--- Day changed Sun Jan 11 2009
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00:00 < gene_> I don't want to know
00:05 < fenn> http://www.shirky.com/writings/ontology_overrated.html  some diagrams, blarg
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11:41 < kanzure_> http://roboticscourseware.org/
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11:56 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/shots/2009-01-11_AustinAmericanStatesman_obit.png
--- Log closed Sun Jan 11 12:12:04 2009
--- Log opened Sat Jan 17 14:30:05 2009
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14:38 < kanzure> samrose: I just got an email from Zach Smith.
14:38 < kanzure> apparently he's the only programmer behind thingiverse
14:38 < kanzure> and he's totally for the packaging format stuffs :) 
14:38 < kanzure> and in fact it seems like he'd be willing to do some collaboration
14:39 < kanzure> you mentioned you were wanting to do something similar a while back, esp. re: the web interface.
15:02 < genehacker_> hahaha
15:03 < kanzure> Zack Hoecken, I mean.
15:03 < kanzure> genehacker_: Are you back yet?
15:03 < genehacker_> I know who Zach is
15:03 < genehacker_> I will be today why?
15:03 < kanzure> Just wondering. Sata was asking when he was at my house on Thursday.
15:04 < genehacker_> I'm thinking of making some stuff for thingiverse
15:04 < kanzure> will you CC-BY-SA it?
15:04 < genehacker_> well I don't think I will be able to take much in the way of algae samples
15:04 < kanzure>  *will you license it as CC-BY-SA
15:05 < genehacker_> in order to take an algae samples I have to take 2 liters of water
15:05 < genehacker_> yeah sure
15:05 < genehacker_> does SKDB work to some degree?
15:06 < genehacker_> could I throw a bunch of parts into it to see if I could make something that could assemble itself from the parts?
15:07 < kanzure> to some degree. let me explain:
15:07 < kanzure> you can throw those parts in, yes, and if you wanted to see if they could make all of the parts that you throw in, that would be doable
15:07 < kanzure> but what you want to do is check *assembly* which is something a bit different than just make-dependencies
15:07 < kanzure> for just the make-dependency analysis, you don't need to do much really
15:08 < kanzure> but for assembly, that would require the instructions to be in some data object
15:08 < genehacker_> could you do it for legos?
15:08 < kanzure> so here's how you'd do assembly checking
15:08 < kanzure> you'd look at the instructions for assembling the overall part, and then you'd check to see if each of the steps involved goes to the other parts only
15:09 < kanzure> so if you say "step 2 move part 3 to part 4" then it will stab you in the face
15:09 < kanzure> unless 'move' is a part too.
15:09 < kanzure> (and it won't actually look like "step 2 move part 3 to part 4" .. that's why I say XML/YAML/data-object-thingy)
15:09 < kanzure> there was this huge thread on om about recipe representation actually
15:10 < kanzure3> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/tree/browse_frm/thread/a8d8ee245aaae97d/7a19a3b45e8f94d5?rnum=1&q=recipe+representation&_done=%2Fgroup%2Fopenmanufacturing%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2Fa8d8ee245aaae97d%3Ftvc%3D1%26q%3Drecipe%2Brepresentation%26#doc_7a19a3b45e8f94d5
15:10 < genehacker_> lego cad software has a handy dandy, make into step feature
15:10 < kanzure> lego instructions are always pictorial though
15:10 < kanzure> right?
15:10 < genehacker_> yeah
15:10 < kanzure> hrm, I might as well check it out though
15:11 < kanzure> I do remember using a lego cad program once, but it wasn't from Lego the company
15:11 < genehacker_> then download MLcad
15:11 < kanzure> is this the one with "make into step"?
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15:12 < genehacker_> yeah
15:12 < genehacker_> it's still pictorial though
15:12 < kanzure> so basically: state of your lego construction before, state of your lego thingy afterwards,
15:12 < kanzure> and then it just spits out a rendering of the state change?
15:12 < genehacker_> yeah, and you can figure it out from there
15:12 < genehacker_> pretty much
15:13 < kanzure> not what I was hoping for, but ok
15:13 < genehacker_> I don't really know that much about it
15:13 < genehacker_> I haven't tried the make step feature
15:16 < kanzure> ldraw027.exe hangs on extraction via wine.
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15:17 < kanzure> "processing archive: Z:\... \n archive date: 1997-07-25 00:05:24 \n Continue extraction? no" <- infinite loop
15:17 < kanzure> or something.
15:19 < kanzure3> http://arj.sourcearchive.com/documentation/3.10.22/arjsfx_8c-source.html   blah .. have to compile it myself maybe?
15:19 < samrose> kanzure, yeah! I am interested for sure
15:19 < samrose> met Zack Smith online
15:19 < kanzure> ah, good
15:20 < samrose> we should figure out a way to coordinate. I was mirroring your backend work, and trying to make it all work with python tools (mercurial, hatta wiki, etc)
15:20 < kanzure> well, supposedly that's what OM is for
15:20 < kanzure> if it weren't for the damned economists
15:20 < kanzure> naysaying economists as it were..
15:20 < samrose> mercurial = GIT hatta = whatever that wiki engine you were using is, etc
15:21 < genehacker_> well what I want to find out is if there is a set of lego parts capable of apply enough force to put together and pull apart other lego parts
15:21 < kanzure> what I recommended to Zach was that he could help out by just dumping the CC content and then I'd write up some shell scripts to pretty up the data a bit
15:21 < samrose> ah, yeah. I am probably jumping ahead a bit
15:21 < kanzure> but his data will not have an 'instructions format' nor interoperability information.
15:22 < kanzure> nor dependency information
15:22 < kanzure> so at a minimum I want to get the data set out there
15:22 < kanzure> and then we can all go on a metadata spree all over it heh'
15:23 < kanzure> (as opposed to me writing a crawler over thingiverse, which I would have done anyway, but at least this way we might get some of the data in a pretty format)
15:23 < kanzure> genehacker_: wait, what? That sounds simpler than what you wanted to do earlier.
15:23 < kanzure> just go look at the lego catalog for lego actuator parts..
15:24 < genehacker_> I mean sets of parts capable of grasping parts
15:25 < kanzure> brb, fetching lunch
15:26 < genehacker_> packing so I am semi here
15:33 < kanzure> wow
15:33 < kanzure> so it worked, it's a 'pending transaction' according to the broker/bank
15:34 < kanzure> for precisely $0.37
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17:24 < genehacker_> afk, email if you have any questions kanzure
17:24 < kanzure> k
18:15 < kanzure3> well that's disappointing. Wesley Crusher grew up to become a twitterfag: http://twitter.com/wilw
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19:19 < kanzure> Hi samrose.
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23:25  * kanzure goes over his father's financial records
23:26 < kanzure> "last updated: 2009-01-05" .. blah..
23:26 < kanzure> hrm. this is rather revealing. wtf is all of this.
23:26 < fenn> death and taxes, which do you think will be conquered first?
23:27 < kanzure> (1) what would happen if the house spontaneously went up in flames now? insurance policies are still in effect
23:27 < fenn> is there some way to access a deceased person's online accounts?
23:27 < kanzure> (2) yes
23:27 < kanzure> thousands of passwords all written down in a neatly organized notebook and excel doc
23:28 < kanzure> cross-referenced to account numbers, totals, projections, mutual funds, stocks, bonds, assets, property, ..
23:28 < kanzure> this is sick.
23:28 < fenn> well, that's nice if they keep that info around, but i dont write down passwords for example
23:28 < kanzure> s/they/he/
23:30 < kanzure> ok, time for me to go do some logging in
23:30 < kanzure> I doubt the others would bother to save teh transaction logs anyway
23:35 < fenn> is datahub like for screen scraping?
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23:45 < genehacker> hey kanzure, you there?
23:45 < genehacker> I'm back
23:45 < kanzure3> yes
23:45 < kanzure3> just going through dad's financials
23:45 < kanzure3> and reading fenn's guinea-pig log.
23:46 < kanzure3> fenn, are you maintaining consistent written ways of saying the same activities that you have done over long periods of time? i.e., the domestics prefix seems to be common, but net isn't domestic, or something
23:50 < fenn> yes the categories are consistent except for the first six months or so
23:50 < fenn> out of four years
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23:50 < kanzure3> fenn, let's say that you spontaneously do something new today that hasn't been said before
23:50 < kanzure3> and then you do this same new thing a few months from now
23:50 < genehacker_> winblows just crashed
23:50 < kanzure3> how do you preserve the categorization?
23:51 < fenn> um.. i don't
23:51 < kanzure3> without digging through the logs
23:51 < kanzure3> don't do anything new, or don't preserve it?
23:51 < kanzure3> I guess I'm looking at it the wrong way
23:51 < fenn> i figure a category with 2 entries isnt much worse than 2 categories with one entry
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23:51 < kanzure3> "long-term analysis v. back-tracing at a particular time for something bad"
23:52 < fenn> or something good
23:52 < kanzure3> (whereas the analysis stuff would require very coherent classification)
23:52 < fenn> i wish i had figured out some way to keep track of how i feel (physiologically)
23:52 < fenn> not really
23:53 < fenn> consider words as tags
23:53 < kanzure3> pulse, weight, blood pressure, but this doesn't convey much information unless you spontaneously get radiation sickness
23:53 < genehacker> what are you talking about, what did I miss?
23:53 < kanzure3> yeah, even if words were tags, I was thinking of 'using the data for broad generalizations' which data generally shouldn't be used for
23:53 < kanzure3> genehacker: obsessive compulsive life logging
23:53 < fenn> a post on a mailing list you arent subscribed to
23:53 < genehacker> ah cool
23:54  * kanzure3 glances at dad's obsessive compulsive financial logging..
23:54 < kanzure3> all hail the mighty dollar
23:54 < fenn> i wonder if datahub does anything
23:54 < kanzure3> oops, sorry, lemme check the emails
23:55 < kanzure3> http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/DataHub
23:56 < kanzure3> so it looks like django to me
23:56 < fenn> yeah but what is the end result?
23:56 < kanzure3> well, the email was talking about folders for the 'main steps of the work cycle'
23:56 < fenn> is there a demo or screenshots or something?
23:56 < kanzure3> scrape-parse-put somewhere-document-visualize
23:56 < genehacker> hey the dollar is the best thing we have until wuffie
23:57 < fenn> genehacker: why can't we do whuffie now?
23:57 < kanzure3> but what could these templates be? parsing is the domain of regexps, surely there's no black magic in this datahub thingy
23:57 < kanzure3> why can't we do no money now?
23:57  * kanzure3 hands out free energy
23:57 < fenn> http://bitchun.org/
23:57 < kanzure3> http://bitcoin.org/
23:57 < fenn> hrm seems bitchun went downhill
23:58 < kanzure3> <-- is secretly just an associative bayesian filtering system
23:58 < genehacker> kanzure you can't get free energy, you can however steal energy from other universes
23:58 < kanzure3> genehacker: free as in monetarily free
23:58 < kanzure3> free as in really free.
23:58 < genehacker> monetarily free a hundred billion years from now?
23:58 < kanzure3> restate?
23:59 < genehacker> after all the stars die and things get cold
23:59 < fenn> if one could steal energy from other universes, why dont we see a deficit of energy?
23:59 < fenn> anyway it's academic.. we get 1kW/m^2 on earth approx 12 hours a day
23:59 < genehacker> it's a joke fenn, it'd be better emigrate to other universes than steal energy from them