--- Day changed Mon Feb 09 2009
00:30 < kanzure3_> if Amazon had half a brain, they'd turn Kindle into "rekindle", a creative commons front.
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00:45 < kanzure3_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/shelltrance.txt
00:45 < kanzure3_> well, you get the idea. not quite what I want though.
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09:47 < kanzure3_> what the fuck
09:47 < kanzure3_> http://tinyurl.com/b4lrvm "what’s a fab lab good for? (killing Americans & American jobs?)"
09:49 < kanzure3_> "Inside the Elphel open source camera: LinuxDevices has published a paper that goes deep into into the open sou.. http://tinyurl.com/dmo3ly"
09:50 < kanzure3_> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2009/02/inside_the_elphel_open_source_camer.html?CMP=OTC-0D6B48984890
09:50 < kanzure3_> http://www3.elphel.com/software_browse
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09:59 < kanzure3_> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:319 Oomlaut's automatic wire stripper
10:06 < kanzure3_> oomlout
10:13 < kanzure> ugh. got an email from Eugen Leitl about "econophysicists" and their "identification of the world's top 10 most powerful companies"
10:13 < kanzure> *stab stab stab*
10:15 < fenn> econophysicist eh
10:16 < fenn> are there econochemists and econobiologists too?
10:24 < kanzure> I wonder why oomlout was so disinterested in collaboration.
10:25 < fenn> how's that?
10:26 < kanzure3_> they're the ones who did an instructable on a 3-axis cnc machine, and now the automatic wire strippers,
10:26 < fenn> so?
10:26 < kanzure3_> and when I emailed them, offering them the openmanufacturing list and such, they kindly asked me "if we're doing anything wrong, we'll change from using 'open manufacturing' to something else"
10:26 < kanzure3_> i.e., very defensive. it was weird.
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10:27 < fenn> i wonder how long until someone trademarks "open manufacturing"
10:30 < fenn> hmmmmm @ http://wiki.elphel.com/images/7/70/10353-10369-assy_blowup.jpeg
10:30 < kanzure3_> yay for mspaint arrows
11:00 < kanzure3_> Fluorophores.org - Database of fluorescent dyes.
11:00 < kanzure3_> http://wikiscope.org/index.php?title=Main_Page
11:06 < kanzure3_> http://minduploading.org/pipermail/murg/
11:18 < fenn> Fear the newest weapon in the war of music piracy! ARRRRR! http://www.flickr.com/photos/31040609%40N02/3211092627/in/pool-make
11:18 < fenn> just don't leave it lying around in Boston
11:19 < kanzure3_> "This is the worlds most utterly badass mp3 player. So badass in fact that you can't use it as you might die a horrible painful death."
11:19 < kanzure3_> I think I'll mail one to ladyada, or whoever that poor chick was from the Boston-area airport.
11:20 < kanzure3_> it needs to have a loudspeaker attached to it
11:21 < kanzure3_> I was figuring it would be something that you toss into a crowd and it plays RIAA music and then charges every single person $15 or whatever the cost of the song was
11:21 < kanzure3_> then proceed to toss it into a crowd at some fancy dinner.
11:53 < kanzure> *poke*
11:53 < kanzure> fenn: get to the les email.
11:55 < fenn> wah
11:55 < kanzure3_> what an odd thing to complain about
11:59 < fenn> i find it hard to dump my life story on someone i dont know much about and have never talked to
11:59 < kanzure3_> what can I do
12:02 < fenn> nothing, just kick me in the ass every once in a while
12:02 < fenn> eventually enough momentum will be imparted that i'll begin to move
12:02 < kanzure3_> what I'm trying to figure out is how to guarantee to Les that "this time, we mean it for reals"
12:02 < kanzure3_> because other times he's had these initiatives fail. last time it was because techshop sucked.
12:03 < fenn> we need to analyze why techshop failed
12:03 < fenn> because it sounds like a great idea to me
12:03 < kanzure3_> ho ho ho, he did. he has a great deal of work on that.
12:03 < fenn> i'm looking forward to seeing it
12:03 < kanzure3_> well, it turns out it was because the business model was to have members paying $100/mo
12:03 < kanzure3_> but then if you look at the number of tools that you have, and then the maximum capacity,
12:03 < kanzure3_> there's this huge discrepancy.
12:03 < fenn> is $100/mo not enough?
12:03 < kanzure3_> it's not enough, but also too much for an individual to pay.
12:03 < fenn> right
12:03 < fenn> i dont see why the tools cost so much
12:04 < kanzure3_> also re: max capacity of tool stations
12:04 < kanzure3_> he's been building the $100k+ machines for $2k, that sort of thing
12:04 < kanzure3_> I'm still surprised he was so much in line with what I was spewing
12:04 < kanzure3_> if somebody spent nearly 100% of their time on this project,
12:04 < kanzure3_> I wonder if that would be enough?
12:05 < fenn> how much is enough? :)
12:05 < fenn> i dont think one person by themself is enough (been there, done that)
12:05 < kanzure3_> well, there's also les.
12:06 < kanzure3_> I think we can get four: me, you, les, treadwell, and then there's lots of others that have some varying degree of understanding of what's going on
12:06 < kanzure3_> I don't know if though if you have a "core team" that understands the 'vision' is enough
12:06 < kanzure3_> (oh, also rauchwerk, but I don't know if he's interested in devoting time to this)
12:06 < fenn> as long as we dont kill each other it should be great :)
12:06 < kanzure3_> heh. "turn that light off! rawr"
12:08 < fenn> reminds me of bugs bunny
12:08 < kanzure3_> how's that?
12:10 < kanzure3_> les' priority might be getting some of the space rented out. in which case, the priority then is just randomly finding people off of craigslist interested in the coworking space. then it can start paying for itself. although maybe the consulting model would work (if les doesn't want to be a part of that, that's fine)- and get some funds in the name of the fablab in place.
12:10 < fenn> "Turn out that light!" is a reference to countless WWII era cartoons  which used that same phrase.  This refers to the  mandatory blackouts of cities to prevent against night bombing.  
12:11 < kanzure3_> or, maybe it would be a better idea to just do the mechmate kits first or something.
12:11 < kanzure3_> hrm. I don't know where to begin.
12:11 < fenn> do the kits first?  i thought mechmate was assembled and done?
12:11 < fenn> or you mean building them and shipping aruond the world
12:11 < kanzure3_> yes.
12:12 < fenn> ok
12:12 < kanzure3_> also, the mechmate is only partially done
12:12 < kanzure3_> the electronics aren't assembled, but they are laying around
12:12 < kanzure3_> and there's a welding bug that has to be fixed.
12:12 < fenn> well that sounds familiar
12:12 < fenn> i'll make sure to bring a round tuit
12:13 < fenn> god i want to kill whoever decided to make images for signed-in-only on vbulletin
12:14 < fenn> (as the default)
12:14 < kanzure3_> sad that I once thought that I was 1337 for finding cracked versions of vbulletin
12:14 < fenn> heh
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12:28 < xp_prg> hi anyone here?
12:28 < kanzure3_> no
12:28 < fenn> ouch
12:30 < xp_prg> I have basic wet lab questions, anyone interested?
12:34 < kanzure3_> please don't ask to ask.
12:34 < xp_prg> ok, lets say I get the igem dna, what does it come in?
12:35 < xp_prg> its like 3000 bio brick parts
12:35 < kanzure3_> you mean, biobricks dna?
12:35 < kanzure3_> last I heard, it's on paper in a notebook/binder
12:35 < xp_prg> ya
12:35 < xp_prg> it is not a solution with dna in it?
12:35 < kanzure3_> nope
12:35 < xp_prg> I don't think your correct
12:35 < xp_prg> they send you and igem "kit"
12:36 < kanzure3_> when you order DNA anyway, you usually get it without solution, i.e. draw
12:36 < kanzure3_> *dry
12:36 < xp_prg> what is dry dna?
12:37 < kanzure> like a powder
12:37 < xp_prg> hmm... ok, then what do you do with it?
12:37 < kanzure> make a solution.
12:37 < kanzure> usually.
12:38 < xp_prg> what is in the solution, just water?
12:38 < kanzure> usually.
12:38 < xp_prg> is it pure water?
12:38 < kanzure> most definitely, must be.
12:38 < kanzure> (brb, laundry)
12:43 < kanzure> back.
12:43 < fenn> biobricks come on filter paper
12:46 < xp_prg> so then I put it into water, then what do I do with it?
12:48 < kanzure3_> splice it into a plasmid vector
12:48 < kanzure3_> you'll probably want to PCR it though, so that you have more of the same.
12:49 < xp_prg> when do I want to use gel electrophloresis?
12:50 < kanzure3_> "To check whether the PCR generated the anticipated DNA fragment (also sometimes referred to as the amplimer or amplicon), agarose gel electrophoresis is employed for size separation of the PCR products. The size(s) of PCR products is determined by comparison with a DNA ladder (a molecular weight marker), which contains DNA fragments of known size, run on the gel alongside the PCR products (see Fig. 3)."
12:50 < kanzure3_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCR
12:50 < kanzure3_> fenn: I wonder if the biobrick binder people are kind enough to provide a ladder.
12:51 < kanzure3_> (although you shouldn't trust it even if they do)
12:52 < fenn> i dont believe in molecules anyway
12:52 < kanzure3_> a conspiracy?
12:52 < fenn> creative fantasy
12:54 < fenn> i dislike the gel ladder mentality
12:54 < fenn> it's partly why i wrote that post to diybio
12:54 < fenn> biologists are so technically inept they are constantly finding ways to do things with the sloppiest techniques possible
12:55 < fenn> but if their methods had decent repeatability you wouldn't need to run a calibration marker every single time
12:55 < kanzure3_> where'd all our talk go re a non-gel method?
12:56 < fenn> nowhere, it was co-opted by "keiki gels"
12:56 < kanzure3_> there was an article about a silicon surface used instead of gel electrophoresis, but IIRC it required some fancy semiconductor manufacturing
12:56 < kanzure3_> http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/browse_thread/thread/d0a7810ba4162999/b597cf79cd1542ff?lnk=gst&q=artificial+gel+electrophoresis#b597cf79cd1542ff
12:56 < kanzure3_> wtf, I mentioned straws?
12:56 < fenn> there's nothing wrong with gels inherently
12:56 < kanzure3_> oct 19 2008
12:57 < kanzure3_> " 
12:57 < kanzure3_> DNA electrophoresis in microfabricated arrays:"
12:57 < fenn> huh. looks like tito was already thinking about this
12:58 < kanzure3_> yay for our collective inability to remember what we wrote.
12:59 < fenn> this is the inherent flaw of mailing lists
12:59 < kanzure3_> recently I've been linking back to my earlier posts more frequently.
12:59 < kanzure3_> new members not knowing what was discussed before (who the hell- other than me- reads archives?)
13:00 < kanzure3_> http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/browse_thread/thread/94fe267781ba2d99/fd2a9ba42f3ce7e7?lnk=gst&q=gel#fd2a9ba42f3ce7e7
13:00 < kanzure3_> aha, the july post.
13:00 < xp_prg> what is this opensource camera thing?
13:00 < kanzure3_> nope, wrong link.
13:00 < kanzure3_> xp_prg: open source hardware :)
13:01 < xp_prg> what does the camera do that is better than a normal camera?
13:01 < kanzure3_> the information on how to make it is free.
13:01 < kanzure3_> (more or less)
13:05 < fenn> you can hack the sensor frontend
13:05 < kanzure3_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/High%20resolution%20DNA%20separations%20using%20microchip%20electrophoresis.pdf High resolution DNA separations using microchip electrophoresis
13:05 < kanzure3_> http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=site:heybryan.org+gel+electrophoresis&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
13:05 < fenn> for doing stuff like this (i guess): http://thomaspfeifer.net/fpga_dsp_bildverarbeitung.htm
13:05 < fenn> watch the videos
13:05 < kanzure3_> I wish I could find the original links on gels-but-with-no-gels
13:07 < fenn> um, scroll down to "squirrel tracker"
13:17 < fenn> he later goes on to do augmented reality with barcodes
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13:52 < fenn> kanzure3_: http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/les-email
13:52 < fenn> is he a telephone sort of person?
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14:28 < fenn> "if you too have a few stepper motors, a hand-held wire stripper and a bunch of nuts and bolts your life, too, can become easier." and a frickin LASER
15:03 < fenn> can we ban fawzi yet? wah
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15:55 < fenn> man, "dragon's egg" only sold for $10k
15:55 < fenn> and because of that we have to deal with copyright crap for the rest of eternity?
15:55 < fenn> sigh..
16:00 < kanzure> fenn: he and I met by email, he called me once to signify that he was within the area to pick me up. 
16:01 < kanzure> at one point a few months ago I realized I had picked up a nasty habit
16:01 < kanzure> when I sent an email to Dr. Campbell, I'd walk into his office to give him a little summary of what was in it
16:02 < kanzure> this is precisely the same stupid shit that people complain about "they send an email and then they *walk over* to ask if I've read it"
16:02 < kanzure> so I don't know whether or not you should call him just before/after sending it
16:03 < kanzure> also, one too many exclamation marks  in first few sentences.
16:03 < kanzure> also, I mentioned to him - when I was at his warehouse - that it would be fun to have you living in there. you might want to clarify that this won't be the case.
16:04 < kanzure> don't know how serious he thought I was- I joke somewhat from time to time.
16:05 < fenn> hum. one exclamation mark is too many?
16:05 < kanzure3_> I counted two
16:05 < kanzure3_> does the salutation not count?
16:05 < fenn> i only see one
16:05 < fenn> oh "this is great news!"
16:06 < kanzure3_> that's fine, but the salutation feels funny then
16:06 < fenn> oh well
16:06 < kanzure3_> i'd s/workshop/fablab/ and do a few other things,
16:06 < kanzure3_> is it ok if I modify your email a bit and send it back your way?
16:06 < fenn> yeah i bounced back and forth on fablab/workshop
16:06 < fenn> i already sent it
16:06 < kanzure3_> workshop feels less serious 
16:06 < kanzure3_> okay
16:06 < fenn> ... and he already responded
16:07 < kanzure3_> oh?
16:07 < kanzure3_> positively?
16:09 < fenn> It would please me to no end to have a work
16:09 < fenn> space big enough for people to live in, at least temporarily, while they work on their big ideas, but that is pretty much
16:09 < fenn> off the table at this point.
16:09 < kanzure3_> is that all?
16:09 < kanzure3_> because you don't have to live there..
16:10 < kanzure3_> I'd be willing to house you if you can chip in a percentage of rent, even if it's not a fair share of rent.
16:10 < fenn> there is a lot more, forwarded..
16:13 < kanzure3_> looks fine to me
16:13 < kanzure3_> :)
16:14 < kanzure3_> I haven't seen him write a long email yet, I'm glad he's coherent
16:18 < kanzure> funny how skdb was supposed to be about "what to do first" and here we have him saying that he also doesn't know what to do next
16:18 < kanzure> I've made a request to Eric Hunting to see if he could apply his brain to this little problem of "holy shit I actually have a fablab"
16:25  * kanzure heads off to buy a book and hand gene the paperwork
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16:54 < kanzure--> wonder when I'll break down and learn screen.
16:54 -!- kanzure-- [i=bryan@dhcp-84-248.me.utexas.edu] has quit [Client Quit]
16:56 < fenn> as soon as you have to mess with remote servers over ssh
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16:58 < kanzure--> So, there are two irssi processes running on the server (where "kanzure" is living). Consequently, the log is filled with dupes. One irssi process is attached to tty2, which I knew. The other is pts/2, what does this mean? Also, where might that process be from? I'm guessing it's kanzure2, but when did I spawn him?
17:20 < kanzure--> Hello tarbo2.
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17:58 < kanzure--> On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Leslie Filip <lfilip@mac.com> wrote:
17:58 < kanzure--> > Excellent observations, all. The devil is in the details, as they say. This
17:58 < kanzure--> > it.
17:58 < kanzure--> > time around I am trying to be as conservative as possible with the plans and
17:58 < kanzure--> > try to focus on a larger goal than just renting out space to whoever wants
20:11 < fenn> "pseudo-terminals (pts) are  used for implementing terminal emulators such as xterm"  
20:12 < fenn> tty = teletype, what you get when you press ctrl-alt-f1
20:23 < fenn> screen is easy
20:23 < fenn> type screen
20:23 < fenn> now type irssi
20:23 < fenn> now press ctrl-a, d
20:23 < fenn> now type screen -x
20:24 < fenn> now type screen -x in another terminal
20:27 < fenn> the hard part for me was learning vim and irssi, (instead of kate and xchat, which dont work so well over ssh)
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21:09 < bkero> You can
21:10 < bkero> xpra lets you attach/detach X windows like screen.
21:10 < bkero> also xmove
21:16 < fenn> yes i learn about this much later (still havent tried xpra)
21:17 < bkero> I could never get it to actually work
21:17 < fenn> yep
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21:17 < fenn> ssh -X really wants to be on a LAN anyway
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21:33 < fenn> thin organic polymeric light emitting semiconductor surfaces (TOPLESS)
21:34 < fenn> seems like one could use a fresnel prism layer to direct light downwards, instead of lamp shades
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22:06 < gene> so I'm watching the matrix
22:06 < gene> and I'm doing thermo
22:06 < gene> ugh
22:07 < gene> THE MATRIX ISN'T THERMODYNAMOCALLY PROFITABLE
22:18 < kanzure> I was just watching the matrix last night.
22:18 < kanzure> (because les looks like neo)
22:19 < kanzure> fenn: yes, I knew what tty is :)
22:27 < gene> but the floating ships are totally possible
22:27 < gene> without any crazy future tech
22:28 < gene> just superconducting magnets superconducting powercables
22:28 < fenn> oh, that's all
22:29 < gene> no really
22:29 < kanzure3_> fenn: did you subscribe to robotgroup?
22:29 < fenn> cavorite is so much simpler
22:29 < gene> ok room temperature sueperconductors
22:29 < fenn> kanzure3_: yes but i havent received anything yet
22:29 < kanzure3_> and if so, are you seeing the shit emails being sent out about everyone with their different plans for les' shop?
22:29 < kanzure3_> I want to stab them :/
22:29 < gene> but damn, the machines look so cool
22:29 < kanzure3_> but I realize that maybe we can bleed money out of them.
22:30 < gene> I totally want to build a reprap with a fluidic control system
22:30 < kanzure3_> first step: make an ISA out of fluidics
22:30 < kanzure3_> second step: lldvm/gcc port for that particular ISA.
22:30 < kanzure3_> then you can directly translate all reprap C/C++ programs into fluidic circuits
22:32 < fenn> and make sure it runs java natively :P
22:32 < gene> kanzure3 you can make flipflops in fluidics
22:32 < kanzure3_> eek..
22:32 < fenn> nothing wrong with java bytecode
22:32 < kanzure3_> nothing?
22:32 < fenn> well, i dont visit hotdog factories either
22:32 < gene> flipflops are the basic element of fluidics
22:32 < fenn> flipflop != inverter
22:33 < kanzure3_> gene: that's fine. now go use VHDL tools like RTL and Verilog and VHDL from gEDA to go make a circuit schematic conversion of typical boolean algebraic circuits into fluidic circuits
22:33 < kanzure3_> erm, I mean, using the boolean algebraic functions, take that definition and apply a "fluidicizer" program
22:33 < fenn> synthesis
22:33 < kanzure3_> (recently on diybio I mentioned C/C++ --> ANNs, this is similar)
22:34 < gene> http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0747630
22:34 < gene> check it out
22:34 < kanzure3_> fenn: so anyway, have you done a followup with les?
22:34 < gene> fluidic gyroscopes
22:35 < kanzure3_> i want a way to guarantee that les isn't going to go run off with these stupid other ideas, i.e. preservation of "core vision"
22:36 < fenn> heh people always screw up square footage math: "4,000 sq ft is 200 on a side"
22:37 < fenn> museums are pretty gay
22:37 < fenn> i dont have any problem with hands-on science
22:37 < kanzure3_> "look! this ridiculously old machine sits around and does nothing!"
22:37 < gene> not the exploritorium fenn
22:37 < kanzure3_> sure, but I'm not sure James Choate should be running things
22:37 < fenn> but if i have to make everything "educational" just so some brat can break it, well, fuck that
22:37 < kanzure3_> right
22:38 < gene> rawr, CAD PROGRAM WON'T LET ME CUT A CURVE, WAI?
22:39 < fenn> "i'm james choate and you better do what i say!"
22:40 < kanzure3_> that's what it feels like.
22:40 < kanzure3_> he also sounded like that when I called him on the phone the other day
22:41 < kanzure3_> (I was calling to ask him to clarify a few of his points, I was astonished and wondering how serious he was..)
22:41 < kanzure3_> he was just really snappy and "I have work right now young man"
22:41 < kanzure3_> and then hung up
22:41 < kanzure3_> (despite being able to send out more emails than Marc Fawzi in a 10 minute period)
22:41 < gene> soon as I make this cut
22:41 < gene> it's cuttable IRL
22:57 < gene> it's IRL
23:04 < kanzure3_> http://xkcd.com/386/ <- bible of my life.
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23:29 < kanzure3_> "
23:29 < kanzure3_> I think it should be called the James Choate Research Center"
23:29 < kanzure3_> yay fenn.
23:33 < kanzure3_> what a weird response he gave.
23:36 < fenn> seems people on robotgroup dont understand how mail threading works
23:36 < kanzure3_> Luke Iseman probably only recently registered
23:36 < kanzure3_> he's the makezine editor down here in Austin
23:37 < kanzure3_> was just having a long discussion between Luke and David Nunez (dorkbot-austin initiator, used to be working closely with Les on techshop-austin)
23:37 < kanzure3_> so David probably told him to go off on to the robotgroup list.
23:37 < kanzure3_> consequently, threading was broken.
23:38 < fenn> no, it's totally borked in multiple places
23:39 < fenn> often starting with brooks
23:39 < kanzure3_> brooks is a moron
23:39 < kanzure3_> in fact, many of these people are
23:40 < fenn> it's true, that's life
23:40 < fenn> who has time to spend on a robot club mailing list :)
23:40 < kanzure3_> only people who aren't, on that list, are generally vern and les, and les has only recently shown up
23:49 < fenn> "My lack of participation in The Robot Group meetings and activities  
23:49 < fenn> has more to do with my desire to put in place the infrastructure  
23:49 < fenn> needed to build things than with the desire to talk about building  
23:49 < fenn> things."
23:49 < fenn> hey that sounds familiar
23:50 < kanzure3_> gee.
23:50 < kanzure3_> (thanks lazyweb!)