--- Day changed Sun Mar 15 2009
00:00 < kanzure> now I have big bulky buttons from heekscad added to the InteractiveViewer.py 
00:01 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/pythonocc/menu_notes.txt
00:01 < kanzure> the stuff at the top (before wx.Menu()) should probably be at the bottom
00:03 < kanzure> fenn: do you want a subdomain on fabfolk.com ?
00:07 < fenn> eh sure why not
00:07 < fenn> is it going to become active? looks like a godaddy parking page
00:08 < fenn> what's this .txt crap
00:08 < fenn> just post the .py file
00:08 < kanzure> well, it's me playing around until I get something that works
00:08 < kanzure> there is no .py file, it's me doing random shit in the interpreter
00:09 < fenn> ah, that's nice isnt it
00:09 < kanzure> no
00:09 < fenn> you know it took me two hours to add a c++ function to heekscad
00:09 < fenn> very simple cut and paste job
00:10 < kanzure> was most of that time spent finding how everything works?
00:12 < gene> careful with domain names
00:12 < gene> they could get squated from under us
00:12 < gene> if we don't be careful
00:12 < kanzure> just don't run whois without whois installed
00:15 < kanzure> hrm, amy asking about skdb status. "it's closer with pythonocc" is what I've told her.
00:18  * fenn sulks
00:19 < fenn> actually, since we can open STEP and IGES files, it's a lot closer to being usable with external cad programs
00:22 < kanzure> I don't know about hooking everything to the OCC api, but other than that minor problem, this does make things much easier
00:23 < fenn> well at least it can do stuff like generate thumbnail previews of the cad file
00:23 < kanzure> oh? 
00:23 < fenn> no?
00:23 < kanzure> who?
00:23 < fenn> for the wiki package manager stuffs
00:23 < kanzure> what generates the thumbnails?
00:24 < fenn> some python script using pythonocc
00:24 < fenn> part of django or whatever
00:24 < kanzure> guess I don't know how custom thumbnails are generated anyway
00:24 < fenn> its basically a screenshot, ok?
00:24 < kanzure> oh, I'm sure
00:24 < kanzure> sorry, wasn't thinking
00:24 < kanzure> I know that icons and thumbnails in konqueror are sometimes dynamically generated
00:24 < kanzure> but I've never investigated how it passes the data to what app and how it gets the thumbnail returned to display
00:25 < fenn> well that would be neat, but it's kde specific
00:25 < gene> interesting
00:25 < kanzure> it also happens on Windows, but yes it's specific to how the file explorer works IIRC
00:25 < gene> dynamically generated icons?
00:25 < kanzure> yeah, Solidworks does it on Windows, gene
00:25 < fenn> there's a little thumbnail of your assembly then?
00:25 < kanzure> yes
00:26 < kanzure> and without starting up Solidworks methinks. otherwise it would take 20+ seconds to load a folder with a single assembly :P
00:26 < kanzure> so it must be cached?
00:26 < fenn> of course i'd rather have a zooming ui but we're getting close at least
00:26 < gene> oh not icons like for firefox
00:26 < fenn> bah. i'm sure they can render some geometry without loading 99% of the crap in that application
00:27 < fenn> isnt it like 2GB?
00:27 < gene> It'd be cool of if I saw different icons every once in awhile
00:27 < kanzure> gene: you mean .ico files for bookmarks?
00:27 < fenn> yeah it's called a theme gene
00:27 -!- RandIter [n=RandIter@pool-71-183-32-51.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
00:27 < gene> ok
00:27 < kanzure> hey RandIter
00:27 < fenn> it's what you do when you're procrastingating your homework
00:27 < kanzure> are you a random iterator?
00:27 < RandIter> hey guys
00:27 < RandIter> more like a random iteration
00:27 < fenn> an objectivist fusion reactor?
00:27 < kanzure> fenn: yes, it's about 3 GB
00:28 < gene> ontology center lol
00:28 < RandIter> what's the topic of discussion of this room
00:29 < kanzure> RandIter: fablabs, manufacturing, engineering, how pissed off we are at the world for being shitty, 
00:29 -!- fenn changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: the same thing we talk about every night.. taking over the world!
00:29 < kanzure> stuff.
00:29 < gene> shit the world does suck
00:29 < gene> it needs to torn down and reengineered
00:29 < kanzure> please don't be so destructive.
00:30 < fenn> at least give me a chance to make a better one somewhere else
00:30  * katsmeow-afk gets the WD-40 prepared for the robot overlords
00:30 < RandIter> you could try simulating it. might fail tho
00:30 < kanzure> fenn: do you remember the Pinky and the Brain episode where they make a paper mache planet in orbit around the earth?
00:30 < fenn> send us your unwashed masses, your nuclear waste, and lots of compost
00:30 < gene> destructive? come on 5 kg of TNT is hardly destructive
00:31 < fenn> and all of your libraries, plz
00:31 < gene> heh
00:31 < gene> I remember that one
00:31 < kanzure> the most powerful force in the galaxy!
00:31 < kanzure> free t-shirts.
00:31 < RandIter> especially on girls with big ...
00:32 < katsmeow-afk> ok, the cross slide screw should *pull* the slide into the work, right?
00:32 < kanzure> brains?
00:32 < fenn> pizza force goes with the square of radius
00:32 < fenn> vs a linear extrapolation for girls with big tits
00:32 < fenn> actually it's not even linear
00:32 < gene> wow I wonder, if we could ever make self-replicating probe if we could make it automatically generate t-shirts for places
00:32 < kanzure> how is that "wow"
00:33 < katsmeow-afk> <cough>
00:33 < fenn> katsmeow-afk: what do i do with this cat that's in heat?
00:33 < katsmeow-afk> you seriously want to know?
00:33 < kanzure> fenn, irc is not the best place to ask
00:33 < fenn> sigh
00:33 < gene> hmmmmm... this sounds like something the people in #cosmeng
00:33 < fenn> i dont have any q-tips
00:34 < katsmeow-afk> qtips is bad, they leave cotton behind
00:34 < kanzure> http://bash.org/?search=cat+heat&sort=0&show=25
00:34 < katsmeow-afk> you you have the right idea, according to most 
00:34 < gene> I CANNOT UNKNOW THAT
00:34 < gene> Shit
00:35 < RandIter> pardom me for being a noob but what's hplus
00:36 < fenn>  If humans had orgasms with the intensity of a cat serviced in this way there would be no such thing as war, hunger, capitalism or God. 
00:37 < gene> ummm... cats are hardly ever the topic
00:37 < kanzure> RandIter: hplus refers to "transhuman"
00:37 < fenn> RandIter: how'd you come across this channel anyway?
00:37 < gene> was it heybryan.org?
00:37 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, you might NOT better turn her loose to a male cat after doing that, because she won't be expecting the male cat to hurt her, and he can't help it
00:38 < fenn> she's an indoor cat anyway, there's FIV going around
00:38  * katsmeow-afk nods
00:38 < gene> I think I'm going to leave now
00:39 < RandIter> fenn: i was referred to it by a member
00:39 < katsmeow-afk> mine is also indoor, but she was fixed way way early,, she only thinks she is wanting some
00:39 < fenn> a member?
00:39 < kanzure> we have members?
00:39 < gene> heh
00:39 < gene> heh
00:39 < fenn> not only am I a member, I'm the president!
00:39 < kanzure> huh
00:39 < kanzure> did we elect you?
00:39 < gene> hahahaha, we're anarchists
00:39 < RandIter> sorry. it's late and I'm tired. a user instead
00:39 < kanzure> since when?
00:40 < gene> we have no government
00:40 < fenn> "user" doesnt convey much more information
00:40 < kanzure> this is all rather sudden.
00:40 < kanzure> we went from fenn's tyranny to gene-anarchy to I don't know what all in under 20 seconds
00:40 < kanzure> impressive.
00:40 < fenn> all IRC is defacto anarchy until someone imposes services
00:40 < gene> so randiter did you hear about it from a website?
00:40 < fenn> also, i absconded with the treasury before the uprising
00:40 < gene> or a friend IRL?
00:40 < RandIter> gene: nope, no website. just irc
00:41 < gene> well then no idea
00:41  * fenn looks around at the stony poker faces lurking
00:41 < kanzure> fenn: joke's on you, it was a net deficiet.
00:41 < gene> so what's eccentrcity?
00:41 < gene> WRT to geometry
00:41 < fenn> a circle off center of rotation
00:42 < kanzure> in terms of ellipses, it's something like the sqrt of a/b, where a is the value under the first polynomial term, and b is the other for the other
00:42 < katsmeow-afk> ya know, i missed the whole transhumanist thread of this room before
00:42 < katsmeow-afk> only heard of it tonite
00:42 < kanzure> it's because I'm a yak shaver
00:42 < katsmeow-afk> umm, o
00:42 < fenn> we rarely if ever actually talk about it, because 1) there are so many different things to do and 2) talking about transhumanism is lame
00:43 < kanzure> and through #1 you get on thinking about stuff to do and then you get to where we're at now
00:43 < fenn> there's plenty of "wow it would be cool if we had wings" mailing lists
00:43 < kanzure> which more or less involves different technologies and blah blah blah
00:43 < kanzure> (that was poorly stated. just assume I said something brilliant there.)
00:44 < fenn> more or less involves fixing the broken world we happen to be in
00:44 < gene> could it mean the displacement of a gear that goes in a circle?
00:44 < fenn> at least enough to gain some acceleration potential
00:44 < katsmeow-afk> i think the masses will refuse to allow the world to be fixed
00:44 < fenn> gene: diagram please
00:44 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk: who cares?
00:44 < gene> ok 
00:44 < gene> coming right up
00:44 < fenn> katsmeow-afk: i dont care about that.. i mean fixing what is possible for an unenhanced human to do
00:45 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk: I have some old stuff on my site
00:45 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/recursion.html
00:45 < gene> please wait while I find the book mark
00:45 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/fractal.html
00:45 < gene> this might take awhile
00:45 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/transhumanism_def.html
00:45 < fenn> like right now i have to pay some company money just to develop some electronics
00:45 < fenn> because it's not possible for an individual to do chip fabbing
00:45 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/buildingbrains.html
00:45 < fenn> and all the regulatory hurdles and barriers that go along with this
00:45 < kanzure> fenn: well, it is, you just don't know how or don't have the tools immediately available
00:45 < gene> http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19670018173_1967018173.pdf
00:45 < fenn> right
00:46 < fenn> you could say that about anything though
00:46 < fenn> what page?
00:47 < fenn> ok the ring gear has one more tooth than the pinion
00:47 < fenn> if they were concentric the teeth wouldn't mesh
00:47 < fenn> so you have to move one or the other off center (eccentric)
00:47 < fenn> in this case they put the pinion off center
00:48 < fenn> aren't you in mechanical engineering?
00:48 < kanzure> fenn: they don't teach us much.
00:49 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk: one of the things that matters in true transhuman tech issues is the toolchain length from "programmer" and "that which is programmed"- and in the case of transhumanism, that's supposed to be the self
00:49 < kanzure> just trying to word it more elegantly.
00:49 < fenn> eh this diagram is confusing because there's three nested ring/pinion gears
00:50 < fenn> that's a nice way to put it
00:51  * katsmeow-afk nods
00:51  * katsmeow-afk nods
00:51 < katsmeow-afk> erg
00:51 < kanzure> thus why I was originally thinking about "recursion path length minimization"- how many steps does it take until you "find yourself back at yourself" ?
00:51 < kanzure> there is some recursion-path that can take the programmer from lengthy recursions to those recursions that end up "back where they started" (the programmer) even more quickly, minimizing the length of such a recursion, while maximizing the covered 'surface area' and 'volume' of personal possibility space
00:52 < katsmeow-afk> so it isn't about the real world?
00:52 < kanzure> excuse me?
00:52 < katsmeow-afk> well, if it's about the programmer, not changing the world, then it's not about the world?
00:52 < kanzure> am I not a part of the world?
00:52 < katsmeow-afk> ok
00:53 < kanzure> some buddhists talk about the world and the self being the same thing
00:53 < kanzure> but I'm not about to get into a discussion about that
00:53 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/edeism.html
00:53 < fenn> "m I helping at all, or did I just cross over into some weird world of animal porn that I never even knew existed?"
00:53 < katsmeow-afk> i guess i have hit  abrick wall then, because i cannot get accustomed to breathing burning garbage 24-7 day after day after day,, i need to reprogram others,, or leave
00:54 < katsmeow-afk> and i am working on leaving, physically, because they like it like this
00:54 < kanzure> fenn: who said that?
00:54 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk: sounds good to me.
00:54 < fenn> someone on the internets
00:54 < kanzure> fenn: was funny.
00:54 < kanzure> fenn: since it implies he knew about animal porn in the first place
00:54 < kanzure> hehe
00:55 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk: and if you get bored, http://heybryan.org/quotes.html has related inspirational quotes related to transhumanism, sort of
00:55 < fenn> pigfucker :P
00:57 < katsmeow-afk> nah not bored, tween working on the generator and lathe till,, it's 1am now, i am not bored
00:57 < katsmeow-afk> i've read transhumanist webpages before, i'll read your's tomorrow
00:57 < kanzure> most transhumanist webpages are bullshit
00:58 < kanzure> in fact, mine might be bullshit as well
00:58 < kanzure> the jury's still out on that.
00:58 < katsmeow-afk> i'd agree most are fantasy
01:01 < kanzure> inventory: polystyrene drinking straws, average size metal paperclip, at least 10 counts of human hair, a sharpie, and 50 CDs. please make me a singularity from this. kthnxbai.
01:02 < kanzure> gene: I've been meaning to ask you,
01:03 < kanzure> gene: if you could think up a way to make use of human hair to draw microchannels, except reinforcing the hair to make it stronger so that it can push sharpie ink around.
01:03 < gene> that's fucking it kanzure
01:03 < gene> YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG
01:04 < kanzure> not for rapid one-off prototyping
01:04 < kanzure> which isn't repeatable
01:04 < kanzure> nevermind. it'd be useless.
01:04 < RandIter> if one can afford it, does it make sense to pay to get your head frozen upon your death
01:05 < kanzure> insurance covers that with Alcor these days, btw
01:05 < gene> no
01:05 < kanzure> and if you're a student, even better
01:05 < gene> not even for that
01:05 < kanzure> I wouldn't suggest drinking the kool-aide, but certainly check it out and ask a few of the cryonics activists
01:06 < gene> kanzure
01:06 < gene> there's a much better way to do it
01:06 < gene> let me dig up instuctions for making stamps
01:06 < kanzure> can you make stamps without having stamps?
01:06 < gene> yeah
01:06 < fenn> if you have an electron beam etcher
01:06 < gene> oh wait
01:07 < kanzure> wtf gene :(
01:07 < kanzure> I don't have an e-beam machine under my bed at the moment
01:07 < gene> you make the stamps with sharpies and FC
01:07 < kanzure> FC?
01:07 < gene> ferric chloride
01:07 < kanzure> ferri-
01:07 < katsmeow-afk> RandIter, makes as much sense and being buried in a $3000 box
01:07 < kanzure> ah
01:07 < gene> FeCl
01:07 < RandIter> katsmeow-afk: the hope is that one's brain can be scanned and simulated in hardware in the future
01:08 < kanzure> or reinstalled into a body.
01:08 < kanzure> or a thousand other procedures.
01:08 < kanzure> they actually have checkboxes on their forms
01:08 < RandIter> kanzure: reinstalling it into a human body seems much less likely to me, realistically
01:08 < kanzure> for "[X] reinstantiate me with a human body"
01:08 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, good luck with that
01:08 < kanzure> or "[X] please don't resusitate me if ______"
01:08 < gene> http://www.tsukineko.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=25
01:08 < gene> this
01:09 < gene> is better
01:09 < fenn> "[ ] reinstantiate me with a ______ body"
01:09 < RandIter> please don't reinstate me if a texan is president. no offense.
01:09 < kanzure> RandIter: I was thinking of something racist that a famous cryonaught would say
01:09 < kanzure> "don't reinstantiate me if a negro becomes president" - Mr. Walt Disney
01:09 < kanzure> or something
01:09 < kanzure> Michael Isner?
01:10 < fenn> did he actually say that?
01:10 < kanzure> no, but Walt Disney was supposedly racist
01:11 < kanzure> "A long-standing urban legend maintains that Disney was cryonically frozen, and his frozen corpse was stored underneath the Pirates of the Caribbean ride at Disneyland.[73] However, this was discredited due to the fact that Disney was cremated, and the first known instance of Cryonic Freezing of a corpse (of Dr. James Bedford) occurred a month later in January.[73]"
01:11 < kanzure> ah crap
01:11 < kanzure> nevermind
01:11 < fenn> how many people have actually been frozen?
01:11 < kanzure> many thousands, I hear. have you seen the Alcor tours?
01:11 < fenn> no
01:11 < kanzure> I actually have a DVD laying around here of the Alcor tour
01:12 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcor_Life_Extension_Foundation
01:12 < kanzure> "
01:12 < kanzure> As of January 31, 2009, Alcor had 876 members, and 84 patients in cryopreservation, many as neuropatients.[3]"
01:12 < kanzure> well, shit.
01:12 < kanzure> I guess that's not a total though
01:12 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuropreservation
01:13 < kanzure> "independently proposed yet again in 1974 by Mike Darwin, and Fred and Linda Chamberlain. The Chamberlains were the founders of the Alcor Life Extension Foundation."
01:13 < kanzure> " In 1976 Fred’s father became the first of many neuropreservation patients at Alcor[4]."
01:13 < kanzure> now that's a fairy tale.
01:13 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@c-24-130-14-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
01:13  * kanzure wonders why his dad had to go off and die without cryo.
01:13 < RandIter> for persons who've had only their brains preserved, it would be interesting/controversial if in the future, alcor decides to scan them and discard the physical brain.
01:13 < katsmeow-afk> i'd like to know what this "scan" is
01:13 < kanzure> there's stuff in their contract about that apparently
01:13 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk: slice scanning.
01:13 < kanzure> slice-and-scan.
01:14 < kanzure> but it's unknown whether or not that would capture relevant information
01:14 < katsmeow-afk> you cannot get the person back from a sliced up brain
01:14 < kanzure> what's a person?
01:14 < katsmeow-afk> the functioning sentiane sapient organism
01:14 < kanzure> what the fuck?
01:14 < katsmeow-afk> sentient
01:14 < katsmeow-afk> damn, i am almost asleep
01:14 < kanzure> is my cat sentient?
01:15 < RandIter> katsmeow-afk: yeah basically capturing info of a person's brain in enough detail to possibly allow simulating the person in another body
01:15 < katsmeow-afk> i do not know your cat
01:15 < kanzure> RandIter: the same question applies to you- wtf is a person?
01:15 < katsmeow-afk> RandIter, a physical slicing won't tell you the electrochemical state
01:16 < kanzure> there have been many discussions about this on the "let's all get wings" forums
01:16 < RandIter> an I/O device, usually intelligent
01:16 < kanzure> and in particular people ask about whether or not they would be the "same self" if one moment from now your atoms are replaced with identical atoms
01:16 < kanzure> or if your electrochemical states are changed slightly
01:16 < kanzure> and people have to give up because they suck at thinking about these things
01:16 < kanzure> "self" is a rather sketchy topic
01:16 < RandIter> atoms and quantum states should do it, i think
01:17 < kanzure> should do what ?
01:17 < kanzure> see what I mean?
01:17 < RandIter> provide enough info
01:17 < RandIter> that's basically all the info that's there
01:17 < kanzure> what's enough though?
01:17 < RandIter> i don't know, but I'm sure it can be determined experimentally
01:17 < kanzure> thinking of it in terms of "selfhood" is probably not the right way to go about it
01:17 -!- Fair [n=Nofaris@adsl-75-42-89-58.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
01:17 < kanzure> it's the easiest way to explain it to people I guess
01:17  * katsmeow-afk tosses Schrodingers cat into the scan
01:17 < kanzure> but for instance, are you your own father?
01:18 < RandIter> I'm lost
01:18 < kanzure> blah, nevermind
01:18 < kanzure> I'll rant about this later
01:19 < kanzure> probably on a big page on my site, and nobody will ever read it, but that's ok
01:19 < RandIter> as long as you've a small summary on top
01:20 < fenn> kanzure: make sure to go through and delete any whitespace before publishing
01:20 < RandIter> lol
01:20 < kanzure> really?
01:21 < kanzure> typelikethis?
01:21 < fenn> no, just paragraph breaks and so on
01:21 < kanzure> ok. will do.
01:22 < RandIter> fenn: I'm assuming you're being sarcastic, kinda?
01:22 < kanzure> if you look at my pages on my site, I tend to ramble on for many pages without a paragraph break :(
01:24 < gene> are we are who are all the time?
01:26 < kanzure> who?
01:26 < gene> or do some events modify us to make us different people
01:26 < kanzure> what's the comparison between people?
01:26 < kanzure> this sounds like philosophy
01:26 < gene> I await the day we are able to answer these questions
01:26 < kanzure> sounds like bullshit to me
01:27 < gene> ok
01:27 < kanzure> :)
01:27 < gene> kanzure, you know what we should do?
01:27 < RandIter> we're obviously changing and are not the same all the time, except my father maybe who seems steady and set in his ways
01:28 < gene> we should barge into a philosophy classroom with lab coats, glasses, and a flask full of green food dye water and yell THIS IS BULLSHIT
01:28 < katsmeow-afk> then drink it?
01:29 < kanzure> gene: well, depends on which type of philosophy class
01:29 < kanzure> some philosophers have their head on straight, but it's hard for them to communicate with others
01:29 < gene> maybe...
01:29 < kanzure> I mean, how does somebody that doesn't know about "self" talk to people who only want to talk about "self"?
01:29 < kanzure> that's a very hard thing to do
01:29 < gene> well I don't think we can truly call bullshit on them just yet
01:30 < RandIter> is the topic of 'self' really all that difficult?
01:30 < kanzure> yes
01:30 < gene> need some actual published papers first
01:30 < fenn> you could call your disaster troupe "mystery science theatre 3000"
01:30 < kanzure> my dad listened to that
01:30 < RandIter> i don't know if it is, kanzure
01:30 < kanzure> RandIter: well, nobody has been able to define it
01:30 < kanzure> it's just as much BS as "consciousness" AFAIK
01:31  * kanzure updates recursion.html at the bottom with tonight's line.
01:32 < gene> screw this, let's make a fluidic neural network
01:33 < kanzure> why a neural network?
01:33 < kanzure> do you mean an ANN, a perceptron, or something like that?
01:33 < kanzure> or a Hodgkin-Huxley approximation ?
01:33 < gene> because it's a neural network
01:33 < gene> that's why
01:33 < RandIter> or maybe a neural network in a dish
01:34 < kanzure> RandIter: http://heybryan.org/2008-08-15.html for notes on that.
01:34 < fenn> gene: just call it 'fluidic network' might reduce confusion
01:34 < gene> ok
01:34 < gene> then how about a missile with a fluidics based guidance system?
01:35 < gene> *warhead not included
01:36 < katsmeow-afk> won't the accel drain the fluid to the bottom?
01:37 < fenn> eh like fins?
01:37 < gene> hahahhahahahahahahah
01:37 < gene> no
01:38 < fenn> i just dont see how a missile helps me
01:38 < fenn> unless it's boosting to orbit perhaps
01:38 < gene> one of the driving forces behind fluidics was aerospace applications, high heat, high acceleration
01:38 < fenn> EMP resistance
01:38 < gene> fenn, I want to make a water rocket that can go sideways
01:39 < gene> yup and radiation resistance
01:39 < gene> damn
01:39 < fenn> i want to make a cat that can eat upside down
01:39 < fenn> fluidic gastronomical network
01:39 < gene> I need to scan these pictures of fluidics circuits glowing white hot
01:39 < fenn> with molten uranium for blood?
01:39 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@c-24-130-14-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
01:40 < gene> it can be done
01:40 < gene> you could use mint julip if you wanted to
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01:41 < kanzure> ok, so you have water in a missile making logic operations. now what.
01:42 < kanzure> hah, logic operations with blood vessels. must put that one on my todo list.
01:42  * fenn is thinking of this http://www.montesol.org/Games/Eldar/Avatar.jpg
01:42 < gene> about that
01:43  * katsmeow-afk was thnking about MA347612890GT4078579132R74 malumalu Z17924398TZR two thousand modular guidance type 452963752391MQTO gold launch system GLS installed self deciding type double 0 three seven 293165734285YGNKTIO1200YMCA4126PPPKG53 Normad
01:43 < gene> fluidics like clean fluids
01:43 < fenn> did tiggr tell you to say that?
01:43 < gene> no
01:44 < katsmeow-afk> heh
01:44 < gene> a study on contamination and it's effects on fluidic circuits said that
01:44 < gene> also good system design is important stuff
01:44 < kanzure> I'm glad you finally agree
01:46 < kanzure> http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=RegisterHideableWindow&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
01:47 < kanzure> hm, that only shows up in heekscad
01:48 < gene> now I wonder
01:48 < gene> if these fluidics things are considered states secrets
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01:50 < gene> I think I should make an amplifer before I make a missile
01:50 < fenn> yup
01:50 < gene> heh amish amplifer
01:51 < fenn> then make a tunable oscillator
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01:51 < katsmeow-afk> hydraulic speakers
01:51 < gene> a HYDRAULIC GUITAR!
01:52 < fenn> do it to it
01:53 < fenn> a hydraulic cello would be cooler though
01:53 < gene> well I don't have a guitar
01:53 < gene> but my roommate does...
01:53 < fenn> you dont have a cello either
01:54 < gene> ok
01:54 < gene> a cello would be cooler and more steampunk
01:55 < fenn> http://austin.craigslist.org/msg/1075400059.html
01:55 < fenn> not sure what "smells like a New Orleans music store" is supposed to mean
01:56 < gene> http://www.geekologie.com/2008/07/09/steampunk-guitar.jpg
01:56 < fenn> bah
01:56 < gene> so that's what the pressure gauge is for
01:56 < katsmeow-afk> ow
01:56 < fenn> people are missing the point on all this steampunk stuff
01:57 < fenn> no pun intended
01:57 < kanzure> wx.aui.AuiManager.AddPane(self._mgr, m_geometryBar, wx.aui.AuiPaneInfo().Name("GeomBar").Caption("Geometry Tools").ToolbarPane().Top());
01:57 < gene> http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/COMMS/fluidicgramophone/gramoph1.gif
01:57 < kanzure> as opposed to: m_aui_manager.AddPane(m_solidBar, wxAuiPaneInfo().Name("SolidBar").Caption("Solid Tools").ToolbarPane().Top());
01:57 < kanzure> (heek's version)
01:58 < kanzure> *heeks'
01:58 < gene> so any cool software that can extract geometry from that weird looking thing in the lower right?
01:58 < kanzure> heh, of course, nothing productive shows up
01:58 < fenn> autotrace
01:59 < kanzure> fenn: is that from 'convert' ?
01:59 < fenn> really you should just trace it by hand or else figure out the equations behind the design
01:59 < fenn> autotrace is a separate program that is also integrated in inkscape
02:00 < kanzure> http://autotrace.sf.net/
02:00 < kanzure> well now.
02:00 < gene> it by hand ok
02:00 < gene> that works
02:00 < gene> then scan in
02:00 < gene> oops
02:00 < gene> did I say scan in
02:00 < gene> I mean take  a picture of on a wooden table
02:00 < fenn> you're stuttering
02:02 < gene> well sometimes I stutter IRL too
02:03 < kanzure> thanks for autotrace
02:03 < kanzure> I wonder if ponoko is using that for their "scan in your design and we auto CAD it up" stuff
02:04 < fenn> what are these people thinking.. rar'ing zip files of jpegs
02:04 < katsmeow-afk> heh
02:04 < fenn> autotrace is not as perfect as you'd imagine
02:04 < fenn> it blindly traces whatever you give it
02:04 < fenn> at least the inkscape plugin lets you tweak things til it's least sucky
02:09 < gene> well I can remove some stuff from the image using my 1337 pattern recognition ability
02:24 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/pythonocc/small_gui_hack.py
02:25 < kanzure> almost getting there :p
02:25 < kanzure> god I hate GUIs
02:26 < fenn> 404
02:26 < fenn> ug it's 2 am already?
02:27 < kanzure> fixed.
02:27 < kanzure> guess I should upload it first huh
02:31 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/pythonocc/2009-03-15.png 
02:32 < gene> wait second
02:32 < gene> I just remembered
02:32 < gene> your doing cfd stuff
02:33 < kanzure> at times.
02:33 < gene> that means you could optimize fluidic amplifiers for me
02:33 < gene> err simulate them
02:34 < gene> pretty what is i?
02:34 < kanzure> fenn, did you ever figure out how to do the non-gui demos for elmer?
02:34 < gene> that picture?
02:34 < gene> if you don't tell me, I go sell it to the art museum
02:35 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/pythonocc/scripts/section.py
02:35 < kanzure> it's that.
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02:39 < gene> SHIT! ractor oerhat reator oveheat!
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04:24 < bkero> Bahahah fucking awesome
04:24 < bkero> http://www.big-big-truck.com/bebop/desktops.html
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13:57 < kanzure> uch a strange name? From
13:57 < kanzure> looking around most other people seem to use more 'normal' names. I
13:57 < kanzure> hrm. that didn't work. /me is testing out Zotero
14:06 < kanzure> it doesn't seem to automatically grab PDFs even when it's listed on Google immediately within the citation..
14:08 < kanzure> http://www.zotero.org/translators/
14:10 < kanzure> http://www.zotero.org/support/dev/extension_files
14:12 < kanzure> http://www.molspaces.com/cb2bib/ "The cb2Bib is a tool for rapidly extracting unformatted, or unstandardized bibliographic references from email alerts, journal Web pages, and PDF files."
14:12 < kanzure> black magic?
14:49 < kanzure> (was just plain text apparently. not PDF OCR black magic.)
15:02 < kanzure> huh, SEC mandated that any company with >$5 billion market cap implement XBRL for quarterly reporting: http://xbrl.org/
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15:39 < fenn> sudo make me a sandwich, blarg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQOkMz3kiS0
15:40 < bkero> Not making fenn a sandwich.
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16:40 < fenn> http://artbots.org/2008/participants/TwoStageTransferDrawing/
16:40 < fenn> i'd like to see some more detail on that
16:41 < kanzure> fenn: thanks for the sandwhich
16:42 < fenn> i think it's just her in a box
16:42 < fenn> and you poke her back
16:44 < kanzure> how do the linear actuators work for the vending-machine like spiral metal thingy that drops the bread and cheese?
16:45 < gene> sandvich machine?
16:45 < ybit> you guys talking about the Make machine?
16:45 < ybit> it did a terrible job of making sandwiches :P
16:46 < ybit> but it could be tweaked
16:46 < gene> I think some sort of pick and place vacuum head would work better for manipulating cheese
16:46 < gene> man I really wish there were totally automated sandwich vending machines
16:54 < kanzure> I think the cheese should be freshly cut
16:54 < kanzure> you're not going to be able to store slices of cheese for long periods of time in the way that the video showed
16:55 < kanzure> you can store a brick of cheese with seran wrap actuated covering mechanism
16:55 < kanzure> and then you just need a knife beam.
16:56 < fenn> what, no waterjet cutter?
16:56 < kanzure> also, it looks like I'm going to the community college next semester unless I come up with a brilliant plan for what I'm going to do on may 19th (kick out date)
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17:19 < gene> fuck
17:19 < kanzure> ?
17:20 < gene> you need money
17:21 < kanzure> dunno
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17:22 < fenn> hm. potatoes for cnc practice
17:23 < fenn> there was even some article about how to make plastic from potatoes
17:23 < gene> yeah
17:23 < gene> plastic that sucks
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17:27 < gene> hmmm... copper hydroxide
17:27 < gene> doesn't seem to hard to make
17:28 < gene> http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-Potato-Plastic!/?ALLSTEPS
17:28 < gene> hopefully you get to all steps
17:28 < fenn> the key step is cooking in vinegar
17:28 < kanzure> heh, potatoes for cnc practice :)
17:28 < fenn> my idea was to just mill a slab of potato
17:31 < fenn> i guess blue styrofoam would be about the same in terms of usefulness
17:31 < fenn> and wouldnt get moldy
17:31 < fenn> but you can't deep fry styrofoam
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17:37 < kanzure> https://reprap.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/reprap/trunk/users/hoeken/pythagoras/make_bot.py Creates a gcode file and list of rod lengths to build an auto-assembling frame based on various parameters.
17:38 < gene> autoassembling
17:38 < gene> I wonder if there will ever be a reprap version grendel...
17:40 < kanzure> grendel?
17:41 < gene> it harvests resources for replication rather voraciously
17:41 < gene> IE a true grey goo reprap
17:42 < gene> a great threat to earth
17:42 < gene> 's biosphere that must never be made
17:44 < fenn> bwahahaha
17:45 < fenn> yarrwin the reprap pirate ship
17:46 < kanzure> fenn: what blog be you reading?
17:46 < fenn> uh, "how to decrease your programmers' productivity"
17:46 < fenn> but i was just responding to "grendel the reprap"
17:56 < gene> heh  yarrwin
17:56 < gene> there are some boats with machine shops in them
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18:10  * katsmeow-afk will put all her tools on her boat as well, makes it easier to fix a broken prop or connector or patch a hole
18:10 < kanzure> a female?
18:10 < kanzure> are you a statistical anomaly?
18:11 < katsmeow-afk> depends on the statistic
18:11 < katsmeow-afk> if you mean will i go to extremes of leaving the country to get away from the macho crap that makes her less than a common stray dog, then yeas
18:12 < kanzure> good enough
18:12 < kanzure> but yeah, how much is "all"
18:13 < kanzure> have you been able to fit a fully fitted machine shop on your boat, and if so, how small are the tools or how large is the boat?
18:14 < katsmeow-afk> lathes, drill presses, power hand tools, arc welder, generators, 14 12v deep discharge batteries and ~3kw worth of standby power, 6 desktop putrs, etc,, that's about "all"
18:14 < katsmeow-afk> i have a Bridgeport miller base the neighbors have stopped me from even *touching* for years, it's got alot of rust on it now, prolly not worth bringing
18:15 < katsmeow-afk> i couldn't touch it, it's been sitting in the weather for 10 yrs, so i dodn't bother getting the powerhead or t-slot table,, but i got erverything else
18:16 < katsmeow-afk> the main hull will be ~8ft OD, ~45 ft long, the two outer 4ft OD hulls ~40ft long
18:16 < katsmeow-afk> lotta surface area on top, and enough below
18:18 < fenn> bridgeport is too big for a boat anyway, just a lot of unnecessary worry
18:18 < katsmeow-afk> i can build stuff, i know stuff, yet i cannot proove i can read or write
18:18 < fenn> you might have one of those text to speech to text programs
18:18 < fenn> with a cat translator attached to it
18:18 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, yea, i'd haveto center the darned thing way low too, as ballast, whioch i don't really need
18:19 < katsmeow-afk> text to speech and vice versa can't typo lik ei can :-P
18:22 < gene> heh you might want some satellite internet with that
18:23 < gene> and I just plan to go to new zealand
18:27 < kanzure> I wonder why Peter Thiel, for all of the good he thinks he's doing with Aubrey de Grey and SIAI, doesn't just pay to launch a satellite for free/open source projects communication
18:28 < kanzure> why doesn't stallman have a satellite yet, anyway?
18:28 < kanzure> wouldn't it help with his rants about freedom?
18:32 < fenn> i thought there were a number of HAM piggyback satellites
18:32 < fenn> HAM is sort of a weird culture though, but hopefully that will change with the morse code requirement being dropped
18:33 < fenn> what sort of impact would a satellite have anyway?
18:33 < fenn> a big one would be to enable sousveillance which is otherwise blocked by google etc
18:33 < katsmeow-afk> it's stilla good ole boy network tho, at local meetings *no one* talked to me
18:33 < fenn> yeah they are proud of doing things backwards and having a closed society
18:36 < fenn> http://perens.com/Articles/Morse.html
18:36 < fenn> a national ham radio organization in the U.S., felt that the ham frequencies would become saturated if many more people became hams. They asked FCC to raise the Morse code testing speed requirement to 12.5 words-per-minute, as this was felt to be difficult enough to keep most people out of ham radio.
18:37 < kanzure> hah. and the jerks that want to regulate diybio want to mimic the ham radio regulatory structure?
18:37 < fenn> if you can't make a system that works, legislate the problem away!
18:37 < kanzure> "you can't join unless you can pipette 12.5 test tubes per second"
18:37 < fenn> yeah "\
18:43 < gene> yeah, like politicians are even going to legalize us
18:44 < gene> if they even hear about us
18:44 < gene> we're screwed
18:44 < gene> we need to become unregulatable
18:44 < gene> just like the UAV people did
18:44 < gene> make resources so cheap that they can't stop us even if they pass laws
18:45 < gene> space shuttle launch today btw
18:46 < kanzure> my brother is watching it in florida
18:48 < fenn> you have a brother?
18:48 < kanzure> yes
18:48 < kanzure> Andrew
18:48 < gene> it's off
18:48 < gene> woohoo
18:49 < gene> saw a rocket launch from an airplane once
18:51 < fenn> i wish nasa tv wasn't such a pain
18:54 < katsmeow-afk> i got video somewhere of how to wreck a perfectly good C-130 with jato bottles
18:56 < katsmeow-afk> you strap them on with intent to use them sequentially as needed on touchdown to stop the plane on a 200ft runway, instead, fire them all at once while still 50ft in the air
18:56 < katsmeow-afk> the plane backs up a lil as it falls str8 down, snapping the wings off at the root
18:57 < gene> damn
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18:58 < gene> I could a sent you a special windows media 
18:58 < gene> stream
18:58 < gene> oh yeah
18:58 < gene>  I remembeer that one
18:58 < gene> for the iranian hostage rescure mission
18:58 < katsmeow-afk> yeas
18:59 < katsmeow-afk> they lost helos there too
19:00 < katsmeow-afk> it was like "how can we leave more wreckage and kill more of our own people, and theIranians not know about it till the next day?"
19:01 < gene> mms://68.142.251.51/md2enc045?StreamID=79597342&pl_auth=2b3167a6630594f48f2371ccdf9a03cf&ht= 120&pl_b=00D90C08885B60C5B3386F7F5549BD7B08&CG_ID=1368163
19:01 < gene> good stream
19:01 < katsmeow-afk> during Vietnam, they could have (and did)  grabbed the poeple without ever landing anything
19:01 < katsmeow-afk> stream of which?
19:02 < katsmeow-afk> pilot would unhook his chute after landing, hook a ballon, and a modified plane would snag the ballon and lift him off to home
19:03 < katsmeow-afk> it only worked then during the day,, and was like a large pointer to the pilot's location,, but by Iran-crisis time, it col dhave been done at nite  in downtown
19:04 < gene> well, balloon lift isn't very great for lot's of people
19:05 < katsmeow-afk> so they faint, makes for less screaming :-)
19:06 < gene> fainting isn't a problem
19:06 < katsmeow-afk> what's the problem?
19:06 < gene> it's the sheer amount of mass you have to move
19:06 < gene> balloons are good for a few people 
19:06 < gene> but not a whole crowd
19:06 < katsmeow-afk> nylon rope has a lot of give to it, and the transport plane is a multi ton anchor in the sky
19:07 < katsmeow-afk> the ballon doesn't lift, the baloon only gets th erope up where the plane can snag it
19:08 < fenn> gene you were obsessed about this exact same concept like a month ago
19:08 < gene> yeah
19:09 < gene> but i was talking about moving packages not people
19:09 < fenn> meh
19:10 < katsmeow-afk> returning satallites been snagged mid air the same way,, some didn't get caught <boom>
19:10 < fenn> spy planes?
19:10 < katsmeow-afk> satalites
19:10 < fenn> i dont get it
19:10 < katsmeow-afk> film, prior to digital camers
19:11 < fenn> the satellite de-orbits and then has a parachute line which the plane snags?
19:11 < katsmeow-afk> the film wasn't allowed to land, it was caught while still on parachute by plane
19:12 < katsmeow-afk> a returning payload capsule was done the same way a few yrs ago
19:12 < fenn> anyone know why they are spraying sparky liquid stuff at the shuttle engines?
19:12 < katsmeow-afk> one was missed on multiple passes, it hit the ground hard
19:12 < gene> heard about that
19:12 < gene> fenn to light them
19:12 < katsmeow-afk> to make sure they don't get pockets of unburned fuel uunder the rocket
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19:13 < katsmeow-afk> big cloud of H2 andO2 under there would wreck the astronauts' day
19:14 < katsmeow-afk> it must be lit off immeadiately before it collects
19:14 < katsmeow-afk> ergo, spray the entire area under th erocket with sparks
19:15 < katsmeow-afk> saw a delta (?) launch attempt once, there was a misfire, then a large billowy fireball all over the launch pad, and then the rocket detonated too
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19:18 < katsmeow-afk> we useto go out and watch Nike-Zeus and Nike-Ajax launches when i was a kid
19:18 < katsmeow-afk> part of ABM tests
19:21 < katsmeow-afk> the good ole days, not knowing who would use your icbm address to deliver a package
19:22 < katsmeow-afk> "it's a nuclear bomb! hide under your desk!"
19:40 < katsmeow-afk> tv news here is saying there's an 80% chance of good weather for the nasa launch tonite :-|
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19:44 < kanzure> I wonder how long I can stare at wxpython code until something happens.
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20:06 < kanzure> oh yay, window panes on toolbar objects are partially working now. just need to figure out how to resize the images. these are far larger than 96x96
20:07 < kanzure> hrm, maybe I shouldn't be using wx.DefaultPosition and wx.DefaultSize (or wx.Size for that matter- which doesn't seem to help?)
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20:50 < kanzure> hm, so only if I move the pane and then back to the original place does the 24x24 icon show
20:50 < kanzure> (this is after calling mogrify -resize 24x24 *.png on a copy of the heekscad bitmaps/ dir.)
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21:56 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/pythonocc/2009-03-15_2.png
21:57 < kanzure> I think it's failing to display the other pane ("tools"- file open/save stuff) because when it boots up it's all on one row, so it's outside of my screen viewing size
21:57 < kanzure> still doesn't explain the weird initialization state with no icons for anything .. that's another issue I guess?
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22:14 < fenn> you're rewriting heekscad in python?
22:15 < fenn> middle and right mouse is a bad idea
22:15 < fenn> you can already zoom with scroll wheel
22:15 < fenn> if you have no scroll wheel, get with it, it's 2009
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22:22 < fenn> kanzure: you're using kwrite, do you know about kate?
22:22 < fenn> it's like kwrite's older sister
22:23 < fenn> oh there it is, nevermind
22:29 < fenn> wow kde's standard icons are 67MB (50MB compressed)
22:31 < kanzure> yes, I involuntarily use kate from time to time when it "just happens"
22:32 < kanzure> I can't figure out why my menu bar isn't displaying.
22:32 < kanzure> hrm.
22:32 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/pythonocc/iviewer.py includes my modifications. The "m_toolBar" object isn't being displayed.
22:33 < kanzure> don't know if you can run pythonocc yet..
22:33 < fenn> no, i'll try compiling again
22:33 < kanzure> though it shouldn't matter, you could just strip it out since this is just the wx bullshit
22:33 < kanzure> well it's not entirely bullshit, but it is unpleasant
22:33  * kanzure was playing around with wxglade earlier today, feels impure
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22:34 < fenn> alright now why arent my emails getting through to pythonOCC list
22:34 < fenn> it worked last week
22:35 < fenn> 451 4.4.1 reply: read error from mail.gna.org.
22:35 < fenn> <pythonocc-users@gna.org>... Deferred: Connection timed out with mail.gna.org.
22:35 < kanzure> they have a weird reply-to setting on their mailserver
22:35 < kanzure> hah
22:35 < kanzure> okay, or that.
22:35 < fenn> i dont know what that means either
22:35 < kanzure> their mail server must have been down
22:35 < fenn> everyone else seems to be able to send messages
22:36 < fenn> it's been like this all today and at least part of yesterday
22:36 < kanzure> maybe it was down for the few minutes when your mail was actually being sent?
22:37 < fenn> er, huh?
22:37 < fenn> Checking whether c++ compiler "gcc" works...no
22:37 < fenn> Checking for C++ header file stdlib.h... no
22:38 < kanzure> they got up and walked away due to your neglect of stdlib.
22:38 < fenn> re: mail, no it says 'could not send message for last 18 hours'
22:38 < fenn> but i have libstdc++ 5 and 6
22:38 < kanzure> default installation paths?
22:38 < fenn> of course
22:40 < fenn> g++ -Wall -lstdc++ foo.c  doesn't give any errors
22:40 < fenn> wtf is scons doing
22:41 < kanzure> look for _INC in SConstruct I guess
22:42 < kanzure> I don't know if my notes are going to be helpful. I actually had a bit of a hard time with the last time I was using scons to install it on a lab box.
22:43 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/pythonocc/linux.install.readme.txt
22:46 < fenn> i saw something awesome at the grocery store today
22:47 < fenn> organic pancake batter in an aerosol can
22:47 < fenn> called "batter blasters"
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22:49 < fenn> oh man you have to watch their ad http://www.batterblaster.com/tv.html
22:54 < kanzure> "make a better breakfast faster, batter blaster"
22:54 < kanzure> yikes.
22:55 < kanzure> soo if I comment out one of my self._mgr.AddPane() lines, the m_toolBar object will display.
22:56 < kanzure> oh wait, no it won't.
23:01 < kanzure> maybe there's a max of 4 at a time? that's the max that shows up in heekscad, and it's the max that I'm getting.
23:01 < kanzure> hrm
23:01 < kanzure> but then why wouldn't they be kind enough to throw an error?
23:07 < fenn> re iviewer.py, that's a lot of global variables
23:07 < fenn> usually this is done by having an App class which holds all your state
23:07 < kanzure> oh, I should probably be using line 162~ and using 'nb' instead of 'tb'
23:08 < fenn> not that i have any idea what all that ID_ stuff is
23:08 < kanzure> that's from heeks' enum :)
23:08 < kanzure> various constants for interfacing with the wx event handler
23:08 < kanzure> (I think?)
23:09 < fenn> it should be wx.* then
23:12 < kanzure> some of them, are in fact, wx.* 
23:12 < kanzure> and many aren't.
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23:21 < gene> batter blasters are great
23:22 < xp_prg> you have a gene blaster?
23:22 < gene> no comment
23:23 < gene> yes
23:23 < gene> don't tell everyone though
23:24 < gene> so I need to find out if stainless steel gets eaten away if electrical current is applied
23:25 < xp_prg> I don't know
23:26 < gene> I want to make me a transcrainial DC stimulator
23:28 < gene> what's the best way to make an offline version of wikipedia for my laptop
23:29 < fenn> depends how much free space you have
23:31 < fenn> this looks like a good guide http://users.softlab.ece.ntua.gr/~ttsiod/buildWikipediaOffline.html
23:31 < kanzure> gene: there are links from mediawiki too
23:31 < kanzure> anywhere from 4 GB to 160 GB IIRC
23:32 < kanzure> also, I've been playing around with zotero, and it actually does grab PDFs with citations
23:32 < kanzure> so it's not that bad.
23:33 < fenn> ttp://www.wikitaxi.org/
23:34 < fenn> h+ :)
23:40 < fenn> how can there be no wikipedia torrent? srsly all you'd have to do is scrape the whole thing and put it in a torrent
23:41 < fenn> supposedly it's only about 420GB
23:43 < fenn> "It's worth noting that to crawl the whole site at one hit per second will take several weeks."
23:45 < gene> kanzure do you have a version of wikipedia?
23:47 < gene> on your mondo-huge drive
23:51 < gene> 71 gigs free
23:53 < gene> http://download.wikimedia.org/enwiki/
23:53 < gene> now which one to download
23:54 < kanzure> I might, but I've lost it
23:54 < kanzure> argh. so now the 'geometry bar' isn't displaying. wtf wx, wtf.
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23:54 < kanzure> this is worse than CSS.
23:57 < gene> at least it's not GOPHER
23:58 < kanzure> self._mgr.AddPane(self.tb, wx.aui.AuiPaneInfo().Name("View").Caption("View").ToolbarPane().Top().TopDockable(True).BottomDockable(True))
23:58 < kanzure> so if I comment that out, the geometry bar shows back up
23:58 < kanzure> even though that has nothing to do with the existence of the geometry bar
23:58 < kanzure> blah