--- Day changed Wed Feb 11 2009
00:00 < gene> heh
00:00 < gene> he's trying to copy a toster
00:00 < gene> he isn't being creative and using ceramics made from dirt for insulators
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02:03 < ybit> free time management software: http://www.rescuetime.com/
02:04 < ybit> ick, didn't see that it wasn't completely free
02:04 < ybit> http://www.rescuetime.com/signup -- shows what you are missing if you just get the free account
02:05 < nsh> sounds stupid
02:06 < nsh> tempted to sign-up, cain the site with scripted usage then make use of the no-questions-asked money-back guarantee 
02:06 < nsh> just out of principle
03:13 < kanzure3_> I must have a les-meter built in to my head
03:13 < kanzure3_> randomly waking up in the middle of the night just in time to receive his emails
03:17 < kanzure3_> http://openfarmtech.org/index.php?title=Recursion
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04:09 < nsh> has anyone kicked eliezer in the nuts yet?
04:09 < nsh> it's starting to become the only thing i can concentrate on
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08:34 < kanzure3_> http://www.heise-online.co.uk/security/Risky-MIME-sniffing-in-Internet-Explorer--/features/112589
08:34 < kanzure3_> seriously? embedding javascript in the MIME headers? hahah
09:06 < kanzure3_> http://openfarmtech.org/index.php?title=Replication
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10:02 < kanzure--> a day in the life at fablab austin [to be written] (per alec's suggestion.)
10:47 < nsh> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090211094038.htm
10:47 < nsh> consider investing
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12:42 < xp_prg2> kanzure you here?
12:44 < kanzure> maybe
12:45 < xp_prg2> are there chips that work with dna?
12:45 < xp_prg2> are they inexpensive?
12:45 < kanzure3_> yes, but not on the consumer market
12:45 < xp_prg2> I can't get one?
12:45 < kanzure3_> I don't know.
13:06 < fenn> "work with dna" probably doesnt mean what you want it to
13:12 < xp_prg2> fenn help me to know what I want to do
13:14  * fenn briefly considers using xp_prg2 as an unwitting pawn, and decides against it
13:17 < xp_prg2> no use me!
13:20 < fenn> "no use" you :(
13:20 < kanzure> hah
13:20 < kanzure> bravo.
13:20 < fenn> don't encourage me
13:21 < xp_prg2> use me damn it!
13:22 < fenn> xp_prg2: show me how to make a validator for yaml (and no, i dont want to use kwalify)
13:22 < kanzure3_> validator? do you mean a grammar parser?
13:23 < kanzure3_> hrm, grammar parser is the wrong word
13:23 < fenn> um.. more like "list of acceptable values"
13:23 < kanzure3_> you mean to check whether or not the syntax is valid?
13:23 < kanzure3_> hrm.
13:23 < fenn> bah i'll just match against a regex
13:23 < fenn> thanks xp_prg2 
13:23 < xp_prg2> what does that have to do with electronics and dna?
13:24 < fenn> i'm doing inventory of my electronics and want a consistent labeling scheme?
13:26 < kanzure> doesn't gEDA have a BOM tool? I don't recall how good it is though
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13:58 < fenn> each person on your team only needs to save 20 seconds per day to recoup the cost of the service. By using RescueTime, it's almost like adding another person to your team.
13:58 < fenn> so basically this is saying each person on the team only helps 20 seconds per day? what?
13:59 < fenn> oh, never mind my poor math skills
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15:01 < fenn> xp_prg2: are you william "tim" heath?
15:02 < fenn> ah yes, /me finds it in the logs
15:15 < xp_prg2> why?
15:16 < fenn> i was wondering why you sign your emails "tim"
15:39 < xp_prg2> cuz it is a nick name and just cuz :>
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16:27 < kanzure> so, I'm thinking that there's a way to dynamically plug-and-construct machine that could effectively be called a dynamic n-axis cnc machine
16:28 < kanzure> I was thinking it'd be nice to have an n-axis cnc machine design generator, since after a while the addition of a new axis gets kinda repetitive
16:28 < kanzure> but then again, I think someone wrote a proof once that a 6-axis cnc machine is sufficiently able to get things done that one wouldn't want to bother with >6
16:30 < kanzure> (i've also been thinking of a rocket that sings when flying vertically, as a ridiculous use of the air resistance)
16:38 < fenn> 5-axis is generally sufficient
16:38 < fenn> some robot stuff needs >6
16:38 < fenn> but only really weird stuff like welding around a corner
16:39 < kanzure> heh there was some ass on the diybio list saying "everybody has great ideas but nobody wants to commit time to them, that's why stuff like diybio always sucks"
16:40 < kanzure> sorry for the fablab I guess?
16:40 < kanzure> I'm pretty sure that's just a meme that a cynic is regurgitating though
16:43 < kanzure3_> "Published works in numerical simulation of DNA migration. in agarose gel electrophoresis"
16:44 < fenn> btw re: n-axis cnc machine, EMC really needs some kind of arbitrary kinematics builder, it would simplify a lot of tech support for people doing weird stuff
16:44 < kanzure3_> oh really?
16:44 < fenn> right now you have to write custom C to do all the trigonometry
16:44 < kanzure3_> would metal linkages be ok for arbitrary kinematics?
16:44 < fenn> huh? by definition that's not arbitrary
16:44 < fenn> you mean planar pivots right?
16:45 < kanzure3_> yes, but toss me the name of another type of linkage
16:45 < fenn> prismatic, revolute, ball and socket
16:46 < kanzure3_> so, pradeep at ADL is working on metal linkages and maybe a few of those types of linkages 
16:46 < kanzure3_> and then uses these to build some design that matches some kinematic motion profile
16:46 < kanzure3_> (he isn't doing motion profile matching yet AFAIK)
16:47 < kanzure3_> most software like that apparently does it in reverse: user draws a curve, and then the program comes up with a few links of stuffs and different types of links, and then the program comes up with some design.
16:47 < fenn> i remember some artist had a collection of linkages that signed his name
16:47 < kanzure3_> that's a neat one.
16:47 < kanzure3_> is that a Signature machine though?
16:47 < kanzure3_> politicians apparently have machines that sign their names via holding pens
16:47 < kanzure3_> but it's probably actuated/digital
16:47 < fenn> it was all linkages, not a pantograph
16:48 < kanzure3_> and there's also this -> http://www.robotics.utexas.edu/rrg/research/manipd/
16:48 < kanzure3_> under "Current Research Emphasis" see the first diagram of "starting kinematic configuration" which is what I think you're asking for.
16:49 < fenn> modularity is good, but the more redundant joints you have the harder it is to control
16:50 < fenn> didnt they have some kind of big black truss/tetrahedron?
16:50 < kanzure3_> Marrs, M. R. and Tesar, D.  "Design of an Advanced, High-Precision, Seven Degree-of-Freedom Modular Robotic Manipulator."  Thesis, UT Austin, 1997.
16:50 < kanzure3_> huh? don't know
16:52 < kanzure3_> "Hi Bryan, thanks for that!  I do like the idea of domestic appliances using themselves to replicate themselves like a down to earth fablab/ universal replicator thing (after all mundane domestic objects would most likely be the ultimate use for such powerful tools)!
16:52 < kanzure3_> Anyway, thanks for your interest...  I was kind of wrong footed by the sudden blog attention but it's really encouraging to have people emailing from all over!" - Thomas Thwaites
16:52 < fenn> http://www.robotics.utexas.edu/rrg/general/facilities/vgt.htm
16:55 < kanzure3_> I really want that to be modular. plug a few of those together or something.
17:01 < fenn> hexegrity is possibly the cheapest motion platform possible: http://fennetic.net/machines/hexegrity
17:01 < fenn> i want to put one of those on each face of an octahedron
17:02 < fenn> if you can make sense of that drawing.. i should really get hacking on that java applet
17:21 < kanzure3_> David Treadwell's business - http://www.quintillionmaterials.com/
17:22 < kanzure3_> aha, here we go
17:22 < kanzure3_> http://ferrocene.livejournal.com/
17:23 < kanzure3_> was wondering how I found treadwell
17:23 < kanzure3_> turns out I emailed him back in March of last year about kinematic self-replication and materials science
17:23 < kanzure3_> (as I mentioned, I met him at the robotgroup meeting last Thursday, apparently he recognized me)
17:35 < fenn> nice bench; http://pics.livejournal.com/ferrocene/pic/0003wqkr/
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17:48 < kanzure3_> complimentary cat.
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18:27 < fenn> the cat is decorative
18:31 < kanzure> off to go to a physics test and then the actlab for dorkbot and to chat it up with rauchwerk about things
18:31 < kanzure> he claims he's "up to his eyes in coding unptnt" but I don't believe that .. if he was really drowning, he would have already given me something to code, or listened to our packaging ideas.
18:31 < kanzure> (why am I still condemned to manipulating pointless (get it?) vectors on paper for tests?)
18:32  * fenn manipulates pointful vectors in an applet
18:32 < fenn> trying to figure out the easiest way to do a hamiltonian traversal over an octahedron
18:33 < fenn> i guess i'll just type out a bunch of numbers
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18:39 < fenn> hm i dont need the hamiltonian, just the set of non-diagonals
18:51 < fenn> man java is lame
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19:13 < gene> kanzure?
20:51 < ybit> bkero: where did you say you were formally an IT administrator? portland uni.. something.. i forget
20:52 < fenn> oregon state university open source lab
20:52 < fenn> in corvallis, not portland
20:53 < bkero> ybit: That's correct.
20:53 < bkero> And not formerly
21:02 < fenn> aw man, i got suckered
21:03 < fenn> ken perlin's java applet doesnt do a real simulation
21:03 < fenn> it just moves the moving thingy closer to the center
21:03 < fenn> instead of simulating all the spring forces on it
21:08 < fenn> this is what I'm going on about: http://fennetic.net/machines/hexegrity/hexegrity.html
21:08 < fenn> it should rotate slightly due to the asymmetry in the string attachments
21:08 < fenn> oh well it gets the point across
21:13 < kanzure> blah, I left dorkbot early because the only cool stuff there was charlie's bag of reprap parts. but seriously.. it's all "craft" crap.
21:13  * kanzure hasn't ran a java applet in .. quite a while. proudly.
21:13 < fenn> moved to: http://fennetic.net/machines/hexegrity-applet/hexegrity.html
21:31 < kanzure> heh, so I went to dorkbot to see dave
21:31 < kanzure> and he didn't show up, but sent me an SMS which I found out about by checking email
21:31 < kanzure> yay technology
21:35 < fenn> woo
21:45 < gene> kanzure did you see the wood burner?
21:45 < gene> ha you missed the water bridge
21:45 < gene> but yeah, craft shit
21:45 < gene> stuff in the other room was cool
21:45 < fenn> cnc soldering iron?
21:46 < gene> nope
21:46  * fenn can't imagine any other use for a wood burner
21:46 < gene> as in some pencil drawing on a piece of wood
21:46 < gene> hooked up to a neon sign transform
21:46 < gene> er
21:47 < fenn> isn't wood an insulator?
21:47 < gene> no, and yes
21:47 < gene> graphite isn't
21:47 < fenn> uh, so it conducts down the graphite trace?
21:47 < gene> it was quite possibly the most beautiful thing I have ever seen
21:48 < gene> kanzure you didn't see the water bridge?
21:48 < gene> due watching an arc burn through wood is something else
21:48 < gene> nice and white
21:49 < ybit> bkero: oh. i thought you were with google now
21:49 < gene> same guy also tried to use an X-ray transformer to make a levitating bridge of water between two cups
21:50 < gene> didn't work very well
21:50 < gene> kept turning into a jacobs lader
21:50 < gene> a jacobs ladder made of DI water
21:50 < fenn> water + HV = fun! or death..
21:50 < gene> this guy was an expert
21:50 < gene> he wore gloves
21:51 < fenn> gloves dont do that much at 50kV
21:51 < davidnunez> Im curious (kanzure gene): what, in your mind, elevates an activity outside of "craft shit" 
21:52 < gene> yeah I know
21:52 < davidnunez> ...or maybe, what is your definition of "craft crap"?
21:57 < bkero> ybit: That was an internship.  I'm done.
21:57 < gene> is it intended to make people think about certain things, while doing it in approach that has been tried many times before, just dressed up differently
21:57 < gene> that can be considered craft crap
21:58 < fenn> or not dressed up differently
21:59 < fenn> and having no real use..
21:59 < gene> does it explode, make loud noises, make bright light, make the very air itself glow?
21:59 < gene> not craft crap
22:00 < davidnunez> I share the frustration, but I think I'm not as dismissive...  
22:00 < davidnunez> Here's an example: LED Throwies.
22:00 < gene> building stuff just for the heck of it," hey guys let's build a completely mechanical computer capable of running crisis in real time"
22:01 < fenn> gene: uh, sounds pretty cool to me
22:01 < gene> = not craft crap
22:01 < davidnunez> GRL "invented" or more accurately "popularized" LED Throwies and had a really original / political slant to their approach.
22:02 < gene> the sad thing about LED throwies is that people are to afraid to use them, and people are too stupid to recognize them as something other than a bomb
22:02 < fenn> how can LED's be political?
22:02 < gene> can't I just build something just for fun?
22:03 < davidnunez> GRL is all about subversive expression of technology - political.  But that's not the point....
22:04 < gene> subversive and disruptive is how I like my tech
22:04 < davidnunez> Their throwies have been coopted by schools and magazines and diy crafty clubs who get together and TAPE (not even solder) an LED circuit together.  
22:04 < gene> but they are fun though
22:05 < davidnunez> Sure!  Tons of fun and easy.  
22:05 < gene> heh made my own version
22:05 < gene> made a levitating LED lamp
22:05 < davidnunez> But I get very frustrated because people (not you-- you made your own version) just STOP there.  They don't explore further.  
22:06 < davidnunez> and because of the DIY marketing machine, people are equating LED Throwies with "innovation"  "I'm a 1337 hax0r cuz I made LED throwies by following a paint-by-numbers instruction manual"
22:06 < gene> well I was really just an LED battery and some tape attached to a mylar balloon and balanced in such a manner as to be aesthetically pleasing
22:07 < davidnunez> I don't know how that fits in with "apt-get install washing_machine"  which is the ULTIMATE paint-by-numbers experience... not even painting, really.  
22:08 < davidnunez> but I do think there is a total lack of "what's next?" and "so what?" in much of the DIY space. 
22:08 < gene> in order to be 1337 you must make a machine capable of graffiting a wall from a sufficiently far away to be unnoticed unmarked van
22:09 < fenn> cnc paintball gun?
22:09 < gene> throwie gun
22:09 < fenn> but throwies arent graffiti
22:09 < davidnunez> To sum up (and shut myself up): I think "Hello Worlds" are SO important.   But they are not enough.  People who are excited enough to ask "what next?" have a big empty void to cross to get out of "craft" land
22:09 < fenn> it's just a bunch of blinking lights
22:09 < fenn> there's no "message"
22:10 < gene> david I'll admit, I am guilty of copying projects
22:11 < davidnunez> gene: so do you think when you copy projects you're making "craft crap"?  I'm not trying to be confrontational... I really do want to understand attitudes around these ideas.
22:11 < fenn> well, find some crackers that used to be script kiddies and see what changed their worldview
22:11 < gene> how else was I supposed to get 405 nm laser that cheaply?
22:11 < fenn> though my enlightenment was that we have precious few new ideas, and way more than we realize is copied from others
22:12 < fenn> gene: that's not the point
22:12 < fenn> the point is you're trying to do something with that laser, not just make it to say you did it
22:12 < fenn> but david's complaining about people who just build the laser as a science fair project
22:13 < fenn> even though there's no science
22:13 < davidnunez> so in your world view, _applied_ hacking is what makes the activity worthwhile?   Does art fit?
22:13 < fenn> if you're not pushing the boundaries or doing quantity production, you're wasting your time
22:14 < fenn> quantity production = supporting the rest of civilization
22:14 < davidnunez> that's good.  That sums it up and can apply to lots of context.
22:14 < davidnunez> if you're not pushing the boundaries of art, you're just painting-by-numbers
22:15 < fenn> == craft
22:15 < fenn> uh, i read some definitions of this a while ago, but i cant remember the precise wordings
22:16 < fenn> craft is about the skill with which something is executed
22:17 < davidnunez> (Although.  devil's advocate -- You have to PRACTICE lots before you get to be great.  Copying other people's work is a time-honored tradition for building up skills (think pianists).  You have to be ready with the right tools when the lightning bolt of inspiration hits)
22:17 < fenn> blah.. totally unrelated google results for "craft art science"
22:17 < fenn> there are other ways to learn than practice
22:17 < davidnunez> Sure.  But it's a good way.
22:18 < fenn> although i concede that practice is effective
22:18 < davidnunez> Heh.  What's the equivalent to practicing your scales in building robots?
22:18 < fenn> the thing is, you can usually find something new that's still baseline easy, vs copying a hello world program
22:19 < fenn> line follower, cockroach (hides from light), balance bot, logo turtle
22:19 < gene> well I just wanted a high powered violet laser
22:19 < davidnunez> True.  I guess, though, you'd need to have a little experience to know what's innovative.  You can assume a newbie is going to come up with the exact same set of revelations as all their predecessors for a long while.
22:20 < fenn> meh.. i've never built a line follower but i can guess that it'll be boring
22:20 < gene> though I just found out I might be able to make a spectrograph
22:21 < davidnunez> cross connect photoresistor comparison w/ wheels.  done.
22:21 < fenn> gene: have you been following diybio?
22:21 < gene> not really fenn
22:21 < gene> I've been doing schoool
22:22 < fenn> gene: well, the discussion i'm following is about an agarose gel in a straw; i'd like to be able to make a cheap spectrometer that you could detect dna with as it goes down the straw
22:22 < davidnunez> but yeah... actually, it's a good example because there are so many ways you can build a line follower.  It reminds me of when I used to run software interviews... we'd ask "Write a program that sorts a list alphabetically" 
22:22 < gene> well then fenn
22:22 < davidnunez> and then see how long it takes to make the program more and more optimal. 
22:22 < gene> you might be in luck
22:22 < fenn> i dunno if DNA absorbs at 405nm though
22:22 < fenn> you can get 305nm LED's which might work
22:23 < davidnunez> tangent complete.  Thanks!
22:24 < fenn> davidnunez: that's a fairly computer-sciencey question, so you're favoring people who went to school and not necessarily people who know how to write programs that work well and are maintainable
22:24 < gene> kanzure, so anychance of visiting the fab
22:24 < fenn> its like "write a function that maps a function to a hash in language xyz"
22:24 < davidnunez> fenn: I totally agree.  software job interviews == hazing.   
22:24 < gene> david it's fun just to build things even if they aren't your own design
22:25 < gene> but I agree, there are lot's of script kiddies
22:25 < davidnunez> gene: so why do you call other people's work "craft crap?"
22:25 < gene> because I find it uninteresting
22:25 < fenn> craft crap should be well executed if you're going to show it off
22:25 < davidnunez> fair enough.
22:26 < fenn> nobody wants to see bad art
22:26 < gene> though people can make bad art if it suits them
22:26 < davidnunez> Yeah.  "Don't get too proud of your LED throwies... there's a whole big world out there"
22:27 < davidnunez> I want to be the guy with the lantern waving over the crafters w/ promise out of the mob of paint-by-numbers artists.... giving them a direction to learn and to start applying their hacking to interesting problems.   
22:27 < davidnunez> blah.. blah.. blah... speculative hacking.. blah ;)
22:29 < gene> well one reason for paint by the number type things, is that they can enable one to make something very hard to buy
22:29 < gene> like a potato cannon or a high power laser
22:29 < fenn> but that's something different
22:30 < fenn> it's not paint-by-numbers anymore, it's manufacturing autonomy or something
22:30 < fenn> assuming you actually do something with it
22:30 < fenn> like shoot potatoes
22:31 < fenn> hurr
22:31 < fenn> i dunno, maybe a potato cannon is craft crap
22:32 < fenn> for one birthday my dad bought me these little guns you stick in potatoes and squeeze to shoot the potato pip across the room.. i was not very happy
22:32 < gene> I guess it is
22:32 < gene> but mine is unique
22:38 < gene> but no need to go Haruhi complex over things like these
22:39 < davidnunez> There's a guy that shows up in Make a lot (Will Gurstelle?) that believes the potato cannon is the perfect hello world for kids interested in garage engineering... it's got just enough danger factor and accomplishment difficulty that can hook someone into a world of hacks for life. 
22:39 < gene> no it doesn't
22:39 < davidnunez> for kids, gene.
22:39 < gene> perchlorate production cells are the way to go
22:40 < davidnunez> I guess a kid would need either the personal drive or support of great parents to build the very next thing after the potato cannon.  it's the NEXT thing you build after the throwie that matters, maybe.  and the next thing after that. .. maybe as long as you're continuing to build up, you're not just "crafting"
22:41 < fenn> explosives and garage engineering is a fine line..
22:41 < gene> sigh...
22:41 < gene> never built one though
22:41 < fenn> not sure it's the best thing to be promoting
22:42 < fenn> if you had an army of telepresence robots, then fine, blow stuff up
22:42 < fenn> but we dont have the ability to regenerate limbs and organs yet
22:42 < gene> well now that I think about it a chlorate production cell is pretty dangerous to the environment
22:42 < fenn> even professionals get killed, see what happened at scaled composites
22:43 < gene> damn chlorate ion
22:43 < gene> is toxic
22:50 < ybit> bkero: did you enjoy it? would it be an organization you could see yourself working for?
22:51 < bkero> ybit: Absolutely
22:51 < bkero> It's the only large company I've seen that I would be willing to work for
22:56 < gene> http://www.physorg.com/news153597694.html
22:56 < gene> could this day get any more awesome
22:57 < gene> 2 satellites collided in space!
23:03 < bkero> More importantly
23:03 < bkero> New futurama movie got leaked yesterday.
23:04  * fenn has a planetes flashback
23:05 < fenn> all we need is an electrodynamic tether, some solar panels, and an electron gun
23:05 < fenn> blast those bits out of orbit
23:06 < fenn> though apparently it was in a low orbit so they should decay quickly
23:08 < fenn> haha another collision: http://www.physorg.com/news153144094.html
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