--- Day changed Mon Mar 02 2009
00:00 < Gene> miraculin lettuce
00:00 < Gene> I WANT SOMe
00:02 < Gene> or some bacteria that produces a floatant and can live in the chlorinated environment of a fountain
00:02 < kanzure> Gene: did you see the solutions for actuation in sharpie mf?
00:07 < Gene> hold on
00:07 < Gene> I
00:08 < Gene> adobe just got fixed
00:09 < Gene> no
00:09 < Gene> didn't
00:14 < Gene> shit, that paper on mf auto cfd is for low reynold #s
00:15 < Gene> ie at scales where water behaves like syrup
00:20 < kanzure> auto cfd?
00:20 < kanzure> you mean the one about not having to solve nasty PDEs?
00:23 < Gene> yeah
00:25 < kanzure> that's not too much of a problem. it's still possible to do simulations on millimeter scale systems.
00:25 < kanzure> (using nasty equations)
01:33 < Gene> well Kanzure I tis easier just to do the math
01:34 < Gene> *it is
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08:00 < fenn> heh that guy steve langford resells harbor freight crap on his website at a markup
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09:09 < kanzure> hm, I should probably get around to doing a writeup of my sharpie experiments to send off to diybio.
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09:14 < kanzure> fenn: any brilliant ideas on actuation in my mf sharpie devices?
09:15 < kanzure> thermal gradients? blowing air through a straw? gravity-only? pneumatic? laser-based (where am I going to get that type of laser anyway?)?
09:53 < kanzure> fennetic.net seems to be down.
09:55 < Gene> electricity
09:56 < Gene> see water going uphill in my bookmarks
09:56 < kanzure> I guess you could add salt to the water, and then just attach some wires at the input, and wires at the output
09:56 < Gene> NO
09:56 < Gene> that's not how it works
09:56 < kanzure> no?
09:56 < kanzure> hrm
09:56 < Gene> it could work that way though
09:58 < kanzure> (too bad you can't detect a single nucleotide (0.33 nm diameter sphere, roughly) with a laser pointing at a 0.1 mm bubble)
09:58 < kanzure> http://nanoarchitecture.net/article/all-terrain-fluids-move-uphill
09:58 < Gene> dang
09:58 < kanzure> 401 unauthorized
09:59 < Gene> yeah it's broken
09:59 < Gene> damn
09:59 < Gene> had a nice way for moving fluid in any direction
09:59 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://nanoarchitecture.net/article/all-terrain-fluids-move-uphill
09:59 < kanzure> nope, no good.
10:01 < Gene> damn
10:01 < Gene> look up droplet microfluidics
10:02 < kanzure> I have been.
10:09 < ybit> google cache: http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:9PhDDUJXzy4J:nanoarchitecture.net/article/%3Fc%3DNEMS--MEMS+http://nanoarchitecture.net/article/all-terrain-fluids-move-uphill&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a
10:09 < ybit> not sure how much of it you wanted, didn't really look around
10:09 < ybit> it's more than a 401 though :)
10:11 < Gene> there we go that's what I'm talking about
10:13 < kanzure> the paper: http://www.rsc.org/Publishing/Journals/LC/article.asp?doi=b801516c
10:13 < kanzure> video: http://media.rsc.org/ChemistryWorld/Wheeler_ATDA_movie_1_75_Mb.mov
10:13 < kanzure> http://www.rsc.org/Publishing/ChemTech/Volume/2008/05/uphill_droplets.asp
10:13 < kanzure> hm, electrodes. meh.
10:36 < fenn> i dont know what you mean "actuation"
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11:10 < kanzure> sometimes the bubbles just sit there.
11:25 < katsmeow-afk> hmm,, http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Liquid%20Film%20Motor.pdf seems to imply a Tesla platter array with electrical fields on the platters could make a motor possible, but there's no mention of losses in the pdf
11:25 < kanzure> are you actually reading through my paper archive? :)
11:26  * katsmeow-afk looks innocent
11:26 < kanzure> no, it's a good thing :)
11:26 < kanzure> btw, I posted to diybio and OM re: sharpie microfluidics for anyone interested.
11:26 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/msg/1197606e3c3dc439
11:26 < katsmeow-afk> i figure you gave me the url for a reason :-)
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11:27 < katsmeow-afk> the paper smells a lil like mhd , but it's thin film, which made me think of the tesla platters
11:28 < kanzure> btw, it's a recent paper
11:28 < katsmeow-afk> if the rotation is centeres just off the platters, between platters, then one side of the swirl will be pushing against the space tween the platters
11:28 < kanzure> just got on slashdot, you might find some good comments in there
11:29 < katsmeow-afk> you may have slashdotted yourself on purpose?
11:29 < kanzure> what?
11:29 < kanzure> well, it's happened before (with makezine)
11:29 < kanzure> but no
11:29 < kanzure> the paper is hosted on arxiv or something
11:29 < katsmeow-afk> ah, k
11:30 < kanzure> oops, I'm sorry, this is the recent paper: DNA_sequencing#Microfluidic_DNA_sequencing
11:30 < kanzure> erm
11:30 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Liquid%20Film%20Motor%20-%20part%202%20-%20Rotating%20Electrohydrodynamic%20Flow%20in%20a%20Suspended%20Liquid%20Film.pdf
11:30 < kanzure> that's the one that has recently been on slashdot.
11:36 < kanzure> say.. what if we just grew algae in bubbles?
11:36 < katsmeow-afk> ok with me :-)
11:36 < kanzure> and then the doubling time would be used so that we know that after a certain point, there should be a big ratio of algae to water within the bubble,
11:37 < kanzure> which counts as 'concentrated'.
11:37 < kanzure> (but then what about all this "big bulk algae growth" shit and the many acres of land we've bought? ugh)
11:37 < katsmeow-afk> but you don't know that, based only on time
11:37 < kanzure> true.
11:37 < kanzure> LEDs? :)
11:37 < kanzure> OD680 or something.
11:37 < katsmeow-afk> and food and waste removal,, as well as the actual light distribution
11:38 < kanzure> blah
11:38 < kanzure> hrm.
11:38 < katsmeow-afk> a lot of devices have been built to make alge do what we want, for hydrogen or sugar production, many didn't work
11:39 < kanzure> our problem is filtering.
11:39 < katsmeow-afk> like, how deep did light penetrate, and did we kill the stuff when mixing it, etc
11:39 < kanzure> so we're fabricating some filters at the moment.
11:39 < kanzure> but growing it in spatially confined regions might be quicker.. need to test it I guess.
11:40  * kanzure goes back to his physics lab homework. 
11:40 < kanzure> how does error propagation work? if I have a time and a plus/minus error (standard deviation), how do I propagate that into the calculation of velocity?
11:41  * katsmeow-afk looks clueless
11:46 < kanzure> for instance: delta t = 0.423 +- .003, distance = 7.6 +- .2 cm, and apparently velocity from this is supposed to be 18.0 +- .6 cm/sec, but the max I'm able to find is 7.8/.420 which is 18.570, how is it +- .6 ?? am I doing something wrong?
11:46  * katsmeow-afk looks *seriously* clueless
11:47 < fenn> multiply the error percentage
11:47 < kanzure> what?
11:48 < fenn> man wikipedia is so bad for math explanations
11:50 < fenn> i get 1.8 +- .06 cm/s
11:50 < fenn> er, sorry add the error percentages
11:51 < kanzure> 18.6 > 18.570, where 18.570 is 7.8/.420 (the biggest value that is possible within those error ranges)
11:52 < fenn> yes i understand
11:52 < kanzure> so what percentages are present here?
11:52 < fenn> oh shoot i moved the decimal place
11:53 < fenn> its actually 17.966903 +- 0.59786
11:54 < kanzure> explanation please :(
11:54 < fenn> i think this is just rounding errors
11:55 < fenn> 18.564763 vs 18.571429
11:55 < kanzure> is my method of finding the maximum ratio (i.e., 18.570) good for propagation of uncertainty into velocity?
11:55 < kanzure> maximum ratio would set the upper limit, and the minimum would set the lower value.
11:55 < kanzure> and then how would I find the base value? i.e., 18.0 in this case?
11:55 < kanzure> just whatever's in common I guess?
11:57 < kanzure> because I'm actually doing a calculation where distance=127 mm, and delta time is 0.4759 +- 0.046959 sec, so I get 242.90 and 296.08 m/sec, so I need to somehow represent this.
11:57 < kanzure> I guess it's 269.49 +- 26.590
12:01 < fenn> why didnt you use the real numbers the first time
12:01 < kanzure> because the first time I had feedback from the lab manual book
12:02 < fenn> i think the lab manual did it wrong (0.2/.003)
12:03  * fenn squints at his numbers
12:04 < fenn> i should mention that today is probably not my best math performance ever
12:04 < kanzure> why's that?
12:05 < fenn> excess blah
12:05 < fenn> what's uncertainty on distance?
12:05 < fenn> and what's the required precision? or do they just want the "right answer"
12:06 < kanzure> well, it was recorded on a mm scale
12:06 < kanzure> the "right answer"
12:06 < kanzure> (the right method)
12:06 < fenn> bah
12:06 < fenn> chicken slop
12:06 < fenn> anyway, add together the absolute uncertainty
12:06 < fenn> haha
12:07 < fenn> how do you get +- .046959 anyway? where's that number from
12:08 < fenn> i guess mm measurement would be +- 0.5mm (realistically) or +- 0.1 (according to "the rules")
12:10 < kanzure> the +- 0.046959 is calculated by the standard deviation of 5 different delta t values.
12:10 < fenn> bah
12:11 < kanzure> ?
12:12 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/spazzing_out.txt just keeping the record straight.
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12:12 < kanzure> oh shit
12:13 < fenn> i wouldnt call homework "spazzing out"
12:13 < kanzure> which one is homework?
12:13 < fenn> looks like the cuttlefish are loose again
12:13 < kanzure> none of those are homework related.
12:13 < fenn> ( http://xkcd.com/520/ )
12:14  * fenn wonders if it's bedtime yet
12:20 < fenn> btw, for your education, the second "bah" was because finding the standard deviation doesn't mean you know the uncertainty
12:21 < fenn> it won't uncover periodic or systematic error, for example, or asymmetrical errors
12:21 < kanzure> so I'm being lied to
12:21 < fenn> yes of course
12:21 < fenn> representing uncertainty with +- is simplistic too, but it gets the job done
12:22 < fenn> if you want to go nuts with statistics, check out openturns (linked by utopiah the other day)
12:22 < kanzure> and R. I need to get around to acting like I care about R.
12:28 < fenn> there ought to be a "physics for engineers" class
12:28 < kanzure> that's what I'm in.
12:28 < fenn> then why are they wanting the "right" answer rather than the satisfactory answer
12:29 < fenn> i mean, in engineering (and in experimental physics) there's a certain required egree of precision for a measurement
12:29 < fenn> if you dont have it, the measurements are no good
12:30 < fenn> but they're teaching you that it's ok to just measure whatever as long as you quantify the error
12:31 < fenn> i guess it boils down to the fact that you're not ever going to do anything with that measurement
12:31 < fenn> except write it in a book somewhere
12:31 < kanzure> so if I was to square the velocity (with the +- blah), do I use the same method? add the min and max, divide by 2, and then the "uncertainty" is the difference (max-min)
12:32 < fenn> uh, i know there are rules for this somewhere
12:32 < fenn> it seems like you'd square the uncertainty
12:33 < kanzure> so if I had 224.31 +- 2.83 mm/sec,
12:33 < fenn> i dont know what you mean min and max over two
12:33 < kanzure> then that would be 0.0503 mm +- 8 mm/sec
12:33 < kanzure> which is stupid
12:33 < kanzure> oh, wait, nevermind
12:33 < fenn> if one out of a zillion you get a bad value, should that count toward the uncertainty?
12:33 < kanzure> no clue?
12:33 < kanzure> I'm not actually learning anything here
12:34 < fenn> heh
12:34 < kanzure> just trying to not get kicked out of school
12:34 < fenn> it all makes a bit more sense if you graph the measurements
12:34 < fenn> presumably you measured distance and time once for each ball drop or whatever it was
12:35 < fenn> did you understand what i mean add the error percentages?
12:35 < kanzure> no,
12:35 < kanzure> there are no percentages here
12:36 < fenn> 0.046959/0.4759 is 9.8674091% uncertainty
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12:37 < fenn> and 0.2/127 is 0.1574803%
12:38 < fenn> so your final uncertainty is 10.024889%
12:38 < fenn> er.. i just made up 0.2
12:39 < fenn> anyway, now you do 127/0.4759 = 266.86279
12:40 < fenn> 266.86279 * 10.025% = 26.752698 mm/s uncertainty
12:40 < fenn> make sense?
12:42 < kanzure> 0.4759/127 = 0.003, so .3% uncertainty?
12:42 < fenn> label all your numbers with units
12:42 < kanzure> 0.4759 sec / 127 mm = 0.003, so .3% uncertainty?
12:42 < kanzure> I'm just figuring out how you got 0.157 %
12:42 < fenn> ok now why are you dividing seconds by mm?
12:42 < kanzure> why were you?
12:43 < fenn> i wasn't.. i divided mm by seconds to find velocity
12:43 < kanzure> 0.2/127 <- you made up 0.2, but I bet you were thinking of the 0.4759
12:43 < fenn> and mm by mm to find uncertainty percentage
12:43 < kanzure> oh wait. sorry. wasn't reading the backlog.
12:44 < kanzure> 0.046959 / 0.4759 comes from where?
12:44 < fenn> 0.2 probably should have been 0.5 because of significant digits but i figured you would have written 127.5 if it was halfway
12:44 < fenn> bad me, not doing it the "right" way
12:45 < fenn> .046959 is your standard deviation, which is probably the wrong value to use but meh..
12:46 < fenn> from wikipedia: typically the reported margin of error is about twice the standard deviation
12:47 < kanzure> so on another calculation, I have .56618/.00357 so my uncertainty is 158.59%
12:47 < kanzure> awesome?
12:48 < kanzure> well,
12:48 < kanzure> .00357/.56618, which is 0.6%
12:48 < fenn> ok
12:54 < fenn> units are great, use them as much as possible
12:54 < kanzure> yes.
12:54 < fenn> if the units match up and you get the wrong answer, you probably forgot some units somewhere (angles are units, despite what the frenchies think)
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15:42 < xp_prg> anyone know about devcon?
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20:02 < gene> hahaha Diybio has 666 members, we are true evil now
20:15 < PeerInfinity> no, it means you're the antichrist.  christ is the evil one, and that asshole father of his...
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22:25 < kanzure> (08:27:39 PM) Joseph Jackson: what is your take on the factor e farm?
22:25 < kanzure> (08:27:49 PM) Joseph Jackson: i am considering going out there for a bit
22:44 < kanzure> I wonder why not many people replied to my microfluidics post
22:44 < kanzure> kinda disappointing that more people shitted out their ass about GM food bullshit than talked about microfluidics
22:44 < kanzure> "Rain-X makes a beautiful hydrophobic surface." - Treadwell's suggestion
23:07 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujnq2D4PtvI superman v. darkseid
23:11 < gene> wait a minute? Diybio don't liek GM plants?
23:11 < gene> wtf
23:11 < gene> I love GM plants
23:12 < gene> actually had some of those maroon carrots when they first came out 
23:14 < kanzure> part of the problem is that it is corporate bullshit
23:14 < kanzure> so people get confused
23:14 < kanzure> some hate the companies, others hate biology and want to upload into robots and live forever on the surface of a neutron star,
23:14 < kanzure> others are just fucking idiots
23:23 < kanzure> "
23:23 < kanzure> Some glass adhesives cure in UV light. I know I've bought them in hobby stores. IIRC, these are 1-part adhesives  Also avalilable are 2-part (resin & catalyst) adhesives @ auto parts stores for windshield repairs."
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23:52 < kanzure> http://www.alpineglass.com/shop/detail/2289 Kemxert Ultraviolet Glass Adhesive 1 oz.   $20.95
23:52 < kanzure> blah, $21 for an ounce?
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