--- Day changed Sun Dec 28 2008 00:07 * bkero shrugs. Looks normal to me. 00:18 -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:23 < kanzure_> "how should one off himself?" - Andrew the robot 00:41 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@m650f36d0.tmodns.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:45 -!- willPow3r_ [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 00:46 < kanzure_> http://sugarshot.org/downloads/propellant_spec.doc 00:49 -!- ferrouswheel [n=jp@121-73-144-159.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 00:50 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:54 -!- Aulere [n=dragon_d@pool-71-114-135-108.hrbgpa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:17 -!- ferrouswheel [n=jp@121-73-144-159.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:31 -!- jm|earth [n=jm@p57B9C4E6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:21 -!- nsh [n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:53 * kanzure_ has hit 72,000 messages in his inbox. 10:53 < kanzure_> unread. 10:58 -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@brndmb02bbp-ac09-53-198.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:02 -!- nsh [n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:05 < wrldpc> Love you mothafuckas. 11:05 < wrldpc> holy shit. 11:06 < wrldpc> bbiab 11:06 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@173.48.207.37] has quit [] 11:28 -!- willPow3r_ [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:28 -!- willPow3r_ [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:35 -!- SL4observer [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbp-ac10-31-116.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:37 * SL4observer forgets how to use the IRC ghostkill command :P 11:38 < SL4observer> ok, this is kinda insane: 11:38 < SL4observer> Why can't I get Help from this program? 11:38 < SL4observer> The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which was used in previous versions of Windows and it is not supported in Windows Vista. 11:38 < SL4observer> For more information, see Windows Help program (WinHlp32.exe) is no longer included with Windows on the Microsoft support website. 11:43 < kanzure_> Hah. 11:43 < kanzure_> http://irchelp.org 11:43 < kanzure_> or /msg nickserv help 11:44 < SL4observer> thanks :) 11:45 -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@brndmb02bbp-ac09-53-198.dial.mts.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:45 -!- SL4observer [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbp-ac10-31-116.dial.mts.net] has quit [] 11:45 -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbp-ac10-31-116.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:45 < PeerInfinity> that worked, thanks :) 11:45 < PeerInfinity> it was the GHOST command 11:57 -!- SL4observer [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbp-ac10-31-116.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:57 -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbp-ac10-31-116.dial.mts.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:57 -!- SL4observer [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbp-ac10-31-116.dial.mts.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:57 -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbp-ac10-31-116.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:12 < fenn> I am 50% here 12:12 < fenn> the other half is still frozen 12:14 -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:15 -!- gene changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: lasers 12:20 < kanzure_> "Another thing blogs and open source software have in common is that they're often made by people working at home. That may not seem surprising. But it should be. It's the architectural equivalent of a home-made aircraft shooting down an F-18. Companies spend millions to build office buildings for a single purpose: to be a place to work. And yet people working in their own homes, which aren't even designed to be workplaces, end up being more productive." 12:21 < kanzure_> http://www.paulgraham.com/opensource.html 12:21 < kanzure_> I don't know why I'm reading graham this morning 12:35 < kanzure_> http://rsss.anu.edu.au/~janeth/OSBusMod.html paper on OSS biotech thingy, lots of references to CAMBIA and ESR .. 12:44 < fenn> say, you know... i dont think the skdb page is hopelessly unrecoverable 12:44 < fenn> i have to fix it up for my "portfolio" anyway 12:47 -!- gene_ [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:48 < kanzure_> fenn, you've missed the diybio mailing list explosion 12:49 < kanzure_> +20 members/day of "omglol where do I start?!? give me teh codes!!!" 12:50 -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:50 -!- gene_ is now known as gene 12:50 < fenn> meh 12:50 < fenn> did anyone write a FAQ 12:50 < gene> oh shit I need to join that too 12:51 < fenn> let's see if hugo elias is interested in OM: http://groups.google.com/group/wildcat-cad/browse_thread/thread/2c8e52512889410a 12:52 < gene> who is Hugo Elias? 12:53 < gene> http://freespace.virgin.net/hugo.elias/models/m_ffire.htm 12:53 < gene> this hugo elias? 12:54 < fenn> probably 12:54 < fenn> the guy behind liquidpcb.org 12:55 < kanzure_> it's odd, but I seem to have trouble writing code because of a knee problem. I can't go 20 minutes without having to jump up and walk around. 12:56 < kanzure_> fenn, Bruce Perens expressed some preliminary interest in om 12:56 < fenn> well, that's good i guess 12:56 < kanzure_> something about a grant coming up in a year that is related. 12:56 < fenn> kanzure_: maybe you have "cabin fever" 12:57 < fenn> it's rare in texas, but I have heard of a few cases down there 12:57 < kanzure_> this is physical pain 12:57 < fenn> sweet, hugo elias has exactly the code I want for SMIRF 13:00 < fenn> and he works at shadow robotics, IIRC 13:00 < fenn> the airmuscle walker/hand people 13:10 < kanzure_> class ingredient: some sourced material variable (CAS ID? matweb ID? etc.), plus a measurement object 13:10 < kanzure_> class step: input = ingredient(), output = ingredient(), parameter = pointer to a filename (like my.gcode), or something like that. Also, an optional specific-id to reference a package that solves this, or a list of possible solutions 13:11 < kanzure_> class recipe: steps (list of step objects), ingredients (list of ingredient objects) 13:11 < kanzure_> I'm not convinced that the ingredient class is going to work out. 13:12 < fenn> me either 13:13 < fenn> "material" is a lot more general 13:13 < fenn> or maybe even "substance" 13:14 < kanzure_> oh, just semantics? 13:14 < fenn> you already have the assumption that there's a step with an input and an output 13:14 < kanzure_> this is for making the package 13:14 < kanzure_> so, if the package is a hamburger 13:14 < fenn> which package? 13:15 < kanzure_> um, let me explain I guess 13:15 < fenn> yes yes it works fine for recipes 13:15 < kanzure_> the point is to try to find packages in skdb that solve that step 13:15 < kanzure_> so, if you have a step for 'take physical mass and apply heat' that might be a microwave 13:15 < kanzure_> the input is the physical mass (hamburger) and the output is plus some temperature or something 13:16 < kanzure_> is there a situation where there's no input/outputs of a package in skdb? 13:16 < fenn> you can jam any situation into any cognitive model if you try hard enough 13:16 < fenn> a machine rusting, or a radiation hazard, what are the inputs and outputs? 13:17 < kanzure_> is that recipe related? 13:17 < fenn> mayhaps i'm just being contrary 13:19 < gene> kanzure write code on treadmill 13:20 < gene> well the weather is nice outside 13:20 < fenn> <3 paul graham: "I'd like to suggest an alternative word for someone who publishes online. How about "writer?"" 13:21 < kanzure_> heathen! burn him! 13:21 < kanzure_> gene: I've done that before, actually 13:21 < gene> if input is hamburger then get meat, get bread, get lettuce 13:22 < kanzure_> what? 13:22 < kanzure_> no, we're not talking about that 13:22 < kanzure_> input to an abstract 'step' 13:22 < gene> find meat centroid, find bread centroid, find lettuce centroid 13:22 < kanzure_> think of it as a pipeline flow diagram of the recipe. 13:23 < kanzure_> the 'get' function could be satisfied by human, or by robotic controller 13:23 < gene> put lettuce and meat on lower bun centroid, put top bun centroid onto system centroid 13:23 < kanzure_> the 'heat it up' step could be satisfied by "here's how to build a fire" or "microwave" (and possibly "here's how to make a microwave") 13:23 < fenn> i was wandering through the user interface today before i woke up 13:23 < kanzure_> ? 13:24 < gene> cooking is a bit different 13:24 < kanzure_> the microwave user interface? 13:24 < fenn> there could be a tree of dependencies, and for each one there's a button for "buy" "make" or "trade" 13:24 < gene> you have to worry about temperature distribution 13:24 < gene> and stuff like that for some recipes 13:24 < fenn> buy would show an array of online providers with b2b stuffs 13:24 -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@ip-194-50-167-184.mir.dn.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:24 < kanzure_> yay b2b stuffs 13:24 < fenn> make would spit out instructions or cam files 13:25 < gene> cool can I find B2B 405 nm laser diodes? 13:25 < fenn> and trade would link to some kind of distributed ebay/mfg.com thing 13:25 < kanzure_> yep 13:25 < gene> what about chromium doped AR end coated YAG rod? 13:25 < fenn> what about it 13:25 < kanzure_> I was yep'ing fenn, btw. 13:26 < kanzure_> b2b stuffs depends magically on suppliers cooperating with us. 13:26 < fenn> 405nm is like, violet? 13:26 < gene> yes fenn it is violet 13:26 < gene> it is what bluray uses and what HD-DVD used 13:26 < fenn> oh, blu-ray diode, that should be easy to find 13:27 < gene> yeah I got one for $30 13:27 < fenn> so that's a stupid question to ask 13:27 < fenn> bad gene! darwin, exterminate him! 13:27 < gene> ok so how do we get suppliers to cooperate? 13:28 < gene> incentives? 13:28 < fenn> customers ordering from them 13:28 < kanzure_> we could be a bitch about it. 13:29 < fenn> if onlinemetals gets $50M in click-through orders, somebody is bound to take notice 13:29 < kanzure_> for instance, some suppliers have online HTML ordering forms, which surfraw can deal with 13:29 < kanzure_> they sometimes also only want email or phone calls 13:29 < kanzure_> so, for email, UBL 13:29 < kanzure_> for the phone, automated phone ordering 13:29 < gene> suppliers tend to hate small orders 13:29 < kanzure_> give them the finger. see how they like that. 13:29 < gene> blog about them 13:29 < kanzure_> huh? 13:29 < fenn> gene: rrrf is the way to handle that situation 13:30 < fenn> distributors don't have to be huge 13:30 < gene> RRRF can get a chinese factory to make linear steppers 13:30 < fenn> O RLY 13:30 < gene> oops meant can't 13:30 < fenn> but somebody makes them 13:30 < fenn> otherwise WE will make them 13:31 < gene> yeah but they can't get a factory to custom make them 13:31 < fenn> well, whatever, why would you want a custom commodity part? 13:31 < gene> because sometimes that what's you need 13:31 < fenn> sometimes your design engineer is a fucktard and needs to be shot 13:32 < fenn> two situations for custom parts: 13:32 < fenn> high performance 13:32 < fenn> mass production 13:32 < gene> I need a 100ft by 3 ft roll of 15 micrometer black HDPE sheeting 13:33 < fenn> i need a 100km rotating multiline Spectra tether, parked in an elliptical orbit 13:34 < gene> many plastics manufacturers that make plastic with a thickness of 15 micrometers make the plastic into garbage bags 13:34 < kanzure_> drazak: You want to go help out this guy? http://groups.google.com/group/diybio-chicago/browse_thread/thread/6d9a0ca8880e30c6/057fc0c689416f41#057fc0c689416f41 re: waterbaths. 13:34 < kanzure_> waterbaths for pcr, I mean. 13:34 < fenn> gene: i fail to see how this is a custom part? 13:35 < fenn> huh well i'm supposed to be ripping out a moldy wall 13:35 < gene> companies won't sell you just the flat unturned into garbage bag plastic 13:36 < gene> what you do for thermocycling is this: 13:37 < gene> get styrofoam, ep tubes, oven, thermometer, brownie pan, water 13:38 < gene> drill holes in strofoam for ep tubes, fill pan with water, put ep tubes with sample in hole 13:38 < kanzure_> fenn: while we're talking about ui, I was thinking it'd be nice to wrap/expose the python array/list manipulation methods, specificially geared to recipes. just something on my todo list once I figure out how I'd best like to do the initializers. 13:40 < gene> put ep tube styrofoam assemblage in water put in oven, 13:40 < gene> check water temperature and adjust accordingly 13:45 < drazak> kanzure_: water baths are slow and manual 13:51 < gene> is this from personal experience drazak? 13:53 < drazak> yes, and they give bad results 13:55 < gene> heh, I've used one in bioclass but never in research 13:56 < gene> so have you used them in apps where results and consistency matter 13:56 < gene> it actually should be pretty cheap to make a peltier based thermal cycler 13:56 -!- jm|earth [n=jm@p57B9F90D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:26 < drazak> yeah 14:26 < drazak> which is what I've worked on when I have free time 14:26 < drazak> but I'm busy with other stuff 14:39 < kanzure_> 'open gel box 2.0' reference on diybio list. 14:39 < kanzure_> blah, I want my damn packaging format 15:11 < gene> you guys know anyway to see if a voltage regulator works? 15:32 -!- gene_ [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:35 -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:35 -!- gene_ is now known as gene 15:35 < kanzure_> yay, Vern replied about his 'robobench' 15:35 < kanzure_> it appeared in Nuts & Volts magazine 15:47 < gene> link? 15:47 < kanzure_> I was saked not to, but hold on a sec 15:49 < kanzure_> 1980s RadioShack Armatron 15:49 < kanzure_> ref to the Iron Man arms :-) 15:50 < kanzure_> CrustCrawler AX-12+ SmartArm 15:50 < kanzure_> Dynamixel servo motors 15:51 < kanzure_> Alex Dirks 15:51 < kanzure_> blah, Vern got free parts from CrustCrawler, Inc. 15:51 < kanzure_> oh the dynamixel is the programmable choreography servo motor stuff. 15:56 -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbp-ac10-31-116.dial.mts.net] has quit [] 15:57 < gene> SYNTAX ERROR: please refrase above posts into a coherent sentence 15:58 < kanzure_> Alex Dirks at CrustCrawler was able to get Vern Graner a CrustCrawler AX-12+ SmartArm, which he was working on turning into a robo-helping-hand ("robobench") for his electronics bench. 15:59 < gene> a robotic helping hand with super powerful motors? 15:59 < kanzure_> in this case I don't think so 15:59 < kanzure_> it looks pretty flimsy if you ask me, and I'm not seeing a data sheet 16:00 < kanzure_> but anyway, Vern's presently working on a systematic 'tool gallery' that the arm can switch tools out on 16:00 < kanzure_> and then a foot pedal system for switching tools or something 16:00 < gene> cool 16:00 < kanzure_> one of the pics shows the obvious use of holding a pcb while you solder. 16:01 < kanzure_> "hand me a scalpel" 16:01 < gene> if it could be made more dextrous it might be able to solder things for you 16:01 < gene> yeah like I am going to trust a robot with a sharp piece of steel 16:02 < kanzure_> there are other solutions for that IIRC 16:02 < kanzure_> (for mass soldering) 16:02 < gene> JK I trust our robot overlords 16:02 < kanzure_> also, how would you tell it where to solder? guestimating the xy coords? 16:02 < kanzure_> I guess you could have a webcam and overlay a coord grid 16:02 < kanzure_> but you also have to account for obstructions and objects 16:03 < kanzure_> have to fit your hands into tiny places and such that don't show up on a birds-eye-view. 16:04 < gene> no you make your PCB on a computer components and all, buy all components from mouser, put em in the respective bins, and have your robot friend do the rest 16:04 < gene> SMD components only of course 16:04 < kanzure_> SMT? 16:04 < kanzure_> but yes, the smart way to do it would be custom-made PCBs where you know what you have. 16:06 < gene> what you want to solder circuit kits with a robot? 16:09 < gene> speaking of which I might make one of these http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=C6897 16:10 < gene> it's a bit expensive though 16:11 < gene> http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Mar1963/PE_Mar1963.htm 16:11 < gene> heh 16:25 -!- ferrouswheel [n=jp@121-73-144-159.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:36 < kanzure_> fenn: I think we need a 'workspace object' for defining the constraints on what's being assembled, or instructed, or anything like that. 16:54 < kanzure_> skdb.UnitError: 5 cm^2 16:54 < kanzure_> wtf? 16:55 < kanzure_> running units in interactive mode tells me that it's ok to have '5 cm^2' 17:06 < kanzure_> oh, is this your attempt at getting everyone to use standard units, fenn? 17:06 < fenn> no, it should work, i'm figuring out why it doesnt right now 17:09 < kanzure_> are you getting the same error? 17:09 < fenn> yes 17:09 < fenn> it's barfing in the number recognition regex 17:10 < fenn> ([+-]?\d*\.?\d*([eE][+-]?\d+)?)?(\D*)$ 17:10 < fenn> huh. did I write that? :) 17:11 < kanzure_> gene: SELECT * FROM `batter-stuff` WHERE material='barium-titanate powder' 17:11 * kanzure_ ponders gene's SQL interface. 17:11 < kanzure_> *battery-stuff 17:12 < fenn> oh it's because the 2 in ^2 is a number 17:12 < kanzure_> fenn, why don't we have a wizard app to help create regexps yet? 17:12 < fenn> and it wants (not-number) 17:12 < fenn> there is one, in kate 17:12 < kanzure_> you mean ^H? 17:12 < fenn> and probably some standalone app too 17:12 < fenn> ^H? 17:12 < kanzure_> erm, ^R 17:12 < kanzure_> for the replace thingy 17:12 < fenn> yeah 17:13 < kanzure_> that's just a list of some common things that people search for 17:13 < kanzure_> it's a start.. 17:13 < kanzure_> (I use it all the time, although it only takes a few times to remember ^ and $) 17:14 < fenn> so.. i was sort of going on the assumption that a unit was a number and then a bunch of strings 17:14 < fenn> i might just dump all the sanity checking stuff 17:16 < fenn> comment out this line to bypass the error: if match is None: raise UnitError, string 17:20 < kanzure_> ok, setting up gitweb here. 17:24 < kanzure_> can't remember. setting the $projectroot in gitweb.cgi to /path/to/skdb/master/ isn't quite right. in /path/to/ I did git-clone your skdb.git 17:24 < kanzure_> I missed a step 17:40 < kanzure_> http://www.loria.fr/~molli/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Seegit2 not bad. 17:47 -!- gene_ [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:57 -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:58 < kanzure_> fenn: http://70.113.54.112/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi 18:03 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:15 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:38 < gene_> I can't get it 18:42 < kanzure_> gene_: ? 18:42 < gene_> your link has rotted 18:45 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:50 < kanzure_> hrm 18:52 < kanzure_> gene_: try now. 18:57 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:00 < gene_> what is the link to? 19:10 < kanzure_> the skdb git repo 19:10 < kanzure_> anyway, I'm reading through the case files that slashdot linked to 19:10 < kanzure_> when they're asking the prospective jurors about file trading opinions, or if they have ever traded files, it's pretty sad 19:11 < kanzure_> all of them say they've mostly used email 19:11 < kanzure_> but then "nope, never traded files" 19:11 < kanzure_> *BULLSHIT* 19:24 < gene_> there are a lot of incomptent people out there 19:25 < gene_> I'll give you 5 19:26 < gene_> I'll give you 5 bucks if you can figure out what is wrong with my laser driver 19:31 -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:36 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-27-123-142.san.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:49 -!- gene_ [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:42 < kanzure_> fenn, would you comment on the repository changes I made, particularly recipe.py? 20:54 < gene> http://www.crabfu.com/steamtoys/steam_armatron/ 20:54 < gene> wow the armatron is quite the piece of engineering 21:26 < kanzure_> haha the expressions on their faces. 23:01 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-27-123-142.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11 < gene> Kanzure tell me: how the heck does a potentiometer break? 23:12 < kanzure_> I've busted a few by losing the soldering buds sort of. 23:12 < kanzure_> Does that count? 23:14 < gene> no electrically 23:14 < gene> I got a pot that won't change it's resistance 23:14 < gene> must have got too hot I guess 23:24 < gene> http://twittypic.com/?p=475 23:54 < bkero> gene: that can happen if you overpower the pot 23:55 < gene> I think I overheated it