--- Day changed Tue Dec 09 2008
00:32 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/books/labmusic/dj_inphinity/   <- Me likes. (am uploading, there's 15 of them.)
01:08 < kanzure_>  SLASHDOT: "Nobel Winner Says Internet Might Have Stopped Hitler" *picture of Hitler*
01:08 < kanzure_> .. :'( Slashdot has gone down the tubes.
01:08 < kanzure_> "Godwin says this discussion is done now."
01:08 < kanzure_> Nobel Winner Says, "Internet Might Have Stopped Hitler From Being Effective"
01:08 < kanzure_> Godwin says, "Hitler Stops the Internet From Being Effective"
01:09 < kanzure_> It's apparent then that if the Internet were around back then, it and Hitler(and maybe the entire Universe with them) would cease to exist as soon as they met. Or maybe their existences are just mutually exclusive (in time). Or maybe...maybe...Hitler IS the Internet!11!! *POP* 
01:09 < kanzure_> *brains ooze down chest*
01:13 < kanzure_> Hm
01:13 < kanzure_> http://pilsenprole.blogspot.com/2008/12/links-to-press-on-republic-windows.html
01:13 < kanzure_> "Here is a continually updated list of links to press stories on the ongoing worker occupation at Republic Windows & Doors..."
01:13 < kanzure_> " 
01:13 < kanzure_> Republic Windows workers have been staging a sit-in at the Chicago plant since Friday over vacation and severance pay they say they are owed. The company told workers on Tuesday that Bank of America canceled Republic's line of credit because of a severe downturn in business at the plant, and that they would be out of jobs by the end of the week."
01:13 < kanzure_> "
01:13 < kanzure_> As union officials vowed to seek damages over the abrupt shutdown that left about 300 people jobless, people who apparently have ties to the financially strapped Republic Windows formed a limited liability corporation in Illinois last month, Echo Windows & Doors, that has bought a similar plant in western Iowa."
01:14 < kanzure_> I wonder what's costing these places so much.
01:14 < kanzure_> "
01:14 < kanzure_> "I'm in shock. I'm sad. I'm angry," Cabrera said. "I never imagined that after being open 45 years this business would close. All I want is what I worked for. I want my money.""
01:15 < kanzure_> I wonder how much of Bank of America's foot in this was for IP and bullshit like that ;-) stuff solveable with some OMy goodness.
01:21 < kanzure_> "Workers have another very practical reason for guarding the plant--to make sure that management would no longer be able to move out critical equipment. In recent weeks, important and expensive gear had disappeared--including brand new presses that showed up on the loading dock one day, but were never installed."
02:20 < kanzure> Hi fenn.
02:22 < fenn> i think my connection's stable again now
02:22 < fenn> will be moving to a new house soon, hope the internet there is as painless as it was here
02:22 < fenn> (i.e. just bandwidth, no nosy ISP doing traffic filtering)
02:28 < kanzure_> "
02:28 < kanzure_> d. Hands on experience in computing and manufacturing is a national security issue. The USA needs to know how to manufacture its own goods. I would offer as exhibit A, World War II. It's handy for national security when you have a ton of manufacturing centers that can be quickly converted to produce for wartime needs. Indeed, has the USA had a better manufacturing base, maybe we wouldn't have had to wait for five years and four thousand dead to get de
02:28 < kanzure_> ead to get decent armoured vehicles into combat in Iraq and Afghanistan."
02:28 < kanzure_> Wait, seriously?
02:30 < kanzure_> http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&id=1742825 Indiana going f/oss on school computers
02:31 < fenn> cool, they were doing a pilot program the last couple years in bloomington
02:32 < willPow3r_> that F-18 crashed a freaking mile from my house
02:32 < fenn> i'm more impressed with the one-laptop-per-child than with the decision to use linux
02:34 < kanzure> willPow3r_: Did you go see it?
02:34 < willPow3r_> didn't have to. it came to me
02:34 < kanzure> well now.
02:34 < fenn> did you hear it?
02:34 < willPow3r_> yeah, thought it was an earthquake @ first
02:35 < kanzure_> http://openfarmtech.org/index.php?title=Multimachine_%26_Flex_Fab   Samuel Rose wants to package this into an open hardware project repository format (see om-dev)
02:35 < kanzure_> huh
02:35 < kanzure_> so the openfarmtech people are finally willing to participate
02:35 < kanzure_> about damn time
02:36 < kanzure_> http://opensourcemachine.org/
02:36 < kanzure_> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multimachine/
02:36 < kanzure_> http://openlathe.wikidot.com/start
02:36 < kanzure_> I don't get it.
02:36 < kanzure_>  where are my design files
02:56 < kanzure> gah
02:56 < kanzure> what have they done to my precious
02:56 < kanzure> http://fablab.af/
03:11 < fenn_> how long has afghanistan fablab existed?
03:11 -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn
03:15 < fenn> so i think i have more concrete info on my gingery wiki than that "open lathe" page
03:15 < fenn> about how to build a lathe
03:15 < kanzure> that's unfortunate.
03:15  * fenn shrugs
03:15 < kanzure> Sam gave it as an example of something that he wanted to package up
03:15 < fenn> its funny to see the same thought processes
03:16 < kanzure> but I don't see any files though, that would qualify for inclusion in a repository
03:16 < fenn> first you need a design
03:16 < kanzure> I don't see any
03:16 < fenn> there isnt one
03:16 < kanzure> gee
03:16 < kanzure> did you see my proposal in the email?
03:16 < kanzure> "let's start with a screw"
03:16 < kanzure> I think I have a GPL'd screw from class
03:16 < fenn> hmm i dont need your solidworks crap
03:17 < kanzure> we can convert to something else methinks
03:17 < fenn> but anyway i was working on skdb screw class a couple weeks ago
03:17 < fenn> then i ran into units and got distracted
03:19 < fenn> fwiw i think the multimachine is a godawful piece of crap
03:21 < fenn> this guy at least has a clue: http://www.mfgx.com/blogs/opensource
03:22 < kanzure> what are those screenshos?
03:22 < kanzure> and what's that "open source team" pic?
03:22 < gene_> ???
03:22 < fenn> jorge barrera's crew i guess
03:23 < kanzure_> http://www1.eafit.edu.co/wiki/index.php/Herramientas_de_Manufactura_Dise?o_Abierto   <-- spammed..
03:23 < fenn> " Remember this is simply a mockup," and the projects are instructables
03:23 < gene_> So kanzure you have that huge table of properties right?
03:24 < kanzure> Table of properties?
03:24 < kanzure> ew, instructables
03:24 < kanzure> wtf is wrong with them
03:25 < gene_> yeah, you might be able to make it into a game
03:25 < gene_> http://www.offworld.com/2008/12/everything-is-pixelated-scribb.html
03:25 < kanzure> what Table of properties?
03:25 < gene_> material properties
03:25 < kanzure_> http://www1.eafit.edu.co/wiki/index.php?title=Herramientas_de_Manufactura_Dise%C3%B1o_Abierto&oldid=1194   <- had to go back in the history to find a non-spammed version .. 2.1 MB of history .. bah
03:25 < kanzure_> gene_: you mean the matweb.com rip?
03:25 < gene_> it's just a video game with a whole bunch of objects that have properties and stuff
03:26 < gene_> yeah
03:26 < gene_> maybe SKDB could do something similar
03:27 < fenn> how many turtles
03:28 < gene_> what in the video game
03:28 < gene_> probably a lot
03:28 < gene_> half the way down
03:29 < gene_> Doing automatically might be hard though...
03:29  * fenn yawns
03:29 < gene_> ok
03:30 < fenn> they could at least use cyc or something
03:30 < fenn> instead of reinventing the wheel
03:30 < gene_> what is cyc?
03:31 < fenn> it describes relationships between concepts
03:31 < fenn> like donut is a food
03:31 < fenn> cop is a human
03:31 < fenn> human is an animal
03:31 < fenn> animals eat food
03:31 < gene_> you mean there is something like that out there already
03:32 < fenn> yeah for 30-odd years now
03:32 < gene_> a huge database of concepts?
03:32 < gene_> I wonder if that's what they used....
03:32 < fenn> probably not
03:32 < gene_> link?
03:32 < fenn> http://opencyc.org/
03:33 < fenn> the interface needs some work i think
03:33 < gene_> wow
03:33 < gene_> a neural interface would be cool with cyc
03:33 < fenn> they have ~3 million concepts and several thousand relationships
03:34 < fenn> and lots of jargon :(
03:34 < gene_> any metadata?
03:34 < fenn> what do you mean?
03:34 < fenn> like who input the data?
03:35 < fenn> i dont really know much about it, tbh
03:35 < gene_> I mean like math describing what torque is
03:35 < fenn> yes, but that's just a relationship
03:35 < gene_> f=ma
03:35 < fenn> FAIL
03:35 < gene_> that's not torque but it could be if I change the vars
03:36 < fenn> actually i would be surprised if you got it right, since the equations wrong in all the textbooks
03:37 < fenn> torque = distance*force/angle, they always forget or ignore the /angle
03:37 < gene_> could you make a program that could figure out what formulas to make something
03:37 < gene_> not engineering textbooks on statics
03:37 < fenn> it's called an inference engine, and, a resounding "maybe"
03:37 < gene_> there is such a thing?
03:37 < fenn> supposedly cyc has one built in
03:38 < fenn> hmm and check out hod lipson's four-arm starfish robot
03:38 < gene_> I  say make me a transportation method capable of transporting 1000 tons of lunar regolith using only x power allotment
03:38 < fenn> not quite what you mean i guess
03:39 < gene_> already seen it
03:39 < fenn> it's not a djinn
03:39 < gene_> even went to a hod lipson talk
03:39 < gene_> a tranportation method moves by reacting against the ground
03:39 < gene_> yeah no kidding
03:40 < gene_> not yet at least...
03:40 < fenn> hey gene read some rocketry introductions please
03:40 < fenn> or your own formula.. sheesh
03:41 < gene_> limit to transportation methods that move by reacting against the ground
03:41 < fenn> why would you do that?
03:41 < fenn> and what does that even mean
03:41 < kanzure> to figure out what the equation is of something, don't use an inference engine, use symbolic regression analysis
03:41 < fenn> i.e. does an electrodynamic tether count?
03:42 < fenn> or what about a laser sail with the laser on the "ground"
03:42 < kanzure> "make me a method capable of transporting 1000 tons of lunar regolith using only x power allotment" - that's what some of the skdb stuff is to do
03:43 < gene_> well I want a general purpose method for moving regolith around, rockets don't make that much sense on the moon due to power consumption
03:43  * fenn thought "moving around" meant in orbit
03:43 < gene_> catapults might work
03:44 < gene_> but could get dust on solar panels if there are any
03:44 < fenn> what do solar panels have to do with anything
03:44 < gene_> how else do you power a lunar replicating factory
03:46 < fenn> and what do catapults have to do with dust?
03:46 < gene_> nuclear reactors?
03:46 < fenn> could use solar thermal
03:46 < gene_> lunar regolith is very powdery
03:46 < gene_> you could transport lunar regolith from point A to point B using catapults
03:46 < fenn> or perhaps some way to take advantage of earth's gravity well using orbiting tethers
03:46 < fenn> and dumping moon dust onto earth
03:47 < gene_> I am referring to moving moon dust from point A on the lunar surface to point B lunar dust processing facility
03:48 < fenn> for example your tether could pass near a superconducting coil at periapsis and convert its momentum into electrical energy
03:48 < fenn> said coil being on the lunar surface
03:48 < gene_> but can dumb robots build it?
03:48 < fenn> can dumb humans build it?
03:49 < fenn> maybe dumb humans with robots
03:49 < gene_> ideally you wouldn't involve humans
03:49 < fenn> why not
03:49 < fenn> we've got billions of em
03:50 < gene_> total automation
03:50 < fenn> yeah yeah whatever
03:50 < fenn> why do you want to truck dust all over the moon
03:50 < fenn> there's dust everywhere already
03:51 < gene_> http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/
03:51 < gene_> this is why
03:53 < fenn> looks like he's got it already figured out
03:53 < fenn> maybe you should start with what you're trying to do
03:53 < fenn> instead of starting with the answer
03:54 < gene_> we could have had replicators already if they hadn't stopped funding this project
03:54 < gene_> oh yeah do you know that microchips with bigger features are more radiation tolerant?
03:55 < kanzure> Why are you all over the place?
03:55 < kanzure> I'm with fenn
03:55 < kanzure> maybe you should start with what you're trying to do :/
03:56 < gene_> what making a lunar tractor?
03:57 < kanzure> is that what you're trying to do?
03:57 < kanzure> why are you making a lunar tractor, what's the actual project
03:58 < gene_> what's the first thing you do when you build a building these days kanzure?
03:58 < kanzure> ??
03:58 < gene_> if you answered move some dirt around you are correct
03:58 < kanzure> so you want to build a building?
03:58 < kanzure> moving dirt is far from the first step
04:00 < gene_> well actually pave a whole bunch of the moon
04:00 < gene_> level it first though
04:01 < kanzure_> http://lists.debian.org/deity/1997/09/msg00007.html <-- fenn, some of the orignal deity mailings re: package management in debian
04:02 < kanzure_> Heh. I should just copy these emails word-for-word. hehe.
04:02 < fenn> pave the moon! chrome the earth!
04:02 < kanzure_> http://lists.debian.org/deity/1997/09/msg00010.html 
04:02 < kanzure_> first design doc
04:02 < gene_> heh now you've caught on to my evil plan fenn
04:02 < kanzure_> oh
04:02 < kanzure_> this was after dselect
04:02 < gene_> I actually favor dyson roads though
04:02 < kanzure_> ""
04:03 < kanzure_> "Dyson Road Corporation Home Page. ... Dyson Road Corporation provides superb document authoring services focused on technical and business documents. .."
04:03 < fenn> what is deity?
04:03 < kanzure_> http://lists.debian.org/deity/1997/09/msg00015.html version 0.0.3
04:03 < fenn> is it a design document helper?
04:03 < kanzure_> well I thought deity==dpkg
04:04 < gene_> a giant ring that you drive a car so fast on it that it stays on it
04:04 < kanzure_> guess not.
04:04 < kanzure_> "
04:04 < kanzure_>   a) Deity should be a replacement for dselect."
04:04 < fenn> dselect is like apt, but less cool
04:04 < kanzure_> "dselect is one of the oldest front-ends to dpkg, and the bulk of its development happened when it was originally written by Ian Jackson, who wrote it alongside dpkg."
04:04 < kanzure_> ah, I've used dselect like .. once.
04:04 < fenn> its like that redhat package list that came with the old install disk
04:05 < kanzure_> hrm, so Ian did dpkg on his own?
04:05 < kanzure_> oh, Ian Murdock != Ian Jackson
04:05 < fenn> gwah
04:06 < fenn> what did ian murdock do then
04:06 < fenn> debian is nothing without dpkg
04:06 < kanzure_> hrm..
04:06 < kanzure_> (btw, Murdock is the most awesome name ever. I have a kitten named Murdock.)
04:06 < fenn> not named after ian i hope
04:07 < kanzure_> well, named after rupert more than anything
04:07 < kanzure_> tyrannical news organization owner.
04:07 < kanzure_> but also serves as a nice reference to metalocalypse
04:08 < kanzure_> "In the Metalocalypse series, Dethklok is depicted as an extremely popular and successful death-metal band, described by their adversaries, the Tribunal, as the "world's greatest cultural force." The band's fan base includes millions of metal fanatics, who frequently endanger themselves to watch the band perform live.[4][5] With their widespread commercial success and lucrative sponsorship contracts, Dethklok is ranked as the world's seventh largest e
04:08 < kanzure_> conomy.
04:08 < gene_> heh
04:09 < gene_> It's only a matter of time before this actually happens
04:09 < gene_> a band getting so rich they can afford arcologies
04:09 < kanzure_> yes, death to fans!
04:09 < kanzure_> "Arcology, a portmanteau of ecology and architecture, is a set of architectural design principles aimed toward the design of enormous habitats "
04:10 < gene_> yup got it right
04:10 < kanzure_> fenn: "dpkg was originally created by Matt Welsh, Carl Streeter and Ian Murdock, first as a Perl program, and then later the main part was rewritten in C by Ian Jackson in 1993. "
04:11 < kanzure_> mailing list archives only start in 1998 though
04:11 < kanzure_> yikes..
04:11 < kanzure_> and in case you all missed it, what I've been listening to for the last 5 hours - http://heybryan.org/books/labmusic/dj_inphinity/
04:11 < fenn> i wonder if there was a usenet group or something
04:12 < fenn> those are big mp3 file
04:12 < kanzure_> http://www.ouaza.com/wp/2007/07/24/assembling-bits-of-history-with-git/
04:12 < kanzure_> fenn: mplayer should be able to stream methinks
04:12 < kanzure_> it's not too terribly interesting, but if consistency counts ..
04:12 < kanzure_> "The dpkg team has a nice history of changing VCS over time. At the beginning, Ian Jackson simply uploaded new tarballs, then CVS was used during a few years, then Arch got used and up to now Subversion was used. When the subversion repository got created, the arch history has not been integrated as somehow the conversion tools didn't work."
04:12 < gene_> http://www.imeem.com/tag/dj%20inphinity/
04:13 < gene_> Imeem, because I'm still in school
04:14 < kanzure_> "After being exposed to the club scene in 1999, Inphinity knew it was his dream to be the one in the dj booth rocking the crowd. Instantly, he began spending countless hours learning the art of djing and working closely with production programs. Inphinity has always been told that he has an ear for dance music, so it ?s no wonder his underground mix cds caught the attention of clubbers, club owners, and promoters and shortly after it turned into a 5 
04:15 < kanzure_> anyway, where are these ancient dpkg files anyway
04:15 < kanzure_> debian backports might have them?
04:16 < gene_> http://www.imeem.com/ravenhunt/music/ibX1kx14/hidenori_shoji_one_ahead_system_cosmo_terminal/
04:16 < gene_> catchy techno
04:16 < kanzure_> gene_: you know about di.fm, right?
04:16 < kanzure_> http://di.fm/
04:17 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/books/music/radio/
04:17 < kanzure_> http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/d/dpkg/dpkg_1.13.25/changelog
04:17 < kanzure_> hah
04:17 < kanzure_> changelogs back to 1994
04:17 < kanzure_> rock on, ian :)
04:18 < gene_> what's all this with debian?
04:26 < kanzure> So they have changelogs, but not the sour ce.
04:26 < kanzure> *source.
04:26 < kanzure> how is that useful??
04:28 < fenn> there is source too
04:28 < kanzure> linky
04:28 < gene_> what are you trying to do?
04:28 < kanzure_> http://packages.debian.org/source/etch/dpkg   I only see for the latest version.
04:29 < kanzure_> trying to find some old dpkg sources, or the mail archives
04:29 < gene_> why? 
04:29 < kanzure_> nastolgia?
04:29 < fenn> hmm old source
04:29 < fenn> perhaps you want the repository instead
04:29 < kanzure_> nostalgia
04:29 < gene_> seems like a good reason to me
04:29 < kanzure_> fenn, ?
04:30 < fenn> revision control system
04:30 < gene_> btw did I tell you about my business card I'm working on
04:30 < fenn> should have old versions of the source
04:30 < kanzure_> fenn, any idea where?
04:30 < kanzure_> gene_: if it transforms into an origami version of Optimus Prime, then no, you have not
04:31 < gene_> no
04:31 < fenn> http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Dpkg/GitUsage
04:31 < kanzure_> they said they had multiple RCS's in dpkg's history
04:31 < kanzure_> hrm
04:31 < gene_> close though, a business card that contains a stirling engine that (hopefully)works
04:31 < fenn> no idea how far back the git repo goes
04:32 < kanzure_> http://git.debian.org/?p=dpkg/dpkg.git;a=tree
04:32 < fenn> 12 years
04:32 < kanzure_> 1996
04:32 < kanzure_> huh
04:32 < kanzure_> not bad.
04:32 < fenn> starting at 1.1.4
04:32 < kanzure_> http://git.debian.org/?p=dpkg/dpkg.git;a=history;f=dpkg-deb/build.c;h=da8434550c79cc6df45868d448103d94281da068;hb=HEAD
04:33 < kanzure_> that's still three or four years missing, but still
04:33 < kanzure_> I certainly haven't had a project last 12 years in repositories
04:33 < fenn> i'd be surprised if anyone even knew what a revision control system was back then
04:33 < kanzure_> ooga-booga! I come from future! revision control system! wheels!
04:33  * kanzure_ pokes the primitive linux programmers
04:33 < fenn> i bring water bullet!
04:35 < fenn> you might be able to get some early versions if you ask nicely
04:35 < fenn> supposing you can even find these people
04:35 < kanzure> didn't I get an email from ian?
04:35 < kanzure> some of the debian developers are still quite approachable
04:35 < kanzure> ikiwiki-guy as an example
04:36 < kanzure> Jim? Jay? Joseph?
04:36 < kanzure> hrm.
04:37 < fenn> any package maintainer will answer if you send an email (and it's actually their problem)
04:38 < fenn> anyway by "these people" i meant Matt Welsh, Carl Streeter, and Ian Murdock
04:38 < kanzure> ian is findable, btw
04:38 < kanzure> he runs a blog these days.
04:56 < gene_> http://www.imeem.com/popmusic13/music/VrFlUe2D/kraftwerk_the_man_machine_live/
04:58 < kanzure_> yeah, I found kraftwerk stuff in 2003
04:58 < kanzure_> erm, 4
04:58 < kanzure_> "I'm the operator with my pocket calculator" being their first track I heard
04:58 < kanzure_> http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/12/09/0125201.shtml re: German banks
04:58 < kanzure_> " 
04:58 < kanzure_> In theory, if the banking system were known to be compromised in such a huge way, and there were no way of knowing if your own bank account was compromised or not, shouldn't there be a massive bank run? Because everyone wants to withdraw their money right away to minimize the chance that this ridiculous security leak negatively affects them, right? Such a massive erosion of confidence can completely destroy a banking system."
04:59 < kanzure_> huh
04:59 < kanzure_> interesting .. they don't necessarily have to *prove* that they have so many accounts stolen to crumble the system
04:59 < kanzure_> "Gotta love the Germans. Even their criminality is impressively efficient :-)"
05:03 < fenn> to prove they werent bluffing, the crooks showed us a CD! wow!
05:04 < fenn> oh. with names and routing numbers
05:04 < fenn> still, that doesnt mean they can access the accounts
05:04 < kanzure> german banks are different apparently
05:04 < gene_> why don't we use crypto money like in cryptomoicon
05:04 < kanzure> evidently that's enough
05:04 < kanzure> why don't we get rid of money
05:05 < kanzure> stupid..
05:05 < fenn> havent we had this conversation before
05:05 < kanzure> it's just stupid.
05:05 < kanzure> not with gene.
05:05 < gene_> I'll give you a million dollars if you succeed
05:05 < fenn> seems to come up on OM every other day
05:05 < kanzure> fenn: and if we did, would you remind me what the result of the conversation was here?
05:05 < kanzure> I know I had the convo with ybit
05:05 < kanzure> but that was recent.
05:06 < fenn> there never is any "result"
05:06 < gene_> kraftwerk
05:06 < fenn> 1) define the problem
05:06 < fenn> 2) solve the problem
05:07 < gene_> what is the problem
05:07 < kanzure> why does it come up on om anyway
05:07 < fenn> srsly
05:07 < fenn> go spam p2pfags.org
05:08 < fenn> and what's with all the people writing books about stuff that isnt happening
05:08 < kanzure> huh?
05:08 < kanzure> do you refer to the book thingy that I linked you to yesterday? Smari's?
05:08 < fenn> perhaps it's just the amplifying power of the internet
05:08 < fenn> and christian siefkes, and michel bauwen, etc etc
05:08 < kanzure> I got back to him and told him it sucked, and he replied that there isn't a book yet about how tech can help fight the good fight
05:09 < kanzure> siefkes?
05:09 < kanzure> it was christopher kelty that did twobits.net, that book, if that's what you mean
05:09 < fenn> land and capital guy
05:09 < kanzure> oh
05:09 < kanzure> land and capital guy is patrick anderson, I thought
05:09 < fenn> er,.. well he replied in that thread i think
05:09 < kanzure> so by association? or by sucky ideas /me checks
05:10 < gene_> this conversation is way over my caliber
05:10 < kanzure> gene_: I thought you subscribed to openmanufacturing
05:10 < kanzure> or at least you were asking about it
05:10 < gene_> oh no haven't done that yet
05:10 < fenn> oh, other thread, it was "open hardware directory" and he linked to http://open-innovation-projects.org/general-discussions/flat/29
05:10 < kanzure_> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/8a26b785a4c2929b/0edd62354866400b?lnk=gst&q=siefkes#0edd62354866400b
05:10 < kanzure_> oh okay
05:11 < kanzure_> because in that other thread he just says "link please" re: the BFI challenge entry 
05:11  * fenn fails at email
05:12 < kanzure_> heh
05:12 < kanzure_> while we're ranting about om
05:12 < kanzure_> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing
05:12 < kanzure_> "It is for the benefit of all. It is the assembly of material without economic materialist intent. Its distribution creates rather than diminishes value. Its methods are made public with instructions to make every part of the material enterprise as simply as possible, however complex it may be. It is the creation of a productive device with abundance in mind, no matter how scarce the environment. It liberates the body from toil and drudgery, frees the
05:12 < kanzure_> It is read/write culture in physical form. It is both individual and global. It looks upon finance with a wry smile and twinkle in its eye. It decimates the abstract in pursue of the concrete. It thrives because it places value where it belongs, in the person and object of interest, whatever they may be. It is doing as one may as a primary element in the creation of value, produced as intended with each percept, rather than its representation. It is t
05:12 < kanzure_> what's up with Nathan's description of the mailing list .. ?
05:13 < fenn> what's up with nathan :)
05:13 < gene_> ???
05:13 < fenn> someone rewrite that in e-prime
05:13 < kanzure_> hrm, I seem to be disconnected - didn't get ybit's message on this box, but just got fenn's "what's up" re: nathan.
05:13 < gene_> well I don't get it
05:13 < ybit> fenn, i'm guessing you aren't a fan of the p2pf?
05:13 < kanzure> hrm
05:13 < kanzure> I seem to be disconnected
05:13 < kanzure_> but didn't get fenn's "what's up" and everything else on the other
05:13 < kanzure_> ah, there we go, it synched
05:13 < kanzure_> how disgusting
05:14 < fenn> ybit: i'm just sick of wankery self-promotion and trumpeting the coming revolution, whereas nobody is really doing anything
05:14 < kanzure_> viva la revolucion! now, to take my fiesta.
05:14 < kanzure_> siesta.
05:14 < gene_> indeed
05:14 < kanzure_> but really, I'm surprised that intro hasn't been discussed
05:14 < kanzure_> because it sucks
05:14 < gene_> we're working on the revolution for reall this time
05:15 < kanzure_> huh?
05:15 < gene_> I made a pick and place toolhead for reprap
05:15 < fenn> ybit: have you been following openmanufacturing?
05:16 < ybit> haven't been paying attention much this week with finals
05:16 < ybit> but i always catch-up
05:17 < fenn> i still havent caught up
05:17 < kanzure_> from when, fenn?
05:18 < ybit> i've actually talked to patrick a few times through IM concerning money
05:18 < fenn> nov 18-24
05:18 < ybit> was unsuccessful it seems and changing his mind over night
05:19 < ybit> and/in
05:19 < kanzure_> yeah, he seems to be pretty hard to talk with
05:19 < kanzure_> even Eric has tried going at it with him to no avail
05:19 < kanzure_> actually Patrick didn't reply to Eric
05:19 < kanzure_> so maybe Eric knocked some sense into him
05:20 < kanzure_> fenn: huh, you haven't even gotten to the origami stuff then
05:20 < kanzure_> the latest bout of origami.
05:20 < fenn> yeah i saw it
05:20 < kanzure_> cheater.
05:22 < fenn> no point in reading straight through
05:24 < fenn> now i'm going to be awake all night thinking about water bullet
05:27 < kanzure> I think we should first package a screw
05:27 < kanzure> what was the screw class going to have, fenn?
05:29 < kanzure_> hah, Carey Fisher posting to piclist
05:29 < kanzure_> making me some xwing controllers :p
05:33 < fenn> references a thread class
05:34 < fenn> then material, length, head type, and optional manufacturing process (rolled vs turned vs ???)
05:34 < fenn> or maybe process should include the material
05:35 < fenn> "One problem is that a component
05:35 < fenn> > or artifact of some product might not ever go cross-referenced across
05:35 < fenn> > the database"
05:36 < fenn> "might" == not once, ever
05:36 < kanzure> for instance in the current voiced repo there's subcomponents that are only re: the overall product
05:36 < kanzure> so if there's a button in one product, and a button in another product, no relation is understood there.
05:37 < fenn> anyway, back to the screw
05:38 < kanzure> this was for screw metadata right
05:38 < fenn> it can be used as a component, but it's also a "project" in its own right
05:38 < kanzure> right
05:38 < fenn> so we can explain how to make  screw
05:38 < kanzure> a tiny turtle :)
05:38 < fenn> or we can magically assume it exists
05:38 < fenn> or we can tell how to acquire a screw
05:38 < kanzure> I think we can do some bullshitting instructions
05:38 < kanzure> placeholder style.
05:39 < fenn> why?
05:39 < kanzure> "roll metal into cylinder. have fun."
05:39 < kanzure> well with the hope that somebody would correct it
05:39 < kanzure> since we're just trying to pop out the overall package
05:39 < kanzure> is this wrong?
05:39 < fenn> these things have a tendency to become pervasive
05:39 < kanzure> too bad PSL doesn't have good examples..
05:40 < fenn> we need a way of knowing whether something is good data or not
05:40 < fenn> frankly, i dont see any advantage to adding junk data
05:40 < kanzure> speeding up development time
05:40 < kanzure> hey wait, isn't this a development sin?
05:40 < fenn> this = what?
05:40 < kanzure> "just put in crap data/work to speed it up"
05:41 < fenn> oh, well, everything is a sin in someone's book
05:41 < kanzure> but really, I do think instructions are important.
05:41 < kanzure> acquisition instructions would be nice, but there's no web interfaces for this either and might involve more work
05:41 < fenn> ok, so, for now let's just describe how to order one from mcmaster-carr
05:41 < kanzure> wget --post-data="blah" (go check the forms on mcmacster-carr) 
05:42 < kanzure> or just keep track of the post-data string based off of the current HTML form on their catalog pages
05:42 < kanzure> blah, a whole module for surfraw basically
05:42 < fenn> there really should be some abstraction layer for ordering this specific part from a variety of suppliers
05:42 < kanzure> well yeah. that's what I'm talking about when I rant about B2B.
05:42 < fenn> right
05:42 < fenn> did that go anywhere useful?
05:42 < kanzure>  the ranting? no.
05:43 < fenn> like if i want a 1/4-20x1" socket head cap screw, how do i do that
05:43 < kanzure> random website checking at the moment.
05:43 < kanzure> I was hoping for an automated system via html form submission as a hack
05:44 < kanzure> but that's not long term sustainable
05:44  * fenn looks around for some rocks to bang together
05:44 < kanzure> hrm?
05:44 < fenn> stone age
05:44 < fenn> when it's easier to just send code to the lathe than figure out how to automatically order some screws
05:45 < fenn> "oh we just have jim down in the procurement department do that stuff"
05:45 < fenn> ya dont say
05:45 < kanzure> :(
05:45 < kanzure> the problem with html forms is, of course, they change
05:45 < fenn> of course
05:46 < fenn> and so will any API
05:46 < kanzure> so we could have a list of different html form submission entries in surfraw style that order the same type of screw from different places, and you just pray one of the companies hasn't updated in a while
05:46 < fenn> but HTML forms are a lot of work to scrape and parse etc
05:46 < fenn> really i'd like the suppliers to do this work, it's their fucking job after all
05:47 < kanzure> "but then everyone will see our prices!"
05:47 < fenn> ok, so we have the screw, now what does it do
05:48 < kanzure> I checked wikipedia a few months ago
05:48 < kanzure> it had a formal definition of something about perpendicular forces
05:48 < kanzure> how was it worded .. uh.
05:48 < kanzure> it was under the simple machines article
05:48 < fenn> inclined plane wrapped around an axis
05:48 < kanzure> and was something like "mechanical force appled to .." 
05:48 < kanzure> oh, you're talking about the geometrical definition
05:48 < fenn> that stuff isnt terribly important
05:49 < kanzure> the functional definition I mean.
05:49 < fenn> it could be a rivet for all i care
05:49 < kanzure> oh, I thought functional was important.
05:49 < fenn> how it works is important, but not at this level of abstraction
05:49 < kanzure> overall though there's some input and some output right
05:49 < kanzure> wait, what are we talking about, what's the current level?
05:50 < fenn> well, i'm imagining someone with two things they want to hold together
05:50 < fenn> so they say "fastener"
05:50 < fenn> and BAM some fasteners appear
05:51 < fenn> ok so it needs more info like holding force, holding rigidity, safety factor
05:51  * fenn edits the fastener class
05:52 < kanzure> well what's the relation between the number of clockwise rotations that you make and the amount of force of fasteneing applied.
05:52 < kanzure> ?
05:54 < fenn> that's part of the thread definition
05:54 < fenn> it's actually hard to predict
05:55 < fenn> in terms of ideals though, it's simple to calculate
05:55 < fenn> 1 rev = 1 pitch distance (for a 1 start thread)
05:55 < kanzure> hm
05:56 < fenn> torque * pitch = force
05:56  * fenn checks units
05:56 < kanzure> simplify, simplify! there's one tool right there..
05:57 < kanzure> how would you incorporate this though
05:57 < fenn>  units '(10*ft*lbf/rev)*(20rev/in)' lbf
05:57 < fenn> 2400 lbf
05:57 < kanzure> I mean, where is who asking what about 'amount of holding force' ?
05:58 < kanzure> is that a member method of the class?
05:58 < fenn> typical screw is 10% efficient though so you really get about 240lbf clamping pressure
05:58 < kanzure> and how do programs know to ask about the holding force (using that particular method)?
05:58 < kanzure> maybe I'm just having a memory lapse, I'm sure we've solved that before
05:58 < fenn> what programs
05:58 < fenn> you're too abstract
05:58 < kanzure> I mean, who's calling myscrew.holdingForce()
05:59 < fenn> you started with the answer
05:59 < kanzure> myscrew.init(some parameters), myscrew.holdingForce() for that type of screw
05:59 < kanzure> bleh?
05:59 < kanzure> okay.
05:59 < fenn> take a deep breath
06:01 < fenn> i need to learn how to do unit tests better
06:02 < fenn> it all just feels like some OOP wankery
06:02 < kanzure> because it is :'(
06:02 < fenn> ah but it is genuinely useful sometimes
06:02 < fenn> when things break and you have nfc what is going on
06:07 < fenn> is duct tape a fastener?
06:07 < kanzure> adhesive?
06:07 < kanzure> cohesive? Something like that.
06:08  * fenn leaves that question for later
06:14 < kanzure> +
06:19 < fenn> i know it's not impressive, but what else does it need? http://fennetic.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=skdb.git;a=blob_plain;f=skdb.py;h=f09206646ce5aaa9fa3d5f2089839c3b06051979
06:20 < kanzure> its own dir for starters
06:21 < fenn> for screw?
06:21 < kanzure_> well its it's own project, no?
06:21 < kanzure_> it's its
06:21 < fenn> hmm
06:21 < fenn> is it?
06:21 < kanzure_> I thought so.
06:21 < kanzure_> but anyway
06:23 < fenn> i like how python has a core library of frequently used modules
06:23 < fenn> ok so i need to show how to instantiate this from yaml
06:23 < kanzure_> yeah this is pretty confusing because I've forgotten so much, 
06:24 < kanzure_> are we still planning on having the instantiator also generating the cad models eventually too?
06:24 < kanzure_> right?
06:24 < kanzure_> so the yaml metadata is just doing general dependencies, not the specifics
06:24 < kanzure_> so somewhere else the specifics are mentioned
06:24 < kanzure_> an 'acme screw' would be a specific of this, and might come as an example file, yes?
06:25 < fenn> generating cad models is a method of the class, using data from the yaml file
06:25 < kanzure_> that doesn't sound right. the class should have a method that generates the cad
06:26 < fenn> 'acme screw' is not specific enough
06:26 < kanzure_> gah
06:26 < kanzure_> ignore me
06:26 < kanzure_> I'm not on amphetamine, I'm useless right now
06:26 < fenn> 1/4"-20UNCx1" socket head cap screw AISI 1040 black oxide finish
06:27 < fenn> on one hand i could try to make some kind of yaml schema and laboriously parse it and stuff the values into my data structures
06:27 < fenn> or i could simply build the data structure and dump yaml
06:27 < fenn> obviously i prefer the latter
06:27 < fenn> but it looks messy
06:27 < fenn> i forgot to say "now i need to create a yaml file to describe this screw"
06:28 < fenn> guess i'll do that
06:28 < fenn> not sure why i'm doing that
06:28 < kanzure_> just do stuff and I'll yell at you / fix tomorrow.
06:29  * kanzure_ goes away because he's useless tonight
06:32 < kanzure_> I'm actually still here, so don't leave me in the dark
06:34 < fenn> fighting with yaml
06:34 < bkero> wootoff
06:35 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=skdb.git;a=blob_plain;f=screw.yaml
06:36 < fenn> i wish gitweb had prettier url's
06:36 < fenn> like gitweb/skdb.git/screw.yaml/raw
06:37 < fenn> oh well
06:37 < fenn> bkero: is duct tape a fastener?
06:37 < fenn> what about a rope?
06:38 < bkero> Duct tape is totally a fastener.
06:38 < kanzure> what does cyc think
06:38 < fenn> oh noes
06:45 < fenn> bkero: do you happen to know a way to reload a python module that you are editing?
06:45 < fenn> or is this totally the wrong way
06:46 < bkero> fenn: import it again
06:46 < bkero> actually no
06:46 < bkero> chizu: ^^^
06:49 < fenn> i usually just quit the interpreter and load it again, but this trashes my variables
06:51 < chizu> fenn: Reloading the interpeter is the most complete means of doing so.
06:52 < chizu> But you can also delete any references you have and remove it from sys.modules.
06:53 < chizu> reload(module) can also work, but there's a number of caveats.
06:55 < fenn> how do i reload the interpreter? and does this save history? (up-arrow)
06:56 < chizu> I just meant what you mentioned, quitting and loading it again.
06:56 < chizu> Try reload(module), it'll probably do what you want if you're just using interactive mode.
06:58 < fenn> hmm not if i did from foo import *
07:08 < fenn> lisp has a nice feature where you can tell if something has been modified from the default value.. i cant figure out how to do this in python without getting excessively complicated
07:09 < fenn> for keyword arguments
07:09 < fenn> i think i have to resort to setting default to None and then make a method getWhatever() that checks if it is none and if so returns the default
07:10 < fenn> but that stinks, i just want to access foo.whatever like a normal attribute
07:15 < fenn> aroo.. apparently this is called a descriptor
07:19 < wrldpc> http://www.imeem.com/w0r1dpeace/music/O6zuJdMR/beta9_zencat1/
13:41 < kanzure_> http://grctechlib.grc.nasa.gov/subjects.cfm Heh I like how lunar-planetaryscience is more popular now
13:44 < kanzure_> I count four different people from @nasa.gov in my entire mailing list email history, all contributing to open source projects.
13:44 < kanzure_> Chris Mattmann, Tom Kuiper, Jaime Scibelli, James Stevenson.
13:44 < kanzure_> also Scott T. Jolley
13:44 < kanzure_> Simon J. Hook
13:45 < kanzure_> Gunther Kletetschka too. Ok. That's it.
13:46 < willPow3r> name dropping, are we?
13:49 < kanzure_> No, these have not communicated with me.
13:49 < kanzure_> just observing the distribution of NASA people doing anything remotely F/OSS related
13:54 < kanzure_> whene gene_ shows up again, he should see http://wiki.debian.org/DebianGis/PackageList
14:01 < willPow3r> qgis looks interesting
14:06 < willPow3r> actually all those programs look pretty neato. too bad its finals week
15:08 < kanzure_> fenn: so I'm still confused.
15:08 < kanzure_> originally, wasn't yaml going to be for metadata on a package
15:08 < kanzure_> not an instantiation of a package?
15:10 < kanzure_> in your om-dev email, yaml is used to serialize an instantiation of the screw
15:10 < kanzure_> grr. I should have been keeping [[skdb]] on the wiki updated over the past months .. 
15:13 -!- procto_ is now known as procto
15:35 < kanzure_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey,_I_Shrunk_the_Kids_Characters#Wayne_Szalinski
15:36 < kanzure_> "There in High School, he met Diane Murdock" <- huh, another Murdock.
17:42 < fenn> no, the idea was to instantiate code from yaml and use runtime checking to validate units and interfaces
17:42 < fenn> this way i didnt have to write a half-assed xml schema
17:43 < fenn> because there's no way a schema could do sanity checks
17:43 < fenn> (well maybe there is, but i didnt want to go there)
17:46 < kanzure> paul got on me about om-dev. talked with Sam Rose about it and he's ok with deleting om-dev. Need to talk with Smari, Nathan, you and a few others to make sure though that deleting is ok too..
17:46 < fenn> havent seen this before (list of FOSS sci/eng software) http://www.opennovation.org/
17:46 < kanzure> sigh
17:47 < fenn> i dont think paul understands the problem because he's part of the problem
17:47 < kanzure> this sucks.. part of the problem is that everyone who wants another list is not going to post to help me out when talking with paul
17:47 < kanzure> because that's the reason they want another list (heh)
17:48 < kanzure> (that they don't want to post on om)
17:48 < bkero> $60 750GBs on woot
17:49 < kanzure> bkero: That's what I got earlier this year. It was a Maxtor 750 GB for $64~
17:49 < kanzure> at Best Buy. Of all places..
17:50 < kanzure> fenn: posting to the discussion on om to help me out would be hot.
17:50 < kanzure> hrm, /me as to upload some logs with Sam.
17:55 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/chats/2008-12-09_Samuel_Rose.html
18:02 < kanzure_> http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_source_engineering <- dumped opennovation on there.
18:07 < kanzure> Hi Sam.
18:07 < samrose> reading through http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Skdb  wow that is f-ing awesome! http://ikiwiki.info/
18:08 < samrose> I have a friend who made a python wiki that stores data to mercurial revision control http://hatta.sheep.art.pl/  Hey kanzure
18:13 < kanzure> Ikiwiki wasn't entirely usable the last time I checked into it. Partly the issue is that it has its own format for representing pages. I.e., it's a "wiki that just so happens to use a git RCS under the hood", rather than being a wiki layer for exposing a git repository.
18:14 < samrose> kanzure, yes I don't think there is any wiki that actually works as a layer for GIT repo exposure, is there?
18:15 < samrose> although, hatta might be modded to do it, but python-git is unstable
18:16 < fenn> good lord writing emails takes so long
18:16 < kanzure> the other half of the issue is that a wiki is more like a centralized repo model.
18:17 < fenn> "i dont think there is any wiki" didnt you just look at ikiwiki?
18:18 < samrose> kanzure, could maybe be desktop wikis type of model, where each of us has our own wiki, but also repos could reside on web, and possibly be edited by maintainers, or import changes from xml of personal wikis
18:18 < kanzure> fenn, ikiwiki was more a wiki that just-so-happened to use git as its backend, and stored its own pages in its own format in the repository, rather than being an exposition layer for git to be in the form of a web wiki
18:18 < kanzure> I guess that's a simple modification to Joey Hess' (Hey! I remembered his name!) code.
18:19 < samrose> My friend just showed me how hatta wiki can write pages to repos
18:19 < samrose> or open pages that are on repos
18:19 < samrose> wow
18:19 < samrose> but would need some work to be amde to work with GIT
18:19 < samrose> when hatta  doesn't find any repo, it creates a new one in the dir you specified
18:21 < kanzure> There's also talk about 'semantic mediawiki', or the concept of having the tools under the hood managing the wiki be coded to be aware of the contents of the page to do more interesting things on the data .. for instance, categorizing and linking and whatnot, so that would be like dependency checking and other similar analysis tools. But I think this, as well as ikiwiki or similar, can come a bit later.
18:22 < samrose> I think you were on the right track with the ikiwiki idea, vs the semedia wiki idea. But anyway, ok, you want to work on that later.
18:23 < samrose> Although, RDF models could be used as a way to make flexible declarations of connections of many types between objects, but you don't need semedia wiki to do that (it is one way to do it though)
18:25 < samrose> what is your priority right now with skdb, kanzure?
18:26 < fenn> wow someone that agrees
18:27 < kanzure> the priority right now is getting some basic demo packages made so that we all know what we're talking about.
18:27 < fenn> i think kanzure has forgotten about skdb and is now working on graphsynth/function.device.mst.edu whatever that is called
18:27  * fenn cant stand calling it "the repo"
18:27 < kanzure> hah, that's somewhat true. Things do get somewhat tangled in my mind.
18:28 < kanzure> the big issue is that I'm surprised that we're talking about yaml for saving instantiation information, meanwhile I was thinking that the yaml was only for the metadata of a package for instance
18:28 < kanzure> (see, this is why we need the examples :-))
18:28 < fenn> i'd love for some bright young sprout to pick up the whole "expose-repository-as-a-wiki" thing and run with it
18:29 < fenn> kanzure: i think there are some fuzzy boundaries about what "the data" is exactly
18:29 < fenn> before we can talk about metadata
18:30 < fenn> i mean, url author date license, this stuff is dead simple
18:30 < fenn> hey that's a "minimum requirement list" isnt it :)
18:30  * samrose calls it "repo" because if I add up all of the "sitory"-ies that I might type in my life, I may end up missing something with allof that lost time :)
18:31 < samrose> hahah! :)
18:31 < fenn> samrose: this is a specific "repo" with its own axe to grind, not a revision control system
18:31 < kanzure> it was something like: urls (repo/git url too would be nice), authors, changelog pointer (to the file with the changelog (ok, maybe this should just be CHANGELOG by standard), license file, and also a dependency list in the yaml
18:31 < kanzure> this would be in a file like meta.yaml in the .TAR or .skdb (a .tar) file
18:31 < kanzure> right?
18:32 < fenn> changelog can just be a list
18:32 < kanzure> input/output information in terms of units was also going to be in the metadata
18:32 < kanzure> and then some way to point to further .py code in the .tar
18:32 < kanzure> yes?
18:32 < samrose> I think the YAML is a good flexible place to park metadata
18:32 < kanzure> yeah :)
18:33 < fenn> i'm still concerned about dealing with different layers of abstraction in dependencies
18:33 < samrose> is changelog generated programmatically, or manually (at this time)?
18:33 < fenn> manually, and forever more
18:33 < fenn> programmatically -> look at the repository
18:33 < samrose> so, coming from the repository
18:34 < samrose> with notes on the package added manually
18:34 < kanzure> fenn, well I was thinking that the abstraction layers issue would be solvable by an inbetween layer where you map what you want to what the other guys are calling their stuf.
18:34 < fenn> i mean it has to be hand written or it will suck
18:34 < samrose> fenn: I see
18:34 < fenn> samrose: ever read doxygen generated "documentation"?
18:35 < kanzure> doxygen is never sufficient, though it's a nice plus.
18:35 < fenn> you often find yourself saying "but what does it _DO_"
18:35 < samrose> what kanzure talks about could be where an RDF comes in   I work with computer generated documentation daily. I am used to it, but understand
18:36 < fenn> kanzure: ok, i'd call that a compatibility API.. not so familiar with RDF and how it all works in practice
18:36  * fenn finishes email to list
18:38 < samrose> Do you have objections to working with files where people might be using a mercurial repository in place of GIT? Could mercurial be an option?
18:39 < samrose> (provided the fact that you can migrate repositories back and forth, of course)
18:40 < fenn> i havent used mercurial, but i dont see why not
18:41 < fenn> the thing that got me interested in git was that it tracked content, regardless of what file it was located in
18:42 < fenn> so if you move a block of text from one file to another, the new block of text has the old changes associated with it
18:42 < fenn> and distributed development as a central theme
18:42 < kanzure> this is **wrong**: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/repo/acmescrew.tar.skdb
18:42 < kanzure> but an example. still wrong.. but.
18:44 < fenn> it's going very slow.. 500bytes/sec
18:45 < kanzure> uh I don't know why.
18:45 < kanzure> what should I check?
18:46 < kanzure> I'm getting normal google ping
18:46 < fenn> try netstat --inet
18:48 < kanzure> why am I connected to an efnet fileserver.
18:48 < fenn> HACKED
18:49 < kanzure_> http://www.technologyreview.com/biomedicine/21784/ <- Andrew Hessel's link to a diy lab on a chip with paper and tape
18:49 < kanzure_> efnet. afs3 fileserver
18:53 < kanzure> oh wait.
18:54 < kanzure> Todd might be backing up my nature dump.
18:54 < kanzure> via http ? wtf.
18:57 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/whitesides/ for the papers. The one that says 'paper and tape' is the one in particular.
18:59 < fenn> huh. "Google Groups does not let you reuse a 
18:59 < fenn> list name once it has been deleted."
18:59  * fenn adds to his trivia file
19:01 < fenn> jeez that .sldprt file is 500KB?
19:01 < fenn> in acmescrew.tar.skdb
19:02 < kanzure_> hrm, my other box has netsplitted.
19:02 < kanzure_> yeah, sldprt is large.
19:06 < kanzure_> I should have thrown in some gxml silliness into that tar file, but I think that's enough to work with for now. 
19:06 < kanzure_> I'd prefer an stl-generator for screws though
19:06 < fenn> heh
19:06 < kanzure_> rather than just one model..
19:06 < fenn> what is the gxml graph of a screw?
19:06 < fenn> a node with some arrows pointing nowhere?
19:07 < kanzure_> it would only have a functional gxml file, where the node names represent the functions that it solves
19:07 < kanzure_> so the correct way to word this might be
19:08 < kanzure_> "according to this black box diagram, this solves the problem of the conversion of torque into a mechanical fastening"
19:08 < fenn> a list of functions of a screw
19:08 < fenn> *cough* list *cough*
19:08 < kanzure_> no, don't worry about it
19:09 < fenn> i mean you dont have to make a graph and complicate everything
19:09 < kanzure_> it's only a graph when you start to get dependency information
19:09 < kanzure_> *that's* a graph. "This is a screw->metal plate->other metal plate" although it's a simple graph.
19:09 < fenn> ok
19:14 < kanzure> hm, there's a #openmanufacturing
19:15 < Smari> oh dear
19:15 < kanzure> Hello Smari :-)
19:16 < Smari> Did I ever share with you my deep loathing of anything related to transhumanism?
19:17 < kanzure> No. What's wrong with brain implants, rTMS, computational neuroscience and other hacking?
19:18 < Smari> Nothing at all. I like all of that.
19:19 < Smari> It's the transhumanist assumptions that peeve me, not where they're going or how they want to get there.
19:19 < kanzure> Assumptions?
19:19 < kanzure> Which ones are those?
19:19 < Smari> The assumption that transcending limitations of the human form will inevitably be better for humanity, for one.
19:19 < kanzure_> http://www.maxmore.com/extprn3.htm <- What's wrong with these 7 principles?
19:19 < kanzure> Woah, wait a sec. That's not a transhuman assumption.
19:19 < kanzure> Who defines "better" for humanity anyway? What is that crap??
19:19 < Smari> Hehehe
19:20 < Smari> Admittedly, my references in this field are somewhat limited.
19:20 < kanzure> Yeah, well, I blame the WTA and a lot of other crappy people. If you want essays to read (meh), written by Paul actually, check out http://heybryan.org/fernhout/ for a critique on Kurzweil's sillyness.
19:21 < kanzure> But anyway, personal technologies shouldn't be thrown out so readily.
19:21 < Smari> WTA?
19:21 < kanzure> World Transhumanist Association. A bunch of jerks :-( sitting around talking about ethics :-(.
19:21 < Smari> Ah
19:21 < Smari> That might be the problem.
19:21 < kanzure> It is.
19:21 < kanzure> heh'
19:21 < Smari> Extropian stuff I've read by Charlie Stross is very nice.
19:22 < kanzure> Charlie and I have emailed a few times before, didn't go anywhere though.
19:23 < kanzure> Anyway, I don't know why I still run around with the words transhuman, given the ridiculously bad rep the WTA has given it and such, but the tech stuff is still stuff I like to work on from time to time..
19:23 < kanzure> I'd be open to changing the channel name if it weren't for the fact that we all just keep on showing up here in this channel :-)
19:24 < Smari> Yeah
19:24 < Smari> No worries.
19:24 < Smari> Anyway..
19:25 < kanzure> Actually there is a channel redirect mechanism. Just something I forgot about.
19:25 < kanzure> Yeah, so openmanufacturing. Did you push your comments?
19:25 < Smari> Just a few.
19:25 < Smari> I had to try hard to sound annoyed.
19:25 < Smari> I'm just not very annoyed today.
19:25 < Smari> I watched policemen being beaten up when I woke up. Very relaxing.
19:26 < kanzure> Is your island going up in flames?
19:26 < Smari> Are you telling me that we have more than one celeb on the om list?
19:26 < Smari> Yes it is. :)
19:26 < kanzure> What, celeb?
19:26 < Smari> Paul.
19:26 < kanzure> Which celebrity are you talking about?
19:26 < kanzure> Hm.
19:27 < kanzure> I don't understand. There's Eric, he's awesome, you, me, ben, actually everyone.
19:27 < fenn> hello smari, i'm ben
19:27 < fenn> am i a celebrity?
19:27 < Smari> What with yay ben.
19:27 < Smari> sorry.
19:27 < Smari> noo
19:28 < Smari> I mean on the openmanufacturing list
19:28 < Smari> There's a lot of fairly well known people there. "People with wikipedia profiles" :)
19:28 < fenn> ooo
19:29 < fenn> i must admit i'm quite sick of authors
19:29 < kanzure> Don't you get a profile if you register on wikipedia?
19:30 < fenn> kanzure: articles about them (whoever they is)
19:30 < fenn> hmmm
19:31 < fenn> Smari: how did you get a fablab airlifted into some island in the middle of the ocean?
19:32 < Smari> fenn, when I was 16 I realized that I could convince people to do anything I wanted them to. Since then I've been trying to prove myself wrong.
19:32 < kanzure> How's it working out for you?
19:33 < Smari> I got a fablab airlifted to some island in the middle of the ocean...
19:33 < Smari> *shrug*
19:33 < fenn> so are you going to secede from the UN and WSLE your way out of earthly politics?
19:36 < fenn> so anyway before you showed up we were talking about whitesides-paper-tape-chip, RDF, and skdb examples
19:37 < fenn> in this case "example" means "the only working code we have"
19:37 < kanzure_> don't forget the horrible nonfunctional tar file I just made
19:38 < kanzure_> I feel like a little part of me died when I made it.
19:38 < fenn> yeah, not sure what the point of that was
19:38 < kanzure_> well to have a basic example of a tar file with the yaml and python in it
19:38 < kanzure_> plus a model file.
19:38 < fenn> oh
19:38 < fenn> why a tar file?
19:39 < kanzure_> download all at once
19:39 < kanzure_> right?
19:39 < kanzure_> that's how you work with a .deb
19:39 < fenn> isnt it the same as having a directory?
19:39 < kanzure_> yes, but you don't have to click multiple times
19:39 < fenn> i mean, dont get attached to the concept of skdb project = tar with yaml and python
19:39 < kanzure_> would you rather have it compressed?
19:39 < kanzure_> or do you just want everyone to git clone
19:39 < fenn> maybe we should come up with an API for skdb projects
19:39 < kanzure_> which I'm ok with
19:40 < nsh> what y'all trying to do?
19:40 < fenn> i think whatever you download should include the revision history
19:40 < fenn> so then when you want to contribute changes it's not a burden
19:41 < kanzure_> okay then, always git cloning is fine
19:41 < fenn> ok
19:41 < fenn> and for non-technical people there is the wiki layer
19:41 < fenn> nsh: try and take over the world!
19:41  * kanzure_ has pinky and the brain episodes for anyone who wants them
19:42 < kanzure_> really the tar file was so that you have some things to work with, namely the sldprt file I guess
19:44 < kanzure_> oh we could do arduino instead
19:44 < kanzure_> http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardDuemilanove
19:44 < kanzure_> http://arduino.cc/en/uploads/Main/arduino-duemilanove-reference-design.zip "eagle files"
19:44 < fenn> ah, well .sldprt doesnt help me at all
19:45 < fenn> electronics is pretty well systematized already
19:45 < kanzure_> so then what's the problem with using it as an example?
19:45 < fenn> on the other hand, arduino has a lot of capabilities
19:46  * nsh wants pinky and the brain episodes
19:46 < fenn> dunno if you've ever read an atmega datasheet
19:46 < fenn> they're like 200 pages long
19:46 < kanzure_> I've read datasheets, not atmega sheets though
19:46 < kanzure_> actually I've read atmel application notes
19:46 < kanzure_> does this count?
19:46 < Smari> The guy who invented the Arduino.. I crashed at his place in October..
19:46 < fenn> no
19:47 < kanzure_> nsh: http://heybryan.org/books/pinky_and_the_brain/
19:48 < fenn> arduino should definitely be one of the early additions though
19:50 < fenn> get rid of om-dev and just do some wikification?
19:50 < Smari> hahahaha
19:50 < fenn> does this mean put the recent skdb content on skdb's wiki page
19:51 < kanzure_> fenn: well we should put the skdb content on the wiki anyway
19:51 < Smari> I can't post to om-dev from @anarchism.is
19:51 < nsh> ty
19:51 < kanzure_> Smari: I turned off posting for the time being
19:51 < kanzure_> to put pressure on commenting on the om emails
19:51 < kanzure_> to sort it all out.
19:51 < kanzure_> before Paul kills me or something :)
19:51 < fenn> i dont think that ever works
19:51 < fenn> see the invention of the smiley, for example
19:51 < fenn> (all jokes must be tagged with :) sign)
19:51 < Smari> hahaha
19:52 < Smari> haha
19:52 < samrose> fenn (sorry for fading out) I think mercurial does exactly what you are talking about GIT doing with text. Both were made as proposals for linux kernal devleopment, but git won out due (probably because it is made wholly in C I think)
19:53 < fenn> i hope some day someone writes a revision control abstraction layer
19:53 < samrose> I just tested hatta wiki, and it totally will work as a wiki layer of mercurial repo
19:53 < samrose> if you try to open a binary, hatta will even ask you to upload a new file, and it writes all changes to repo, you just run ./hatta.py -d /path/to/your/text/files
19:54 < samrose> and hatta will work with existing repo, you can then visit  http://localhost:8080/name_of_your_file.txt and edit, and if you run hg log, you wil see changes
19:54 < samrose> f-ing brilliant!
19:56 < samrose> no way of deleting files, though, that I can see
19:59 < fenn> oh yay, the "mu" license
20:00 < fenn> all that zen stuff is just an excuse to be a bastard
20:02 < kanzure_> fenn, what's the git clone for your skdb.git anyway?
20:02 < kanzure_> I thought it was git-clone http://fennetic.net/git/skdb.git/
20:02 < kanzure_> but this fails
20:04 < fenn> well.. i have to do some incantation to fix that
20:04 < fenn> try git://
20:04 < kanzure_> warning: remote HEAD refers to nonexistent ref, unable to checkout.
20:05 < fenn> ok try again either way
20:05 < kanzure_> http worked, git:// didn't. 
20:06 < fenn> i'm getting this error on the console: [11873] '/home/fenn/git//git/skdb.git': unable to chdir or not a git archive
20:06 < fenn> hm probably misconfigured git daemon
20:07  * samrose was able to get success with sudo git clone http://fennetic.net/git/skdb.git/
20:07 < kanzure_> yep, same here now.
20:07 < fenn> sudo?
20:07 < kanzure_> sounds unnecessary
20:08 < Smari> People use sudo too freely.
20:08 < Smari> "ah, command won't work. Sudo to the rescue!"
20:08 < kanzure_> fenn, how would Thread.clamping_force() ever be called
20:08 < samrose> haha
20:08 < fenn> kanzure_: i have no ide
20:08 < samrose> I am using ubuntu, it won't write the bloody files without sudo people! :)
20:09 < samrose> well, ubuntu could, but I'd rather run it this way
20:09 < fenn> kanzure_: but it seems important doesnt it?
20:09 < kanzure_> fenn, this is why we've been talking for the past few months
20:09 < kanzure_> yes, it's important to resolve this
20:10 < kanzure_> one thought that you should probably toss out, but needs to be expressed anyway,
20:10  * fenn braces
20:10 < kanzure_> was that python would somehow expose the member methods to questioning apps
20:10 < kanzure_> and then these member methods would be used, somehow, either in this own package, or in other packages depending on this screw package
20:11 < kanzure_> common methods like "tell me how to make this" are good member methods to have. but specialized member methods get used, how? By other packages that depend on screw.somespecializedfunc()?
20:11 < kanzure_> oh
20:11 < kanzure_> I guess it can be just for unit tests and other things like that
20:12 < fenn> yes, simulations
20:12 < kanzure_> verification of constraints, unit testing, final serializing into a project dump (whatever that means), etc.
20:12 < samrose> what is the design patter (if any) that is employed with skdb?
20:12 < samrose> pattern
20:12 < kanzure_> so does that mean that we need to always have something like test.py ? or simulator.py? and that these would employ the classes defined, in some standardized way?
20:12 < fenn> could you give me some examples of "design patterns" so i know what you want?
20:13 < kanzure_> client-server
20:13 < kanzure_> is an example
20:13 < fenn> oh, well skdb is both distributed and client-server
20:13 < fenn> s/distributed/desktop/
20:13 < fenn> er.. no that's not quite right
20:13 < kanzure_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architectural_pattern_(computer_science)
20:13 < fenn> you can access it from the web but you can also run it directly on your hard drive
20:13 < samrose> when you are employing classes with python, you can use different OOP design patterns, depending on the problems you are trying to solve with the program you are writing
20:14 < samrose> if you want to, not that you have to 
20:14 < kanzure_> layers, presentation-abstraction-control, three-tier, pipeline, implicit invocation, blackboard system, peer-to-peer, service-oriented architecture, naked objects, model-view-controller, dependency-injection
20:14 < samrose> I ask because I am getting a sense of some patterns emerging in what you all are talking about, and wondered if you had explicitly employed an object oriented pattern, but I se that maybe you have not
20:15 < samrose> kanzure_  so all of those patterns are employed in your system?
20:15 < kanzure_> No, that was a list for fenn.
20:15 < fenn> samrose: basically i want one code object for each mathematical model of a real artifact (or potentially real artifact)
20:15 < samrose> aha
20:15 < samrose> :)
20:16 < samrose> why?
20:16 < samrose> fenn
20:16 < fenn> because then i can poke at them and see what happens
20:16 < samrose> ah, huh that makes sense
20:16 < kanzure_> wah. you're taking away my attempts at getting fenn to find a way to use the specialized member classes, possibly leading to him adding a simulation.py file.
20:16 < kanzure_> or something.
20:17  * kanzure_ goes off to eat :)
20:17 < fenn> hmph.
20:17 < samrose> no, you should still do that fenn
20:17 < kanzure_> hrmph?
20:17 < samrose> :)
20:17 < samrose> But I can see why fenn wants to have this kind of "playground"
20:18 < fenn> each project should have its own test.py but this isnt necessarily part of the live code object
20:18 < kanzure_> screw.tar.skdb would qualify for a test.py of its own, yes?
20:18 < fenn> samrose: originally this grew out of my need to figure out what order to build tools in
20:19 < fenn> so like a drill press can make holes, and a lathe can make round things... can i make a milling machine with this?
20:19 < fenn> the answer is that i should have built a shaper first
20:19 < fenn> oh well
20:19 < fenn> kanzure_: yes, but like i said i'm not good with unit tests yet
20:20 < kanzure_> right now this is more like a bill of materials list. 
20:20 < kanzure_> I feel like we've regressed
20:20 < samrose> You could be employing one software design, but then turn on a testing function that will output the objects for everything
20:20 < kanzure_> we had better ideas months ago
20:20 < fenn> yeah
20:20 < samrose> in python, everything is an object btw
20:21  * fenn should look at some logs
20:21 < kanzure_> our logs are terribly convoluted when we discussed this stuff
20:21 < kanzure_> but I should do the same too, transfer some stuff to the wiki
20:21 < fenn> samrose: yes and no.. a dict is more like a data structure
20:21 < kanzure_> if you want to zip up all the logs you have, I'll do the same, but most of the good stuff is from before I started keeping irssi logs
20:21 < kanzure_> (laptop failure)
20:22 < fenn> heh i doubt anyone will be willing to read through all that
20:22 < kanzure_> meh, I can pull a ybit
20:22 < samrose> fenn, maybe like a data structure, but the basic unit in *all* of python, beyond shadow of doubt, is object
20:22 < kanzure_> which is a ybit pulling a bryan
20:22 < kanzure_> uh oh, recursion error :)
20:23 < jm> http://heybryan.org/books/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/Feynman/
20:23 < samrose> anyway, you could make the objects you are looking for as part of testing system (or even part of design/building functionality)
20:23 < kanzure_> yeah, the symlink is messed up, jm
20:23 -!- nsh- is now known as nsh
20:24 < kanzure_> samrose: that's sort of what we were planning on doin
20:24 < kanzure_> doing
20:24 < kanzure_> see, the metadata was going to have units
20:24 < kanzure_> to tell you kind of a dimensional analysis of the component
20:24 < kanzure_> such that an inlet would allow some sort of fluid, and so you know that you have all of those options available
20:24 < samrose> have you looked at pyunit?
20:24 < kanzure_> yes
20:24 < samrose> ah, figured maybe you did
20:24 < kanzure_> gnu units as well
20:24 < samrose> sorry to interrupt
20:24 < samrose> continue
20:25 < kanzure_> not an issue ..
20:25 < fenn> units is an overloaded term
20:25 < fenn> pyunit is for testing software
20:25 < kanzure_> the big issue is now that we have a rather skeletal structure we're scratching our heads trying to remember what we were thinking of doing next
20:25 < kanzure_> oh, woops
20:25 < kanzure_> sorry about that
20:25 < fenn> gnu units is for dimensional symbols
20:25 < kanzure_> what was the python package that did units that I found?
20:25 < kanzure_> pnum?
20:25 < fenn> unum
20:25 < kanzure_> blah
20:25 < fenn> (it's awful btw)
20:26 < fenn> it looks good on paper
20:26 < kanzure_> yeah, your comments expressed as much
20:26 < kanzure_> samrose: once we figure out what we were thinking of doing next, heh' then we'll get the wiki updated a bit more
20:26 < samrose> pynum yeah that is right, fenn is right pyunit for unit testing
20:26 < kanzure_> thsi is rather embarrasing. I'm sure we previously figured out "what do we do to link packages together"
20:26 < samrose> so you were going with GNU Unti
20:26 < kanzure_> besides dependencies
20:26 < samrose> Unit
20:27 < kanzure_> yeah, wrappers for gnu-unit, etc.
20:27 < kanzure_> I don't think we were going to do physical connections, that sounds too wrong to me .. gah.
20:27 < kanzure_> okay, I'll eat and read some logs if fenn wants to upload them.
20:27 < fenn> interfaces
20:27 < kanzure_> *I'll go eat
20:27 < kanzure_> something about interfaces, yes
20:28 < fenn> one order of fried logs comin up
20:28 < kanzure_> but were these automatically used interfaces or not?
20:28 < fenn> they're just there
20:28 < fenn> you hasattr() and see if it exists
20:28 < fenn> if not, give up
20:30 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/hplusroadmap.log-12-09-08.tgz
20:30 < samrose> I think I am going to keep a lot of my "stuff" out of your current work, and see if maybe I can help you with your current focus and goals instead
20:30 < fenn> what is your "stuff"?
20:31 < samrose> stuff that would derail your progress :)
20:31 < fenn> ok nevermind then
20:31 < jm> kanzure: don't repair, it's so meaningful regarding feynman and nanotech. This link is ART ;-)
20:31 < samrose> the basic work that you are doing now is more important than what I intend to do. I would rather help you all make progress with what you are workign on
20:32 < samrose> I can work on what I am working on seperately, and make it conform to what you are working on
20:32 < fenn> samrose: i will forward my original email to marcin about all this to you
20:33 < samrose> fenn: which person are you? "WHOIS" doesn't tell me
20:33 < fenn> ben lipkowitz
20:34 < samrose> ah, gotcha
20:34 < fenn> i wasnt very involved in openfarmtech
20:34 < fenn> too many projects
20:34 < samrose> My nephew is there living with them right now, and I am going to go out there starting this spring
20:36 < samrose> so far as I can see, I will try to use the skdb to do the work I was intending to do out there. I used to work as an engine machinist back in the 1990's and heavy machinery technician. Going to start mapping some of Marcin's projects
20:37 < Smari> can somebody explain skdb?
20:38 < fenn> sometimes i feel like i'm getting dumber as time goes on
20:38 < Smari> I can't be bothered to read the backlog
20:38 < fenn> sort of like merlin, the man who lived backwards
20:39 < fenn> Smari: its like apt-get, for "stuff"
20:39 < fenn> where stuff is jumbo jets and skyscrapers and robots
20:40 < fenn> so you agx-get jumbo-jet and it pulls in all the machinery needed to make it, or figures out how to order the pieces if your personality prefers that
20:40 < Smari> Yay
20:41 < fenn> but in order for this to happen there must be a huge interlinked database and code describing what processes make things possible
20:42 < fenn> so, skdb is the database
20:42 < fenn> we've settled on a distributed architecture though, which is very un-debian-like
20:43 < fenn> so i'm also planning to make a "distribution" called Autogenix which will pull in the best of the projects, apply compatibility fixes, and release a complete working system
20:46 < kanzure_> ideally this would be a replacement for 'fabuntu' as well .. an ubuntu for fablabs.
20:46 < fenn> well, fabuntu seems poorly defined
20:46 < kanzure_> another possible descriptor is a(n actual) open source hardware package manager.
20:46 < kanzure_> yes, true.
20:46 < fenn> fabuntu makes me think of an operating system
20:46 < fenn> tailored for fablabs
20:46 < kanzure_> it is one. remember, we were also originally considering ISAs for physical actuators and so on
20:47 < kanzure_> meaning stuff on /dev
20:47 < fenn> yeah the "compiler"
20:49 < kanzure_> "
20:49 < kanzure_> "
20:49 < kanzure_> Little minds have bigger minds, upon their backs to ride 'em.
20:49 < kanzure_> And bigger minds have bigger minds, and so ad infinitum."
20:50 < kanzure_> Okay, log reading mode.
20:57 < fenn> off to go survey my new hovel, please post any inspired tidbits
21:05 -!- nsh___ is now known as nsh
21:15 < Smari> Hahahahah, flatline!! http://www2.glitnir.is/Markadir/Hlutabref/Samantekt.aspx?Audkenni=EXISTA
21:28 < kanzure_> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/autogenix-format-v0.0.2.txt <- old.
21:29 < kanzure_> ah that's right, we were considering 'streams' for material flows and other dimensions and units
21:30 < kanzure_> but this doesn't answer our latest 'what was the interface between packages going to be' when there are specialized submethods 
21:41 < kanzure_> 7612 is interesting
21:41 < kanzure_> where'd I get that idea?
21:47 < kanzure_> I was talking about having specific unit testing suites. One for automobiles, another for classes of screws; these would be specific to the special member functions of everything that the unit tests cover.
21:47 < kanzure_> And project maintainers have to hardcode the calls to the specialized member functions of the objects that they are employing in their project, as a sort of build/make file for the template of the system.
21:48 < kanzure_> fenn: isn't that it? What more is missing ?
22:18 < kanzure_> 11016: "think of skdb as an aggregation layer and then autogenix as a way to query the aggregation layer to get stuff done"
22:25 < kanzure_> 10% of the file was written in three weeks?
22:27 < kanzure_> 11778: yaml intro
22:29 < kanzure_> Hrm. What about this? When there's a function that is described by the metadata, in terms of units and dimensions and so on, like a flow of some energy into some other energy form, we consider it "solved" if there are instructions for that package on how to make it. If these instructions are incomplete, then go fetch the packages that this package depends on, and serialize *those* instructions on how to make it (for either a human or machine). 
22:31 < kanzure_> "How it works" is just something to be left up to something that aggregates similar screws together and does different calculations across them. That's the matheamtical specialized subfunctions, optimization stuff, etc., not to be included in either a 'final project' with certain config, and it's not for instruction serialization (most definitely not - nobody would have confused this to begin with anyway).
22:32 < kanzure_> 11848: autospec
22:45 < kanzure_> 13310: yaml stuff..
22:49 < kanzure_> 13339: don't know what's going on here. 'Automatically selecting packages to solve autospec problems'. Overall sounds like a makefile generator, but it wants to also connect different packages together at the same time.
23:01 < kanzure_> This is stupid. Most of the conversation is about rather simple "fetch when a dependency is not found".
23:09 < kanzure_> 13832: wtf, I went back to the idea of a global simulator? Huh.
23:10 < kanzure_> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/autogenix-software.png
23:11 < kanzure_> samrose: that's worth viewing.
23:11  * samrose clicks
23:14 < kanzure_> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/autogenix-software2.png is of course the other version
23:16 < kanzure_> There's still some fuzziness in how things 'connect together' and how special member functions get used, but this is a roll for the package maintainer. (Also for fenn's further review when he gets back. I've been reading through the old logs.)
23:18 < kanzure_> 14111:  "20:19 < kanzure> remember, automated design is not our goal" <-- hahahah
23:26 < kanzure_> Hm. I should probably stop reading. I think I got the answer that I was looking for. But now I'm wondering about things like representing joints/fasteners in a 3D sense in the files. In Solidworks you mark up areas of your object as being applicable for allowing a screw to be inserted (it doesn't capitalize on this ability much). Perhaps something like that here, and then I think I can stop axsting.
23:26 < kanzure_> *anxsting
23:54 < kanzure_> 16928 has some ok stuff re: physical structures.