--- Day changed Fri Dec 26 2008
00:26  * kanzure_ sleeps.
00:38 < gene> Sleep is for slackers
00:46 < kanzure_> Sleep is for the weak
00:47 < bkero> kanzure_: That's generally what happens when you get news coverage.
00:47 < bkero> Especially AP and slashdot.
00:47 < kanzure_> I've got Slashdot coverage before, but not AP.
00:47 < kanzure_> AP >>>> Slashdot in terms of distribution.
00:48 < kanzure_> I like one of the Slashdot comments:
00:48 < kanzure_> "Bah, nothing good will come from garages!"
00:48 < kanzure_> "I was conceived in a garage, you insensitive clod!"
00:49 < gene> heh it made fark too, got a scary tag
00:52 < bkero> Bah
00:52 < bkero> Fundies scared of a little engineering
00:52 < gene> and idiots
00:52 < bkero> I just hope that the gov't doesn't start cracking down at at-home science.
00:53 < bkero> You already need a physicians license to order some medical equipment. :(
00:55 < kanzure_> Deadly.
00:55 < bkero> My ass is deadly.  Motorcycles are deadly.  People are wimps.
00:57 < kanzure_> http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/7lom8/amateurs_are_trying_genetic_engineering_at_home/
00:59 < gene> where I live it's illegal to sell glassware, but that doesn't stop fry's from selling it
01:02 < bkero> glassware?  You're kidding.  that's just stupid.
01:02 < gene> I live in texas
01:02 < gene> go figure
01:02 < bkero> Why stop from selling glass?
01:02 < gene> oh I forgot to say scientific glassware
01:03 < gene> you know in maryland it's harder to get a flask than it is to get a gun
01:03 < bkero> Yea I just go to the campus surplus store here
01:03 < bkero> Wash them out and stick 'em in an autoclave and they're pretty good.
01:03 < gene> THERE IS SUCH A THING AS A CAMPUS SURPLUS STORE?
01:04 < kanzure_> the 1989 act, 71st Leg., ch. 678, Sec. 1,
01:04 < kanzure_> eff. Sept. 1, 1989. Sec. 481.002.53.H.
01:04 < kanzure_> that's where the texas-flask bullshit comes from.
01:04 < gene> the strange thing is that maryland has a bunch of biotech companies
01:05 < bkero> Here there is :)
01:05 < bkero> Glassware for $0.50 each
01:05 < gene> psst fry's still sells beakers, heck I even seen them carry glass tubes
01:05 < bkero> Beakers, graduated cylinders, all sorts of things.
01:05 < willPow3r> fry's electronics?
01:06 < gene> yes fry's electronics
01:06 < gene> don't tell the coppers
01:10 < willPow3r> maybe i *am* the coppers
01:11 < gene> no you aren't the coppers, the coppers were a 1980s heavy metal band
01:12 < willPow3r> where are they now?
01:13 < gene> who knows
01:13  * kanzure_ likes 80s heavy metal / hair metal.
01:16  * bkero has the hair, and the band.
01:16 < bkero> As noted by his picture on http://www.osuosl.org/info/people
01:16 < gene> I for one like heavy metal binding proteins
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02:00 < xp_prg2> my flash is coming along quite nicely :>
02:07  * bkero flashes xp_prg2 
02:07 < xp_prg2> wahoo :>
02:08  * bkero flashes xp_prg2 to xp_prg3
02:08 < bkero> CRITICAL: Checksum error.
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03:47 < UtopiahGHML> how well do classical compression algorithms handle DNA? achieving significant compression or not really?
04:10 < willPow3r> http://shop1.frys.com/product/2648172?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
04:10 < willPow3r> im not sure i trust this "wild goose" brand
04:12 < willPow3r> i wonder if making meth would be a good science fair project
04:13 < willPow3r> carson-dellosa, the company that makes wild goose chemistry equipment, is also a christian education company
04:25 < wrldpc> bizarre
04:37 < willPow3r> they must be banking on muslim fundamentalists
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11:32 < kanzure_> http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1073317&cid=26233119  what's a reflow oven?
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12:21 < jihaaad> drazak: 
12:21 < jihaaad> paging drazak 
12:22 < jihaaad> DRAZAK
12:22 < jihaaad> DRAZAK
12:23 < jihaaad> I HEARD YOU WERE BUILDING A CHEAP PCR MACHINE
12:23 < jihaaad> I WANTED TO HELP LOL
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12:27 < jihaaad> cuz i know 'bout heaters n shut
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12:52 < drazak> jihaaad: uh, I'm using peltier devices and fans
12:52 < jihaaad> what is yo black ass using to measure temp
12:52 < drazak> some thermistors
12:53 < drazak> 4 of them, in 4 different tubes each with the solution, to use as temperature controlls but not final electrolysis
12:53 < jihaaad> Why not something like a thermocouple?
12:53 < jihaaad> Can you show me what you have so far?
12:53 < jihaaad> Or is it just an idea in your head?
12:53 < drazak> nowhere
12:53 < drazak> I haven't had time to build it yet
12:54 < jihaaad> You have plans?
12:54 < drazak> I haven't had time to draw them up
12:54 < drazak> but it seems pretty simple
12:55 < jihaaad> Don't you think we could have a few more tubes?
12:55 < drazak> there'll be more than 4
12:55 < jihaaad> Also, is aluminum our ideal material, since it heats and cools so quickly?
12:55 < drazak> just 4 of them are for temp control
12:55 < jihaaad> (For the block)
12:55 < drazak> uhm
12:56 < drazak> no
12:56 < drazak> you want something with a little more temp control than aluminium
12:56 < jihaaad> hey if you don't want input/help then you can quit being a faggot
12:56 < jihaaad> and say so
12:56 < drazak> I'm not being a faggot
12:56 < jihaaad> You're always being a faggot.
12:56 -!- jihaaad changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: fags
12:56 < jihaaad> Fag.
12:57 < jihaaad> Anyway
12:57 < jihaaad> What do you suggest, if not aluminum? 
12:58 < drazak> water, use the peltier device to get water hot, and then have a rack for 50um cuvettes, and a peltier device right on top to prevent condensation, and then jut hook it up to a microcontroller
12:58 < jihaaad> So you're proposing a rack sitting above a little reservoir? 
12:59 < jihaaad> Or therein?
12:59 < drazak> yeah
12:59 < jihaaad> draw me a pictar
12:59 < drazak> no, I'm busy
12:59 < jihaaad> use mspain
12:59 < drazak> lol, mspaint
12:59 < drazak> I'm on linux
12:59 < jihaaad> YOU ARE NOT TOO BUSY FOR SCIENCE
12:59 < jihaaad> FUCKING FAGS
12:59 < drazak> yes, I am
12:59 < drazak> sorry!
12:59 < jihaaad> what are you doing that is more important than science
13:00 < drazak> stuff that I get paid for
13:00 < drazak> !
13:00 < jihaaad> Science comes first. Sex follows closely thereafter. 
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13:29 < kanzure_> jihaaad: Wrong. You're supposed to combine the two, you see.
13:33 < drazak> :P
13:34 < drazak> yep
13:34 < drazak> my ex and I used to joke about having sex with molecular interactions on the ceiling
13:35 < kanzure_> wait, what?
13:35 < kanzure_> you mean, written out on the ceiling?
13:44 < kanzure_> Hrm. I have a challenge to set forth- can anybody find some ridiculously complicated step-by-step instructions? I'm wondering how to classify what's unapproachable to step-recipes.
13:44 < kanzure_> For instance, control structures are a bit different in step-by-step recipes. Timers and so on have to be represented as "set the timer" and such, and then "link up the timer to such-and-such activity" or something.
13:45 < kanzure_> so in that case, time-based instructions can be encoded in individual linear steps
13:48 < kanzure_> http://www.twine.com/item/11yngqm3s-34z/space-com-simulation-shows-bacteria-could-live-on-mars Mars Environment Simulation Chamber (MESC)
13:59 < kanzure_> http://www.opensourcesensing.org/  wtf
13:59 < kanzure_> Joseph Jackson just linked to that on om
13:59 < jihaaad> my ex draws molecules on me
13:59 < jihaaad> but not very often
13:59 < jihaaad> it's usually math
13:59 < jihaaad> usually trig for whatever reason
13:59 < jihaaad> bitch is insane
14:05 < kanzure_> jihaaad: What's the most complicated set of instructions you've had to ever execute?
14:06 < jihaaad> in what?
14:06 < kanzure_> anything but programming
14:06 < jihaaad> C? ASM? Cooking?
14:06 < jihaaad> oh
14:06 < kanzure_> anything that could be expressed as a recipe, though
14:06 < jihaaad> That's an incredibly abstract question
14:06 < kanzure_> Yes :(
14:06 < jihaaad> "Go to college, make good grades"?
14:06 < kanzure_> Heh.
14:06 < jihaaad> why?
14:07 < kanzure_> I'm still working on recipe representation
14:07 < kanzure_> if a linear model of recipes is ok, then I'll go do that
14:07 < jihaaad> I can tell you, the most complex things I've done in C are various rainbow-table related things
14:07 < kanzure_> but PSL provides for some more abstract concepts
14:07 < jihaaad> and
14:07 < jihaaad> in ASM
14:07 < jihaaad> Just shellcode.
14:07 < jihaaad> And in cooking
14:07 < jihaaad> eggs
14:07 < jihaaad> those fucking things
14:07 < jihaaad> are impossible
14:07 < jihaaad> you should buy a PSL
14:07 < jihaaad> remarkable guns
14:07 < kanzure_> http://www.protocol-online.org/  <-- most of these are "step one, step two" things, where each step is pretty easy
14:08 < kanzure_> but thereeee's a few that I'm either forgetting or vageuly remember that are ridiculously complicated
14:08 < kanzure_> and can't be reduced to "step one, step two" sort of things.
14:08 < jihaaad> why are you doing this
14:09 < kanzure_> "Harvest log phase growing cells (trypsinization is OK), wash twice in PBS, pellet by centrifugation (2000 rpm, 5 min in table top centrifuge, or 3 min in microfuge), resuspend carefully and completely in Lysis Buffer (see solutions), incubate at RT 5 min with frequent vortexing, and freeze in ETOH/dry ice bath. Repeat freeze/thaw cycle twice (3 times total) and store at -70°C until ready to quantitate proteins. Try to suspend 105 cells/l5 ml LB. The number of cells need not be exact, but you need a minimum of 5x105 cells in 75 ml to have accurate results, and if you have too many cells in a small volume, they will not resuspend or lyse well."
14:09 < kanzure_> to systematize it.
14:09 < jihaaad> more complex action requires a longer recipe
14:09 < jihaaad> In order to tell them how to do something like that
14:09 < kanzure_> I'm also thinking of stuff like "How to assemble your new chair"
14:10 < jihaaad> I'd take at least 3 pages
14:10 < kanzure_> assembling a chair has easy instructions though
14:10 < jihaaad> Why, though?
14:10 < kanzure_> I guess I should be asking about "nonlinear instructions/recipes". but usually those can be broken down into linear recipes, right? All parallel programs can be simulated on a linear processor, is that correct?
14:10 < kanzure_> something like that.
14:11 < kanzure_> why => because it has to be done? :)
14:12 < jihaaad> Why must it be done?
14:12 < jihaaad> Honestly, it seems like pointless semantic BS to me
14:12 < kanzure_> semantic is about "meaning". I don't care about meaning.
14:12 < jihaaad> Apparently so
14:13 < kanzure_> I'm trying to figure out a computational representation of recipes so that we can generate instructions that are both machine readable and human  readable. Now, I don't care what they actually mean, but as long as there's a computational representation of the steps, that's the important part.
14:13 < jihaaad> but
14:14 < jihaaad> current machine-readable instructions ARE human-readable
14:14 < jihaaad> iff human is not a complete retard
14:15 < kanzure_> right, so you can convert stuff like "FOLD on line A to point B" to something more verbose and bullshitty that a human would pur about (whatever)
14:15 < jihaaad> or you can represent it in c
14:15 < kanzure_> http://www.wgbh.org/cainan/article?item_id=1991546 <-- a supposedly hard recipe,
14:15 < jihaaad> stop reinventing the wheel
14:15 < kanzure_> but ass I read it, it's just a linear sequence of steps
14:15 < jihaaad> it ain't gonna get no rounder
14:16 < kanzure_> I agree that it should directly use an instruction set architecture that everyone is familiar with
14:16 < kanzure_> preferably RISC
14:16 < jihaaad> no please god no
14:16 < kanzure_> better than CISC.
14:16 < jihaaad> i bet you want it to be big-endian too
14:16 < jihaaad> fucking freak
14:17 < jihaaad> x86 4 lyfe
14:17 < jihaaad> represent
14:18 < jihaaad> Comp sci folks need to quit making pointless abstractions
14:18 < jihaaad> They do not serve to clarify, only to distort and confuse
14:18 < jihaaad> People do not and will not ever think like computers.
14:18 < jihaaad> Computers do not and will not think like people.
14:19 < kanzure_> It's pretty obvious to me that recipes are a list of instructions.
14:19 < kanzure_> Sorry.
14:19 < jihaaad> We add complexity without adding features
14:19 < jihaaad> well, yeah
14:19 < jihaaad> but
14:20 < jihaaad> What's the point of translating recipes into an invented machine code?
14:20 < jihaaad> One which no existing machine can currently read?
14:20 < jihaaad> You have a perfectly good C compiler
14:20 < jihaaad> and yet you want to draft up some zany RISC processor which nobody will know how to use
14:20 < kanzure_> Actually, machines do read these instructions, like: gcode, whatever format various printers accept (some old stuff accepted straight-up ASCII), etc.
14:21 < jihaaad> Okay
14:21 < jihaaad> Explain to me
14:21 < jihaaad> in two sentences
14:21 < jihaaad> what you are trying to do
14:21 < jihaaad> and then, explain, in one sentence, why
14:22 < kanzure_> overall, or what I'm asking of you? heh'
14:22 < jihaaad> Overal.
14:22 < jihaaad> *Overall
14:23 < kanzure_> I'm coming up with a recipe representation format that rivels PSL ( http://www.mel.nist.gov/psl/ ) for the representation of processes, recipes, instructions, in a specific data format. 
14:23 < kanzure_> The recipes can't just be "Natural Language" crap, because that's just asking for another Wikipedia.
14:24 < kanzure_> ooh: Clinical Laboratory Procedure Markup Language, CLP-ML
14:24 < jihaaad> So, you're creating a language to represent algorithms.
14:24 < jihaaad> ...
14:24 < jihaaad> real inventive
14:24 < jihaaad> fucking why
14:24 < jihaaad> C
14:25 < jihaaad> they had it right in the 70's
14:25 < kanzure_> it just needs to be a data format, not executable code. 
14:25 < jihaaad> C works anyway
14:25 < jihaaad> why not xml
14:25 < kanzure_> the code is simple: go to each referenced package and call the English serialization function given the parameters (like where to fold or whatever) to make more complete instructions for that specific action
14:25 < kanzure_> well, what schema in xml? etc.
14:26 < kanzure_> psl provides one, but nobody knows how to use psl really
14:26 < kanzure_> and the psl guys are dead
14:26 < jihaaad> learn to use PSL
14:26 < jihaaad> This is even worse than reinventing the wheel
14:26 < kanzure_> so that's why I'm thinking of just using functionCAD, which is really just this graph-based approach of "A -> B"
14:26 < jihaaad> They reinvented the wheel so you're reinventing their wheel
14:26 < jihaaad> More abstraction != good
14:27 < jihaaad> Okay, let's say we have a manufacturing thing, right? A robot.
14:27 < jihaaad> In theory, we could feed it your language and it would build a firearm
14:27 < jihaaad> or something
14:27 < jihaaad> yes?
14:27 < kanzure_> we'd feed it parameters or whatever, yeah
14:27 < kanzure_> like gcode :)
14:27 < jihaaad> so
14:27 < jihaaad> Your hypothetical language would be more abstract
14:27 < kanzure_> what I'm trying to find is the "thingy" that says "ok, give the robot here this gcode file. now stir for 20 minutes"
14:28 < jihaaad> the problem is
14:28 < jihaaad> imagine a human doing that
14:28 < jihaaad> and a robot doing it
14:28 < kanzure_> doing gcode? Yeah,  it's a bad example
14:28 < jihaaad> Which is going to be more precise?
14:28 < kanzure_> a better example would be something like printing out vs. hand-copying a book
14:28 < jihaaad> The human might stir for 20ish minutes
14:28 < jihaaad> exactly
14:28 < jihaaad> so
14:28 < kanzure_> or the origami folding machine versus a professional origami folder
14:28 < jihaaad> human language sucks for manufacturing/science in general
14:28 < jihaaad> this is why we have math
14:28 < kanzure_> and yet people use it.
14:29 < jihaaad> We need to specify exactly, human language leaves a lot of wiggle room for interpretation
14:29 < jihaaad> "Well, he said stir, but fuck that, I'm going to vortex"
14:30 < jihaaad> you keep reinventing wheels, and as a result, you'll never build the car
14:30 < jihaaad> and if you do
14:30 < jihaaad> nobody will know how to drive it
14:30 < jihaaad> or power it
14:31 < jihaaad> or which way to sit therein
14:31 < kanzure_> you're not really helping to answer my question
14:31 < jihaaad> Which was?
14:31 < kanzure_> whether there's something that I'm going to miss with linear recipes/instructions
14:31 < jihaaad> Branches.
14:31 < kanzure_> hrm
14:31 < jihaaad> You'll have to branch out and execute each branch
14:31 < jihaaad> OOE
14:32 < jihaaad> is what it's called when processors do it
14:32 < jihaaad> out of order execution
14:32 < jihaaad> then you're looking at branch prediction, branch table buffers, etc...
14:32 < kanzure_> No, I think linear instructions do branching. "If the chicken is black, then go to section 4."
14:32 < jihaaad> Of course, but you'll be writing an insane amount of code
14:33 < jihaaad> just write an interpreter!
14:35 < kanzure_> Saadawi G, Harrison JH. A lightweight XML editor for clinical
14:35 < kanzure_> laboratory procedure manuals. Arch Pathol Lab Med 2004;128:
14:35 < kanzure_> 1104.
14:37 < jihaaad> UNREASONABLY COMPLEX MARKUP LANGUAGES AHOY, CAPTAIN
14:38 < jihaaad> "sir C is too easy to use and makes too much sense"
14:38 < jihaaad> FIRE THE ABSTRACTION TORPEDOES 
14:38 < jihaaad> yes sir
14:39 < kanzure_> yeah, because all chair assembly instruction manuals should just be a giant .c file.
14:39 < jihaaad> "sir it worked nobody has any fucking clue what the hell is going on and the language is actually not useable"
14:39 < jihaaad> BAHAHAHAHAHAHA
14:39 < jihaaad> or
14:39 < jihaaad> phrase them in simple G code
14:39 < jihaaad> for a machine
14:39 < jihaaad> for a person
14:39 < jihaaad> Tell him how to do it
14:39 < jihaaad> aloud. or in writing.
14:39 < jihaaad> maybe some pictures.
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15:14 < kanzure_> if only overloading was more dynamic. "We see that there are 20 different solutions to this function, and 30 to this one, but only 5 combinations that make it so that the two functions match up specifically."
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16:09 < gene> lol FIRING AWAY CAPTAIN!
16:11 < gene> drazak I am perplexed
16:12 < gene> as to how that is possible
16:44 < drazak> gene: what is?
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17:42 < kanzure_> part of the problem goes back to kernel time sharing algorithms and the like, the traditional monolithic-vs.-microkernel debate. but ultimately userspace should be full of linear stuff, so.
17:42 < kanzure_> so maybe I'll just write a few wrappers for linked/ordered lists and call it quits.
18:11 < kanzure_> http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1073673&cid=26235239   Bruce Perens did 4chan?
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19:02 < kanzure_> lo ybit.
19:04 < gene> drazak the molecular interactions part
19:05 < ybit> oi kanzure_
19:05 < ybit> gene [nod]
19:06 < gene> Ugh I don't want to restart my computer to install this software
19:06 < ybit> what software?
19:06 < ybit> messing with your kernel?
19:06 < gene> driver software for a clearance USB microscope
19:06 < kanzure_> you're doing it wrong.
19:06 < kanzure_> use modprobe.
19:07 < gene> what's modprobe?
19:07 < kanzure_> adds a driver to kernelspace without rebooting
19:07 < ybit> man modprobe, no? :)
19:08 < gene> well this driver was probably hacked from a webcam
19:08 < kanzure_> So, Paul was complaining earlier today about safety and diybio, and was saying "ok, so we should just put everything into remote cells for tinkering". I wonder how he lives with his wife?
19:08 < gene> HAHAHAHA
19:08 < kanzure_> I'm serious though.
19:08 < kanzure_> an honest issue.
19:09 < gene> Kanzure let me tell you a little something about e.coli
19:09 < gene> laboratory strains of e.coli have gone through so many generations, that they are now adapted to only living in a lab
19:09 < gene> they can
19:10 < gene> 't live in your gut
19:10 < gene> btw this driver isn't even workin
19:10 < gene> it thinks the webcam in my laptop is the microscoe
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19:15 < kanzure_> I think the point of modprobe was lost on him.
19:19 < ybit> my feeds are getting out of hand
19:19 < kanzure_> I've stopped reading.
19:19 < ybit> the curse of holidays
19:19 < ybit> come on, you got to read some
19:20 < ybit> wikinews at the least
19:20 < kanzure_> No, as it turns out, I get the same crap through email.
19:20 < ybit> (to stay in touch with the world)
19:20 < ybit> heh, there is a lot of redundancy
19:20 < kanzure_> stay in touch with .. what?
19:21 < ybit> possible disasters? there could be a natural disaster occuring in a city you are about to visit
19:21 < ybit> would help to know that
19:22 < ybit> someone could beat you to what you're working on, would be nice to know that
19:26 < ybit> agree, disagree?
19:27 < kanzure_> I'm not sure any more. News reading hasn't really led to anything spectacularly productive except obsessive compulsive information hoarding, meanwhile the fundamental underlying issues are still at stake (i.e., all of these damn iGEM projects in sloppy submission styles)
19:34 < ybit> i've noticed this
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19:42 < gene> woo the microscope works
20:07 < kanzure_> Neat, Bruce Perens replies to email.
20:22 < gene> who's bruce perens?
20:22 < gene> and what would you do with a 130x cheapass usb microscope?
20:26 < kanzure_> Make lots of microbe videos.
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20:27 < kanzure_> Bruce Perens is the guy who did OSI and at one point was a big head guy behind debian. If you saw "Revolution OS", he was one of the guys talking after ESR, RMS, and Linus.
20:27 < gene> yeah big microbes
20:27 < kanzure_> erm, I'm sorry, not microbes, planarians and the like
20:27 < gene> Yeah I know what you mean
20:28 < gene> hey you know how I can tell the software this microscope uses is from a webcam?
20:29 < gene> the software has various "effects"
20:30 < gene> not very useful for a microscope if you ask me
20:31 < kanzure_> "Relational database theory describes the manipulation of hyper-rectangles, but we fake it very badly with indexes we actually have algorithms for.  Did you ever wonder why no one has built a massively distributed SQL database despite the obvious value?  It is not because it is theoretically impossible, but because it is only possible if someone discovers a general algorithm for indexing hyper-rectangles -- faking it is not distributable. "
20:32 < willPow3r> tl;dr
20:32 < kanzure_> I thought that Google does distributed SQL sort of though
20:32 < kanzure_> i.e., caching and the like.
20:32 < kanzure_> What's the deal?
20:32 < gene> reminds me of my compsci roommate's homework
20:33 < gene> he had to turn a sentence into an nth dimensional vector
20:34 < gene> so you can compare sentences with each other
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20:37 < kanzure_> gene: what was the comparison operation?
20:37 < kanzure_> i.e., how do you compare two given words?
20:39 < gene> I forgot you represent each word as a vector and it's incidence is the magnitude of the vector
20:39 < gene> I don't know
20:39 < gene> I'll have to ask my roommate when I can get back
20:39 < kanzure_> You could do a hack with WordNet, but I'm wondering what the assignment was asking specifically for.
20:40 < gene> I don't remember what it was about my roommate didn't understand it
20:41 < kanzure_> multidimensional vector stuff is common in web search algorithms, for instance. but anyway.
20:43 < gene> yeah it was something like that
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21:31 < drazak> gene: ?
21:59 < kanzure_> fenn: what about specific materials in your Measurements class? i.e., "20 g of CAS ID #338024" ? I guess we can come up with a class that encapsulates sourcing of things, which has a member variable for the measurements/units
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22:27 < procto> gene: he was either turning it into a markov chain or a a document-term matrix
22:28 < procto> kanzure_: google does something totally different
22:28 < procto> kanzure_: BigTable is a column based db
22:28 < procto> relational DBs are incredibly powerful... for some thirgs.
22:28 < procto> things*
22:28 < procto> they are NOT good for things like documents
22:29 < procto> which is what google indexes and what most of human-produced content is like
22:29 < procto> which is why I use couchdb for my personal projects
22:31 < procto> a lot of people use RDBs because they have become ubiquitous, and are proctically synonymous with what people understand DBs to be
22:31 < procto> kanzure_: the assignment sounds like it has to do with latent semantic analysis
22:41  * kanzure_ has some done some wacky cross-table queries with indices pointintg back to indices in weird criss-cross directions
22:41 < kanzure_> It's not pretty.
22:41 < kanzure_> hrm. Somebody from Australia just phoned me to tell me to keep my grades up. I wonder how much that costed him.
22:57 < gene> again?
22:57 < gene> I don't get it, I don't want to know
23:12 < gene> kanzure do you know any good PCB layout tools a
23:13 < drazak> gene: they all suck
23:13 < drazak> :S
23:14 < gene> yeah but which one sucks least
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23:26 < kanzure_> http://www.brpreiss.com/books/opus7/html/page84.html  what's the meaning of the (object) on line 1? Inheritance?
23:26 < kanzure_> class blah (object):
23:27 < gene> drazak do you prefer freeforming
23:29 < drazak> gene: paper and a mech drawing table
23:29  * drazak nods
23:30 < gene> what's a mech drawing table?
23:30 < kanzure_> probably what you were drawing on in the mech drawing class.
23:31 < drazak> gene: a table with a thing that adjusts to different angles
23:31 < gene> oh
23:31 < gene> you seem very old fashioned, how do I use the save function on paper?
23:32 < drazak> scanner
23:32 < drazak> :P
23:32 < gene> what OS does paper run?
23:32 < kanzure_> drazak: http://brlcad.org/
23:32 < gene> alibre.com
23:32 < gene> http:/alibre.com
23:33 < gene> it ain't open source but it's free
23:33 < gene> bah BRL cad's a primitive based constructor isn't it?
23:34 < gene> that's what second life uses
23:34 < kanzure_> what do you mean 'uses'
23:34 < drazak> eaglecad
23:34 < drazak> I just find them restraining
23:34 < kanzure_> what, you can't import custom data?
23:34 < gene> is eaglecad free?
23:34 < kanzure_> import custom data to second life, I mean
23:35 < gene> that's why I hate it
23:35 < gene> oops I meant to say that's why I hate it vehemently
23:36 < gene> WHAT? I HAVE TO PAY TO USE THIS TEXTURE?
23:38 < gene> eagle cad link ?
23:40 < gene> one of my favorite apps for primitive type modelling and mesh based modeling is metasequioa
23:41 < gene> might've spelled it wrong