--- Day changed Mon Dec 29 2008 00:02 -!- willPow3r_ is now known as willPow3r 00:34 < gene> ok the pot's not broken but it looks like the regulator is 00:34 < gene> damn 00:53 -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"] 01:19 -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:20 < gene> HELP! FOR SOME REASON THERE'S A YAHOO TOOLBAR IN MY FIREFOX HOW DO I KILL IT? 01:20 < bkero> gene: kill it with fire...fox 01:20 < gene> I tried 01:23 < procto> does anyone here enjoy steganography at all? 01:27 < gene> sǝʎ ʎɥʍ 01:30 < bkero> procto: I'm a big fan of plausable deniability if that's any consolation 01:34 < gene> it is a lot of fun to send "fuck you CIA" messages encrypted just over weakly 01:40 < procto> Well, here it is anyways http://www.mockingeye.com/index.php/2008/12/29/unistegpy-hiding-text-in-text-using-unicode/ 01:52 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@173.48.207.37] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:56 -!- ferrouswheel [n=jp@121-73-144-159.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:00 -!- jm|afk [n=jm@p57B9CCC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:14 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@173.48.207.37] has quit [] 05:17 -!- jm|earth [n=jm@p57B9F90D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:37 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@173.48.207.37] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:26 -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@ip-194-50-167-184.mir.dn.ua] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:53 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@173.48.207.37] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:33 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:43 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:48 < fenn> heh 0.005 m^2 of meat 08:48 < fenn> hello there elias` 08:50 < fenn> kanzure_: not sure what this is supposed to mean: outputRequirement = ingredient("", Measurement('7 cm^2')) 08:51 < fenn> there has to be 7 cm^2 of empty space? 09:27 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@173.48.207.37] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:53 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:57 < kanzure_> fenn: yes. the idea is that the outputRequirement of the step that matches/satisfies/solves that, will assemble the burger and make all components exist within that 7 cm^2. 11:19 < kanzure_> fenn: Emlyn was talking with me last night and wants to do full OOP here, i.e. where the "inputs" are an abstract object class (SomePaperTypeHere for, say, a papermachine or origamifoldingmachine). It's more specific than 'units', but I can't help but feel it leads down a bad path. 11:24 < kanzure_> What if we opt to let this version just be breadth-first only? This means that each package has a BOM and a Bill of Technologies, and there's no computational representation of how all of those materials and technologies fit together. But each individual technology, of course, has its own instructions. The disadvantage is that there's no ability to search for alternatives re: the BOM/BOT lists, and most of the metadata stuff we were hoping for becomes inapplicable. Also, no package-level instructions for combining the instructions of each package on the BOT list. :-/ 11:25 < kanzure_> for alternatives re: the BOM/BOT lists, and most of the metadata stuff we were hoping for becomes inapplicable. Also, no package-level instructions for combining the instructions of each package on the BOT list. :-/ 11:30 < kanzure_> unless there's a better way to do the 'ingredient' class so that materials can be referenced throughout the system (it's just a material plus a quantative measurement). Emlyn also suggested having these 'ingredient' objects as skdb packages. 11:42 < kanzure_> http://www.mel.nist.gov/div826/msid/sima/item2000/b05teets.pdf <- ECIX (electronic component information exchange). 11:43 < kanzure_> http://www.si2.org/ecix 11:43 < kanzure_> http://archives.si2.org/si2_publications/pinpak/ 11:43 < kanzure_> an example: http://archives.si2.org/si2_publications/pinpak/SampleInstances/KM736.xml 11:49 < kanzure_> http://www.protimingdiagrams.com/tdml.htm '"announced the release of the Timing Diagram Markup Language (TDML) v1.0, an open industry-standard language for the exchange of interactive timing diagrams for digital systems."' 12:38 < kanzure_> Neat, Temple will be speaking in Austin in April. 12:46 < kanzure_> http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=filetype:step+ISO-10303-21&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 <- 12 step files on the internet. heh' 12:48 < kanzure_> So this isn't too bad for some information - http://www.invert-a-bolt.com/data/F-87747-01.STEP but this does not look serious: (CONVERSION_BASED_UNIT('DEGREE',#10)NAMED_UNIT(#9)PLANE_ANGLE_UNIT()); 12:54 < kanzure_> oh neat 12:54 < kanzure_> I found the old Regli/NIST "national design repository" 12:54 < gene> who's temple 12:54 < kanzure_> http://gicl.cs.drexel.edu/repository/ 12:54 < kanzure_> I thought this was lost/dead/never-to-be-found .. cool. 12:54 < kanzure_> gene, Temple is famous for her "My mind is a web browser" article 12:54 < kanzure_> http://www.grandin.com/inc/mind.web.browser.html 12:54 < gene> Temple Grandin? 12:55 < kanzure_> "My Mind is a Web Browser: How People with Autism Think" 12:55 < gene> oh that Temple 12:55 < gene> Please don't refer to people by their first name only 12:55 < gene> for example: "do you know Ray?" 12:55 < kanzure_> who else could it have been? 12:55 < kanzure_> Ray would probably mean Kurzweil in this context. 12:56 < gene> better: "do you know Ray Bradbury" 12:57 < kanzure_> hrm, there's also Robert Bradbury, who writes about Dyson sphere stuff, but nevermind 12:57 < gene> do you ever give half an ip address? 13:00 < gene> HAHAHAHAHA 13:00 < gene> so guess what I found on my computer? 13:01 < gene> apparently when I installed autocad 2000, I also installed some quite obsolete plotter drivers 13:02 < kanzure_> gene, do you know of any datasheet standards for non-electronic products? 13:03 < gene> like? 13:03 < kanzure_> huh? well, like electronics datasheets. 13:03 < kanzure_> http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/ 13:03 < gene> what non-electronic products? 13:04 < kanzure_> anything: nuts and bolts, kitchenware, musical instruments, etc. 13:05 < gene> I don't think there are any standards 13:05 < kanzure_> example: http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf-datasheets/Datasheets-pdf-12/168635.pdf 13:06 < gene> I mean I got some datasheets on pumps Sata gave me 13:07 < gene> I can see why there should be some, and why you want them 13:07 < gene> coding for SKDB? 13:11 < kanzure_> trying to figure out if there's a better way to do "interchangeable parts" in recipes/instructions/designs. 13:11 < kanzure_> the whole concept of 'interchangeable parts' *sucks* if you're not able to query a database to find relevant parts that meet the specs you need or whatever 13:11 < kanzure_> somebody failed to finish the industrial revolution 13:11 * kanzure_ grumbles 13:15 < kanzure_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interchangeable_parts 13:15 < kanzure_> "In the U.S., Eli Whitney saw the potential benefit of developing "interchangeable parts" for the firearms of the United States military, and thus, around 1798, he built ten guns, all containing the same exact parts and mechanisms, and disassembled them before the United States Congress." 13:16 < kanzure_> not thematic at all .. no siree. 13:16 < kanzure_> theatrical, rather. 13:16 < kanzure_> "The Congress was immensely impressed and ordered a standard for all United States equipment. " <- what standard? 13:19 < samrose> hey y'all 13:19 < kanzure_> Hi samrose. 13:20 < samrose> working with Open Cascade over next couple of weeks, and will have some files to play around with. 13:21 < kanzure_> *poke* also check out brlcad. 13:21 < samrose> can you remind me where you currently have skdb available for download? ah, yeah will check out brlcad again 13:23 < samrose> kanzure_ maybe I am fantasizing that you had a repo with code online somewhere? 13:24 * kanzure_ checks his ip address real quick :-) 13:24 < kanzure_> http://70.113.54.112/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi and http://70.113.54.112/git/skdb.git for cloning. 13:25 < kanzure_> samrose: Don't know if you've been following my rant today, but basically I'm pretty sure that "interchangeable parts" is a giant scam and that technological ability doesn't actually exist ;-) 13:25 < kanzure_> there's some demo code in the repo for recipes, 13:25 < kanzure_> in an attempt to represent "interchangeable [solutions] to steps" 13:26 < kanzure_> but the way that it's being done is not optimal. Check out recipes/recipes.py near the last few lines to see what I mean. 13:26 < samrose> kanzure_ i think you are right in some ways about interchangeable parts, unless you are working with legos or some such thing 13:28 < kanzure_> :) 13:32 < samrose> there was a guy up here in Michigan, named Alden B Dow, who was extending that "lego" interchanability idea to production of physical object design, back in the 1940's. He was from the Dow Chemical family 13:34 < kanzure_> earlier today I found that ECIX is an XML DTD standard for electronics datasheets, which seems to do everything from per-pin wattage specs to physical layout. Globalspec and thomasnet seem to have datasheets for some parts in their db, but it's very hit-and-miss and not standardized across their dataset. 13:37 < samrose> when I try to clone warning: remote HEAD refers to nonexistent ref, unable to checkout. 13:37 < samrose> on http://70.113.54.112/git/skdb.git 13:38 < kanzure_> heh, I've had this error before, one sec. 13:40 < kanzure_> uh in the mean time 13:40 < kanzure_> http://fennetic.net/git/gitweb.cgi 13:40 < kanzure_> http://fennetic.net/git/skdb.git 13:40 < kanzure_> but that doesn't contain the recipe update. 13:43 < kanzure_> samrose: try now? 13:43 < kanzure_> nope, nevermind 13:44 < samrose> kanzure_ yes, was same error 13:51 < samrose> fennetic worked. I am going to mirror your dev, but use mercurial and hatta wiki, if you don't mind, and eventually moin wiki, once project to mount mercurial repo is done in moin 13:53 < kanzure_> still fixing error thing. hrm.. 13:56 < kanzure_> samrose: try this? mkdir skdb; cd skdb; git init; git remote add origin http://70.113.54.112/git/skdb.git ; git pull origin master ; 13:58 < samrose> all works save fatal: Couldn't find remote ref master 13:59 < kanzure_> odd, it works on my system .. but I was using 'add origin http://localhost ..." 14:01 < kanzure_> so apparently I don't know how to use git appropriately. 14:18 < samrose> probably just a web serving problem 14:18 < samrose> here is the fennetic repo in hg http://socialsynergyweb.org/hg/repos/hgwebdir.cgi/skdb/ 14:19 < samrose> I will add hatta in a moment... 14:21 < samrose> there, just added 14:52 < samrose> kanzure_ what is the license for your software? 14:54 < kanzure_> fenn had his code under a gpl license, and I guess that makes my code gpl too 15:00 < kanzure_> all of these 1903 references to 'interchangeable parts' really only mean "factories that are very precise". 15:20 < kanzure_> so it was all a scam: http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/The%20Legend%20of%20Eli%20Whitney%20and%20Interchangeable%20Parts.pdf 15:29 < gene> wait a minute Dow's chemical processing plants are like legos? 15:29 < gene> lego I mean 15:30 < kanzure_> "Honoré Blanc, Mémoire important sur les fabrications des armes de guerre (Paris: Cellot, 1790)." 15:30 < kanzure_> can anybody fetch that for me? 15:31 < gene> what the first paper on interchangeable parts 15:31 < kanzure_> no, the 1790 paper I just cited 15:31 < gene> not now I might be spending the next few days in meatspace 15:31 < kanzure_> btw, chemical processing plants are made up of "unit operations" 15:31 < gene> so like lego? 15:31 < kanzure_> and these are somewhat like legos, except not terribly standardized 15:32 < kanzure_> not really. it's meant to be like lego, but it fails. still need to connect machines together with custom methods IIRC 15:32 < gene> well then I want all the "lego parts" 15:32 < gene> yeah and sometimes you have to use very special catalysts 15:33 < kanzure_> hrm, this one cites the Blanc paper - http://www.compilerpress.atfreeweb.com/Anno%20Aldler%20Making%20Things%20the%20Same%20Representation,%20Tolerance%20and%20the%20End%20of%20the.htm "to produce functionally identical artifacts" 15:33 < kanzure_> that's not interchangeable parts .. that's just being precise and not sucking.. 15:33 < gene> but if chemplants are legos then that makes your BH toolkit seem a lot more feasible 15:35 < gene> speaking of Eli Whitney, you know he didn't make any profit from the cotton gin, the prototype got stolen and was pirated 15:35 < gene> but he did invent the mill 15:39 < kanzure_> he also lied about interchangeable parts 15:41 < gene> how so? 15:42 < kanzure_> he was broke. wanted money. so he told congress what they wanted to hear. 15:43 < kanzure_> see that last pdf link. it's on the first few pages. 15:45 < gene> ok thanks 15:49 -!- Netsplit orwell.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: ybit, gene, bkero, drazak, willPow3r, boogles, samrose, procto, Overand, Phreedom, (+1 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 15:51 -!- Netsplit over, joins: gene, bkero, procto, samrose, Phreedom, willPow3r, ybit, boogles, fenn, drazak (+1 more) 15:59 < samrose> gene: i am talking about this http://www.abdow.org/t16-unit-block-systems.aspx 16:12 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@173.48.207.37] has quit [] 16:24 -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:30 < fenn> "Emlyn also suggested having these 'ingredient' objects as skdb packages." yes that was the original idea 16:31 < fenn> since i dont see much technological infrastructure difference between cold rolled steel bars and a cold rolled steel bolt and a stamped auto body 16:35 < fenn> to fix "remote HEAD refers to nonexistent ref" you have to do git-update-server-info or something.. this is specific to http only 16:35 < fenn> i think it's rather lame 16:36 < fenn> i dont know why you think interchangeable parts is a scam 16:36 < fenn> "works for me"(tm) 16:37 < fenn> read up on optical comparators 16:38 -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:42 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:48 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:50 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:51 -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbl-ac08-63-235.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:54 < kanzure_> "I am the chief architect at Name Withheld - an Austin company that designs competitive X86 microprocessors. I am presently attending UT as a PhD student just for fun. You seem to be really intelligent, and I would like a chance to meet you." 16:54 < kanzure_> yay 17:00 < kanzure_> oh shit he's a patent agent 17:04 < kanzure_> I find it strange how quickly the discussions on diybio have turned to patents.. 17:06 < fenn> might be interesting to talk to (if you dont gnaw his head off) 17:07 < gene> Name Withheld, I've worked there 17:07 < gene> tell him that you patent something and make the patent public 17:07 < gene> like Mark Tilden did with his nervous net patent 17:08 < fenn> can anyone explain this to me: 17:08 < fenn> Academic Membership 17:08 < fenn> Non-corporate Personal $250 17:08 < fenn> Individual Affiliated with 17:08 < fenn> an Accredited Institution $ 0 17:09 < kanzure_> huh. 17:09 < fenn> seems like it should be the other way around 17:12 < fenn> back to the cryo chamber for me 17:13 < gene> remember to have your brain frozen first fenn 17:14 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@c-98-217-180-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:15 -!- SL4observer [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbk-ac07-60-139.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:16 -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbl-ac08-63-235.dial.mts.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:16 -!- SL4observer [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbk-ac07-60-139.dial.mts.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:16 -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbk-ac07-60-139.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:30 -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"] 19:51 -!- jm|afk [n=jm@p57B9CCC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:10 < kanzure_> http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/t/93a354079b5bfdbb <--- Longest email *ever* (or maybe not) 20:11 < kanzure_> just about openness and diybio, super mega awesome link dump thing 21:13 < wrldpc> That's a treatise! ;D 21:29 < kanzure_> heh 21:40 < kanzure_> hrm, where's my adp1 link? 21:51 < kanzure_> aha. found it. 22:53 < kanzure_> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1075583&cid=26260521 "Not only that, this developer somehow managed to get angel investment for a Firefox plug-in?" 22:53 < kanzure_> bwahaha 23:10 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@c-98-217-180-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24 -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:31 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@173.48.207.37] has joined #hplusroadmap