--- Day changed Wed Dec 31 2008 00:09 < kanzure_> emlyno: heh 00:09 < kanzure_> emlyno: now imagine how it must be for the people on that list that hate philosophy 00:09 < kanzure_> and are actually just plain ol' engineers 00:09 < emlyno> I responded to that guy 00:10 < emlyno> he actually is talking about namespaces and inheritance 00:10 < emlyno> just doesn't know it 00:10 < emlyno> imo 00:15 < kanzure_> I'm still not convinced that OOP is better than Paul's natural language 00:15 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@c-98-217-180-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:15 < kanzure_> fenn: so, alec got back to me. "I've been meaning to strike up correspondence with you, actually" 00:15 < kanzure_> and whenever wrldpc gets back on, tell him that alec has been circulating the archives and to go ask for a copy 00:19 < kanzure_> emlyno: what I mean to say is that it sounds like the OOP strategy has all of the same categorical-related problems as Paul's 00:24 < emlyno> oh do explain 00:25 < emlyno> you know the whole XML namespace thing is the same concept? 00:25 < kanzure_> I'm not as familiar with how XML namespaces are supposed to work as I pretend to be 00:26 < emlyno> well same idea 00:26 < emlyno> I'm not either btw, but generally, 00:26 < emlyno> you can define a namespace, and your tags can be 00:27 < emlyno> 00:27 < emlyno> something like that 00:27 < emlyno> it dissambiguates 00:28 < emlyno> and elsewhere in your document you reference schema(s) which play some role in declaring the namespaces, allowed tags, and schema itself 00:29 < kanzure_> oh, but supposedly there's some formal process for xml namespaces or something 00:29 < kanzure_> but just as a disambiguator, ok. 00:29 < emlyno> http://www.w3schools.com/XML/xml_namespaces.asp 00:30 < emlyno> No formal process 00:30 < kanzure_> paul's plan was just Semantic Mediawiki 00:30 < kanzure_> all mediawiki installations are able to create namespaces too 00:30 < kanzure_> so it's fundamentally not very different 00:30 < emlyno> you can define your own namespaces, stick them online wherever you like, 00:30 < kanzure_> I don't see how it functionally improves on the architecture really 00:30 < emlyno> and refer to them by uri 00:30 * kanzure_ is still waiting to hear about fenn's ideas for treating materials as packages rather than creating all this OOP nonsense 00:31 < emlyno> me too 00:31 < kanzure_> in the mean time, I sleep 00:31 < kanzure_> the other hu-mans return tomorrow, so I guess I should party while I can. 00:31 < emlyno> so anyway, what namespaces do for you is, that if two people choose to use the same namespace independently, they can communicate, you know? 00:31 < emlyno> sleep is good, cu 00:31 < kanzure_> yes, I know 00:31 < kanzure_> I've had enough intranamespace collisions for one lifetime already.. 00:32 < emlyno> well you shouldn't be using those dynamically typed languages then :-) 00:34 < emlyno> software that fails to compile when you make a mistake is a gift from the gods 00:34 -!- emlyno [n=emlyn@eth13582.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008121622]"] 00:54 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@173.48.207.37] has joined #hplusroadmap 00:56 < kanzure_> alec just linked me to http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/tor2web 00:56 < kanzure_> (Aaron did the RSS spec when he was 14) 00:56 < kanzure_> which reminds me of http://advogato.org/article/972.html 01:09 < willPow3r_> mmm... belvedere 01:12 < willPow3r_> its actually gross as fuck but its polish 01:12 < willPow3r_> what do you expect? 01:12 -!- willPow3r_ is now known as willPow3r 04:44 -!- jm|earth [n=jm@p57B9C178.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:02 -!- jm [n=jm@p57B9BBF6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:38 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:08 < kanzure_> http://www-tc.pbs.org/newshour/rss/media/2008/12/30/20081230_biology.mp3 11:08 < kanzure_> podcast 11:18 -!- nsh [n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:21 * kanzure_ just got an email from Ian Jackson 11:21 < wrldpc> it was a radio blurb? not video? 11:35 < kanzure_> not video 11:35 < kanzure_> well 11:35 < kanzure_> on the show it had video 11:55 < kanzure_> " 11:55 < kanzure_> " To use an analogy, the solid rocket boosters never make it to space - 11:55 < kanzure_> but the shuttle doesn't achieve liftoff without them." 14:15 < wrldpc> mm 14:39 -!- ybit [n=heath@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:43 < fenn> from the distributed bug tracker article comments: 14:43 < fenn> webgit (not released yet AFAIK), to Git, where users can edit files in Git just by using their browser. 14:43 < fenn> The other is a wiki currently backed by Git and using asciidoc-files (but markup and backend are pluginable), uWiki is announced on freshmeat. The homepage will also be written using uWiki, so that it can easily be tracked using Git. 14:44 < fenn> looks like webgit never took off 14:56 < wrldpc> this was cool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZM9XkcS2zQ 15:05 < kanzure_> fenn: alec claims he's packaging a debian package for a git2web thing 15:05 < fenn> i dont want git2web i want web2git 15:05 < kanzure_> I might be calling it by the wrong name 15:06 < kanzure_> wrldpc: really, you should post a link to the videos to the diybio list.. 15:06 < fenn> gitweb already provides the functionality of git2web more or less 15:06 < wrldpc> k 15:06 < kanzure_> wtf how does my 'biotech toolkit howto' video have 646 views 15:06 < kanzure_> it sucked 15:06 * fenn is slogging through emails about "semiotics" 15:06 < fenn> it has a cool title 15:06 < kanzure_> fenn: giving me some more info on how to treat materials as skdb packages would be nice 15:06 < kanzure_> heh 15:07 < fenn> blarg 15:07 < fenn> there's black boxing and there's introspection (duck typing) 15:07 < fenn> i dont believe in globally unique identifier crap 15:07 < kanzure_> but how is this different from what emlyn has been talking about (i.e., OOP hell) 15:08 < fenn> it's not, how is what emlyn is talking about a problem? 15:08 < kanzure_> "yay let's give a printer a PaperForPrinterOnly object!" 15:08 < kanzure_> *input of a PaperForPrinterOnly object! 15:08 < kanzure_> how is that *not* a GUID? 15:08 < fenn> for attribute in PaperForPrinterOnly: assert paper-like-object hasattr(attribute) 15:09 < fenn> i dont think we really need a new object just for that though 15:09 < fenn> it's essentially the input requirements of the printer 15:09 < fenn> so instead: for attribute in printer.requirements: assert ... 15:10 < kanzure_> so the input requirements, then, is not a package. 15:10 < kanzure_> instead it's an object 15:10 < kanzure_> defined elsewhere in the system it seems? 15:10 < fenn> it's a list of requirements, which could be either measurements of interfaces 15:10 < fenn> interface derives from measurement i guess 15:11 < fenn> s/of/or/ 15:11 < fenn> interface is a list of attributes 15:11 < kanzure_> still feels like an OOP situation sprouting here. .. how are you going to force everyone to use the same Objects? 15:11 < fenn> if they don't, I will kill them. 15:12 < fenn> seriously though, the code will break if they dont use the objects 15:12 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/oldwww/codeninja/ 15:13 < fenn> its sorta like asking "how are you going to enforce that people use the right function names in your library?" 15:13 < fenn> well, if they don't, it won't compile 15:13 < kanzure_> but how do you know it will break? they will just come up with a new object 15:13 < kanzure_> instead of wading through 20,000 other packages 15:13 < fenn> i hope the documentation would be good enough that it would be easier to use what exists than to write all new code 15:14 < fenn> what is the alternative? 15:14 < fenn> there's only so much you can do with introspection 15:15 < kanzure_> maybe I should just wait for you to type out some code so that I can see what you mean. 15:15 < fenn> you have to say "is there a pipe coming out of it?" and it looks and says "no, there's only a tubular projection orifice" 15:15 < kanzure_> where everything goes, where what defines what, etc. 15:15 * kanzure_ pops some Adderall 15:16 < fenn> unless there's some way to link the concept "pipe" and "tubular projection orifice" then you can never resolve that "miss" 15:16 < fenn> and like i said before, i dont think we have enough computer power to do every simulation between every package in every configuration 15:17 < fenn> there has to be _some_ level of black box 15:17 < fenn> or you end up running a simulated universe 15:17 < fenn> (the set of all possible simulated universes, really) 15:20 < fenn> how's the Adderall going? 15:21 < fenn> i wonder if i can get a bunch of space nerds to telerobotically mow my lawn 15:33 < kanzure_> I'd do it, if I can get the mower every once in a while 15:33 < kanzure_> the Adderall goes well 15:33 < kanzure_> give it another 20 minutes to kick in. 15:36 < kanzure_> yay it's on 15:37 < kanzure_> http://www.pbs.org/newshour/video/module.html?mod=0&pkg=30122008&seg=4 15:37 < kanzure_> Can anybody get a rip? 15:39 < fenn> how bout i post replicable plans for the mower ins tead 15:40 < kanzure_> You have schematics? 15:42 < fenn> http://www-tc.pbs.org/newshour/video/2008/12/30/20081230_4_living_machines.flv 15:42 < kanzure_> fsck 15:42 < kanzure_> thank you 15:42 < fenn> i used "download helper" an annoying firefox plugin 15:44 < kanzure_> gasp, firefox. 15:45 < fenn> konqueror doesnt have flash installed, and i like it that way 15:48 < fenn> sheesh. "where's your biology license" wtf is that supposed to solve 15:49 < kanzure_> gasp! you don't have a level three classification! you *can't* fuck! 15:49 < fenn> welcome to China! 15:52 < kanzure_> "god kills a kitten every .." 15:52 < kanzure_> that could be made into an interesting 4chan meme I'm sure. 15:58 < kanzure_> okay 15:58 < kanzure_> here we go 15:58 < kanzure_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL4l8tg8oOU 16:10 < fenn> hmm 4chan mention and anonymous youtube URL 16:10 < fenn> do I really want to look? 16:10 < kanzure_> the youtube url is supposed to be the news clip 16:10 < kanzure_> yesterday I asked how long it would take to get the clip on youtube 16:10 < kanzure_> so apparently I have to do it myself :p 16:10 < fenn> ah 16:11 < kanzure_> "This video has been removed due to terms of use violation." 16:11 < kanzure_> holy shit 16:11 < kanzure_> they work fast? 16:11 < kanzure_> "Rejected (length of video is too long)" 16:11 < kanzure_> hjlfdj;k.fdaskjl;fadsl; 16:12 < fenn> you can probably chop off the breast cancer stuff at the end to get it under 10 mins 16:13 < kanzure_> how cruel 16:13 < fenn> i sort of wonder why the magical 10 minutes 16:13 < kanzure_> you know that's how they sometimes deal with breast cancer, right? 16:13 < kanzure_> "eh just chop it off" 16:13 < fenn> we're living in the dark ages, remember 16:13 < kanzure_> oh. 16:14 < kanzure_> gah, I have no video editing tools 16:14 < kanzure_> suggestions? 16:14 < fenn> one sec 16:15 < kanzure_> gopchop? inigo? openmovieeditor? 16:16 < fenn> mencoder 20081230_4_living_machines.flv -ovc copy -oac copy -endpos 10:00 -o yourvid.flv 16:16 < kanzure_> why can't youtube just shop it off 16:17 < kanzure_> shop heh' 16:17 < fenn> mencoder 20081230_4_living_machines.flv -ovc copy -oac copy -endpos 532 -o yourvid.flv 16:17 < kanzure_> mencoder is from where now? 16:17 < fenn> that's the right endtime 16:18 < fenn> from a shell, silly 16:18 < kanzure_> apt-cache search mencoder -> vstream-client ? 16:18 < kanzure_> but installing vstream-client doesn't get it. 16:18 < fenn> wtf 16:18 < fenn> it comes with mplayer 16:18 < kanzure_> but.. 16:18 < fenn> have you never ripped a video before in linux? 16:18 < kanzure_> guess not 16:18 < kanzure_> wtf, apt-get install mplayer is downloading some stuff 16:18 < kanzure_> how is it that I can run mplayer though without 16:18 < kanzure_> without mplayer being installed? 16:19 < kanzure_> maybe it's a new package 16:19 < kanzure_> nope, mencoder still not found 16:19 < fenn> mencoder is its own package apparently 16:19 < fenn> oh, i'm using debian-multimedia btw 16:19 < kanzure_> dfjladka 16:19 < kanzure_> okay 16:19 * kanzure_ goes to the sources 16:19 < fenn> the regular debian mplayer package is fubared 16:19 < fenn> go to debian-multimedia.net 16:20 < fenn> er, .org 16:20 < fenn> and then add some stuffs to your /etc/apt/sources.list 16:20 < kanzure_> righ right 16:20 < kanzure_> deb http://debian-multimedia.org/ etch main 16:20 < kanzure_> apt-get update 16:20 < kanzure_> the whole song and dance. 16:20 < fenn> but i dont get why you wouldnt have mencoder if you have mplayer already 16:21 < kanzure_> hrm, broken packages? 16:21 < kanzure_> "the following packages have unmet dependencies: libavcodeccvs51, libavformatcvs51, libavutilcvs49, libpostproccvs51" 16:22 < kanzure_> -f install doesn't fix. 16:22 < kanzure_> am fixing.. 16:30 < kanzure_> mencoder still not found. Even after fixing those problems, and installing mplayer. 16:31 < kanzure_> Ah, separate package. 16:46 < kanzure_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IIWH6Hhcnc <-- new url. wait for it to process please. 16:49 -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbe-ac02-35-220.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:49 < kanzure_> hi PeerInfinity. 16:50 < PeerInfinity> hi kanzure :) 16:51 < PeerInfinity> thanks again for showing me this chatroom :) 16:55 < kanzure_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IIWH6Hhcnc finally 17:03 < PeerInfinity> congratulations :) --- Log closed Wed Dec 31 17:55:10 2008 --- Log opened Thu Jan 01 23:56:42 2009 23:56 -!- kanzure_ [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:56 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 15 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 15 normal] 23:56 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 1 secs 23:56 < kanzure_> Back on my box.