--- Day changed Tue Feb 10 2009
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00:14 < kanzure3_> (12:13:33 AM) David Nunez: I think ONE person could easily operate as a business within the context of a fablab as a separate entity from the space itself, pay their fair share, contribute to the community, etc AND make a decent personal income.
00:14 < kanzure3_> (12:13:51 AM) David Nunez: I think that person could also hire members of the fablab.
00:14 < fenn> given that person has experience running a successful business
00:15 < fenn> a lot of people have to flail around and screw up 5 or 6 businesses before they figure it out
00:15 < kanzure3_> separation of fablab and consulting gigs.
00:15 < fenn> yes, but if the gigs fail the fablab can't pay rent
00:15 < fenn> so it's not totally separate
00:15 < kanzure3_> payoff ratio should be high enough?
00:15 < kanzure3_> hrm
00:15 < fenn> i dont know, never done "real" consulting
00:16 < kanzure3_> first edition fablab mechmate kit might sell on ebay for a ridiculous sum, maybe that would be enough for a while :p
00:16 < fenn> nor do i know what sort of businesses exist in austin
00:16 < fenn> yeah maybe in a million years
00:16 < kanzure3_> austin is like denver but less high.
00:16 < kanzure3_> also a little bit like madison, wisconsin
00:17 < fenn> um. so lots of biotech labs? (thats all i know about denver since my aunt/uncle work at national jewish hospital)
00:17 < fenn> and an airport!
00:17 < kanzure3_> there's supposedly a good number of biotech startups, but we're talking super-million IP thingies that I'm not really sure are doing anything
00:17 < fenn> well they have more money than sense, that's good
00:18 < fenn> i need a manager
00:18 < fenn> or an "agent" i guess
00:18 < kanzure3_> didn't I say that the other day? except for myself?
00:18 < fenn> i might have given you the idea earlier :P
00:19 < kanzure3_> no sir, I think it is I who gave you that particular idea.
00:21 < fenn> harrrumph
00:21 < fenn> no i got the idea while talking to my roomate about how it takes a certain set of skills to get hired
00:27 < gene> ahem kanzure, you know what taq polymerase is?
00:28 < kanzure> yes
00:28 < gene> and how profitable it was
00:29 < fenn> is the patent up yet?
00:30 < davidnunez> I think my point (from watching some other spaces try the "we'll consult to pay the rent" approach) is that it turns out consulting involves a lot of overhead (finding gigs, servicing contracts, etc) that take away from the core purpose of a fablab
00:30 < fenn> davidnunez: i want to make fablabs, ship 'em out by the dozens
00:31 < fenn> because nobody is doing that
00:31 < davidnunez> I think getting a group of people together to build a space is enough of a major job w/o the overhead of running a business AS A GROUP.
00:31 < davidnunez> However, with a subtle shift in group dynamics... this may work.  
00:32 < davidnunez> For example, I think an entrepreneur could pay his share of the fablab rent through a small product that he develops using fablab resources.
00:32 < kanzure> sure, les is totally in on that.
00:33 < gene> yup patent is up
00:33 < davidnunez> so you have a loose affiliation of builders.  some are freelancing... some have day jobs... some are designing products... at the end of the month, though, everyone is responsible for producing their fare share of $X
00:33 < fenn> a fab-coop
00:33 < fenn> or something
00:33 < davidnunez> nice. 
00:34 < davidnunez> I think nycresistor acts exactly this way.
00:34 < kanzure> interestingly enough, pinkarmy is also a coop. just using more of the personalized biotech stuff as the coop open source goodness.
00:34 < kanzure> nycresistor is just a sowing circle IIRC
00:34 < fenn> how does resistor pay for their space?
00:35 < fenn> duh. nevermind
00:35 < davidnunez> The core members each provide their fair share.  They also hold fundraising events and classes... but individuals in the group produce those... (and by offering those services, they are in essence paying their share)
00:36 < davidnunez> But if you scan their member list, they each are doing their own thing for the majority of their time... is my point.
00:36 < davidnunez> ...and are heavy hitters in their own right.  They are less a sewing circle than they are a cult of personalities.  but they have stuff in their space that I would love to get my hands on.
00:37 < davidnunez> I don't know how open their membership is.  
00:37 < davidnunez> I suspect it's tough to get in.  which is another way it might differ from my understanding of what a fablab might be
00:38 < kanzure> we need to convince les to "lock in" on the core team and do membership like that. but he also wants to rent out the space to "whoever the hell can help pay the rent"- maybe we can have him allow priority to fablab-cohorts.
00:38 < fenn> depends what you mean "get in"
00:38 < fenn> access to the space and entitlement are two different things
00:41 < gene> hmmm... perhaps we could set up a bunch of fablabs around the country and pool resources
00:41 < davidnunez> that make sense.  So I'm in Boston.  I've been to the Fab Lab in south boston.  My experience is that it's actually really closed.  There are open lab nights where you could, theoretically, get in there for a few minutes and lasercut something.  So, from that perspective, it's easy to "get in."  However, I've met lots of people now, that have all said, "actually, the lab is open all the time... you just have
00:41 < kanzure> already happening, gene.
00:41 < kanzure> davidnunez: cutoff at "you just have"
00:41 < gene> dang
00:42 < kanzure> gene: what's bad about that?
00:42 < davidnunez> ... you just have to know the right labbie who will vouch for you... and you have to have gone to MIT"
00:42 < gene> how much does it cost to laser cut something?
00:42 < gene> just electricity?
00:42 < davidnunez> free.
00:42 < kanzure> :)
00:42 < davidnunez> right. 
00:42 < gene> 3d printer usage?
00:42 < kanzure> heh, I don't think you get it gene
00:43 < davidnunez> I think you have to account for a per-hour cost on a lasercutter because the laser diode goes out after a certain number of hours and needs replacement
00:43 < gene> I thought they used tubes instead of diodes
00:43 < davidnunez> Not sure.  I think you have to pay for material to use.
00:43 < kanzure> so, it's highly "select", it seems, davidnunez
00:43 < davidnunez> gene: diodes/tubes.. whatever needs replacing
00:43 < kanzure> I guess that's how they are able to maintain that high quality vibe or whatever it is that is sustaining htem
00:44 < fenn> <- sick of hearing about laser cutters
00:44 < kanzure> although this can happen in a place like boston very easily because of the large number of people
00:44 < kanzure> what about in a place like austin? if we were going to limit it to people like fenn, we'd just have les or something
00:44 < gene> well you did go to maker faire here kanzure...
00:45 < kanzure> meh, "popular science" crowd.
00:45 < fenn> i dont see the point in limiting access to the space to me and les
00:45 < davidnunez> the thing about fablabs is that they are supposed to be "open" for the community and in fact should be geared towards the very lowest skillset
00:45 < kanzure> and the fablab people that were there were already mentioned (i.e., alec and friends)
00:45 < kanzure> davidnunez: yes, but there still has to be a "captain" at the helm that is maintaining the vibe/culture
00:45 < davidnunez> so that's disappointing about the boston fab lab since it seems to operate counter to purpose
00:45 < kanzure> otherwise it would just be a sowing circle, as I said :)
00:45 < fenn> resistor is a sewing circle because they arent using the space to support the space and other endeavors
00:46 < fenn> if it's just a hobby it will look like a hobby and be bound to hobby considerations
00:46 < kanzure> sewing.
00:46 < kanzure> right, for us this is a bit more than a hobby- maybe we're taking this a bit too seriously? i doubt it
00:46 < davidnunez> fenn: Laser cutter is the one tool that I do not have that I would gladly pay a monthly fee to access.  as it is, I'm seriously just considering dropping the 6-10K needed to get one
00:46 < fenn> on the other hand, if it's a business you make more excuses to buy fancy toys :)
00:46 < fenn> bah
00:46 < gene> same here
00:46 < fenn> people who want laser cutters just dont have experience with real machine tools
00:47 < gene> I wonder, could you get advertizers to sponser a fablab?
00:47 < kanzure> what?
00:47 < fenn> yes, but you'd have to do stuff to get their logo in the spotlight or whatever
00:47 < gene> seems impractical
00:48 < fenn> so that's not something to do from the start
00:48 < davidnunez> fenn: Well, ya know.  You haven't seen my work.  If you can pull off the intricate cuts I need on paper and plastic with normal machine tools at the high rate of production I require, then I bow to your skills.
00:48 < kanzure> anyway, what I'm worried about happening is fenn moving down here and then James Choate applies voodoo magic and everything goes to hell
00:48 < kanzure> I think les is more serious about that than to let that happen though
00:48 < fenn> davidnunez: link?
00:48 < gene> perhaps selling lasercut goods?
00:48 < kanzure> but it would be nice to have a bit more of a guarantee
00:48 < kanzure> gene: kits have already been discussed.
00:48 < gene> lasercutter is free materials are not
00:49 < fenn> hm. is ponoko's facility in CA running?
00:49 < gene> I am not quite sure
00:49 < kanzure> I'll ask davidtenhave next time I catch him online
00:49 < fenn> local ponoko service would be the bomb
00:49 < kanzure> david would support that.
00:49 < kanzure> (david-from-ponoko)
00:49 < gene> hmmm...
00:49 < kanzure> well, maybe
00:49 < fenn> shipping from NZ.. puh leez
00:50 < kanzure> he's already into hardware packaging, but since he's into the business, local ponoko might kill his model, dunno
00:50 < gene> a local ponoko seems fit for austin
00:50 < fenn> well, we can start a competitor then
00:50 < gene> all those boutique(or whatever the hell they are called) shops could start selling lazer cut necklaces and shit
00:50 < kanzure> right, we've been over this stuff a hundred times already
00:51 < fenn> i'd rather franchise than have to build market share
00:51 < fenn> but that's just me
00:51 < gene> fenn around here in austin, they have these shops
00:52 < kanzure> fenn: resist gene. don't be drawn in.
00:52 < fenn> artsy fartsy shops?
00:52 < gene> yup you guessed it
00:52 < fenn> yeah i get the idea
00:52 < gene> but alas
00:52 < fenn> our horde of minions
00:52 < fenn> the first time is free, kid
00:53 < gene> having to lasercut necklaces might mean not being able to use the lasercutter
00:53 < kanzure> the whole point is that we'd know how to build a second lasercutter
00:53 < kanzure> yawn.
00:53 < kanzure> problem solved.
00:53 < fenn> i dont think it's feasible to build a lasercutter for less than you can buy one
00:53 < kanzure> I haven't looked into it yet
00:54 < kanzure> what are we talking about?
00:54 < gene> yeah zinc selenide mirrors aren't cheap
00:54 < fenn> $2500 for a 45W system ready to go
00:54 < fenn> now, that's tiny
00:54 < gene> fab lab funding I presume
00:54 < fenn> no just a quick google search
00:55 < kanzure> fablab funding is taken care of, les and I have enough of a clue to make that happen
00:55 < davidnunez> fenn: link to that one please
00:55 < kanzure> don't worry about that.
00:55 < fenn> http://www.hflaser.com/Mini-Laser-Engraver.html
00:55 < kanzure> but the issue is that what if 
00:55 < kanzure> (1) somebody without the fablab core vision comes along and offers a large enough sum of money to sufficiently distract operations?
00:55 < kanzure> and (2) the original vision isn't being followed through on?
00:55 < kanzure> if fenn was to come down here and for #2 to happen, he'd be a very unhappy individual I presume
00:56 < gene> maybe we should write a constitution
00:56 < kanzure> how would that help
00:56 < fenn> google for "45W laser" and it'll be in the ads on the right
00:56 < fenn> it depends what #1 is
00:56 < gene> I guess it might not
00:57 < kanzure> #1 would be marc fawzi.
00:57 < kanzure> heh
00:57 < fenn> i'm not terribly excited about james choate's "founders will have ultimate authority for all eternity and no responsibilities"
00:57 < gene> if we accrete a large enough community that shares the vision, that community will resist change of the vision
00:57 < fenn> if fawzi came down and did something real i'd be pleasantly surprised
00:58 < gene> fawzi might be a problem
00:59 < kanzure> davidnunez: do you know les well?
00:59 < davidnunez> he and I spent some time together when he tried to start the fab lab BEFORE techshop discussions
00:59 < kanzure> from my own encounters with him, he's exactly in tune with us
00:59 < fenn> in bloomington we have this "co-op grocery" which is the only progressive thing happening in town. unfortunately they actually aren't progressive at all, they just sell health food at exorbitant prices and pay their employees minimum wage
00:59 < kanzure> so would it be reasonable to plan that he's going to keep with these ideas?
01:00 < davidnunez> he's careful, measured, business-oriented, but has little tolerance for people not getting things done.
01:00 < fenn> but it's a fun environment and they have slick marketing so people love to work there and the yuppies lap it up
01:00 < gene> yikes fenn
01:00 < kanzure> davidnunez: would he be one to go back on his word if, say, I happened to be the answer to his prayers? heh'
01:00 < kanzure> or something like that
01:00 < kanzure> this is hard to formulate into words.
01:00  * fenn forgot where he was going with that
01:01 < fenn> kanzure for president!
01:01 < kanzure> hm?
01:01 < davidnunez> I think Les operates with more integrity than I see in most people.
01:01 < kanzure> interesting
01:03 < davidnunez> Incidentally, for the record.  I could care less how you put together your fab lab.. how it's funded... where the tools come from, whether or not a laser cutter is useful to you.  I'm more interested in engaging after you're up and running.  My interest right now is about the "So What?" ... and how communities can solve their own problems through resources like fab labs.
01:03 < kanzure> davidnunez: so, fenn might move down here into austin just to work on this project "full-time". can you see the situation that this might create?
01:03 < gene> the reason I want to have a fablab is to just build stuff
01:04 < kanzure> gene seems to be off in his own little dimension here
01:04 < kanzure> but yes, building stuff is of course good.
01:04 < kanzure> (but "build what?" in particular- see openmanufacturing, etc. etc.)
01:04 < fenn> "So What?"?
01:04 < gene> I don't really see fablabs being able to solve problems
01:04 < fenn> the "whats it good for?" problem?
01:05 < fenn> i dont really see gene being able to solve problems :P
01:05 < kanzure> hah, if you need to ask "whats it good for" you're not thinking straight
01:05 < fenn> kanzure: i struggled to explain this to my family on multiple occasions
01:05 < gene> problems like?
01:05 < fenn> they just dont understand why someone would make something themself
01:05 < kanzure> gasp! evil! devilmagic!
01:05 < kanzure> burn the gentoo users
01:05 < fenn> because they dont DO anything
01:06 < gene> burn the freemason!
01:06 < gene> http://www.make-digital.com/make/vol09/?folio=75
01:06 < fenn> so everything is available at the corner grocery, or at lowes home improvement or whatever
01:06 < kanzure> "everything"
01:06 < davidnunez> gene: I think that mindset is fundamentally short-sighted.  But I respect it.  I have a lot of work to do before I can convince people otherwise
01:06 < kanzure> until it's not.
01:06 < fenn> yes everything they need
01:06 < kanzure> defined by who?
01:06 < kanzure> etc.
01:06 < fenn> by their narrow vision of what's desirable
01:06 < gene> I would like an example of a problem that a fablab could solve
01:07 < kanzure> self-replication
01:07 < kanzure> civilization-in-a-box
01:07 < kanzure> diybio
01:07 < fenn> swarms of dumpster-mapping UAV's
01:07 < gene> ok that seems pretty cool and definately worth it
01:07 < fenn> wifi blimp networks
01:08 < davidnunez> Have you read Neil Gershenfeld's book??!  Dozens of examples.  Most not in the US (i.e. problems that are not more easily solved by driving to home depot and buying replacement parts)
01:08 < kanzure> No, but I've kind of read it "by osmosis"
01:08 < gene> No I haven't read his book
01:08 < fenn> heh
01:08 < fenn> well, i read it
01:08 < fenn> but i sing tenor
01:08 < fenn> er, yeah.
01:09 < fenn> an epilog laser is $16-20k
01:10 < fenn> waterjet is about $100k
01:10 < fenn> EDM can be scrounged for $2k but is very slow
01:10 < davidnunez> so gene, my latest kick is that there are lots of people who are learning how to build things and are actually stopping their learning because they do not have interesting problems to solve.   Or they are just building boring things.  That's not you, that's not me.. but there are tons of people reading Make and following paint-by-number recipes and assuming they are "innovating."
01:11 < kanzure> :)
01:11 < gene> building boring things is apparently what my senior project is limited too:(
01:11 < davidnunez> I think our imaginations are, paradoxically, being limited by the democratization of technology and open manufacturing.
01:12 < kanzure> what?
01:12 < fenn> i think our imaginations are being limited by O'Reilly publishing corporation
01:12 < davidnunez> (fenn: bingo)
01:12 < kanzure> no fair, I called it first!
01:12 < kanzure> :p
01:12 < fenn> o
01:12 < gene> I call human nature
01:12 < fenn> o'reilly != open manufacturing
01:13 < fenn> it's kitbashing, crafts, and trash-art
01:13 < kanzure> http://openmanufacturing.net
01:13 < davidnunez> Right.  And for most people that's all it will ever be.
01:13 < gene> In the second life, people always tend to buy things instead of being creative and making their own
01:13 < fenn> if it happens to involve some spinoff businesses like the "make controller" or arduino, that's cool
01:13 < fenn> but the make controller isnt the central focus of make zine
01:13 < davidnunez> HOWEVER.  They are the gateway drug.  
01:14 < gene> hmm... how useful would an automatic SMD pick and place robot be for a fablab?
01:14 < fenn> not very useful
01:14 < kanzure> we'll take it though.
01:14 < davidnunez> and I argue, again, that the openmanufacturing movement, from every paper, website, company I've seen has a too deep focus on the building of the tools themselves and not enough on what you do with them when you have them
01:14 < gene> not for making mas amounts of wifi blimp control systems?
01:15 < kanzure> davidnunez: bullshit
01:15 < kanzure> I haven't seen much focus on tools and what tools you need to make what tools
01:15 < fenn> gene: by the time i've loaded up all the parts into the machine and programmed it, i could have populated all the boards
01:16 < fenn> davidnunez: you must be joking.. how many websites even talk about building tools?
01:16 < davidnunez> kanzure: we must be looking at entirely different things
01:16 < gene> reprap I guess?
01:16 < fenn> ok, that's one
01:16 < davidnunez> tools and processes 
01:16 < gene> cnc zone
01:16 < kanzure> nobody knows about tools and processes
01:16 < fenn> two
01:16 < fenn> (especially on cnczone)
01:16 < kanzure> and if they do, it's not documented at all
01:16 < davidnunez> jeez, look at the openmanufacturing list for the past month
01:17 < davidnunez> (I'm scanning now... trying to find examples of application)
01:17 < kanzure> hm?
01:17 < kanzure> what do you think the openmanufacturing list is anyway?
01:17 < davidnunez> the google group
01:17 < kanzure> no, I mean,
01:18 < kanzure> openmanufacturing is hardly representative of O'Reilly's media empire
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01:18 < kanzure> the core ideas related to bootstrapping, upcreation, fablabs etc. don't really have a home anywhere else
01:18 < fenn> davidnunez: is an elphel camera a tool or an end product?
01:19 < fenn> me, i dont really want much beside tools, why bother buying art when i can make them whenever i want
01:19 < fenn> art shouldn't be sold anyway
01:19 < kanzure> prostitutes?
01:19 < fenn> so, besides art and tools, what is there to make?
01:19 < davidnunez> fenn: Yeah. I'm reading that post... I don't know.  I'm not articulating this well.  elphel is not getting at the problem solving I'm talking about
01:20 < fenn> no, elphel is an experiment in open firmware, more or less
01:20 < kanzure> davidnunez: have you seen unptnt.com ?
01:20 < fenn> unptnt is weaksauce
01:20 < kanzure> true, but rauchwerk isn't.
01:20 < fenn> he should be contributing to SKDB instead :P
01:21 < fenn> davidnunez: what do you do when you have every tool imaginable?
01:21  * fenn hands davidnunez a magic nano AI blendermobile
01:22 < davidnunez> fenn: I get my 10 neighbors to write one problem on a piece of paper that is just out of their reach but if solved would make all of our lives better
01:22 < gene> fenn you start building robots, lot's of robots
01:22 < kanzure> ugh
01:23 < fenn> gene: how many robots? a galactic cluster's worth? now we're getting into philosophy so i'll have to take a time out
01:23 < davidnunez> fenn: ... then I pick a weekend and have us all use the tools to create speculative objects (in 48 hrs) that descibe a world where those problems are solved
01:23 < kanzure> yawn
01:23 < davidnunez> then I spend the next few days/weeks building all the steps in between
01:23 < davidnunez> repeat.
01:23 < fenn> i wish google would show more than 10 threads per page
01:24 < gene> a lot of them
01:24 < kanzure> are you some sort of quasi-utilitarian?
01:24 < kanzure> I'm not too interested in what people say they want
01:24 < fenn> davidnunez: speculative objects that solve problems.. are those not tools?
01:24 < kanzure> but rather the point behind openmanufacturing and a lot of the work there is the ability to just let people do bug reports on human technological civilization
01:24 < kanzure> so, if there are a lot of people unhappy, they should update the architecture for the way they live
01:24 < davidnunez> fenn: Sure! I can agree with that.
01:24 < kanzure> but usually this can't happen
01:24 < kanzure> so that's where we get into all sorts of fun O'Neill stuff
01:24 < kanzure> but somehow I don't think that's going to fly with you
01:25 < fenn> davidnunez: so i dont understand the problem with "too much focus on tools"
01:25 < davidnunez> fenn: although they don't necessarily have to work.. they just speculate on what it would look like if they existed
01:25 < fenn> so you're disappointed that openmanufacturing isnt a scifi book club?
01:25 < davidnunez> Heh.  I'm disappointed that people aren't solving real problems.
01:25 < fenn> me too
01:26 < kanzure> what do you think we're solving though?
01:26 < gene> but we don't have the tools!
01:26 < kanzure> I mean, on the openmanufacturing list
01:26 < davidnunez> Solving our need for technology masturbation?
01:26 < kanzure> how so?
01:26 < kanzure> O'Reilly != openmanufacturing
01:26 < fenn> OM has been rather polluted lately and hard to see what it's about
01:26 < kanzure> that's true.
01:26 < fenn> see thread titled "tired of marc fawzi's crap"
01:27 < fenn> now, technology masturbation
01:27 < gene> hmmm... would not having a totally replicating reprap be a problem?
01:27 < fenn> this is basically lusting after technology that is inapproriate for solving a particular set of problems
01:28 < fenn> i think it's a symptom of existing in a consumerist society
01:28 < fenn> blaming a small group of people on a mailing list won't make it go away
01:28 < davidnunez> This is good.  I'm getting riled up and am finding new ways to try to describe what I'm feeling.
01:29 < davidnunez> so. I'm not indicting a mailing list.  Not my intent. sorry for that.
01:29 < fenn> i'm free to lust after matter compilers because it solves a broad range of problems
01:29 < gene> that's what peer review's for
01:29 < gene> if you can call it that
01:29 < davidnunez> gene: heh.
01:29 < fenn> gene: peer review for a mailing list?
01:30 < gene> no for this conversation
01:30 < fenn> i'm not following i guess
01:31 < fenn> davidnunez: i've had so many ideas of cool projects that i dont know where to write them all
01:31 < gene> ah yes fenn, the classic polyprojectis
01:31 < fenn> eventually you just learn to live with it, you'll come up with the idea again in a couple years anyway
01:32 < fenn> typically "projects" are somewhere between art and tools
01:32 < fenn> i ALWAYS write down ideas for tools
01:32 < fenn> because they are the most distilled, pure, unadulterated core concept behind systems
01:33 < davidnunez> So maybe I'm not interested in open manufacturing.   If you all can focus on building tools and processes that let me organize people to solve problems then it's MY purpose to get people to both participate as users and apply tools.  My frustration is that people who involve themselves in these discussions get lustful after things like reprap and just dive down what, I believe, will be a rabbit hole... for m
01:33 < kanzure3_> "will be a rabbit hole... for m"
01:33 < fenn> "... for m"
01:33 < kanzure3_> well maybe it's because reprap sucks.
01:33 < kanzure3_> also, nobody said an ad hoc design process was a good one
01:33 < gene> kanzure,  core group's pondering fluidic control
01:34 < kanzure3_> what?
01:34 < davidnunez> for most people.  Makezine facilitates that.
01:34 < fenn> davidnunez: are you concerned about how reprap isnt really good for building anything?
01:34 < fenn> i mean, low rez plastic with no overhangs..
01:34 < gene> not anymore fenn
01:34 < fenn> sorry, no overhangs greater than 45 degrees
01:34 < gene> reprap now has support material
01:35 < fenn> uh, and some other poorly defined/examined constraints
01:35 < gene> er... scaffolding
01:35 < gene> http://blog.reprap.org/
01:35 < davidnunez> fenn: reprap's just an example...there's a whole other discussion in my head about how the tools that we DO have can solve most problems that real people are dealing with NOW and not in some self-replicating future. 
01:36 < fenn> davidnunez: you arent going to go on a big "land and capital" rant are you?
01:36 < davidnunez> fenn: so I ask people to speculate in the near-term (1 yr... 1 month..etc).  not quite sci-fi, but just out of armslength
01:36 < fenn> there is more than enough "stuff" to go around
01:37 < fenn> the problem is that attempts to take "stuff" away from the haves and give it to the have-nots tend to end poorly
01:37 < davidnunez> fenn: I think you don't know my politics.  but thanks, anyway.  
01:37 < fenn> ok, so what are some problems that "real people" are dealing with
01:38 < davidnunez> I don't know.  Get 10 of your neighbors to write down what their problems are.  What bothered you today?  
01:38 < fenn> all the digital bathroom and kitchen scales are too expensive, and i dont have any money
01:38 < fenn> it's just a load cell ffs
01:38 < davidnunez> Me?  There's a leaky door in my apartment that let's lots of cool air in.
01:38 < kanzure3_> davidnunez: that's taking the wrong way out of the problem. I think you could figure out what sucks just by thinking about it.
01:39 < kanzure3_> those problems all have a common backdrop
01:39 < kanzure3_> sigh
01:39  * kanzure3_ sleeps
01:39 < gene> sleep is for slackers, staying up late is for hackers
01:39 < davidnunez> So now.  I would get you and 5 other smart people together and we would build, in 48 hours, objects that represented solutions.
01:39 < fenn> like a load cell
01:39 < davidnunez> great!  I don't know much about load cells.
01:39 < fenn> they're just wires
01:40 < davidnunez> So I and the 5 others in the room would get the shared benefit of your solution.
01:40 < fenn> i could build one in an hour with a fablab
01:40 < gene> load cell = easy
01:40 < gene> calibrated load cell = hard
01:40 < fenn> gene: party pooper
01:40 < fenn> gene: you only have to write the code once
01:40 < gene> though
01:41 < gene> why use a load cell?
01:41 < gene> when you can make a mechanical scale?
01:41 < fenn> so i don't go on a gene-esque wild goose chase through the technology landscape
01:41 < davidnunez> Great.  if you asked 1000 people randomly picked out of a crowd what a load cell was and how they could use it to solve a problem, most would not know 
01:42 < fenn> davidnunez: most people have no fucking clue how anything works
01:42 < fenn> that's a problem, in my book
01:42 < gene> well there is this one liquid that when under pressure changes resistance
01:42 < davidnunez> right.  that's why speculative objects are a good approach.  You don't HAVE to know how it works. you just build a representation of the end result and then build all the intermediate steps... as you learn how it works.
01:42 < fenn> hence the fablab, technology literacy, publishing "how to" articles
01:43 < gene> fairly sensitive I believe
01:43 < fenn> no way
01:43 < davidnunez> the subtlety is having a goal that's outside of the tools and processes themselves.
01:43 < gene> perhaps we could put out navy style pamphlets on technology
01:43 < fenn> i'll just say "it flies, because, you know, magic smoke" and then i design some totally unrealistic floating island thing
01:43 < gene> http://www.hnsa.org/doc/op1140/index.htm
01:43 < davidnunez> so you missed my earlier message where I said, "Just barely out of arms length"
01:43 < fenn> if you dont know how things work you dont know how things ought to look
01:44 < gene> here's a layman's guide to analog computers
01:44 < davidnunez> ...or another way to look at it is that you have a constrained view of the world if you are constantly thinking about the innards 
01:44 < fenn> yes, can't see the forest for the trees
01:45 < fenn> but really the only people that think like that are stuck in an engineering job making better widgets in a series of widgets
01:46 < fenn> or they have no broad education and must go on raw experience with what they've seen
01:46 < fenn> like hot-rodders
01:46 < davidnunez> My impression of the openmanufacturing mailing list is that they are people thinking that way... 
01:46 < davidnunez> so that's an image problem, then, if it's not true.
01:46 < fenn> "everyone knows a hemi is the best way to get more horsepower"
01:47 < fenn> openmanufacturing list is sort of an oasis where people have come to water their camels
01:47 < fenn> that was a weird analogy
01:47 < kanzure> hump hump hump
01:48 < fenn> ain't no sich animal
01:48 < gene> too much 4chan eh, Kanzure?
01:49 < kanzure> it's the sound of humps forming on my back
01:49 < kanzure> since fenn said it's a place where people go to water their camels
01:49 < davidnunez> So I'm most definitely a generalist and live at the application level (I design analog circuits as I need them, but I'd rather use an AVR) So when I think of open manufacturing, I see a group of people going nuts over projects which are difficult for me to understand their application
01:49 < fenn> davidnunez: so, some things that come out of "fablab" solve problems, but a lot of them are just people playing around and/or making art
01:50 < gene> so I hear you like modular robots kanzure?
01:50 < davidnunez> fenn: perfect.  I don't see them as mutually exclusive
01:50 < gene> that's what fablabs would rock at, making modular robots
01:51 < fenn> some people dont think tools are art, but it really just takes a certain mindset
01:51 < davidnunez> I can respect that.  
01:51 < fenn> medieval craftsmen didn't think of cathedrals as art
01:51 < fenn> it's just "what you did"
01:51 < fenn> anyway, that line of thought goes nowhere
01:51 < davidnunez> so if you were to point me to a project in the open manufacturing world that is most "artful" in your opinion...
01:52 < kanzure> the shit machine?
01:52 < davidnunez> cloaca?  
01:52 < kanzure> does that count?
01:52 < davidnunez> Okay this is interesting.  I learned of that project 
01:52 < gene> ugh...
01:52 < davidnunez> by watching "Egg the Art Show" on PBS a few years back..   
01:52 < kanzure> it was recently mentioned on diybio.
01:53 < davidnunez> Maybe you can help me (seriously... a favor, please)
01:53 < gene> ok I got a problem
01:53 < davidnunez> in a nutshell, what makes that an open manufacturing project?
01:53 < gene> I need a backlight for my calculator
01:53 < kanzure> davidnunez: I don't think it does.
01:53 < kanzure> davidnunez: I thought you meant "posted to the mailing list"
01:53 < fenn> it's not an open manufacturing project
01:53 < fenn> open = preferred embodiment for modifications are available, and permission to use and modify them
01:54 < fenn> i'm probably missing some points, see the DFSG
01:54 < fenn> basically "show me the code"
01:55 < fenn> lets see.. both artful and open..
01:55 < davidnunez> so where is the line, in your mind, between Open Manufacturing and Open Hardware?  (I've got my own definition, but I think yours will be more informed)
01:55 < fenn> uh. none?
01:55 < fenn> no difference
01:55 < kanzure> davidnunez: are you familiar with autotools for F/OSS?
01:56 < fenn> hardware is often taken to mean electronics for some reason
01:56 < davidnunez> Okay.  So now I've got all sorts of artful open manufacturing projects that opens up
01:57 < davidnunez> lilypad immediately comes to mind
01:57 < fenn> yes
01:57 < kanzure> http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Design
01:57 < fenn> "design" is what they're calling it these days? :)
01:58 < kanzure> http://p2pfoundation.net/Product_Hacking for a list of OSH stuffs. but this is hardly organized like SKDB would have it.
01:58 < kanzure> s/organized/functional/
01:58 < kanzure> hrm, functionalized
01:58 < davidnunez> I've been working with the definition that open manufacturing refers to the open (and sometimes free/beer) of the process and tools of development and producing objects 
01:59 < davidnunez> whereas open hardware means your beautiful schematics / designs / blueprints are open and modifiable 
01:59 < kanzure> tools making tools
01:59 < kanzure> autotools ..
01:59 < fenn> davidnunez: i dont have a comprehensive directory of open hardware projects to pull inspiration from
01:59 < fenn> (incidentally this was what my first post to the OM list was about)
02:00 < davidnunez> riff on instructables (I would see that as a possible repository of SOME open projects?  it speaks to both process and object)
02:01 < kanzure> instructables should be based off of packaged open source hardware projects with computer-readable instructions that can be translated into human readable instructions.
02:01 < kanzure> but that's another rant.
02:02 < davidnunez> kanzure: so tools making tools doesn't solve real problems in my world view, honestly.  Maybe when you and fenn make it cheaper and more accessible to me and my 10 neighbors than just walking down to home depot. but tomorrow?  not yet.  hence my frustration / impatience.
02:02 < gene> hey it's harder writing an instructable than you would think
02:02 < fenn> davidnunez: the instructable about how to make a clear rubik's cube with magnets and acrylic cubes
02:02 < davidnunez> great example! 
02:03 < fenn> http://www.instructables.com/id/Magnetic-Acrylic-Rubik_s-Cube/
02:03 < kanzure> yes, tomorrow. that's what the kits are about. 
02:04 < kanzure> small stuff at first of course, that's why we do the bootstrapping and upcreation
02:04 < kanzure> is that so hard to understand? :-/
02:04 < davidnunez> Uhm. yes it is.  that's your fundamental problem. 
02:04 < gene> kits
02:04 < kanzure> hm?
02:04 < fenn> i forget why i'm looking for artful open hardware
02:04 < gene> what could we make as kit
02:04 < kanzure> gene: les and I are already working on that, don't worry
02:04 < kanzure> that's a minor detail.
02:05 < gene> Hey I wouldn't mind helping
02:05 < kanzure> well I mean right now
02:05 < kanzure> for this discussion.
02:05 < kanzure> heh'
02:05 < gene> how about laser cut modular robots
02:05 < gene> that use servos for actuation
02:06 < davidnunez> fenn: you were helping me understand your definition of open manufacturing
02:06 < fenn> i dont think it's a definition as much as a culture
02:06 < davidnunez> It's still blurry and is obviously a source of semantic confusion. 
02:06 < fenn> like, technically a lot of programs are "open source" by the OSI definition, but they were just plonked down by some company
02:07 < davidnunez> well yeah, but Open processes and culture have been around for decades and, if you stretch the definition, for centuries... what is it about open manufacturing that's different
02:07 < fenn> it's about industrial things
02:07 < fenn> not crafts
02:08 < fenn> generally pursued as a means to an end
02:08 < davidnunez> this is what's confusing then (since you pointed out the rubiks cube)... 
02:08 < kanzure> you were asking for art
02:09 < davidnunez> I was asking for art because fenn used that in his definition of open manufacturing, is all
02:09 < davidnunez> artful, actually
02:09 < fenn> well, it's not exactly art in my mind because it's sort of an "ideal"
02:10 < davidnunez> I guess I live in the craft world.. although I do make small runs (100 units or less) of boards and robots and things I design.  I see things like oomlaut which are talked about on the open manufacturing list.  Industrial?  hrm.  
02:10 < fenn> (it = the rubik's cube)
02:10 < kanzure> oomlout, yep, but they've been unfriendly to us for some reason. I tried approaching them and they weren't all that friendly. oh well. their loss.
02:10 < davidnunez> but is it industrial or crafty or ??
02:11 < davidnunez> So stepping back: 
02:11 < fenn> like, once dewey garritt came up with that idea, that was it, it's over, the clear magnetic rubik's cube has been discovered
02:12 < fenn> kanzure: they probably just misunderstood what you were saying
02:12 < kanzure> I hope so.
02:12 < kanzure> or they might just be business sharks in disguise.
02:12 < davidnunez> if you guys got together in Austin and started talking about a fablab or hackerspace or whatever... those _words_ have some meaning now because of Make et al.  I think I would be surprised to join up and discover a lot of what we've been talking about (tools making tools, etc)
02:12 < fenn> well, as long as they dont sue anyone i dont care what they "are"
02:13 < kanzure> fablab has been careful to keep itself separated from Make
02:13 < fenn> davidnunez: it's hard to talk about things when we dont have words for them
02:13  * kanzure wonders why david doesn't sound like les
02:14 < davidnunez> kanzure: explain that, please
02:14 < fenn> "upcreation" is one word i recently learned
02:14 < fenn> i've been using "bootstrapping" for years now
02:14 < kanzure> davidnunez: les actually mentioned that you were one of the previous guys that were pretty close on the idea spectrum
02:14 < kanzure> but now I'm just confused
02:14 < fenn> kanzure: compared to Robot Group he's pretty close
02:15 < kanzure> true that :)
02:16 < fenn> btw I've been into this since before Make hit the scene
02:16 < fenn> i guess those people used to hang out at SRL or something
02:16 < davidnunez> Well.  Again.  You don't know me.  I know what you mean by "compared to Robot Group" and I think you're way off. 
02:17 < kanzure> so you *are* like the robotgroup?
02:17 < fenn> i dont know much about Robot Group either, so dont read too much into it
02:17 < kanzure> if you're more like the robotgroup then alarms should be going off, imho
02:17 < kanzure> as you said- they're in a retirement home now- which is way too much of an analogy
02:17 < kanzure> so what's so bad about not being compared to them? wtf
02:18 < davidnunez> Oh.  Wait.  Maybe I misread.  
02:18 < fenn> i used to spend a lot of time on the gingery_machines mailing list, but it never seemed to go anywhere because the book series was the only common attractor
02:18 < fenn> and we thought we werent allowed to copy the designs or something, so nobody made any improved instructions
02:18 < davidnunez> yeah.  sorry.  I saw this "kanzure: compared to Robot Group he's pretty close" and thought I was being compared to retirement homes
02:19 < davidnunez> so re: me and les and idea spectrum.  
02:20  * fenn mutters about singular value decomposition
02:20 < davidnunez> I'm a member of a a couple different hackerspaces (one in a city I'm not even in, but I like them, so I happily pay "dues")
02:20 < fenn> what do you do to earn money?
02:21 < davidnunez> Me?  I pick really interesting public arts bids or work my relationships with people I've impressed in the past to do fun art/tech/design projects.  
02:21 < fenn> please elaborate on what a "public arts bid" is
02:21 < davidnunez> Example: I'm building a robotic lobster that kids can program via a block-language for the children's museum of austin
02:21 < ybit> what's w/ the pointrel social semantic desktop? is it not a recreation of nepomuk?
02:21 < kanzure> it's paul's way of being marc fawzi
02:21 < fenn> ybit: pointrel is RDF, he just missed the memo
02:21 < kanzure> except he's a litlte more informed
02:22 < fenn> davidnunez: where does the money for this lobster come from? and who had to write grants to get it?
02:22 < davidnunez> ... public art project:  Working with a building contractor to design 10000 LED sphere to go on top of a firehouse  
02:23 < kanzure> ..
02:23 < gene> ....
02:24  * fenn shrugs. sounds cool to me
02:24 < davidnunez> fenn: I subcontract.  It's a paid-for gig. I have an hourly rate, I bid on projects, I get them if I do my homework.
02:24 < gene> such a shame that much public art ends up at firehouses
02:24 < gene> not where people can see it
02:24 < davidnunez> heh.  people will see this one.  
02:25 < davidnunez> but yeah like any other freelancing: 20% of my time is development 80% is business and proposals and schmoozing 
02:25 < davidnunez> (which is why I don't think fablabs & hackerspaces should be trying to start consulting businesses)
02:26 < fenn> that's why i wanted an agent.
02:27 < ybit> http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/CAD
02:27 < davidnunez> kanzure: so when Les and I talked, it was all about building up a community workshop where members bought access to tools, classes were held in the meeting space, etc.  My disconnect with you is really more about an evolution in my thinking that's taken me away from the logistics of building a space and more towards what you do with it.
02:27 < fenn> ah i thought of an artful open hardware project, and there's a crapload of it
02:28 < fenn> http://www.n55.dk/
02:28 < davidnunez> Very Nice.
02:29 < fenn> in particular http://www.n55.dk/MANUALS/SPACEFRAME/spaceframe.html
02:29 < fenn> i wish they would expand more on http://www.n55.dk/MANUALS/FACTORY/FACTORY.html
02:30 < davidnunez> I was about to say the same thing... there aren't plans to follow to build these
02:30 < fenn> no there aren't plans, but all the info is there
02:30 < davidnunez> but I guess they do list parts
02:31 < fenn> it needs more rigorous specification
02:31 < davidnunez> and show photos... so the open process might imply somebody who is great at blueprint making could inject their own drawings
02:31 < davidnunez> and add more specs
02:32 < fenn> they outsourced all the plastic octahedrons, but apparently it's really hard to get small quantities of that sort of thing in the US
02:33 < davidnunez> (bells going off in my head) So would you say this is an example of something (the octahedrons) that could be fabricated in a fablab-like space?
02:33 < fenn> hmmm.. i dont know
02:34 < fenn> certainly more difficult than bending sheet metal into angle
02:34 < fenn> blow molding can't be that hard can it?
02:36 < fenn> i was surprised fablab didnt have a vacuum forming machine
02:36 < davidnunez> re: moving to austin - I think you should.  I think it's a risk, but I suspect that you guys can pull it off.  The truth is that Austin is begging for something like an open manufacturing space and really needs people that are thinking about this full-time to pull it off.  You strike me as somebody who both cares about it
02:36 < fenn> or any material deformation processes actually
02:37 < davidnunez> and knows enough to make it work
02:37 < fenn> thanks for your vote of confidence :)
02:37 < davidnunez> personally the problem of building a fablab, I've decided is not interesting to ME.  So better you than I.  
02:38 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/inventory-comparison.html shows the strengths and weaknesses of various approaches to accessible manufacturing
02:39 < davidnunez> <mouth dropping open>  See?  this is what I mean. :D
02:45 < fenn> http://www.positron.org/projects/acrylic_cases/
02:45 < fenn> and http://www.positron.org/projects/A51/
02:45 < fenn> that's the kind of art I like at least
02:49 < fenn> you can download the code for the CPLD and gumstix; only problem is E-ink won't sell to individuals and it's basically impossible to get a similar display technology from anywhere else
02:54 < davidnunez> Yeah. This stuff I can appreciate. And I suppose if Open Manufacturing was all about making these materials and tools and processes available to more people for WHATEVER purpose (art, hobby, problem-solving) then that's very cool.  
02:55 < davidnunez> My focus is on problem-solving... and I'll encourage my 10 neighbors to use whatever tools are available right now.  and in 5 years when e-ink is available on digi-key, then I'll add that to the problem-solving toolbox
02:56 < davidnunez> I'm a consumer for the stuff you're making, is what it's come down to.  and my responsibility, like in all open projects, is to provide feedback from field tests in "the real world"
02:57 < fenn> god i hope it's not another 5 years
02:57 < davidnunez> I'm not frustrated because I think everyone should be doing this... just that nobody, at all, seems to be. 
02:58 < fenn> <- still waiting for an unencumbered FPGA
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07:57 < kanzure> hm, les has been doing some damage control
07:57 < kanzure> neat.
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09:01 < kanzure> fenn: I fwd'd "simplistic models of capability growth" from sl4.org. I'm not sure it's interesting enough to warrant consideration, since the variables are too weird/ambiguous/simple/useless.
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15:16 < fenn> ah finally got my opengl rotations to work
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15:33 < kanzure--> wtf, just got a phone call from Algae Biofuel World Summit 2009 because I downloaded their brochure the other day
15:34 < kanzure--> so they were calling to ask if I had any questions
15:34 < kanzure--> how weird.
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15:42 < bkero> You downloaded their brochure and put in real information?
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15:48 < kanzure--> well that was my first mistake, you see
15:48 < kanzure--> the second was answering the phone
15:48 < fenn> did you ask "why are you calling me?"
15:49 < kanzure--> they asked "do you have any questions about the event?"
15:50  * kanzure-- leaves the lab
15:50  * kanzure-- wonders which lab he is presently in
16:07 < fenn> i bet campbell would dig this: http://arxiv.org/abs/0902.0878
16:08 < fenn> giant directed graph of corporate ownership
16:10 < davidnunez> related visualization : http://www.theyrule.net/
16:10 < davidnunez> (oldie but goodie)
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17:52 < kanzure3_> fenn: looks like Eric Hunting is at it again
17:55 < kanzure3_> I think his email though demonstrates a lack of underlying architecture
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18:35 < kanzure3_> davidnunez: be sure to see the latest posts to the openmanufacturing list :) particularly Eric's and my subsequent response.
18:46 < kanzure> whois John Carlson and Jayson Tymko?
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18:59  * kanzure just got the Pink Army Coop "what we are" doc.
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21:36 < ybit> http://www.blendernation.com/2009/02/05/seastead-design-contest/
21:36 < ybit> direct link: http://seasteading.org/interact/design-contest
21:36 < ybit> "The Seasteading Institute (TSI) is looking for creative and talented designers to construct a seastead using 3-D modeling software."
21:45 < kanzure> aka please do our work for us
21:46 < kanzure3_> wonder why that's on blender.
21:48 < ybit> the animation community is all about contests and practicing their art, so this is another outlet for it
21:49 < kanzure3_> but this is for engineering
21:49 < fenn> i wonder if they intended this consequence "So basically even if you don't win, they still can use your design for commercial use, without paying you a dime!"
21:54 < kanzure> fenn: there's a good email from eric waiting in your inbox
21:54 < fenn> heh ok i'll go read it then
21:57 < fenn> i wonder if he's been talking to david
21:57 < fenn> (davidnunez that is)
21:57 < kanzure3_> eric? I doubt it
22:00 < fenn> yeah it's just funny how similar it is to what we've been talking about the last couple days
22:01 < kanzure3_> not as funny/weird as me running into les, what with the inhabiting the same idea space and such.
22:01 < kanzure3_> I find it more likely that eric would post something similar than it is that I would ever into someone like les :p
22:06 < fenn> i wonder if eric could help actually getting books made, since he's in the textbook business after all..
22:06 < kanzure> i bet. :)
22:08 < kanzure> see also my response to eric
22:10 < kanzure> maybe eric will move down to austin too?
22:12 < fenn> not likely
22:12 < kanzure3_> "health issues"
22:13 < fenn> he can't be around car exhaust, people smoking cigarettes, paint, etc etc
22:14 < fenn> i'm sure he'd like his own fab though
22:14 < kanzure3_> he's emailed me about his looking into a New Mexico fablab
22:14 < kanzure3_> so yes.
22:16 < fenn> i wonder if "Maker" is trademarked
22:16 < kanzure3_> I've only seen Eric using it, and then you using it because he used it (same with me I guess)
22:20 < fenn> really? i've heard it other places.. seth frey said it a couple times
22:20 < fenn> Maker Workshop, Maker Faire, etc
22:22 < kanzure3_> nevermind
22:23 < fenn> instead of "maker culture" you could call it "tool cult" :P 
22:30 < fenn> "What is the smallest library that could contain the essential bootstrapping notions and knowledge of civilization? The smallest must in fact only contain information, since via the correct information, any tool needed could be built."  WRONG
22:30 < kanzure> is that kk.org?
22:30 < fenn> yes
22:30 < kanzure> please point that out on om
22:32 < kanzure3_> http://hackaday.com/2009/02/10/the-ponginator/ yay vern (etc.)
22:37 < kanzure3_> better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPSoFYHywJw
22:47 < fenn> ah yes i recognize that honk noise from sprinkler valves
22:48 < gene> odd
22:50 < gene> my sprinkler valves never honk
22:52 < kanzure3_> maybe you're not using them correctly?
22:53 < gene> I use a pneumatic trigger valve
22:53 < gene> they use electric
22:53 < gene> pneumatic gives better performance than sprinkler valve solenoids
22:54 < fenn> i never got very good performance
22:54 < fenn> compared to a ball valve, wow!
22:54 < gene> then mod your valve
22:55 < fenn> how's that?
22:55 < gene> v
22:55 < gene> http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/modding-a-sprinkler-valve-t305.html
22:55 < gene> add a pilot valve
22:56 < gene> ever tried firing snowballs?
22:57 < fenn> no
22:57 < gene> good
22:57 < fenn> i made paintball "mortar shells" with cornstarch/food coloring and 3 styrofoam cups
22:58 < gene> because PVC becomes brittle near 0 degrees C
22:58 < fenn> ah, yeah ABS pipe
22:58 < fenn> they should ban PVC
22:58 < gene> ABS pipe?
22:58 < gene> pressure rated ABS?
22:58 < fenn> yes, it's black, looks like PVC pipe, fits pvc fittings
22:58 < gene> where the heck do you get that?
22:59 < fenn> won't shatter into sharp pieces
22:59 < fenn> i got it at the hardware store i worked at..
22:59 < gene> yeah I know
22:59 < gene> damn
22:59 < gene> you could fire that at cold temperatures
23:00 < fenn> there's that dark gray pipe, know what it's made of?
23:00 < gene> and high ones
23:00 < gene> huh?
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23:02 < fenn> google "abs drain pipe"
23:02 < gene> firefox crashed
23:02 < fenn> http://www.northamericanpipe.com/images/prod_ASTM_f628.jpg
23:03 < gene> drain pipe ain't PR?
23:03 < fenn> eh well it seems to work :)
23:04 < gene> well it won't turn into shrapnel
23:04 < gene> so I guess if it did break there wouldn't be much of a problem
23:04 < gene> how many psi do you run yours at?
23:06 < gene> I've never taken mine above 60 psi
23:06 < fenn> 90
23:06 < gene> what sort of range do you get?
23:06 < fenn> crap range, like 100 feet
23:06 < fenn> makes this awful honking noise
23:07 < fenn> sounds like a goose exploding
23:08 < gene> as I said use a pilot valve
23:08 < gene> and fill it with helium and extend the barrel
23:09 < fenn> and put hypersonic airfoils on the projectile to catch the transverse jets of hot hydrogen?
23:09 < fenn> launch that spud into space!
23:09 < gene> you can break the sound barrier if you use helium
23:10 < fenn> but.. why?
23:10 < gene> but we're running out of helium, so  I don't recommend it
23:10 < gene> why not?
23:10 < fenn> because there are better ways to make guns?
23:11 < gene> what's not cool about a tennis ball going at the speed of sound?
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23:13 < gene> or a golf breaking the sound barrier?
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23:40 < kanzure> pfft, 
23:41 < kanzure> "I want to do an inventory .. before I go schlepping it across the countryside"
23:41 < kanzure> there's a joke about UPS or FedEx in there somewhere
23:42 < gene> http://www.we-make-money-not-art.com/archives/2009/02/-thomas-thwaites-the-toaster.php
23:42 < gene> kanzure want to make a toaster?
23:42 < gene> from scratch?
23:42 < kanzure3_> " Its author, Thomas Thwaites is trying to make an electric toaster, from scratch. Beginning with mining the raw materials."
23:43 < kanzure3_> That's how I like my toast.
23:43 < gene> yeah me too
23:43 < gene> he wants to visit an oil rig to get teh oil
23:44 < gene> wonder if the chem-e's on our team have figured out that magic algae to crude thing yet...
23:46 < gene> wonder what that artist is going to do to make the plastic from scratch
23:46 < gene> will he make the catalysts too?
23:48 < fenn> why an electric toaster?
23:50 < fenn> bah he's cheating
23:50 < fenn> hair dryers.. 
23:51 < gene> hair dryers for stoking a fire
23:52 < gene> not a good idea
23:52 < gene> hair dryers have an internal heat limiting switch that prevents them from ever getting too hot
23:53 < fenn> and so do APC power stripts :(
23:53 < gene> rather annoying if you're trying to weld plastic sheets together with one to make a solar balloon 
23:53 < gene> but alas, it might catch on fire
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23:59 < kanzure3_> "Left to his own devices he couldn’t build a toaster. He could just about make a sandwich and that was it."
23:59 < kanzure3_> Mostly Harmless, Douglas Adams, 1992