--- Day changed Thu Mar 26 2009
00:03 < wrldpc> yes
00:04 < gene> cool, who is he?
00:20 < wrldpc> he runs geekdad.com
00:21 < wrldpc> s/he runs/he sometimes contributes to
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01:25 < fenn> graph/object visualization: http://nodebox.net/code/index.php/Graph
01:27 < fenn> made for mac >:\
01:30 < fenn> "Lots of people tend to think that God, and science, are very, very big. But not as big as Harry Potter."
01:31 < fenn> oo a web interface http://nodebox.net/perception/
01:31 < fenn> these guys are tearing graphsynth a new asshole
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01:38 < fenn> i wonder what the dataset is - wordnet?
01:43 < fenn> "In the case of our example graph, life is more important than anything. Other important things (the darker nodes) are money, security, health, fitness, love, experience and attitude."
01:43 < fenn> apparently they pulled that analysis out of a bunch of natural language text
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02:28 < fenn> well that was certainly quick and easy to get going: http://imagebin.org/42947
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02:57 < fenn> kurzweil eat your heart out: http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=95491  that's a virtual companion if i ever saw one
03:04 < fenn> "This is my first post on Blender Artists" geeez
03:53 < fenn> i'm always amazed when these things actually work http://imagebin.org/42966
03:54 < fenn> so far for an "os x only" application it's been quite easy
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05:00 < fenn> Maid San is seriously fun to play around with
05:00 < fenn> I've never seen such a well rigged model
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06:05 < fenn> http://imagebin.org/43075 i think i'm getting the hang of it
06:06 < fenn> .. and then i click 'render' and it blows away all my changes
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07:05 < fenn> and bouncing back to nodebox again i'll leave you with flower generators and people generators http://ludivinelechat.be/Latifolia.html http://ludivinelechat.be/Modular_body.html
07:54 < kanzure> should I know who Maid San is?
08:04 < kanzure> is she Hand Maid May?
08:29 < kanzure> re: virtual companion. Joseph and I were talking about some software for that. He thinks it would be very profitable.
08:29 < kanzure> and then some of my background in automatic story generation (rougelikes, etc.) might make that interesting (or not)
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11:27 < kanzure> a study of how bryan wastes his time from year to year: http://heybryan.org/school/neurocomparison.html
11:27 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/school/Biology/3-25-06,%20Protozoa%20Expedition%20Plan%20-%20real.html
11:27 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/school/Biology/notes/03-27-07,%20Biology%20presentation%20notes.html
11:27 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/school/Psychology/2008-03-24.html
11:27 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/school/Psychology/2009-03-24.html
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11:36 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/How_bryan_wastes_his_time
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11:58 < kanzure> http://replicatorinc.com/blog/abou/
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12:17 < kanzure> woah
12:17 < kanzure> neat
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14:00 < kanzure> what determines whether or not two parts will fit together? is it tension?
14:10 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Modeling%20and%20Simulation%20of%20the%20Assembly%20of%20Snap%20Joints.pdf
14:11 < kanzure> pg 2 has a great model of snap joints in terms of a stiffness matrix for insertion and removal
14:18 < kanzure> heh, 'ComPlier' is a "pair of pliers" (not really a pair) using compliant joints (a q-joint), made from a single piece of metal
14:35 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Effort%20Flow%20Analysis%20-%20Force%20Flow%20Analysis.pdf
14:36 < kanzure> see page 103, figure 4.7. An odd way to go about doing this. I'm not sure if Greer is going to go into how to calculate whether or not two parts will become dislodged or their connection otherwise broken..
14:39 < kanzure> strain-displacement law, stress-strain law (Material Constitutive Relationship), equations of equilibrium (force or stress)
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15:23 < kanzure> hah
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15:49 < wrldpc_> http://cgi.cse.unsw.edu.au/~wyos/skyrails/
15:50 < wrldpc_> network vis
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15:59 < willPow3r> pretty neat
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16:06 < willPow3r> does it run on linux?
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16:37 < kanzure> http://designexplorer.net/
16:39 < kanzure> http://www.axelkilian.com/newscreens/nmm/final/finaljoint/jointmatrix.html Final results from joint exploration and optimization in CATIA, OCTAVE, and EXCEL
16:40 < kanzure> http://www.axelkilian.com/projectpages/prototyping.html
17:10 < wrldpc_> I think so, Will.
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17:16 < kanzure> fenn: do you know about 'tab and slot'?
17:17 < kanzure> something about 'friction fit'
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17:23 < gene> heh you told fenn about the parts?
17:24 < kanzure> no?
17:24 < kanzure> wait, what?
17:30 < gene> the things that don't fit
17:31 < gene> got my laptop fixed
17:32 < gene> it seems different...
17:32 < gene> like a new implant
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17:38 < gene> btw, how can I get me an MEA implant like captain cyborg?
17:42 < kanzure> heh heh http://ddf.mit.edu/people/index.html I was right, Dan Smithwick (Physical Design Co.) is listed as 'people' at that lab
17:43 < gene> ???
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17:52 < kanzure> http://www.universaljointdesign.com/wwwcms/welcome.php?menu=135&submenu=209&subsubmenu=313
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18:00 < gene_> http://www.prometheus2.net/
18:00 < gene_> a fusion reactor that might work
18:04 < gene_> http://www.prometheus2.net/ICC_2002_POSTER.pdf
18:07 < gene_> also works as a nice EMP gun unfortunately
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18:44 < fenn> plasma cannon, not EMP gun
18:48 < kanzure> fenn: friction joint? yes? no?
18:49 < fenn> that's some lasercut acrylic crap no?
18:49 < kanzure> I don't know
18:49 < kanzure> I'm asking you :)
18:49 < kanzure> all of this physicaldesignco stuff is apparently using friction joints
18:49 < fenn> i have no idea what the context is
18:49 < kanzure> but none of the papers I've read from the MIT site (super secretive about it) does mathematical modeling of friction joints
18:49 < kanzure> eh, have you read my latest OM email?
18:50 < fenn> no
18:50 < kanzure> addendum to that email: the shape grammar for the wood designs- http://heybryan.org/books/papers/wood_shape_grammar-Sass.png
18:50  * fenn goes back to puttering around the house for a while
18:50 < kanzure> anyway, you upload a CAD file,
18:50 < kanzure> they spit out a kit with instructions on how to build your thingy
18:50 < kanzure> (particularly for architecture)
18:51 < gene_> fenn, it's a plasma cannon that is an EMP gun
18:51 < gene_> I don't believe it
18:51 < gene_> all the "gears" in my dynamics book don't have real gear profiles
18:52 < kanzure> hah
18:52 < kanzure> yeah, so the lab guys told me to make the gear visualizer just draw cylinders
18:52 < kanzure> without teeth
18:52 < kanzure> :-/
18:52 < gene_> well it's a bit more truthful
18:52 < kanzure> hah
18:52 < gene_> looks less cooler though
18:53 < kanzure> fenn: it works with CNC cut materials too.
18:53 < kanzure> gene_: do you know how to do discrete PDEs? 
18:54 < gene_> if the picture show that they are cogs I could make an argument to my dynamics teacher that I can't answer the question because gear tooth is wrong
18:54 < kanzure> I've only ever done continuous PDEs for surfaces and volumes
18:54 < gene_> uh I did why?
18:54 < kanzure> do you know how? just the basic 'how' (not the whole thing)
18:54 < gene_> I might be able to
18:55 < kanzure> I'm considering it from the perspective of figuring out some of the partial derivatives of a finite surface (from a CAD file- which is not defined by a continuous mathematical function..)
18:55 < gene_> I think I totally forgot what I learned in diff eq
18:55 < gene_> I forgot to make backups
19:02 < kanzure> woah, 
19:02 < kanzure> http://diybio.org/2009/03/15/this-week-in-diybio-match-15-2009-edition/
19:02 < kanzure> forrest mims replied
19:03 < gene_> who's forrest mims?
19:04 < kanzure> electronics demigod
19:04 < kanzure> http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php?f=1151 "first name basis" heh
19:13 < nsh> Forrest Mimms: intelligent-design advocate
19:13 < nsh> (and part-time non-retard)
19:14 < nsh> writing for his journal may lead to high irony-factor publications
19:15 < nsh> *mims
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21:09 < kanzure> fenn: thanks.
21:10 < kanzure> your email didn't wrap.
21:12 < fenn> didn't wrap?
21:13 < kanzure> usually you use a 72 to 80 char line width
21:13 < kanzure> your client does, at least
21:13 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference_fit <- is useful. thanks for the reference too.
21:14 < kanzure> is 'amount of interference (distance)' == 'allowance' ?
21:14 < fenn> looks wrapped to me http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/d563adc00341b0f7
21:14 < kanzure> hrm.
21:16 < gene> what distance is it kanzure
21:16 < gene> could we do it with the parts?
21:16 < fenn> btw (reference from that wikipedia article) this is a pretty awesome resource http://claymore.engineer.gvsu.edu/~jackh/eod/manufact/
21:16 < fenn> "engineer on a disk"
21:17 < fenn> if you are trying to do press fit with acrylic, i'd advise against it
21:18 < fenn> acrylic likes to crack unless everything is perfect
21:18 < kanzure> where'd you get the idea of someone trying to do press fit with acrylic?
21:18 < fenn> you had some acrylic thing machined a week ago
21:18 < fenn> also, the MIT fablab people love to make press-fit tabs on their craft crap
21:19 < fenn> like the oomlout wire stripper
21:20 < kanzure> the physicaldesignco guy (Dan Smithwick) is doing human-inhabitable architecture with press-fit tabs-and-slot connections.
21:20 < kanzure> I'm not seeing any clue as to whether or not they know their max load and so on
21:21 < kanzure> in one of their papers, their demo for a graph grammar technique was a string that assembled into the following sentence: "THE ARCHITECTS SUED THE ENGINEERS"
21:21 < kanzure> I don't think they have much respect for engineers :)
21:23 < fenn> their loss
21:24 < fenn> there's more to a house than a plywood wall anyway
21:24 < kanzure> http://ddf.mit.edu/projects/CABIN/index.html
21:24 < kanzure> that's their "instant cabin" project
21:25  * kanzure watches http://ddf.mit.edu/projects/CABIN/images/DDFG_House_Computer_Model.wmv
21:28  * kanzure watches http://ddf.mit.edu/projects/CABIN/images/DDFG_House_Construction.wmv
21:31 < fenn> looks like a huge pain in the ass to me
21:31 < kanzure> go figure: http://mit.edu/yourhouse/press1.html it cites physicaldesignco. yep. yay for people being in bed together.
21:31 < fenn> of course they are the same people
21:32 < fenn> what did you expect?
21:32 < kanzure> little gnomes assembling houses for me?
21:32 < fenn> er, yah, of course..
21:32 < kanzure> but really, what's so bad about it being a pain in the ass?
21:32 < kanzure> you get instructions tailored to the specific design
21:32 < fenn> WTF
21:32 < kanzure> even conceivably "Maid May" walk through videos
21:33 < fenn> avoiding work is THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT
21:33 < kanzure> isn't this much less work though?
21:33 < kanzure> I've never built a house
21:34 < kanzure> it's the "kit" idea. 
21:34 < fenn> if you have a CAD design, the appropriate materials (pre-cut) and tools, it can go together just as fast
21:34 < fenn> they're comparing a kit car to a horse drawn carriage
21:34 < kanzure> yes, but we don't have a way to automatically generate instructions for random assembly files
21:34 < fenn> when they should be competing against like, a ford taurus or something
21:36 < kanzure> I think the model here would be to have a bin of legos that you select from to build something that you print out the instructions for
21:37 < kanzure> except instead of legos it's pre-cut materials that fit together in some standardized way 
21:39 < gene> synsects might be better than gnomes
21:39 < kanzure> although falling into the 'standard interconnect' trap of doom is probably a bad idea
21:40 < kanzure> the algorithm largely works only on single structures, just rigid bodies, so it wouldn't make sense to suddenly change construction type half-way through (would it?)
21:43 < gene> hmm... standard interconnect
21:43 < kanzure> .. would be awesome if it worked for support structures/frameworks for other tools. that would be more appropriate.
21:43 < gene> automatic construction+ automatic resource requsition+ automatic design= ever expanding house that eats up continents
21:48 < kanzure> hm, a tensegrity graph grammar
21:50 < gene> speaking of tensegrity I want a fullair
21:52 < fenn> one thing annoys me about these generative grammar people is they totally ignore the concept of min-a-max
21:53 < kanzure> http://radio.weblogs.com/0119080/stories/2003/02/04/galleryMinamaxAndOtherSpac.html
21:53 < kanzure> "documenting a personal quest for non-toxic housing"
21:53 < kanzure> eric?
21:53 < fenn> yeah that's how i found it, he rants about it all the time
21:53 < fenn> the info isn't online, still need to OCR those scans
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21:54 < fenn> min-a-max = legos for construction + triangulation
21:55 < fenn> somehow they forgot to tell the architects that a cube isn't a stable structure
21:55 < kanzure> is this how you were thinking of moving large machining tools away from using mass as a mechanism of stabilization?
21:56 < kanzure> I've not seen min-a-max, or tensegrity, or other weird architecture building thingies have as easy-to-use systems as "snap to fit stuff into place"
21:56 < kanzure> but I also have not been looking
21:56 < kanzure> (but I should start)
22:01 < fenn> eh, good luck
22:01 < fenn> the world is broken, as you may already know
22:01 < fenn> min-a-max would be useful for various machinery, yes
22:01 < fenn> machine tools in particular though i was planning on the stewart platform
22:02 < fenn> which is based on the same octahedral geometry
22:03 < fenn> i guess once the toolchain is in place (generative functional-constraint cad program) it will end up being made out of min-a-max components most likely
22:07 < kanzure> when I look at stewart platforms, it doesn't look like the same octahedral min-a-max geometry
22:12 < fenn> do you see the octahedral frame? http://www.mel.nist.gov/galleryph/intelsys/images/hxpro1.jpg
22:12 < gene> min a max?
22:12 < fenn> the idea is that frame (blue stuff) would be made from min-a-max components
22:13 < fenn> min-a-max nodes can do other geometry besides octahedrons as well
22:13 < fenn> gene: a shape grammar system for architecture http://radio.weblogs.com/0119080/images/MinAMax/uns6.jpg
22:14 < gene> I've seen that somewhere
22:14 < gene> I forget where
22:14 < fenn> in the link from 21:51?
22:14 < gene> no
22:15 < gene> looked at that
22:15 < gene> oh yeah
22:15 < gene> I remeber
22:15 < gene> some IRL building
22:15 < fenn> they sort of remind me of some snap-fit toys i had as a kid
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22:21 < fenn> fwiw snap-fit is infinitely superior to press-fit construction
22:22 < fenn> the restoring force drives the assembly back into its ideal configuration, rather than just holding it still
22:23 < gene> both suck in comparison to screws
22:23 < fenn> so you get negative feedback vs integrating over the total misalignment
22:23 < fenn> screws are easy to disassemble, but snap-fit doesn't have to be difficult to disassemble
22:24 < fenn> the laser cutter people can't figure out how to do snap-fit construction
22:24 < fenn> but that doesn't mean we're stuck with press-fit
22:25 < kanzure> does snap-fit work with metals?
22:25 < kanzure> doesn't the material have to be elastic?
22:26 < fenn> yes
22:26 < fenn> my motorcycle has plastic panels with nubs that snap into rubber grommets in the metal frame
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22:27 < kanzure> so it snaps into the rubber, not the metal
22:27 < fenn> there are a lot of electronic connectors based on snap-fit beryllium copper
22:27 < fenn> and "snaps" like on jackets
22:27 < kanzure> I remember looking over USB, but I don't remember what type it is
22:28 < kanzure> ethernet/ RCJ 45 is snap-fit, I know that much
22:28 < kanzure> RJ 45
22:28 < fenn> that's the plastic flexing though
22:28 < kanzure> not snapping?
22:28 < fenn> and really it's more of a lock than snap-fit
22:28 < gene> hmmm... show me some good examples of snapfit
22:28 < fenn> i'm not your fucking engineering professor
22:28 < kanzure> then who is?
22:28 < kanzure> because these clowns aren't
22:29 < gene> can you do really high precision stuff that can easily disassemble with snap fit?
22:29 < kanzure> in snap fit, the idea is that as you force something into some socket, it deforms, and then once it gets past a certain points, it 'bounces' back but by that time it's locked
22:29 < kanzure> however doesn't that mean that one degree of motion or something would be used for de-snapfitting?
22:30 < kanzure> is lego a good example of snap fit?
22:30 < fenn> no
22:30 < kanzure> http://www.seasteading.org/interact/forums/engineering/structure-designs/small-snap-fit-parts-easy-seastead-construction 
22:30 < fenn> well, the little roll pins maybe
22:31 < fenn> lego bricks are press fit
22:31 < fenn> keep in mind that people are sloppy with terminology
22:31 < fenn> in fact i just made up these terms snap fit and press fit
22:31 < kanzure> are you sure? because I've been seeing those terms all day
22:32 < kanzure> http://www2.basf.us/businesses/plasticportal/images/pic_tools_snap.jpg <-- snap fit?
22:33 < fenn> you know, pirates used to have a supersition that nails would interact with the earth's magnetic field and pull you to the bottom of the ocean, so they made entire ships all with interlocking peg construction
22:33 < fenn> or maybe it was just that it would interfere with the compass, but whatever
22:33 < kanzure> heh, superstitions leading to coincidentially good design strategies
22:34 < kanzure> snap fits seem to only be for plastics
22:34 < kanzure> http://engr.bd.psu.edu/pkoch/plasticdesign/snap_design.htm
22:35 < fenn> because plastics are the only easily customizable shape material
22:35 < fenn> metal jacket snaps are the only counterexample i can think of
22:35 < fenn> snap rings are made of spring steel
22:36 < fenn> i doubt you've ever taken out a driveshaft
22:36 < fenn> not talking about the ones with holes that you use snap ring pliers on
22:37  * fenn prays for an engineering ontology to descend from heaven
22:38 < bkero> bakelite
22:38 < fenn> sorry, they're called "set rings"
22:40 < fenn> crx driveshaft: http://imagebin.org/43245
22:41 < fenn> bkero: all polymers are 'plastics' in my book
22:41 < fenn> even if they're brittle thermoset material like bakelite
22:42 < fenn> technically steel is a plastic material
22:43 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic
22:44 < kanzure> so, in the case of the min-a-max base to the stewart platform, why is that optimal?
22:45 < kanzure> and what type of fits/joints were being used there?
22:46 < kanzure> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tensegrity_Dome.jpg  how much load could this take?
22:46 < kanzure> are these at all 'parametrically defined' ?
22:47 < fenn> there are different ways to make the joints; i dont really like the way pearce does it with the smooshed metal inserted into a slotted cylinder
22:48 < fenn> geodesic domes are by definition parametrically defined
22:48 < fenn> diameter, frequency
22:48 < kanzure> so it's peg-in-hole 
22:49 < fenn> no
22:49 < kanzure> smooshed metal inserted into a slotted cylinder?
22:49 < fenn> http://radio.weblogs.com/0119080/images/MinAMax/joint.gif is what i'm referring to
22:49 < fenn> i think that looks like crap
22:51 < fenn> here is a neater way, but more involved construction http://challenge.bfi.org/application_summary/66
22:51 < fenn> argh fucking javascript bullshit
22:52 < fenn> well you get the idea
22:52 < fenn> http://challenge.bfi.org/sites/challenge.bfi.org/files/IMGP1245.jpg
22:52 < kanzure> I figure it might be worthless if the only thing that I can get out of the shape grammar for splitting up a design into connectable puzzle pieces
22:53 < kanzure> but if there's some incentive like support frames for non-mass-'anchored' cnc machines
22:53 < kanzure> or other possible tools, then that sounds like something worth doing
22:53 < gene> smooshed metal into sloted cylinder = cheap
22:54 < fenn> not convinced
22:54 < fenn> the other thing is also just stamped metal
22:57 < gene> I wonder, how big would a subunit have to be for a fullair
23:01 < fenn> the trend is that smaller subunits have higher performance ratio than larger ones
23:01 < fenn> once you get past a certain dome frequency (3 i think) you start to have to worry about making a truss frame
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23:01 < fenn> or the sphere will dimple
23:03 < gene> http://www.zenoli.net/2007/01/geodesic-origami/
23:03 < gene> hmmmm...
23:03 < gene> yeah
23:03 < fenn> i did something like that in college
23:03 < fenn> mine wasnt nearly as cool though
23:03 < fenn> same colors even
23:05 < fenn> cool - apt-cache show dome
23:17 < gene> http://www.airshiptg.org/businessscienceoverview.htm
23:17 < gene> this might actually make sense if electric cars take off
23:18 < bkero> protip: Heavy steel objects are not conductive to flying well
23:18 < gene> who needs an electric motor connected to a driveshaft connected to a wheel
23:19 < gene> when you can have a ball that is a motor
23:19 < gene> well it
23:19 < gene> doesn't fly
23:21 < gene> and if you getting spinning fast enough, you might be able to make it so it can dislodge any ferromagnetic objects
23:22 < bkero> You can probably get a VW Lupo tuned right to do 100mph, seat 4, and have 10 CuL of storage
23:23 < gene> ???
23:25 < bkero> For the PI-AXP
23:28 < fenn> can't quite tell if it's serious or not
23:29 < gene> PI-AXP?
23:30 < bkero> It's in the link
23:34 < kanzure> fenn didn't answer me :(
23:34 < kanzure> not that it's answerable.
23:36 < fenn> what was the question?
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23:45 < fenn> a min-a-max frame is a convenient place to mount machine components, that's all
23:46 < fenn> it's optimally convenient i guess
23:47 < fenn> i wish pythonocc would hurry up and get done
23:47 < fenn> the API i mean
23:49 < bkero> http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/03/google-launches-project-to-boost-python-performance-by-5x.ars
23:50 < fenn> JIT compiler, isnt that what psyco does?