--- Day changed Sat Dec 06 2008
00:00 < splicer> hi Kanzure. Sorry for the latency
00:04 < gene> thaw the beetles?
00:05 < ybit> kanzure, heh, i've scanned it and read interesting subjects
00:05 < ybit> i've been meaning to do the same with open-virgle
00:12 < kanzure_-> openvirgle and om are practically the same thing, although there might be more stuff about the beginnings of skdb in openvirgle 
00:12  * kanzure_- leaves for home
00:14 < fenn> what's "hb"?
00:31 < kanzure> fenn: ybit called heybryan.org "hb" a few weeks ago
00:32 < kanzure> yay eric replied coherently to patrick .. let's see if patrick gets it yet
00:35 < kanzure_> http://robinhanson.typepad.com/overcomingbias/ "To a first approximation, the future will either be a singleton, a single integrated power choosing the future of everything"
00:35 < kanzure_> ...
00:35 < kanzure_> I know, I know, "super ai rawr"
00:38  * fenn mumbles about USA vs Russia yielding USA vs nobody in particular
00:39 < kanzure_> "
00:39 < kanzure_> So we need to either to work on a friendly singleton if a singleton is feasible, work on imposing further selection effects to encourage friendliness (using evolution as a singleton) or somehow ensure that all the initial competitors will be friendly, so that there are no unfriendly lineages."
00:39 < kanzure_> god this is all so stupid.
00:40 < kanzure_> I spot 20 holes in all of those implementation details that would preclude those from being real possibilities
00:40 < kanzure_> if James Andrix, who wrote that quote, really thinks that's the only set of options, then he's screwed
00:40 < kanzure_> good luck James.
00:42 < kanzure_> the reality distortion field is strong with this one ..
00:44 < kanzure_> Let me see if I can't compose an argument against the "singleton that controls teh futures v. imposing a singleton-as-evolution-itself (rewriting the playing field)"
00:44 < kanzure_> *against the dichotomy of
00:51 < kanzure_> Actually the singleton scenarios rely on MNT usually.
00:51 < kanzure_> That's a big enough hole as it is.
00:57 < fenn> and don't forget, there's always SOL DEACE
00:57 < kanzure_> fenn: ?
00:58 < ybit> fenn says hi
00:58 < fenn> hi
00:58 < ybit> to ya
00:58 < fenn> you must be psychic
00:59 < ybit> i think leos are naturally psychic, just as in chronicles of narnia
00:59 < kanzure_> SOL DEACE? "Sol-Feace is a shoot 'em up released by Wolf Team. It was first released for the Sharp X68000 in Japan in 1990. It was later ported in 1991 to the Sega Mega-CD, with rearranged Redbook music. This version was available as a pack-in with the Sega CD when it was first released in the US. In 1992, the Sega CD version of Sol-Feace was ported to cartridge and released for the Sega Genesis in the US by Renovation Products as Sol-Deace."
00:59 < kanzure_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol-Deace
00:59 < kanzure_> hrm
00:59 < fenn> what is all that video game crap
00:59 < kanzure_> oh, is that the wrong reference?
00:59 < fenn> sol deace is humanity's last hope against the giant evil supercomputer
00:59 < kanzure_> eh?
01:00 < fenn> the GCS-WT
01:00 < kanzure_> " GCS-WT's purpose was to ultimately unify every human society using the power of diplomacy, but GCS-WT has other plans: rather than unify mankind, GCS-WT turns societies into a dystopia after becoming an all-powerful dictator who controls all military action as it sees fit and oppressess mankind of various liberties; anyone who spoke against GCS-WT's will did not live very long."
01:00 < kanzure_> I thought that's the singleton concept
01:00 < kanzure_> the "rawr super ai is teh rulz over u"
01:55 < kanzure_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong
02:17 < gene> so what's with thawing the beetles?
02:20 < kanzure> gene: On the berkeley website they were talking about using cyborg beetles in military environments.
02:20 < kanzure> fenn was saying how they live only 20 days
02:21 < kanzure> so I was joking that they should be cryopreserved until deployment :)
02:21 < gene> heh
02:21 < kanzure> "thaw the beetles!" you can imagine some commander yelling that type of command
02:21 < gene> that's a good idea
02:21 < gene> beetles are small so you could freeze them pretty well
02:22 < kanzure> I wonder if flight is that simple in a beetle. I guess it might be a "vector" signal that is sent to the cerebellum-equivalent structure in the brain?
02:22 < kanzure> or you could train them with stimulation training I guess
02:22 < gene> yup
02:22 < kanzure> not as fun though
02:22 < gene> pretty much
02:22 < gene> you know what optic flow is right?
02:23 < kanzure> Is it just photons being bounced around on a certain path?
02:23 < gene> at least I believe it's vector like
02:23 < gene> no
02:23 < gene> optic flow is perceived motion
02:24 < gene> it's used in optical mice to figure out how to move the mice
02:24 < gene> optic flow also changes with distance
02:24 < gene> which is why bugs use it
02:25 < gene> to figure out if they're gonna crash into something
02:25 < kanzure> These beetles apparently detect 3 micrometer infrared wavelengths as a sign of nearby objects
02:26 < kanzure> wait.. 3 micrometer is burnt mulched, 9 micrometer is a predator, 12 micrometer is long-distance -- stuff like a fire (it's part of its behaviorial subroutines to seek out fires apparently)
02:26 < gene> http://www.simplypsychology.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/optic-flow.jpg
02:27 < gene> what really?
02:27 < kanzure> yes
02:28 < kanzure> so the berkeley lab has made artificial versions of their photoreceptors (the infrared receptors, I mean)
02:28 < kanzure> it's not in their eyes apparently.
02:28 < kanzure> I'm guessing it's in their shell as a form of heat sensitivity
02:28 < kanzure> Jewl beetle, jule beetle or something.
02:29 < gene> oh yeah the chitosan paper
02:29 < kanzure_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewel_beetle
02:29 < kanzure_> there is no chitosan paper as far as I can tell :(
02:30 < kanzure_> "
02:30 < kanzure_> "Low temperature, low pressure nanoimprinting of chitosan as a biomaterial for bionanotechnology applications"
02:31 < kanzure_> "Micro- and nanoscale structures of chitosan were fabricated by nanoimprinting lithography and biochemically functionalized for bionanodevice applications. Chitosan solutions were prepared and a nanoimprinting process was developed for it, where chitosan solution is used as a functional resist for nanoimprinting lithography. A low temperature (90  ?C) and low pressure (5-25  psi) nanoimprinting with polydimethylsiloxane mold could achieve not only 
02:31 < gene> optic flow is cool becuase it's easy to do and effective
02:31 < kanzure_> "microscale structures but also nanoscale features such as nanowire and nanodots down to 150  nm dimensions. The nanoimprinted structures were chemically modified and used for the immobilization of protein molecules."
02:31 < gene> http://www.centeye.com/pages/techres/opticflow.html
02:31 < gene> here's a better explanation
02:32 < gene> of optic flow
02:33 < gene> nanoimprinting?
02:33 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/Low%20temperature,%20low%20pressure%20nanoimprinting%20of%20chitosan%20as%20a%20biomaterial%20for%20bionanotechnology%20applications.pdf
02:33 < kanzure_> There we go, the paper.
02:34 < gene> PAPER FUCK YEAh!
02:34 < kanzure_> Pisano was the guy who was speaking yesterday. Now I remember. They called him Al.
02:34 < gene> how hard is it is it to do?
02:36 < gene> does it need vacuum?
02:37 < kanzure> it needs 5 to 25 psi
02:37 < gene> of vaccuum or pressure?
02:37 < kanzure> Also, it requires photolithography at some point, to make the pattern that you want.
02:37 < kanzure> uh, pressure
02:38 < kanzure> the photolithography would have to be done by e-beam litho, or ion beams or something
02:38 < kanzure> I'm hoping that large-scale methods (draw with a very sharp pencil tip or staple tip-edge) will work for micrometer features
02:39 < kanzure> umm
02:39 < kanzure> millimeter
02:43 < kanzure> hm, this could make nanopores for dna sorting I think 
02:43 < gene> well all you really need is metal contacts
02:43 < kanzure> there's a few guys (like, 10? overall) doing dna nanopores 
02:43 < gene> they don't have to be micro
02:43 < kanzure> with electrodes within the pore to detect a voltage difference across the current nucleotide or something
02:43 < gene> if you want to make transistors
02:43 < kanzure> and then slowly push the dna through
02:44 < kanzure> erm, slowly pull I mean
02:44 < kanzure> pushing, not so much :)
02:44 < kanzure> pulling via electrophoresis for instance.
02:45 < gene> you don't need tiny transistors for building a repper
02:46 < gene> tiny transistors are bad for certain apps
02:47 < gene> wait nanopores for sequencing or synthesizer
02:47 < kanzure> sequencing
02:48 < gene> can you do synthesizing with nanopores?
02:49 < gene> how thick do the chitosan layers have to be
02:49 < gene> is there a limit?
02:49 < kanzure> Not easily. You'd have to come up with a mechanical way to grab the DNA and then release the oligonucleotide synthesis chemicals, and really at this scale I suspect this is impractical.
02:59 < gene> hmmm...
02:59 < gene> cheap water soluble semiconducting material
02:59 < gene> you might be able to extrude chitosan
03:01 < gene> you can electro deposit chitosan(!)
03:06 < gene> we might want to tell the reprap guys about this
03:07 < kanzure> #reprap, be my guest
03:07 < gene> well I am still reading up on it to see if it would even work 
03:08  * kanzure waves to fenn in #reprap
03:09 < gene> but holy shit man, it's an organic semiconductor that's cheap
03:09 < kanzure> it's lossy and very noisey
03:09 < kanzure> it's not good for computation
03:09 < kanzure> well, I guess slow computation
03:09 < gene> it isn't? why?
03:10 < kanzure> well that's what was in the presentation
03:10 < kanzure> I don't remember the real reasons
03:10 < kanzure> I'm guessing it's because there's just too many places for the electrons to go
03:10 < kanzure> too messy or something
03:11 < kanzure> but it's not like it doesn't work
03:11 < gene> can it switch on and off reliably ?
03:12 < kanzure> yes
03:12 < kanzure> he explicitly said so
03:12 < gene> well then
03:12 < kanzure> :)
03:12 < gene> it can be used in a computer
03:13 < gene> maybe just a simple one, but a computer none the less
03:13 < kanzure> I'm still not sure how to make the pattern
03:13 < kanzure> is my needle idea a good one? It's not exactly a substitute for lithography one-for-one
03:14 < kanzure> plus that's not a film mask
03:14 < gene> why not print it out
03:14 < kanzure> what's the dimensional resolution of printers?
03:14 < kanzure> isn't it a few mm?
03:14 < kanzure> not microns?
03:14 < gene> a micron or so
03:15 < kanzure> hrm
03:15 < gene> on some of the best ones I believe
03:15 < gene> though I'm talking about doing something like fdm
03:15 < kanzure> I was thinking that this could be done in a water bottle if you only need 5 to 25 psi of pressure and only 90 degrees celsius
03:15 < gene> hahahaha a water bottle
03:15 < gene> you might be able to use a balloon
03:16 < gene> 5 psi isn't much
03:17 < kanzure> so once you print out the pattern with your printer, what's the protocol? is it something like the pcb printing chemical washes?
03:18 < gene> still reading the paper
03:18 < kanzure_> fenn: I just got the "Afghanistan fablab needs your donations!" email
03:19 < kanzure_> and went over to http://scripts.mit.edu/~emu/fab/
03:19 < kanzure_> "Woah, I just (re)stumbled on Todd Huffman's photos from Afghanistan, and they are awesome! He really got out and around, have a look!"
03:19 < kanzure_> http://www.flickr.com/photos/oddwick/sets/72157608736702937/
03:19 < kanzure_> Todd runs BIL conference, the free version of TED during TED.
03:19 < kanzure_> Todd also does destructive neural uploading and offered me a job last August
03:19 < kanzure_> (he's the guy that did some magnetic implants in his finger tips)
03:19 < kanzure_> why didn't I take that job?
03:23 < gene> heh
03:23 < gene> don't you have enough work as is?
03:26 < kanzure> well he was offering me something that could support me without going to school
03:29 < kanzure> fenn, why don't I have a fablab yet?
03:30 < gene> why? becuase you can't afford one
03:30 < kanzure> Actually ..
03:31 < gene> or are too lazy to make your own
03:31 < kanzure> Too hesitant to sign the checks.
03:31 < gene> did I tell you about solar pumped lasers?
03:32 < kanzure> No.
03:32 < gene> well you can make solar powered laser
03:32 < gene> s
03:33 < kanzure> What's the pump for?
03:34 < gene> pump as in pump with laser
03:34 < gene> http://laserati.com/taxonomy/term/273
03:40 < gene> kanzure wax circuits in the reprap thread
03:58 < gene> kanzure got any info on producing YAG?
03:59 < kanzure> YAG?
04:00 < gene> yttrium aluminium garnet
04:00 < gene> I want to make some
04:00 < gene> for a laser
04:00 < kanzure> No, sorry. I do have a linkdump on diy laser stuff though. One sec.
04:01 < kanzure_> http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele/lasers/LasersTEA.htm
04:01 < kanzure_> http://spt07.chez.tiscali.fr/Lasers.htm
04:01 < kanzure_> http://www.1stinterstate.com/~laser/images.html
04:01 < kanzure_> http://www.1stinterstate.com/~laser/index2.php3
04:01 < kanzure_> http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele/lasers/
04:01 < kanzure_> http://spt07.chez.tiscali.fr/N2links.htm
04:02 < kanzure_> http://cornellcollege.edu/physics/courses/phy312/Student-Projects/Nitrogen-Laser/Nitrogen-Laser.html
04:02 < kanzure_> http://electron9.phys.utk.edu/optics507/modules/m10/diode_laser_frequency_stabilizat.htm
04:02 < kanzure_> http://spt06.chez-alice.fr/00/air.htm
04:02 < gene> never mind
04:02 < kanzure_> http://www.jarrodkinsey.com/pages/howtobuild.html
04:02 < kanzure_> http://www.montagar.com/~patj/n2lmnu.htm
04:02 < kanzure_> http://www1.union.edu/newmanj/lasers/Light%20Production/producing_light.htm
04:02 < kanzure_> http://www.kayelemetrics.com/pdlbib.htm
04:02 < kanzure_> http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasercon.htm
04:02 < kanzure_> http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/lasercc2.htm
04:02 < gene> they might be sufficiently cheap on ebay
04:02 < kanzure_> http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/laserchn.htm#chntoc
04:02 < kanzure_> http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/laserfaq.htm
04:02 < gene> whao
04:02 < kanzure_> http://slashdot.org/articles/07/08/09/0412215.shtml
04:02 < kanzure_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TEA_laser
04:02 < gene> you can stop now
04:02 < kanzure> 14,000 bookmarks not for nothing.
04:05 < gene> but I don't know if I  can get a chromium doped Yag
04:06 < gene> http://cgi.ebay.com/Chrome-Green-Cr-doped-YAG-Cut-stones-pair_W0QQitemZ380079797627QQihZ025QQcategoryZ110730QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
04:06 < gene> I can
04:06 < gene> heheheheh
04:07 < kanzure> is this with respect to the chitosan nanoimprinting?
04:07 < kanzure> for broad-field laser illumination of the sample?
04:07 < kanzure> I would think a heat lamp might be more useful here
04:07 < gene> no
04:07 < gene> I want a solar pumped laser
04:09 < gene> an 80 watt solar pumped laser
04:09 < gene> think about it
04:09 < gene> a laser power by the sun
04:10 < gene> a laser that can run all day long as long as there is sun
04:10 < gene> and strong enough to laser cut metal
04:11 < kanzure> btw, the dinner is still on the 7th
04:11 < kanzure> I need to know if you're game or not
04:11 < kanzure> with the cryonicists/transhumans in the local area
04:11 < kanzure> transportation might be provided
04:11 < gene> definately not
04:11 < gene> I'm going into finals mode
04:24 < gene> well maybe
04:24 < gene> time info plz
04:28 < kanzure> 2 to 7 as a maximum sort of
04:29 < gene> hours?
04:30 < kanzure> from 2 pm to 7 pm
04:46 < gene> oh
04:46 < gene> might be able to go
04:46 < kanzure> kinda need to know so that I can arrange transportation
04:46 < kanzure> natasha might be willing to come pick me up
04:47 < kanzure> she's done so before, it's like a 10 minute drive for her.
04:48 < kanzure> and I have to acquire some food to bring if so. hrm.
05:00 < gene> will umm ramen be ok
05:37 < fenn> If someone in the lab says that he is more important, or is doing something more important, how should it be decided that what he is doing is actually more necessary?
05:41 < gene> if he is the one with the reactor scram device
05:42 < gene> or the one with the the black hole evaporator
06:44 < gene> wow, I'm running on 18 tabs and firefox still hasn't crashed
16:41 -!- UtopiahG1ML is now known as UtopiahGHML
16:46 < kanzure_> http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/792/keypadbk2.jpg pull-down keypad
17:09 < kanzure> NASA seeking out moon colonization "synergistic" ideas
17:09 < kanzure> fwd'd to om
17:14 < kanzure> Charles F. Radley might be willing to get us a proposal to the right people at NASA if om writes something good 
17:14 < kanzure> I imagine Paul and Eric will be willing to put in some good text
17:15 < kanzure_> http://freeluna.blogspot.com/2007/11/open-source-hardware-proposal.html
17:15 < kanzure_> also, FREDNET is an excellent example of the rise of open source in space tech I guess
17:15 < kanzure_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Lunar_X_Prize " Team FREDNET is an International Open Source and Open Participation Competitor"
17:16 < kanzure_> "Team FREDNET is an international Open Source and Open Participation competitor in the Google Lunar X PRIZE competition. Team FREDNET is led by Fred J. Bourgeois and has formed a strategic partnership with the Stuyvesant Robot Club. Uniquely, the team also allows organizations and individuals to participate freely in its mission through the team's website."
17:19 < kanzure_> Find this guy:
17:19 < kanzure_> http://www.nasa.gov/directorates/esmd/aboutesmd/about/cooke_bio.html
17:20 < kanzure_> "Mr. Cooke is a graduate of Texas A&M University with a Bachelor of Science degree in Aerospace Engineering."
17:20 < kanzure_> SEDS was hosted at A&M last month .. hrm.
17:51 < fenn> the tether experiment?
17:52 < fenn> oh. students. bah
18:22 < kanzure> yeah, damn students what have they ever doned
18:22 < kanzure> *done
19:04 < kanzure_> "The German Federal Archive has agreed to donate 100,000 images to Wikipedia under the German version of the Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike License. These pictures cover a period from 1860 to present. This is the largest picture donation ever to Wikipedia, and possibly the largest in the history of the free culture movement.""
19:20 < kanzure_> http://www.grants.gov/search/search.do?mode=VIEW&flag2006=false&oppId=43632
19:20 < fenn> grants.gov... i should spend more time there
19:21 < kanzure_> http://www.tsgc.utexas.edu/ 
19:21 < kanzure_> my sarcasm detector is broken
19:25 < kanzure_> http://nspires.nasaprs.com/external/viewrepositorydocument;jsessionid=J6RNWTQhqmNsKm3kQSZByDtCNXHg3ksdD9Tw1NhLVvG1GfJJSvB7!-1473313549!-1407319094!7006!-1!153240296!-1407319093!7006!-1?cmdocumentid=171195&solicitationId={29018E66-F769-3D89-B478-B8A04F1867C1}&viewSolicitationDocument=1
19:25 < kanzure_> full grant description pdf
19:31 < kanzure_> "The information provided in this notice will be used to assess research interests for the Steckler/Space Grant Opportunity and to determine the expertise required of reviewers."
19:31 < kanzure_> so I wonder if we can get Freitas as an acceptable individual on the review team heh'
19:34 < kanzure_> "Successful proposals will not be directed solely toward systems studies, routine engineering development of existing systems or
19:34 < kanzure_> proven concepts, or modifications of existing systems. A competitive proposal will clearly and concisely describe the innovative approach relative to the existing state of the art; address scientific and/or technical feasibility and its relevance and significance to NASA needs for space colonization; and provide a preliminary strategy for incorporation/integration into NASA programs or projects."
19:38 < kanzure> Hm. Just being a PI alone makes one much more likely to get a grant it turns out
19:38 < kanzure> I've seen various grant proposals before and they tend to suck
19:38 < kanzure> erm, proposals to get a grant awarded I mean
20:11 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Space_colonization <-- kay, made a huge document.
20:15 < bkero> kanzure_: You going to publish your wiki some day?
20:16 < kanzure_> bkero: Huh?
20:16 < kanzure_> hrm, Boonserm Kulvatunyou has done B2B manufacturing stuff with NIST and ORNL.
20:16 < kanzure_> 'Production' by Boonserm Kulvatunyou and his research work helped us to integrate the web. based software with the feature based parametric model generating'
20:17 < kanzure_> bkero: What do you mean by publish?
20:18 < bkero> kanzure_: I'm not sure
20:20 < kanzure_> I mean, there's links pointing to it.
20:29 < kanzure_> "If supplies can be sent to the Moon in bulk
20:29 < kanzure_> quantities more cheaply than for single-
20:29 < kanzure_> mission applications, having warehouses on
20:29 < kanzure_> the Moon is essential to store these items for
20:29 < kanzure_> the duration until they are needed.
20:29 < kanzure_> Inexpensive storage of goods between their
20:29 < kanzure_> points of origin and destination will be very
20:29 < kanzure_> important to the development of a
20:29 < kanzure_> sustainable and self-sufficient lunar
20:29 < kanzure_> operations.
20:29 < kanzure_> woah these people are stupid.
20:39 < fenn> don't forget to install security robots to protect against moononites
20:41 < kanzure> what?
20:41 < kanzure> how is it 'self-sustaining' if it requires a cache of material brought up by human involvement on Earth
20:42 < kanzure> I wonder what I should steer the proposal towards. They are seeking more in terms of robotics and rovers, but I of course want to focus on architecture/infrastructure development toolchains and simulation of designed systems
21:56 < kanzure_> http://www.fabfolk.com/ fab lab user group
22:17 < kanzure> yay Todd recognized me
22:58 < kanzure> fenn, I kinda need recommendations on issue tracking systems
22:59 < kanzure> is bugzilla still ok to use?
22:59 < kanzure> or is it Not Cool or something?
23:01 < fenn> as a user, i never had a good experience with bugzilla
23:02 < kanzure> we just need a way for people to order designs to be fabricated from a fablab network
23:03 < kanzure> so I was thinking of an issue tracker
23:03 < kanzure> where people would 'take over' an issue ticket number
23:03 < kanzure> which would be really cool since people would say "hey, I can relate to a ticket tracker! gasp"
23:04 < fenn> oh like mfg.com sorta
23:05 < kanzure> and ponoko I guess
23:06 < kanzure> they just want to have users upload PNG, BMP, JPG, STL, DXF or Corel Draw files and then pay via paypal immediately
23:06 < fenn> PNG BMP JPG is going to be a huge PITA
23:06 < kanzure> I asked them what formats they accept and they gave me those image formats
23:06 < kanzure> I wonder if they are massochists
23:06 < fenn> tell them they're stupid
23:07 < kanzure> k, right after I smite Smari McCarthy ..
23:07 < fenn> ponoko is a single manufacturer, but this is going to be distributed? or did i misunderstand that
23:08 < fenn> seem to recall something about using the closest lasercutter
23:08 < kanzure> no misunderstandings so far
23:09 < kanzure> the point is to dump the design files into a common repository or something, then let different fablabs take on the workload, yes
23:10 < fenn> heh i'm surprised you didnt mention #hplusroadmap
23:10 < fenn> or some irc channel
23:10 < fenn> though i guess passwords n stuff isnt the best place
23:11 < fenn> so, my advice, add SVG and remove all non-vector image formats
23:11 < fenn> except for raster scan stuff like halftone etching photos
23:12 < fenn> though why you'd want to do that is beyond me :)
23:20 < kanzure> yes, they also want SVG.
23:23 < kanzure> Smari suggests thinglink
23:41 < fenn> does thinglink rely on some specific webserver?
23:43 < fenn> guh.. it's all weird finnish art
23:55 -!- UtopiahGHML is now known as UtoTest
23:59 < kanzure> fenn, how would you like to live in Afghanistan