--- Day changed Fri Mar 06 2009
00:14 < gene> hey is that pic from your harddrive?
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00:19 < gene> organize your stuff in a 2d not 1d manner
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08:54 < kanzure> "
08:54 < kanzure> I was actually thinking about this on the train this morning, and I was wondering if you could somehow use a human hair to make a really thin DIY microfluidics channel- like stretch it over the glass and then run the sharpie over it? But I guess the ink would probably run all around it. Maybe you could figure out some other way...paint a thin film of something over it and then pull it out?"
08:54 < kanzure> 80 µm — average width of human hair (ranges from 18 to 180 µm)
08:55 < kanzure> "
08:55 < kanzure> 10 µm — transistor width of the Intel 4004, the world's first commercial microprocessor"
08:56 < kanzure> gah, 10 micrometers != 18 micrometers.
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09:11 < kanzure> I'll go test hair+sharpie microfluidics on the microscope in about an hour
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12:48 < kanzure> hah hah hah
12:48 < kanzure> human hair doesn't work, even if you stretch it out with alligator clamps and hang it over the glass slide on which you are drawing
12:48 < kanzure> however, fingernails and paper clips do.
12:49 < fenn> fingernails and paperclips eh
12:49 < kanzure> yes. clear, smooth channels.
12:49 < kanzure> especially on the edge of a paper clip. It's about the same size as the hairs were.
12:50 < kanzure> the problem with hair was vibration, so I'd get not only one or two channels, but also something that looks like the "veins" from a leaf
12:50 < kanzure> and of course, the sharpie ink was actually being attracted to the individual hair fibers, soo.
12:51 < kanzure> there's no way that you're going to get micrometer accuracy on *both* a top and bottom slide though
12:51 < kanzure> unless you have a microscope and maybe a grid?
12:51 < fenn> or a really sharp pencil
12:52 < kanzure> yes.
12:56 < kanzure> erm, mechanical pencil much?
12:56 < fenn> what?
12:57 < kanzure> mechanical pencils tend to be better at fine patterns than sharp pencils
12:57 < fenn> they draw at about the width of the lead
12:57 < fenn> 0.5mm is nowhere near a 0.001mm
12:59 < kanzure> hm, I need to go back and double check the paperclip
13:01 < kanzure> the paperclip has a greater diameter than a typical mechanical pencil, but only a tiny portion of the edge was being used.
13:02 < fenn> any ideas on the micro CNC actuators?
13:02 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/macgyver_multitool.jpg
13:02 < kanzure> no. I once looked into pieco piezo actuators and they were "call to see prices" expensive.
13:02 < kanzure> but that was pico of course
13:02 < kanzure> *pico
13:03 < fenn> most non-consumer stuff will have RFQ
13:10 < kanzure> you know, I was adjusting the microscope by hand today with the knobs for xyz control
13:10 < kanzure> why couldn't that work?
13:11 < kanzure> besides the microscope control mechanism being ridiculously expensive (probably)
13:11 < fenn> more or less
13:11 < fenn> though microscopes aren't that expensive really
13:11 < fenn> and you get a microscope in the deal
13:19 < wrldpc> free microscopes? o.O
13:21 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFoC-uxRqCg <-- gained 313,000 views since I last saw it.
13:21 < kanzure> (nano song)
13:25 < kanzure> http://nanosong.com/
13:30 < fenn> that is pretty good
13:30 < fenn> production value!
13:30 < fenn> and grey goo!
13:38 < kanzure> yay it works on tape.
13:38 < kanzure> which is easier to acquire than glass.
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15:36 < xp_prg> kanzure what works on tape?
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16:40  * fenn drools @ http://www.foothill.net/~sayre/22-in. binocular.htm
16:40 < fenn> http://www.foothill.net/~sayre/22-in.%20binocular.htm for all you clickers
16:41 < fenn> i'm so making a handheld version
16:43 < fenn> or perhaps a head mount version
16:43 < fenn> or shoulder-mount like the predator
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17:34 < kanzure> heh, sata just became like my best friend :)
17:34 < kanzure> he asked me to make a mysql database
17:34 < kanzure> and then understood that there needs to be a data architecture/framework/definition
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17:56 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL9Wu2kWwSY "Did you know?" presentation of various Big Numbers. got it in an email from my grandmother.
17:57 < kanzure> LOL, I can see where the scraping method would be preferable. Could you maybe take a comb-like device with little sharp metal bits embedded in the sides of the comb teeth, and glass slides stacked in between so that when you move the comb spine and the glass plates effectively move between the teeth you duplicate the same pattern on all?"
17:57 < kanzure> "
17:58 < kanzure> do'h. that's actually a smart idea, except that you would only be able to scrape linearly.
17:59 < kanzure> or, I mean, it wouldn't be able to do turns.
17:59 < kanzure> hm. if you had a stick with 'feet' at the end, and then moved that around between the glass slide sandwhich, that might work
18:03 < fenn> why no turns?
18:04 < fenn> bigger problem would be getting all the tips to press evenly
18:09 < kanzure> no turns if the entire device is the same width. but if only the tip has the width and only the tip is scraping the sharpie markings off, that's fine
18:11 < fenn> fail to parse
18:11 < kanzure> suppose you have a little stick that you shove between the two slides
18:11 < kanzure> at the end of this stick you have a thick piece that scrapes the sharpie off
18:12 < kanzure> if that was the case, that's ok and turns are possible
18:12 < fenn> why between two slides?
18:12 < kanzure> so that it scrapes the same pattern on both slides
18:12 < fenn> that's silly
18:12 < kanzure> well, do you have a better idea?
18:12 < fenn> why do you need the same pattern on both slides?
18:12 < kanzure> because apparently it doesn't work with sharpie only on one slide
18:13 < fenn> i dont see how that can work at all
18:13 < kanzure> ?
18:13 < fenn> have you actually done this?
18:13 < kanzure> yes
18:13 < kanzure> but I have not done "a glass sandwhich with only one side patterned"
18:13 < fenn> and it made the exact same pattern on two slides (one mirror reversed)
18:13 < kanzure> I have done "only one side patterned" and *not* in a glass sandwhich (it did not work)
18:13 < kanzure> no, I have not done that yet
18:13 < fenn> ok, well.. good luck i guess
18:14 < kanzure> I have used sharp pointy objects to draw in a dark splotch of sharpie though.
18:14 < kanzure> I need to see if hair works as a way to remove sharpie.
18:14 < fenn> why bother
18:14 < kanzure> hm?
18:14 < kanzure> because hair is thinner?
18:15 < fenn> chopped tungsten is pointier
18:15 < kanzure> I remember reading about that as a way to make tips for STMs
18:15 < kanzure> do I have tungsten laying around and I just don't know about it?
18:15 < fenn> you can get the same result with a paper clip
18:15 < kanzure> I broke a metal paper clip by bending/heating
18:15 < kanzure> but the sharp edge wasn't particularly sharp- I think there's a special way I have to break it
18:15 < fenn> you dont want to break it, cut it with wire cutters
18:16 < kanzure> wah, I don't have wire cutters laying around
18:16 < fenn> fingernail clippers?
18:16 < kanzure> no, but I'll get some
18:16 < fenn> it doesn't matter anyway
18:16 < kanzure> why?
18:17 < kanzure> (why does it not matter?)
18:17 < fenn> you need to get it to work with just one slide etched
18:17 < fenn> because there's no way in hell you're going to exactly duplicate the pattern on two slides with primitive methods
18:17 < kanzure> so, consider this:
18:18 < kanzure> when I did it the first time, I had two parallel lines as the design, so four lines in total
18:18 < kanzure> on one of them, the line was a fucked line
18:18 < kanzure> and went off in some weird direction
18:18 < kanzure> however, the bubble would follow the other line
18:18 < kanzure> no matter which way you flipped the device
18:18 < kanzure> in other words, it would not go off into the crazy direction
18:18 < fenn> ok i'm not surprised
18:18 < kanzure> so I should seriously try a sandwhich with only one side patterned
18:19 < kanzure> in fact, I'll go eat and then head off to the lab to check the paperclip-etched patterns in the microscope as well.
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18:50 < transilluminator> todo: (1) glass sandwhich with only one side patterned, the other side blank. (2) try it with tape-only (the non-sticky side- the other side can be taped to a sticky side of another piece)
18:51 < transilluminator> (3) sandwhich slides + simultaneous scraping (if #1 fails)
18:52 < transilluminator> also, I may be able to acquire photographs this time.
18:52  * fenn squints
18:53 < fenn> the new gel box has IRC capabilities? :)
18:55 < transilluminator> polIII hacked its way through the gel to make an IRC-compatible microfluidic circuit; please excuse the response delays.
18:57 < fenn> ubiquitin relay chat
18:58 < transilluminator> implementing IRC in one of these devices- whether as a genetic regulatory network or a microfluidic device (ASIC-like)--  would be sufficiently geeky to warrant a place on my todo list.
18:58 < fenn> and it would certainly make slashdot
18:58 < transilluminator> if you could ping proteins to speak with them, what would they say? what could be said with electrons?
19:00 < fenn> hurm. a protein isnt really complicated enough to do much, it's more of an analog component than digital, even though it's made in a digital process
19:00 < fenn> but theoretically you could do just about anything
19:00 < transilluminator> well, some proteins would act as an analog relay or signal processor, yes, that's true,
19:00 < fenn> report back the levels of various antigens
19:00 < transilluminator> but I was being more metaphorical than anything else
19:01 < transilluminator> more expecting a Douglas Adams response
19:01 < fenn> oh, uh. i guess they would probably mope for a while and then talk about the inevitable heat death of the universe
19:02 < transilluminator> har har, you made a funny about thermodynamics
19:02 < fenn> indeed
19:02 < transilluminator> enzyme kinematics too I guess
19:03 < fenn> now you get to go hit on some girls and ask them "would you like to come see my etchings?"
19:05 < transilluminator> hm, drawing sharpie on scotch tape when it's on glass doesn't work?
19:05 < transilluminator> but when the tape is on paper, it does work? except you peel off the tape and the sharpie pattern is not on the paper
19:05 < transilluminator> (I wrapped my slide in tape since I'd like to see if I can stop going through so many slides)
19:06 < transilluminator> oh, it's because it's going dry
19:11 < fenn> " Anybody
19:11 < fenn> with an inkjet printer and access to a lamination machine should be
19:11 < fenn> thinking about trying the double lamination ("polyester") layer
19:11 < fenn> microfluidics method instead of sharpies,"
19:11 < fenn> man you really misunderstood that article didnt you
19:11 < transilluminator> hm?
19:11 < transilluminator> I also didn't readi t
19:11 < transilluminator> *read it
19:11 < fenn> sigh
19:11 < transilluminator> but I thought you said it was just a lamination approach?
19:11  * transilluminator checks
19:11 < transilluminator> (also, single-sided doesn't work)
19:11 < transilluminator> although I'm doing it on tape, which might be the problem
19:12 < fenn> process: print on transparency film with a laser printer, iron them together (well, you probably want a laminator for that)
19:12 < fenn> but it wont work with an inkjet
19:12 < transilluminator> oh, it has to be a laser printer?
19:12 < fenn> yes
19:12 < transilluminator> I must have been confusing it with http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Fabrication%20of%20microsensors%20using%20unmodified%20office%20inkjet%20printers.pdf
19:12 < transilluminator> or http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Refreshable%20microfluidic%20channels%20constructed%20using%20an%20inkjet%20printer.pdf
19:13 < transilluminator> wah. single-sided with tape doesn't work.
19:13 < transilluminator> the water just attached itself to the other slide.
19:16 < fenn> well i guess i'm off to the fabratory
19:17 < transilluminator> have fun
19:17 < transilluminator> did you correct me on diybio?
19:18 < transilluminator> ah, there we go
19:18 < transilluminator> thank you
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19:47 < fenn> hm so much for that idea
19:47 < transilluminator> no key?
19:48 < fenn> no :(
19:48 < fenn> i should talk to him about that, cause i'm pickling in my own uselessness
19:50 < transilluminator> mac asks "Is transparency "paper" hydrophilic?  Because I know there are certain types that you can run directly through a laser printer.  That would avoid the hot-iron mediated toner transfer step."
19:50 < fenn> there is no toner transfer step, you just run it through the printer
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19:51 < fenn> there's special "laser printer" version but i dont see much difference
19:51 < transilluminator> sharpie on one glass slide and nothing on the other slide does not work.
19:51 < transilluminator> also, sharpie on one side of a slide covered in cuiper tape doesn't work either
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19:51 < fenn> sigh.. diybio is too trivial for me
19:51 < transilluminator> (same with sharpie-side with scotch tape; same with both sides scotch tape, only one side patterned)
19:52 < transilluminator> trivial?
19:52 < fenn> its like a chatroom almost
19:52 < transilluminator> well.
19:52 < transilluminator> oh, the list
19:52 < transilluminator> I thought you were being upset about droplet herding :)
19:52 < fenn> the projects are lame too, but that's a different issue
19:55 < fenn> i wish the world would agree on top vs bottom posting
19:55 < transilluminator> srsly.
19:56 < fenn> i think guido had it right
19:56 < fenn> only one way to do it
19:56 < fenn> is best
19:56 < transilluminator> yes, most mailing lists have a policy for top versus bottom posting
19:56 < transilluminator> one time on piclist they decided on side posting,
19:56 < transilluminator> and then got into an argument on left/right posting
19:57 < transilluminator> bah.
19:57 < fenn> uh, side posting.. that's new
19:58 < transilluminator> one asshole did diagonal posting, but that's just ridicoulous.
19:58 < transilluminator> *ridiculous
19:58 < fenn> i like bottom posting because it's more or less like interleaved but you're replying to the whole message.. but i usually do whatever the rest of the thread is like. what chafes me is when someone switches halfway through the thread
19:58 < transilluminator> I have been finding that I am losing many minutes of my day now clicking on little "Show the quoted text" links in my mail clients for top-posters
19:58 < transilluminator> I have no freaking clue what they are responding to- literally-
19:59 < transilluminator> now, if I was in kmail, or another actual sane mail client,
19:59 < transilluminator> I'd have proper hierarchical threading
19:59 < transilluminator> but I guess nobody has written that particular greasemonkey userscript yet (wtf?)
19:59 < transilluminator> why am I using the gmail web interface
19:59 < fenn> what does greasemonkey have to do with it?
19:59 < fenn> gmail does IMAP so you have no excuse
19:59 < transilluminator> greasemonkey could be used to hack the thread display in a browser
20:00 < transilluminator> well, I want my archives in the same place
20:00 < transilluminator> gmail only allows a one-time download of mail
20:00 < fenn> one-time?
20:00 < transilluminator> and right now the laptop is "broken"
20:00 < transilluminator> yes
20:00 < fenn> oh, pop3 not IMAP?
20:00 < transilluminator> right
20:00 < fenn> http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=77695
20:01 < transilluminator> okay okay
20:01 < transilluminator> I'll do that soon
20:01 < fenn> http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=78799
20:01 < transilluminator> so uh, any other ideas for one-sided fluidics?
20:02 < transilluminator> I've exhausted the available types of tape in the lab
20:02 < fenn> what was wrong with the laser printer idea? (polyester lamination)
20:03 < transilluminator> I don't have quick access to a lamination machine?
20:03 < fenn> clothes iron?
20:04 < fenn> propane torch and bar of metal?
20:04  * fenn wonders what the minimum acceptable technology infrastructure is
20:04 < transilluminator> no clothes iron :/
20:05 < transilluminator> fenn: I certainly don't meet minimum requirements, in terms of what I am always allowed to access at any hour of the day etc.
20:05 < transilluminator> *minimum acceptable definition
20:05 < fenn> you should work on that
20:05 < fenn> oo hair curler
20:06 < transilluminator> why do women have more useful tools?
20:06 < transilluminator> hrm.
20:11 < transilluminator> it seems it must be double-sided.
20:11 < transilluminator> erm, done on both sides I mean
20:14 < transilluminator> oh
20:14 < transilluminator> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Performing%20chemical%20reactions%20in%20virtual%20capillary%20of%20surface%20tension-confined%20microfluidic%20devices%20-%20sharpies%20-%20nail%20polish%20-%20glass%20surfaces%20-%20hydrophobicity.pdf
20:14 < transilluminator> so I think they used the nail polish so they could sandwhich the two slides together and imprint the pattern on the other one.
20:16 < transilluminator> "could be arbitrarily changed using appropriate pen and printing device"
20:18 < transilluminator> hm, "  Next, we show that a patterned glass slide and the polycarbonate part of a CD
20:18 < transilluminator> can, when sandwiched appropriately, work as a microfluidic device and the same
20:18 < transilluminator> chemical reactions can be performed as well. In other words, a hydrophilic line sur-
20:18 < transilluminator> rounded by hydrophobic barrier, air and opposite hydrophobic surface is enough to
20:18 < transilluminator> "
20:18 < transilluminator> ink patterned glass side, and the hydrophobic side of the polycarbonate CD
20:19 < transilluminator> (the smooth / non-grooved side)
20:20 < fenn> guh.. you actually found a paper combining nail polish, sharpies, glass slides, and microfluidics?
20:22 < transilluminator> I was looking around for papers about nail polish and microfluidics
20:22 < transilluminator> and this one had the sharpie.
20:23 < transilluminator> are there any tricks to figure out which side is which on a CD?
20:24 < transilluminator> google is not being helpful
20:24 < fenn> the shiny side is the one you want
20:24 < transilluminator> they are both shiny
20:24 < fenn> the one you dont write on
20:25 < transilluminator> I usually just write on the one that is facing up when I pick it up from the stack that I bought it in.
20:25 < transilluminator> however, this CD has been picked up and has not preserved its flip state
20:25 < fenn> i think you need to go back to AI boot camp
20:26 < fenn> introduction to physical reality for agent based systems 101
20:26 < transilluminator> near the doughnut hole, on one side, there is writing which cannot be seen from the other side of the doughnut hole
20:26 < transilluminator> the writing is in a circular subgroove or something.
20:26 < transilluminator> which side is this writing on?
20:27 < fenn> *facepalm*
20:28 < transilluminator> or actually, the doughnut hole (partially made of clear plastic)  has writing which of course can only legibly be read from one side; which side is it when I can read it out?
20:28 < fenn> shiny side: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Compact_disc.svg
20:28 < fenn> the side you write on: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Compact_disc.jpg
20:29 < transilluminator> this disc does not have writing on it like that.
20:29 < transilluminator> I mean manufacturing information (supposedly) around the doughnot hole.
20:30 < transilluminator> both sides are shiny and give off rainbow light patterns.
20:30 < fenn> is it a lightscribe disk?
20:30 < transilluminator> one in particular seems particularly subsceptible to oils and grease
20:30 < transilluminator> I've never heard of lightscribe
20:30 < fenn> double sided, basically
20:31 < transilluminator> I guess it could be, how would I know?
20:31 < fenn> anyway since you're going to destroy it, the plastic side won't flake off when you scratch it with a knife
20:31 < fenn> but the aluminum side will
20:31 < fenn> if neither does, i can only assume it's some kind of sandwich
20:31 < transilluminator> it's certainly scratchable.
20:31 < transilluminator> but flake?
20:32 < fenn> it'll be transparent after you scratch the aluminum off
20:32 < transilluminator> oh shit
20:32 < transilluminator> yes, one side does flake :)
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20:37 < transilluminator> yay it's working
20:37 < transilluminator> woot one sided patterns.
20:38 < fenn> so, blob sharpie -> scratch -> clip 2 cd's together?
20:39 < transilluminator> so if you scratch the aluminum off, it will be transparent from the other side?
20:39 < transilluminator> so you'll be able to see what's going on?
20:40 < fenn> not exactly
20:40 < fenn> it'll be all scratched up
20:40 < fenn> i spose you could dissolve it with a strong base
20:41 < fenn> there are lots of other sources for clear relatively flat plastic
20:43 < transilluminator> yes, it is scratched, but you can at least see the sharpie pattern
20:43 < transilluminator> which means a dye would be visible
20:43 < transilluminator> which is sufficient methinks
20:50 < transilluminator> huh, apparently nail polish remover (acetone) on a cloth is sufficient to clean glass.
20:50 < transilluminator> *glass with sharpie markings on it
20:53 < fenn> acetone will dissolve just about anything
20:53 < fenn> if it really is nail polish remover it's probably ethyl acetate
20:53 < fenn> with other crap in it that might leave a film
20:55 < transilluminator> I suspect a lot of scrubbing with "plain" water will do the trick
20:56 < fenn> rubbing alcohol works (sorta)
20:56 < fenn> acetone will dissolve your CD though
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20:59 < willPow3r> http://www.jneuroengrehab.com/content/pdf/1743-0003-6-7.pdf
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21:09 < transilluminator> uberwin.
21:10 < transilluminator> using "Sanford Permanent Vis-a-Vis Overhead Projector Pen DO NOT SHAKE".
21:10 < transilluminator> (blue)
21:11 < transilluminator> sharpie blotch -> lay down some hair -> smash two glass slides together -> gently pull out the hair -> 18 to 180 micrometer channel. clear.
21:11 < fenn> i think the hair stuff is a bad idea
21:11 < transilluminator> it worked here.
21:11 < transilluminator> grr, I need a camera
21:11  * transilluminator steals transilluminator camera
21:12 < transilluminator> hm, it's locked
21:13 < transilluminator> but anyway, at best you'd just lay down hair in weird patterns and pull the hair on through
21:13 < transilluminator> I'm not sure you're going to be able to make specific patterns with this method
21:18 < katsmeow-afk> hold thehair str8, then sandwich it to get a str8 line
21:19 < katsmeow-afk> hold two hairs at angle, make sandwich, pull both out, then put a dot on the chanenls at the angle where you do not want a channel
21:21 < katsmeow-afk> no guarantee
21:23 < katsmeow-afk> the hairs may engage each otehr,, try to set the hair cuticle so it is less likely to engage
21:23 < katsmeow-afk> cuticle(?)
21:23 < katsmeow-afk> the ridges, the overlapping,, you know what i am trying to say
21:29 < transilluminator> I get about the same width from drawing with the edge of a paperclip as I do pulling my hair through a glass+sharpie sandwhich.
21:29 < transilluminator> (confirmed with microscope)
21:30 < fenn> the channel thickness is probably determined by the sharpie ink layer thickness
21:31 < fenn> darker = wider channel
21:32 < transilluminator> darker = wider channel in the vertical direction, you mean
21:32 < transilluminator> but remember there is also the 'spacer' between the glass layer and the polycarbonate (CD) or other glass surface
21:32 < transilluminator> I'm not even sure if the water is being confined to the precise rectangular (or fuzzy-nearly rectangular shape) etched out by the sharpie
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