--- Day changed Sun Feb 15 2009 00:02 < h2i> google os: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Es_(operating_system) 00:19 -!- ferrouswheel [n=jp@203-109-203-98.static.ihug.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:37 -!- ferrouswheel [n=jp@203-109-203-98.static.ihug.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 00:40 < gene> that would be great kanzure 01:02 -!- ferrouswheel [n=jp@203-109-203-98.static.ihug.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:25 -!- h2i is now known as beachsurfin3 01:25 -!- beachsurfin3 is now known as ybit 01:28 -!- mindspillage is now known as mind|wandering 01:57 < ybit> http://edacious.hypertriton.com/ 02:20 < gene> there's already opensauce stuff for that ybit 02:20 < gene> kanzure's used some of it 02:23 -!- ferrouswheel [n=jp@203-109-203-98.static.ihug.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:03 -!- ferrouswheel [n=jp@203-109-203-98.static.ihug.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:04 < ybit> right, i just thought it was intersting 03:08 -!- ferrouswheel [n=jp@203-109-203-98.static.ihug.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:38 -!- ferrouswheel [n=jp@203-109-203-98.static.ihug.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:42 -!- ferrouswheel [n=jp@203-109-203-98.static.ihug.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:48 -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-91-63.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:33 -!- nsh [n=kaapo@c49.adsl.tnnet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 06:28 -!- mind|wandering [n=kat@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:30 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:36 -!- davidnunez [n=davidnun@209-6-203-217.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:51 -!- nsh [n=kaapo@c49.adsl.tnnet.fi] has quit ["Your mom is so ugly, when she went to McDonalds, they couldn't serve happy meals."] 09:13 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@173.48.207.37] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:46 -!- jm|afk [n=jm@p57B9F854.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:03 -!- jm|earth [n=jm@p57B9BDA1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:50 < kanzure> why haven't I downloaded the entire debian mirror yet? 10:50 < kanzure> it's not like etch or lenny changes daily 10:54 -!- jookos [n=kaapo@c49.adsl.tnnet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:56 < kanzure> Hey jookos. 11:01 -!- jookos is now known as nsh 11:11 < nsh> tis i, for sooth 11:20 -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbp-ac10-31-119.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:26 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:29 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:36 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@173.48.207.37] has quit [] 12:40 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:45 < kanzure3_> http://www.rehabengineer.com/files/Images/datahands.jpg 12:46 < kanzure> So, Emil has a datahand keyboard interface because he has tendonitis (he claims because of some bad keyboards from when he used to work back at Sun Microsystems) 13:01 < kanzure3_> http://heybryan.org/calxism/index2.html (written 2005-07-21) 13:03 < kanzure> That's just something I was linking Paul to, in a demonstration of some weird thinking I used to be doing. When reading it, it sounds like Eliezer to me. How did I get out of that rut in my thinking though? 13:03 < kanzure> (the answer is probably Tony) 13:06 < fenn> yes except eliezer has The Answer 13:06 < fenn> sort of 13:06 < kanzure> 'cept he doesn't :( 13:06 < kanzure> did you check out that 2006 email I forwarded? 13:06 < fenn> well he puts a friendly label on it which makes it seem like he does 13:06 < fenn> no not yet 13:06 < kanzure> I was just looking back over it a few seconds ago. 13:08 < kanzure> interesting how I was on the same line of thought even back then, and I'm kind of going back to it now more or less (or I never really left it) 13:10 < fenn> we all have our hobbies :) 13:16 < fenn> "Disease has causes - health does not." sort of a backward way of looking at things 13:16 < kanzure3_> what I suggested to Emil was using Hod Lipson's tendon analysis of the human hand, and then using that to determine the full range of human motion in the hand, and consequently automatically generate an optimal keyboard for that muscular structure in the hand 13:16 < kanzure3_> blah, my server isn't receiving messages any more 13:17 < kanzure3_> ping pong 13:17 < fenn> i thought that's what the datahand was, but the cross shaped activation pattern doesn't quite fit 13:18 -!- kanzure [n=bbishop@66.112.232.117] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:20 < fenn> then he turns right around and says "health is not a matter of chance or accident but that the organism functions according to known and demonstrable laws" 13:20 < fenn> writers.. bah 13:24 < fenn> "unsustainable" eh? 13:24 < kanzure3_> I wish there was a way to mark an individual email in a thread as unread 13:25 < fenn> there is, in pine 13:25 < kanzure3_> sorry, I meant to say in gmail 13:25 < kanzure3_> I used to use a separate client, kmail 13:25 < kanzure3_> and before that, mutt 13:25 < fenn> i wish pine had threading 13:25 < kanzure3_> but ever since the laptop crash, I haven't wanted to do the one-time download from the pop3 server 13:25 < fenn> imap is better because it leaves your mail on the server too 13:26 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:29 < fenn> kanzure3_: is this essay yours? it doesn't seem like your style 13:30 < kanzure3_> the "Notes on Health" ? 13:30 < kanzure3_> there were two emails 13:31 < kanzure3_> "Notes on Health" was me 13:31 < kanzure3_> hrm. heybryan.org's internet connection has vanished 13:32 < fenn> this line just seemed weird "I hate to think what might happen if we are able to propagate throughout the universe while attached to the growth of modern societal structure." 13:32 < kanzure3_> exponential cancers. 13:33 < fenn> ...so? 13:33 < fenn> how many people is enough? 13:34 < kanzure3_> in neverness, The Vild was a region of space where stars were going supernova because humans were using all of the energy to exponentially replicate. giant space habitats full of babies. 13:34 < fenn> but you've decided that's a bad thing 13:36 * fenn thinks this might be philosophy 13:36 < kanzure3_> I could think of some better things to do. 13:36 < kanzure3_> at the moment my attention is split 13:36 < kanzure3_> andrew and I are going over some layout ideas for pinkarmy 13:37 < kanzure3_> we can talk later about whether or not it's interesting to conver the galaxy into human mass :p 13:47 < kanzure3_> is that healthy? 14:21 < kanzure3_> blah, turns out Andrew Hessel is the one who pitched the genomic x prize idea. 14:21 < kanzure3_> oh, a synthesis xprize 14:21 < kanzure3_> not the same as the sequencing x prize idea. 14:24 < nsh> pinkarmy? 14:28 < fenn> am i missing something here? "DIYbiologists may also want to have some sort of pledge like the medical one (to do no harm) before they become "licensed" to serve" 14:31 < nsh> sounds stupid 14:36 < kanzure3_> fenn: who wrote that? roger brent? 14:38 < fenn> julie norville 14:39 < fenn> the MIT "outreach" person 14:40 < kanzure3_> MIT? blah 14:41 < kanzure3_> hm 14:41 < kanzure3_> andrew wants me to send him a bio of myself 14:41 < kanzure3_> a blurb for the pinkarmy website 14:41 < kanzure3_> hrm. 14:41 < kanzure3_> "at age 12, bryan proceeded to take over the world" 14:42 < nsh> pinkarmy is WHUTPLS 14:42 < kanzure3_> is what? 14:42 < kanzure3_> pinkarmy.org 14:42 < nsh> is what, please? 14:42 < nsh> rrr 14:42 < kanzure3_> "PinkArmy is the working name of an open source biology project based in Canada that is taking aim at breast cancer therapeutic development. The goal of the project is to create personalized medicines that are safe, effective, and affordable. We expect to be fully active in 2008. " 14:43 < nsh> why does everything to do with breast cancer have to be fucking pink 14:43 < nsh> god i hate that colour 14:43 < fenn> heheh 14:43 < fenn> your nick is pink in my client 14:44 < nsh> yay 14:49 < willPow3r> because titties are pink? 14:50 < kanzure3_> who the hell is Ted on om? 14:50 < kanzure3_> is this les in disguise? 14:51 < kanzure3_> oh shit, he's shopbot 14:52 < kanzure3_> woah 14:58 -!- SL4observer [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbm-ac09-125-63.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:59 -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbp-ac10-31-119.dial.mts.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:59 -!- SL4observer [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbm-ac09-125-63.dial.mts.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:59 -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbm-ac09-125-63.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap --- Log closed Sun Feb 15 15:05:35 2009 --- Log opened Sun Feb 15 15:08:19 2009 15:08 -!- kanzure [i=bryan@66.112.232.233] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:08 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 17 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 17 normal] 15:08 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 0 secs 15:08 < kanzure> hm, kde crashed 15:14 < fenn> i havent actually looked at shopbot much 15:16 -!- ferrouswheel [n=jp@203-109-203-98.static.ihug.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:16 < kanzure> there's some cultural stigmatism from the fablab groups against shopbot, IIRC 15:16 < kanzure> (so I haven't either) 15:17 < nsh> *stigma 15:17 < nsh> an astigmatism is an eye defect 15:17 < fenn> from the fablab? i thought that shopbot was their main tool 15:17 < fenn> er, after the laser cutter :P 15:18 < kanzure> oh wait. that's true. 15:20 < PeerInfinity> see also "eye stigmata": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=874dnj6qPQk 15:21 -!- nsh [n=kaapo@c49.adsl.tnnet.fi] has quit ["Your mom is so ugly, when she went to McDonalds, they couldn't serve happy meals."] 15:21 < kanzure> fenn: will you reply to Ted? 15:26 < fenn> um, no, i dont know what to say 15:26 < fenn> and it would probably take hours 15:26 < fenn> 'look at skdb' 15:27 < kanzure> right. 15:27 < fenn> 'gimme a sample shopbot to test' 15:27 < kanzure> what's with eric's focus on media? 15:27 < fenn> he explained that in the last post 15:27 < kanzure> nick's focus on media is obvious, he's just a moron 15:27 < kanzure> I replied to that 15:28 < kanzure> he claims that media is so that there's some healthy development forming and such in out-of-industry areas 15:28 < kanzure> but he used electronics as an example 15:28 < kanzure> and then contradicted it at the end of his email, so I'm kinda confused now 15:31 < fenn> "media" is eric's old-fashioned way of saying "sharing of designs for stuff to do" 15:31 < kanzure> hm. 15:32 < kanzure> but then nick comes in and talks about videos 15:32 < kanzure> and messes things up 15:32 < kanzure> what was with eric's list of media projects though? he wanted them in books/packages, as if they weren't digitized 15:32 < kanzure> kinda useless. 15:33 < fenn> not entirely useless, people will pay lots of money for books and videos which contain the same content they expect for free online 15:33 < fenn> which enables people to spend a lot of time on creating high quality information 15:34 < fenn> the trick is keeping the focus on creating high quality information, not books 15:34 < kanzure> I think there needs to be a distinguishing between whether or not we just want to instruct newbies forever or if we want the system scaling and such 15:34 < kanzure> right 15:34 < kanzure> I mean, instructions are important but I don't know if it's an end goal here 15:35 < kanzure> hrm, hard to describe my complaint 15:35 < fenn> there's too much focus on 30-second intro newbie wrangling 15:35 < fenn> the newbie won't start out in the right place anyway 15:35 < fenn> they'll just search youtube and click on whatever the first result is 15:35 < fenn> 'how to sodder' 15:36 < kanzure> what I'm more interested in is the use of these tools, somewhat as an education tool- yes- but to use them to build even better stuff. bootstrapping/upcreation should be a journey that anyone can join in on, and if they want to "get on the ride" at one point and then "get off the ride" at another point (i.e., a particular capability they want), that's fine 15:36 < kanzure> but I'm in it for the long ride. 15:37 < kanzure> don't know how to describe that. 15:37 < kanzure> (did I get cutoff there?) 15:37 < fenn> no 15:37 < kanzure> that might be a useful way of saying it on om 15:42 < fenn> keep in mind eric got involved in this as part of the LUF space colonization project 15:42 * fenn paces around, looking at piles of stuff 15:43 < kanzure> organized piles of stuff? 15:43 < kanzure> I used to pace around in a small confined space, and consequently got blisters. 15:43 < kanzure> you will have lots of pacing space at the shop. heh' 15:47 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/camera/DCP_0857.JPG 15:47 < fenn> bah my camera sucks 15:50 < fenn> i guess i should take pictures of everything and see if you want anything in particular 15:53 < kanzure> as opposed to the inventory list? 15:54 < fenn> inventory list would take too long 16:16 < kanzure> huh? you already wrote one up I thought? of your stuff? 16:17 < kanzure> sorry for my lag. wrote that ted-email. 16:19 < fenn> there was an email with a list of general categories but it's not what i'd call an inventory 16:23 < kanzure> well, if you do decide to take photos, I'll certainly look over them, but I'm not saying it's a good idea 16:23 < kanzure> (I can't give a better idea though) 16:25 -!- SL4observer [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbf-ac03-57-74.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:25 -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbm-ac09-125-63.dial.mts.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:25 -!- SL4observer [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbf-ac03-57-74.dial.mts.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:25 -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbf-ac03-57-74.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:42 -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbf-ac03-57-74.dial.mts.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:36 < fenn> blah. so i managed to secure a camera for like 10 minutes 17:37 < fenn> see any books you might like? http://fennetic.net/pub/camera/ralston-inventory/15022009298.jpg 17:39 < fenn> most digital cameras are so lame.. seems like they just scale up low res images 17:44 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/camera/?Qwd=./ralston-inventory 17:51 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:10 < kanzure> ack, you're going to get rid of your books? :( 18:11 < kanzure> is "profiles of the future" worthwhile? 18:11 < kanzure> it's probably on the web somewhere, nevermind 18:12 < kanzure> the Marshall Savage book I haven't seen anywhere, that's interesting. Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is supposedly a classic that you shouldn't let go of 18:12 < kanzure> http://fennetic.net/pub/camera/?Qwd=./ralston-inventory&Qif=15022009306.jpg&Qiv=thumbs&Qis=M not sure if you want to give up your drill set 18:14 < kanzure> http://fennetic.net/pub/camera/?Qwd=./ralston-inventory&Qif=15022009299.jpg&Qiv=thumbs&Qis=M drill bits in obscure sizes might be hard to come by in general? 18:14 < kanzure> http://fennetic.net/pub/camera/?Qwd=./ralston-inventory&Qif=15022009297.jpg&Qiv=thumbs&Qis=M what? 18:15 < fenn> i have way more air tools than that btw 18:15 < fenn> the drill bits are large sizes 18:16 < fenn> white boxes are thin clients 18:16 < kanzure> what type of thin clients? old school IBM AT terminals? 18:16 < fenn> netier xl1000 18:16 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/machines/netier 18:17 < kanzure> I'd take 'em. 18:17 < kanzure> is the bike on your list? if it can be disassembled easily for storage, I'd consider it 18:17 < fenn> i'm going to take 2 for testing 18:17 < fenn> the bike won't fit in the car 18:17 < kanzure> are you able to store some of this stuff? 18:17 < kanzure> even when taken apart? 18:17 < fenn> these are pics of things i'm leaving at the house 18:18 < kanzure> how is that going to work 18:18 < fenn> the question is whether certain things should be taken instead, keeping in mind i'm taking a lot of "good" stuff too 18:18 < fenn> well, there's nobody living here 18:18 < fenn> so, the stuff will sit in the basement, presumably 18:19 < fenn> does it rain in texas? 18:19 < kanzure> hrm, the networking equipment .. 18:19 < kanzure> yes 18:20 < kanzure> there are periods of droughts though, certainly 18:21 < kanzure> "I notice South by Southwest has a panel discussion: Rebuilding the 18:21 < kanzure> World with Free Everything 18:21 < kanzure> (Doc Searls, Linux Journal) 18:21 < kanzure> http://sxsw.com/interactive/talks/panels?action=show&id=IAP0900737" 18:21 < kanzure> Tuesday, March 17th 18:21 < kanzure> "BarCampESM (Enterprise Systems Management) is slated for 18:21 < kanzure> April 4 and Cloud Camp Austin will be April 7" 18:22 < kanzure> "Last year's BarCampESM 18:22 < kanzure> had lots of people from various open source projects (Puppet, OpenNMS, 18:22 < kanzure> Zenoss, Nagios, etc." 18:22 < kanzure> hrm 18:37 < kanzure> I don't know how to write a bio of myself. I have enough trouble uploading myself to a hard drive, much less a paragraph. 18:53 < kanzure> http://www.commandlinefu.com/commands/browse 18:56 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@ip72-195-135-109.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:59 < kanzure> wrldpc: how would you write a bio about me? 19:09 -!- wrldpc_ [n=ben@ip72-195-135-109.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:09 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@ip72-195-135-109.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:25 -!- wrldpc_ [n=ben@ip72-195-135-109.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:25 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@ip72-195-135-109.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:36 < kanzure> ooh right, I founded the IEEE Manufacturing Automation Group 19:40 < fenn> heh writing proper prose is easy 19:40 < fenn> erm, hard i mean 19:40 < fenn> splatting out lists of stuff you did is easy 19:40 < fenn> it's hard to express context though 19:41 < fenn> and, keep in mind you're only 19 19:42 < fenn> my 'take' pile is starting to look too big 19:46 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@ip72-195-135-109.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:48 < kanzure> "Bryan Bishop is a multi-specialized autodidact and generally intense fellow working in the Automated Design Lab and Sata Biofuel Group at the University of Texas at Austin. Having founded the IEEE Manufacturing Automation Group, Bryan is also working on open source hardware and open manufacturing at the Austin Fab Lab." 19:49 < kanzure> does that make me sound like a prick? 19:49 < kanzure> and I was thinking of another sentence to mention diybio, synthetic biology, or my work in molecular biology (not much) 19:59 < kanzure> "Bryan Bishop is a multi-specialized autodidact and generally intense fellow working in the Automated Design Lab and Sata Biofuel Group at the University of Texas at Austin, where he founded the IEEE Manufacturing Automation Group. Bryan works on open source hardware and open manufacturing at the Austin Fab Lab. He especially enjoys making open tools for the diybio and synthetic biology communities." 19:59 < kanzure> blah 19:59 < kanzure> "He does nothing. Go away." 20:06 < kanzure> is Frankco's email correct on diybio? dipping a liquid would mean the other liquids would wash away so I'm not sure how that would work 20:40 -!- ybit [n=heath@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:42 -!- ybit [n=heath@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:56 < kanzure> "In the Transhuman Space roleplaying game it told the story of a scientifically brilliant billionaire (he could certainly afford his many offspring) who built a space colony for the thousands of clones he had made of himself (the children were decanted as babies and did not have his personality downloaded into them)! They were one massive laissez-faire 20:56 < kanzure> think tank and people would make pilgrimages to the facility to seek their aid in research projects. " 21:00 < fenn> i wonder where it got this idea "/dev/hda2 has gone 7717 days without being checked, check forced" 21:01 < fenn> in his spare time, bryan enjoys making bookmarks and spamming mailing lists with url's 21:01 < kanzure> aww, come on now 21:02 < kanzure> really? I can stop if it's that bad 21:02 < fenn> no i just think it's funny 21:02 < kanzure> :) 21:02 < kanzure> "in his spare time- wait, what?" 21:02 < fenn> s/also/currently/ 21:03 < fenn> oh you changed it, nm 21:03 < kanzure> I was looking at squid-labs as some representative models 21:03 < kanzure> unfortunately I don't have a bajillion phd's 21:06 < fenn> more stuff @ http://fennetic.net/pub/camera/?Qwd=./ralston-inventory 21:06 < kanzure> appended past n=31? 21:07 < fenn> different naming scheme 21:07 < fenn> (different camera 21:09 < fenn> i wonder if it's safe to have this can of methylene chloride in the car 21:27 < kanzure> (09:24:18 PM) Tito: we're trying to make a magnetic lid for our gel box, and we want the current to run through the magnet, as well 21:27 < kanzure> gee, what's wrong with a plastic tab at the end of the gel box top (like a refrigerator's light switch) 21:30 < fenn> current run through the magnet? that's goofy 21:30 < kanzure> the front of the gel box is 1/4 inch thick, so the tab would have to be 1/8 inch or something. 21:31 < kanzure> (lid-closed detection switch) 21:31 < kanzure> "I really want a SPOF for the circuit" 21:31 < fenn> well 100+V in splashy electrolyte needs some kind of safety mechanism 21:31 < kanzure> so I think he wants it to turn off when the lid is open 21:31 < kanzure> a switch seems perfect for this 21:31 < fenn> just use a microswitch 21:32 < kanzure> is that a particular type of switch? 21:32 < fenn> it's found in microwaves :P 21:32 < fenn> http://www.darkravenwind.com/cdvision/images/microswitch.gif 21:33 < kanzure> yep, that's exactly what he should use 21:33 < kanzure> (09:33:49 PM) Tito: oh, the other requirement is that it's waterproof 21:34 < fenn> not gonna happen with a hobbyist budget 21:34 < fenn> use an isolation transformer in your power supply 21:34 < kanzure> a what? 21:34 < fenn> use a GFCI too if you're really paranoid 21:35 < fenn> um.. back to basics. electricity is a potential difference between two points. mains current uses the earth as one of the points 21:35 < fenn> s/current/voltage 21:35 < fenn> if you run AC through a transformer the two ends of the wire coming out of the transformer are the two points 21:36 < fenn> so if you touch the wire and the earth you wont get shocked (theoretically) 21:36 -!- tito3 [n=tito@c-76-105-63-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:36 < kanzure> ah, I didn't know it was a basic device 21:36 < fenn> some transformers connect part of the wire to earth (ground) 21:36 < tito3> hey everybody 21:36 < fenn> hi tito 21:36 < kanzure> tito3: so fenn was suggesting that waterproof might not happen for low-budget 21:37 < tito3> very low budget 21:37 < tito3> that's the appeal of a magnet connector 21:37 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/last_ten_minutes 21:39 < tito3> i've read that nib magnets are coated in nickel 21:39 < tito3> and the nickel conducts electricity just fine 21:40 < fenn> does nickel corrode when being splashed with salt water and having current run through it? 21:40 < tito3> definitely 21:40 < tito3> the concern for waterproof is not necessarily during regular use 21:40 < tito3> but when the gel box gets washed out, etc 21:41 < kanzure> hm 21:41 -!- tito3 [n=tito@c-76-105-63-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 21:41 < kanzure> another idea is to use a velcroe patch that would snap on underneath 21:41 < kanzure> blah, fine, go away 21:41 < kanzure> he probably closed a tab 21:41 -!- tito3 [n=tito@c-76-105-63-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:41 < kanzure> another idea is to use a velcroe patch that would snap on underneath, or one of those metal snaps trinckets 21:42 < kanzure> and it would go from the top of the lid (nearest to the front) to underneath the box (if it is on a stand) 21:42 < kanzure> though that would make for awkward maintenance 21:42 < tito3> most current gel boxes use banana plugs 21:43 < tito3> my problem with those is that you have to think too much about them 21:43 < tito3> lining them up, etc 21:44 < kanzure> so it has to survive getting washed out, how does the rest of the electronics survive that? 21:44 < kanzure> *do 21:44 < tito3> there are no electronics 21:44 < tito3> platinum probes 21:44 < kanzure> the power supply is totally separate? 21:44 < tito3> yep 21:45 < tito3> ok, so you haven't done gel electrophoresis? 21:45 < kanzure> yes, I have. 21:45 < kanzure> I thought you were making an integrated gel box though 21:45 < kanzure> and thus why everyone was talking about a power supply at the same time :/ 21:45 < fenn> disassembly for cleaning is good either way 21:46 < tito3> nope, I talked with philip 21:46 < tito3> the power supply is simply to lower the cost from $100 21:46 < tito3> but the gel box does have major integration -- putting the illuminator with the chamber 21:46 < tito3> usually you'd have to take your gel out of the chamber and place it in an illuminator 21:46 < kanzure> right 21:46 < fenn> you can just use UV LED's now right? 21:47 < kanzure> wait, so the gel box imager / transilluminator work is now being integrated? 21:47 < tito3> that was the original idea 21:47 < tito3> integrate a gel box + illuminator 21:47 < tito3> and redesign a few thing to be nicer 21:47 < tito3> re: UV LEDs 21:47 < tito3> we are planning to use blue light instead, plus filters 21:48 < fenn> hm. i've never used SYBR* stains, are they visible or UV? 21:48 < tito3> visible 21:48 < kanzure> visible 21:48 < kanzure> fenn: really? 21:48 < fenn> academic labs are weird 21:49 < tito3> academic labs are full of shit 21:49 < fenn> i had to go through a whole rigamarole just to try out the non-P32 labeling kit (nobody had ever used one) 21:49 < tito3> anyway, so the nickel coating on the magnets is the biggest concern 21:50 < kanzure> do you have access to material science handbooks to look up nickel interactions and such? 21:50 < tito3> besides that, magnets sound like the best option 21:50 -!- tito3 [n=tito@c-76-105-63-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 21:50 < fenn> interactions? 21:50 < kanzure> salt water degradation rate with nickel 21:50 -!- tito0 [n=tito@c-76-105-63-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:50 < kanzure> I don't think that's just stoich, maybe I'm wrong 21:51 < fenn> corrosion rate is proportional to current 21:51 < kanzure> oh. 21:53 < fenn> tito0: i can't see anything on your website in my browser (konqueror) 21:54 < fenn> or dillo either 21:55 < fenn> since it's just text and images i wonder why you didnt use html 21:56 < fenn> n/m it is html.. i wonder why it doesnt work 21:58 < tito0> it uses a nonstandard font of my handwriting 22:00 < tito0> other opinions on magnetic connectors? 22:05 < fenn> if i delete class="wp-caption-text" it works ok 22:06 < fenn> i think you should use a switch.. they're inexpensive and designed to do what you want 22:07 < ybit> where did the 'no philosphy' philosophy come from? what convo was this 22:07 < fenn> ybit: from endless useless philosophy conversations and the resulting lack of any result 22:07 < tito0> ok, will a switch get corroded with water? 22:07 < kanzure> disassembly for washing 22:08 < fenn> if it gets water inside it, yes 22:08 < kanzure> how about a snap on/off or in/out mechanism? 22:08 < kanzure> so that when you want to wash the part that has the switch in it, just take out the switch 22:08 < fenn> i've seen switches in a housing with a little rod poking out that has an o-ring around it, probably overkill for this though 22:09 < fenn> wrapping it in saran wrap is probably good enough 22:09 -!- tito0 [n=tito@c-76-105-63-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 22:10 -!- tito0 [n=tito@c-76-105-63-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:13 < ybit> austin fablab? hmm, i thought it was a tech shop.. 22:14 < kanzure> it was going to become the austin techshop, but that tanked 22:14 < kanzure> and now it's not really a fablab in the gershenfeld/mit sense 22:14 < kanzure> but les wants to call it something stupid :p 22:14 < kanzure> and 'fab lab' happens to be better imo. 22:14 < ybit> heh, so what's missing? 22:14 < ybit> kind of sounds misleading 22:14 < kanzure> well the idea is to eventually do a diff compare on the fablab and techshop inventories, but there's some "big pieces of equipment" that are missing, like a sufficiently multi-axis cnc machine, a plasma cutter, metal lathe, .. 22:15 < kanzure> it is misleading, it's true 22:15 < kanzure> I guess 'fab lab' is the closest thing though to describe it 22:15 < kanzure> (he wants to call it "myfab.org") 22:16 < ybit> perhaps of interest, the only things lacking in blender which prevents it from being like AutoCAD: implicit surfaces with csg ops and NURBS patches 22:16 < ybit> that's it 22:16 < kanzure> eh 22:16 < kanzure> parametrics? 22:16 < ybit> right 22:17 < kanzure> what? 22:17 < kanzure> is that what NURBS is? 22:17 < fenn> what does les want to call it? 22:17 < kanzure> fenn: myfab.org 22:17 < kanzure> I told him I'd think of something better.. 22:17 < fenn> les'sfab.org 22:18 < kanzure> "Non-uniform rational B-spline (NURBS) is a mathematical model commonly used in computer graphics for generating and representing curves and surfaces." 22:18 < ybit> kanzure: yes 22:18 < ybit> "NURBS, Non-Uniform Rational B-Splines, are mathematical representations of 3-D geometry that can accurately describe any shape from a simple 2-D line, circle, arc, or curve to the most complex 3-D organic free-form surface or solid. Because of their flexibility and accuracy, NURBS models can be used in any process from illustration and animation to manufacturing." 22:18 < fenn> foolbox.org 22:18 < kanzure> fenn: isn't that a wm? 22:18 < fenn> foolbox? looks fairly austere in the noosphere 22:18 < fenn> uh, i mean nobody is using that name yet 22:19 < kanzure> superfab.org <-- bryan is bad at naming things 22:19 < fenn> suprfab.org 22:19 < kanzure> fabuntu still works for me. but it's kinda squatted 22:19 < fenn> yeah that's so lame 22:19 < kanzure> the squatting is lame? 22:19 < fenn> yes 22:20 < kanzure> (I know I asked that once before, but whatever) 22:20 < kanzure> maybe we can ask nicely. 22:20 < fenn> ybit: blender does nurbs already, tons of them 22:21 < kanzure> I can't believe blender doesn't have csg ops 22:21 < fenn> it's lacking parametric dimensioning (or any dimensioning really) 22:21 < kanzure> that sounds wrong 22:21 < fenn> it has mesh CSG 22:21 < kanzure> that's just point substraction 22:21 < kanzure> yeah 22:21 < fenn> and mesh primitives, i dont really see the difference 22:21 < kanzure> is that not enough? 22:21 < fenn> if you have feature based CAM it's enough 22:21 < fenn> that's sort of "black magic" though 22:21 < kanzure> huh? 22:21 < kanzure> feature manufacturing? 22:21 < fenn> >$10k black magic 22:22 < fenn> feature recognition 22:22 < kanzure> "it's a knob! do something special because it's a knob" sorta thingy? 22:22 < fenn> like "this looks like a cylindrical hole, i'll drill it" 22:22 < kanzure> ooOooo. (an ooh of awe) 22:22 < kanzure> that sounds like CSG could work there too, 22:22 < ybit> fenn: with nurbs patches you build an object out of planier 'patches' similar to meshes 22:22 < kanzure> if you wanted to be lame make it out of a GA for an optimal number of different manufacturing techniques to make the same internal model 22:23 < fenn> if you keep track of the implicit geometry (cylinder or whatever) it's much easier to recognize a cylinder :P 22:23 < kanzure> and then whichever one matches the best (or, perfectly), is the one that has the list of manufacturing techniques- like drilling 22:23 < kanzure> but maybe there's an analytical way to do it 22:23 < fenn> ybit: maybe i dont understand what's missing, but i'm pretty sure blender has NURBS patches 22:24 < kanzure> hm, les and I were talking about how clean the blender api may or may not be 22:24 < kanzure> or maybe that was with dave 22:24 < kanzure> gah, why am I talking to all of you separately 22:24 < kanzure> http://www.blender.org/documentation/242PythonDoc/index.html 22:24 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/blender-nurbs.png 22:24 < kanzure> not found 22:24 < fenn> er, try again 22:25 < kanzure> black magic! 22:26 < fenn> the nurbs sphere could become just about any shape, since you can add or remove control points 22:28 < ybit> www.opennurbs.com 22:29 < fenn> i remember something not cool about that 22:29 < fenn> like you had to use rhino or something 22:30 -!- tito0 [n=tito@c-76-105-63-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 22:30 < fenn> it seems to be mainly for importing/exporting rhino files 22:30 < kanzure> so I wonder where in blender you'd even begin to put dimensioning information. 22:31 < kanzure> visual annotation is something to consider later. for the moment, python/api-accessible dimensioning tools and information on the objects would be fine 22:31 < fenn> you mean where in the UI? 22:31 < kanzure> and then a popup wizard demanding you insert dimensions (solidworks does this) (kind of annoying, but you get used to expecting it to happen) 22:31 < kanzure> nope, 22:31 < kanzure> I mean where in blender's object data model. 22:31 < fenn> there is no "file format" really, .blend is just a memory dump 22:32 < kanzure> hrm. 22:32 < kanzure> is blender OOPerized, or is it a giant version 2.0 of nethack? 22:32 < fenn> i dont know.. it's mostly C 22:32 < kanzure> sounds dangerous 22:32 < kanzure> structs I guess 22:32 < fenn> i think there have been numerous efforts to "clean up" the code, probably making it more OOP-ish 22:33 < kanzure> http://www.blender.org/development/architecture/ 22:33 < fenn> most of C++ is glorified function pointers 22:34 < kanzure> " 22:34 < kanzure> It has a strictly organised 'Data Oriented' structure, almost like a database, but with some Object Oriented aspects in it. It was entirely written in plain C. In designing Blender, an attempt was made to define structures as uniformly as possible, for all the possible 3D representations and for all the universal tools that perform data(base) work." 22:34 < kanzure> " 22:34 < kanzure> Although some jokingly called Blender a 'struct visualizer', the name is actually quite accurate. During the first month's of Blender's development, we did little but devise structures and write include files. During the years that followed, mostly tools and visualisation methods were worked out." 22:34 < kanzure> well at least that sounds promising 22:35 < ybit> i wonder why there hasn't been anything on /. digg or reddit on the ES OS developed by google 22:35 < fenn> what's the fuss about ES? 22:36 < ybit> there isn't a fuss, i'm wondering why there isn't one :P 22:36 < ybit> it's an actual google os that has always been rumored about 22:36 < fenn> "lets make an entire operating system in java! whee" 22:36 < ybit> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Es_(operating_system) 22:36 < fenn> er s/java/javascript/ 22:36 < fenn> and then call it ECMAScript to confuse people 22:36 < ybit> hehe 22:37 < ybit> actually it's written mostly in c++ 22:37 < ybit> http://code.google.com/p/es-operating-system/wiki/XV_Semana_Informatica 22:37 < ybit> ^ description of the os 22:37 < fenn> bleh 22:38 < fenn> can i have a 2 sentence summary? 22:38 < kanzure> it's starting to look like adding a list of parametric definitions (strings?) would be ok, just throw that in to the 'object' thingy. And then just have a tool to hook into check it each time a modification is made (a callback) (or we can go edit all of the functions and cry) 22:39 < fenn> kanzure: have you looked at heekscad yet? 22:39 < kanzure> well, not codewise and I haven't downloaded it 22:39 < kanzure> I guess I should go do that now, while I'm avoiding homework 22:39 < fenn> http://code.google.com/p/heekscad/wiki/CompilingForDebian 22:40 < kanzure> http://fennetic.net/pub/captainslog/compile_heekscad 22:40 < kanzure> oh 22:40 < fenn> oh crap is that still public? 22:40 < fenn> damn symlinks :) 22:41 < kanzure> seems to not be anything private 22:41 < kanzure> oh, you posted that 22:41 < kanzure> that's why it looks so familiar. 22:42 < fenn> yes, i was annoyed by http://code.google.com/p/heekscad/wiki/CompilingForUbuntu 22:42 < fenn> dan is a windows user 22:43 < kanzure> holy crap 22:44 < kanzure> I wonder how much trouble he went to when coming up with that 22:46 < fenn> anyway, my point is that opencascade is designed for CAD already, and blender is not, and multiple past attempts at CAD-izing blender have failed, so why mess with blender when there are real FOSS cad programs being developed 22:46 < ybit> anyone tried salome? 22:46 < kanzure> I think I almost tried salome once :) 22:46 < fenn> rawr try it out and tell us 22:46 < kanzure> something about a huge download 22:46 < kanzure> larger than openfoam 22:47 < kanzure> http://www.salome-platform.org/download/dl414/ 22:47 < kanzure> yep, 1 GB 22:47 < kanzure> or 96 MB of sources 22:47 < fenn> i bet they just package the whole opencascade build.. 22:47 < fenn> i'm amazed that debian got libopencascade down to 27MB 22:47 < fenn> it needs like 2GB disk space to compile 22:48 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/captainslog/compile_freecad 22:48 < fenn> pain in the ass 22:49 < fenn> #make sure you have at least 7GB available, maybe more 22:49 < fenn> time make 22:49 < fenn> #real 568m35.068s 22:50 < kanzure> weird, in heekscad drawing a sketch doesn't show up until you are done drawing your lines. 22:50 < kanzure> which is kind of hard to do when you don't know where your last point was 22:50 < fenn> if you're going to try salome check opennovation.org first, that's the guy who packages things for debian (he seems to do a good job) 22:50 < fenn> the lines are black 22:50 < kanzure> only once I click "finish drawing" 22:50 < kanzure> or "finish sketch" 22:50 < fenn> uh, maybe they're white 22:50 < fenn> i use a gray background 22:51 -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-91-63.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:51 < kanzure> ah, I was drawing on a surface 22:51 < fenn> ybit: better yet, download caelinux.com and boot the DVD 22:51 < gene> hello 22:51 < kanzure> ok, just extruded a sketch in heekscad 22:52 < kanzure> what's missing here? 22:52 < fenn> what's missing what? 22:52 < gene> opensource cad? 22:53 < kanzure> it's conceivable that I don't know what features to be looking for 22:53 < fenn> oh, what's missing from "fully functional cad program"? 22:53 < kanzure> yes 22:53 < kanzure> hm, scripting? 22:53 < ybit> fenn: woah, caelinux is pretty neat 22:53 < kanzure> ybit: :) 22:54 < kanzure> I was going to install that today, but the guy who was going to do it crapped out (giving somebody something to do) 22:54 < fenn> it needs parametric dimensioning, better support for grouping/modifying objects and feature trees, instantiation, and the sketcher sucks 22:54 < kanzure> wait, have I not used parametric dimensioning before? 22:54 < fenn> better snap-to UI (the functionality is there, under "selection filter" and "digitizing" but it is too hard to use in practice) 22:54 < kanzure> because I just dimensioned a few edges ok, 22:54 < kanzure> does it not scale or something? 22:55 < fenn> eh? 22:55 < fenn> hang on lemme svn up 22:55 < kanzure> I downloaded this version a few days ago and just didn't compile 22:55 < fenn> he's surprisingly fast at implementing feature requests 22:56 < fenn> i wish pythonizer.org would release his source 22:57 < fenn> six years and nothing happened, why not release it? 22:57 < ybit> there's something very similar to pythonizer for ruby 22:57 < kanzure> wonder if it does some BNF grammar comparison trick or something 22:57 < ybit> http://www.goto.info.waseda.ac.jp/~fukusima/ruby/python-e.html 22:58 < ybit> it isn't up-to-date though 22:58 < fenn> bah i dont want to call python from ruby, i want to call c++ from python 22:59 < ybit> (off-topic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAwR6w2TgxY ) 23:04 * fenn braces for philosophizing 23:08 * kanzure is hooked on heekscad 23:09 < fenn> opencascade imports STEP which means it's automatically compatible with all "professional" cad programs 23:09 < fenn> and IGES 23:10 < fenn> and it's Free! 23:10 < fenn> i wish someone had told me two years ago 23:13 < kanzure> so, I've never come across a really awesome way to do 3D point/object/face selection 23:13 < kanzure> I looked into it many years ago for my 3D video game map editors and so on 23:13 < kanzure> I'm sure there's some really fancy trig that you can make up 23:14 < fenn> hilight the edge as you mouse over, click to select 23:14 < fenn> center points for faces 23:14 < fenn> anywhere else selects the object 23:15 < fenn> right now you have to click exactly on the edge pixel 23:15 < kanzure> hm, might as well submit a bug about not being able to select faces to draw on 23:15 < fenn> i think edges could be fatter fwiw 23:15 < kanzure> although it's not a big deal 23:15 < fenn> you can select faces 23:15 < fenn> but i dont think you can draw on them 23:15 < kanzure> can't seem to draw on them (which again doesn't matter) 23:15 < fenn> i think it does matter 23:15 < kanzure> just drag your structure over to the right location and do a subtraction 23:16 < fenn> you should be able to go back and edit the sketch to change the final object 23:17 < kanzure> ack, error on taking the "common" between a thin cylinder and some weird extruded combined sketch. no particular error, just frozen. 23:17 < fenn> jeez either my computer is dirt slow or yours is really fast (still compiling heekscad) 23:17 < fenn> combined sketch was funky last i tried it 23:19 < kanzure> quadcore 2.6 GHz 4 GB RAM 2 TB hdd. 23:19 * kanzure hears a "fuck you" coming on. 23:20 < fenn> meh 23:20 < fenn> where's my internetified distcc 23:21 < fenn> + ccache 23:21 < kanzure> distcc? 23:21 < fenn> == gentoo with the convenience of debian 23:21 < fenn> distributed compiler and compiler cache 23:21 < kanzure> heh 23:21 < fenn> so you hash the src and if it has been compiled somewhere already you just download the binary 23:21 < fenn> if it hasnt been compiled already you farm it out 23:22 < fenn> 9m37.466s i shouldnt whine i guess 23:22 < fenn> dunno why it's segfaulting now though 23:23 < kanzure> are you using that pipe monitor trick from linux magazine that I linked to a few days ago? 23:23 < kanzure> or is there some other timing mechanism that I am unaware of? 23:23 < kanzure> that pipe trick was for percent complete / size of pipe transfers within the shell, so nevermind on that 23:24 < fenn> dying at clock_gettime(CLOCK_MONOTONIC, {1346750, 278695719}) 23:25 < fenn> type this at a terminal 23:25 < fenn> time sleep 1 23:25 < kanzure> hm, selecting two different sketches, and moving them around simultaneously, and clicking around a lot (as if you're trying to submerge one just below the face of the other so that you can subtract), makes it segfault. These segfaults are very nondescriptive. 23:26 < fenn> yeah that's the problem with C++ 23:26 < fenn> (a problem) 23:26 < fenn> i think you're supposed to use gdb to figure out what's going on; i never got the hang of it though 23:38 < gene> WARNING! YOUR AREA IS UNDER A LEVEL 2 FALLING SPACE DEBRIS ALERT! PLEASE PROCEED TO THE NEAREST IMPACT SHELTER IMMEDIATELY! 23:38 < gene> http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/021609dnmetdebris.1c083e1f.html 23:38 * fenn hides under the bed 23:39 < gene> THIS ALERT IS NOT APPLICABLE TO ALL CITIZENS OF GEOFRONT 3B 23:39 < gene> just kidding 23:39 < gene> watch for space debris though 23:39 < gene> I hear they look quite cool 23:40 < fenn> and you get a free wish 23:40 < fenn> no sacrificing of goats necessary 23:41 < gene> maybe even a fuel tank with fuel in it! 23:41 < gene> Kanzure I need to send you some cool pics of what a falling o'neill cylinder might look like 23:44 < fenn> oh i saw that on gundam 23:44 < gene> so that's where that is from 23:44 < gene> never seen gundam 23:45 < gene> maybe just a couple frame of gundam and SD gundam but that's it 23:45 < gene> ugh 23:45 < gene> SD gundam 23:46 < kanzure> hm, maybe I'll work on a part fitting (geometric) algorithm for heekscad 23:46 < kanzure> I have this large repository of lego parts. 23:46 < kanzure> in .stp 23:47 < fenn> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6_Tk5ySAIM <- colony drop 23:47 < kanzure> hm, I have model parts for a laser? 23:49 < fenn> realistically it would splash like a water balloon though 23:49 < fenn> the nuclear bomb-ish flash is correct 23:50 < fenn> cool painting http://miotd.com/images/20080620.jpg 23:56 < gene> why does it still stand up? 23:56 < gene> I'd expect a falling colony to do a lot more damage 23:56 < gene> now let's see how high is L1 23:58 < gene> and how high much a space colony weighs 23:58 < fenn> hm. is an elliptical orbit faster at perigee than a circular low orbit? 23:58 < fenn> anyway figure mach 30 as a minimum velocity 23:59 < fenn> it would have to be faster but i dont know how to calculate how much faster since the gravity drops off with height