--- Day changed Tue Dec 16 2008
03:36 < gene> Kanzure whichh geonavigator
03:36 < kanzure> the one by the government
03:38 < gene> link?
04:02 < gene> so I found a cache of ultracapacitors, what would you do with them?
05:36 < fenn> well at least i'm 2 hours early, but wtf is MIT using PST?
05:37 < fenn> if anyone wants to read some forced verbiage: http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/mit-grad-app.html 
05:37 < fenn> skip down to "statement of objectives" unless you enjoy stalking me
05:38 < fenn> gene: what capacity/voltage/ESR
05:38 < gene> hell if I know
05:38 < fenn> well what do they look like
05:39 < gene> they are cylindrical
05:39 < fenn> how big
05:39 < gene> short
05:39 < fenn> gimme a fucking dimensional unit you ass hole
05:39 < fenn> or maybe you could go work at ADL :)
05:39 < gene> I estimate they are about a farad
05:40 < gene> about 1 centimeter tall
05:40 < fenn> ok so probably 5V computer battery replacement
05:40 < gene> yeah that sounds about it
05:40 < fenn> um.. make solar powered blinkies?
05:40 < gene> heh
05:40 < gene> good idea
05:41 < gene> got me a whole bunch of minisolar panels just lieing around
05:49 < kanzure> 1982? no fair, you're cheating.
05:52 < kanzure> my mother wants to come by tomorrow and clean the dorm room. :/
05:59 < fenn> i was born too soon
05:59 < fenn> have to put up with this stone age crap
05:59 < fenn> internal combustion engines? houses made of wood?
05:59 < kanzure> from my perspective I was born too late though, it would have been better to have been born in the 80s
05:59 < fenn> why the 80's?
06:00 < kanzure> everything leads back to the 80s for some reason
06:00 < fenn> i disagree
06:00 < kanzure> better music, good Star Wars,
06:00 < fenn> everything leads back to 1969
06:00 < kanzure> well that too :)
06:01 < kanzure> anywho, I'm really liking brlcad.
06:01 < fenn> because it has a command line? :)
06:01 < kanzure> yeah :)
06:01 < gene> so I can't find geonavigator
06:01 < kanzure> but I also know that this is just like the original cad systems
06:01 < kanzure> gene: I also said try geocommunicator
06:02 < kanzure> gene: as a backup, search for me + geocommunicator / geonavigator
06:02 < fenn> "original cad systems" being what, APT?
06:02 < fenn> sketchpad?
06:02 < kanzure> fenn: the downside is that I can't do rapid sketching of shapes. there's a shape editor mode, where I can do 2D sketches with segments and vertices, but you have to go back and click the buttons each time you place a vertex, etc.
06:02 < kanzure> not fun.
06:03 < fenn> ew
06:03 < fenn> can import dxf outlines though right?
06:03 < kanzure> it was my understanding that autocad from the 80s was a command line system essetnially
06:03 < kanzure> yes, there's dxf integration
06:03 < fenn> so complain about qcad instead :)
06:03 < kanzure> huh?
06:03 < fenn> free dxf cad program for linux
06:04 < fenn> nice snap-to and numerical specification of geometry
06:04 < kanzure> well there we go then.
06:04 < fenn> and for everything else, there's inkscape
06:04 < kanzure> isn't inkspace just an alternative to blender?
06:04 < fenn> no, it's a 2d SVG editor
06:05 < kanzure> well then.
06:05 < fenn> and totally awesome btw
06:06 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/sketches/emc-splash/fanuc-illust.png
06:06 < gene> oh qcad is awesome
06:06 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/sketches/emc-splash/m5i20.png
06:06 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/sketches/emc-splash/mazak.png
06:06 < gene> made some paper models with it
06:06 < kanzure> brlcad is well-scripted. can be done from bash, with tcl, or in the command window, so I'm thinking it might be nice to include a hook in in the skdb packaging.
06:06 < kanzure> especially since .g is nice and modular.
06:07 < gene> btw anyone know of anyway to make solidworks files to usable files
06:07 < kanzure> go to SAVE AS
06:07 < gene> no wonder the military uses it 
06:07 < fenn> i like this one, but nobody else seems to: http://fennetic.net/sketches/emc-splash/emc-lathe-chips.svg
06:07  * kanzure will check the images later. too lazy to move out of chair or something
06:08 < gene> lolz fenn
06:08 < fenn> myeh.. /me hunts up some food or something
06:08 < gene> on the last one
06:08 < fenn> gene: see how the chips say "emc"
06:08 < gene> no
06:08 < gene> I do now
06:08 < gene> hmmmm... I still need some damn tiny, damn accurate linear actuators
06:09 < fenn> pester phreedom to hurry up on his piezo thingy
06:11 < gene> I need more displacement that a piezo though
06:11 < fenn> it's an inchworm so it should move a few cm i think
06:11 < gene> but a piezo might be useful for another project
06:12 < gene> I want to do nuclear transfer
06:12 < Phreedom> right, piezos are very underestimated
06:12 < gene> transfer nuclear material
06:12 < Phreedom> and there are no distance limitations
06:13 < gene> there are size limitations though...
06:13 < fenn> Phreedom: any idea how fast it moves?
06:13 < gene> very fast fenn
06:13 < fenn> dimensional units please!
06:13 < Phreedom> gene: I'm not talking about using direct piezo expansion/contraction
06:14 < fenn> you are thinking acceleration anyway
06:14 < gene> I know
06:14 < Phreedom> gene: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelectric_motor
06:14 < gene> you're talking about inchworm
06:15 < Phreedom> gene: ok. not really. there are many different designs
06:15 < Phreedom> but the idea is more or less the same
06:15 < gene> I know what you mean
06:15 < Phreedom> fenn: speeds depend on load, how much wear you can tolerate and lots of other stuff
06:15 < gene> where do you get the elements?
06:15 < Phreedom> fenn: 0,1-0,4m/s is realistic
06:16 < fenn> that's pretty fast
06:16 < Phreedom> gene: can be made at home :) or if you need a small number, you can buy
06:16 < fenn> 10cm/s right?
06:16 < gene> how do you make them at home?
06:17 < Phreedom> fenn: but for a motor that lasts, exerts a significant force, I'll be closer to 0,1m/s
06:17 < Phreedom> fenn: yes
06:17 < fenn> how large is it?
06:17 < fenn> and what is the power supply like?
06:17 < fenn> or driver or whatever you call it
06:17 < Phreedom> gene: the same way they make it at a fab: you need PZT powder(made by mill or hydrothermal), press(carjack will do) and a furnace
06:18 < gene> heh carjacj
06:18 < gene> *carjack
06:18 < fenn> jack = hydraulic cylinder, what's funny about that?
06:18 < Phreedom> fenn: 50-100g of PZT(density:7.6-7.8), some metal
06:18 < Phreedom> gene: carjack is poor man's press
06:18 < Phreedom> they're really cheap
06:19 < fenn> Phreedom: no i mean the dimensions of the system
06:19 < gene> I would have never though
06:19 < gene> t
06:19 < fenn> like, a stepper motor is about 40mm cube
06:19 < Phreedom> fenn: lol
06:19 < gene> I have a ball mill under my sink, I just need a car jack and a furnace
06:20 < Phreedom> fenn:  3-5cm diameter couple cm height tube
06:20 < fenn> ok
06:20 < fenn> how much power to make it move?
06:21 < Phreedom> fenn: oh and drivers, these are very low power so several low-power high-voltage half-bridges + MCU will do
06:21 < Phreedom> fenn: 10-15 watts per motor will be sufficient
06:22 < Phreedom> fenn: efficiency is likely to be 50%+ so input power will be 20-30 watts/motor
06:22 < fenn> how high voltage? is this mosfet territory?
06:22 < Phreedom> fenn:  1000V is mosfet territory too ;)
06:22 < fenn> well, they make them, but they suck
06:22 < Phreedom> fenn: you can use FETs or Bipolar, whatever is cheaper
06:23 < fenn> for high voltage IGBT is best i think
06:23 < fenn> unless you need stupid quick turn on times
06:23 < Phreedom> fenn: as I said I probably need low price the most ;)
06:23 < Phreedom> everything else is a bonus
06:24 < fenn> hmm ok i understand
06:24 < Phreedom> I mean the performance of the driver isn't very critical at these power levels
06:24 < fenn> my only search into mosfet/igbt was for ~300V electric car controller
06:25 < Phreedom> and a 15w loaded motor moving at 0,1 m/s = 150N of force, two motors per axis... this is way too powerful for a desktop machine :)
06:26 < fenn> if it works at all...
06:26 < Phreedom> right:)
06:26 < fenn> do you think machined micro-grooves as sort of ratchet teeth might help?
06:27 < Phreedom> fenn: for what?
06:27 < fenn> reducing wear
06:27 < Phreedom> fenn: not sure. time will tell
06:28 < fenn> btw you have seen the "squiggle" motor right?
06:29 < Phreedom> fenn: actually I'm betting on a different approach to wear. The idea is to have a hard, eg chrome coating, which can be easily recoated as a service routine. So if it doesn't have to happen way too often, it's a good approach to the problem
06:29 < Phreedom> quality commercial motors guarantee several thousand hours of operation
06:30 < Phreedom> which means this might be a good approach after all
06:30 < Phreedom> fenn: no. googling
06:31 < Phreedom> fenn: looks nice
06:31 < Phreedom> fenn: thre are tons of new designs pooping up everywhere right now
06:31 < Phreedom> fenn: all I can say is that piezos are hot
06:31 < Phreedom> :)
06:35 < Phreedom> fenn: the trouble of all these mini and micro piezo designs is wear. they aren't very optimized in this regard due to having other design goals
06:41 < Phreedom> fenn: http://www.piezo-motor.net/
06:48 < Phreedom> fenn: http://www.piezo.lt/  does it reming you of anything? ;)
06:49 < gene> WOW that is amazing
06:50 < Phreedom> piezo motor stuff isn't very new... but it's been very obscure
06:50 < gene> you might have fun with our labs sonicator
06:50 < gene> a high power ultrasonic sound source
06:53 < Phreedom> gene: I'm too far away to enjoy it ;)
06:53 < gene> heh
06:54 < gene> it does show signs of damage though
06:54 < gene> biologists apparently aren't very keen on treating their equipment well
07:26 < fenn_> wah
07:26 -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn
07:31 < Phreedom> a piece of good enginering: http://www.break.com/index/failed-chinese-crash-test.html
07:36 < gene> heh
07:36 < gene> that's a classic
10:19 < willPow3r> http://goats.com/store/elephants.html
19:12 < kanzure_> Hello.
19:29 < kanzure_> http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/12/not-taking-over.html <- Evidence that he is, in fact, trying to take over the world.
19:29 < kanzure_> "NOT TAKING OVER THE WORLD" <- in other words, yes he is
19:30 < kanzure_> I think the situation in which this "unlimited power" that he speaks of, will arise in a particular situation and context, in which technicalities not so much "limit" the available actions but rather restrain (but also enable/empower) types of architectures that aren't so black and white. I'm not going to argue this though.
19:31 < kanzure_> basically he's asking the "what to do" question ..
19:32 < kanzure_> http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/12/not-taking-over.html#comment-142855078
19:45 < kanzure_> Phreedom: nepomuk just hit slashdot.
19:51 < gene> what's so bad about taking over the world?
19:53 < kanzure_> "who polices the police"
19:53 < kanzure_> (ad infinitum)
19:53 < gene> the people
19:53 < gene> that's who
19:53 < kanzure_> so why are people being policed?
19:54 < kanzure_> and who polices the policers?
19:54 < bkero> We did
19:54 < gene> system crash
19:54 < bkero> Nobody does now
19:55 < gene> I'm all for AI government
19:55 < kanzure_> why?
19:55 < gene> because humans are dumb
19:55 < gene> at least enhanced human
19:56 < kanzure_> so what if they are dumb? Are you going to force everybody to upgrade, too?
19:56 < gene> nah
19:57 < kanzure_> Anyway, I don't know why you would want to install a dictator when other options exist - like ensuring you're using a good redundancy strategy instead of putting all of your eggs in one basket.
20:00 < gene> good idea
20:02 < bkero> http://www.coda.cs.cmu.edu/ljpaper/lj.html hawt hawt hawt
20:04 < Phreedom> kanzure_: thanks
20:40 < kanzure_> I need a super-fast introduction to Tcl. Maybe I should go read some code results from koders.com or Google codesearch?
20:40 < bkero> TCL is obsolete crap :/
20:40 < gene> and I need a superaccurate linear actuator
20:40 < gene> go figure
20:41 < kanzure_> bkero: No argument there, but the interpreter is Tcl.
20:41 < kanzure_> http://www.google.com/codesearch?as_q=&btnG=Search+Code&hl=en&as_lang=tcl&as_license_restrict=i&as_license=&as_package=&as_filename=&as_case=
20:41 < kanzure_> google finds 198k files.
20:41 < kanzure_> not bad.
20:41 < bkero> kanzure_: Fucking army using old crap :(
20:42 < kanzure_> my alternative is to use bash scripting, but from what I can tell I can't execute the 'oed' command because I need to 'draw' an object first (wtf)
20:44 < kanzure_> Okay, nevermind. It works now.
20:44 < kanzure_> See? No tcl.
20:44 < gene> the arny uses old crap
20:45 < gene> interesting
20:55 < kanzure_> I did find it nice how the brlcad configure script warned me about my noncompliance with IEEE 764.
21:05 < bkero> wtf is ieee 764?
21:11 < kanzure_> floating point multiplication :p
21:42 < fenn> bkero: does coda do versioning and branching? or is it just focused on "magically" merging everything from everyone
21:47 < bkero> fenn: It's just a filesystem.  You want a revision control system.  Use git.
21:48 < bkero> It uses a transaction-based system.  I'm not sure how it handles merging.
21:48 < fenn> i want a versioning file system dammit
21:49 < bkero> There are tons
21:49 < bkero> Use fuse
21:49 < fenn> fuse is just an abstraction layer
21:49 < bkero> There are tons written in fuse
21:49 < fenn> ok. any recommendations?
21:49 < bkero> I know.  I wrote a FUSE filesystem for work last week.
21:50 < bkero> Nope, haven't used any.  They're listed as examples on FUSE's site.
21:59 < fenn> hey i was talking about this a couple weeks ago: "hierfs - a simple way of managing a vast amount of data over multiple CD-R media by simulating all files on the CDs as if they were online on the harddisk."
22:02 < fenn> so, i didnt see a single versioning filesystem on this page: http://apps.sourceforge.net/mediawiki/fuse/index.php?title=FileSystems
22:02 < fenn> i did find one on google; "copyfs"
22:07 < kanzure_> gene: http://heybryan.org/bioreactor/membraneless_filtration/2008-12-16_spiral_generator_works.png
22:08 < gene> it's beautiful
22:08 < kanzure_> and somewhat wrong
22:08 < gene> but why's it made of blocks
22:08 < gene> oh
22:08 < kanzure_> why are my cross-sections lacking left-hand boundary
22:08 < gene> brlcad
22:08 < gene> right?
22:08 < kanzure_> yes, but the blockyness is just because I'm doing it at a low resolution (1000 cross sections)
22:09 < kanzure_> just need to do a bit of touchup on the cross section stuff (I was doing it blind, so, I'll fix that)
22:09 < kanzure_> and then implement (1) narrowing/widening of the cross sections, and (2) a delta z. 
22:10 < fenn> blocks?
22:10 < kanzure_> well, it's supposed to be a rectangle with a rectangle inside of it and subtracted from it
22:10 < kanzure_> so that it would be a window frame
22:10 < fenn> can't you just import a dxf outline?
22:10 < gene> wait what are you using brl cad?
22:10 < fenn> or is that not cool enuf
22:11 < kanzure_> fenn: an outline of what?
22:11 < fenn> the spiral
22:11 < kanzure_> I'd like a generator :/
22:11 < fenn> what's a generator?
22:11 < kanzure_> ./spiral --make-me-a-spiral
22:11 < kanzure_> gene: yes, I'm using brlcad
22:11 < kanzure_> except without using it
22:11 < kanzure_> i.e., this is scripted
22:12 < fenn> abusing it, is more likely
22:12 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/bioreactor/membraneless_filtration/spiral_generator.pl
22:12 < kanzure_> yes. tjos os anisove 
22:12 < kanzure_> *this is abusive
22:12 < kanzure_> I'm calling mged on every cross section, which is stupid because it causes a thousand hdd r/w cycles
22:12 < kanzure_> but apparently when I saved all of the commands to be done at once, something blew up (I'll try it again in a moment)
22:13 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/bioreactor/membraneless_filtration/spiral.g
22:13 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/bioreactor/membraneless_filtration/spiral.g.stl (warning: 5 MB)
22:15 < kanzure_> o epmfet og oy od rsu yp tesf yrcy ejrm oy od yu[rf gtp, pmr ;omr pbrt gtp, ejrtr oy od idis;;u ,rsmy yp nr
22:15 < kanzure_> heh, nevermind
22:15 < fenn> g-stl converts from .g to .stl right?
22:16 < gene> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
22:17 < kanzure_> fenn: yep
22:17 < kanzure_> fenn: g-<tab> is an interesting list.
22:18 < kanzure_> gene: I read it outloud and a beast appeared. is this bad?
22:18 < gene> YES!
22:19 < gene> how much firepower do you have within five feet!
22:19 < kanzure_> 2.6 GHz
22:19 < gene> SHOOT IT!
22:19 < gene> DON"T TYPE SHOOT
22:20 < fenn> the power of euclidean geometry compels you!
22:20 < kanzure_> "i'll take your square root any day."
22:21 < gene> QUICK generate euclidean geometry in BRL cad
22:21 < kanzure_> gene: be sure to read the .pl file. it's crap, but at least so that you know what's going on.
22:22 < gene> you know I probably should read that cthulu book
22:23 < fenn> nah it's lame
22:23 < kanzure_> okay
22:23 < kanzure_> well, here's why it looks so bad
22:23 < kanzure_> apparently I was doing the wrong orientation
22:24 < kanzure_> the top view is supposed to be the front view.
22:24 < gene> ok
22:24  * kanzure_ fixes.
22:27 < kanzure_> blah, qorot doesn't like zerovalue vectors.
22:28 < gene> I don't like zerovalue vectors
22:31 < gene> they seem pointless to me
22:34 < kanzure_> that's it mister, you either eat all of your vector-o's or no dinner.
23:57 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/bioreactor/membraneless_filtration/2008-12-16_spiral_generator_2.png
23:57 < kanzure_> so I think I'm not considering something
23:57 < kanzure_> as you get to the outer rings of the spiral, the distance between the cross-sections is increasing
23:57 < kanzure_> which is bad.
23:58 < kanzure_> Anyway, a nice problem to solve.