--- Day changed Fri Mar 20 2009
00:01 < kanzure> (12:01:38 AM) Amy Sun: nah, we had some lawyers craft a "ok for personal and experimental use" generic thing
00:02 < gene> you know I don't even know if afghanistan has IP laws yet
00:03 < kanzure> I don't think you understand how backwards that is
00:06 < gene> hmmmm... I wonder if micronesia has IP laws
00:06 < fenn> what is wrong with standard licenses? why did they make their own license?
00:07 < kanzure> (12:02:24 AM) Amy Sun: as far as i'm told by the smari's of the world, nothing comprehensive exists
00:07 < kanzure> (12:05:27 AM) Amy Sun: no one i've ever met - that's academic, industry, defense, or hacker community - bats an eyelash to ask if they are allowed to use something
00:07 < kanzure> (12:06:35 AM) Amy Sun: it's like having a rigid schedule to follow at burning man
00:08 < fenn> it matters if i'm going to share designs based on your work
00:09 < fenn> copyright applies to publishing/distribution, not use
00:10 < kanzure> (12:10:12 AM) Amy Sun: you either keep a idea completely secret 'cause you're a dumbass and think that no one else could have that idea, or you get over it and start engaging with others
00:10 < kanzure> blah
00:10 < kanzure> she doesn't get it.
00:11 < fenn> it's about enabling people to take your idea and extend it
00:11 < fenn> if you have a custom license that restricts people's use to personal and experimental use only, you'll only get mediocre involvement from hobbyists (if that)
00:12 < fenn> it's really not even about ideas, it's infrastructure
00:12 < fenn> i can say "parametric associative solid modeler" but it doesn't mean I have one running in another window
00:12 < kanzure> :11 < fenn> it's about enabling people to take your idea and extend it
00:12 < kanzure> 00:11 < fenn> it's about enabling people to take your idea and extend it
00:12 < kanzure> (12:12:43 AM) Amy Sun: that'd be great if more than 3 people could agree on which license
00:12 < kanzure> blah
00:13 < fenn> any license
00:13 < kanzure> I told her that
00:13 < fenn> sorry to turn you into a transponder :\
00:13 < kanzure> (12:13:27 AM) Amy Sun: which license, bryan
00:13 < kanzure> what if I say GPL?
00:13 < gene> hey what chat app are you using kanzure?
00:13 < kanzure> go away
00:13 < kanzure> pidgin
00:14 < fenn> i think GPL is fine for fab lab's mission
00:14 < fenn> i dont understand MIT's insistence on non-commercial-use licenses for everything
00:15 < kanzure> (12:14:53 AM) Amy Sun: not all people, and it turns out there are open * people that are vehemently against some part of the GPL
00:15 < kanzure> (12:15:08 AM) Amy Sun: I can't tell you what, i just know they flooded my inbox and have all kinds of chats with each other about it
00:15 < fenn> you can't please all of the people all of the time
00:15 < kanzure> right
00:15 < kanzure> (12:15:35 AM) Amy Sun: no, i'm letting any maker chose their own thing
00:15 < kanzure> (12:15:48 AM) Amy Sun: that's what's in our charter, if you come in a lab we don't inflict anything on you
00:16 < kanzure> (12:16:04 AM) Amy Sun: if we fund your project, we give up the right to inflict anything on you
00:16 < fenn> ok whatever, i'm talking about hired programmers that are writing fablab software
00:16 < fenn> is that different?
00:17 < fenn> stuff like cad.py
00:17 < fenn> or fablib
00:17 < kanzure> (12:17:32 AM) Amy Sun: we don't have anything that we're releasing that's code only
00:17 < kanzure> (12:17:40 AM) Amy Sun: we = larger fab projects
00:18 < kanzure> (12:18:03 AM) Amy Sun: everything i know of, like cad.py or whatever, has been licensed however the author(s) wanted
00:21 < fenn> i want to force (yes force) anyone who creates a derivative of my mechanical designs to publish their code and/or cad files, but it's not possible in the current US legal system AFAIK
00:22 < fenn> i don't see why a circuit board should qualify but a laser cut piece of acrylic does not
00:23 < fenn> I want standard licenses for hardware designs just like in software
00:23 < fenn> hmm i worded that wrong , i dont care if someone makes things for personal use without redistributing their code, it's when they are redistributing the physical objects themselves that they have to redistribute the code
00:23 < kanzure> fenn, why do they have to care about licenses?
00:24 < kanzure> I mean, ultimately?
00:24 < fenn> they == MIT and friends?
00:24 < kanzure> why does anyone with a fablab have to care about licenses
00:24 < fenn> because it lets you know what you are allowed to do
00:24 < kanzure> what if they just do it
00:24 < kanzure> and then they build a super laser and kill you if you speak up
00:25 < fenn> then you are at risk for getting sued and have no defense
00:25 < kanzure> sued? they'll just build a machine gun and kill your lawyers
00:25 < fenn> try building a machine gun, i dare you
00:25 < kanzure> well, suppose the design files are out there :)
00:25 < fenn> they are, i almost bought the book
00:25 < gene> I believe there is an open source machine gun
00:25 < gene> no it's no the Ak47
00:25 < fenn> its a smooth bore SMG
00:26 < fenn> fires 22 caliber i believe
00:26 < gene> hmm... why no use a motor to spin the bullet up
00:26 < fenn> anyway, guns are not much use against tanks and cruise missiles
00:27 < fenn> and we dont really want to get into a war over copyrights do we?
00:27 < fenn> i mean really
00:27 < gene> yeah but you could make a [REDACTED]
00:27 < kanzure> well supposedly the only people that would be involved would be those that are really into this 'just give it away' stuff
00:27 < fenn> you dont get any advantage from copyright-free society until you have a whole heck of a lot of people participating
00:29 < fenn> kanzure: not everyone in a fablab will "just give everything away" as we've seen from amy's "non commercial use" license
00:30 < kanzure> (12:30:12 AM) Amy Sun: i'm looking for hundreds of thousands of $ to send people off to do fabulous things in various ways, running a lab in a freaking war zone, and doing a phd...  licensing stuff is really really low on my list of thing I care about
00:30 < fenn> fair enough
00:31 < gene> start development on laser force fields
00:31 < gene> or AB domes
00:31 < kanzure> (12:31:34 AM) Amy Sun: spekaing of which, we're funding undergrad proposals to have the mobile lab go to places in the lower 48 and do stuff
00:31 < gene> domes for protection against missiles
00:32 < gene> real easy and cheap to make
00:32 < kanzure> (12:32:19 AM) Amy Sun: technically you'll have to find an mit undergrad collaborator 'cause most of tmoney will have "mit ugrad involvemnt" strings
00:33 < gene> wait, Amy's from Mit?
00:33 < kanzure> yes
00:33 < kanzure> all fablab people are
00:34 < kanzure> heh: "come down here to austin so that we can rip off your epilog laser cutter"
00:34 < kanzure> (12:34:17 AM) Amy Sun: oops did i fail to mention that we'll put priority on proposals that involve some audience/community and basically make it necessary for the lab to go to them instead of you to the lab
00:35 < fenn> i dont think mobile fablab can really help us, beyond showing how things should be done
00:35 < fenn> limited time access to tools.. i can buy that locally from a job shop
00:36 < fenn> i would have a backlog of jobs for a laser cutter but I DONT HAVE THE SOFTWARE
00:37 < fenn> specifically a timing pulley outline script
00:37 < kanzure> http://scripts.mit.edu/~emu/fab/?p=1152
00:38 < kanzure> http://scripts.mit.edu/~emu/fab/?p=1198
00:39 < fenn> now that is cool
00:39 < fenn> progress towards a self replicating fab (well, replicating from cheap commodities at least)
00:40 < gene> fabs that can build fabs that can build fabs
00:40 < gene> sweet
00:40 < fenn> i made some chip programmers for the robotics club and they were the single most useful project there
00:40 < kanzure> they didn't have burners/flashers?
00:41 < fenn> i guess that says more about how sucky the club was than anything :P
00:41 < fenn> the commercial burners didnt work right
00:41 < fenn> there were several models to choose from too
00:41 < kanzure> (12:41:21 AM) Amy Sun: feel free to come to me with mostly-fully-baked ideas
00:41 < kanzure> (12:41:39 AM) Amy Sun: if we can't help directly, we mightbe able to point you to grant sources
00:42 < gene> chip burners?
00:42 < gene> burn wires into the chips?
00:42 < kanzure> no, microcontroller programmers
00:42 < kanzure> you have to send the program to it
00:42 < gene> it makes the program permanent correct?
00:42 < kanzure> "permanent"
00:43 < fenn> plz add http://www.ladyada.net/make/usbtinyisp/ to the DIY electronics bench
00:43 < gene> runs faster that way I hear
00:46 < fenn> gene you're thinking ASIC vs FPGA which is a totally different issue
00:47 < fenn> microcontrollers that use flash for program instructions are rate limited by the time to load data from the flash memory (compared to an equivalent ram-based processor)
00:47 < gene> ok
00:47 < gene> corrected
00:48 < fenn> what does she mean 'come to me with ideas'?
00:49 < gene> build an AB dome!
00:50 < gene> let me pull the paper from arxiv
00:50 < fenn> the electron gas thing?
00:51 < gene> no, but by the same guy
00:51 < gene> http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0802/0802.1871.pdf
00:52 < fenn> oh yes i remember this
00:52 < fenn> ball bearings right
00:52 < gene> this might work better for protecting the fab lab
00:52 < gene> http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0802/0802.0315.pdf
00:53 < gene> this would work better for protecting the city around the fablab
00:53 < fenn> different paper, same idea
00:53 < fenn> i was reading something about defense from nuclear ICBM's
00:53 < gene> very different idea
00:54 < fenn> using an inflatable dome with ball bearings attached
00:54 < gene> same idea as last paper
00:54 < gene> well on the the first paper you've got weird net things
00:54 < gene> not inflatable
00:54 < gene> or is it?
00:54 < fenn> he doesnt say anything about nuclear weapons though
00:55 < gene> same basic principle
00:55 < gene> I love to see one of these IRL
00:56 < fenn> 1) get some tefzel film
00:56 < fenn> 2) inflate
00:56 < fenn> did i miss anything?
00:57 < gene> I don't think so
00:57 < gene> that's the basic Idea
00:58 < gene> or something like that
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01:00 < fenn> huh? fablab.af projects is password protected?
01:01 < fenn> http://scripts.mit.edu/~emu/fab/?page_id=868
01:05 < fenn> heh "undo send" for gmail
01:05 < fenn> now THAT's innovation!
01:06 < fenn> now we just need an undo for CNC
01:07 < fenn> and trailer parks
01:09 < gene> undo CNC is what some reprap people are trying to do
01:11 < fenn> sweet, the new pythonocc script caches swig operations
01:16 < kanzure> fenn: I sent an email about how to implement that to the mailing list
01:16 < kanzure> so yeah.
01:17 < gene> hmmmm... it's early in afghanistan
01:23 < fenn> now the build is dying on g++ BRepBlend_wrap.cc and i cant seem to get an error message out of g++
01:23 < fenn> it just dies silently
01:24 < fenn> oh heh, no space left on device
01:25 < fenn> i guess i should buy a hard drive now that i have some money
01:27 < fenn> oh sure now it gives me the error
01:37 < kanzure> heh. I've found a good use for all of those finger prints on scotch tape.
01:37 < kanzure> I wonder how wide these lines are.
01:38 < fenn> now you just need to genetically engineer fluidic fingerprints
01:38 < fenn> ...or something
01:41 < kanzure> I'm not sure if CD patterning works.
01:42 < kanzure> I mean, with the 0.2 micron microchannels
01:42 < kanzure> guess I'll have to bring in this piece of tape+sharpie+CD thingy to the lab's scope
01:49 < kanzure> http://hackaday.com/2005/05/01/making-new-fingerprints/
01:50 < kanzure> oh, an original
01:50 < kanzure> "The goal is to get an exact image of the fingerprint, for further use as mold, out of which the dummy is made. The easiest way is to print the image on a transparency slide (the ones normally used for an overhead projector) with a laser printer. The toner forms a relief, which is later used similar to letter press printing. Wood glue is suitable for producing the dummy (Figure 7)"
01:50 < kanzure> http://www.ccc.de/biometrie/fingerabdruck_kopieren.xml?language=en
01:52 < kanzure> so you're printing it out anyway
01:55 < gene> oh saw that
01:55 < gene> thinking of making me some ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US PRINTS just for the lulz
02:00 < gene> 0.2 micron eh?
02:01 < gene> hmmm.... I'd like to see how small one could make a fluidic amplifier with channels that size....
02:01 < gene> 0.2 micron is about the size of old transistors on an old IC
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09:16 < kanzure> "the google founder's wife started 23andme, Esther is the venture capitalist who invested in them + she is behind space commercialization efforts/some of Diamandis projects"
09:17 < kanzure> fuuuck
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11:37 < bkero> Yea
11:37 < bkero> You didn't know that?
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16:12 < kanzure_> Hello world.
16:12 < kanzure_> Geir Helleloid suggests looking into 'convergence accelerators' but otherwise keeps away from partial differential equations.
16:14 < gene> hey kanzure figure out what this means:
16:14 < gene> http://www.whatsinthebox.nl/anti.jpg
16:14 < gene> part of an ARG
16:15 < kanzure_> gah, a triple integral?
16:15 < kanzure_> do I have to?
16:15 < gene> is it really a triple integral?
16:15 < gene> from -n to n?
16:15 < gene> or is it technobabble?
16:15 < kanzure_> yes, there is such thing as a triple integral if that's what you ask
16:16 < gene> the ABS things and -n to n freaked me out though
16:16 < gene> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU_reTt7Hj4&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fgadgets.boingboing.net%2F2009%2F03%2F20%2Fshort-film-whats-in.html&feature=player_embedded
16:16 < gene> related to this
16:17 < gene> www.whatsinthebox.nl 
16:19 < gene> all links are somehow related
16:20 < gene> it could be an ARG
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17:07 < fenn> interesting way to make a TV display http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nipkow_disk
17:07 < fenn> perhaps a good use for photochemical milling?
17:08 < gene_> hmmmmm....
17:08 < gene_> make a nipkow disk with a nipkow disk?
17:12 < fenn> not enough resolution
18:04 < bkero> http://socghop.appspot.com/org/show/google/gsoc2009/opencog
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18:45 < kanzure_> Any help on gnome themes? I'm trying to get the taskbar to work like it does on my KDE installations, but the font isn't easily configurable via gconftools-2 or the other obvious configuration panels.
19:23 < kanzure_> heh. watching some television. one of the commercials was for a vehicle, and they were demonstrating musical notes being played by traveling down a road with bumps at specific intervals
19:23 < kanzure_> I guess that says more about their crappy suspension than anything else?
19:29 < gene_> hahahahaha
19:30 < gene_> THEIR MIND CONTROL BEAMS CLEAR DO NOT WORK ON US, AS WE STILL RETAIN LOGIC WHILST WATCHING TV
19:34 < kanzure_> but still, that does sound like a fun hack to do. i.e., making different sounds based off of gratings but tuned to different types of tires or crappy cars?
19:34 < kanzure_> "warning: your car sucks"
19:41 < bkero> Until the car rattles apart
19:50 < fenn> i wish les' cat had a RFID tag
19:51 < fenn> there was a strip of highway in new mexico (?) that played a song as you drove on it, but eventually the neighbors went crazy and got it removed
19:53 < kanzure_> how hard is potassium hydroxide (KOH) to obtain?
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19:56 < kanzure_> huh, nevermind
19:56 < kanzure_> I'm reading a paper on carbon nanotube actuators
19:57 < kanzure_> in electrolyte solutions. one of the solutions that they worked with was just salt.
19:57 < kanzure_> and then a sheet (3 mm x 20 mm x 20 to 50 microns thick) of carbon nanotube paper (obtained via vacuum filtration of an item bought from some random CNT provider company)
19:58 < kanzure_> they apparently worked with some scotch tape on that step
19:58 < kanzure_> anywho, when you run a dc potential of about ~1 volt, "a deflection of about a centimeter was observed"
19:59 < gene_> potassium hydroxide
19:59 < gene_> hmmm...
19:59 < gene_> it's easy to obtain in nature, but IRL there are some issues
19:59 < kanzure_> "when a square wave potential was applied, oscillation was visually observed up to at least 15 Hz as the actuator pushed the electrolyte back and forth"
19:59 < kanzure_> it's ok, salt will do fine
19:59 < kanzure_> screw the KOH
19:59 < gene_> 15 HZ wow!
20:00 < kanzure_> "up to at least" :)
20:00 < kanzure_> how is that "up to"
20:00 < kanzure_> if they mean to say "at least"
20:00 < kanzure_> hrm
20:01 < kanzure_> that's with graphite nanotubes, btw. which sounds promising to me, except that most nanotube synthesis formulas that I remember reading are hideously complex in the sense that they require gas chambers and gas chambers tend to explode if you're an idiot
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20:17 < kanzure_> Jonah Lehrer, "The Brain, Revealed: With Custom Built Robots and Assembly-Line
20:17 < kanzure_> Efficiency, Scientists at the Allen Brain Institute Are Creating an Atlas of the Human Mind,
20:17 < kanzure_> Mapping Every Gene and Neuron in Our Most Complex Organ," Wired Magazine,
20:17 < kanzure_> Vol. 11, No. 4, pp. 88-95,118 (April 2009).
20:18 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Giant-Stroke,%20Superelastic%20Carbon%20Nanotube%20Aerogel%20Muscles%20-%202009%20-%20Baughman.pdf
20:18 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Carbon%20Nanotube%20Actuators%20-%201999.pdf
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20:51 < kanzure_> someone with too much money: "rapid prototyping of 3D structures from multiwalled carbon nanotube forests by selective laser sintering"
20:56 < fenn> why is that too much money? sounds like a good idea to me
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21:00 < kanzure_> I guess I'm just seeing a lot of buzzword papers
21:00 < kanzure_> people like to jump on the CNT bandwagon
21:00 < fenn> CNT's are pretty amazing
21:01 < kanzure_> back in 2007 I knew more about CNTs than I do now
21:01 < kanzure_> do you remember the list of different manufacturing processes?
21:01 < fenn> i wouldnt call what they did "rapid prototyping" or "selective laser sintering"
21:01 < kanzure_> all I'm seeing now is chemical vapor deposition processes, but I'm sure there's more
21:02 < fenn> there used to be some soot-purification methods but i guess they're too expensive and yield the same result
21:02 < fenn> lots of ways to make soot
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21:08 < kanzure_> oh, there was one way that I remember reading about using STMs to manufacture single CNTs between the tip and the surface
21:08 < kanzure_> but that was for making a single nanotube at a time.
21:08 < kanzure_> I guess if you have an array of tips and you run a current through all of them at once you can do it in parallel
21:08 < kanzure_> but you'd really have to have a lot of tips :/
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21:09 < kanzure_> there was another recent paper that I read where someone (probably Kuhp) assembled nanopillars by a monolayer array of somewhat larger nanospheres
21:09 < kanzure_> so in between the nanospheres were the areas that the pillars would emerge or be layered (etc.)
21:10 < kanzure_> however, I don't think this is all electrically active since you'd need a separate way of addressing all of them to turn them into a giant parallel STM tip surface thingy for the CNT synthesis method
21:18 < fenn> what if you had a nanotube forest instead of one tip
21:19 < fenn> or does the tip have to be a certain material?
21:24 < fenn> February 8, 2005 - Lamina Ceramics today announced it has developed an ultra-high lumen LED white light engine 14 times brighter than any previously demonstrated white light LED array. The 28,000 lumen solid-state device is 5 inches square and is powered by 1,400 watts.
21:24 < fenn> must be water cooled
22:04 < gene_> what's a light engine?
22:04 < gene_> heck if they make LED arrays that bright I want em in something that can pump a laser
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22:12 < fenn> just use a diode laser
22:14 < gene_> diode laser?
22:15 < fenn> that's right
22:16 < gene_> well you see lockheed martin made a super high power laser using a LED array pumped block of YAG
22:18 < fenn> sweet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Laser_diode_array.jpg
22:18 < gene_> that's not it
22:19 < fenn> i don't care
22:19 < fenn> YAG is YAG
22:19 < fenn> it's either arc pumped or diode pumped
22:20 < fenn> they use HID lamps right?
22:20 < fenn> for some reason you need RF current
22:20 < gene_> huh?
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22:22 < fenn> i will ask next time i talk to the laser guy
22:23 < fenn> RF Excited Krypton Arc Lamps for Pumping Nd: YAG Lasers
22:23 < fenn> the answers are within your reach
22:23 < gene_> flashlamp
22:24 < fenn> ah here we go
22:24 < fenn> The baseline assumption is that an electrodeless lamp should exhibit substantially improved lifetime and reliability over a dc arc lamp
22:24 < fenn> Radio frequency energy is coupled into the annular lamp from an induction coil
22:25 < gene_> cool
22:25 < fenn> that was from 1974
22:25 < fenn> so it would make sense that an old laser cutter would use that technology
22:26 < gene_> heh ruby lasers are cool
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22:54 < kanzure_> whee, I like how I get no support from ##gnome
22:54 < kanzure_> (it's probably not the official channel, but still)
22:55 < fenn> irc is useless for anything moderately popular
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23:22 < kanzure_> it's just very idle tonight
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23:29 < fenn> i'm feeling the same way
23:29 < fenn> dammit why don't i have a fab lab yet
23:32 < gene_> hmmm... I wonder if I could get away with electroetching in my dorm room....
23:32 < gene_> kanzure could you find out if sharpie ink is nonconductive?
23:41 < kanzure_> drat, I don't have my ohm meter with me
23:41 < gene_> I need to find mine so I can carry it around in my back pack
23:41 < kanzure_> hm. carbon arc plasma via sucrose + 30 volts + 20 amps over a 0.5 mm gap between two copper electrodes.
23:41 < kanzure_> (to produce CNTs)
23:42 < kanzure_> (acqueous sucrose)
23:42 < gene_> efficiency?
23:43 < kanzure_> 20% purity yielding 7 mg/min when the medium is salt instead of sucrose
23:43 < kanzure_> that doesn't really say much on efficiency though
23:43 < kanzure_> what is your measure/definition of efficiency in this situation?
23:43 < gene_> sweet
23:43 < gene_> mass in vs mass nanotubes out
23:43 < gene_> IE how much crap isn't nanotubes
23:43 < kanzure_> fenn: I'm still surprised that the osh bank stuff got into wired
23:44 < kanzure_> the urge to just bullshit my way on to wired.com is very strong
23:44 < kanzure_> but it's kind of pointless without having substantial that actaully works
23:44 < kanzure_> *actually
23:44 < kanzure_> gene_: a lot of the crap isn't going to be nanotubes.
23:44 < kanzure_> they sometimes call these things "carbon onions"
23:44 < gene_> is 20% of the stuff that's with the nanotubes nanotubes?
23:45 < fenn> 20% isnt that good
23:45 < kanzure_> "we found that a 90 degree angle between the two electrodes produces the highest yield"
23:45 < fenn> really, that's weird
23:45 < gene_> very odd
23:45 < kanzure_> "The highest yield and the best quality were obtained when a mixture of ferrocene–nickelocene was used as catalyst and xylene as carbon source."
23:46 < fenn> maybe there's some kind of vortex that's created
23:46 < fenn> like a z-pinch electrode
23:46 < kanzure_> plasma vortex dynamics!
23:46 < kanzure_> quick, write a draft and submit it to arxiv!
23:46 < fenn> maybe we'll make it to wired
23:46 < gene_> plasma vortex amplifier?
23:46 < gene_> osh bank?
23:46 < kanzure_> I wouldn't bother asking about the osh bank
23:46 < fenn> nickelocene sounds dangerous
23:46 < kanzure_> why, because of the -cene ?
23:46 < gene_> it is
23:47 < fenn> dunno, reminds me of nickel carbonyl
23:48 < gene_> You know many organic chemists tend to die of horrible nasty cancers
23:48 < gene_> I think they are one and the same fenn
23:48 < kanzure_> another way that they do the arc-discharge-in-water method for CNT synthesis is by using two graphite electrodes
23:48 < kanzure_> so the carbon is supplied by the graphite electrodes
23:48 < kanzure_> it's too bad that I'm not as hip on my electronics as I should be
23:48 < kanzure_> how am I going to come up with 30 volts and 20 amps in a circuit?
23:49 < gene_> oops they aren't fenn my bad
23:49 < gene_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickelocene
23:49 < gene_> cool molecule
23:50 < fenn> well at least it doesn't have carbon monoxide groups stuck to it
23:51 < kanzure_> "Carbon onions with hydrophilic characteristics were synthesized through irradiating carbon black suspension using millisecond pulsed laser at room temperature. Laser energy absorption resulted in the structure transformation of carbon black and the formation of hydrophilic groups on the surface of carbon onion. Carbon onions with hollow cores and the incomplete graphitic shells were produced from the starting materials under high 
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23:59 < fenn>  “I may look like a scientist but I’m actually also a ninja”