and you'd have to wire up the induction coils yourself. Hrm.
00:52 < kanzure2> None of those are wireless. A 2x2 mm PCB would have to be etched out, and you'd have to wire up the induction coils yourself. Hrm.
01:03 < genehacher> kanzure you're back?
01:03 < genehacher> I mean kanzure2
01:06 < genehacher> yeah so?
01:06 < genehacher> it's cheap and it works
01:10 < genehacher> they also got some documentation
13:04 < Ghost`> Hello!
13:24 < Ghost`> I guess Kanzure is Bryan, right? Hi Bryan! :) Im Mark, I sent you an email a few days ago.. I`ve just joined the google group, and been reading some messages. I was jsut amazed yo know whats going on in Iceland!
13:25 < Ghost`> Its an awesome opportunity! And I think I can help..
13:40 < fenn> Ghost`: how do you intend to help? (with Iceland?)
13:43 < Ghost`> Im writing a reply to the emails.. I hope im not too naive ^_^
13:45 < Ghost`> but basically, If the people responsible for this area there, I would like to discuss with them (so we reach good ideas), about an interest of mine, for some years, which is how to design a better system. political/government system.
13:46 < fenn> i think they are quite fond of their parliament (they claim to have invented it after all)
13:46 < Ghost`> If Iceland can make a successful new "experiment", I think it could be "viral", and our ideals of open manufacturing might be helped
13:47 < Ghost`> okay.. i dont intend to revolutionize to the minimal detail..
13:47 < Ghost`> i guess it would go more as our ideals as open manufacturing goes.. staarting with basics, like food
13:48 < fenn> what does that have to do with government?
13:48 < Ghost`> actually, i believe any revolution that changes too much too fast have a very big probability of failure
13:48 < Ghost`> well, everything have to do with government
13:48 < fenn> only if you think government should have to do with everything :\
13:49 < Ghost`> i hope not, but its the fact in most countries, isnt it
13:50 < Ghost`> actually my ideas are more general, a system that frees the more time possible for the citizens to persue higher activities
13:51 < fenn> you are talking about the abolition of work
13:52 < Ghost`> not at all
13:52 < Ghost`> it could even be compulsory
13:53 < Ghost`> there can exist many systems that work, I just like to discuss systems that might work :)
13:54 < Ghost`> and i believe we are far from the abolition of work, and actually it might not even be desirable
13:54 < fenn> i beg to differ; work is the greatest evil in the history of humanity
13:55 < fenn> here is some background to what i mean: http://whywork.org/rethinking/whywork/abolition.html
13:56 < Ghost`> i think it depends on your definition of work, zero work might make people quite lazy, right?
13:56 < Ghost`> i mean, people are already very lazy with it
13:56 < fenn> people are lazy or not, regardless whether or not you hurt them
13:57 < fenn> fortunately we are at the point where we don't need humans to work anymore
13:57 < Ghost`> and working 1 hour in something you LIKE, but its necessary for the nation well being, IS work, and IS rewarding
13:57 < Ghost`> like I said, depends on your definition of work, my doesnt include hirting
13:57 < fenn> if it didnt hurt, we wouldnt need to pay people to do it
13:58 < Ghost`> i disagree.. there are lots of people that love their work
13:58 < fenn> however, if everyone's time wasnt totally consumed by work, they would have plenty of time to get things done that are normally filled by paid work
13:59 < Ghost`> they need to be paid because others require money to supply them with necessities, like food. May be because those dont like the produce food, but may just be a chain of "because i have to buy x and y", inercia
13:59 < fenn> nobody "requires" money
13:59 < Ghost`> i agree with that =)
14:00 < Ghost`> I agreed with the "totally wasted"
14:00 < Ghost`> thats why I said its a chain of inercia...
14:01 < fenn> it's a systemic problem, which is why experiments with systems (like possibly iceland) is worth trying
14:01 < Ghost`> imagine a system that people would do what they like, people that liked gardening and plants could produce the food... it IS work, but THEY WANT to do it, money is just an intermediary, they dont "require IT" but they require the ends by WHICH IT is needed.
14:02 < Ghost`> i agree with that, and believe i can help =)
14:02 < fenn> they dont require money, they require what? i dont follow you
14:03 < Ghost`> when you add an intermediary, like money, its not required per se, but the ends (its an intermediary for something) MAY be required, and as such, the intermediary IS required. though not in itself
14:04 < fenn> are you talking about resource allocation?
14:04 < fenn> or some kind of poorly defined reputation system
14:04 < Ghost`> hmm.. what u mean exactly, because i find talking about anything other than "resource allocation" is quite impossible.
14:05 < Ghost`> no need for reputation.
14:07 < fenn> i wonder if there is muck/fertilizer on the bottom of the ocean
14:10 < Ghost`> ok =) you want to discuss sources of resources =) (I wonder if my phrase is a bit redundant hehe).. I believe it has
14:10 < Ghost`> there are lots of vulcanic activity below sealevel
14:10 < Ghost`> and around those are lots of living organisms
14:11 < Ghost`> both are resourses of fertilizer..
14:11 < Ghost`> I was having an idea when reading the thread
14:12 < Ghost`> about building giant hydroponics.. as large as big buildings
14:12 < Ghost`> getting fertilizers (from sea for example)
14:13 < Ghost`> and generating the resources iceland doesnt (yet) have =)
14:14 < fenn> there isn't much sun since it's a northern country, so one big question is whether electric lighting from geothermal power is economically feasible
14:14 < fenn> of course self-sufficiency trumps economic feasibility in my mind
14:15 < fenn> oops, the electric lighting is for hydroponic greenhouses
14:16 < Ghost`> sorry language barrier (english not my native one =/)  , when you say "trump" it means if you`re self sufficient its a moot point if it is "economic feasible" ?
14:17 < fenn> i'm saying it's more important to stay alive than to worry about whether it's cheaper to import food or to grow it in greenhouses
14:17 < fenn> importing food is how they got into this mess
14:17 < Ghost`> if so, i believe too, but to a certain extent, after all, economics might involve more than currency =) you may be wasting more resouces/environment than possible.
14:18 < fenn> yes well, one might wonder whether it's appropriate to live on a barren rock in the middle of the ocean
14:18 < Ghost`> lol
14:19 < fenn> but i think this isolation allows for political freedom, for experimentation
14:20 < Ghost`> thats why i believe that we should help as much as we can, if they can make it, they would prove to the world .. err.. at the very least what humans can do when they dont try to dominate each other.. i guess i better say that than offend too much =)
14:21 < Ghost`> yes! thats awesome
14:26 < Ghost`> Thanks fenn, with your help i was a bit less naive in the email =)
14:47 -!- nsh- is now known as nsh
14:48 < kanzure> I am back.
14:53 < kanzure> bkero: Thanks for the link.
14:53 < kanzure> Ghost`: Hey there.
15:01 < kanzure> Heh. I have my sister hooked on fantastic contraption.
15:19 < kanzure_> For some reason I pittied Eli's motivation problems and replied with a link to http://autistics.org/library/inertia.html and his goons replied with a link to a post on "Created already in motion":
15:19 < kanzure_> " The phrase that once came into my mind to describe this requirement, is that a mind must be created already in motion.  There is no argument so compelling that it will give dynamics to a static thing.  There is no computer program so persuasive that you can run it on a rock. "
15:19 < kanzure_> http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/moral-ponens.html
15:20 < kanzure_> "
15:20 < kanzure_> This is why you can't argue fuzzleness into a rock."
15:39 < Ghost`> lol
15:40 < Ghost`> hi kanzure
15:41 < Ghost`> i dont quite follow what happened there, but.. a mind could have a mecanism of putting itself in motion.
15:41 < fenn> this is some sort of 'conservation of momentum' argument?
15:41 < fenn> what a waste of time
15:41 < kanzure> Not sure, fenn. 
15:42 < kanzure> it might just be a bad reference
15:42 < Ghost`> hehehe
15:44 < fenn> is "fuzzle" his new word for friendliness?
15:45 < kanzure> I wish I had a backup of his old "My mind is so fucked up" page on his site.
15:45 < Ghost`> hey Bryan, you guys do that thing about " depth 5 wikipedia readings" ?
15:46 < kanzure> Not on any particular schedule, Ghost`.
15:46 < fenn> only when absolutely necessary
15:46 < fenn> or when i have nothing better to do :\
15:47 < Ghost`> haha.. i thought it was like a book reading group, like every week or month, one topic would be chosen.. etc
15:47 < kanzure> it sometimes can feel like that I guess
15:47 < Ghost`> hmm.. there is the internet archive which you could try
15:47 < kanzure> Ghost`: he blocked it on robots.txt
15:47 < fenn> it's more like a realtime mailing list
15:48 < Ghost`> oh
15:48 < Ghost`> cool! i guess its better =)
15:48 < Ghost`> you guys are from where?
15:49 < Ghost`> i mean.. where u guys from? =)
15:49 < Ghost`> (bad english ^_^)
15:49 < kanzure> The internet. (or Austin)
15:50 < Ghost`> the internet? +) didnt get it
15:51 < kanzure> Yes, I grew up on the internet, much less any particular community in Austin.
15:51 < Ghost`> hahahaha... im kinda in this situation too =)
15:52 < fenn> bloomington, indiana
15:53 < fenn> how do you like brazil? i'm building a list of neat places to live
15:53 < Ghost`> but i guess we can process information a little better this way? 
15:53 < Ghost`> Well.. its nice
15:53 < Ghost`> no natural disasters... 
15:53 < Ghost`> though.. its popping up a bit... flood and rain...
15:54 < Ghost`> about a week or 2 ago, a large city was hit, about 100.000 people lots their houses... i never seen such a disaster so close.. normally only places with less infraestructure used to get hit
15:54 < fenn> ah, flood is easy, just make your house float
15:55 < Ghost`> hehe.. people didnt planned for it =)
15:55 < kanzure> gasp, like a boat?
15:55 < fenn> more like a sea platform
15:55 < Ghost`> entire mountains collapsed!
15:55 < fenn> just balloons on the supports really
15:55 < fenn> wait a minute, landslide is not the same as flood
15:56 < Ghost`> it may open the way for a more agriculture way of living =) but thats just my crazy ideas =)
15:56 < Ghost`> both happened
15:56 < Ghost`> the soil was so soaked, it collapsed
15:57 < Ghost`> in the plains, there was/is flood.. in the valleys/mountains the soil collapsed
15:58 < fenn> doesn't it flood every year?
15:58 < Ghost`> in the northern part of the country its actually the contrary... dryness (forgot the exact word in english)
15:59 < fenn> drought
15:59 < Ghost`> yes thanks!     .. like i said, it were more local, this time was a major city, I never seen it happened in such proportions
16:00 < Ghost`> but it doesnt have many natural disasters..
16:00 < Ghost`> no earthquakes
16:00 < Ghost`> ciclones/hurricanes
16:01 < Ghost`> (though that flood was caused by one, in the atlantic, and it was pretty close a few years ago, but didnt classify as in-land)
16:01 < Ghost`> its a pretty free country..
16:01 < Ghost`> though some places are a bit violent, but normally you dont have problems, i for one was never even robbed
16:01 < kanzure_> I was browsing around for movies to watch yesterday on the cable service (order-movies-on-demand stuff), and found this ad:
16:01 < kanzure_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSpCWJnnWVI
16:02 < kanzure_> I laughed pretty hard :/
16:02 < Ghost`> let me see
16:02 < Ghost`> a more serious problem is corruption...
16:03 < Ghost`> but even so the country seems to manage (prosperity-wise) to develop
16:04 < Ghost`> it have sun, which i love.. and it can have cold if you like... 
16:04 < Ghost`> i like cold too, but i think its a bit more limiting in some situations, but its better in others situations..
16:06 < fenn> makes more sense to migrate with the seasons
16:07 < Ghost`> HUAHAHAHAHAHA
16:07 < Ghost`> insane.. those japanese people! =)
16:07 < Ghost`> yes.. migration.. i would pretty much follow the sun hehe
16:08 < kanzure> Hrm. I have to read Hofstadter's GEB today. I guess at least it isn't penrose.
16:08 < Ghost`> but its a quite free country.. not many conflicts, or censorship.. etc
16:09 < Ghost`> Man! I always wanted to read that book!
16:09 < Ghost`> But I could never find to download hehehe
16:09 < fenn> one moment please
16:10 < kanzure> Ghost`: our combined book archive is in the 50+ GB range at this point
16:10 < kanzure> 90+ if you count my copy of Nature
16:10 < Ghost`> weeeeeeeeeeeeee! \o/
16:10 < kanzure> yes :)
16:10 < Ghost`> I also got quite a big collection hehehe..
16:10 < kanzure> Can you link me to an index of it?
16:10 < fenn> http://fennetic.net//pub/irc/hofstadter_geb.pdf
16:10 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/
16:10 < Ghost`> i got lots of videos too, TTC... 
16:11 < fenn> Ghost`: that link was for you
16:11 < Ghost`> well.. the last few DVDs I didnt have time to catalogue... but the first 200 or so are catalogued..
16:12 < Ghost`> though books i didnt had the patience, because they are so many.. i would just put under general topics..
16:12 < Ghost`> let me check it out =)
16:12 < Ghost`> Thanks fenn!!!!!!!!!!!
16:12 < kanzure> fenn: new stuff:
16:12 < fenn> aroo
16:12 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/pinky_and_the_brain/
16:12 < kanzure> narf
16:13 < Ghost`> hahahah nice!!! i just download the complete series... 
16:13 < kanzure> I also have Dexter's lab on there too, if you look.
16:14 < Ghost`> i never aimed to download much of movies, or stuff most people download... but after i completed my collection of ttc videos, courses, language courses, i figured i would get some classic stuff =) like stuff that i watched as a kid etc
16:14 < Ghost`> or classic movies, like matrix, lord of the rings... that would be worthywhile to get, but its not priority =)
16:15 < Ghost`> i think the only, more important, stuff, I would like to get, is all dictionary of all languages there is (i have some, but they are kinda scattered, the goal would be make a sourceforge project to centralise this effort)
16:15 < fenn> i think it's more important to replicate/archive "classic" books in many places
16:15 < fenn> than just one video
16:16 < fenn> yes language dictionaries too
16:16 < Ghost`> AND the wikipedia... one snapshot would be easy enough, but no images is boring =)
16:16 < fenn> one daydream was to get google to add a google books node in iceland-utopia
16:16 < kanzure> Ghost`: with images it's only 150 GB or something
16:16 < fenn> with full access and no copyright bullshit of course
16:17 < Ghost`> yes yes.. i have the gutemberg project.. and many many books.. even some "bogus" like occult coolection hehe.. i think its important at least for historical reasons, and maybe fictional entertainment or inspiration... 
16:17 < kanzure> I obsessively/rabidly archive everything anyway, so I usually don't even give a reason. But whatever. :)
16:18 < fenn> it seems the main server on #bookwarez is gone for good
16:18 < nsh> there must be information immortality through redundance.
16:18 < kanzure> fenn, did you see my om email re: origami? the latest one.
16:18 < fenn> i dont really get the whole irc warez scene
16:18 < kanzure> the one from this weekend.
16:19 < kanzure> I used to get the warez scene
16:19 < Ghost`> I know, its managable, BUT they dont allow to download the complete thing now, so I would have to use a spider or something, and i didnt have time to study the consequences.. because they probably would limit (temporarily ban your ip, if you download stuff too fast)
16:19 < kanzure> recently I returned to it to offer Nature, but nobody wanted it
16:19 < kanzure> I don't know how they publish anything good if nobody wants to take data
16:19 < kanzure> Ghost`: no, there's a place to get the full wikipedia dump
16:19 < Ghost`> haha fenn! that would be awesome (google idea)
16:19 < kanzure> hold on..
16:20 < Ghost`> HAHAHAHA Kanzure! we`re on the same note then! I archive verything! =)
16:20 < kanzure_> 'As of May 17, 2007, Wikipedia disabled or neglected all viable bulk downloads of images including torrent trackers. Therefore, there is no way to download image dumps other than scraping Wikipedia pages up or using Wikix, which converts a database dump into a series of scripts to fetch the images.'
16:20 < kanzure_> Oh shit.
16:20 < kanzure_> What the fuck.
16:20 < Ghost`> Im really glad I `ve found similar minded people!
16:20 < Ghost`> dang... visitors!
16:20 < fenn> Ghost`: the idea was to have a sort of "duty free" stop at the airport, which is connected to our WSLE, and travelers from london/new york would stop by and patronize our casinos or restaurants or whatever while they are there
16:21 < fenn> kanzure: are you sure about that?
16:21 < Ghost`> nsh! yes!!
16:22 < kanzure> fenn: The wikipedia thing? See that 'As of May' quote..
16:22 < kanzure> but really, *poke* origami *poke*
16:22 < fenn> okay okay origami
16:22 < kanzure> it's really really neat, did you go get the treemaker yet? :)
16:22 < kanzure> and watch the tedtalk
16:22 < kanzure> and take over the world while you're at it.
16:23 < fenn> the lobster is not very impressive, unless it's auto-generated
16:23 < kanzure_> http://www.langorigami.com/science/treemaker/treemaker5.php4
16:23 < fenn> i mean it's way better than i can do, but there are better ones out there
16:23 < kanzure_> it's mostly auto-generated.
16:24 < kanzure_> the input to tree-maker is a 'shadow' of the finished origami structure
16:24 < kanzure_> but
16:24 < Ghost`> fenn.. LMAO!!! HAHAHA
16:24 < kanzure_> I think we can do some 3D->origami stuff
16:24 < kanzure_> http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/robert_lang_folds_way_new_origami.html
16:24 < Ghost`> [14:20] <kanzure_> Oh shit.
16:24 < Ghost`> [14:20] <kanzure_> What the fuck.
16:24 < Ghost`> You mean you didnt know about that??
16:24 < Ghost`> yes... right after i decided to get it =(
16:24 < kanzure> I'll have to order the DVDs I guess. "20 disc set" I guess?
16:25 < Ghost`> but i think you got it covered =)
16:26 < Ghost`> what about the scripts you mentioned? it seems good enough for me
16:26 < fenn> why did they turn off torrents? that doesnt make sense
16:26 < kanzure> What scripts?
16:27 < fenn> (and arent there rogue torrent servers everywhere also)
16:27 < Ghost`> whats wrong with the warez scene?
16:27 < kanzure> They didn't take 40 GB of Nature.
16:28 < Ghost`> LOL
16:28 < Ghost`> I would =)
16:28 < kanzure> I need somebody to seed it up on a random machine. I don't want to be traced really..
16:28 < fenn> i think treemaker is a cad tool
16:28 < Ghost`> by the way.. since i`ve just found like-minded people, maybe you have a book a stupid dvd of mine seems to have corrupted =(
16:28 < kanzure> oh?
16:29 < kanzure> fenn: have you used it?
16:29 < fenn> i guess it's all sort of the same in the end though
16:29 < fenn> no
16:29 < Ghost`> I can do it.. though.. 40 G is kinda expensive for me right now
16:29 < Ghost`> and there are anonimizers doesnt it?
16:29 < Ghost`> i would like to use if so =)
16:29 < kanzure> Ghost`: it's on /books/ btw. You have to wait for it to load though, there's an 8 MB index.
16:30 < Ghost`> on the link?
16:30 < fenn> is 40GB compressed?
16:30 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/
16:30 < kanzure> gah, haven't compressed it yet
16:30 < kanzure> I started it the last time you asked
16:30 < kanzure> and gave up
16:30 < fenn> try a sample and see
16:30 < kanzure> let me go do that.
16:30 < fenn> sometimes pdf's are compressed and zip/rar/tgz won't help much
16:31 < kanzure> Ok, it's zipping up in the background.
16:31 < kanzure> fenn: I was thinking about an algorithm for converting a 3D mesh into an origami crease pattern
16:31 < kanzure> since it's all just quads, you can start to progressively 'unfold' the object.
16:31 < fenn> i was thinking about an algorithm for converting a 3d mesh into atoms... the problem is getting the atoms to go where you want them
16:32 < kanzure> huh?
16:32 < kanzure> into atoms?
16:32 < fenn> nevemind
16:33 < fenn> huh linux download for treemaker, tha's ice
16:33 < Ghost`> huahaha
16:35 < Ghost`> just before I go, I`ll leave it loading, but also leave the name of the book: "Drawing to see" by Nathan Goldstein
16:35 < Ghost`> the data seems to be on the edge of the disc, and the drive is having trouble accessing it...
16:36 < Ghost`> which has brought me to believe that trying to minimize wasted disc space might be a bad thing if you abuse it to the byte =)
16:36 < Ghost`> I will try to find a newer drive, (which wasnt abused) and try to access the data =)
16:36 < fenn> don't have it
16:37 < Ghost`> lol
16:37 < Ghost`> oh.. the book
16:37 < Ghost`> =) well.. its not that important.. I requested at demonoid.. lets see if they can find it..
16:37 < Ghost`> 44 pages out of 244 are damaged... 18% =(
16:37 < Ghost`> well
16:38 < fenn> hmm 630kB/s at my parents house
16:38 < Ghost`> I must study Artificial Intelligence now, exam on thursday, and this teacher is .. err.. dont know english word.. if you mistake a pixel he zeroes your WHOLE work <o>
16:38 < fenn> and they complain that it's slow
16:39 < Ghost`> WOW
16:39 < Ghost`> hahaha
16:39 < fenn> i think comcast does some kind of weird rate limiting thing
16:39 < Ghost`> later guys!
16:39 -!- Ghost` is now known as Ghost-IA
16:39 < Ghost-IA> fenn.. somehow the pdf seems corrupted
16:40 < Ghost-IA> later! :)
16:44 < fenn> oops it was a .djvu file
16:44 < fenn> i renamed it .pdf without thinking
16:49 < Ghost-IA> oh.. thanks, i will try that
16:49 -!- Ghost-IA is now known as Ghost-AI
16:49 < Ghost-AI> got the initials in portuguese hehe
16:49 < Ghost-AI> later ppl.
16:52 < Ghost-AI> it worked, thanks!!!!!
17:06 < Ghost-AI> hmm.. I think i had that book stored though.. lol .. But I looked it for so long that I didnt figure I got it... just found a torrent..
17:06 < Ghost-AI> im still not sure =) thanks!
18:56 < kanzure> Hrm. I wonder in what dir I put the spiral generator.
19:06 < bkero> kanzure: no problem
19:14 < kanzure> Times that I wonder: "error: cvs not currently installed". :/
19:20 < kanzure_> http://www.cmake.org/pipermail/insight-users/2004-March/007582.html <- suggests it's vtkWriter that I want, but then what's vtkImageImport doing here? Doesn't look like it's dependent on the rendered objects that VTK has in the pipeline..
19:21 < kanzure_> http://www.topopt.dtu.dk/agh/sundance/exStokes2D_1in_4out.py.php3 <- ah, writer.addMesh() 
19:21 < kanzure_> http://www.vtk.org/doc/nightly/html/classvtkWriter.html
19:22 < kanzure_> hrm, addMesh isn't on there
19:23 < kanzure_> True aha -> http://osdir.com/ml/lib.vtk.user/2002-09/msg00562.html
19:24 < kanzure_> points= vtkPoints(); points.InsertNextPoint(x,y,z), torus = vtkPolyData, torus.SetPoints(points), writer=vtkPolyDataWriter(), writer.SetFileName("testouput.vtk"), writer.SetInput(torus), writer.Write()
19:31 < genehacher> you're back
19:31 < genehacher> so what do you think about the $80 MEA?
19:31 < kanzure> Looks interesting. Like I said, it'd take some work to figure out the PCB that we'd need to make the induction coils and wireless interface.
19:32 < kanzure> From what I could tell those were the type that they expect you to wire up with a physical cord-like system
19:32 < kanzure> which kind of sucks :) unless you're doing open frog skull stuff. Not sure how much we can get done with that though.
19:32 < kanzure> If you give me the link again, I'll go add it to ~bbishop/docs/neuro/
19:33 < genehacher> this isn't made to be wireless
19:33 < kanzure> Right, this should just be the MEA part
19:33 < kanzure> Are you subscribed to the mea-users mailing list?
19:33 < kanzure> it's on yahoo groups
19:35 < genehacher> no
19:35 < genehacher> I don't use an MEA
19:35 < kanzure> Neither do they, they're mostly researchers, but a few good professors are on there
19:35 < kanzure> like Steve Porter or something
19:35 < kanzure> over at gatech.edu
19:37 < genehacher> heh
19:40 < kanzure> gatech and michigan for neurotech. :)
19:41 < genehacher> but they do have some info on their setup
19:42 < genehacher> this is the type of thing you'd use for a brainbot
19:42 < genehacher> you know like warwick made?
19:42 < kanzure> Hrm, I was thinking that for experimental brainbot things, like on http://heybryan.org/2008-08-15.html , you should just use large (manually-assembled) electrodes
19:43 < kanzure> yeah, that's what 2008-08-15.html talks about
19:43 < kanzure> the reason why I was thinking of using bulky electrodes was that it already costs enough to get the chemicals to maintain the neuron culture
19:43 < kanzure> although I wasn't aware of pricing options on MEAs.
19:46 < kanzure_> ooh, maybe I'll use vtkDataSetWriter.SafeDownCast()
20:39 < kanzure> I need an object that has method addActor() but that also compatible with either vtkDataSetWriter, vtkPolyDataWriter, vtkRectilinearGridWriter, vtkStructuredGridWriter, vtkStructuredPointsWriter, or vtkUnstructuredGridWriter. bleh.
21:17 < kanzure_> http://www.transforum.net/m.cgi?num=2895
22:04 -!- Ghost-AI is now known as Ghost`
22:24 < kanzure_> after wasting some time on fantasticcontraption: http://public.kitware.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/vtk/graphics/examplesPython/writers.py
22:24 < kanzure_> STL output. 
22:24 < kanzure_> Not sure if VTK is converting the input data into all-vector-format for STL or if it's just the stuff-that-is-already-represented-as-vectors.
22:24 < kanzure_> uh
22:24 < kanzure_> s/vectors/triangles/g
22:33 < fenn> why are you messing with vtk?
22:35 < kanzure> input file to openfoam.
22:35 < fenn> just to make an stl file of the filter?
22:36 < kanzure> well, I thought the input file is supposed to be vtk
22:36 < kanzure> but now that I think about it I really have no clue
22:36  * kanzure checks docs
22:37 < fenn> looks like the input format to openfoam is some kind of c-ish specialized language
22:37 < kanzure_> uhh
22:38 < kanzure_> http://openfoam.cfd-online.com/forum/messages/1/3208.html?1160764351
22:38 < kanzure_> yeah, wtf is this shit?
22:38 < kanzure_> I mean, it's nice that I get to specify vertices
22:38  * fenn is looking at http://www.opencfd.co.uk/openfoam/doc/basicFileFormat.html#x18-930004.2
22:38 < kanzure_> but does this mean it wants to compile my input file? just for the data structs?
22:38 < kanzure_> btw, geeze thanks for pipping up at the last minute when I find something that works for vtk output
22:38  * kanzure_ rolls eyes :)
22:39 < fenn> any time :)
22:39 < fenn> i believe i mentioned at the beginning that vtk wasn't worth the trouble
22:40 < fenn> but then apparently you found some documentation, which i never did
22:40 < kanzure> the documentation sucks. it's just a class structure dump
22:40 < fenn> ok, that's not documentation
22:40 < kanzure> most of what I've found is from example files and people whinning, much like myself, on vtkusers
22:40 < fenn> they want you to buy their book
22:41 < kanzure_> in fact I broke down and emailed them :( http://www.vtk.org/pipermail/vtkusers/2008-November/098582.html
22:41 < kanzure_> rawr linkdumps.
22:42 < fenn> in vtk, addActor lots of times is probably wrong
22:42 < fenn> it's all about pipelines
22:43 < fenn> i tried to make lots of cubes and it went dog slow, even though i knew it was possible somehow
22:43 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/matchstick.png
22:43 < fenn> ^^ slow
22:44 < kanzure> but isn't this just an abstraction on top of the OpenGL abstraction?
22:44 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/ExtractGeometry.png  <- super fast
22:44 < kanzure> cramming stuff to the gpu shouldn't be this difficult
22:45 < fenn> then jepler came along and wrote a program that did what we were trying to do all week in like two hours: http://axis.unpythonic.net/01169521961
22:46 < fenn> so, i'm sort of bitter at vtk
22:46 < kanzure> what is ngc?
22:46 < fenn> g-code for cnc machines
22:47 < fenn> this is kinda neat http://axis.unpythonic.net/01169689661
22:48 < fenn> i've been using new mac computers at my parents house.. god i dont know how people can put up with this crap
22:49 < kanzure> I was actually going for a cross section plotter, I had the classes, equations and everything ready to go, was just trying to write the renderer (well, which I did before I integrated the equations + classes together)
22:50 < fenn> and then you print out on your homemade Rapid Prototyping machine?
22:51 < kanzure> Huh?
22:51 < kanzure> in conclusion, I've done nothing
22:51 < fenn> only use i could think of for cross section plotting
22:51 < kanzure> oh, uh, I could just turn off the top of the cross sections and then export that to a 3D file format and then convert to gcode, no?
22:51 < fenn> you have equations for the surface of this spiral thingy?
22:51 < kanzure> the cross-sections aren't true cross sections, they have a depth
22:51 < kanzure> yeah
22:51  * kanzure looks
22:52 < Ghost`> gpu? Im going to learn CUDA real soon.
22:52 < Ghost`> is that related to what u want to do?
22:53 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/bioreactor/membraneless_filtration/gnuplot_spiral_parametric.txt
22:53 < kanzure_> the bottom stuff, after the newline separator, is what makes gnuplot plot it properly
22:54 < fenn> undefined variable: t
22:54 < fenn> i must be calling gnuplot wrong
22:54 < kanzure_> um, maybe also the x = and y= stuff
22:55 < kanzure_> sorry, that newline isn't the separator I guess
22:55 < kanzure_> that's what I get for cramming multiple things into a single file
22:55 < kanzure_> *x=
22:57 < fenn> hmm it pulled a DOS on me.. blinks on the screen for half a second
22:58 < kanzure_> gnuplot tends to be fairly reliable for me.
22:58 < fenn> gnuplot -persist
22:58 < fenn> ok, pretty basic spiral
22:59 < kanzure_> well, considering now what data openfoam is wanting, I'm tempted to just do this all from gnuplot
22:59 < kanzure_> gnuplot has an export data set feature
22:59 < kanzure_> oh, nevermind. I'm thinking of its ability to plot from an input array.
22:59 < kanzure_> and even if it did, I'd still need a 3D visualization at some point
23:00 < fenn> doesnt openfoam do that?
23:01 < kanzure_> oh. vtk input to openfoam because there's this 'mesher' app that comes with openfoam. I vaguely remember now ..
23:01 < kanzure_> but anyway, yes, it does, but I refer to the need for a 3D file format so that eventually I can throw it at the cnc or laser cutter
23:01 < kanzure_> via a gcode converter.
23:02 < kanzure_> urhm, "it does" as in "somehow a visualization comes up from a numeric dataset", perhaps it was from mayavi2
23:03 < fenn> yes mayavi would be perfect for that
23:03 < kanzure_> "Mayavi2 seeks to provide easy and interactive visualization of 3D data. "
23:03 < kanzure_> yay.
23:03 < fenn> but i figured it would all be built in to openfoam
23:04 < fenn> lang sure has a crapload of origami bugs
23:04 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-03-05_OpenFOAM_works.png
23:04 < kanzure_> do you have logs from 2008-03-05?
23:04 < kanzure_> ah, I was using paraview
23:04 < kanzure_> and the output file was apparently cavity_100.vtk in that example
23:05 < fenn> no, my logs start at march 22 i think
23:07 < kanzure_> when I sat down a few weeks ago I was thinkintg I'd write some origami software for myself, thinking it would be rather easy (after hearing about webEOS), and while webEOS is hardly the same thing as TreeMaker, Lang's "20 years to get TreeMaker where it is today" is evidence of how terribly I am at estimating how long it takes to do anything.
23:08 < fenn> ah well it's simple
23:08 < fenn> take the estimated time, multiply by five, and raise to the next unit of measurement
23:08 < fenn> so 2 hours would end up taking 10 days
23:09 < kanzure_> spooky
23:09 < kanzure_> I'm on schedule
23:09 < fenn> of course you have to take into account hofstadter's law
23:10 < fenn> good lord, this doesnt seem possible: http://www.langorigami.com/art/gallery/gallery.php4?name=rose
23:11 < kanzure> over thanksgiving I tried a simple crease pattern with the family (my mom oodled about how it was "just like your great grandfather! gasp!") and failed terribly
23:11 < kanzure> it was supposed to be a dog
23:11 < kanzure> but turned into a crumpled piece of paper
23:12 < kanzure> 2D dog, mind you, not any of this 3D voodoo wizardry magic nonsense
23:12 < kanzure> referencefinder would be helpful if it allowed tmd5 files as input (the output of treemaker, the crease pattern information and such)
23:12 < kanzure> but instead it just lets you input random points, and then tells you how to fold to those points (or lines)
23:13 < kanzure> regardless of what other folds you have available to get there (since it will suggest to you something that doesn't happen to be in-line-with the crease pattern you're supposedly following)
23:56 < kanzure> bleh. Another anti-transhuman video has shown up, "Age of Transitions"
23:56 < kanzure> I wish I could punch the WTA
23:57 < kanzure> this video points out that "the WTA wants to solve the problems of the masses" and then goes through all sorts of insinuations to show how it's "eugenics all over again"
23:57 < kanzure> the WTA idiots are still making it a people thing
23:57 < kanzure> "waah, you're keeping us out of jobs! how will we live!" complains the video.
23:58  * kanzure sighs