--- Day changed Sun Dec 21 2008 02:18 < kanzure_> PeerInfinity: did you see my cosmeng post? 02:34 < gene> you there kanzure? 02:35 < kanzure_> no 02:43 < gene> oh ok 04:13 < kanzure_> fenn: do you remember if you got a good lead on the xmms2 demo ogg? 04:23 < xp_prg> hi all :> 04:42 < willPow3r> whats happening xp_prg? 04:43 < xp_prg> redoing my website in flash :> 04:43 < xp_prg> what you doing? 04:45 < willPow3r> going over some mit opencourseware 04:45 < willPow3r> the lag between semesters makes my brain go to mush 04:45 < willPow3r> so i need to keep it active 04:47 < xp_prg> what is your major? 04:47 < willPow3r> neuroscience, but im really studying for neural engineering 04:47 < willPow3r> u in school? 04:49 < xp_prg> nope done, I work now 04:49 < willPow3r> where do you work? 04:50 < xp_prg> a small web development company in the bay area of ca 04:50 < xp_prg> do you know synthetic biology well? 04:52 < kanzure_> I think Gavin Fauss is William Abaris. 04:55 < willPow3r> im not sure if i know either of those people 04:55 < willPow3r> what 04:55 < willPow3r> what's their significance? 04:57 < fenn> "Ah, the smell of new pseudonym." 05:07 < kanzure_> if only I magically knew everything about brlcad. 05:12 < xp_prg> what is brlcad? 05:18 < kanzure_> xp_prg: http://brlcad.org/ 05:18 < kanzure_> open source CAD app. 05:18 < kanzure_> ideally I'd know how to draw various objects off the top of my head, but the help interface for the commands isn't intuitive to me [yet] 05:18 < kanzure_> will be soon though. am wokring on that. 05:19 < gene> kanzure, I think we just need to make something in solidwerks or what not 05:19 < kanzure_> what are you talking about 05:19 < kanzure_> for om? that's retarded, solidworks is proprietary 05:19 < gene> oh 05:20 < gene> you're doing om stuff 05:20 < gene> ok 05:20 < gene> http://www.hnsa.org/doc/op1140/index.htm 05:20 < kanzure_> yes. 05:20 < kanzure_> what's the link to? 05:20 < gene> analog computers anyone? 05:20 < kanzure_> vacuum tubes? 05:20 < gene> the basics of mechanical analog computing 05:21 < gene> or a book on mechanical fire control mechanisms 05:21 < kanzure_> there's a way to write a program to convert VLSI/Verilog into gears and other mechanical computing elements 05:21 < gene> yeah and this is how 05:21 < kanzure_> "a way to write a program" 05:21 < kanzure_> this looks more like a book describing computing elements in mechanical forms 05:21 < kanzure_> which is related, but not the same thing. 05:22 < gene> step one make blue prints, step two give blueprints to machinist and have him compile the program 05:23 < gene> I'm thinking of making a business card that is a computer 05:23 < kanzure_> no, step one is write the program 05:23 < kanzure_> this is the same idea as the programs that convert C/C++ into neurons 05:23 < kanzure_> the p-machines thing man from the U.K. was a nice example way the hell back when 05:24 < gene> they have things that do that? 05:24 < kanzure_> programs being converted into specific networks of connected discrete components, in this case apparently [simulated neurons] 05:24 < gene> oh 05:24 < kanzure_> the schematics can be generated, is my point. 05:24 < gene> simulated neurons 05:24 < kanzure_> that's what EDA is, anyway 05:24 < kanzure_> electronic design automation. 05:24 < gene> my dad does that 05:24 < kanzure_> except machinists don't read the schematics, since everything's too tiny to work with large bulky man hands 05:25 < gene> well you have mechanical cicuitry 05:25 < gene> can have mechanical circuitry 05:26 < kanzure_> hahah. on a yahoo group about space-based solar power: "well given the obama administration, I highly doubt SSP will be a serious consideration. obama will probably try to use vegetable oil based propulsion" 05:26 < kanzure_> so many things wrong with that statement. 05:27 < gene> yeah they forgot the H2O2 oxidizer 05:27 < gene> hmmmm.... we should try making an algae-diesel rocket 05:27 < kanzure_> yeah, John Carmack and friends were discussing that the other day on the arocket mailing list 05:27 < gene> really? 05:27 < kanzure_> apparently the California folks were getting their freezing temps, and some of them didn't know to keep their biodiesel warm 05:28 < gene> oops 05:28 < kanzure_> yeah, these are the XCOR/SpaceX/Armadillo Aerospace people 05:28 < gene> ah shoot 05:28 < gene> does algae diesel have that problem? 05:28 < kanzure_> you mean biodiesel? 05:28 < kanzure_> they were talking about biodiesel in general. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't matter whether or not it came from algae. 05:28 < gene> as in diesel made from algae 05:29 < kanzure_> bkero: the blend proportions would be the only thing that matter here, right? 05:29 < gene> dang, the analog computing manual is a navy manual, which means it's written in idiot's guide style, it's nearly impossible to not learn 05:30 < kanzure_> maybe if you try really hard you can pretend to not learn. 05:31 < bkero> ? 05:31 < kanzure_> but yeah, the brlcad manual is written in that style too 05:31 < bkero> Blend with what? 05:31 < kanzure_> I've read a lot of military documents in that style 05:31 < kanzure_> bkero: in biodiesel. the 'bp' is blend, right? 05:31 < bkero> I'd assume 05:31 < bkero> I've just run straight oil extract 05:31 < bkero> Some folks mix it with kerosene 05:31 < kanzure_> temperature sensitivity issues? 05:31 < bkero> Tank warmers 05:31 < bkero> :P 05:32 < bkero> That's what all diesels do 05:32 < kanzure_> ah. 05:32 < bkero> Just small resistor packs next to the tank 05:33 < gene> really all diesels have tank warmers, even big trucks? 05:33 < bkero> Some people mix it with things to boost the octane levels 05:33 < bkero> Yes 05:33 < gene> that's a relief 05:34 < bkero> It's completely simple 05:34 < bkero> Grow algae, extract oil with hexane bath, or heated press 05:34 < bkero> Fill tank 05:34 < bkero> Run 05:35 < gene> HAHAHAHAHAHA 05:35 < bkero> ? 05:35 < gene> we don't use hexane baths 05:35 < bkero> Why not? 05:35 < gene> it's wasteful 05:36 < bkero> it's also efficient 05:36 < gene> do you work with alga-diesel too bkero? 05:36 < bkero> Hexane is ~98% efficient compared to a heated press, which at best is 70%.1.1 05:37 < bkero> (ignore the .1.1) 05:37 < bkero> I have 05:37 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 17 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 17 normal] 05:37 < bkero> I'm trying to get kanzure_ to send me some oil-rich algae prints 05:37 < gene> there are much better ways of doing things 05:38 < bkero> Like what? 05:39 < gene> a billion tiny knives 05:40 < bkero> So cut and pressure 05:40 < bkero> lol make an array of boxcutter blades 05:41 < gene> exactly 05:42 < gene> you need really small boxcutter blades thought 05:42 < bkero> Has anybody tried that? 05:42 < gene> that's the hard part 05:42 < bkero> How efficient is it? 05:42 < gene> uL/min 05:43 < kanzure_> search for 'nanoknives' and berkeley. 05:43 < gene> like I guess 100% 05:43 < bkero> microliters per minute? 05:43 < kanzure_> or 'bead mills' 05:43 < gene> yup 05:43 < kanzure_> bead mills do better than microliters per minute 05:43 < kanzure_> nobody has done a bead mill of nanoknives 05:44 < gene> bad idea kanzure 05:44 < gene> very bad idea 05:44 < gene> how do you get the knives out? 05:44 < bkero> Sounds complicated to set up 05:44 < kanzure_> bkero: hah, as if buying hexane is cheap? 05:44 < bkero> Would that even be possible for me to build? 05:44 < gene> ever grown algae for biofuel bkero? 05:44 < bkero> Aye 05:45 < gene> is that a yes? 05:45 < bkero> Yes 05:45 < gene> what species? 05:45 < bkero> No idea. Whatever was native to the pond near me :P 05:45 < bkero> Wasn't very many lipids to extract 05:46 < gene> oh ok, so you did this on a hobbyist scale? 05:46 < bkero> Which is why I was pestering kanzure_ to see if I could get something with higher oil density. 05:46 < bkero> What would a hobbist scale be? 05:47 < gene> not done with a company or research group or funded by a grant 05:47 < bkero> So no external funding = hobbist scale? 05:47 < kanzure_> but that tells you nothing about volume.. 05:47 < bkero> Yea. 05:47 < kanzure_> wtfc 05:47 < gene> fishtank size bioreactors, ponds 05:47 < bkero> If I did it with giant septic tanks and produced acres of algae 05:47 < bkero> Would that still be hobbist scale? 05:48 < gene> no 05:48 < bkero> So I wouldn't necessarily corrolate funding with scale 05:48 < gene> we might be able to get you some high lipid content species 05:48 < gene> but they aren't native 05:49 < gene> which is bad, very, very bad if they get into the environment 05:49 < bkero> Wouldn't matter, I've got a pretty sterile environment for it to grow, so there shouldn't be any problem with heartier native species impacting it 05:49 < bkero> There's no real bodies of water for them to grow near me. 05:49 < gene> that doesn't matter 05:49 < bkero> But yea, I understand the implications of disposal. 05:50 < gene> it might escape by migratory birds or what not 05:50 < gene> plus, I don't think we can give free samples 05:51 < bkero> Hum 05:51 < gene> but if you contact us in a couple of months we might have a super algae harvester to sell to you 05:51 < kanzure_> what the fuck are you talking about 05:51 < kanzure_> fuck this shit 05:51 * kanzure_ pad locks his refridgerator with samples 05:51 < bkero> Hehe 05:52 < gene> cool you took some samples kanzure? 05:52 < kanzure_> uh, actually I don't remember 05:52 < kanzure_> I might have. I should double check everything. 05:52 < bkero> I'm gonna have to set up another automated growing environment. Dismantled it when I moved. 05:53 < bkero> CO2 tank and an air compressor with check valves and servo-controlled bleeder valves 05:53 < kanzure_> blah, why don't we have servo-controlled valves yet, gene? 05:53 < kanzure_> that would be a good reason to get an arduino, pic or some other board 05:53 < gene> can you program arduino 05:54 < kanzure_> uh yes? 05:54 < bkero> Servo controlled valves are the only way to do it :) 05:54 < gene> because the people who lead the project are biologists 05:54 * kanzure_ has done microcontroller programming :) 05:54 < bkero> Plus there's tons of open source microcontrollers out there 05:54 < bkero> Arduino clones are $17 05:54 < kanzure_> gene: maybe we could just ask sata to buy them 05:54 < gene> heh 05:54 < kanzure_> bkero: yeah yeah yeah, no need to preach to me :) 05:54 < bkero> Servo's and circuits to control them are less than $10 05:54 < gene> did you make it yourself bkero? 05:54 < kanzure_> servo valves aren't anything special, are they? 05:54 < bkero> Nothing special 05:54 < bkero> gene: yea 05:55 < bkero> I used a BASIC Stamp for mine 05:55 < gene> servo valves, why not go for solenoid valves? 05:55 < kanzure_> I mean, the way the biologists assembled this setup was "ok, here's a bin of randomass valves" 05:55 < bkero> But that was before Arduinos were popular 05:55 < kanzure_> parallax? 05:55 < kanzure_> :( 05:55 < bkero> gene: solenoids are binary while servo controlled bleeders are adjustable 05:55 < gene> really 05:56 < gene> never heard of bleeder valves before 05:56 < bkero> I mean, I guess I could hook up a timer and have it open and close really fast, but that's not what solenoids were for 05:56 < bkero> Bleeder valves are what you use on car brakes to bleed them 05:56 < bkero> It's essentially a check valve 05:56 < gene> I've made air cannons with solenoid valves so I have a fondness for them 05:57 < bkero> It's basically so I can inject air/co2 and not worry about having them come in contact with the metal on the bottle/compressor 05:57 < bkero> A diode for fluids/gasses, if you will. 05:57 < gene> huh? 05:58 < gene> so it doesn't get corroded? 05:58 < bkero> Yea 05:58 < gene> due to carbonic acid formation 05:58 < kanzure_> wait, I thought this was a basic concept 05:58 < kanzure_> servo valves seem more intuitive to me 05:58 < kanzure_> I'll be quiet. :p 05:58 < gene> well if you can program it and make it safe kanzure 05:58 < bkero> The order goes (co2 tank)->servo valve->check valve->algae 05:59 < kanzure_> http://www.ntsb.gov/events/usair427/valve_2.jpg 05:59 < gene> the grow chamber door is like air tight, a CO2 leak could be fatal 05:59 < kanzure_> http://npgroup.pd.infn.it/euroball/autofill/flux_box.gif 06:01 < bkero> Just be sure your valve and servo motor have enough torque to combat the water pressure 06:01 < bkero> weight of the water, whatever 06:01 < gene> are you putting water through it 06:02 < bkero> No, but you potentially have tens of gallons on one end of it, and potentially 125psi of air on the other side 06:02 < gene> 125 psi isn't too bad 06:03 < bkero> Just depends on how much you awnt to keep in your compressor tank 06:03 < gene> almost forgot, Kanzure, walmart sells GFP and RFP, just not in a very pure form 06:04 < gene> might be useful for biohacking 06:04 < bkero> GFP/RFP? 06:04 < kanzure_> hm 06:04 < kanzure_> where's meredith? 06:04 < kanzure_> she was working on some GFP+yeast stuff 06:04 < gene> green fluorescent protein and red fluorescent protein 06:04 < kanzure_> glow in the dark yeast 06:04 < gene> walmart sells glow in the dark fish 06:04 < kanzure_> although she was working on just expressing the gene really 06:05 < kanzure_> in the yeast for the yogurt 06:05 < kanzure_> erm, bacteria 06:05 < gene> HAHAHAHA 06:05 < kanzure_> not yeast 06:05 < bkero> For staining? 06:05 < gene> acidophillus? 06:05 < kanzure_> for glow in the dark yogurt 06:05 < gene> good luck getting that past the FDA 06:05 < kanzure_> don't know. she might be awake in #diybio 06:05 < kanzure_> nope, nevermind 06:05 < bkero> Heh 06:06 < gene> who is meredith? 06:06 < gene> bioartist or biohacker? 06:06 < kanzure_> hacker 06:06 < gene> ok that tells me a lot 06:06 < kanzure_> she's like me, except with time on her hands 06:06 < kanzure_> and money 06:07 < kanzure_> she posts occassionally to the diybio mailing list 06:07 < bkero> kanzure_: That's impressive. Marry her. 06:07 < kanzure_> good friend of bram cohen.. 06:07 < kanzure_> she's married already to a friend of bram :) 06:07 < bkero> Heh 06:07 < gene> money really 06:07 < kanzure_> not really 06:08 < kanzure_> "Bram Cohen (born 1975) is an American computer programmer, best known as the author of the peer-to-peer (P2P) BitTorrent protocol, as well as the first file sharing program to use the protocol, also known as BitTorrent. He is also the co-founder of CodeCon, organizer of the San Francisco Bay Area P2P-hackers meeting, and the co-author of Codeville." 06:08 < gene> you mean she does that for a company 06:08 < kanzure_> no 06:08 < kanzure_> she does it for the hell of it, 06:08 < gene> damn 06:08 < kanzure_> but I mean that she at least has a little cash to go fetch a refridgerator or something 06:08 < gene> or enzymes 06:08 < kanzure_> 'cept she can hardly get people to ship to her 06:08 < kanzure_> so anyway. 06:08 < kanzure_> the Vermont stuff might change some of that 06:09 < gene> hahahaha 06:09 < kanzure_> re: virtual incorporation. 06:09 < gene> of course 06:09 < kanzure_> yeah.. 06:09 < gene> we can't ship to you, you might be a trrrist 06:09 < kanzure_> trrist, is that a racial slur? 06:09 < kanzure_> heh 06:09 < gene> yeah, someone told me to do that 06:10 < gene> on instructables 06:10 < gene> they wanted to know if I was a biohacker 06:10 < bkero> lol 06:10 < gene> there was something highly suspicious about it... 06:10 < bkero> Biohackers are the new 'cool' thing. 06:11 < gene> not everyone thinks biohackers are cool 06:11 < gene> especially not DHS 06:11 < bkero> Yea 06:12 < bkero> Well, easy-to-startle republicans wouldn't, I'm sure. 06:12 < gene> but we can't do biohackery without enzymes and knowledge 06:12 < bkero> and the religious zealots might take offense to mucking about with biology in general 06:12 < gene> yeah I was about to say that 06:12 < bkero> But hopefully nobody cares about them 06:12 < kanzure_> "omg! biology! holy shit, don't anybody tell me about sex" 06:13 < bkero> Religion was a good explanation back in the dark ages, but now we have better methods. 06:13 < gene> I'm thinking of posting some highly disruptive diy tech online that might freak those types out 06:13 < kanzure_> gene: kinda like http://biohack.sf.net/ eh? 06:13 < kanzure_> *cough* beat you to it *cough* 06:13 < gene> not even close 06:13 < kanzure_> ppft. what could be more disruptive? 06:13 < gene> more likely to be considered unethical 06:13 < bkero> gene: I'd recommend it 06:14 < bkero> Then again, I'm morally and ethically bankrupt. 06:14 < kanzure_> you get no points if you don't specify what it is. 06:14 < gene> well, first off it may not be possible to do cheaply 06:14 < bkero> There aren't many things that you can'd do cheaply :P 06:15 < gene> 2 it involves chemicals that might be hard to obtain 06:15 < gene> 3 it would be gross to test 06:16 < gene> it's not very transhumanist either 06:16 < bkero> I think you should do it, then do a complete writeup and publish :) 06:17 < bkero> Or post it online and get someone(or many people) to do it for you. 06:18 < gene> heh I wonder who would actually be willing to test it 06:19 < bkero> I'd do it if I can get the correct supplies from chem stores and the lab surplus store here, and find it interesting enough :P 06:19 < bkero> (and if I understand it) :P 06:19 < bkero> Sometimes I can be a bit thick. 06:19 < gene> I don't think you'd want to do it 06:23 < gene> but another thing I have been thinking of doing is nuclear transfer cloning 06:36 < fenn> yo plebes, i'm thinking of posting some highly disruptive recipes online, that would totally freak the gourmet scene out. but I dont think you'd want to eat it, so I won't even tell you what it is 06:36 < gene> so is it possible to fluorescent flow cytometry at home? 06:36 < fenn> of course 06:36 < fenn> 1) buy a flow cytometer 06:36 < fenn> 2) ??? 06:36 < fenn> 3) Profit! 06:36 < gene> ie with a diy cytometer 06:37 < gene> fenn I have a reason for not telling what it is 06:37 < fenn> they're just inkjet printers combined with a static electricity generator and some coils and fast light sensors 06:37 < fenn> piece of cake right? 06:37 < gene> yeah, I think you forgot the laser part and the dye part 06:38 < fenn> yeah whatever 06:38 < fenn> they do it with diamonds all the time 06:38 < gene> I need Hoechst 33342 06:39 < gene> this requirement severly limits the disruptiveness 06:39 < gene> and the laser 06:39 < gene> but that might not be a problem 06:40 < fenn> sounds ... carcinogenic 06:41 < fenn> so, nuclear transfer, DIY flow cytometry, DNA stain... where's he going with this 06:42 < gene> nuclear transfer is unrelated 06:43 < gene> damn you might be right about the inkjet cartridge fend 06:43 < gene> fenn, I don't think you'd have any use for it 06:44 < fenn> O RLY 06:45 < gene> YA RLY 06:45 < fenn> w/e 06:46 < gene> you wouldn't even want to test it out 06:46 < gene> let's end it right there 06:46 < gene> it isn 06:47 < gene> 't even well thought out 07:17 < gene> in other words I don't have a recipe 08:36 < fenn> hmm this is interesting, especially since all you need is an accelerometer or other 2d-no-buttons interface 08:36 < fenn> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Qwo 08:39 < fenn> you could write with your eye movement for example 09:02 < fenn> stuffed animal cad.. this seems quite useful for inflatable structures in general: http://www.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~yuki/plushie/index-e.html 09:03 < fenn> and brainwashing children of course.. muwahahahaha 09:05 < fenn> pepakura yadda yadda 09:12 < fenn> i should write a program to do quikwrite on an avr with a 9 button keypad (or a reverse biased LED array ooooo) 09:21 < bkero> fenn: That looks insanely awkward 09:23 < fenn> try the java demo 09:23 < fenn> http://mrl.nyu.edu/projects/quikwriting/Quikwrite2.html 09:23 < fenn> to type 'k' you "press" 5 1 3 5 09:24 < fenn> it's a lot harder to explain than to learn 09:26 < fenn> this seems to me, to be supremely useful in a wearable heads-up display 09:26 < fenn> especially if there were a 'tab' key ;) 09:27 < fenn> space twice could work 12:22 < fenn> huh. this is pretty close to hexegrity: http://mrl.nyu.edu/~perlin/experiments/demos/Platform.html 12:56 < fenn> rawr why dont we have embedded python apps in browsers yet 12:57 < UtopiahGHML> Pylons? 12:58 < fenn> that 12:58 < fenn> is server side. i'm talking about client side, like "click the cow to win a prize" crap 12:59 < UtopiahGHML> you can embed that in a webserver like XAMPP or lighter packages 12:59 < fenn> apparently grail.sf.net is a sort of java incomatibility layer 13:00 < fenn> UtopiahGHML you are off in left field 13:01 < UtopiahGHML> running a python app or running in the browser from a webserver, what else do you need? 13:01 < UtopiahGHML> they are even some ways (experimental I guess) to run in a JVM AFAIK 13:02 < fenn>