--- Day changed Thu Dec 04 2008
00:03 < kanzure_> http://www.stallman.org/articles/jinnetic.html Jinnetic engineering
00:03 < kanzure_> looks like Stallman has a longevity wish going on there.
00:14 < fenn> i think he was just trying to show how people never wish for the right things
00:14 < fenn> or that we're expected to be greedy and selfish
00:49 < kanzure> wait, is Lessig about to become Obama's CTO?
00:58 < bkero> wtf
00:58 < bkero> no
00:58 < bkero> way
00:58 < kanzure> ah, he's just on the suspect list
00:58 < bkero> That's my dream.  COuld never happem.
00:58 < bkero> Happen
00:58 < kanzure> Yeah, I'm still kind of freaking out.
00:58 < bkero> If that happens I would actually throw a fancy party.
00:59 < kanzure> I'd fly up to attend it.
01:00 < bkero> If he were actually appointed I would have complete confidence in the administration.
03:17 < kanzure_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y245ma68BFc&feature=related heh, House or Walter? I need my dose of mad scientists I guess.
04:22 < kanzure_> it's interesting to see failures
04:22 < kanzure_> http://fantasticcontraption.com/?designId=4714400
04:27 < kanzure_> http://fantasticcontraption.com/?designId=4710010 heh, ridiculous but works
04:28 < kanzure_> http://fantasticcontraption.com/?designId=4710009 <- I solved this level with a crawler, but this is an interesting idea.
04:29 < kanzure_> http://fantasticcontraption.com/?designId=4710006 train-like apparatus.
04:33 < kanzure_> http://fantasticcontraption.com/?designId=1000000 elegance :(
04:34 < kanzure_> http://fantasticcontraption.com/?designId=1000001 ironically the next one is named "not elegant"
04:35 < kanzure_> http://fantasticcontraption.com/?designId=1000004 haha, "1,000,000th!"
04:40 < kanzure_> http://fantasticcontraption.com/?designId=1000012 took forever
05:32 < xp_prg> help I need a cnc lathe planning animation!
05:35 < kanzure> animation?
05:35 < kanzure> like a GIF?
05:35 < kanzure> or an MPEG?
05:39 < xp_prg> an;ything hurry!
05:40 < kanzure> what is a planning animation?
05:57 < ybit> xp_prg: what time frame are we talking about... how quickly are you wanting this animation? 
05:58 < ybit> is there a countdown?
06:01 < ybit> a countdown would help me to find it
06:01 < gene> kanzure we need to talk
06:01 < gene> about the project
06:03 < kanzure> ?
06:03 < gene> yeah link me to the part repositry
06:03 < kanzure> huh?
06:03 < kanzure> the VOICED part repo?
06:03 < gene> I need to dimension the new trigger
06:03 < kanzure> http://repository.designengineeringlab.org/
06:03 < gene>  no
06:03 < kanzure> oh, the me302 stuff
06:03 < gene> for the project
06:03 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/me302/project/
06:05 < kanzure> the new trigger is the latest update
06:05 < kanzure> click 'by date' to order the list in terms of when the files were added
06:06 < kanzure> so the latest one would be the .. latest.
06:07 < gene> should I just use the old one
06:07 < kanzure> No, the new one is in there.
06:14  * ybit has been falling head over heels for ruby this past week
06:14 < ybit> so far, it hasn't shown me the love back ;)
06:14 < ybit> open rTMS, details. how's it going?
06:15 < ybit> openstim progress is still slow from what i gather
06:15 < kanzure> openstim is dead
06:15 < ybit> and that's the reason
06:15 < ybit> no wone't heard baem
06:15 < kanzure> open rTMS could use some line integral scripts at the moment
06:15 < ybit> back from them*
06:15 < kanzure> to simulate different coils
06:16 < ybit> what's the reason it died?
06:17 < kanzure> People stopped editing the wiki I gather.
06:17 < kanzure> Ed Boyden and Superkuh were the only two that I know behind it that had anything going for either of them.
06:18 < gene> Superku?
06:19 < ybit> he's in #neuroscience iirc
06:19 < kanzure> and everywhere else
06:19 < ybit> i should be idling in more channels now that i have a stable comp.
06:19 < ybit> go me
06:19 < kanzure> Superkuh is "one of us" I guess.
06:19 < kanzure> gene: He had an rTMS setup going at one point.
06:20 < ybit> oi wrldpc. what's been going on w/ you?
06:20 < kanzure> He lives in a basement with a billion monitors and doesn't sleep.
06:20 < ybit> interesting, is this on his blog?
06:20 < gene> oh yeah
06:20 < kanzure> ybit: No.
06:20 < kanzure> http://superkuh.ath.cx/
06:20 < kanzure> He published his time logs though, and basically he never sleeps.
06:20 < ybit> thanks, i didn't have the link saved
06:21 < kanzure> A ratio of time in a PDF reader to browsing to gaming was like 10000 to 1 :p
06:21 < ybit> sadly, i haven't gamed in over two months.
06:22 < gene> I don't sleep, haven't gamed that much either
06:22 < kanzure> ybit: I'm working on a fantastic contraption clone of sorts, though more as a design-thing than a game-thing.
06:22 < kanzure> So you'll be addicted in no time.
06:23 < ybit> i've been addicted to this transition to a gift culture the past month
06:23 < gene> but I must say one thing if you have an Nvidia graphics card install a stereo driver and get some 3d glasses
06:23 < gene> it will blow your mind
06:23 < ybit> a contraption clone of sorts, do explain or link :)
06:24 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/fantastic/
06:24 < ybit> heh, i do have the nvidia card and 3d glasses!
06:24 < kanzure> Check the third screenshot.
06:24 < ybit> ah, i saw a screenshot of this earlier today, what is it.. 2d? what's the use...
06:25 < kanzure> besides hooking you on making useless 2D mechanical linkings?
06:25 < ybit> it reminded me of a hack from some physics game that was release this year
06:25 < kanzure> ?
06:25 < ybit> it was featured on /.
06:26 < ybit> hmm, lemme see if i can find it
06:26 < ybit> phunland.com
06:27 < kanzure> I'll check it out soon.
06:27 < ybit> where's the 3d glory i was promised gene! :)
06:27 < kanzure> 3D is possible, but for some reason I like 2D for starters
06:27 < ybit> maybe my glasses are broken ;)
06:28 < gene> 3d physics is more fun than 2d physics anyday
06:28 < kanzure> not if people suck at navigating 3D cameras
06:28 < gene> are you using red blue 3d glasses?
06:28 < gene> I don't
06:29 < gene> really kanzure you ought to try rigidchips
06:29 < kanzure> I don't know why you think saying it over and over again will make up for the things we discussed earlier
06:37 < gene> btw kanzure you know the ME app server has basically the same thing as that program you wrote except with more components
06:38 < kanzure> which program?
06:38 < gene> real model or something like that
06:39 < kanzure> No, which program of mine
06:43 < gene> the fantastic contraption thing
06:44 < xp_prg> well I met with them
06:46 < kanzure> And?
06:50 < xp_prg> couple of old guys
06:50 < xp_prg> not that impressed really
06:50 < xp_prg> they just didn't grasp what I was saying very well
06:50 < kanzure> I don't know why you were talking with them anyway.
06:51 < kanzure> what were you saying?
06:51 < xp_prg> talking about 3d organism planning via protein dispersion gene expression
06:51 < kanzure> But you don't know how to do that.
06:51 < xp_prg> well nobody does but I'm going to try
06:51 < kanzure> how?
06:52 < xp_prg> prolog inference from 3d position of cells down the dna
06:52 < gene> what
06:52 < gene> is that
06:52 < kanzure> 3D position isn't encoded like that
06:52 < kanzure> look into amorphous computation and you will see.
06:52 < xp_prg> ya it is
06:52 < xp_prg> hedgehog genes control 3d forms
06:54 < kanzure> cells aren't downstream DNA since DNA is within cells in these situations anyway
06:54 < gene> yeah they do
06:54 < kanzure> You mean HoX stuff?
06:54 < xp_prg> kanzure dna controls everything, don't know what your talking about
06:55 < kanzure> well you just told me "prolog inference from 3d position of cells down the dna"
06:55 < kanzure> 3d position of cells down the dna -> cells are not downstream dna
06:55 < xp_prg> kanzure I will infer what the dna is for a cell in 3d space
06:55 < kanzure> what?
06:56 < kanzure> there's no absolute xyz coordinate system in dna
06:56 < xp_prg> nevermind
06:56 < kanzure> again, amorphous computing
06:56 < gene> are you trying to take a 3d model of whatever it is write some DNA put it in cells and get the 3d model made from cells basically? 
06:56 < gene> yup
06:56 < xp_prg> yes gene
06:57 < kanzure> how are you doing this without an absolute coordinate system
06:57 < xp_prg> geospatial protein cascades
06:57 < gene> why use a coordinate system
06:57 < gene> or wait
06:57 < kanzure> gene: because he's claiming he knows how to put things in certain locations
06:57 < kanzure> certain means 'defined'
06:57 < kanzure> as in, coords
06:58 < gene> maybe signal concentration for a source is a coordinate system
06:58 < kanzure> well, what one group at MIT did was something kind of like that
06:58 < kanzure> it was called a gradient programming language
06:58 < xp_prg> kanzure wow really?!
06:58 < xp_prg> where is that?!
06:58 < kanzure> but the problem is that you can't send that many bits
06:58 < xp_prg> is that opensource?
06:58 < kanzure> and so it's useless
06:58 < kanzure> no
06:58 < kanzure> because they're jerks
06:59 < xp_prg> lame
06:59 < kanzure> well it also doesn't work
06:59 < xp_prg> gene knows what I want to do
06:59 < kanzure> oh, I know what you want to do
06:59 < kanzure> but I'm not convinced it works
06:59 < kanzure> remember, this was my summer research grant
06:59 < gene> output signal molecules at one point signals decrease as with distance from the source by inverse square law
06:59 < kanzure> sure.
07:00 < gene> so then what happens when you have multiple sources
07:00 < gene> they modify the coordinate system
07:01 < kanzure> I still don't understand how you're assuming you're able to differentiate from directionality at a single node
07:01 < kanzure> that's usually what they try to do, where there's some sort of 'chemotaxis' going in one direction
07:01 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Amorphous_computation
07:02 < xp_prg> kanzure its the exact same way gps positioning works *sigh*
07:02 < kanzure> gps uses an exact coordinate system
07:02 < kanzure> biology does not.
07:02 < gene> well I wouldn't count on using exact coordinates
07:02 < xp_prg> yes it does
07:03 < kanzure> wtf? proof?
07:03 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Coordination 
07:03 < kanzure_> see my notes on chemical axial positioning systems
07:04 < gene> the only thing you can get in a single source system is distance from source
07:04 < kanzure_> http://www.swiss.csail.mit.edu/projects/amorphous/papers/aim1665.pdf
07:04 < gene> and your distance sensors are noisy
07:05 < willPow3r>  http://FantasticContraption.com/?designId=4716788
07:05 < willPow3r> fuck yeah
07:06 < gene> no the correct meme is:
07:06 < kanzure> willPow3r: Is that you?
07:06 < gene> seaking fuck yeah!
07:06 < willPow3r> yep
07:07 < kanzure> Nice.
07:07 < gene> that's what I was trying to make in real life
07:09 < kanzure> clearly biological systems are constructing 3D shapes, but this is from algorithms embedded in protein physics and signal reactions, not necessarily a directly analytical programming API
07:10 < kanzure> although I'm sure it would be nice to imagine that you could just ask a bacterial cell to nicely please would you be so kind as to turn into a giant starship
07:10 < kanzure> nothing wrong with evolutionary computation of course
07:11 < xp_prg> kanzure the instructions exist in the dna
07:12 < xp_prg> they execute with proteins
07:12 < gene> yeah
07:12 < kanzure> it's not one to one ..
07:12 < gene> but it ain't like GPS
07:12 < kanzure> sigh
07:13 < kanzure> well at least gene's with me on this one.
07:13 < xp_prg> gene knows what I am saying
07:13 < xp_prg> explain it to him gene
07:13 < kanzure> haha
07:14 < gene> I do know what he is saying
07:14 < kanzure> sure, so do I
07:14 < kanzure> but that doesn't mean it's right ..
07:14 < gene> figure out the steps necessary to make a 3d shape using software
07:14 < kanzure> right, but it's not linear like that
07:15 < gene> yeah it isn't
07:15 < kanzure> in dna and biological systems
07:15 < gene> that's the point
07:15 < kanzure> xp_prg seems to be saying it is
07:16 < gene> read pharyngula more Kanzure and you might understand
07:16 < kanzure> sure, I read the blog
07:17 < kanzure_> http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/a_brief_overview_of_hox_genes/ is the classic.
07:18 < gene> some shapes might be impossible to make with bio
07:18 < kanzure> that's what you would think about origami for instance, and then *bam* Lang happened to the worl
07:19 < kanzure> *world
07:19 < kanzure> of course there are forms that you can prove to be topologically impossible I guess
07:19 < kanzure> but that's not interesting to me at the moment.
07:19 < gene> very hard to do might be a better word than impossible
07:20 < kanzure> no, there are >3 dimensional topological/geometric structures that are proven to be nonexistent in formal topology
07:20 < gene> ok
07:21 < gene> hmmm....
07:21 < gene> making a 3d model to meat program might involve weird higher dimensional math
07:24 < gene> can I transfer files over IRC?
07:24 < gene> to you?
07:24 < kanzure> yes, but please don't
07:24 < kanzure> it's called 'direct connect'
07:25 < kanzure> email would be good
07:25 < kanzure> I'm off to sleep.
07:25 < gene> why sleep?
07:28 < gene> WHOA! WTF did they do to my trigger!
07:29 < gene> WE ARE NOT USING THE REVISED TRIGGER AT ALL!
07:29 < gene> just finished the trigger model
07:31 < gene> the other trigger just looks wrong
07:37 < gene> screw it I'm doing the revised one too
07:37 < gene> dimensions are better
07:44 -!- percent is now known as jihaaad
10:23 < willPow3r> http://FantasticContraption.com/?designId=4718363
10:23 < willPow3r> this game is sick
10:25 < UtopiahGHML> willPow3r: looks like PHUN
10:26 < UtopiahGHML> (cf http://www.phunland.com/ )
13:45 < kanzure> phunland doesn't count since it had me reinstall xorg, nvidia, sdl and all sorts of other crap just to get my own crappy lineart
14:05 < willPow3r> phun graphics suck pretty bad
14:19 < wrldpc> howdy ybit.  
14:46 < kanzure_> http://fantasticcontraption.com/?designId=1000031 <- Can somebody explain this? How does this work?
14:49 < kanzure_> yeah so uh
14:49 < kanzure_> my point: 
14:49 < kanzure_> http://fantasticcontraption.com/?designId=6606 "the elephant walker"
14:49 < kanzure_> that doesn't look exactly like a theo jansen
14:49 < kanzure_> oh, I guess since it has motors it doesn't count anyway
14:49 < kanzure_> but still interesting.
14:51 < kanzure_> http://fantasticcontraption.com/?designId=3508 a crane]
14:52 < kanzure_> http://fantasticcontraption.com/?designId=8402
14:52 < kanzure_> how do people have this much time?
14:53  * bkero just ordered a beagle :D
14:53 < kanzure_> the phone, the dog, or a misspelled breakfast?
14:55 < bkero> None of the above
14:56 < bkero> http://www.beagleboard.org/
14:59 < kanzure_> http://fantasticcontraption.com/?designId=37164 another walker
15:03 < kanzure_> http://fantasticcontraption.com/?designId=54140 this too is needlessly complicated. A launcher for the stairstep level.
16:16 -!- UtopiahGHML is now known as needtologonwitha
16:17 -!- needtologonwitha is now known as UtopiahGHML
16:24 -!- UtopiahGHML is now known as Imustbetired
16:29 -!- Imustbetired is now known as UtopiahGHML
18:15 < kanzure_-> Hello.
18:19 < xp_prg> hola
18:23 < kanzure_-> Como estas?
18:23 < xp_prg> bien y tu?
18:24 < xp_prg> I don't like the guys I met last night
18:24 < bkero> muy mal, mi madre es loco en su cabeza
18:25 < kanzure_-> en que cabeza es tu pantelones de gato grande?
18:26 < kanzure_-> *estar?
18:26 < bkero> mi cabeza
18:31 < xp_prg> kanzure_- do you know any good software to help me visualize protein gradient diffusion in 3d?
18:32 < kanzure_-> mcell
18:32 < kanzure_-> http://www.mcell.psc.edu/
18:32 < kanzure_-> "Cells are tightly packed with structures and molecules that carry out the day-to-day operations of living. Understanding how cellular design dictates function is essential to understanding life and disease, in the brain, heart, or elsewhere. MCell (Monte Carlo cell) is a program that uses spatially realistic 3-D cellular models and specialized Monte Carlo algorithms to simulate the...
18:32 < kanzure_-> ...movements and reactions of molecules within and between cells--cellular microphysiology."
18:34 < xp_prg> wow cool
18:34 < xp_prg> too bad its not gpld
19:30 < kanzure_-> uh let me get something else
19:33 < kanzure_-> drat.
19:34 < kanzure_-> xp_prg: I'll get you something when I get back home. I don't have my bookmarks.
19:34 < kanzure_-> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Computational_biology
19:34 < kanzure_-> but that's my list if you want to check it out
19:34 < kanzure_-> I don't know which ones are the protein simulators though
19:35 < kanzure_-> http://dev.e-cell.org/
19:37 < xp_prg> do they accept sbml?
19:40 < kanzure_-> Not many will. If you want something to play with SBML, you'll get better luck looking at sbml.org.
19:40 < kanzure_-> or writing your own file converter
21:05 < kanzure> Hello.
21:05 < kanzure> Just got back from a talk from the head of Berkeley's Sensor and Actuator Center.
21:06 < kanzure> 150 nm features via chitosan & 5 psi via injection molding and pressing (nanoimprinting)
21:06 < kanzure> including effective organic FETs :-) :-)
21:06 < kanzure> this could be done in a water bottle..
21:13 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/bioreactor/membraneless_filtration/hydrovortices.zip some papers on the CFD of hydrodynamic vortices
21:23 < kanzure_> http://wiki.fsfe.org/Free-PDF-Readers-Campaign "This page will contain information and instructions concerning our compaign to promote free PDF-Viewers! So what is the plan? You know all those Pages reading sth. like: "The files offered on this site are in the Adobe PDF-Format. To view them you must download the Adobe Acrobat Reader." ? Well, we want them to change the wording and put a second Button beside the Adobebutton which links to www.pdfreader
21:23 < kanzure_> pdfreaders.org
22:29 < kanzure_> http://gittorrent.utsl.gen.nz/rfc.html 'This document describes the GitTorrent Protocol version 0.1, referred to as "GTP/0.1". The GitTorrent Protocol (GTP) is a protocol for collaborative git repository distribution across the Internet. It is best classified as a peer-to-peer (P2P) protocol, although it also contains centralized elements.'
22:31 < fenn> surfing in circles i see
22:32 < fenn> debtorrent is really much more urgent\
22:48 < kanzure_> opera is closed, no flash is running, why do I hear fantasticcontraption
22:52 < kanzure_> killall -9 operapluginwrapper did it. huh.
23:03 < kanzure> Hi cis-action.
23:05 < cis-action> salud
23:09 < drazak> nice
23:22 -!- cis-action is now known as mac_cowell